Ahmadinejad visits Iraq, hand it over please

[Policenaut]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/03/03/iraq.iran/index.html

"We believe that the forces which crossed oceans and thousands of kilometers to come to this region, should leave this region and hand over the affairs to the people's and government of this region," Ahmadinejad said.

Let's hand it over to Iran. They'll take over the country properly I think.

[dudalb]

I could almost want that to happen,since Iran will then have the wonderful experience in Iraq we are now having.
The only reason I oppose this is no way I want Iran up againt the borders of Saudi Arabia. That is a guaranteed way to start something that will make anything we have seen in the Mideast so far look like a minor Saloon brawl.

[rjh01]

Well Iraq tried to take over Iran in the 1980s. Now it is the turn of Iran to do the same.

[Zep]

Let 'em have it. (1) It's their region, (2) it's back to status quo, and (3) they won't have Uncle Sam to kick around any more.

Big A is saying this because he expects the US to be equally belligerent in response and announce they will oppose his idea. Thus giving everyone someone else to hate while making himself out to be the good guy. It's trying to play to the others' weaknesses, while deflecting badness.

A response opposite to what he expects would turn the focus back on him. Iraq would not look kindly on the implied threat of take-over, Iran would be left hung out to dry having made that implied threat. And the US would not be the bad guy everyone hates. Remember: My enemy's enemy is my friend...only until they don't have that enemy any more.

[Puppycow]

I could almost want that to happen,since Iran will then have the wonderful experience in Iraq we are now having.
The only reason I oppose this is no way I want Iran up againt the borders of Saudi Arabia. That is a guaranteed way to start something that will make anything we have seen in the Mideast so far look like a minor Saloon brawl.

What he said.

Policenaut: Do you think that Iran would have a better time than we did?

I don't see occupying Iraq as a net positive for us, and I don't see why it would be for Iran either.

[Cincinnatus]

Seem he has a plan to make us look bad.

[Zep]

Duh!

And if we can all see it, why can't people who can do something about it?

[Policenaut]

Policenaut: Do you think that Iran would have a better time than we did?


In the beginning possibly until some Iranian soldiers are killed by IEDs or suicide bombers. Then they might start some good old fashioned carpet bombing campaigns and wholesale murder. In the end I don't know what Iran will do. There are many positive and negative consequences for them if they go in. But I think it becomes an easy choice for them if they adopt a policy of civilian=enemy in Iraq.

[Darth Rotor]

Well Iraq tried to take over Iran in the 1980s.

Nope. Saddam's limited objective was a border region between the two nations. Take a look at globalsecurity.org for a nice analysis.

A few bits:

By 1842, border hostilities between Iran and Turkey again created the possibility of war. Great Britain and Russia had met in Erzerum to clearly define the 733 mile border between Iran and what is now Iraq since this question had not been resolved in 1823. The Second Treaty of Erzerum was signed in 1847 to demarcate the border.

Iraq is essentially land-locked except for a 40 mile coastline on the Persian Gulf.11 Access to the Persian Gulf from the second largest city of Basra is extremely important to the economy of the country. Basra is accessed by ship via only one river -- the Shatt al-Arab.

One issue addressed in the 1847 Erzerum Treaty was the Shatt al-Arab waterway. The Shatt al-Arab is formed by the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers and proceeds south for 130 miles where it empties into the Persian Gulf. A total of 55 miles of the Shatt forms a common border between Iran and Iraq. Iran was given freedom of navigation of the river by this second treaty.

Navigational rights and ownership of the Shatt al-Arab have been sources of controversy ever since because the river is an important artery for both countries and affects their economic stability.
When civil war threatened Iraq in 1975, Hussein was forced to do something to stop it. The 1975 Algiers Accord was signed wherein the Shah agreed to stop backing the Kurds in exchange for setting the thalweg, or center, of the Shatt al-Arab as the boundary between the two countries.
Saddam Hussein had to justify the invasion of Iran in September 1980. He outlined his initial aims by demanding that Iran:
1) Recognize Iraq's legitimate and sovereign rights over its land and waters, particularly the Shatt al-Arab.

2) Refrain from interfering in Iraq's internal affairs.

3) Adhere to the principle of good neighborly relations.

4) Return the Iranian occupied islands in the Persian Gulf to the United Arab Emirates.

However, there were other objectives that were not so clearly and officially stated.

Iraq wanted to secure its Baathist government from Khomeini's stated intent to overthrow it.

To secure Iraq's borders, especially near Qasr e-Shirin and Mehran, which cover the main Iranian approach to Baghdad.

To demonstrate that Iraq, not Iran, was the dominant power in the Gulf, and to enhance Iraqi status in the Arab world.

To destroy Iranian military power while Iran was weakened by its revolution and cut off from U.S. supplies and support.

To create conditions to facilitate the overthrow of Khomeini. (DR note: The Islamic Revolution was a political threat to each secular, or Sunni, or aristocratic, Arab government in the region. This seems to be forgotten as time goes on.)

To 'liberate' Arab Khuzistan and secure Iraqi access to the Gulf.

To demonstrate to all Gulf nations that Iraq was strong and able to lead the Arab states.

Note that none of these aims included conquering and taking over Iran.

The initial offensive in 1980:
These attacks were to support a main thrust to the south. The Iranian province of Khuzistan contained 80 percent of Iranian oil installations. The Iraqis considered Khuzistan an Arab province, since 2 million of the 3.5 million inhabitants were Click here to view image
Arab. They believed the province should have been part of Iraq
when the Ottoman Empire was carved up after World War I.
With this justification, the 1990 invasion of Kuwait can be seen as less of a surprise. ;)

DR

[ImaginalDisc]

I could almost want that to happen,since Iran will then have the wonderful experience in Iraq we are now having.
The only reason I oppose this is no way I want Iran up againt the borders of Saudi Arabia. That is a guaranteed way to start something that will make anything we have seen in the Mideast so far look like a minor Saloon brawl.

I object to this proposal. Without the high standards set by the United States, cities might be cordoned off, holy places might be damaged, people with no connection to terrorism might be abducted from their homes, places of business, and places of worship with total disregard for their rights to know what they are being arrested for, and without any evidence. People could be tortured while their torturers simultaneously deny it happening and insisting that they be allowed to continue. People might be whisked out of the country to be held by unsavory governments for treatments too barbarous for their captors to exact on them. Anyone tangentially associated with the old regime, including rank and file soldiers, would be fired and denied employment creating a large segment of the populace who are both desperate and resentful.

It would be anarchy.

[Crossbow]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/03/03/iraq.iran/index.html

"We believe that the forces which crossed oceans and thousands of kilometers to come to this region, should leave this region and hand over the affairs to the people's and government of this region," Ahmadinejad said.

Let's hand it over to Iran. They'll take over the country properly I think.

I expect that within a few years, Iran and Iraq will become serious partners and that will substantially change how OPEC does business with the USA.

Yet another fine example of how George W. Bush and his stupid war have really, really screwed things up is in the works.