why I became a conservative

[Nie Trink Wasser]

if anyone cares to know.........this question was asked of me :

You said in the Flame War section that you were a Liberal until 2 years ago...

My question to you now is, what happened to you 2 years ago that changed your mind about your political views?



I was very politically active as a liberal throughout school and a year after graduating. I had an art driven radioshow dedicated to expressing revolution and social change. I protested the government and pushed it as far as I possibly could without being kicked off the air.

I became involved in the protesting of the bombing of Iraq. Over time I started to become disgusted at the use of pictures of dead babies to protest things unrelated to the pictures of dead babies (and where did these pics of dead babies come from ?)

anyway....I found a job as a commercial film-video-editor for various companies. While working there I was grilled about my political opinions at parties and in the workplace. I chose to stay out of it and keep my mouth shut, but they didnt like that. It was a big issue for them to know what my politics were in order for me to fit in with them, since I didnt want to do this and focus more on my job, it was much harder for me to get ahead. They were very liberal/socialist, but I did not want to bring that into the workplace as I was involved in anarchist activity.

While I was working this job I was very involved in producing propaganda for politically left causes. Arranging billboard, flyers, websites, graphics and writing. Most of it involved encorporating bits and pieces of conspiracty theories to form various manifestos and revisionist history. At the time I considered these things true as I became more enveloped in them.

When 911 happened I was involved with a number of people involved in the same political circles. I watched them take what happened and mold it into elaborate conspiracy theory/new world order scenarios. I began to become disgusted at the conscious manipulation of the truth for political ideals. As they began to cascade into psychotic theories and selective history, I began to notice things that I hadnt before. I started to understand what it was they didn't want to talk about and didnt want people to be aware of.

I decided to seriously pursue something honest and in order to do that I had to leave that lifestyle and those people. As I did, I began to notice that most of what they talked about was being repeated in the media. I also noticed that I had much less friends, as they were all mostly just a political support group anyway.

so here I am......this story is somewhat incomplete, but its all I have time for now.....believe it or not....that's not my responsibility.

[hgc]

You were right to identify and condemn the wrongheadedness of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, but it looks to me that you swung from one extreme to the other.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by hgc
You were right to identify and condemn the wrongheadedness of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, but it looks to me that you swung from one extreme to the other.

but I havent, you just assume that of me.

I made the mistake of becoming involved with extremists and won't make that mistake again, but the scary part is that the same extremists working the propaganda machine werent that much different than the "moderates".

you have to be careful, and I've learned that lesson.

the people who were creating and pushing the conspiracy theories were well aware that what they were doing wasn;t completely true. They just wanted converts and conspiracy theories are a great way to pull people in. So it wasnt just a gang of dupes. These people did the duping.

[rikzilla]

You're no conservative, you're a nut.

You used to be a lefty nut, now you're a righty nut. However, to my mind, a nut has more in common with other nuts than he does with ANY political position.

Your penchant for pushing the opinions of Mr. Goad was the convincer for me. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt for a long time...but you taint the conservative argument with your nutty diatribes.

I wish you well NTW,... I don't really want to get on your bad side, but this has been brewing inside me ever since you posted the offensive grinning blackface cartoon. I hope you take this as constructive criticism from a non-leftist. Get your act together man.

-z

[DavidJames]

"the people who were creating and pushing the conspiracy theories were well aware that what they were doing wasn;t completely true. They just wanted converts and conspiracy theories are a great way to pull people in."

Sounds a lot like Ann Coulter tactics :)

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by rikzilla
You're no conservative, you're a nut.

You used to be a lefty nut, now you're a righty nut. However, to my mind, a nut has more in common with other nuts than he does with ANY political position.



I am not a right-extremist. Timothy Mcveigh and Jerry Falwell are right wing extremists. I despise them.



Your penchant for pushing the opinions of Mr. Goad was the convincer for me. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt for a long time...but you taint the conservative argument with your nutty diatribes.


I post what Goad has written on his website from time to time, it's that simple. I'm a fan of his just as I am a fan of the Polyphonic Spree, Louis Brandeis or Crispin Glover. :confused:


I wish you well NTW,... I don't really want to get on your bad side, but this has been brewing inside me ever since you posted the offensive grinning blackface cartoon.


rik, it was a picture of a black guy. Not blackface. It wasn't anymore racist than a picture of fat albert and you know that.

If it makes you feel better to keep your distance from me, then do so, but please don't call me a racist or I will lose a great deal of respect for your intelligence.


I hope you take this as constructive criticism from a non-leftist. Get your act together man.
-z [/B]


I'm doing the best I can. Please be aware that you too can make mistakes in your reasoning.

I have a lot of respect for you rik.

please don't start treating me like I'm a nutcase just for trying to give Jim Goad some exposure.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser


I am not a right-extremist. Timothy Mcveigh and Jerry Falwell are right wing extremists. I despise them.



I post what Goad has written on his website from time to time, it's that simple. I'm a fan of his just as I am a fan of the Polyphonic Spree or Crispin Glover. :confused:



rik, it was a picture of a black guy. Not blackface. It wasn't anymore racist than a picture of fat albert and you know that.

If it makes you feel better to keep your distance from me, then do so, but please don't call me a racist or I will lose a great deal of respect for your intelligence.




I'm doing the best I can. Please be aware that you too can make mistakes in your reasoning.

I have a lot of respect for you rik.

please don't start treating me like I'm a nutcase just for trying to give Jim Goad some exposure.

Look, I'm sorry I went off on you.

I like alot of the stuff you say,....but then again sometimes you go off on a weird tangent. I felt the same way about Jedi...

I thank you for your respect NTW,..but I'm not a "real" conservative. I may pass for one on JREF, but that says more about the prevelence of lefties here than it says about my "conservatism".

I'm just an average, mainstream American. I supported Clinton when the Repubs were attempting his impeachment because I thought it was bad for this country that I love. I feel the same way about leftist attacks on GWB.

My own firm comitment is to try to look issues with a view to what is best for America,...not "what is best for the ______ party".

Again, NTW. I'm sorry I flamed you. I'm having a $hitty day.

-z

[Silicon]

Great!

Now tell us why you became a troll?


Nah, too easy. ;-)



I'm glad you fell out of that crowd, they sound like loons.

There are loons on the right and the left. As loony as they come, on both sides.

The problem is that the non-loonys are shouted down by the loonys, and there's somehow now a fringe of near-loonys who set the debate in this country.

People like Sharpton, Striesand, G. Gordon Liddy, O' Reilly, Coulter... these proto-looneys go at it, and tar the whole debate with terms like:

Liberal dominated media
Tax and Spend Democrat
Baby killer (anti-war and anti-abortionists)
Freedom of religion NOT freedom FROM religion
Facists
Tree-huggers
The spotted-owl nuts
Gun-lovers
gay-bashers
homosexual fornication agenda (good name for a rock band)
Media elite

etc.

Hope you continue your journey away from the fringes, NTW!

[BPSCG]

Your story sounds a lot like my nephew's. He's a college junior. Used to be a confirmed leftists: anti-globalist, anti-capitalist, anti-corporate, loved Rage Against the Machine. The despair of his mother, a confirmed Dittohead.

Then the world changed for him on September 11. He saw all his leftist friends somehow finding ways to blame the U.S. for the attacks. He tried to reason with them, get them to admit that maybe just this once, there was an evil abroad in the world that was not the fault of the U.S. But they weren't having any of it.

And, like you, he began to look at his other beliefs and he began to reexamine his heretofore unchallenged idea that most of what was wrong with the world was the fault of the U.S.

Didn't take long. Today he's the secretary of his college's Young Republicans club.

For a real eye-opening look at what happens when a confirmed '60s radical has his world turned around, read David Horowitz's Radical Son. His parents were confirmed communists ("progressives" was the euphemism they used back then, and still do), raised him accordingly, and he was a campus radical and editor of a '60s far-left magazine called Ramparts. He counted the Tom Hayden and Huey Newton and the Black Panthers as friends back then.

And then...

[Tony]

Originally posted by BPSCG


For a real eye-opening look at what happens when a confirmed '60s radical has his world turned around, read David Horowitz's Radical Son. His parents were confirmed communists ("progressives" was the euphemism they used back then, and still do), raised him accordingly, and he was a campus radical and editor of a '60s far-left magazine called Ramparts. He counted the Tom Hayden and Huey Newton and the Black Panthers as friends back then.



Sounds like Christopher Hitchens too.

[Kodiak]

Using these (http://www.conservatism.com/CustomPage.asp?WEBSVCID=1155&SID={D11D5DBB-24BA-48B0-9C6A-652A90E80684}&MID=118) "conservatism.com" FAQs as a guideline, do you find yourself in agreement with all/some/most facets of the conservative ideology?

What was your stance before 9-11?

If the "before" and the "after" are different, how did 9-11 affect the change, as you suggest?

[Tmy]

This sounds like the origin to a comic book supervillian. All we need now is for Nie to bitten by a radioactive elephant, add some snazzy spandex and he becomes "Ditto-man" and his trusty sidekick "Right-wing" (aka Tony)

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by hgc
You were right to identify and condemn the wrongheadedness of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, but it looks to me that you swung from one extreme to the other.

That is to be expected. For extremists, what matter is BEING an extremist--that is, knowing "the truth", realizing the everybody else is wrong about everything, etc. While they sometimes change the CONTENT of their beliefs, they rarely if ever change the FEROCITY of their beliefs--they remain "true believers", only in something else.

This is true for many people. For example, St. Paul was a avowed enemy of the new christian cult before his conversion on the road to Damascus, which eventually lead to his martyr's death for the faith. Goebbles was an ardent communist before he became a committed nazi. David Horowitz was a left-wing student radical before he became a right-wing showpiece. And, in this case, NTW was a left-wing extremist before he became totally right-wing.

Such people do not change their mind gradually--from exteme left-wing to the democratic party, from there to the republican party, and from there to the libertarian party and beyound. It is much more a case of instant conversion, a Paul-on-the-Road-to-Damacus "enlightment" and realizing of "the truth".

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Kodiak
Using these (http://www.conservatism.com/CustomPage.asp?WEBSVCID=1155&SID={D11D5DBB-24BA-48B0-9C6A-652A90E80684}&MID=118) "conservatism.com" FAQs as a guideline, do you find yourself in agreement with all/some/most facets of the conservative ideology?


This is the first time Ive seen that site so you'll have to give me some time to read it over (Im also rushed for time...I got a new job a at medical school :) )


What was your stance before 9-11?


it was so vague I can't really describe it. Anarchy is basically it, because I/it was so stupid. Anarchy fits whatever program/propagandist wants to adopt its members.

It was anti-everything.......destroy Christianity, Capitalism, Corporations, re-write history "the way it should have been written", blah blah blah.....

watch the movie JFK, watch the end of Fight Club. Conspiracy Conspiracy....blow up the government.

I wanted chaos and so did my friends. Protest was "fun" and our teachers and elders encouraged it. "F!ck the New World Order" ........ "We Want a President Who Can Get It Up" .....



If the "before" and the "after" are different, how did 9-11 affect the change, as you suggest? [/B]


9-11 showed me how they worked psychologically. It helped me understand how they were lying without even knowing it.....it was horrible to live through. Every moment of it they demanding you look at the "grassy knoll" and find the government at the rifle.

I saw one thing and they told me I saw another .......or. ...... they told me I wasn't perceptive enough to see what REALLY happened, which was conspiracy theory. Beating me over the head with it helped me to understand that it was brainwashing and I knew what I saw.

when I read/hear what leftists say I can see the subtle lie that is based on a planned logical error on the readers part. Either that or is derives from the writer himself.

anyway........more later......

thanks kodiak !

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
This sounds like the origin to a comic book supervillian. All we need now is for Nie to bitten by a radioactive elephant, add some snazzy spandex and he becomes "Ditto-man" and his trusty sidekick "Right-wing" (aka Tony)

:dl:

This is funny, but why drag me into this?

[jj]

Originally posted by rikzilla
To NTW
You're no conservative, you're a nut.

Thank you sir, for putting in that plain-speak.

You used to be a lefty nut, now you're a righty nut. However, to my mind, a nut has more in common with other nuts than he does with ANY political position.

Agreed, agreed. Welcome to the middle, Rik. :)

Your penchant for pushing the opinions of Mr. Goad was the convincer for me. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt for a long time...but you taint the conservative argument with your nutty diatribes.

-z
Agreed, I have theorized (somewhat sarcastically) that he is actually a leftist propagandist in disguise a few times.

[jj]

Originally posted by Kodiak
Using these (http://www.conservatism.com/CustomPage.asp?WEBSVCID=1155&SID={D11D5DBB-24BA-48B0-9C6A-652A90E80684}&MID=118) "conservatism.com" FAQs as a guideline, do you find yourself in agreement with all/some/most facets of the conservative ideology?

What was your stance before 9-11?

If the "before" and the "after" are different, how did 9-11 affect the change, as you suggest?

*kaff*
According to those, I'm clearly a conservative.

I suppose that's true in some sense, I support using knowledge of history so we don't do the same dumb things over and over again.

I must note, however, that their section on "family values" is rife with excluded middles, bad assumptions of zero-sum games, and such.

[jj]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
It was anti-everything.......destroy Christianity, Capitalism, Corporations, re-write history "the way it should have been written", blah blah blah.....


Hmm, to answer you seriously for once (since you appear to maybe be level here), just allow me to point out that not all people who strongly oppose your particular NEW views are like the people you mention above.

Some of them do exist, indeed. If we get one of them here I actually think you'll be quite satisfied with the treatment they get.

We did, I think, briefly have an ALF'er here. Lasted a day, I think.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Tony


:dl:

This is funny, but why drag me into this?

Yknow, the leftist conspiracy against the righties on the board.. I figure Id toss ya into the mix.

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by jj


*kaff*
According to those, I'm clearly a conservative.

I suppose that's true in some sense, I support using knowledge of history so we don't do the same dumb things over and over again.

I must note, however, that their section on "family values" is rife with excluded middles, bad assumptions of zero-sum games, and such.

Conceded...

...and that part you posted about "using knowledge of history" is also known as "Roman piety", and explains to those in the religious right how I can be an agnostic/atheist and a conservative at the same time. :)

[Kodiak]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser

This is the first time Ive seen that site so you'll have to give me some time to read it over (Im also rushed for time...I got a new job a at medical school :) )

it was so vague I can't really describe it. Anarchy is basically it, because I/it was so stupid. Anarchy fits whatever program/propagandist wants to adopt its members.

It was anti-everything.......destroy Christianity, Capitalism, Corporations, re-write history "the way it should have been written", blah blah blah.....

watch the movie JFK, watch the end of Fight Club. Conspiracy Conspiracy....blow up the government.

I wanted chaos and so did my friends. Protest was "fun" and our teachers and elders encouraged it. "F!ck the New World Order" ........ "We Want a President Who Can Get It Up" .....

9-11 showed me how they worked psychologically. It helped me understand how they were lying without even knowing it.....it was horrible to live through. Every moment of it they demanding you look at the "grassy knoll" and find the government at the rifle.

I saw one thing and they told me I saw another .......or. ...... they told me I wasn't perceptive enough to see what REALLY happened, which was conspiracy theory. Beating me over the head with it helped me to understand that it was brainwashing and I knew what I saw.

when I read/hear what leftists say I can see the subtle lie that is based on a planned logical error on the readers part. Either that or is derives from the writer himself.

anyway........more later......

thanks kodiak !


Thanks for the response thus far, but I really hope you can find the time to describe and/or explain your current (conservative?) ideology, your pre 9-11 (socialist/anarchist?) ideology, and how the WTC/Pentagon bombings were the impetus for change.

Thanks, NTW...

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by Tony
Sounds like Christopher Hitchens too. Yes it does, and I guess it's not surprising that my nephew is a major Hitchens fan.

[Zep]

NTW, you definitely sound like someone for whom there is no "middle ground". You see-sawed straight from anarchist-overthrow-left to buzzcut-M16-and-camo-right with no intervening steps at all. That these are just variants of one-eyed no-thought-required mobs seems to have slipped your mind, and is probably what made it so easy for you to switch.

Staying on the fence requires balance. Are you balanced, NTW??

[a_unique_person]

You have made the classic mistake of Western logic. If one thing is true, the other is false. If one thing is bad, the other is good. It's not that simple, unfortunately. There is good and bad in everything. You, as an individual, have to decide for yourself where that balance lies for each instance of choice you have to make.

[hgc]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You have made the classic mistake of Western logic. If one thing is true, the other is false. If one thing is bad, the other is good. It's not that simple, unfortunately. There is good and bad in everything. You, as an individual, have to decide for yourself where that balance lies for each instance of choice you have to make. Another classic of Western logic: If one thing is yin, the other is yang. :eek:

[jj]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You have made the classic mistake of Western logic. If one thing is true, the other is false. If one thing is bad, the other is good. It's not that simple, unfortunately. There is good and bad in everything. You, as an individual, have to decide for yourself where that balance lies for each instance of choice you have to make.


Which kind of western logic is that? It must be the kind they teach in the other west????

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by jj



Which kind of western logic is that? It must be the kind they teach in the other west????

Like this, from the "How the West Was Derived"

The sheriff stared at the stranger. "This here's a logical town. We're a syllogism fearing people, and we've got little time for people who try to say that "not X" doesn't necessarily mean that "Y" is true even if they are mutually exclusive."

The stranger looked confused. He was an unusual looking person, but not unpleasant. He was, best described as a unique person. "But mutual exclusiveness doesn't require that one of them has to be...."

The unique stranger never finished that sentence. A shot rang out as the Sheriff enforced the rules of logic, western style.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Suddenly


Like this, from the "How the West Was Derived"
--------------------------------------
The sheriff stared at the stranger. "This here's a logical town. We're a syllogism fearing people, and we've got little time for people who try to say that "not X" doesn't necessarily mean that "Y" is true even if they are mutually exclusive."

The stranger looked confused. He was an unusual looking person, but not unpleasant. He was, best described as a unique person. "But mutual exclusiveness doesn't require that one of them has to be...."

The unique stranger never finished that sentence. A shot rang out as the Sheriff enforced the rules of logic, western style.



OMG! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Somehow I knew AUP wouldn't last long in the old West!. :roll:

Thanks for the belly laugh Suddenly! Of course, I've been told by many of my lefty,... (and righty) friends that I manage to stay in the middle because I have the fence post shoved firmly up my ass! :eek:

That there don't take no balance a'tall! ;)

-z

[P.S.A.]

I think that poor stranger was unjustly done by Rush Limbaugh type old-western values. I mean, look; I think we can all agree that Die Tosser Lefthanden proves that other people being idiots doesn't make you a genius... so how about you just put that gun down Mr Sheriff, and we boil up a nice cup of sympathy tea... *BLAM BLAM BLAM*

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by P.S.A.
I think that poor stranger was unjustly done by Rush Limbaugh type old-western values. I mean, look; I think we can all agree that Die Tosser Lefthanden proves that other people being idiots doesn't make you a genius... so how about you just put that gun down Mr Sheriff, and we boil up a nice cup of sympathy tea... *BLAM BLAM BLAM*



aww, the cute little sock puppet spoke again.

[P.S.A.]

Shhh.... don't say I'm a sock puppet! You want Club Gleet to have as many members as possible, remember?! I mean, at least one thing you've ever done should be popular, right?

I will admit that at this moment I am wearing socks though.

[Suddenly]

"How the West was Derived" (cont.)

He was a interesting fellow with a strange accent not heard in these parts. Claimed he was from Virginia. Didn't say much, but he had some really strange afflictions, chief of these was his refusal to drink water. He also refused to turn to his left, no matter if it meant a 270 degree right hand turn. He was teased a bit, but he was resolute in his ways. Nobody knew why he did these things, as he'd only repeat the words of other people, in particular some prophet or something by the name of "Goad" or something. Strange fellow.

The day he rode into town was about a week after the liberal clique had just run down and strung up some old boy who claimed to be some sort of knight. He was claiming over and over that if "A" is a member of the set "B", and "A' is also a member of the set "C", then it followed that all members of set "B" were also members of set C.

The sheriff would just push his hat back, laugh and say it was just a matter of opinion, but if that knight feller' wasn't talking about those darned communists, the law might have been involved. "Those commies don't follow western logic, so I reckon what that knight feller says could be true." He reasoned.

You see, when that ol' liberal clique gets riled up they don't kill you quick. Death by a thousand refutations is what I call it. They just use that cold hard logic in a very unwestern way until they get you to use the rope yourself. They hounded that knight feller all the way from RP ridge to the PCE canyon. Eventually the poor knight feller put a rope around his own neck, tied the other end to a tree and jumped. I hear he was claimin' that he'd be fine since his body didn't produce gravity or somethin.

Anyway, the clique got riled up over someting the no water stranger said, and came after him. One of the posse suddenly said:

Hey there you stranger
Why do you only turn right
Can you explain that?

To which the stranger replied:

" http//www.jimgoad.com (http://www.pvponline.com/index.php3) "

...(to be continued ... maybe)

[rikzilla]

Well, I s'pose that there stranger could be a true prophet o' Goad. He don't drink no wadder...(now howizat possible?)...he leans right all the time, but that there swayback nag he's a riddin' looks like her legs is longer on one side than they is on t'other...so that there might be why he's a leanin' so far??

(Zilla pushes his cowboy hat back and scratches his haid)... He's real quick on the draw too...but he don't seem to be to dang good at hittin' anything cept'n his own di_k. ;)

Ah must say ah like that boy tho..he got's gumpshun. Ya needs gumpshun out here in the west. Knight had gumpshun,...didn't git him nutt'n but a stretched neck...but he shore was in'tertainin'!

(Zilla gently turns his horse and rides away singing)

"Oh I'll eat when I'm hungry,
I'll drink when I'm dry,
If my horse don't fall on me,
I'll live till I die,...."

-z

[Nie Trink Wasser]

they call me Goad, they call me Coulter, they call me 'addicted to the right'.

they call me a lot of things around these parts, but dont you worry none.

what gossip ya hear ain't always the straight talk of what's really goin down in this ole western town.

I'm a man on my own. Pale ridin and lonesome.

A man's got to have his space and a man with a sprinkling of enemies will have a good life.

just remember now, water is bad for you. Drinkin it'll kill ya.

[jj]

Originally posted by P.S.A.
Shhh.... don't say I'm a sock puppet! You want Club Gleet to have as many members as possible, remember?! I mean, at least one thing you've ever done should be popular, right?

I will admit that at this moment I am wearing socks though.

I admit that this does tempt one to ask:

Hey, NTW, how's your PSA?

But that's really none of my business, in a very real, small way.