Paul Morphy -> Capablanca -> Bobby Fischer

[wogoga]

After having read interesting contributions in the discussion Bobby Fischer Dead (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=103948) I have remembered my own dealing with Bobby Fischer several years ago in the context of reincarnation chains (http://members.lol.li/twostone/reincarnation.html). Because many readers may consider such a hypothesis as abhorrent, I start here a new discussion thread on the same forum instead of infecting the existing one.

In my opinion, in order to understand Bobby Fischer (1943-2008) one must deal with his previous life as José Raúl Capablanca (1888-1942). The crucial tragical event in Capablanca's life was the loss of the world championship to Alexander Alekhine (1892-1946). As the most talented and until then unbeaten champion, Capablanca had to experience that a younger and less talented chess player had gradually but surely surpassed him.

Especially in the light of Bobby Fischer's behaviour when avoiding to defend his title against Karpov, I don't think that

"Although Capablanca was clearly the leading challenger, Alekhine carefully avoided granting a re-match, although a right to a re-match was part of the agreement. Alekhine also managed to arrange that he and Capablanca did not play in the same tournaments for the next several years." (Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Alekhine))
is the whole truth. A world champion cannot avoid granting a re-match to his most serious challenger, if this challenger does not somehow cooperate in avoiding the rematch. Yet Capablanca was frightened at the thought that he could also lose the rematch and unconsciously avoided the possibility of such a further humiliation.

After defeating Capablanca, Alekhine dominated chess and died 1946 in exile as world champion. Alekhine was reborn 1963 as Garri Weinstein (now Garry Kasparov) in Baku, Azerbaijan to an Armenian mother and a Jewish father. Reincarnation makes it understandable that Kasparov considers himself a Russian and that he stayed in Russia even after the break-down of the Soviet Union, when many native Russian artists, scientists, specialists and so on left Russia in order to try a better life abroad.

In any case, the top chess players are an ideal field to test reincarnation (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=106630), because nobody can become a chess prodigy without having been a top player in a previous live. So it shouldn't be very difficult to find the previous lives of e.g. Anatoli Karpov, Vladimir Kramnik or Viswanathan Anand.

Cheers, Wolfgang

[WildCat]

:scarper:

[figarot]

Well, my German hasn't improved any over the past few decades, all I know is to count to ten and curse, thus your reincarnation chains link wasn't as helpful as you might have hoped.

But to believe that "nobody can become a chess prodigy without having been a top player in a previous live" (I think you meant "life" not "live") is utter nonsense. That must mean the first few chess players in history were all rotten players of the game.
Anyway, with enough discipline most tasks can be mastered, even ones you have little talent for at first.
As for testing reincarnation, don't think it can be done. Don't think it's real either.

[MG1962]

Dang, and I thought this thread was going to be about who would have beaten who :(

Well I will go first - Capablanca would have owned Fischer through his sheer flair. Remember I am an unabashed Capablanca fan, and we know American's really cant play chess, so the answer is obvious :)

Oh and just in case - Yes the Terminator would wipe the floor with the monster from Alien

[figarot]

But couldn't Fisher have studied all of Capablanca's games beforehand and altered his strategy accordingly.

Only, in the infinitesimal chance wogoga's right, wouldn't Fisher have been playing with himself?

[MG1962]

But couldn't Fisher have studied all of Capablanca's games beforehand and altered his strategy accordingly.

Only, in the infinitesimal chance wogoga's right, wouldn't Fisher have been playing with himself?

:boggled:

[calebprime]

Oh and just in case - Yes the Terminator would wipe the floor with the monster from Alien

This reminds me of one of our favorite conversations--my son and me--called Who Would Win? My son is 9.

He asks, "Who do you think would win, 6 pit-bulls, or Yoda?"

Me: "Yoda. Ok, who would win--Keith Jarrett armed with only a tennis racket, or George Bush?"

etc.

[MG1962]

I have a child just like it. "Dad, what would you do if you were walking down the street and a woman next to you suddenly has her head explode"

Where does this stuff come from lol

[EGarrett]

I have prime Bobby Fischer beating everyone.

There's a very good chance that in his prime, Fischer was better at Chess than anyone has ever been at anything.

[Worm]

words fail me.

[Gravy]

In my opinion, in order to understand Bobby Fischer (1943-2008) one must deal with his previous life as José Raúl Capablanca (1888-1942).I've already done that. What shall I do next? Please respond with green text.

[Yalius]

Must've sucked to be the one reincarnated as Deep Blue.

[shemp]

{nonsense omitted}

I don't need to know German to know that yer a loony.

[Beerina]

That must mean the first few chess players in history were all rotten players of the game.

Actually, that's a quite reasonable supposition. :)


In reality, as Chess evolved from earlier games, those doing the changing were probably masters of whatever form it took that decade, though the very first people to put some rocks on some lines in the dirt probably weren't very good. "My rock punches your rock! I win!"

[Beerina]

Actually this guy makes a hypothesis that could be analyzed, if not tested. This earlier guy's gamestyle should be essentially identical (as chessmasters see it) in crucial areas to Bobby Fischer's. Is this the case?

I'll hold my breath while waiting. :rolleyes:

[miles_voltaire]

OF COURSE! I believe the same than you, wogoga. Fischer is Capablanca and Paul Morphy. Perhaps Alejin (Alekhine) is Garri Kasparov. I send to you my salutations y thanks for to formidable foro indiscutible

[miles_voltaire]

In spite of "who am I?" .... ¿who was Fischer... or Fitzgerald Kennedy? Tanto es así que encandiloba Mr. Alcalde Buster Keaton (Bush) were "el Mio Cid", el Cid Campeador

[KoihimeNakamura]

Attempting to parse...
..parsing...


Warning.. cannot parse.

Please restate in plain English.

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I find the suggestion repulsive:

It seems like your saying that Fischer and Capablanca were not really good players, they were just Morphy in disguise. That it would be impossible to be as good as Fischer or Capablanca without being the incarnation of a previous talented player. Surely Morphy must have been an incarnation of a previous talent (and so on, and so on). Where did the first talent come from? This leaves the conclusion that at some time there were a certain number of people who developed this talent on their own and no one else has been talented enough to do that.

So we are left with 2 different possible situations: the above convoluted one, or that idea that every generation has some talented players. Which one sounds more reasonable?

But in a very limited extent I would agree with you. Capablanca's play was influenced by Morphy, and Fisher's by both. Books written by and games played by Capablanca and Morphy were surely studied by the best players of following generations.

LLH

[Beerina]

After having read interesting contributions in the discussion Bobby Fischer Dead (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=103948) I have remembered my own dealing with Bobby Fischer several years ago in the context of reincarnation chains (http://members.lol.li/twostone/reincarnation.html). Because many readers may consider such a hypothesis as abhorrent, I start here a new discussion thread on the same forum instead of infecting the existing one.



Ahh, quite nice of you! Thanks! :)




In my opinion, in order to understand Bobby Fischer (1943-2008) one must deal with his previous life as José Raúl Capablanca (1888-1942).



:bwall

[Mark6]

OF COURSE! I believe the same than you, wogoga. Fischer is Capablanca and Paul Morphy. Perhaps Alejin (Alekhine) is Garri Kasparov.

I doubt it. Kasparov was born in 1963, not 1947 -- when, by the logic of OP, reincarnation of Alekhine should have been born.

So Karpov is not Alekhine either, as he was born in 1951.

Actually, I can't think of any great chess player born in 1947.

OTOH, Brian Lumley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Lumley) was born 272 days (almost exactly standard human gestation) after H. P. Lovecraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovecraft) died. So maybe there is something to it! :D

[TragicMonkey]

Funnily enough, do you know who was really good at chess? Something of a fanatic at it (and fanatic about several other things as well)?

Tamerlane.

Yep. The guy who left pyramids of severed heads behind him (supposedly as they decayed, sometimes the gases emitted would glow green in the dark) was also a big chess expert. He invented several new pieces and playing variants as well.

[TragicMonkey]

Dupe post

[BPSCG]

Best.

Thread.

Ever.

[GreyICE]

I agree. It has been my observation that I share many key similarities with Alexander the Great. Except for the homosexuality. And the military bit. And the entire Greek deal. And the leadership ability.

But, I mean, we're both male, and that counts for something. Right? Right?!?

[NoZed Avenger]

Actually this guy makes a hypothesis that could be analyzed, if not tested. This earlier guy's gamestyle should be essentially identical (as chessmasters see it) in crucial areas to Bobby Fischer's. Is this the case?

I'll hold my breath while waiting. :rolleyes:

Very dissimilar in a number of respects. Fischer was probably closer to Alekhine (IMO) than Capa in playstyle -- more aggressive/attacking.

Your mileage may vary.

[gnome]

I have prime Bobby Fischer beating everyone.

There's a very good chance that in his prime, Fischer was better at Chess than anyone has ever been at anything.

Kind of hard to measure...

Better than Joe Louis at boxing in his prime?
Better than Irving Crane at straight pool in his prime?
Better than Einstein at understanding Relativity?
Better than George Bush at sucking? (sorry) :D

I'm not sure how to develop a standard of comparison.

[Radrook]

Capablanca was far more naturally talented than any other chess player I have read about. These other players had to study like maniacs. Morphy? He was beating players who were generally deficient in proper chess opening theory. In contrast Capa was playing against those who were familiar with Steinitzian strategy such as Lasker, Rubinstein, Marshal, Bogolyubov and Botvinick. If indeed Fisher was the reincarnation of Capa where was his ability to play at the master level without cracking a book? Instead we find Fisher fanatically submersing himself in chess theory, tactics and strategy until he slowly grew into the great player he became. Capa didn't need to.

[Ratatosk]

Fischer was great for a short time, but only an American would ever call him the greatest of all time. I say this as someone who happens to be a USAian myself. I'm not a chess expert, but any simple glance at tournament history shows Kasparov to be roughly ten times better, and also at least ten times more mentally stable.

While we're at it, is there an American soccer player who we should, for patriotic reasons, call the finest footballer of all time too? Nominees?

And to the OP'er: you are a clever troll if ever I saw one. I refuse to consider the other possibility.

[shemp]

The guy who left pyramids of severed heads behind him (supposedly as they decayed, sometimes the gases emitted would glow green in the dark)...

This must have been quite a tourist attraction.

[Radrook]

If indeed Capa was the reincarnation of Morphy-where was Capa's deep aversion to anything even remotely resembling chess? Morphy had grown to detest the game and would ultimately fly into a rage whenever anyone as much as insinuated that he was a chess player.

BTW


I am repeatedly getting duplicate post warnings whenever I post once. Anyone else having this problem?

[TragicMonkey]

This must have been quite a tourist attraction.

It made Transoxiana the household name it is today.

[EGarrett]

Kind of hard to measure...

Better than Joe Louis at boxing in his prime?
Better than Irving Crane at straight pool in his prime?
Better than Einstein at understanding Relativity?
Better than George Bush at sucking? (sorry) :D

I'm not sure how to develop a standard of comparison.You're absolutely right, it's not exact...it's just a fun thing to think about.

There's a class of "Best in the World," then there's "Undisputed Best in the World by any reasonable person, for a long period of time"...and THEN there's "Dominant Freak who crushes everyone else in the world."

An Olympic Gold Medalist is obviously the first category, "Best in the World."

Wrestling: Kurt Angle
Chess: Tigran Petrosian
Basketball: George Mikan in his era.
Boxing: Lennox Lewis
Military: Hm, let's say George Patton.

Someone who wins more than one Gold medal or has the label of best for a long period of time is the next level-up. These people are usually national heroes and historical/mythical on top of it...and get the label of "Greatest".

Wrestling: Dan Gable (Gold Medalist, afaik went undefeated AND unscored upon when doing so)
Chess: Garry Kasparov (World Champion for many years)
Basketball: Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon
Boxing: Muhammad Ali
Military: Napoleon

Even a level above that is the Dominant Freak. A person who not only is the best in the world, but in their prime crushes everyone else on the planet in a scary fashion.

Wrestling: Alexander Karelin (undefeated AND unscored on for something like 10 years. Won everything at his class in wrestling.)
Chess: Bobby Fischer
Boxing: Mike Tyson before going to prison, Joe Louis probably
Military: Alexander The Great
Basketball: Michael Jordan OR Wilt Chamberlain.
Others: Tiger Woods, probably Lance Armstrong, Secretariat, Mozart, Da Vinci etc.

Those are just the people I'm aware of...

The non-competitive ones are too hard to judge objectively. It really comes down to whether Fischer in his prime was more of a dominant freak than the other people in that category. You have to compare his 21-0 streak to Woods' 18-stroke victory, Mike Tyson's run of knocking guys out in the first round, Jordan's 3-peats, Secretariat's 31-length victory...and, well, Karelin's entire career.

[Ratatosk]

You're absolutely right, it's not exact...it's just a fun thing to think about.

Even a level above that is the Dominant Freak. A person who not only is the best in the world, but in their prime crushes everyone else on the planet in a scary fashion.

Wrestling: Alexander Karelin (undefeated AND unscored on for something like 10 years. Won everything at his class in wrestling.)
Chess: Bobby Fischer
Boxing: Mike Tyson before going to prison, Joe Louis probably
Military: Alexander The Great
Basketball: Michael Jordan OR Wilt Chamberlain.
Others: Tiger Woods, probably Lance Armstrong, Secretariat, Mozart, Da Vinci etc.

The non-competitive ones are too hard to judge objectively. It really comes down to whether Fischer in his prime was more of a dominant freak than the other people in that category. You have to compare his 21-0 streak to Woods' 18-stroke victory, Mike Tyson's run of knocking guys out in the first round, Jordan's 3-peats, Secretariat's 31-length victory...and, well, Karelin's entire career.

I'm with you on a lot of this (on Karelin, especially -- what did they feed that guy?) But I think your saying that Tyson is "on a level above" an Ali, and the same argument for Fischer, is going too far. Tyson, to my mind, is more on a level with Sonny Liston -- an intimidating, aggressive fighter who didn't do so well if his opponent wasn't afraid of him (Holyfield/Lennox Lewis/Hell, even Buster Douglas). Liston ran into the same thing with Ali.

I think the parallel between Fischer and Tyson is a pretty good one. Again, I think saying Fischer is "on a level above" Kasparov is ludicrous -- when he came out of retirement he didn't push for a match against Kasparov, instead going after Spassky, who was pretty much irrelevant by then. I'd say comparing Tyson/Fischer with Louis/Kasparov is more like comparing a really good cherry tomato with a really good full-sized tomato.

I think my list would go
CHESS: Kasparov, Morphy (if it's even worth comparing so far back)
BOXING: Joe Louis, Jack Johnson, Ali (probably in that order)
WRESTLING: Karelin
BASKETBALL: Chamberlain with Jordan a straggling second
GOLF: Tiger Woods (showing Ali-esque "heart" in winning the recent U.S. Open with an injured knee)
MODERN MARTIAL ARTS: The whole damn Gracie family, until everybody else started to study their methods
(JAPANESE) SWORDSMANSHIP: Tsukahara Bokuden, who wasn't a particularly good self-promoter, but who probably killed more than 200 men in battles and duels without ever being wounded except by arrows.

OK, I think I'm in full derail mode now, so I'll stop. :D

[Ratatosk]

To derail even further:

FIGURE SKATING: Brian Boitano (as in "That's what Brian Boitano'd do")
MAMMALS: The grizzly bear (a godless killing machine)

[Beerina]

Even a level above that is the Dominant Freak. A person who not only is the best in the world, but in their prime crushes everyone else on the planet in a scary fashion.

Wrestling: Alexander Karelin (undefeated AND unscored on for something like 10 years. Won everything at his class in wrestling.)
Chess: Bobby Fischer
Boxing: Mike Tyson before going to prison, Joe Louis probably
Military: Alexander The Great
Basketball: Michael Jordan OR Wilt Chamberlain.
Others: Tiger Woods, probably Lance Armstrong, Secretariat, Mozart, Da Vinci etc.

Here's someone who dominated checkers bad. Real bad. Vin Diesel bad. 40 years straight of brutal Diesel goodness.

And his name was Marion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Tinsley).

When someone developed the Chinook chess computer program and challenged him, the Checkers Federation (or whatever the body is called) said he couldn't play the program, so he threatened to quit.

So he played. And the first game he lost. Like a giant waking from his sleep, the gears began to churn to their fullest again, and he pulled out a win, though two game loses count as 2 of the only 9 individual championship games he's lost since 1954 (just games, not matches.)

Of course, it's now been proven that 1. Perfect games of checkers can be played, and 2. Two such competitors will always end the game in a draw. I have no idea if that modern computer that calculated this (which took 10 years) could come close to actually playing a game in real time though.

[miles_voltaire]

Perdonad. I'm spanish boy-man. I don´t know english concert musicalishes nor american daugthers. A popi deschamps; Not esquare fiftymenti in the closed water. Return a perdonad.

About this theme' orthography I philip this time than Paul Morphy was Philidor (PHILIDOR IN XVIII'siglo). The Match continua.

[gnome]

Of course, it's now been proven that 1. Perfect games of checkers can be played, and 2. Two such competitors will always end the game in a draw. I have no idea if that modern computer that calculated this (which took 10 years) could come close to actually playing a game in real time though.

Was it a brute force algorithm of all possible moves, or was it a mathematical proof that such an algorithm existed?

[gnome]

Perdonad. I'm spanish boy-man. I don´t know english concert musicalishes nor american daugthers. A popi deschamps; Not esquare fiftymenti in the closed water. Return a perdonad.

About this theme' orthography I philip this time than Paul Morphy was Philidor (PHILIDOR IN XVIII'siglo). The Match continua.

I think you might be more comprehensible in Spanish.

[shemp]

Perdonad. I'm spanish boy-man. I don´t know english concert musicalishes nor american daugthers. A popi deschamps; Not esquare fiftymenti in the closed water. Return a perdonad.

About this theme' orthography I philip this time than Paul Morphy was Philidor (PHILIDOR IN XVIII'siglo). The Match continua.

Looks like Pillory moved to Spain.

[Radrook]

Considering that Fisher had been away from tournament chess for decades while Spassky had been very active during that time-I the outcome in Fisher's favor is very impressive.

[Beerina]

While we're at it, is there an American soccer player who we should, for patriotic reasons, call the finest footballer of all time too? Nominees?

Mr. Posh Spice Victoria?




:scarper:

[miles_voltaire]

ETIQUETA'S

1.Paul Morphy is Capablanca is Bobby Fischer
2.Mendelshonn Bartholdy is Jesuschriste
3.Bory Fischer is Anatoly Karpov
4.Yogur yoplait is Fischer Kennedy
&5. My boldy is Trist-e

[gnome]

They're all "Flint the Immortal" of course :)