The hamstringing of Canada

[Badger]

At the world climate summit, on now, Vladimir Putin has indicated that Russia may not partake in the Kyoto Protocol.

The government of Canada, however, will abide by this protocol.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030929.wkyoto0929/BNStory/National/

In my view, this will limit the economic viability of Canada, as our largest trading partner, the USA, will not sign the treaty, and if Russia doesn't, then they can undercut Canada as well, effectively squeezing it out of many economic markets.

Anyone got any comments?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Badger
In my view, this will limit the economic viability of Canada...

Anyone got any comments?

You want economic viability? Develop Baffin Island as a beach resort. :p

[Segnosaur]

It should also be noted that many European countries (you know, the ones that seem to want Kyoto implemented so much) may very well miss their targets:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2996219.stm

[Charlie Monoxide]

this will limit the economic viability of Canada
Hmmm, Canada eh? Isn't that the country in North America that doesn't have a deficit?

Charlie (canuckian bias) Monoxide

[Badger]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


You want economic viability? Develop Baffin Island as a beach resort. :p

SHHHH! Not so loud!

Sheila Copps*, Alan Rock*, Paul Martin* or John Manley* may hear you, and all of a sudden there's an Inuit Cabana Boy employment program overrunning its budget! Or would that be Jane Stewart*? Heck, they all look the same to me now.


*For non Canadians, these are some of the "best and brightest" in the current ruling party.....


And, yes, I'm an Alberta Redneck whose income is Oilpatch based, in case it wasn't obvious from the above rant.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Charlie Monoxide

Hmmm, Canada eh? Isn't that the country in North America that doesn't have a deficit?

Charlie (canuckian bias) Monoxide

Its also the country with a much lower average standard of living (29,400 per capita GDP in Canada, vs. 37,600 in US, CIA world fact book) and a higher unemployment rate (7.6% in Canada vs. 5.8% in the US).

[P.S.A.]

Any comments; just one really... look at these notes on CO2 output for the year 2,000.

http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/trends/emis/tre_coun.htm

Think about who the really big polluters are now. Think about how the rest of the world, who have the really big populations, would like to have the same living standard as those big polluters, which means industrialising to the same level as the top polluters. And now think of what China (population 1,265.5k, all 1998 figures btw) and India (pop. 983k) alone consuming and polluting at the level of the US (pop. 260k, but currently 24% of CO2 output) would do to those emission levels....

And then finally, think about the long term consequences (assuming you aren't a Global Warming denying ideologue) for the planet. Including those who actually do try and cut emissions. And then weep for the species, and for how self-destructively selfish we are...

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Segnosaur


Its also the country with a much lower average standard of living (29,400 per capita GDP in Canada, vs. 37,600 in US, CIA world fact book) and a higher unemployment rate (7.6% in Canada vs. 5.8% in the US).

Just out of curiousity Seg, why do you still live in Canada? I've never heard you utter a favourable word about it, while your admiration for the US seems to be without limit.

And I'm not asking this in an angry "If you don't love this country get the hell out" tone. I'm just very curious since I've had several opportunities to work and live in the USA (including extended work terms in Los Angeles) and I've stayed in Canada by choice.
But, if I had the disdain for Canada that you seem to have I would have stayed away permanently.

Again, I'm not asking this question in a confrontational way (I am Canadian after all!!) but I'm at a loss to explain why someone would choose to stay in a place he seems to have such a low opinion of.

[Charlie Monoxide]

Canada has always had a higher unemployment rate because Canadians are more creative at "not working", at least officially.

Charlie (I'm "not working" right now) Monoxide

[sorgoth]

I know... a suprising amount of people that make pretty much nothing on paper, but get along just fine. They might even be classified as 'unemployed'.

[corplinx]

Why does Canada fear kyoto? They can just live off american goods. Heck, the industrial revolution in america polluted our lakes and rivers and gave canada cheap goods.


Be glad..........

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by P.S.A.
Any comments; just one really... look at these notes on CO2 output for the year 2,000.

It's misleading to go by CO₂ "output" alone. For example, the USA has vast stretches of protected forest which act as a carbon sink, unlike Western Europe.

Also, much of the CO₂ "output" is from agricultural production. If the agricultural products are exported, why should the producer not the consumer be credited with the output? The level of production is driven by demand.

It's all very well to talk about us selfish fat yuppies driving around in our SUVs looking for a McDonald's, but don't expect farmers to be hitching their plows to trolley cars, even when we finally get a Democrat in the White House again. :rolleyes:

It was the US senate that unanimously rejected the Kyoto treaty in 1997. Yes Al Gore said he'd bring it up again, but what good is that?

[Jon_in_london]

Isnt it better to look at CO2 output per capita rather than as a total?



1 ANTARCTIC FISHERIES 61.12
2 U.S. VIRGIN ISLANDS 29.91
3 QATAR 19.65
4 NETHERLAND ANTILLES 12.61
5 BAHRAIN 7.70
6 GUAM 7.17
7 UNITED ARAB EMIRATES 6.17
8 KUWAIT 5.97
9 TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO 5.58
10 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 5.40


Hmmmm???


11 LUXEMBOURG 5.31
12 FALKLAND ISLANDS (MALVINAS) 5.24
13 ARUBA 5.20
14 BRUNEI (DARUSSALAM) 5.08
15 WAKE ISLAND 5.02
16 AUSTRALIA 4.91
17 SAUDI ARABIA 4.77
18 SINGAPORE 3.90
19 CANADA 3.87
20 FAEROE ISLANDS 3.84
21 PALAU 3.48
22 ESTONIA 3.19
23 CZECH REPUBLIC 3.16
24 NAURU 3.07
25 IRELAND 3.04
26 NORWAY 3.03
27 LIBYAN ARAB JAMAHIRIYAH 2.95
28 ISRAEL 2.85
29 FINLAND 2.82
30 BELGIUM 2.72
31 GREENLAND 2.71
32 RUSSIAN FEDERATION 2.69
33 TAIWAN 2.68
34 MONTSERRAT 2.68
35 GERMANY 2.61
36 UNITED KINGDOM 2.59
37 JAPAN 2.55
38 REPUBLIC OF KOREA 2.47
39 GREECE 2.44
40 NETHERLANDS 2.39
41 CYPRUS 2.32
42 DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF KOREA 2.31
43 NEW ZEALAND 2.28
44 DENMARK 2.28
45 OMAN 2.25
46 KAZAKHSTAN 2.22
47 GIBRALTAR 2.20
48 NEW CALEDONIA 2.16
49 ST. PIERRE & MIQUELON 2.15
50 POLAND 2.13
51 ICELAND 2.10
52 CAYMAN ISLANDS 2.05
53 AUSTRIA 2.05
54 SOUTH AFRICA 2.04
55 ITALY (INCLUDING SAN MARINO) 2.02
56 BERMUDA 2.01
57 SLOVENIA 2.01
58 TURKMENISTAN 1.99
59 MALTA 1.96
60 SPAIN 1.95
61 UKRAINE 1.89
62 SLOVAKIA 1.79
63 VENEZUELA 1.78
64 MALAYSIA 1.69
65 FRANCE (INCLUDING MONACO) 1.68
66 PORTUGAL 1.63
67 BAHAMAS 1.62
68 BELARUS 1.61
69 FRENCH GUIANA 1.52
70 MACEDONIA 1.50
71 ANTIGUA & BARBUDA 1.48
72 MARTINIQUE 1.47
73 HUNGARY 1.47
74 SWITZERLAND 1.46
75 BULGARIA 1.45
76 SWEDEN 1.44
77 ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN 1.33
78 HONG KONG 1.33
79 SURINAME 1.33
80 BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINIA 1.32
81 UZBEKISTAN 1.31
82 CROATIA 1.22
83 BARBADOS 1.20
84 MEXICO 1.19
85 LEBANON 1.18
86 AMERICAN SAMOA 1.15
87 JAMAICA 1.12
88 FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA 1.07
89 CHILE 1.07
90 ROMANIA 1.05
91 GUADELOUPE 1.05
92 MACAU 1.02
93 ARGENTINA 1.02
94 AZERBAIJAN 0.99
95 TURKEY 0.93
96 REUNION 0.92
97 IRAQ 0.91
98 SYRIAN ARAB REPUBLIC 0.91
99 LITHUANIA 0.88
100 THAILAND 0.87
101 JORDAN 0.86
102 MONGOLIA 0.86
103 BELIZE 0.85
104 DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 0.81
105 ALGERIA 0.80
106 GABON 0.79
107 SEYCHELLES 0.76
108 CUBA 0.75
109 ST. KITTS-NEVIS 0.69
110 LATVIA 0.67
111 SAINT HELENA 0.67
112 MAURITIUS 0.67
113 BRITISH VIRGIN ISLANDS 0.66
114 FRENCH POLYNESIA 0.64
115 BOTSWANA 0.64
116 SAINT LUCIA 0.62
117 PUERTO RICO 0.61
118 EGYPT 0.61
119 PANAMA 0.61
120 CHINA (MAINLAND) 0.60
121 GRENADA 0.57
122 GUYANA 0.57
123 ECUADOR 0.55
124 TUNISIA 0.53
125 MALDIVES 0.50
126 BRAZIL 0.50
127 REPUBLIC OF MOLDOVA 0.49
128 URUGUAY 0.44
129 COOK ISLANDS 0.42
130 NIUE 0.42
131 ST. VINCENT & THE GRENADINES 0.41
132 COSTA RICA 0.39
133 DOMINICA 0.38
134 COLOMBIA 0.38
135 BOLIVIA 0.36
136 INDONESIA 0.35
137 MOROCCO 0.35
138 TONGA 0.33
139 GEORGIA 0.32
140 ZIMBABWE 0.32
141 MAURITANIA 0.31
142 PERU 0.31
143 INDIA 0.29
144 EL SALVADOR 0.29
145 PHILIPPINES 0.28
146 NAMIBIA 0.27
147 WESTERN SAHARA 0.26
148 KYRGYZSTAN 0.26
149 ARMENIA 0.25
150 ALBANIA 0.25
151 FIJI 0.24
152 GUATEMALA 0.24
153 SAMOA 0.22
154 PAKISTAN 0.21
155 HONDURAS 0.20
156 VIET NAM 0.20
157 NICARAGUA 0.20
158 PARAGUAY 0.18
159 SAO TOME & PRINCIPE 0.18
160 TAJIKISTAN 0.18
161 COTE D IVOIRE 0.17
162 DJIBOUTI 0.17
163 CONGO 0.16
164 SRI LANKA 0.14
165 PAPUA NEW GUINEA 0.14
166 ANGOLA 0.13
167 YEMEN 0.13
168 EQUATORIAL GUINEA 0.12
169 REPUBLIC OF CAMEROON 0.12
170 SENEGAL 0.12
171 SWAZILAND 0.11
172 VANUATU 0.11
173 TOGO 0.11
174 SOLOMON ISLANDS 0.10
175 CAPE VERDE 0.09
176 GHANA 0.09
177 NIGERIA 0.09
178 KENYA 0.08
179 KIRIBATI 0.08
180 BENIN 0.07
181 GUINEA BISSAU 0.06
182 BANGLADESH 0.06
183 GAMBIA 0.05
184 MYANMAR 0.05
185 BHUTAN 0.05
186 HAITI 0.05
187 ZAMBIA 0.05
188 SUDAN 0.05
189 ERITREA 0.05
190 GUINEA 0.04
191 NEPAL 0.04
192 MADAGASCAR 0.04
193 LIBERIA 0.04
194 SIERRA LEONE 0.04
195 UNITED REPUBLIC OF TANZANIA 0.03
196 COMOROS 0.03
197 NIGER 0.03
198 BURKINA FASO 0.02
199 LAO PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC 0.02
200 RWANDA 0.02
201 CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC 0.02
202 UGANDA 0.02
203 MALAWI 0.02
204 MOZAMBIQUE 0.02
205 ZAIRE 0.01
206 MALI 0.01
207 AFGHANISTAN 0.01
208 CAMBODIA 0.01
209 BURUNDI 0.01
210 CHAD 0.00
211 TURKS AND CAICOS ISLANDS 0.00
212 ETHIOPIA .

[Badger]

Originally posted by corplinx
Why does Canada fear kyoto? They can just live off american goods. Heck, the industrial revolution in america polluted our lakes and rivers and gave canada cheap goods.


Be glad..........

Not to speak for all Canadians here, but my answers to your question are the following:

-The CO2/Global Warming link is far from substantiated.

-Canada's contribution, compared to the rest of the world, is akin to spitting in the ocean.

-The economic impact of adhering stringently to the targets set will effectively decimate the Canadian economy (reduction in production to meet targets, and increase in equipment costs for more efficient machinery)

Of note is that the energy industry in Canada has made significant advances in emission reductions of all sorts, not just CO2.

Jon_in_London, I find your table most interesting. As a bit of background, please note that it is colder in Canada than most other countries in that list, therefore we must use extra energy to keep warm. There is also the need for greater transportation, due to our large area and low population. (ie. the corner store is farther away, on average)

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by KelvinG


Just out of curiousity Seg, why do you still live in Canada? I've never heard you utter a favourable word about it, while your admiration for the US seems to be without limit.

...

Again, I'm not asking this question in a confrontational way (I am Canadian after all!!) but I'm at a loss to explain why someone would choose to stay in a place he seems to have such a low opinion of.

That's a very good question, and I've often wondered that myself. Many years ago, I used to be very patriotic, before I became quite delusioned and cynical.

I've been in the work force for about 10 years. Prior to that, I probably wouldn't have been able to move to the US. When the tech boom hit, I had actually looked into moving to the US. (I probably would have been eligible for an easy work permit.) What kept me here was a combination of 2 things... Personal ties (my family is here, as is my house and all my finances), and the fact that we had a provincial government that was halfways competent. (Well, that and the fact that I'm probably a gutless coward...)

Unfortunately, we seem to be heading towards a change in provincial government which could be quite devestating to the economy. And, with the slow down in technology, career opportunities in the US are much more limited. So, in a sense I'm trapped.

Oh, and I don't admire the US "without limit". I think there are problems down there too. Its just that they seem to rely on a spirit of self-reliance that we seem to lack here.