Woman Claims that Women are Dumb

[Puppycow]

One of the dumbest Op-Eds I've ever read (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/29/AR2008022902992.html)

For example:
Depressing as it is, several of the supposed misogynist myths about female inferiority have been proven true.

Women are not merely different, but inferior? Of course it's a free country and the Washington Post can give its pages over to whoever it sees fit, but I wonder if it would have published this if the author had been a man? Or if some person of any race claimed that "several of the supposed racist myths about the inferiority of ethnic group X have been proven true"?

It continues:
Women really are worse drivers than men, for example. A study published in 1998 by the Johns Hopkins schools of medicine and public health revealed that women clocked 5.7 auto accidents per million miles driven, in contrast to men's 5.1, even though men drive about 74 percent more miles a year than women. The only good news was that women tended to take fewer driving risks than men, so their crashes were only a third as likely to be fatal. Those statistics were reinforced by a study released by the University of London in January showing that women and gay men perform more poorly than heterosexual men at tasks involving navigation and spatial awareness, both crucial to good driving.

I'm dubious about the "studies" she cites. Most studies turn out to be wrong (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1182327), as subsequent studies fail to confirm earlier studies. One study that says anything is far from conclusive, and hardly solid grounds for making a blanket statement such as "Women really are worse drivers than men."

[Giraffe107]

Well she's not invited to my next Botox party.


ETA: Yay 51 posts!

[skeptifem]

One of the dumbest Op-Eds I've ever read (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/29/AR2008022902992.html)

For example:


Women are not merely different, but inferior? Of course it's a free country and the Washington Post can give its pages over to whoever it sees fit, but I wonder if it would have published this if the author had been a man? Or if some person of any race claimed that "several of the supposed racist myths about the inferiority of ethnic group X have been proven true"?


oh hell no, you know it wouldnt be published if a man had said it (or a white person in your other example).

you know that finding some crazy person to spew racist/sexist crap about their own group is a great way to spread these opinions around without having the finger pointed at whoever allowed it to happen. I wonder who decided that this was worth publishing? anyway.. I dont know how people can still buy into the idea that women cant be sexist or that black people cant be racist, but it seems like most people do.

eta- actually, i changed my mind.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/03/the-mainstream-media-hates-women/

i guess plenty of men have been openly slamming women this week.

[TragicMonkey]

Those statistics were reinforced by a study released by the University of London in January showing that women and gay men perform more poorly than heterosexual men at tasks involving navigation and spatial awareness, both crucial to good driving.

So, it's not being a woman that supposedly makes one dumber, it's attraction to men? Because gay men are not women, so it's not to do with the sex or chemistry of the individual. How do lesbians do on these "tasks"? Does their womanly brain fight their manly attraction to women?

I think once someone tries to make a biological argument for sex differences that lumps women and gay men together, it's fairly obviously junk science.

[brodski]

women clocked 5.7 auto accidents per million miles driven, in contrast to men's 5.1, even though men drive about 74 percent more miles a year than women. "

Well it's clear that she doesn't understand the data she presents, who can spot the glaring mistake with the quoted sentence? ;)

[El Greco]

I know lots of men who admit openly that women are (socially) smarter than men, yet this never makes the news. It is usually greeted by both sexes with applause and humor.

That being said, women are worse drivers indeed.

[a_unique_person]

I know lots of men who admit openly that women are (socially) smarter than men, yet this never makes the news. It is usually greeted by both sexes with applause and humor.

That being said, women are worse drivers indeed.

Hey, Greeks are worse drivers :boxedin:

[El Greco]

Hey, Greeks are worse drivers :boxedin:

Greek men are indeed among the world's worst. Egyptians must be the record holders though.

I think women are equally bad worldwide.

[JoeEllison]

Folks... that article doesn't exist to bash women. It exists to call Hillary Clinton and her female staffers "stupid." It exists to call Barack Obama's female supporters "stupid."

[Soapy Sam]

Seems to me, if she's right and women are dumb, why should we trust a woman's word on the matter?

[Zep]

Yeah! And they got cooties too!

[Morwen]

Well it's clear that she doesn't understand the data she presents, who can spot the glaring mistake with the quoted sentence? ;)
If you count accidents per million miles, the number of total miles driven is irrelevant. She isn't too smart, or at least, she wasn't too smart while writing that piece. Maybe it was a subtle way of bringing her point home...? Which of course would negate her point, since she, as a woman, is dumber and cannot be trusted, which of course would make her data unreliable, which... Meh. What do I know. I'm just a dumb woman.

[cyborg]

Sexual disparities between linguistic and spatial orientated tasks are quite well investigated.

To conclude as a matter of course that such a disparity makes one sex "dumb" is much like calling a fish stupid for not being able to breathe air and a cat idiotic for drowing in water.

[Soapy Sam]

What do I know. I'm just a dumb woman.

So...uhh...fancy a beer?

[bluess]

So...uhh...fancy a beer?

She's not that dumb...:D

[Puppycow]

Well it's clear that she doesn't understand the data she presents, who can spot the glaring mistake with the quoted sentence? ;)

The "mistake" is probably that people who drive more are by definition more experienced drivers and have fewer accidents per unit of distance. I would like to see the breakdown of the data if it exists: Do women and men who drive the same amount have different accident rates? I doubt it, but even if they do, there may be other confounding factors.

[Modified]

The "mistake" is probably that people who drive more are by definition more experienced drivers and have fewer accidents per unit of distance. I would like to see the breakdown of the data if it exists: Do women and men who drive the same amount have different accident rates? I doubt it, but even if they do, there may be other confounding factors.

They could leave out anyone who hadn't driven at least 100,000 miles. I doubt that additional experience after that would make much difference. You could also correct for height, as it is easier to see objects near the car when you are higher up in the seat. Then there is the fact that men are more likely to drive high-performance cars that can brake and maneuver faster, possibly offset by the tendency of those who own such cars to drive recklessly.

In my experience though, on average, men are better parallel parkers than women. More precisely, there are fewer men who avoid parallel parking entirely. That difference may be cultural. Sixteen-year-old boys who can't parallel park will be mercilessly ridiculed by their friends; not so much for sixteen-year-old girls.

[Modified]

The only good news was that women tended to take fewer driving risks than men, so their crashes were only a third as likely to be fatal.This also makes no sense. Taking more risks would increase the rate of both fatal and non-fatal accidents. "Fewer potentially deadly driving risks" might be a possibility.

[cyborg]

That difference may be cultural

No, it's brain type.

Female type brains are worse at spatial orientation tasks. This is just a fact.

I suggest looking up http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Listen-Women-Cant-Read/dp/0767907639

[Darth Rotor]

I think once someone tries to make a biological argument for sex differences that lumps women and gay men together, it's fairly obviously junk science.
A minor quibble: it more closely approaches "junk in the trunk" science. YMMV ;)

DR

[The Painter]

Hmmm. A woman writes an article claiming women are dumb. You guys disagree and call her dumb. Hmmmm.

[latent aaaack]

The "mistake" is probably that people who drive more are by definition more experienced drivers and have fewer accidents per unit of distance. I would like to see the breakdown of the data if it exists: Do women and men who drive the same amount have different accident rates? I doubt it, but even if they do, there may be other confounding factors.

It wouldn't make sense for the author to say that women have higher accident rates despite men being more experienced drivers either, since her point is there are biological differences that make women worse drivers, not inexperience.

There are a bunch of obvious mistakes in this article and weird of the Washington Post to give voice to a hard core sexist for no apparent reason. I thought that was societally unacceptable, like racism and keeping in mind how the Harvard president was severely ostracized for his much milder statements.

Could this be a side effect of Hillary Clinton's negative media image and political prominence and could the same thing happen with Obama if that dream float goes south, ie a loosening of taboos on racist speech?

[NoZed Avenger]

Yeah! And they got cooties too!


How did that pass the censor-bot?

I didn't think we were allowed to talk about their cooties.

[Beerina]

Women really are worse drivers than men, for example. A study published in 1998 by the Johns Hopkins schools of medicine and public health revealed that women clocked 5.7 auto accidents per million miles driven, in contrast to men's 5.1, even though men drive about 74 percent more miles a year than women.

Madam, you suffer from what's called "innumeracy". It's a play on the word "illiteracy", and describes someone who doesn't very well understand mathematics, and more importantly, statistics.

First of all, your stats are based on "per million miles driven". Hence whether men drive 74% more or 3000% less than women is irrelevant.

Second, if men drive 74% more than women, one would expect them to be somewhat better than they would be if they drove the same number of miles as women.

Third, given men drive so much more than women, one would expect them to be doing significantly better, than women, than a mere 0.6 accidents per million miles. This actually suggests men are worse drivers than women. In other words, a hypothetical woman who drove 74% more than the average female would be expected to have an even lower rate than 5.1.

If the data were normalized to compare drivers of similar experience, then one could determine this.




If one were not innumerate.

[Drudgewire]

Somebody has this as their signature on the big O&A board. It's so wrong, but it cracks me up every single time.

http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/woman.jpg

:lolsign:

[Modified]

No, it's brain type.

Female type brains are worse at spatial orientation tasks. This is just a fact.

I suggest looking up http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Listen-Women-Cant-Read/dp/0767907639

I doubt that that has much to do with parallel parking avoidance. With sufficient practice, anyone can learn to parallel park. The main difference is probably in desire to practice and learn, or social pressure.

[cyborg]

I doubt that that has much to do with parallel parking avoidance. With sufficient practice, anyone can learn to parallel park.

There are some things you simply cannot practice - like an innate ability to be better aware of one's spatial orientation.

The main difference is probably in desire to practice and learn, or social pressure.

I suppose you blame other differences in the sexes on society as well right?

The simplest explanation is that women are simply not as confident because they just don't grok the spatial task set before them. Being risk adverse they will therefore prefer not to parallel park.

On the other hand men are both more confident with the task and are less risk adverse.

Men and women are different. Denying this because idiots will use these facts to support poor arguments is just as idiotic.

[WildCat]

I doubt it, but even if they do, there may be other confounding factors.
You mean like applying makeup and yapping on the cell phone while negotiating 4 lanes of traffic?

Admit it ladies, some of you have the interior rear view mirror pointed at your face instead of the back window, raise your hand if this is you!

[brodski]

Hmmm. A woman writes an article claiming women are dumb. You guys disagree and call her dumb. Hmmmm.

Can you not differentiate between a member of a group and the group as a whole?

[TragicMonkey]

I'd rather have a make-up applying woman as the distracted driver in the lane next to me than some under-endowed man with an urge to prove he's macho by driving unnecessarily aggressively. Yes, I drive a small car. No, that does not mean you have to prove yourself by passing me. Please note that my small car generally travels twenty miles per hour above the speed limit. Do not see the cuteness and assume you should pass. If I pass you in turn, it is because I wish to go faster than you. It is not a contest. It is not a Freudian contest, either. I have been blessed in that department, and feel no need to drive a large vehicle like a jerk to compensate for any smallcomings. I mean, shortcomings.

[Careyp74]

Third, given men drive so much more than women, one would expect them to be doing significantly better, than women, than a mere 0.6 accidents per million miles. This actually suggests men are worse drivers than women. In other words, a hypothetical woman who drove 74% more than the average female would be expected to have an even lower rate than 5.1.



You must know some formula for miles driven versus accident expectancy. You cannot just say that an increase in average miles driven equals a certain linear decrease in expected accidents. It could be that no matter how much you increase average driving, you cannot go below 5 (for example).

These numbers are so close anyway, I wonder what is the expected error is on the survey done by Hopkins? How did they work out the miles driven? Also, what do they do in cases where a male and female are involved in a two car accident? If it is the male's fault, and they add one more to both counts, then the female total is off.

[Hokulele]

If women are more prone to accidents than men, why has my auto insurance rate always been lower than my husband's?

[bozothedeathmachine]

Seems to me, if she's right and women are dumb, why should we trust a woman's word on the matter?

Kinda like when Spock* gave that computer the ultimate logical whammy:

1) Everything I say is a lie
2) Statement number 1 was a lie.

Destruction ensues.:eek:

*Disclaimer: I've seen, maybe, 3 Trek episodes. This forum just pulls the geek out of me.

[Rufo]

Hmmm. A woman writes an article claiming women are dumb. You guys disagree and call her dumb. Hmmmm.
It could be a social experiment to see how many people will blame her stupidity on that she's a woman. :p

Skeptics are the bane of social experiments...

[El Greco]

is not a Freudian contest, either. I have been blessed in that department

You have a big subconscious ?

[Polaris]

How did that pass the censor-bot?

I didn't think we were allowed to talk about their cooties.

Not "cooties", you're thinking of "$%&@!#*%&$#..s"

[brodski]

If women are more prone to accidents than men, why has my auto insurance rate always been lower than my husband's?

Because the average woman drives less than the average man.

[Hokulele]

Because the average woman drives less than the average man.


Then why do they bother to ask how many miles we each drive per week? I tend to drive about 20% more on average than my husband.

[Puppycow]

Then why do they bother to ask how many miles we each drive per week? I tend to drive about 20% more on average than my husband.

If you have an accident, it's more likely to be minor, whereas men are 3 times more likely to have fatal accidents. So they probably set your respective rates as something like (average cost per accident) x (frequency of accidents) + (profit margin) for a person of your profile. If men are 3 times more likely to have fatal accidents, then that first figure will be much higher, I would expect.

[The Painter]

Can you not differentiate between a member of a group and the group as a whole?
Wake up!!! What's wrong with you??????

[NobbyNobbs]

I'm dubious about the "studies" she cites. Most studies turn out to be wrong (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1182327), as subsequent studies fail to confirm earlier studies.

Then again, perhaps the study you linked to is incorrect.....

:D

[Jeff Corey]

Painter,
He has an underdeveloped Irony Lobe in the Parietal Cortex.

[The Painter]

Painter,
He has an underdeveloped Irony Lobe in the Parietal Cortex.

Alright that's it. It's go time. Mendlebaum, Mendlebaum, You think you're better than me??

[Modified]

There are some things you simply cannot practice - like an innate ability to be better aware of one's spatial orientation.

I think you overestimate the difficulty.

I suppose you blame other differences in the sexes on society as well right?Not at all, but when I was learning to drive, a man who couldn't parallel park was considered pathetic. You had to learn or face ridicule. If a woman couldn't parallel park it was considered mildly amusing, possibly "cute", and perhaps somewhat inconvenient. Under those conditions, even if men had far inferior spatial awareness than women, they would have learned.

[Jeff Corey]

Alright that's it. It's go time. Mendlebaum, Mendlebaum, You think you're better than me??

It's Mandelbaum, schmuck. Izzy Mandelbaum, and don't you ever forget it.

[ponderingturtle]

No, it's brain type.

Female type brains are worse at spatial orientation tasks. This is just a fact.

I suggest looking up http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Listen-Women-Cant-Read/dp/0767907639

I have also seen it suggested that asbergers is an excessively male brain.

[ponderingturtle]

If women are more prone to accidents than men, why has my auto insurance rate always been lower than my husband's?

Well the numbers there support that, a small difference in accident rates per million miles, but so many fewer miles means much less risk of an accident.

[Morrigan]

She can speak for herself. *shrugs*

[Puppycow]

Now the Washington Post is saying that it was supposed to be 'tongue-in-cheek.' (http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/0308/Wash_Post_editor_says_controversial_piece_was_tong ueincheek.html)

Under the circumstances, a convenient fall-back position. In that case, however, why not stick to anecdotes about Grey's Anatomy instead of citing 'studies' about brain size and driving statistics?

[Puppycow]

More 'tongue-in-cheek' wackiness from Charlotte Allen? (http://web.archive.org/web/20060112235301/www.iwf.org/inkwell/default.asp?archiveID=1384)

Frankly, even as a woman, I miss the old sexist days, when stewardesses were stewardesses: pretty young things in cute mini-suits and little heels who oozed attention onto everyone--because who knew? They might end up marrying one of the passengers. Why does feminism have to mean the triumph of the ugly and the surly?

[Zep]

How did that pass the censor-bot?

I didn't think we were allowed to talk about their cooties.Yeah!

An' they're not allowed in our tree-house without us saying so!

So there!

[Rufo]

More 'tongue-in-cheek' wackiness from Charlotte Allen? (http://web.archive.org/web/20060112235301/www.iwf.org/inkwell/default.asp?archiveID=1384)
First a she's a stupid woman who claims that women in general are stupid and now she's writing on "Independent Women's Forum" about how she misses the "old sexist days"?

Seems she masters all forms of meta-irony. I only wish it was deliberate...

ETA: That link contained more examples of this... appearently the name of the forum has little to do with anything.

[cyborg]

I think you overestimate the difficulty.

Not really. I see the difference quite clearly everytime my girlfriend attempts to park.

Not at all, but when I was learning to drive,

Not my time nor my culture then - which rather makes your anecdote irrelevant.

[Cincinnatus]

Who am I to disagree with a women? When they're right they are right.

[Polaris]

Who am I to disagree with a women? When they're right they are right.

I'm gonna let someone else fall on this Obvious Joke Grenade.

[brodski]

Painter,
He has an underdeveloped Irony Lobe in the Parietal Cortex.

Or perhaps I can detect irony and therefore know when it is not present...

[skeptifem]

I know lots of men who admit openly that women are (socially) smarter than men, yet this never makes the news. It is usually greeted by both sexes with applause and humor.


That being said, women are worse drivers indeed.

do you think its inherent or a result of social programming?

i wasnt raised to be very girly, and the differences between myself and women who were are frustrating for me. i hate the word 'women' being used in place of 'women in general' or 'most women'. I dont think you realize you are addressing every woman when you use that sort of phrasing. I am sick of being lumped in with a bunch of people that I usually dont have anything in common w/ besides having similar reproductive organs.

its especially **** when negetive stereotypes of men (prisons are full of violent/sexually violent male offenders) being shared as a "men are ____" sort of statement would NEVER fly because of how disrespectful it is. its not *********** cool to talk about any large group in such a fashion because its disrespectful in addition to being completely inaccurate.

[ImaginalDisc]

do you think its inherent or a result of social programming?

i wasnt raised to be very girly, and the differences between myself and women who were are frustrating for me. i hate the word 'women' being used in place of 'women in general' or 'most women'. I dont think you realize you are addressing every woman when you use that sort of phrasing. I am sick of being lumped in with a bunch of people that I usually dont have anything in common w/ besides having similar reproductive organs.

its especially **** when negetive stereotypes of men (prisons are full of violent/sexually violent male offenders) being shared as a "men are ____" sort of statement would NEVER fly because of how disrespectful it is. its not *********** cool to talk about any large group in such a fashion because its disrespectful in addition to being completely inaccurate.

I've noticed women complain about disrespectful generalities.

[skeptifem]

No, it's brain type.

Female type brains are worse at spatial orientation tasks. This is just a fact.

I suggest looking up http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Listen-Women-Cant-Read/dp/0767907639


uhm its pretty damn hard to eliminate nurture as a variable. first person shooter type games have been shown to improve driving ability, and the players of those games are overwhelmingly male.

ive personally experienced thinking you are going to be bad at something making you bad at it when you know you can do better. it pisses me off to no end but its hard to resist doing what you feel like you 'should' be doing, i have little that most women dont even think about it.

[skeptifem]

There are some things you simply cannot practice - like an innate ability to be better aware of one's spatial orientation.



I suppose you blame other differences in the sexes on society as well right?

The simplest explanation is that women are simply not as confident because they just don't grok the spatial task set before them. Being risk adverse they will therefore prefer not to parallel park.

On the other hand men are both more confident with the task and are less risk adverse.

Men and women are different. Denying this because idiots will use these facts to support poor arguments is just as idiotic.

the apa disagrees with you (about the differences being inherent anyway). I think i trust their research a bit more than your opinions. :)

[godless dave]

So, it's not being a woman that supposedly makes one dumber, it's attraction to men? Because gay men are not women, so it's not to do with the sex or chemistry of the individual. How do lesbians do on these "tasks"? Does their womanly brain fight their manly attraction to women?

I think once someone tries to make a biological argument for sex differences that lumps women and gay men together, it's fairly obviously junk science.'

Er, they have found several biological differences between gay men and straight men, so it's not as far-fetched as you seem to think. I haven't heard of any such driving study involving gay men though (and such a study would have to control for the safety records of Volkswagon Cabriolets. j/k).

The studies cited by the op-ed writer refute her own assertion, though. The fact that men tend to get in more car accidents that result in death and serious injury could be interpreted that men are worse drivers than women.

[firecoins]

women are dumb. Take my wife....Please!!!:DSeriouslly though...take her!!!!

[godless dave]

If women are more prone to accidents than men, why has my auto insurance rate always been lower than my husband's?

Because insurance companies are interested in amount of monetary damages, not number of accidents.

[Beerina]

You must know some formula for miles driven versus accident expectancy. You cannot just say that an increase in average miles driven equals a certain linear decrease in expected accidents. It could be that no matter how much you increase average driving, you cannot go below 5 (for example).

Yes, I would expect that the number would decrease with increases in miles driven, but that it would not be linear. It would probably continue to approach zero, ever more slowly, but never actually reach it.

To get past 5, it might require millions of miles a year, for the past 20 years of one's life. Hence in practice it would never get that low.

But the average miles per year given does suggest a non-trivial experience advantage for males over females, and thus one would expect a lower accident rate per mile simply because they drive more, and are thus more experienced. If men are inherently more dangerous drivers (a man and a woman with equal experience might have the man have more accidents), then this experience effect could be masking the inherently crappier driving abilities of men. A group of women who drive 70% more than another group of women might have, say, a 4.9 rate instead of 5.1.

[Beerina]

If women are more prone to accidents than men, why has my auto insurance rate always been lower than my husband's?

Insurance pays out on an accident. Even though men might have a lower per mile rate (because they drive more and thus have more experience), they might actually have more accidents total because they drive more. What helps them also bites them.

If men drive 70% more, then a 5.1 rate for them gives about 1.4x more accidents total than a woman with a 5.9 rate, and thus they should have a higher insurance rate, regardless of whether men or women are inherently crappier drivers.

[Beerina]

Kinda like when Spock* gave that computer the ultimate logical whammy:

1) Everything I say is a lie
2) Statement number 1 was a lie.

Destruction ensues.:eek:

*Disclaimer: I've seen, maybe, 3 Trek episodes. This forum just pulls the geek out of me.


:spock: As this tactic has been used a number of times, three episodes is enough to have a 78% chance of encountering it.

[cyborg]

uhm its pretty damn hard to eliminate nurture as a variable. first person shooter type games have been shown to improve driving ability, and the players of those games are overwhelmingly male.

I think you're proving my point without realising it.

ive personally experienced thinking you are going to be bad at something making you bad at it when you know you can do better. it pisses me off to no end but its hard to resist doing what you feel like you 'should' be doing, i have little that most women dont even think about it.

I'm not doing what I feel like I should be doing. I like doing engineering problems. It's the social problems I have to deal with at work that annoys me. The sort of thing women (or, more accurately, the female brain types) are good at.

[epeos76]

. It's the social problems I have to deal with at work that annoys me. The sort of thing women (or, more accurately, the female brain types) are good at.

At least one researcher (http://www.amazon.com/Female-Brain-Louann-Md-Brizendine/dp/0767920104/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204917378&sr=8-1) suggests that women are just better at social problems, not inherently worse at spacial ones. She notes that testosterone destroys brain tissue related to language use and reasons that, on average, women have a competitive advantage at the margins that encourages women to specialize in areas that rely on those skills.

[Careyp74]

A group of women who drive 70% more than another group of women might have, say, a 4.9 rate instead of 5.1.

you just repeated the same thing that I was arguing the first time. I might not realize something here, but what if I had a study that showed a group of 1000 women that drove 80% more than average women, and their accident rate was 5.5 accidents per million. Wouldn't that still fit in with everything known, and show that women are worse drivers then men, who drive that amount with a 5.1 rate. Their improvement would be only .2 from the average population of women.

[Beerina]

Yes, but the point was that you can't compare women who drive X miles vs. men who drive 1.7X miles when comparing accident rates. It's apples and oranges.

Whether worse or better, they need to compare similar driving experience of men and women. That includes not just average miles for the last year, but total driving experience over their whole life so far.

[JWideman]

On the other hand, women tend to be better at task requiring fine motor control - such as shooting firearms. Now what?

[Beerina]

...and probably vehicle type plays a factor, too. Men tend to get larger and more powerful vehicles. (Or do they? :) )

[wolfgirl]

I think it's all about tendencies and predispositions and generatlities, but there are certainly truths out there.

Of course, not all women are (insert generality here), but it can be said that, in general, more women tend to be (insert generality here) than men.

I don't ever want us to get to the point in society where we don't realize and acknowledge that there are differences between men and women. That doesn't mean better or worse, just different. And that doesn't mean that all men are a and all women are b, but rather that those are tendencies and likelihoods.

I, for example, don't like to buy or shop for shoes. I think they all look silly and only want to wear sneakers or sandals all the time. I have to have a few pair of dressy shoes for weddings, funerals, job interviews, etc., but those are necessities and not for fun. I hate them. However, it would be foolish to say that most women don't like shoes. Almost all women I know love shoes. So the generality "women love shoes" is for the most part true. We all know that doesn't mean every single woman on the planet loves shoes. Nor does it mean that some men don't love shoes. We get it.

In the same way, then, can't we say "women are better at this task, while men are better at that task" without everyone getting all bent out of shape and saying "not all women!" and so on?

[skeptifem]

In the same way, then, can't we say "women are better at this task, while men are better at that task" without everyone getting all bent out of shape and saying "not all women!" and so on?

i for one think its important for differences that are a result of social programming to be aknowledged for that rather than being attributed to biological sex. If we all just keep pretending that the way things are for most people is because of their nature nothing will ever change. Its an amazingly effective tool of oppression to act like negetive things about women (or races) are part of their nature.

[Wavicle]

If women are more prone to accidents than men, why has my auto insurance rate always been lower than my husband's?

Insurance companies insure you per unit of time (generally 6 months or a year). The actuarial tables for women and men per year push men's insurance higher. It's all buried in the statistics there.

Asking how many miles you commute is just another adjusting factor on another table.

If they insured you "per 10,000 miles driven" it might be a bit different.

[Careyp74]

Yes, but the point was that you can't compare women who drive X miles vs. men who drive 1.7X miles when comparing accident rates. It's apples and oranges.

Whether worse or better, they need to compare similar driving experience of men and women. That includes not just average miles for the last year, but total driving experience over their whole life so far.

I agree with your arguments, just not the one comment about men are worse drivers because women would have a better than 5.1 rate if driving the same amount. I don't want my girlfriend using this argument against me thinking that there was valid data behind it :)

[Dorian Gray]

do you think its inherent or a result of social programming?

i wasnt raised to be very girly, and the differences between myself and women who were are frustrating for me. i hate the word 'women' being used in place of 'women in general' or 'most women'. I dont think you realize you are addressing every woman when you use that sort of phrasing. I am sick of being lumped in with a bunch of people that I usually dont have anything in common w/ besides having similar reproductive organs.

its especially **** when negetive stereotypes of men (prisons are full of violent/sexually violent male offenders) being shared as a "men are ____" sort of statement would NEVER fly because of how disrespectful it is. its not *********** cool to talk about any large group in such a fashion because its disrespectful in addition to being completely inaccurate.

I know! That's why you never see men being made fun of in home product commercials, or sitcoms where the woman is smarter than the man, or shows where women hit men in the crotch... Oh, wait a minute.

[Zygar]

I know! That's why you never see men being made fun of in home product commercials, or sitcoms where the woman is smarter than the man, or shows where women hit men in the crotch... Oh, wait a minute.

Just because there are negative stereotypes against both sexes, doesn't mean that the stereotypes are valid. The "women are smarter than men" stereotype is really popular, lately. And is seriously upsets me. Talk about reinforcing sexist viewpoints...

[AliasN]

I agree Zygar. Another thing that totally shocks me is when a famous man is found to be physically abused by his wife. Generally it's treated with distain and much laughter by morning radio show hosts. "Oh har har, supposedly Liza Minelli beat David Gest!"

Whether the allegations are true or not, the seriousness of it is never really brought up. Making it even harder for average men to get out of situations like that (and it DOES happen).

I don't agree with the article in the OP (it's beyond stupid), but I also don't like the current trend of simply flipping the stereotypes (like women in commercials treating men like sex objects) instead of getting rid of them all together. It smacks of childishness to me.

[Damien Evans]

I have also seen it suggested that aspergers is an excessively male brain.

so then, my brain is actually a raving he-man?

[bluess]

so then, my brain is actually a raving he-man?

Brings new meaning to "By the power of Greyskull!", doesn't it?