Another Murder Brought to You by The Religion of Peace

[Tony]

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=448384 ...full article


A strict Muslim who slit his daughter's throat because he believed she had become too Westernised pleaded with a judge yesterday to sentence him to death.

When Abdalla Yones learnt that his 16-year-old child, Heshu, had begun seeing a Christian teenager he stabbed her 11 times. After breaking down the door of the bathroom where she had barricaded herself in, he slit her throat leaving her to bleed to death.



At least she is in heaven with her 72 virgins.

[Ralph]

An "honor killing"..................Cutting the throat of a 16 year old girl....your own daughter... for dating someone with different religious beliefs.............

I'd like to know how you get "honor" of of something like that.....

[Mycroft]

I was just about to post something like, be fair, Christians have their loonies too. when I read the article and found this:

With an estimated 12 such deaths in Britain last year, Scotland Yard vowed to seek out those who collude in covering up for the killers.

Twelve such deaths in the last year!? Is this an epidemic?

[Theodore Kurita]

Originally posted by Tony
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=448384 ...full article





At least she is in heaven with her 72 virgins.



Apparently you are the biggest bigot on this forum... generalizing a religion over one man's actions!!!


You are as bad as the antisemites that wonder around this country.


Ad Hominem's Intentional

[gnome]

Yes, Tony, I have to wonder what your point is...

that Islam is evil generally?

Or do you have a point?

[Skeptic]

Apparently you are the biggest bigot on this forum... generalizing a religion over one man's actions!!!

The problem is, his actions in this case ARE what islam says to do. This man is not a bad man who happens to be a muslim, like Ted Bundy was a bad man who happened to be a catholic; this man is a GOOD muslim who takes his religious obligations seriously--and that includes, of course, "honor killing" of his daughter for displeasing him.

The religion is relevant since the man openly claims that his actions ARE his duty as a good muslim--and he is right, since indeed the Koran and Hadith, on which the Sharia (islamic religion law) is based, say just that. Such "honor killings", as part of the brutal subjugation of woman under islam, are the rule, not the exception, in the muslim world. It goes together with the burqa, barring women from school, stoning adultresses, and other niceties of the same sort.

This brutality is usually glossed over in the west by such euphemisms as saying that islam is a "traditional society", in order not to appear "racist" or, God forbid, say that some religions are more humane and modern than others. But that doesn't change the fact that, as far as women's rights are concerned, the most ADVANCED muslim lands are barely where the west was in 1890, and the more "traditional" (read: primitive) ones are still in the 7th century.

[Zep]

Could we please have someone quote us that part of the Koran and/or Hadith that specifies this action.

My own understanding is that this sort of thing is more an Arabic "tradition" than to do with "religion", in a similar fashion to "fish on Fridays" and "Mass on Sundays".

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by Zep

My own understanding is that this sort of thing is more an Arabic "tradition" than to do with "religion", in a similar fashion to "fish on Fridays" and "Mass on Sundays".

Yeah, "Stone your wife Wendsdays" and "slit your daughters throat Tuesdays" are much more acceptable.

Does it matter? The whole culture is f*cked in my opinion.

[neutrino_cannon]

Originally posted by Mycroft
I was just about to post something like, be fair, Christians have their loonies too. when I read the article and found this:



Twelve such deaths in the last year!? Is this an epidemic?

What an excellent way to wipe out one's own culture!

I cannot personally sanction any culture or reigion that allows and encourages such atrocities.

*edit

Islam is obviously not a homogeouns religion, it has it's easonable people, and it's whacky people. I can condemn only the elements that allow atrocities, if it ain't hurting anyone, then it's nobody's but your buisiness, even if your distant relatives are crazy.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Theodore Kurita


Apparently you are the biggest bigot on this forum... generalizing a religion over one man's actions!!!



And you're one of the biggest, most ignorant PC nazis. I will remember your dislike and persecution of free thought and free speech from now on. Continue with your contrived PC indignation, while you do, I'll continue to laugh at your stupidity, ignorance and inability to think for yourself.

You are as bad as the antisemites that wonder around this country.


I guess that lowers me to your level.

[Tony]

Originally posted by gnome
Yes, Tony, I have to wonder what your point is...

that Islam is evil generally?

Or do you have a point?

My point is that contrary to what the pc lemmings would have you believe, fundie Islam is not a religion of peace. And no, I dont base my judgement on this single event.

[fishbob]

Apparently you are the biggest bigot on this forum... generalizing a religion over one man's actions!!!

OK - let's generalize all religions over this one man's actions. They are all evil. You happy now?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Theodore Kurita
Apparently you are the biggest bigot on this forum... generalizing a religion over one man's actions!!!

:confused:

It may not be inherent to Islam, but it is certainly not merely "the actions of one man".

It is an ingrained part of his culture, not an individual aberration, and I daresay was long before before Muhammad.

There's quite a bit of controversy going on in some Muslim countries right now about changing the laws to get tough on honor killings.

Nevertheless, those who condone honor killing do indeed justify it in the name of religious morality. Therefore it's part of some folks' religion, whether it's "Real Islam (tm)" or not.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Mycroft

Twelve such deaths in the last year!? Is this an epidemic?

We dont know how many of those deaths were related to Islam.

Some Hindus still have a penchant for widow burning....

[LW]

Originally posted by Zep
Could we please have someone quote us that part of the Koran and/or Hadith that specifies this action.


I don't know anything about Hadith. The only relevant part of Koran that I found was in Sura 2 (Cow's Sura), its verse 221:

And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.


No mention of killing, there. The Finnish translation that I used to find the Sura has "your daughters" in place of "(believeing women)".

[LW]

Originally posted by Zep

My own understanding is that this sort of thing is more an Arabic "tradition" than to do with "religion", in a similar fashion to "fish on Fridays" and "Mass on Sundays".

Forgot to add that for many people "tradition" and "religion" mean the same thing. For them, "honor killings" are a part of their religion. It is not a part of religion for all Muslims, though.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Some Hindus still have a penchant for widow burning....

In the UK? I don't think so. :rolleyes:

[gnome]

Originally posted by Tony
My point is that contrary to what the pc lemmings would have you believe, fundie Islam is not a religion of peace. And no, I dont base my judgement on this single event.

Who's saying that Islamic Fundamentalism is a religion of peace?

The point made by those that you label "PC Lemmings", I believe, is not to assume that all Muslims are fundamentalist. Anyone know the proportions?

[Larspeart]

I'll stick up for Tony on this one (shock!).

I am of the belief (and it is mine only. you're free to believe what you will) that there is something inherently wrong with themuslim faith, in that it seems to harbor and cultivate this kind of behavior so often.

Look, no religion has got it right, and most are pretty screwed up on some level or another, but look at the facts. Look at the statistics. This kind of crap happens CONSTANTLY. Any religion that treats women like it does, stomps its feet on civil rights like it does, and promotes terrorism, suicide/suicide-killings has problems on the most basest of levels.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Tony
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=448384 ...full article





At least she is in heaven with her 72 virgins.

I guess you would have judged the muslim religion better if it involved suicide.

Originally posted by Tony on September 18, 2003
If she [Hillary Clinton] really loves america, she'll commit suicide before she has a chance to run.

[DavidJames]

Married people are whacking each other all the time in the good ole USA. Admittedly the guilty party doesn't usually blame their religious beliefs. While I don't have any statistics, considering the huge percentage of American's who profess to believe in "God", I'm pretty sure a number of the whackers would be claim to believe in God as well. So what's the difference between them whacking each other and this guy, the spouse is just as dead. I wonder what the rate of spousal homicide is among various religious groups.

Larspeart, you seem to have the stats, what are they?

Edited to change very to various

[Tony]

What's your point Crossbow?

[Tony]

Originally posted by gnome


Who's saying that Islamic Fundamentalism is a religion of peace?


No one in particular, but it has been said in the media.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony


No one in particular, but it has been said in the media.

Where in the media has it been said that Islamic fundamentalism is a religion of peace?
I know that after 9/11 great effort was taken to show more moderate Islamic worship as being peaceful, but who has ever tried to sell fundamenalist Islam as peaceful and loving. For hard core funadamentalists, violence seems to be par for the course.
I'm really curious who has tried to argue otherwise.

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG


Where in the media has it been said that Islamic fundamentalism is a religion of peace?


I remember Peter Jennings commenting that Islam was a peaceful religion.

For hard core funadamentalists, violence seems to be par for the course.

Sadly, in islam, the hard-core fundamentalism is the par.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Tony


I remember Peter Jennings commenting that Islam was a peaceful religion.

For hard core funadamentalists, violence seems to be par for the course.

Sadly, in islam, the hard-core fundamentalist is the par.

Are you certain that hard-core fundamentalism is par for the course or do they simply get the most attention because of their beliefs and actions?
I'm not asking because I'm saying your wrong, I'm just not really sure myself.
I'd be curious how many practicing Muslims think it's OK that the father in the story you cited slit his daughter's throat. According to your assessments of Islam, more Muslims should be in agreement with his actions than against them.

[rikzilla]

Buddhism and Taoism are perhaps the only truly peaceful religions I've ever heard of.

Islam is a vicious religion. Just because it has it's "love your brother" bits doesn't make it a "religion of peace".

Replace Islam with Christianity or Judaism and the sentence remains true.

Fact is that people everywhere are united by their desire to remake the world into a better place. The difference between Christians, et al...and Buddhists or Taoists is that the latter religions refuse to kill to make their dreams come true...while the former ones would kill however many it takes to make theirs come true. Sad $hit.... :(

-z

[TruthSeeker]

Rik,

If we accept what you say (although I'm sure there are some who would disagree. Personally, I don't know enough about Islam to decide.), what is the mechanism for the difference between (Islam-Christian-Jewish) and (Buddhist-Taoist)? Does it come from the general belief held by each faith of the value of other persons? of non believers? Is it a consequence of the idea of a personal god?

I'm also curious of the three religions you identify as "vicious", whether Judiasm really belongs? Is this based on Hebrew Bible writings or the actual practices of Jews today?

Thanks

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Rik,

If we accept what you say (although I'm sure there are some who would disagree. Personally, I don't know enough about Islam to decide.), what is the mechanism for the difference between (Islam-Christian-Jewish) and (Buddhist-Taoist)? Does it come from the general belief held by each faith of the value of other persons? of non believers? Is it a consequence of the idea of a personal god?

I'm also curious of the three religions you identify as "vicious", whether Judiasm really belongs? Is this based on Hebrew Bible writings or the actual practices of Jews today?

Thanks

Maybe it just comes from my reading of the old testament. I don't mean to say the "all Jews/Christians/Islamists are vicious. We all know that's not true. I based my assertion upon the myriad parts of the OT and Koran that advise us to kill in the name of God. The Buddhists and Taoists do not tell us to do these things. It's really as simple as that. I may be wrong, and would loved to be proved wrong. Personally I feel like Rodney King once famously said: "Why can't we all just get along?" Sadly, it's not that easy. Religious tomes that advise the devout to slaughter the infidel don't really help much.

-z

[gnome]

Originally posted by Tony


I remember Peter Jennings commenting that Islam was a peaceful religion.

For hard core funadamentalists, violence seems to be par for the course.

Sadly, in islam, the hard-core fundamentalism is the par.

Did he say Islam or fundamentalist Islam? I feel like I'm trying to make a distinction and you're trying to cloud it.

Would you say Fundamentalism is the Christian mainstream in America?

Does anyone have statistics on moderate vs. fundamentalist/militant islamists?

[P.S.A.]

Tum ti tum... I read this article earlier on the Guardian web page.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1052382,00.html

And looky here, the police actually draw a different conclusion from Tony....

"Scotland Yard yesterday said there had been 12 "honour killings" across different communities in the last year in Britain.

Police define an honour killing as a murder motivated by perceived dishonour to a family or community and stress that it is not limited to Islamic communities. There have been examples of Sikh and Christian honour killings."

The various pagan Earth gods were rather particular to human flesh as well, you know. Haiwaiin volcano sacrifices to Pele anyone? Scientology of course, that's "fair use"... but we needn't go into the violent religion that is Capitalism... and think of all those people killed for the Marx god, it's cosmic opposite...

You know, for someone who used a Clockwork Orange avatar, it's amazing Tony seems ignorant of the violence contained within other religions. Don't you remember the scenes of Alex rhapsodying over Biblical violence in that film, Tone? Tell you what, if we strap you down ala Orange and make you read the Koran, do you think you'd become more violent, or less? Or is it not that simple...?

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by P.S.A.


You know, for someone who used a Clockwork Orange avatar, it's amazing Tony seems ignorant of the violence contained within other religions. Don't you remember the scenes of Alex rhapsodying over Biblical violence in that film, Tone? Tell you what, if we strap you down ala Orange and make you read the Koran, do you think you'd become more violent, or less? Or is it not that simple...?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I'm getting to like you PSA....in-spite of myself.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Tony
What's your point Crossbow?

That was my way of showing everyone how stupid you can be.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Crossbow


That was my way of showing everyone how stupid you can be.

You failed, and in the process showed everyone how stupid you can be.

[Tony]

Originally posted by P.S.A.

And looky here, the police actually draw a different conclusion from Tony....


What conclusion did they come to?

You know, for someone who used a Clockwork Orange avatar, it's amazing Tony seems ignorant of the violence contained within other religions. Don't you remember the scenes of Alex rhapsodying over Biblical violence in that film, Tone?


I never had a Clockwork Orange avatar, Ive never seen the movie and I am not ignorant of violence in other religions. Damn, you cant be more wrong.

[P.S.A.]

I'm getting back to that thread shortly, so we'll see what you have to say about me there, you cad!

But just as interesting aside, the play for ...Orange actually comes to a different conclusion to the film, if you've not read it. The film has Alex re-programmed again to violence for use by the state. In the play, Alex basically settles down as he gets older, and muses that it is youth which is the cause of violence, and is thus natural... which is where the name comes from. Paraphrasing from memory, youth is something dynamic and illogical, like a clockwork orange he claims, and there will always be droogs wound like the springs inside the orange. So there we have it. The solution to violence is to ban youth. Make testosterone illegal until people can show they can handle it properly. Maybe raise the puberty age to 21? It'd have the added bonus of pissing Genghis off too, as he'd have no controversial topics to raise... Everyone wins!

[P.S.A.]

Yes you did. The bowler hatted figure with the left eye highlighted with spikes is Alex Delarge from A Clockwork Orange. I suspect you knew that, but hoped I wouldn't, being new. But I've been lurking for over a year though...

One last aside; the language used in ACO is a mixture of Russian and English, just doing a straight word for word swap.

Droog = Male Friend (padrooga is female friend)
Plot = Head
Tolchok = Blow (as in collision, being struck; Tolchok'ing in the film = a beating)
Bog = God (really!)

So there we have it.

[Tony]

Originally posted by P.S.A.
Yes you did. The bowler hatted figure with the left eye highlighted with spikes is Alex Delarge from A Clockwork Orange. I suspect you knew that, but hoped I wouldn't, being new. But I've been lurking for over a year though...



Thats news to me, I just chose that avatar because I thought it was a clever design.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Tony


You failed, and in the process showed everyone how stupid you can be.

I do not care what your assessment is. However, you may feel differently after reviewing the below you posted a little while ago which shows that you are also a liar as well as being stupid.

P.S.: Bonus points for to you for not knowing the source of your previous avatar!

Originally posted by Tony on September 23, 2003



You [Crossbow] are the one who was supporting Hussein’s regime, and you are the one who supported the oppression and murder of millions of Iraqis. I have articulated my points perfectly; I can’t help it if you are unable or unwilling to understand

[Tony]

Originally posted by Crossbow


I do not care what your assessment is.

Yes you do, you care a lot, other wise you would not have took the time to reply to what I said.

However, you may feel differently after reviewing the below you posted a little while ago which shows that you are also a liar as well as being stupid.


:roll: :roll:

Always the propagandist, being a crybaby leftist, such tactics come natural. Nice, dishonest way to take my quote out of context.

[Blue Monk]

I’m surprised no one has posted any similar passages from the Bible yet. I would if I knew where they were but I do know there are plenty to choose from.

I know of one passage that explicitly states that parents have the right to kill disrespectful children.

Untold horrors have been unleashed over the centuries by mush-brained devotees from the burning of witches to the inquisition to the slaughter of prostitutes to gay-bashing (make your own list).

The problem is clearly not solely an Islamic problem. Both Islam and Judea/Christian beliefs have some provisions somewhere within the text for the taking of human life for real or perceived crimes against God.

Most of the devout among us have enough snap to take these passages in context of the more primitive social structures in which they developed but there will always be the danger implicit in any religion that even hints at violence that those who follow that path will feel justified in wielding the power of life and death, and base that right on one of the more disturbing aspects of any zealot, namely the belief that they can’t be wrong.

Want to burn a witch, put someone on the rack, launch a Crusade, kill a queer or prostitute, kill an abortion doctor or perhaps fly a fuel-laden plane into an office building?

Well, I’m sure there’s a religion out there for you.

[Malachi151]

Maybe someone already pointed this out, but this happens in all religions in all cultures.

Not to long ago a woman in America killed her 3 children in the name of Christianity to "save them from the devil".

Obviously she was crazy.

Not too long ago a boy was killled in the process of excorizing the deamons out of him (autisim).

How many people, white and black have the KKK killed in the name of "preserving God's will"?

Geeze, wake up and look around a little.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


We dont know how many of those deaths were related to Islam.

Some Hindus still have a penchant for widow burning....

They suck too

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by rikzilla
Buddhism and Taoism are perhaps the only truly peaceful religions I've ever heard of.

Islam is a vicious religion. Just because it has it's "love your brother" bits doesn't make it a "religion of peace".

Replace Islam with Christianity or Judaism and the sentence remains true.


It was President Bush who made the "Islam is a religion of peace" speech before the first Ramadan dinner at the White House. He also said that we're not at war with a religion. This was right after the 911 massacres.

Plenty of Republican religious right types were very peeved at this speech.

I believe that this speech was mainly a response to the wave of lynchings that seemed to be brewing, but never materialized. The climate was very ugly the first few weeks after the attacks.

The comment wasn't about "PC moronism" at all. It was about maintaining public order in the USA and was a shrewd move.

Whether Islam really is a religion of peace doesn't enter into it. Of course various Islamist and anti-war apologists picked up on it. So what?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Tony


Always the propagandist, being a crybaby leftist, such tactics come natural. Nice, dishonest way to take my quote out of context.

Yeah, you should be a loudmouth rightist and use brainless ad homs instead.

[Zep]

It seems to me that this thread has taken a particular line on Islam and simply ridden that horse until it was about to drop. What a pity - the original premise that it was ISLAMIC LAW that caused the guy to slit his daughter's throat (for whatever reason). I would beg to differ from the outset.

"Honour killing" is not only part of many major religions, it actually stretches back into ancient history from before their inception. As do some other practices that we would find abhorent today. The situation would then seem to be that this practice has been simply subsumed into the developing religions as "the norm" in some tribal groups, and so has become inseperable from it.

So for these people, the justification for this sort of practice may well be that of "it is Islamic law" but it seems fairly clear that the main book of Islam doesn't mention it or even allow such practices, and in fact opposes it in most situations. The ignorant tribesmen and the lowly educated of this world simply do not know that this is the situation.

Maybe I'm not expressing it well, but in summary, to put the blame for honour killings on the Islamic faith itself would seem to be picking the wrong target. The REAL target is the ignorant and violent non-religious tribal practices of the people who just happen to profess to be Moslems. Or, indeed, Christians. Or Hindus. Etc.

[Prospero]

Originally posted by Zep
It seems to me that this thread has taken a particular line on Islam and simply ridden that horse until it was about to drop. What a pity - the original premise that it was ISLAMIC LAW that caused the guy to slit his daughter's throat (for whatever reason). I would beg to differ from the outset.

"Honour killing" is not only part of many major religions, it actually stretches back into ancient history from before their inception. As do some other practices that we would find abhorent today. The situation would then seem to be that this practice has been simply subsumed into the developing religions as "the norm" in some tribal groups, and so has become inseperable from it.

So for these people, the justification for this sort of practice may well be that of "it is Islamic law" but it seems fairly clear that the main book of Islam doesn't mention it or even allow such practices, and in fact opposes it in most situations. The ignorant tribesmen and the lowly educated of this world simply do not know that this is the situation.

Maybe I'm not expressing it well, but in summary, to put the blame for honour killings on the Islamic faith itself would seem to be picking the wrong target. The REAL target is the ignorant and violent non-religious tribal practices of the people who just happen to profess to be Moslems. Or, indeed, Christians. Or Hindus. Etc.

Maybe it's just my perception, but "honor killings" seems to be the most absurd term ever applied to these heinous acts in the context of modern society. If you're reading this, you more than likely live in a capitalist society where free speech is tolerated and perhaps even encouraged. That being the case, it's safe to assume that honor does not enter into logical thinking processes. Practicality and mutual benefit tend to be the ruling philosophies of modern societies. Honor muddies the waters of thought just as much as emotion and duty, creating more problems than it even pretends to solve.

I'll make this simple: a specific culture tolerates the slaying of one of its members because it is a backwards culture where outdated modes of thought are still considered acceptable.

Do I support the culture? No, I condemn it outright and without hesitation.

Do I also condemn the religion that the culture also happens to profess which could or could not be related to the outdated mode of thought? In this situation, no, I have not seen suitable evidence to point to the religion being at fault.

However, all things considered, specifically the number of atrocities committed in the name of one religion or another, I find myself comfortable with the belief that all organized religions are fundamentally flawed when they try to encompass disparate cultures and consider it the equivalent of passing blanket laws when matters truly need to be considered at a local level.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Prospero
Maybe it's just my perception, but "honor killings" seems to be the most absurd term ever applied to these heinous acts in the context of modern society. If you're reading this, you more than likely live in a capitalist society where free speech is tolerated and perhaps even encouraged. That being the case, it's safe to assume that honor does not enter into logical thinking processes...

Well then, capitalist or savage primitive or whatever else I may be, what I think of as honor certainly enters into my decision making processes, logical or not.

My version of honor does not include slitting the throat of an immoral daughter, as seems to be the norm in much of the Islamic world (though not part of their religion as such). Nor does it include duelling to the death over any personal insult, as was the norm in much of the Christian world at one time (though not part of their religion as such).

There seems to be some vaguely defined notion of ordinary human decency of which members of my capitalist(?) culture have an intuitive grasp, even though not always adhering to it.

The question is when the Hell is a particular culture going to get over a certain kind of evil s**t, which they attribute to their religion?

To call this stereotyping and bigotry is just asking for more "honor killing".

[LW]

Originally posted by Blue Monk
I’m surprised no one has posted any similar passages from the Bible yet. I would if I knew where they were but I do know there are plenty to choose from.

Perhaps that's because everyone knows that there are such Bible passages and because this started as a thread about Islam, not Christianity.

But, I would still be interested in the relevant passages of Koran or Hadith or any other holy Islamic scripture.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Not that I want to add to this miserable excuse of a thread, but have any of you experts on Muslims ever lived in a Muslim country or do you know, or are friends with any Muslims?

[Theodore Kurita]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Apparently you are the biggest bigot on this forum... generalizing a religion over one man's actions!!!

The problem is, his actions in this case ARE what islam says to do. This man is not a bad man who happens to be a muslim, like Ted Bundy was a bad man who happened to be a catholic; this man is a GOOD muslim who takes his religious obligations seriously--and that includes, of course, "honor killing" of his daughter for displeasing him.

The religion is relevant since the man openly claims that his actions ARE his duty as a good muslim--and he is right, since indeed the Koran and Hadith, on which the Sharia (islamic religion law) is based, say just that. Such "honor killings", as part of the brutal subjugation of woman under islam, are the rule, not the exception, in the muslim world. It goes together with the burqa, barring women from school, stoning adultresses, and other niceties of the same sort.

This brutality is usually glossed over in the west by such euphemisms as saying that islam is a "traditional society", in order not to appear "racist" or, God forbid, say that some religions are more humane and modern than others. But that doesn't change the fact that, as far as women's rights are concerned, the most ADVANCED muslim lands are barely where the west was in 1890, and the more "traditional" (read: primitive) ones are still in the 7th century.



One comment....

There is a difference between fundamentalism, and the moderates.


You look at a religion, and generalize it, based on one funamentalist zealot's action.

WHY?

Is their no suck thing as middle ground when it comes to religion?


What you are saying though sounds alot like biggotry...

Just ask any Jew about that...

They'll explain to you how harsh they were treated because of the actions of a few zealot jews...

Claiming that religion is at fault and not the person is like saying, the devil made me do it...

Just more whiney bit*** excuses for one individuals actions, while in retrospect, IT WAS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO COMMITED THE CRIME! NOT THE RELIGION!

[Tony]

Originally posted by Theodore Kurita




One comment....

There is a difference between fundamentalism, and the moderates.


You look at a religion, and generalize it, based on one funamentalist zealot's action.

WHY?

Is their no suck thing as middle ground when it comes to religion?


What you are saying though sounds alot like biggotry...

Just ask any Jew about that...

They'll explain to you how harsh they were treated because of the actions of a few zealot jews...

Claiming that religion is at fault and not the person is like saying, the devil made me do it...

Just more whiney bit*** excuses for one individuals actions, while in retrospect, IT WAS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO COMMITED THE CRIME! NOT THE RELIGION!


Please read this thread. it will help you on your quest.

http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19360

[UnrepentantSinner]

I'm just going to repost this to bump it for any "view new posts" users...

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Not that I want to add to this miserable excuse of a thread, but have any of you experts on Muslims ever lived in a Muslim country or do you know, or are friends with any Muslims?

[KelvinG]

quote:
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Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Not that I want to add to this miserable excuse of a thread, but have any of you experts on Muslims ever lived in a Muslim country or do you know, or are friends with any Muslims?
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I work with two Muslims. They are friendly, peaceful people who respect other's beliefs and don't have any sympathy for those who kill in the name of Islam. How do I know this? I asked them.
This thread prompted me to query them on their beliefs.

Am I to believe they are the minority and most Muslims are hell bent on killing western infidels?

Of course it's easy and convenient to lump others into categories like "all Muslims are evil and hateful." But it's also dishonest.
Yes, some Muslims are evil and hateful and so are some christians. Read the old testament sometime. There's a lot of smiting going on!!

I might add, I'm saying this as an atheist. I'm not a big fan of religion in general, but I'm also not ignorant enough to label a whole group based on the actions of a few.

[uruk]

Religion. The leading cause of death in the world.

The Truth. Brought to you by the People Who really like that John Lennon Song.










_________________________________________________
Lisa, What's that religion with all the well meaning rules that don't work out in real life? You know, Christianity.
Homer Simpson

[uruk]

I think there is an interpretation in the Old Testament
that goes something like " thou shall not suffer a witch to live"
I'll see If I can find out exactly where.

Check the news archives about radical christian fundamentalists
who bombed abortion clinics.

Also, for more fun, read the June 2003 issue of National Geographic about "India's Untouchables." and their horrible treament and deaths at the hands of the Hindu caste system.

And before we get hoity toity about how much we value human
life here in the good ol' U.S. of A.. Remember, the decimation of the American Indians, the Mexican/American war, The discrimination of americans of african, chinese, hispanic decent.
Union Carbide, NAFTA, Regan's trickle down theory, Our health care system, The welfare system, The O.J. trial, Michael Isner and Disneyland, Martha Stewart, The tobacco industry, Our foriegn
policy, The American Dream,....etc. All at the hands of America's
true god and religion, The Almighty Dollar.

Be honest, which one of us would'nt shove our grandmother out of the way for a billion dollars. Look on TV for what people are willing to do for a few thousand. How many of us are working ourselves into an early myo-cardial infarction for a retirement plan that we probably won't live long enough to enjoy.

I'm not lying, we had a seminar with a representative from Social Security. who strongly suggested to us that we retire before the official retirement age (70) because their records show that most workers die before 75.

Go ahead, I know some of you are going call me a radical leftist looney. But the truth is the truth. Politics can't change that.
Besides, I'm devoutly apolitical.

O.K. bring it on.

Oh Yea, When I was going to school. I had two teachers who were Iranian and Arab. They were really good, fun loving guys. But they weren't practising Muslims. Don't know if that means anything. Here in WAAAAYY down south Texas, there is a large community of Indians (hindu) and Middle-Easten (islamic) people.
Not one incident of "Honor killing" so far.

[uruk]

IT WAS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO COMMITED THE CRIME! NOT THE RELIGION!

Yea, but the religion gave the individual the moral vindication
or impetus to commit the crime.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by KelvinG
I work with two Muslims. They are friendly, peaceful people who respect other's beliefs and don't have any sympathy for those who kill in the name of Islam. How do I know this? I asked them.
This thread prompted me to query them on their beliefs.


Good, then you're someone with more valid opinion on this issue than the guys for whom "everything they learned about Muslims they learned on talk radio."

I lived in Iran (pre-revolution obviously) for nearly 3 years, I have a young Iranian lady in London I exchange e-mails with and I used to go to an Iranian resturaunt until a few years back (I just don't eat out much any more). I was also a member of an Iranian message board on Yahoo for some time. From these experiences I've developed the opinion that most Iranians (in particular of Muslims) aren't really all that interested in blowing up or converting the U.S. Some want us to leave them alone. Some want to trade with us. Some want jeans that they can wear under their chadors. Some want to move here and enjoy the freedom that a secular state affords a person.

Any of our "experts" on Islam know any Muslims or visited or lived in a Muslim country?

[LW]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Not that I want to add to this miserable excuse of a thread, but have any of you experts on Muslims ever lived in a Muslim country or do you know, or are friends with any Muslims?

I'm not an expert on Muslims, but I've lived 1.5 years in Turkey (in small mountain town North of Kastamonu).

I was a child then (9-10 years) so I've forgotten much of what happened there but I still remember that not once were we threatened in any way.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by uruk
Religion. The leading cause of death in the world.

The Truth. Brought to you by the People Who really like that John Lennon Song.

Religion. The leading cause of death in the world until the 20th century, when it was overtaken and left way behind by various forms of socialism.

And that John Lennon song is bloody awful. It's embarassing to listen to, it's so bad.

No I don't believe in any religion.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Prospero
Maybe it's just my perception, but "honor killings" seems to be the most absurd term ever applied to these heinous acts in the context of modern society. If you're reading this, you more than likely live in a capitalist society where free speech is tolerated and perhaps even encouraged. That being the case, it's safe to assume that honor does not enter into logical thinking processes...
But bear in mind that the man mentioned in the opening post is British, and I've got to say that this is not the first instance of "honour killing" I've heard of. In my area, a woman and her lover were murdered by her father and brothers; last year an entire family died when there house was burned because a member of that family was involved with a women that he wasn't supposed to.

On the other hand...

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Not that I want to add to this miserable excuse of a thread, but have any of you experts on Muslims ever lived in a Muslim country or do you know, or are friends with any Muslims?
I've got a friend who's a muslim, another friend who converted from islam to christianity in his teens and another friend who is English and a christian but has moved to Jordan to be with her Jordanian muslim husband. None have expressed any intention of or interest in terrorism or the systematic oppression of women.

[gnome]

I'm still waiting for news of anyone who has said that fundamentalist Islam is peaceful...

so far I've only heard quotations talking about Islam in general.

Maybe Tony can't find any. Maybe there aren't any.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Good, then you're someone with more valid opinion on this issue than the guys for whom "everything they learned about Muslims they learned on talk radio."

I lived in Iran (pre-revolution obviously) for nearly 3 years, I have a young Iranian lady in London I exchange e-mails with and I used to go to an Iranian resturaunt until a few years back (I just don't eat out much any more). I was also a member of an Iranian message board on Yahoo for some time. From these experiences I've developed the opinion that most Iranians (in particular of Muslims) aren't really all that interested in blowing up or converting the U.S. Some want us to leave them alone. Some want to trade with us. Some want jeans that they can wear under their chadors. Some want to move here and enjoy the freedom that a secular state affords a person.

Any of our "experts" on Islam know any Muslims or visited or lived in a Muslim country?

US,
It appears you are trying to invalidate comments made here by other posters on the grounds that if they have not personally experienced life in an Islamic country, or know a Muslim then they have no right to an opinion.

That's just wrong. I think it's quite valid and obvious to look at the cause and effect relationship between Islam and violent muslim terrorists. Without Islamic guidance perhaps these persons would find other reasons to be violent,..but Islam itself offers then plenty of guidance. Of course Christianity and Judaism are also guilty of this to almost the same extent.

Religions that promote ANY violent actions on behalf of the invisible guy in the sky are WRONG. I don't need to know Muslims to discern that fact.

Oh, BTW I do know some Muslims...but they are not devout fundies...I don't know any of those. I also went to school with a lovely girl who attended Tehran American School and got out just prior to the taking of the embassy hostages. She used to talk about the great skiing there...and she also mentioned that it was a very modern and tolerant place. (apparently she didn't hang with the fundies either)

Sadly, the moral of the story is that extremists and fundies of any religion which promotes or even allows violence against "infidels" or non-believers are dangerous. We get rid of those idiots who have THE TRUTH(tm)...and maybe we all really can "just get along".

-z

[uruk]

That's just wrong. I think it's quite valid and obvious to look at the cause and effect relationship between Islam and violent muslim terrorists.

The problem with this is that most of what we hear comes from
the mass media, which tends to broadcast only the sensationalistcly bad things and give the radical elements more press. (for maximum ratings, of course) So the more moderate, level headed muslims are under-represented.

A story about a group of jews and muslims getting along would barely get any press. Or the story of a Suicide bomber who decides "wait a minute, this is crazy!" probably wouldn't get much press either.

[uruk]

Religion. The leading cause of death in the world until the 20th century, when it was overtaken and left way behind by various forms of socialism.

I wouldn't exaclty say "way behind". Stalin and Mao were bad
mo fo's, but western and eastern religions aren't the only religions which have tallied up the body count.

And that John Lennon song is bloody awful. It's embarassing to listen to, it's so bad

I have to agree with you there!!!!:D

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by rikzilla
US,
It appears you are trying to invalidate comments made here by other posters on the grounds that if they have not personally experienced life in an Islamic country, or know a Muslim then they have no right to an opinion.

That's just wrong. I think it's quite valid and obvious to look at the cause and effect relationship between Islam and violent muslim terrorists. Without Islamic guidance perhaps these persons would find other reasons to be violent,..but Islam itself offers then plenty of guidance. Of course Christianity and Judaism are also guilty of this to almost the same extent.

It wasn't my intent to invalidate, but to qualify the statements made about Muslims the have the appearance of making all adherants as a whole out to be foaming-mouthed America-haters who would love to kill or convert us.

I agree wholeheartedly that the fundamentalists are a danger to the West and to the moderates and non-practicing Muslims. Wahabiism and other movements are a scurge upon the Earth. I disagree with claiming every Muslim is one or potentially is one.

I also think that someone who actually knows Muslims or has lived in a Muslim country is better qualified to comment on whether all Muslims are crazy-eyed beared suicide bomber wannabes than someone whose only exposure has been through talk radio.

Religions that promote ANY violent actions on behalf of the invisible guy in the sky are WRONG. I don't need to know Muslims to discern that fact.

Oh, BTW I do know some Muslims...but they are not devout fundies...I don't know any of those. I also went to school with a lovely girl who attended Tehran American School and got out just prior to the taking of the embassy hostages. She used to talk about the great skiing there...and she also mentioned that it was a very modern and tolerant place. (apparently she didn't hang with the fundies either)

Sadly, the moral of the story is that extremists and fundies of any religion which promotes or even allows violence against "infidels" or non-believers are dangerous. We get rid of those idiots who have THE TRUTH(tm)...and maybe we all really can "just get along".

-z

I agree completely.

One doesn't have to know adherants to critique religious tenets. My quibble is with those who would paint an entire religion based on the actions of fundamentalist minorities when they don't know any of adherants or have no first hand exposure to the moderate or cosmopolitan majority.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner

My quibble is with those who would paint an entire religion based on the actions of fundamentalist minorities when they don't know any of adherants or have no first hand exposure to the moderate or cosmopolitan majority.

Hear, hear.

I remember seeing a talk show on race relations and one bigot was explaining why he didn't like blacks.

He said that when he was young he was beaten by a group of black kids.

Does anyone see the flaw in the logic here?

Had he been beaten by a group of white kids would he had then developed a hatred for white people. Of course not. The absurdity of hating the whole white race based on the actions of a few is so painfully absurd in this context but for some reason it does not always seem to translate against racial lines.

These terrorists are extremists and do not reflect the true values of Islam as a whole.

Individuals can only be judged as individuals. Painting large groups of individuals with the same brush based only on the actions of a few, especially when the few are obviously extreme deviations of the norm, ensures that ignorance will continue to march bolding into the 21st century.

I wonder if anyone here hates Christians from upstate New York based solely on the actions of Timothy McVeigh.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Blue Monk

I wonder if anyone here hates Christians from upstate New York based solely on the actions of Timothy McVeigh.

No,

But there is this guy (http://www.godhatesfags.com/) So I guess upstate New York has more than it's share of nutbags!

-z

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by rikzilla

Sadly, the moral of the story is that extremists and fundies of any religion which promotes or even allows violence against "infidels" or non-believers are dangerous. We get rid of those idiots who have THE TRUTH(tm)...and maybe we all really can "just get along".

-z

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by rikzilla


US,
It appears you are trying to invalidate comments made here by other posters on the grounds that if they have not personally experienced life in an Islamic country, or know a Muslim then they have no right to an opinion.

That's just wrong. I think it's quite valid and obvious to look at the cause and effect relationship between Islam and violent muslim terrorists.
I agree. That's why US's post was so useful; as demonstrated, not all muslims become violent terrorists, so the relationship between Islam and terrorism needs very careful investigation and analysis which goes beyond unsupportable generalisations and stereotypes.
Without Islamic guidance perhaps these persons would find other reasons to be violent,..but Islam itself offers then plenty of guidance. Of course Christianity and Judaism are also guilty of this to almost the same extent.

Religions that promote ANY violent actions on behalf of the invisible guy in the sky are WRONG. I don't need to know Muslims to discern that fact.
There was an interesting thread in R&P recently which looked at exactly how Islam promoted violence. And the examples were rather ambiguous, to say the least. It's interesting that one person picks up the bible and decides to go and work for free in a Lebanese hospital for a year; another person picks up the bible and decides to go out and shoot doctors who practice abortion. Of course, it's all a matter of interpretation, and maybe we need to take into account what the individual seeks from their interpretation as well as the possible interpretations the text offers.

Sadly, the moral of the story is that extremists and fundies of any religion which promotes or even allows violence against "infidels" or non-believers are dangerous. We get rid of those idiots who have THE TRUTH(tm)...and maybe we all really can "just get along".

-z
Agreed–although it's not just with religion that is this problematic. Bad times? Economy on the rocks? It's their fault, that group over there. Let's lock them up and maybe even kill some of them because they are all evil. Hold on, isn't this where I came in?

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by rikzilla


No,

But there is this guy (http://www.godhatesfags.com/) So I guess upstate New York has more than it's share of nutbags!

-z

Yikes!

Luckily I'm from Texas and nothing crazy ever happens in Texas.