Interesting Scientology Sites

[Bill Hall]

Scientology continues to fascinate me. As I surf the Internet I feel like a sociologist who has stumbled on a strange and complex hidden world. Some day movies will be made from such books as Paulette Cooper’s “The Scandal of Scientology” and Russell Miller’s “Bare-Faced Messiah”.

I am too new to the forums to post working links, but perhaps others can post links to the sites they think provide the best material for those exploring the Scientology phenomenon. I will start by citing the “Ex Scientologist Message Board” (forum. exscn. net). I stumbled across this site recently and it strikes me as a worthy forum for productive dialogs on many facets of Scientology.

[Kopji]

Welcome!
If you do a search on 'xenu' or 'clambake' you will find the most popular ones. Some cults tug at me in a scary way like a recurring nightmare, but Scientology isn't one of them. The advice of L Ron is just too funny for me to take seriously, like watching Godzilla.

I don't deny that there are many who struggle to escape though.

I tend to like ex-Scientolgists like I like ex-Mormons, they generally make pretty good critical thinkers. Chatting with Scientoligists is sometimes a bit like reading a programming language. I can only imagine the delights awaiting an obsessive compulsive person.

I'd advocate treating members in a 'lively yet friendly' manner, cause you never know when they will pack up and leave for more skeptical parts.

[jimtron]

Wikipedia has a bunch of good articles, here are a few:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera_in_Scientology_scripture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard

The discussion pages for the above articles are interesting to read.

Also http://www.xenu.net is a big one.

[Gazpacho]

The Fishman Deposition (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Scientology%3A+Steven+Fishman+Deposi tion).

Every minute is worth it. I promise.

[Wildy]

The Jesse Prince Tapes (http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/jesse_tapes.html#one).

You will have quite a lot to read.

[antennafarm]

Welcome!
If you do a search on 'xenu' or 'clambake' you will find the most popular ones. Some cults tug at me in a scary way like a recurring nightmare, but Scientology isn't one of them. The advice of L Ron is just too funny for me to take seriously, like watching Godzilla.


Really, Scientology isn't so far out that it's different than the usual space freak pseudo-religions -- until you get to the actions of the CoS. Then it gets plain scary in a Mafia sort of way.

[Tanstaafl]

More newbies, excellent!

Welcome Bill Hall and antennafarm.

And do you in fact have an antenna farm growing in the back yard? At the moment I only have a couple of inverted vees, which I don't think really qualifies.

[Bill Hall]

Dr. David Touretzky has some good links at the bottom of his home page: www cs cmu edu /~dst/ (you know where the dots go). Dr. Touretsky does well in interviews.

I’m going to do several of these short posts to get my posting count up so I can start embedding live links.

[Bill Hall]

Kopji, thanks for the welcome! Yes, xenu dot net is a treasure trove of material and ww xenutv dot com has lots of interesting audio/video material.

I have never “researched” (a.k.a., surfed the Web) as much on a topic as I have with Scientology. My knowledge about such topics as the Branch Davidians, People’s Temple, Unification Church, etc., is at the level one gets from the popular press, so I really can‘t compare/contrast them with Scientology. I find Scientology a fascinating and compelling topic for several reasons:

- The controversial history with the IRS.
- The recruitment of high-profile parishioners.
- The infiltration of the government.
- The use/abuse of the judicial system.
- The use of satellite organizations for recruitment.
- The campaign to “obliterate” psychiatry.
- The attempts to influence the public education system.
- The synthesis as a business/religion.
- The attack-dog, vindictive approach to criticism.
- The tension between remaining secretive while desiring to influence the public domain.
- The “war” on the Internet between Scientology and its critics.

The “space opera” aspects of the belief system are almost incidental details to me compared to the above topics.

[Bill Hall]

Jimtron, thanks for the links! I also like the “Best Answer” response to the question “is Scientology a dangerous cult” posed by “Erin W” at answers dot yahoo dot com. I just don’t have the energy to fake the entire long URL here. Just do a search at the answers dot yahoo dot com site.

[Bill Hall]

Gazpacho, I too found the Fishman Deposition videos enthralling. I watched all 3 hours! I also read parts of his “Lonesome Squirrel” Internet book in conjunction with the videos. I thought it was interesting how he was trying to subvert and cooperate with his psychiatrist and lawyer at the same time. I wonder if the “Holy Book of Life” will ever be published in some manner. I hope it says more than “All work and no play makes Steve a dull boy” thousands of times!

[Bill Hall]

Wildy, thanks for the link! Mr. Wollersheim is another interesting player in this drama. I have gone to factnet dot org before, but was unfamiliar with Mr. Prince, even though he was apparently second-in-command of Scientology. “Quite a lot to read” is an understatement! So much to learn, so little time. I wonder if/when we will start hearing from Mr. Rinder now that he has supposedly “blown”. I wonder when I will reach burnout on this topic...

[Bill Hall]

Tanstaafl, thanks for the welcome!

[Wildy]

Wildy, thanks for the link! Mr. Wollersheim is another interesting player in this drama. I have gone to factnet dot org before, but was unfamiliar with Mr. Prince, even though he was apparently second-in-command of Scientology. “Quite a lot to read” is an understatement! So much to learn, so little time. I wonder if/when we will start hearing from Mr. Rinder now that he has supposedly “blown”. I wonder when I will reach burnout on this topic...

Sooner or later, then you will stop for a bit and then after a certain amount of time when something relevant happens you will be interested again.

[rex]

An article in the Los Angeles Times reports on $cientology vs the Internet, including mention of a new site for young ex-members that was launched last week, http://www.exscientologykids.com, by three women who have left Co$:


http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/newmedia/la-et-scientology3mar03,0,4668513,full.story

[antennafarm]

More newbies, excellent!

Welcome Bill Hall and antennafarm.

And do you in fact have an antenna farm growing in the back yard? At the moment I only have a couple of inverted vees, which I don't think really qualifies.


If only! I think the Army'd have issues with me putting in anything up on post. :)

[Kilgore Trout]

An article in the Los Angeles Times reports on $cientology vs the Internet, including mention of a new site for young ex-members that was launched last week, http://www.exscientologykids.com, by three women who have left Co$:


http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/newmedia/la-et-scientology3mar03,0,4668513,full.story

Wow, great site. I'd seen Astra Woodcraft's interviews recently on xenutv.com and now reading Kendra Wiseman's story is equally as fascinating (and both frustrating and heart warming). And then Miscavige's niece speaks out about disconnects... My heart goes out to all those kids that escape Scientology. They seem especially vulnerable and put in an awful position. Hearing the success stories is wonderful though.

[Kilgore Trout]

[...] Some day movies will be made from such books as Paulette Cooper’s “The Scandal of Scientology” and Russell Miller’s “Bare-Faced Messiah”. [...]

Although not of those books, movies have been made. One is The Bridge (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0907842/), found on xenutv.com (http://www.xenutv.com/bridge/index.html) and is about a woman becoming a Clear. Critically, it's certainly no Hollywood blockbuster, but fascinating and the story is gripping. Curiously, the seemingly bad acting may really be just representative of real Scientologists in Orgs.

The other movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0277255/) is The Profit (http://www.theprofit.org/). A legal injunction by The Church of Scientology prevents it from release, however. The preview scene available on the official site is quite enticing.

[Bill Hall]

Sooner or later, then you will stop for a bit and then after a certain amount of time when something relevant happens you will be interested again.

I think you are exactly right!

I was frustrated for a while. I had spent all this time "researching" Scientology on the Internet, but I had no one to chat with about it. I then stumbled on the Ex-Scientologist Message Board (www dot forum dot exscn dot net) and I have been able to satisfy my urge to explore issues with folks with a variety of opinions and who seem knowledgeable and willing to share and discuss.

[Bill Hall]

...movies have been made. One is...The Bridge...The other movie...The Profit...

I watched “The Bridge” and thought it was well done, all things considered. There were several poignant moments for me. I thought its quiet, documentary style (without commentary) was effective.

I hope the “The Profit” eventually gets released. Certainly much “flashier” than “The Bridge”. My understanding is that the injunction is no longer in effect. The injunction was supposedly to prevent contamination of the Lisa McPherson civil suit jury pool. Since the civil suit was settled in 2005 the injunction should be over. I think Bob Minton provided funds for the movie and gained the rights to the movie. There was some kind of fallout with others (involved with the movie?) and supposedly Bob is the one now preventing the movie from being shown. I’ve read various accounts where Bob is portrayed as a “turncoat” and as someone who has been betrayed. Obviously I’m not in the know, but it certainly sounds like a sorry situation one way or the other. Too bad. Folks certainly seem to go through the wringer a lot when they tangle with the CoS. This has got to stop at some point (I hope). Too many people are becoming aware of the games being played by the CoS and I think it will start affecting their bottom line.

[God Remixed]

I can't wait for the March 15th protest.. I've been keeping up with Xenutv1 on youtube who is the creator of the xenutv website. Mark Bunker is an amazing guy.

[Wildy]

I wonder if it is worldwide again?

[Kilgore Trout]

Wise Beard Man is indeed wise. :)

And it is worldwide. There's no localization to Anonymous.. The only barrier might be language, and there are some trying to translate things into other languages.

What will be interesting to see is how Scientology deals with it. I think the first protest, even announced, caught them a little surprised. They know what to expect come March 15th. I recently read that some suspect Scientologists might try to pose as Anonymous to try and make things seem less than peaceful.

[Wildy]

I know it's not localised.

All I'm wondering is if someone has organised another picket in Adelaide.

[Wildy]

Now that I bother to look around I see there is. I don't know whether to go and watch or get a mask and join in.

[Deus Ex Machina]

http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb - operation clambake one of the ost critical of sites - has an awesome amount of data.

http://exscientologykids.com/eskforums/index.php - a new forum started by three women who grew up as scientologists

http://www.forum.exscn.net/index.php - the ex-Scientologists forum, been around for about a year.

You can also ask me - I was in it for 13 years, not only in it, but in its most fanatical part, the Sea Organization.

And yes, I have worked with Miscavige

[Memento_mori]

Scientology continues to fascinate me.

Bill, I can't post links yet, but if you google Penthouse L. Ron Jr.
you'll see the site lermanet.com and it's under /scientologynews, hit
the 1980's link, then find the Penthouse link of June 1983.


I was a member of the CO$ for nearly 20 years. Suffice it to say, I had more than a casual familiarity with their technology and tactics. I trained directly under Hubbard. I left many years ago. The 1983 interview of Ron Jr. is the most accurate and honest account I have seen, and I have seen them all. One could say he was only trying to extort money and was willing to sell his silence, which he eventually did. No harm, no foul. This is a must read.

[Bill Hall]

Bill, I can't post links yet, but if you google Penthouse L. Ron Jr.
you'll see the site lermanet.com and it's under /scientologynews, hit
the 1980's link, then find the Penthouse link of June 1983.


Memento_mori, thanks for the tip. Haven't read it yet, but will. I think I have finally developed the power to post live links. Here's the one you mention:

http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/penthouse-LRonHubbardJr-interview-1983.htm

[Memento_mori]

I think I have finally developed the power to post live links. Here's the one you mention:

very cool. how much did that power cost ya??

[FSM]

http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb - operation clambake one of the ost critical of sites - has an awesome amount of data.

http://exscientologykids.com/eskforums/index.php - a new forum started by three women who grew up as scientologists

http://www.forum.exscn.net/index.php - the ex-Scientologists forum, been around for about a year.

You can also ask me - I was in it for 13 years, not only in it, but in its most fanatical part, the Sea Organization.

And yes, I have worked with Miscavige


Hey Deus, I always knew you as a guy with one of the coolest screennames around, but I never knew you were in Co$. Congrats for getting out and thanks for sharing that info with everyone. Did you ever experience some of the things that Co$ is now disavowing ever happens in the cult like disconnection, fair game, and the RPF's RPF? (if you feel comfortable answering.)

I also thought I'd let you guys know in this thread if you didn't already hear that Shawn Lonsdale, a critic in Clearwater was found dead two weeks ago in his home in an 'apparent' suicide. The other thread on it at JREF is here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=106807)

[FSM]

very cool. how much did that power cost ya??

I'd pay double that to learn how to make an ashtray move on its own. ;)

[Memento_mori]

I'd pay double that to learn how to make an ashtray move on its own. ;)

Funny you should mention that. I can teach you that, but it's quite a bit more upper level than you could handle now. First, you gotta get off all your crimes and sexual perversions in session. Then we can do the ashtray processes. A few hundred hours, give of take - max, unless other stuff comes up. You should also probably get some training so you can handle things a bit better on the way. Do you have all the books, tapes and cd's you need? Let me show you some of this stuff, it's so cool. Ya.

[-=Vagrant=-]

The Anon protests will be global. There's one even in Finland, so you better participate in your nearest protest.

[Bill Hall]

I think I have finally developed the power to post live links. Here's the one you mention:

very cool. how much did that power cost ya??

Nothing! It came to me in a flash after my 15th post.

[Wildy]

Well in your case it cost you 15 posts of knowledge. Had you gone to "humor" you would have saved plenty of knowledge which you could use to get further towards an avatar.

[FSM]

Funny you should mention that. I can teach you that, but it's quite a bit more upper level than you could handle now. First, you gotta get off all your crimes and sexual perversions in session. Then we can do the ashtray processes. A few hundred hours, give of take - max, unless other stuff comes up. You should also probably get some training so you can handle things a bit better on the way. Do you have all the books, tapes and cd's you need? Let me show you some of this stuff, it's so cool. Ya.

Wow. Sounds good! The check is in the mail, man. Because really, I've been wanting to include ashtray moving in my spiritual process for quite some time. Now, if you could only teach me to raise my IQ, and to 'communicate' better as well...

[Bill Hall]

Well in your case it cost you 15 posts of knowledge. Had you gone to "humor" you would have saved plenty of knowledge which you could use to get further towards an avatar.

You mean there is more to look forward to? I didn't know all this yet I still joined the forum! When the time comes I will try to choose an avatar that doesn't need to be scrolled off the page to prevent seizures. :)

[Kilgore Trout]

You mean there is more to look forward to? I didn't know all this yet I still joined the forum! When the time comes I will try to choose an avatar that doesn't need to be scrolled off the page to prevent seizures. :)

Then you've clearly missed the entire point of avatars. Whether it is from extensive use of flashing animation, a subtle "what was that?" out-of-the-corner-of-your-eye, or just disturbing imagery, seizures of some kind or another are the main, if not only, purpose of the avatar.

[Bill Hall]

Then you've clearly missed the entire point of avatars. Whether it is from extensive use of flashing animation, a subtle "what was that?" out-of-the-corner-of-your-eye, or just disturbing imagery, seizures of some kind or another are the main, if not only, purpose of the avatar.

Are there any that induce folks to send money?

[vexed]

The Fishman Deposition (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Scientology%3A+Steven+Fishman+Deposi tion).

Every minute is worth it. I promise.

Indeed it is, excellent link.

[Kilgore Trout]

Are there any that induce folks to send money?

Maybe Hubbard's handwritten OTIII material as an avatar? Wait.. That might end up only getting you sued and you'd be the one sending money. But I bet it'll still result in seizures.

[Bill Hall]

The Fishman Deposition (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Scientology%3A+Steven+Fishman+Deposi tion).

Every minute is worth it. I promise.

Does anyone know if Mr. Fishman continues to exteriorize and see through walls?

[Apology]

A Piece of Blue Sky, by Jon Atack, available in full, on-line, for free, here:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/atack/contents.htm

Also, Lonesome Squirrel by Steve Fishman, available in full, online, free, here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fishman/ls/indexls.html

[Kilgore Trout]

Does anyone know if Mr. Fishman continues to exteriorize and see through walls?

I don't know what he is up to lately, but last I've seen written by and of him, he was helped greatly by his psychologist and several former Scientologists and seems to be thinking quite clearly for himself.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Hey Deus, I always knew you as a guy with one of the coolest screennames around, but I never knew you were in Co$. Congrats for getting out and thanks for sharing that info with everyone. Did you ever experience some of the things that Co$ is now disavowing ever happens in the cult like disconnection, fair game, and the RPF's RPF? (if you feel comfortable answering.)

I also thought I'd let you guys know in this thread if you didn't already hear that Shawn Lonsdale, a critic in Clearwater was found dead two weeks ago in his home in an 'apparent' suicide. The other thread on it at JREF is here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=106807)

HI FSM! - You realize, I suppose that FSM is a big acronym in Scientology?

To answer your question - I did the RPF and the RPF's RPF in 1985-86 and my own personal experience is nowhere near as awful as other peoples'. Our elder son, who went back in, disconnected from us on Christmas Eve 8 years ago - he has, we have found out out from others, got married and has a son. We have never met our daughter in law or our grandson and do not even have a photograph of them. If that sounds like it sucks big time - it does.

If anyone reading this thread has any doubt at all whether Scientology destroys families deliberately - feel free to contact me.

[Confuseling]

That's truly awful - I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say you have our sincerest sympathies, for whatever that's worth.

May I ask you what your impression of the Anonymous thing is? Some people seem to think the COS might actually crack under a little more pressure, and allow the philosophy and religion to reformulate themselves in a more humane way; for some of these drawn out tragedies to start to mend themselves.

As someone who has been deep inside, I'd be interested in your thoughts, and hope you don't find the question intrusive.

Many of us are struggling to understand how the 'political' entity separates from the beliefs, whether indeed it can.

[Deus Ex Machina]

That's truly awful - I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say you have our sincerest sympathies, for whatever that's worth.


it's worth a lot.


May I ask you what your impression of the Anonymous thing is? Some people seem to think the COS might actually crack under a little more pressure, and allow the philosophy and religion to reformulate themselves in a more humane way; for some of these drawn out tragedies to start to mend themselves.
I think the anonymous thing is very encouraging for the critics of Scientology - for once the opposition to Scientology is bigger and more obvious than Scientology itself and that is very empowering.

It will have very little effect on Scientology itself. The people in there are "True Believers" they are being told that Anonymous is paid for by Psychiatry and Big Pharma - and they will believe that. it reinforces their world view.

The best way for people to get out of scientology is to start to question it. It is doubt and the recovery of critical thinking skills that gets people out. That's why I love posting in the JREF forum and why I support it - the promotion of critical thinking skills.



As someone who has been deep inside, I'd be interested in your thoughts, and hope you don't find the question intrusive.

Many of us are struggling to understand how the 'political' entity separates from the beliefs, whether indeed it can.I don't find them intrusive at all - ask away. Feel free to even ask "how could you have been so dumb...?" believe me it is something my wife and I ask each other - frequently! LOL.

There is no separation at all - Scientology is one thing - a Borg Cube if you will.

[Confuseling]

it's worth a lot.


It's sometimes surprising how much a like minded group on the net (the like of which, let's face it, is utterly impossible in the real world) can help. I know I've found strength sometimes amongst strangers.


I think the anonymous thing is very encouraging for the critics of Scientology - for once the opposition to Scientology is bigger and more obvious than Scientology itself and that is very empowering.

It will have very little effect on Scientology itself. The people in there are "True Believers" they are being told that Anonymous is paid for by Psychiatry and Big Pharma - and they will believe that. it reinforces their world view.


This sounds like such a difficult thing to balance. Although everyone's long term interest is the same - the end of the cult, you're presently trying to weigh the short term interests of those still in against the interests of the pool of potential recruits. If demonstrations raising awareness and preventing people joining push the adherents closer together, I suppose it becomes equivalent to a lot of complicated social situations in which someone can only really rescue themselves, like drugs. You need self-discipline to detach yourself emotionally from it, think 'tough love', and believe in the long term, or you just end up enabling them to continue as is. I suppose we all want to squeeze the cult gently, without hurting any specific members, and hope that it bursts anyway.


The best way for people to get out of scientology is to start to question it. It is doubt and the recovery of critical thinking skills that gets people out. That's why I love posting in the JREF forum and why I support it - the promotion of critical thinking skills.

I don't find them intrusive at all - ask away. Feel free to even ask "how could you have been so dumb...?" believe me it is something my wife and I ask each other - frequently! LOL.

I honestly don't think it's dumb - I've read too much about it. Too many very very smart people have ended up in it for it to be transparent. The fact that we all know about it now, having been deluged with information on the internet from the people that have blown, makes it impossible to understand the situation people were in even 10 or 15 years ago and thinking of joining. It seems to me to be a work of diabolical genius, a subtle bait-and-switch brainwashing operation masquerading as self-help, which gives - perhaps illusory - personal improvement at first, then shuts the cage door before you realise what's happened. I find it genuinely terrifying, and I can honestly say that speaking to people who have got out intact, and knowing that people can, nurtures my faith in the human spirit.

There is no separation at all - Scientology is one thing - a Borg Cube if you will.
So do you think the freezoners are just people who haven't broken the program yet - still seduced by something they're deluded into believing they almost saw, but which never existed, and in all probability the illusion of which cannot exist without the COS itself? Will the whole thing evaporate in one?

[FSM]

HI FSM! - You realize, I suppose that FSM is a big acronym in Scientology?

To answer your question - I did the RPF and the RPF's RPF in 1985-86 and my own personal experience is nowhere near as awful as other peoples'. Our elder son, who went back in, disconnected from us on Christmas Eve 8 years ago - he has, we have found out out from others, got married and has a son. We have never met our daughter in law or our grandson and do not even have a photograph of them. If that sounds like it sucks big time - it does.

If anyone reading this thread has any doubt at all whether Scientology destroys families deliberately - feel free to contact me.

Everytime I come across FSM in scieno stuff, I get just a little bit sick. But Co$ has so many acronyms, I think it is almost unavoidable that I would stumble into one of them: OT, PTS, SP, KSW, KR, TR, bleh bleh bleh etc. etc. etc.

I just want to say that I don't think you are dumb at all. We all have had our gris gris (as Penn says in ********) and if we are lucky we learn from it. I think even the most hardcore skeptics around here can say that there's been some point in time where they've made a bad decision not based on rational thought. And your trusting Co$ is something that makes perfect sense. Co$ preys on people who have a heroic streak (and all Cruise bashing aside, I think he, underneath it all, really BELIEVES that he is saving the world.) and upon those who are very very intelligent.

There's no shame in your game, friend. :) Many many people wouldn't have made it through like you did, particularly with your relationship still in tact!

I am proud to know you. Even if it is just knowing in sort of a vague, disembodied forum sense... I still feel proud of you and proud that you are one of US... US being this rag tag group of skeptics.

When I think of how awful it must feel not knowing your grandchild and not being able to meet your daughter in law... my heart hurts for you. I can't imagine what that must be like. I am sorry that you and that anyone has gone through that pain, especially because the separation is all about protecting the cult and bringing in money and more money.

Thanks for responding and know that this FSM is thinking about you and wishing you and your family the very best in the future.

:):):):)

[Bill Hall]

One of the many reference sources at xenu.net is the Scientology Booklist (http://www.xenu.net/archive/books). It contains links to many free online critical books.

[Apology]

I don't think you were dumb either, Deus. All the Scientologists I met were very bright people even if they were strongly deluded. They tried to recruit me in 1995 through a job I took at a Scientologist-owned business. I looked up my former employer here:

http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/ (there's a search box about a third of the way down the page)

and found that he reached OT 7 last year.

If I had been weak in my personal beliefs at the time or seeking some sort of spiritual enlightenment, they would have easily gotten me. The fact that they approached me while on the job offended and angered me instead. All places of employment should either be clearly religious or completely secular. I don't expect "Bob's Bibles and Things" to be a secular business, but if a business has a religious nature that requires a particular religious instruction, I expect to be notified before being hired.

[Apology]

Where did you do the RPF and the RPF's RPF, Deus? And what were your so-called "crimes"?

[Big Les]

I second the above Deus - it's great to have you here. The more I read about Scientology the more I see how it so easily ensare most of us, given the right circumstances.

Where's our old chum Fred by the way? Haven't seen him around for a while. Hope he didn't get RPFd for rubbish stats.

[calebprime]

... Our elder son, who went back in, disconnected from us on Christmas Eve 8 years ago...

Ouch.

btw, I don't think Scientologists are all stupid--I wouldn't mind being "stupid" like Chick Corea or Mark Isham--which is why they make good adverts for COS.

I've known a handful of bright musicians who were involved at low levels, and their motives for checking it out could be divided into curiosity and desire for self-advancement--the latter group might have tried Herbalife or Mary Kay Cosmetics.

[blobru]

Deus,

My deepest sympathies.

I almost lost my family some years ago when everyone but me got sucked into the Werner Erhard cult, a spin- / rip-off of Scientology (Erhard is SP for stealing their "technology"). Their m.o. is a little different; instead of disconnecting they try to 'short-circuit', proselytize: basically declaring all family members who refuse to take their training "fair game" (I found out snooping through lecture notes that my parents were being instructed in how to induce mental "breakdowns" in reluctant family members -- me -- with the slogan that "breakdowns lead to breakthroughs").

They go by the name Landmark Forum these days. I would class them as Co$-lite, as trainees aren't as physically isolated as in Scientology, but the mental isolation is about the same I think.

Best wishes to your family, and in your efforts to rescue and reconnect.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Where did you do the RPF and the RPF's RPF, Deus? And what were your so-called "crimes"?


Hi Apology,

I did the RPF and RPF's RPF at "Flag" - the base in Clearwater, Florida. While it was not a wonderfully pleasant experience it was not the "gulag" that other people went through.

My "crimes"? Well I was sent to the RPF for screwing up an important project. Now I know that probably does not seem real to most people but, within the realm of that mindset, I felt it was OK. I was not coerced into it (that is not to say there is no pressure of course, if I did not go I would be out of the organization - losing my friends and family in the process.

In a lot of ways it was a relief to get out of the pressure cooker .

I ended up in the RPFs RPF for refusing to do what I considered to be an illegal order. It is very difficult to explain this and while i I would be willing to do so it will be a long post. I refused, myself and my twin were assigned to the RPFs RPF , we refused to go and, eventually we won the point.

The problem, IMHO, with Scientology and with the Sea Organization is not that it cannot be an OK environment - it can. I have some very good friends still in (whom I cannot talk with, alas) there are some very good people in it. My experience in the RPF was not at all the same as the experiences of others and that demonstrates the problem nicely - Scientology has no way to check on itself or the way things are going and thinks that anyone who points out a bad thing is somehow "attacking" . Thus abusive situations occur and never get handled.

Scientology, like all totalitarian cults, provides a perfect greenhouse for abusive conditions.

[Deus Ex Machina]

I second the above Deus - it's great to have you here. The more I read about Scientology the more I see how it so easily ensare most of us, given the right circumstances.

Where's our old chum Fred by the way? Haven't seen him around for a while. Hope he didn't get RPFd for rubbish stats.

I feel sorry for Fred. I am sure he is getting slapped around a little while he tries to explain why, every time he tries to lie, someone points it out.

[Jekyll]

I feel sorry for Fred. I am sure he is getting slapped around a little while he tries to explain why, every time he tries to lie, someone points it out.

How does that work in there?

I always assumed that there would be some Orwellian doublespeak going on, it would be described as us "not being receptive to his truths" rather than catching him lying.

Does that go on or are they internally quite open about their spreading of lies?

[Deus Ex Machina]

How does that work in there?

I always assumed that there would be some Orwellian doublespeak going on, it would be described as us "not being receptive to his truths" rather than catching him lying.

Does that go on or are they internally quite open about their spreading of lies?

An interesting question.

Hubbard made use of a concept called "the acceptable truth". This was defined as being a "truth" that the audience could accept that did not necessarily encompass the whole truth.

For example :

"does Scientology declare it's enemies "Fair Game"

official acceptable truth:

"Of course not. Mr HUbbard cancelled that policy many years ago."

Which is true.

However what Hubbard actually cancelled was "the practice of naming people as fair game". he specifically did not cancel any policy on how enemies were to be treated.

Scientology believes that truth is so valuable it should only be doled out in very small amounts.

To answer you specifically - lying to non-scientologists (wogs) is totally OK. On a public board like this there is no way Freddy is going to be able to tell the truth anyway.

[Wildy]

And that is only to try and make us wogs join them.

[Gazpacho]

How does that work in there?

I always assumed that there would be some Orwellian doublespeak going on, it would be described as us "not being receptive to his truths" rather than catching him lying.
The way it works is that a Scientologist who disseminates the PR line he has been fed and fails to convince people with it, is blamed for for the failure. It proves that he is hiding his own doubts or ill will toward the church.

As someone advances in Scientology, their concept of ethics (including their judgement of when it is acceptable to lie) becomes very tightly bound up with what is good or bad for Scientology.