More than one in 100 adults in the United States is in jail or prison

[LawnOven]

From the Washington Post:
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/02/28/ST2008022803016.html)
More than one in 100 adults in the United States is in jail or prison, an all-time high that is costing state governments nearly $50 billion a year and the federal government $5 billion more, according to a report released yesterday.That seems like a lot of people; doesn't that seem like a lot of people?


Sociologist James Q. Wilson (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/James+Q.+Wilson?tid=informline), who in the 1980s helped develop the "broken windows" theory that smaller crimes must be punished to deter more serious ones, agreed that sentences for some drug crimes were too long. However, Wilson disagreed that the rise in the U.S. prison population should be considered a cause for alarm: "The fact that we have a large prison population by itself is not a central problem because it has contributed to the extraordinary increase in public safety we have had in this country."Looking at the various crime statistics on Nation Master (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita)
it doesn't seem like the United States is a particularly safe place, when compared to other 1st world nations. So why are Americans so criminally inclined that over 1 in a hundred of us need to be behind bars, at this very moment, in order to experience "...the extraordinary increase in public safety we have had in this country"?

Is the US a safer place than it was 30 years or more, ago?

[Denver]

People can be in jail without being guilty of anything (they have yet to be judged).
People can be in prison without having been convicted of a violent crime.

I respect your question, and think the question of safety over time might be better answered if the statistics displayed were instead of people convicted of violent crimes.

[Professor Yaffle]

Apparently, the US has 25% of the world's incarcerated population (but only 5% of the world's population).

[Fnord]

The ratio is something like 10:991 (Inmate:Free), making for 1.009% of the population. Yep, that's more than 1 out of every 100, alright.

Is the US safer? Ask Marion Barry, former mayor of Washington, D.C., who once said, "Aside from the murders, DC has one of the lowest crime rates in the country."

I hope this answers your questions.

[Modified]

Is the US a safer place than it was 30 years or more, ago?

Yes. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

1976-2006 per capita:
Murder down 34%
Robbery down 25%
Burglary down 50%
Rape and assault rates are up a bit, but I expect that is due to higher reporting.

[LawnOven]

People can be in jail without being guilty of anything (they have yet to be judged).
People can be in prison without having been convicted of a violent crime.


If its made up largely of people sitting in the drunk tank, or waiting for trial, man, that still seems like a lot of people.

I respect your question, and think the question of safety over time might be better answered if the statistics displayed were instead of people convicted of violent crimes.

Oddly enough a convicted stat is missing from nation master for the United States; I think. Well I can't find it anyways.

[LawnOven]

The ratio is something like 10:991 (Inmate:Free), making for 1.009% of the population. Yep, that's more than 1 out of every 100, alright.

Is the US safer? Ask Marion Barry, former mayor of Washington, D.C., who once said, "Aside from the murders, DC has one of the lowest crime rates in the country."

I hope this answers your questions.

So why are Americans so criminally inclined that over 1 in a hundred of us need to be behind bars, at this very moment, in order to experience "...the extraordinary increase in public safety we have had in this country"?

;)

[drkitten]

People can be in jail without being guilty of anything (they have yet to be judged).
People can be in prison without having been convicted of a violent crime.

I respect your question, and think the question of safety over time might be better answered if the statistics displayed were instead of people convicted of violent crimes.

Unfortunately, that flies in the face of the "broken window" theory that is used as the justification for the ballooning prison population. The whole point of increased sentences for non-violent criminals is because the people who commit non-violent offenses (in the present) are the same people who will commit violent ones in the future unless suitably deterred. Similarly, the people who accept non-violent crime as part of their lives (by failure to report, investigate, prosecute, &c) are inevitably setting themselves up for the acceptance of violent crime.

Or so goes the theory.

Thus, it becomes good publlic policy to sentence people to lengthy prison terms for non-violent crimes because that will reduce the violent crime rate.

Or so goes the theory.

If you look at other violent crimes besides murder (e.g. Assaults per capita), the USA is still in the uncomforable position of too-close-to-the-top. For assaults, in particular, I think the USA is #8 in the world and the highest ranked industrialized country....

[drkitten]

So why are Americans so criminally inclined that over 1 in a hundred of us need to be behind bars, at this very moment, in order to experience "...the extraordinary increase in public safety we have had in this country"?


Too much coffee, not enough whisky. The Scots and Irish, as are well known, just drink too much and then get sleepy.....

[Professor Yaffle]

I was actually quite amazed when I looked up the stats. I expected the US to be substantially higher than the UK, but not by the amount that it is. Fom wiki:


Comparison with other countries
The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world at 737 persons imprisoned per 100,000[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_the_United_States#_note-7). A report released 2/28/08 indicates that in the United States more than 1 in 100 adults is now confined in an American jail or prison.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons_in_the_United_States#_note-8) It has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.[2] (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r188.pdf)
In 2006 the incarceration rate in England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) and Wales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales) is 139 persons imprisoned per 100,000 residents, while in Norway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway) it is 59 per 100,000 and in Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia) and France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) it is around 100 inmates per 100,000.


Part of the reason is not that the US jails so many more people, but rather that they jail them for longer and are less likely to be paroled early.

[LawnOven]

Yes. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

1976-2006 per capita:
Murder down 34%
Robbery down 25%
Burglary down 50%
Rape and assault rates are up a bit, but I expect that is due to higher reporting.

So I suppose then, are Americans inherently more criminally prone ,that is, within the scope or our laws; or are we just better at reporting crimes and keeping statistics?


It just seems like (again from the Washington post):
For instance, over the past two decades, state spending on corrections (adjusted for inflation) increased 127 percent; spending on higher education rose 21 percent. Five states -- Vermont (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Vermont?tid=informline), Michigan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Michigan?tid=informline), Oregon (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Oregon?tid=informline), Connecticut (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Connecticut?tid=informline) and Delaware (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Delaware?tid=informline) -- now spend as much as or more on corrections as on higher education. Locally, Maryland (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Maryland?tid=informline) is near the top, spending 74 cents on corrections for every dollar it spends on higher education. Virginia (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Virginia?tid=informline) spends 60 cents on the dollar.


...is a rather disturbing fact. Thats quite a bit of money, to keep people locked up;also they're not paying taxes. Perhaps how we dole out punishment some non-violent crimes should be reconsidered, out of necessity.

[LawnOven]

Part of the reason is not that the US jails so many more people, but rather that they jail them for longer and are less likely to be paroled early.

You would think then, that the relatively lenient punishments in other countries would lead to them having much higher crime rates; as those criminals are let out to strike again, and again!

Maybe Dr. Kitten is right, we don't drink enough whisky. :)

[Beerina]

So why are Americans so criminally inclined that over 1 in a hundred of us need to be behind bars, at this very moment, in order to experience "...the extraordinary increase in public safety we have had in this country"?

Is the US a safer place than it was 30 years or more, ago?

Apparently yes it is. Quite a bit safer.


In any case, the institutionalized theft of European socialized nations that redirects cash directly into the hands of the lower classes is without doubt responsible for lower crime rates there.

But it's not theft because a majority has defined it as not-theft, so your mileage may vary in the understanding of the situation.

[LawnOven]

In any case, the institutionalized theft of European socialized nations that redirects cash directly into the hands of the lower classes is without doubt responsible for lower crime rates there.

But it's not theft because a majority has defined it as not-theft, so your mileage may vary in the understanding of the situation.

Huh, thats an interesting claim, and take on the situation. :)

If what you say is true, would you, personally, place a higher value on control of you own assets than you do on the value of your own safety and that of fellow citizens?

[Darth Rotor]

But are the right 3 million in prison?

That's the more important question.

DR

[drkitten]

If what you say is true, would you, personally, place a higher value on control of you own assets than you do on the value of your own safety and that of fellow citizens?

Of course. I'm living in tax exile in the Seychelles, and it doesn't matter to me in the slightest if the unwashed lower orders kill and eat each other in the slums of Birmingham. In fact, I rather hope they do, because there are too many people in Birmingham anyway, and they lower the value of my real estate holdings there.

[LawnOven]

Of course. I'm living in tax exile in the Seychelles, and it doesn't matter to me in the slightest if the unwashed lower orders kill and eat each other in the slums of Birmingham. In fact, I rather hope they do, because there are too many people in Birmingham anyway, and they lower the value of my real estate holdings there.

Must be nice.

That made me laugh. For some reason I am reminded of Land of the Dead (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0418819/).

[balrog666]

From the Washington Post:
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/02/28/ST2008022803016.html)
That seems like a lot of people; doesn't that seem like a lot of people?


Looking at the various crime statistics on Nation Master (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita)
it doesn't seem like the United States is a particularly safe place, when compared to other 1st world nations. So why are Americans so criminally inclined that over 1 in a hundred of us need to be behind bars, at this very moment, in order to experience "...the extraordinary increase in public safety we have had in this country"?

Is the US a safer place than it was 30 years or more, ago?


I note that, from this data, crime-drug-offences (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_dru_off-crime-drug-offences),
that over half of the crimes committed in the USA are drug offenses.

Perhaps a more sensible drug policy of ending the incarceration of non-violent drug abusers would solve the prison overcrowding.

[NoZed Avenger]

. . . and yet the Marquis de Carabas walks free.

Is this justice?

[DanishDynamite]

The US system of thinking they can somehow incarcerate all "bad" people and their society will then we be super-duper, is idiotic.

Beyond belief, actually.

[WildCat]

And yet OJ still walks free... :mad:

[DanishDynamite]

And yet OJ still walks free... :mad:
Might this be a clue to there being slight problems in the US system?

[TragicMonkey]

The US system of thinking they can somehow incarcerate all "bad" people and their society will then we be super-duper, is idiotic.

Beyond belief, actually.

Do you have any evidence that any American actually thinks that, or are you just projecting?

What is it with Danes and their constant need to belittle their betters? Peninsula envy?

[DanishDynamite]

Do you have any evidence that any American actually thinks that, or are you just projecting?

What is it with Danes and their constant need to belittle their betters? Peninsula envy?
Irritation. Irritation and booze.

[Beerina]

Huh, thats an interesting claim, and take on the situation. :)

If what you say is true, would you, personally, place a higher value on control of you own assets than you do on the value of your own safety and that of fellow citizens?

Theft via confiscatory taxation is a lack of safety for your property.

Buying off the lower classes by stealing money to heave at them is hardly a respectable alternative position.

[Metullus]

Of course. I'm living in tax exile in the Seychelles, and it doesn't matter to me in the slightest if the unwashed lower orders kill and eat each other in the slums of Birmingham. In fact, I rather hope they do, because there are too many people in Birmingham anyway, and they lower the value of my real estate holdings there.Are you really in the Seychelles? I have visited there several times since 1981 (I was there when Michael Hoare and his rugby mercenaries staged their entertainment) and I believe it to be the most beautiful spot on earth.

Lucky you!

[plumjam]

I saw the Louis Theroux BBC documentary recently, about some high security prison in the US. From his interviews with many of the inmates it seemed like most of them accepted they would be back after release. Some of them, plus one prison guard, stated that (paraphrasing) in prison, society actually looks after them.. 3 decent meals a day, shelter, health care, access to some education etc..
The prospect of 'being free' in a society like the USA, for many of them, seemed a worse prospect than a high security prison.

Maybe that could be said of some other nations, particularly the lesser developed.

In the case of the USA it seems to me that crime and incarceration levels are kept so high due to a complex mix of rampant (**** you) individualism, consumerist capitalism, and the easy availability of guns.
Mainly individualism, though.

[geni]

Theft via confiscatory taxation is a lack of safety for your property.

Not remotely. It is the fee you pay for being part of that society which in most cases will include some level of attempt to protect your propertly and provide an enviroment in which you can aquire more property. If you find these terms unacceptable suceed in getting them chanaged or leave.

[DanishDynamite]

Theft via confiscatory taxation is a lack of safety for your property.
Get a grip. Taxation is not theft. See Constitution, for reference.
Buying off the lower classes by stealing money to heave at them is hardly a respectable alternative position.
Could you explain the above nonsense in terms normal people might understand?

[WildCat]

Might this be a clue to there being slight problems in the US system?
Yes, it's called the War on Drugs.

But OJ got off because the jury was dumb as a box of rocks.

[DanishDynamite]

Yes, it's called the War on Drugs.

But OJ got off because the jury was dumb as a box of rocks.
How many of the 1% of all adults in America currently in jail are there due to "The War on Drugs"?

[lionking]

Theft via confiscatory taxation is a lack of safety for your property.

Buying off the lower classes by stealing money to heave at them is hardly a respectable alternative position.
Anyone who equates taxation with theft is truly "on a floating island above the clouds". So where is this no-tax utopia?

[WildCat]

How many of the 1% of all adults in America currently in jail are there due to "The War on Drugs"?
Off the top of my head, about half of them are there for mere possession or for low-level selling. But many more are there because of the violence the illegal drug trade fuels. In particular from violent street gangs fighting each other for control of drug turf, their firepower paid for with drug profits.

[Rob Lister]

Off the top of my head, about half of them are there for mere possession or for low-level selling. But many more are there because of the violence the illegal drug trade fuels. In particular from violent street gangs fighting each other for control of drug turf, their firepower paid for with drug profits.

yea.

[DanishDynamite]

yea.So of the ca. 1.8 million adults currently in jail, at most 0,2 million is there for drug offenses. Do you find 11% is a significant part?

[WildCat]

So of the ca. 1.8 million adults currently in jail, at most 0,2 million is there for drug offenses. Do you find 11% is a significant part?
You've been drinking a long time tonight, yes? Maybe you should look again at that graph in the morning. ;)

[DanishDynamite]

You've been drinking a long time tonight, yes? Maybe you should look again at that graph in the morning. ;)
Which of my numbers do you feel is significantly inaccuarte?

[WildCat]

Which of my numbers do you feel is significantly inaccuarte?
First, I'm only getting ~1.2 million there, not 1.8.

Secondly, that graph is state prisons only so you get a lot of property crimes and violent crimes and other state crimes. Once you add the Federal prison data you'll see where the drug crimes really skew the results.

[casebro]

And don't forget the local jails, where all the misdemeanors are housed. Lots of low-level druggies in there.

Lessee, 1% of 300 million is 3 million, so half the prisoners are in local jails.

[dirtywick]

It's hard to say what's really going on. It could be there's simply more things you can go to jail for in the US than many parts of the world, and how strictly the laws are enforced. Law enforcement's stance on things like drunk driving, public intoxication, or a bag of weed has changed pretty drastically in the last 20 years in the US, let alone the last 50. Views on what constitutes domestic abuse, as well as awareness about it, is another good example. Has the rest of the world changed as well? I don't know.

Cultural differences are going to play a relevant role if you're comparing crime to other countries. Could be that maybe in England or whatever getting caught with a joint in your pocket or driving a little tipsy the cops don't care (or maybe they don't care in rural areas but crack down in urban areas?), or in Turkey or Spain it's cool to slap your wife in the mouth.

Again, I really wouldn't know, but those are things that you should keep in the back of your mind when you're looking at crime statistics and comparing them internationally.

-edit-

Forgot prostitution. Views on that are likely vastly different in many parts of the world.

[autumn1971]

Hey Beerina, do you agree, then, that when a portion of the fare paid by us working-class bus and subway riders is used to fund commuter trains for the upper-class, we have a right to go into your gated communities and take it back? Or is your class-warfare only allowed in one direction?

[jimbob]

A colleague poineted out that if your are comparing unemployment rates in different countries, it would be a good idea to include the prison population too.

What proportion of the working-age population is in prison in the US, and how much does that do to raise figures for "unemployed or in prison"?

[jimbob]

Hey Beerina, do you agree, then, that when a portion of the fare paid by us working-class bus and subway riders is used to fund commuter trains for the upper-class, we have a right to go into your gated communities and take it back? Or is your class-warfare only allowed in one direction?

No, because using political power to achieve economic aims is unfair. Whilst using economic power to achieve political ends is just the way it works...

...er I think that is how the argument seems to go.

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by WildCat
And yet OJ still walks free...

Might this be a clue to there being slight problems in the US system?

Compared to the perfect system where the guilty never go free and the innocent are never convicted? Where is that one?

Although the answer is actually no. I don't think you can ever point to a one case out of millions as indicating any significant problems.

[Rob Lister]

So of the ca. 1.8 million adults currently in jail, at most 0,2 million is there for drug offenses. Do you find 11% is a significant part?

I find anything greater than 1% a significant part, inasmuch as I don't think personal drug use should be a criminal offense. Regulated? Certainly. Taxed? Certainly. Criminal? Nope. That's just me.

[casebro]

Criminal-ism is just a growth segment of out economy. What with enforcement, judicial, and incarceration costs, our society is booming! Those deficient human beings that are in jail would probably be only minor participants in our economy otherwise- chronically unemployed dopers mostly. They do us more good in jail, where the cost of keeping them is a boon to us all.

how do I make half of a winking smiley? I'm about half serious. 1/ ;) ?

[The Gnomon]

So why are Americans so criminally inclined that over 1 in a hundred of us need to be behind bars, at this very moment, in order to experience "...the extraordinary increase in public safety we have had in this country"?

;)

Perhaps the increased public safety is DUE to the number behind bars.
Or does your question address "why are Americanrs (presumably USA) so criminally inclined?" That is, I think, the substantial question.
Breaking it down, we can ask two questions: "Are USA citizens more criminally inclined [than those of the rest of the western world]?" AND "If the answer to the first question is "yes," then why?
Addressing the first question: What does the pattern of criminality look like, when broken down by type of crime and demographics of criminals, and the distribution of crimes in the population. Is the "average USA citizen" more criminal? or are there just more criminals? is criminality distributed through the population in a "normal distribution" curve, or is the distribution skewed?
Is increased criminality or tolerance for criminality a generally distributed characteristic of USA citizens, or is it limited to a small group?

BTW-Most murders in urban areas appear to be related to drug turf wars; the "civilian" [non-drug dealers] have not experienced statistically an increase in victim risk for that crime.

[Darth Rotor]

I find anything greater than 1% a significant part, inasmuch as I don't think personal drug use should be a criminal offense. Regulated? Certainly. Taxed? Certainly. Criminal? Nope. That's just me.
Amen, Deacon.

DR

[Beerina]

Theft via confiscatory taxation is a lack of safety for your property.

Not remotely. It is the fee you pay for being part of that society

I am not talking about reasonable rates for the purpose of providing a general rule of law and protection of rights and the securing of property. That's just a fraction of the confiscatory rates I'm talking about.

Your post, and those of several others, demonstrate the evolutionary nature of ethics.

You believe in, and help build and buttress, the belief in the Goodness of the position that such tax rates are awesome, and are "the price you pay" to live in such a society. Yet that is not the case, and has nothing to do with such high tax rates.

What you actually mean is that "it's the price you pay to live in a society where the power hungry politicians lead the masses on cruscades as to how evil a certain segment of society is, and why I, the politician, should be authorized by you, the angry masses that I have stirred into anger, to take their stuff."

That's what you actually mean. The rest is just an ethical fascade used to assuage your own guilt in the mental model of reality you inhabit.

"I cannot be wrong. It has to be correct to mandate such high tax rates. It has to be ethical. It just has to be."

[Beerina]

Hey Beerina, do you agree, then, that when a portion of the fare paid by us working-class bus and subway riders is used to fund commuter trains for the upper-class, we have a right to go into your gated communities and take it back? Or is your class-warfare only allowed in one direction?

As I do not support government-funded mass transportation, I cannot even accept your premise, much less discuss your conclusion, presumably an attempt at reductio ad absurdum.

Taxation to fund public mass transit is a construct of the evolved ethical goodness of Producing Great Works, a circus politicians leap around in when seeking power. They produce an ongoing narrative to reinforce that the taking of taxes to produce Mighty Things is Ethical and Good. This is aided by the sub-narrative that The Rich have largely ill-gotten gains, or they need to pay Their Fair Share, or something.

[CFLarsen]

Off the top of my head, about half of them are there for mere possession or for low-level selling. But many more are there because of the violence the illegal drug trade fuels. In particular from violent street gangs fighting each other for control of drug turf, their firepower paid for with drug profits.

That sure does take the wind out of this "Law-abiding citizens need guns to protect themselves against criminals" argument.

No, I'm not looking for a response. Just think about what you just said.

[Segnosaur]

Here's a suggestion... if you want to find out what country is safer, you might want to consider how many people are victims.

The United Nations 2001 human development report generated some statistics where, instead of looking at the number of incarcerations, police records, etc., they looked at the number of people who were actually victims.

From their statistics... % of the population that were victims of some crime:
United States: 21%
Canada: 24%
Denmark: 23%
England: 26%
Sweden: 25%
(From: http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/global/hdr2001/ , see page 208, appendix 20.)

So suprisingly, when you consider all "victim"' crimes, the situation in the U.S. is not really all that bad.

Now, the U.S. does have a higher murder rate than those other countries (and yes, murder is the most serious of all crimes); however, that doesn't mean that getting robbed or assaulted is a good thing either (and lets face it, even in the U.S. murder still accounts for only a small fraction of all crimes.)

[Soapy Sam]

I once read (probably Wikipedia) that the USA has 7% of the world's population and 70% of its lawyers.
Now- if it also has the highest national %age of convicts, I wonder which is cause and which is effect?

[Jeff Corey]

Also considering that "criminal lawyer" might be redundant.

[LawnOven]

Theft via confiscatory taxation is a lack of safety for your property.

Buying off the lower classes by stealing money to heave at them is hardly a respectable alternative position.

I think it was pretty clear I meant safety for your being. Why are you not answering the question like I imposed the the particulars of the scenario on you? It was your claim.

If I was left with those two options state theft, or theft by crazy bum, or desperate poor person with a gun; I guess I would choose the state. If its going to happen anyways it just seems cleaner that way.

[CFLarsen]

Here's a suggestion... if you want to find out what country is safer, you might want to consider how many people are victims.

The United Nations 2001 human development report generated some statistics where, instead of looking at the number of incarcerations, police records, etc., they looked at the number of people who were actually victims.

From their statistics... % of the population that were victims of some crime:
United States: 21%
Canada: 24%
Denmark: 23%
England: 26%
Sweden: 25%
(From: http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/global/hdr2001/ , see page 208, appendix 20.)

So suprisingly, when you consider all "victim"' crimes, the situation in the U.S. is not really all that bad.

Now, the U.S. does have a higher murder rate than those other countries (and yes, murder is the most serious of all crimes); however, that doesn't mean that getting robbed or assaulted is a good thing either (and lets face it, even in the U.S. murder still accounts for only a small fraction of all crimes.)

That depends a lot on what crime it is. E.g., due to our penchant for bicycles (I don't know anyone who doesn't have at least one bike), Denmark has a lot of bike thefts. While decidedly unsafe for bikes, it doesn't make us feel as if we live in a crime-ridden society.

Murder, on the other hand, is another thing: It is simply not tolerated. We have very few murders and extremely few unsolved murders. Bad idea to commit murder in Denmark - count on getting caught.

[Polaris]

Post deleted

[Fnord]

Maybe Dr. Kitten is right, we don't drink enough whisky. :)

If only we had some decent whisky (note correct spelling) in the US, instead of that skunk whiz that Kentucky / Tennessee call "whiskey".

Messrs. Beam and Walker have nothing on William Grant & Sons (http://www.glenfiddich.com/lda.html?redirect=/index.html).

[jimbob]

Fnord, don't you mean Lagavulin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagavulin_Single_Malt). ;)

[BPSCG]

Lessee, 1% of 300 million is 3 million, so half the prisoners are in local jails.It's one percent of the adult population that's behind bars. Three hundred million is the total population of the U.S., including minors.

[Fnord]

Fnord, don't you mean Lagavulin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagavulin_Single_Malt). ;)

Ahh... another fine breed with an impressive pedigree!

American "whiskey" is to Scots whisky as American lager is to Irish ale (Think Coors Lite versus Guinness Stout).

[jimbob]

I am not familiar with bourbon, but I do know that many of the casks go to a good place....

[Cuddles]

Cultural differences are going to play a relevant role if you're comparing crime to other countries. Could be that maybe in England or whatever getting caught with a joint in your pocket or driving a little tipsy the cops don't care (or maybe they don't care in rural areas but crack down in urban areas?), or in Turkey or Spain it's cool to slap your wife in the mouth.

I think this is probably the most important point. While I can't pretend to know the details of any legal system, there are some obvious generalisations. In the UK, getting caught with small amounts of pretty much any drug is unlikely to put you in jail. Some of the harder drugs may get you taken down the station and maybe a warning, possesion of a small amount of weed isn't even a criminal offence. The idea is very much to target the dealers while trying to help the useres rather than punish them. There is, of course, debate over how effective the various different approaches are, but there can be no argument that the UK approach results in far less people spending time in prison, and those that do spend far less time in there.

I think the attitude to drink driving is different as well. It is not tolerated in the UK any more than in the US, but the punishment is different. In the UK, drink driving won't put you in jail unless you actually hurt someone, or do substantial damage to property. Simply getting caught will result in a fine and points on your license, and will end up with you losing your license, but almost never in jail.

When it comes down to it, the UK has one of the higher prison populations, certainly in the West, but there does seem to be a big difference in attitude between the US and most other places. It seems that in the US, jail is almost the default punishment, even if only for a short time, while most other countries view it more as a last resort, or only for specific crimes.

[Polaris]

Ahh... another fine breed with an impressive pedigree!

American "whiskey" is to Scots whisky as American lager is to Irish ale (Think Coors Lite versus Guinness Stout).

Lower the price a little bit and you'd have more afficianados. Why pay $100+ for a bottle of Craggenmore when I can buy almost twice the amount of Jim Beam for $30?

And I take it you've never had Yuengling lager.

[Fnord]

Lower the price a little bit and you'd have more afficianados. Why pay $100+ for a bottle of Craggenmore when I can buy almost twice the amount of Jim Beam for $30?

And I take it you've never had Yuengling lager.


Sorry, no. I'm more into stouts than lagers, anyway.

{ahem}

Golly, isn't it a shame that there are so many American in prison?

[Björn Toulouse]

Percentage would be higher if the report included marriage.:rolleyes:

[CFLarsen]

Lower the price a little bit and you'd have more afficianados. Why pay $100+ for a bottle of Craggenmore when I can buy almost twice the amount of Jim Beam for $30?

You are not paying $100+ for a bottle of Cragganmore (12Y), are you?

I know the dollar sucks, but....

[luchog]

Lower the price a little bit and you'd have more afficianados. Why pay $100+ for a bottle of Craggenmore when I can buy almost twice the amount of Jim Beam for $30?
Yeah, and Koolaid with Everclear is only $15 bucks a bottle, and only slightly less unpleasant than Jim Beam or Jack Daniels. There is a very good reason for the subsantial price difference, one that I can certainly taste even with my uneducated palatte.
[quote]
And I take it you've never had Yuengling lager.
Unfortunately, I had the lack of sense to actual drink the stuff once. Once.

I'll stick with my Trappist ales, Bavarian Hefeweizens, and Pacific Northwest microbrewery India Pale Ales.

[Cainkane1]

From the Washington Post:
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/02/28/ST2008022803016.html)
That seems like a lot of people; doesn't that seem like a lot of people?


Looking at the various crime statistics on Nation Master (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita)
it doesn't seem like the United States is a particularly safe place, when compared to other 1st world nations. So why are Americans so criminally inclined that over 1 in a hundred of us need to be behind bars, at this very moment, in order to experience "...the extraordinary increase in public safety we have had in this country"?

Is the US a safer place than it was 30 years or more, ago?
The freer the society the higher the crime rate. Constitutional Republics like the USA give the criminal element the wrong idea and they have it in their head that they can do what they want to. They commit a crime and go to jail.

[Polaris]

[QUOTE=Polaris;3498980]Lower the price a little bit and you'd have more afficianados. Why pay $100+ for a bottle of Craggenmore when I can buy almost twice the amount of Jim Beam for $30?
Yeah, and Koolaid with Everclear is only $15 bucks a bottle, and only slightly less unpleasant than Jim Beam or Jack Daniels. There is a very good reason for the subsantial price difference, one that I can certainly taste even with my uneducated palatte.

Unfortunately, I had the lack of sense to actual drink the stuff once. Once.
I'll stick with my Trappist ales, Bavarian Hefeweizens, and Pacific Northwest microbrewery India Pale Ales.

Ok, I know never to ask you for suggestions regarding strong drink.

And for my money there's no bottle of booze worth more than $45. Yeah there's a difference but it's not worth a 75+% increase in price. I like to drink, but I'm no snob.

You are not paying $100+ for a bottle of Cragganmore (12Y), are you?

I know the dollar sucks, but....

I only buy it duty-free.

Per the thread focus - we should just execute all the violent offenders and thieves and legalize all drugs and pardon all drug offenders. That's my solution, and it's as good as anybody else's on this thread because nothing's going to change.

[Segnosaur]

The United Nations 2001 human development report generated some statistics where, instead of looking at the number of incarcerations, police records, etc., they looked at the number of people who were actually victims.

From their statistics... % of the population that were victims of some crime:
United States: 21%
Denmark: 23%
(From: http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/global/hdr2001/ , see page 208, appendix 20.)

That depends a lot on what crime it is. E.g., due to our penchant for bicycles (I don't know anyone who doesn't have at least one bike), Denmark has a lot of bike thefts. While decidedly unsafe for bikes, it doesn't make us feel as if we live in a crime-ridden society.

Actually, its not just bike thefts...if you look at the data, a higher percentage of people in Denmark are victims of assault, and the rate of sexual assault is the same in Denmark and the U.S.

You're right... you shouldn't feel as if you live in a 'crime-ridden' society. But then, that wasn't the issue here. The issue here is whether higher rates of incarceration (as they have in the U.S.) can lead to a 'safer' society.

Murder, on the other hand, is another thing: It is simply not tolerated. We have very few murders and extremely few unsolved murders. Bad idea to commit murder in Denmark - count on getting caught.

You're right... murder is worse than theft. Also worse than assault. Given a choice, I'd rather be robbed or assaulted rather than killed. Still, given a choice, I'd rather not be killed, robbed OR assaulted. The U.S. murder rate is bad, but the number of people affected by it still pales in comparison to other crimes.

Of course, this does bring up the philosophical issue... just how much is a 'murder' worth when compared to other crimes? What if you could prevent 1 murder, but it would mean that one hundred people in your country would be assaulted or sexually assaulted, would it be worth it? What about 1 thousand people? Or 1 million?