OKC bomber and WTC93 bomber in Philippines at the same time?

[A-Train]

In an extraordinary speech (http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2008/rohr022608.html) delivered on the House of Representatives floor a few weeks ago, California representative Dana Rohrabacher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Rohrabacher) detailed his frustrations trying to get the executive branch to investigate numerous coincidences linking the bombings of the World Trade Center in 1993 and of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City two years later. Most incredible of these coincidences is the evidence that convicted OKC bomber Terry Nichols and convicted WTC93 bomber Ramzi Yousef were known to be Cebu City, a small town in the Philippines, at the same time.

"In that capacity, I learned that in the time immediately leading up to the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, convicted Oklahoma City bomber and murderer Terry Nichols had been in Cebu City in the Philippines. His stay in Cebu City coincided with another visitor to that city, al Qaeda's terrorist leader Ramsey Yousef. Interestingly, both Nichols and Yousef used similar bombs and methods just 2 years apart to blow up two American targets. Yousef was the mastermind of the first attack on the World Trade Center in 1993. Nichols was a coconspirator in the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building in 1995."
-Rep. Dana Rohrabacher Feb. 26, 2008What are we to make of this? Can this be just a coincidence? Cebu City isn't exactly a tourist mecca like Cancun. Rohrabacher continued:

"These individuals, one American and one Arab, were responsible for planning two of the most lethal terrorist attacks on our countrymen in our history. We are to believe that by coincidence they ended up in an off-the-beaten-track city in the Southern Philippines? One doesn't have to be a conspiracy nut to understand that this coincidence is certainly worth looking into."It does seem more than a bit strange, doesn't it? We are told that the OKC bombing was carried out by two white trash lowlifes who hated the gub'mint. The WTC bombings were carried out by Moslem fanatics who hate our freedoms. What could have brought these two disparate groups together in some Philippine hicktown?

But the coincidences don't even begin to end there. Rohrabacher looked at the phone records of WTC mastermind Yousef. Yousef made numerous phone calls to a rowhouse in New York City. The occupant of the rowhouse was the cousin of Nichols' Filipina wife.


"That row house was occupied by the cousin of Terry Nichols' Filipina wife. Let me repeat that. The terrorist bomber of the first World Trade Center attack, the nephew of al Qaeda 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, made phone calls to the same row house that was occupied by Terry Nichols' cousins-in-law just 2 months before he exploded the bomb in the garage of the World Trade Center 15 years ago. Another coincidence?"And guess what, there's even a possible link to 9/11. The link revolves around a Palestinian named Samir Khahil, an unindicted coconspirator of the WTC attacks. Rohrabacher apparently has some evidence that this man may have been working at Boston's Logan airport on the morning of 9/11!

Further, we asked help in finding the Arab immigrant who looked like John Doe II and the man who was employed by Samir Khahil. We traced him to Boston, but we have had no support or cooperation in finding this very possible terrorist, or at least terrorist suspect. He may well have been working at Boston's Logan Airport on 9/11/01, the day that a plane took off from that airport and was hijacked and crashed into the World Trade Center. Another weird coincidence to the Oklahoma City bombing. Another coincidence, yes.(I wonder if it was this guys job to run the surveillance cameras of the passengers boarding the planes?)

So what do we all make of these shocking claims? Remember, this was a speech delivered on the floor of the House of Representatives, not a tirade on an internet radio station. And Rep. Rohrabacher seems quite a solid, Reaganesque conservative. Are we to believe Rohrabacher has gone woo, and is set to cash in writing books and making speeches to the huge twoofer market?

I'd like to hear what we all here think of these claims. As for myself, I'd say it's pretty clear the two bombings-- OKC and WTC93-- were both engineered by the same entity, which happened to have a base in the Philippines. The goals of both bombings were the same-- to instill hysteria into the American people and pave the way for legislation greatly expanding the police powers of the federal government. Nichols may have been a supremacist and Yousef may have been a Islamist; but both men were patsies being manipulated by the same entity that then went on to use the same techniques on 9/11.

Then again, maybe it is just a coincidence. Maybe Kevin Bacon was hanging out with the Nichols and Yousef getting a suntan down there in Cebu City.

[dudalb]

Don't Tell Me,Let Me Guess.....
The Jews Are Involved Somehow.

[Bluekush623]

Heres a transcript from the film WKJO

449
00:34:41,104 --> 00:34:44,967
After '93, a series of terrorist attacks plagued the US.

450
00:34:44,968 --> 00:34:50,842
As we move through this, you will begin to understand how specific agendas within specific parts of government,

451
00:34:50,843 --> 00:34:56,455
media, and industry have created a propaganda campaign to wage war...

452
00:34:56,456 --> 00:34:59,703
... with 9-11 as the prime selling point.

453
00:34:59,704 --> 00:35:05,026
There was the OKC bombing in '95, the Embassy Bombings in Africa in 1998,

454
00:35:05,027 --> 00:35:09,456
the USS Cole bombing in 2000 in Yemen and then, of course...

455
00:35:09,457 --> 00:35:11,595
there was 9/11.

456
00:35:11,596 --> 00:35:13,788
There's an anomaly in there.

457
00:35:13,789 --> 00:35:17,099
All of the attacks you just mentioned were blamed on al Qaeda,

458
00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:19,442
except for OKC.

459
00:35:19,443 --> 00:35:21,153
However, there is a connection.

460
00:35:21,154 --> 00:35:27,143
Timothy McVeigh's lawyer claims that he and Terry Nichols were not the only two people who planned the OKC bombing.

461
00:35:27,144 --> 00:35:32,038
He contends that Nichols made several trips to the Philippines in the years before the bombings and met with...

462
00:35:32,039 --> 00:35:34,692
Ramzi Yousef.

463
00:35:35,985 --> 00:35:42,830
McVeigh served in the Gulf War, and Yousef entered the country with an Iraqi passport. Coincidence?

464
00:35:42,831 --> 00:35:45,378
Conspiracy!

465
00:35:45,379 --> 00:35:51,882
McVeigh and Nichols both visited al Qaeda training camps in the Philippines after the Gulf War.

466
00:35:51,883 --> 00:35:54,806
In McVeigh's trial, significant came evidence out, that either

467
00:35:54,807 --> 00:36:00,121
al Qaeda, Iraqi intelligence, or both assisted in the OKC bombing.

468
00:36:00,122 --> 00:36:06,700
And, more importantly, hundreds of thousands of documents were withheld by the FBI from McVeigh's attorneys.

469
00:36:06,701 --> 00:36:09,944
The Director of the FBI at that time was Louis Freeh.

470
00:36:09,945 --> 00:36:15,814
No one knows what these documents contained, but they very well could have had evidence that McVeigh, Nichols,

471
00:36:15,815 --> 00:36:18,782
and other conspirators planned the OKC bombing.

472
00:36:18,783 --> 00:36:24,848
See... That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't the government want to blame al Qaeda for OKC?

473
00:36:24,849 --> 00:36:27,032
Because it wasn't 9-11.

474
00:36:27,033 --> 00:36:29,088
Neither was the first World Trade Center bombing.

475
00:36:29,089 --> 00:36:33,967
You have to realize that the planning for 9-11 was years in advance,

476
00:36:33,968 --> 00:36:35,983
maybe even decades.

477
00:36:35,984 --> 00:36:41,796
All of the terrorist activity leading up to it are just little side-notes, little warnings of what was to come.

478
00:36:41,797 --> 00:36:45,249
So... OKC is part of a larger plan?

479
00:36:45,250 --> 00:36:46,712
Exactly.

480
00:36:46,713 --> 00:36:49,179
All part of the same psy-op.

[ElMondoHummus]

convicted OKC bomber Terry Nichols and convicted WTC93 bomber Ramzi Yousef were known to be Cebu City, a small town in the Philippines, at the same time.

... Cebu City isn't exactly a tourist mecca like Cancun.

... What could have brought these two disparate groups together in some Philippine hicktown?


Jesus... Before we even get around to the paranoia or politics, it's obvious you can't even get basic facts right. Cebu City is the 3rd largest city in the Philippines behind Manila and Davao.


The City of Cebu...is the capital of Cebu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cebu) in the Philippines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines) and is the second most important metropolitan center in the country... It is the country's main domestic shipping hub and is home to more than 80% of the country's inter-island shipping companies.

(Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cebu_City))


Over 50% of all people visiting the Philippines as tourists list Cebu as their main destination. It is the largest sea port in the nation, the second largest Air hub and the second largest city in the country. It is the fastest growing large city in the nation with an annual growth of over 5% per year.

(Source (http://wikitravel.org/en/Cebu_(city)); BTW, "second largest city" is wrong, Davao City is physically larger and as of 2005 more populated)

Cebu City happens to be one of the biggest metropolises in the Philippines, and is hardly some "Philippine hicktown". If you can't even get basic background info correct, what are we supposed to think of your speculations?

Now, onto those speculations:

Terry Nichols: Linked with White Supremacist Timothy McVeigh, inspired by the anti-semetic Turner Diaries.

Ramsey Yousef: Radical islamicist, known member of Al-Qaeda, known for anti-semetic rhetoric.

Congratulations. You managed to show that a pair of anti-semites happened to be in the same metropolis of 2 million people together. Assuming they met, what does that prove? That two haters of Jewish people were willing to learn about explosives off one another?


I'd like to hear what we all here think of these claims. As for myself, I'd say it's pretty clear the two bombings-- OKC and WTC93-- were both engineered by the same entity, which happened to have a base in the Philippines.


For the WTC 1993 event, the entity you're thinking of is Al-Qaeda; that group was known to have been helping the Abu Sayyaf rebels in southern Mindanao, which explains Yousef's presence. Are you trying to say that Al-Qaeda had a role in the Oklahoma City bombing now? Huh... Interesting speculation. Now, besides the odd coincidence of two foreigners being in a metropolis of over 2 million people, what's the link? A phone call?

You might be on to something about Al-Qaeda here, Train. You really think they had contact with Terry Nichols? You think Bin Laden's group was setting him up as some sort of patsy? That's where your evidence train is leading.

[A-Train]

Are you trying to say that Al-Qaeda had a role in the Oklahoma City bombing now? Huh... Interesting speculation. Now, besides the odd coincidence of two foreigners being in a metropolis of over 2 million people, what's the link? A phone call?

You might be on to something about Al-Qaeda here, Train. You really think they had contact with Terry Nichols? You think Bin Laden's group was setting him up as some sort of patsy? That's where your evidence train is leading.

OK, you're right about Cebu being a big city, but it's still an "off the beaten track" city just as Rohrabacher said.

Otherwise, dude, you're in serious denial. You're not going to be able to explain this one away very easily. You seem to have forgotten about the phone calls to the cousin of Nichols' Filipina wife in New York City. And this has nothing to do with "al-Qaeda" being involved with Oklahoma City. It's absurd to think an Islamist group would be working with Nichols and McVeigh in the Philippines. My "evidence train" is leading right where I said it was. Both these bombings were orchestrated by an organization that is neither "white supremacist" nor Islamic. Nichols and Yousef were patsies, just like I said.

Are you seriously contending that all this is a coincidence?

[beachnut]

In an extraordinary speech (http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2008/rohr022608.html) delivered on the House of Representatives floor a few weeks ago, California representative Dana Rohrabacher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Rohrabacher) detailed his frustrations trying to get the executive branch to investigate numerous coincidences linking the bombings of the World Trade Center in 1993 and of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City two years later. Most incredible of these coincidences is the evidence that convicted OKC bomber Terry Nichols and convicted WTC93 bomber Ramzi Yousef were known to be Cebu City, a small town in the Philippines, at the same time.
How do you find the idiots out there? How do you mess up and find the most stupid ideas you can on events in the real world? Why do you make up junk ideas?

Let us look at the statement you found in a speech from Dana, she said;Interestingly, both Nichols and Yousef used similar bombs and methods just 2 years apart to blow up two American targets. Yousef was the mastermind of the first attack on the World Trade Center in 1993. Nichols was a coconspirator in the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building in 1995. OH?

Tim McVeigh's bomb was made with 5,000 pounds (2,300 kg) of ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) fertilizer, nitromethane, and diesel fuel mixture.

The WTC 1993 bomb was 1,500-lb (680 kg) urea nitrate (CH5N2O, NO3) -fuel oil device. OHG, they used a urea nitrate main charge with aluminum, magnesium and ferric oxide distributed throughout, and several "booster" explosive components. He also used three tanks of bottled hydrogen. Where were the bottles of hydrogen in McVeigh's bomb? Oh, maybe Nichols forgot to tell McVeigh to use the bottles of hydrogen!? Duh, this is cool, your research proves you can find people who are as bad at research as you are. Wowzer. Where was the aluminum, magnesium, and ferric oxide on McVeigh's SIMILAR bomb! NOT so similar now! Why?

OMG, both were fertilizer bombs. But not the same. Gee, I wonder why? Why did Tim McVeigh picked the anniversary of Waco?

What was the WTC bomb goal?

How do you come up with these crazy ideas?

[leftysergeant]

Cebu City is a major hub of the sex tourism trade. Where's the surprise that Nicholls would go there? Did he, perhaps, meet his wife there?

If this all proves anytthing, it is that Christian Identity is in league with al Qaeda and should all be rounded up for questioning and every bed sheet and pair of socks in their homes should be unfolded and every books examined page-by-page.

This was at a time when the Soviet Union was crumbling and no longer much of a threat, thus not likely to be able to serve as a diversion when the white nationalists kicked off the RaHoWa.

Yes, it is entirely lausible that Nichols, McVeigh and al Qaeda had a hand in all the terrorists strikes in America over the last 15 years.

Maybe al Qaeda is a false-flag operation to support Chtristian Identity and National Vanguard.

[leftysergeant]

OK, you're right about Cebu being a big city, but it's still an "off the beaten track" city just as Rohrabacher said.


There are a lot of horn dog sailors laughing at this assertion.

My "evidence train" is leading right where I said it was. Both these bombings were orchestrated by an organization that is neither "white supremacist" nor Islamic. Nichols and Yousef were patsies, just like I said.

No, your evidence train terminates at Elohim City.

[ElMondoHummus]

OK, you're right about Cebu being a big city, but it's still an "off the beaten track" city just as Rohrabacher said.


Yeah, tell that to the Chinese, Japanese, and Australians.


Otherwise, dude, you're in serious denial. You're not going to be able to explain this one away very easily. You seem to have forgotten about the phone calls to the cousin of Nichols' Filipina wife in New York City. And this has nothing to do with "al-Qaeda" being involved with Oklahoma City. It's absurd to think an Islamist group would be working with Nichols and McVeigh in the Philippines. My "evidence train" is leading right where I said it was. Both these bombings were orchestrated by an organization that is neither "white supremacist" nor Islamic. Nichols and Yousef were patsies, just like I said.

Are you seriously contending that all this is a coincidence?

No, actually. Believe it or not, I'm willing to bet they met up. What I'm saying is that the evidence trail you present doesn't quite add up to both of them being controlled by the same organization. I'm willing to believe that both Nichols and Yousef either visited and learned off of the same bombmaker, or that one taught the other about explosives, but to think that both were controlled by the same organization is stretching credulity. Not to mention that it's not supported by your own argument, given that the phone call you bring up could easily have been due to the mundane reason of wanting to set up a visit to the Philippines to learn about bombmaking, and given that you've presented zero proof that there was any higher organization responsible for the interaction between the two.

Ramsey Yousef had ties to al-Qaeda. This is known. It is also known that al-Qaeda has involved itself with radical militant Islamic organizations in Mindanao. Rejecting al-Qaeda as the organization that "patsied" Yousef is ignoring reality.

Who knows who patsied Nichols, if anyone. Besides Timothy McVeigh, that is. But it's a stretch to think that some outside organization was responsible for his actions.

Anyway, you seem to have missed my sarcasm; it is indeed ridiculous to think al-Qaeda had anything to do with Nichols. What I was pointing out was that your argument was pointing in that direction. But you missed that. I'll take responsibility for not making that clear. Anyway, let's move on. You allude to a 3rd, so far unnamed part as being responsible for making them "patsies", one that's supposedly "neither ''White Supremist'' or Islamic". Gee, who could that be? Knowing your history, I'd speculate, but that would be unfair, because I think for once, we can eliminate one of your normal suspects. There aren't that many synagogues (aka "esnoga") in Cebu. Heck, I don't think there are any. So, who're you trying to pin this all on this time? The CIA? The "Neocons"?

(As an aside to everyone, I do have a bit of stupid, useless trivia to derail this thread with: One of the members of the Filipino version of the show Big Brother (Pinoy Big Brother (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinoy_Big_Brother)) - name of Uma Khouny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uma_Khouny#Uma_Khouny) - happens to be that rarest of rarae aves: A Jewish Filipino. Or, possibly more accurately, a Filipino-Israeli (Mom Filipina, dad Jewish); guess it all boils down to whether you hew to the Orthdox definition or the Reform one :). So you can rest assured that there are people of Jewish heritage in the Philippines. Very, very few, but they're there).

[Arus808]

OK, you're right about Cebu being a big city, but it's still an "off the beaten track" city just as Rohrabacher said.

you've never talked to a sailor have you?

[Brainache]

So Nichols and Yusef were both controlled by the Philipinos? Hang on, the Philipines is a Catholic country IIRC. Could it be the Catholics making patsies of these guys?

Mabye it was Chinese Baptists trying to implicate the Catholics and using Norwegian fertilizer as a red herring to fool the Indians into blaming Malaysia... bet you didn't think of that one Mr A-Train!

[leftysergeant]

It makes very good logistical sense for al Q and the Organization to link up. They both have the same goal in mind. Throw our civilization in the compost heap. The Organization is really good at providing safe houses and support for fugitives. There is also the plausible deniability advantage. So a dark-skinned person leaves a bomb in front of a government office. Had to be for Allah, rather than for a white nationalist cause, right?

[CptColumbo]

I was in cities that the 9/11 hijackers lived in, at the same time they were there. I was in cities that Timothy McVeigh was in prior to the OCK bombing. I don't recall ever seeing them.

[twinstead]

A-Train, this round peg in a square hole connect the dots action you have going here wouldn't even convince my 8 year old. Please, why don't you just save us some time and skip right to the bringing of the Jews into it. I'm sure there must have been a few Jews in the Philippines at the same time or something like that, huh?

ETA: see how it is when you're a racist? Hardly anybody wants to talk to you about anything. You're going to get Jew thrown in any thread you start or participate in. You could be pleasantly asking us to have a nice day and we're going to throw Jews into it. Isn't it fun being a bigot?

[SDC]

Hey A... I've lived most of my adult life in New York. By coincidence, McVeigh is from New York (state). The rest of my adult life I have lived in Michigan. Nichols is from Michigan. I was living in New York City at the time of the 1993 WTC bombing. I'm Jewish. Coincidence? Or am I the controller?

Though I've never been in the Philippines. Well, that was a diversion.

[Foolmewunz]

Well, the claim of seeing the phone records is a new one*, but the rest is old news for anyone who's followed the OKC fringe. I'm sure there are posters on this forum who have much stronger knowledge on the topic than I do, but I've heard this "AQ/Jihadists/OKC Connection" bit, so it's nothing new. (Funny how his defense attorney plotted Nichols' travels and doesn't agree with the visits to the Philippines timeline, isn't it?) You can find articles on this tenuous linkage dating back to the Nichols trial.

*This has been kicking around for years, and Rohrbacher has been digging and digging trying to find a smoking gun. I find it strange that he now has this tenuous link to a "row house in Queens" via Youssef's mobile phone records, and yet he doesn't produce the document. In that hour long drudge of a speech he introduced several other documents into the record.

He also doesn't mention that he sent the copy of the phone records to the DOJ, just that he brought it to their attention.

Produce the phone records, Congressman. There's that immunity thing going for you, so no one's going to sue you.

[rwguinn]

Well, the claim of seeing the phone records is a new one*, but the rest is old news for anyone who's followed the OKC fringe. I'm sure there are posters on this forum who have much stronger knowledge on the topic than I do, but I've heard this "AQ/Jihadists/OKC Connection" bit, so it's nothing new. (Funny how his defense attorney plotted Nichols' travels and doesn't agree with the visits to the Philippines timeline, isn't it?) You can find articles on this tenuous linkage dating back to the Nichols trial.

*This has been kicking around for years, and Rohrbacher has been digging and digging trying to find a smoking gun. I find it strange that he now has this tenuous link to a "row house in Queens" via Youssef's mobile phone records, and yet he doesn't produce the document. In that hour long drudge of a speech he introduced several other documents into the record.

He also doesn't mention that he sent the copy of the phone records to the DOJ, just that he brought it to their attention.

Produce the phone records, Congressman. There's that immunity thing going for you, so no one's going to sue you.

I seriously doubt that anyone can...
The phone record or whatever bluekush623 quotes is from a damn movie!

Don't let reality keep you from finding a conspiracy...

[gumboot]

What's the surprise? Bomb makers have to learn how to make their bombs somewhere.

[gumboot]

And just a little nitpick that always annoys me. Ramzi Yousef was trained in bombmaking at an Al Qaeda-managed camp, but he was never a member of Al Qaeda and the 1993 WTC bombing had nothing to do with Al Qaeda. He was freelance.

[Swing Dangler]

In an extraordinary speech (http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2008/rohr022608.html) delivered on the House of Representatives floor a few weeks ago, California representative Dana Rohrabacher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Rohrabacher) detailed his frustrations trying to get the executive branch to investigate numerous coincidences linking the bombings of the World Trade Center in 1993 and of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City two years later. Most incredible of these coincidences is the evidence that convicted OKC bomber Terry Nichols and convicted WTC93 bomber Ramzi Yousef were known to be Cebu City, a small town in the Philippines, at the same time.

What are we to make of this? Can this be just a coincidence? Cebu City isn't exactly a tourist mecca like Cancun. Rohrabacher continued:

It does seem more than a bit strange, doesn't it? We are told that the OKC bombing was carried out by two white trash lowlifes who hated the gub'mint. The WTC bombings were carried out by Moslem fanatics who hate our freedoms. What could have brought these two disparate groups together in some Philippine hicktown?

But the coincidences don't even begin to end there. Rohrabacher looked at the phone records of WTC mastermind Yousef. Yousef made numerous phone calls to a rowhouse in New York City. The occupant of the rowhouse was the cousin of Nichols' Filipina wife.

And guess what, there's even a possible link to 9/11. The link revolves around a Palestinian named Samir Khahil, an unindicted coconspirator of the WTC attacks. Rohrabacher apparently has some evidence that this man may have been working at Boston's Logan airport on the morning of 9/11!

(I wonder if it was this guys job to run the surveillance cameras of the passengers boarding the planes?)

So what do we all make of these shocking claims? Remember, this was a speech delivered on the floor of the House of Representatives, not a tirade on an internet radio station. And Rep. Rohrabacher seems quite a solid, Reaganesque conservative. Are we to believe Rohrabacher has gone woo, and is set to cash in writing books and making speeches to the huge twoofer market?

I'd like to hear what we all here think of these claims. As for myself, I'd say it's pretty clear the two bombings-- OKC and WTC93-- were both engineered by the same entity, which happened to have a base in the Philippines. The goals of both bombings were the same-- to instill hysteria into the American people and pave the way for legislation greatly expanding the police powers of the federal government. Nichols may have been a supremacist and Yousef may have been a Islamist; but both men were patsies being manipulated by the same entity that then went on to use the same techniques on 9/11.

Then again, maybe it is just a coincidence. Maybe Kevin Bacon was hanging out with the Nichols and Yousef getting a suntan down there in Cebu City.

Interesting research. The best science to date on the OKC Bombing was shown on the Discovery Channel entitled "Conspiracy Test: The Oklahoma Bombing" showed through actual experimentation by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology.

The end result of the experiment: a nearly identical truck with the same anfo "bomb" placed at the same distance as the original does very little damage to a single cement column. The explosion only peppered the cement column with fragments and barely moved it in the foundation. A second test with an open truck bed full of explosives arranged in a different manner had the same results on the cement column. In both tests, 1 cement column were neither destroyed, shattered, or blown apart as described by the official story.
You can find the episode on Youtube or download it via Torrent.

Within the same program, a graphic is presented by the Feds showing the number of columns that had to be destroyed to get the end result. Yet in a real world test, a column suffers very little damage let alone massive destruction as compared to the actual bombing.

This is pretty much the best evidence that there were additional explosives planted in the building to bring about the destruction of the Murrah building.

This begs the question, who has access to a secure Federal Building to be able to plant additional devices? Inside job anyone? Bueller...Bueller?

[WildCat]

Interesting research. The best science to date on the OKC Bombing was shown on the Discovery Channel entitled "Conspiracy Test: The Oklahoma Bombing" showed through actual experimentation by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology.

The end result of the experiment: a nearly identical truck with the same anfo "bomb" placed at the same distance as the original does very little damage to a single cement column. The explosion only peppered the cement column with fragments and barely moved it in the foundation. A second test with an open truck bed full of explosives arranged in a different manner had the same results on the cement column. In both tests, 1 cement column were neither destroyed, shattered, or blown apart as described by the official story.
You can find the episode on Youtube or download it via Torrent.

Within the same program, a graphic is presented by the Feds showing the number of columns that had to be destroyed to get the end result. Yet in a real world test, a column suffers very little damage let alone massive destruction as compared to the actual bombing.

This is pretty much the best evidence that there were additional explosives planted in the building to bring about the destruction of the Murrah building.

This begs the question, who has access to a secure Federal Building to be able to plant additional devices? Inside job anyone? Bueller...Bueller?
But it wasn't a column that failed in OKC - it was an exceptionally long beam, yes?

[gumboot]

I reckon I could get a concrete column to fail just by ramming a truck into it fast enough, let alone detonating a truck-sized bomb.

[Dave Rogers]

And guess what, there's even a possible link to 9/11. The link revolves around a Palestinian named Samir Khahil, an unindicted coconspirator of the WTC attacks. Rohrabacher apparently has some evidence that this man may have been working at Boston's Logan airport on the morning of 9/11!

Further, we asked help in finding the Arab immigrant who looked like John Doe II and the man who was employed by Samir Khahil. We traced him to Boston, but we have had no support or cooperation in finding this very possible terrorist, or at least terrorist suspect. He may well have been working at Boston's Logan Airport on 9/11/01, the day that a plane took off from that airport and was hijacked and crashed into the World Trade Center. Another weird coincidence to the Oklahoma City bombing. Another coincidence, yes.

(I wonder if it was this guys job to run the surveillance cameras of the passengers boarding the planes?)

This is brilliant. It's almost a perfect case study in conspiracist logic.

Let's see exactly what has been proven here. Someone who worked for Samir Khalil was, at some time in his life, in Boston. That's it.

Now, built on that, we have an unfounded guess from Rohrabacher that this unknown person may have been working at Logan on 9/11/01. Well, I've been to Boston twice, so there's twice as much "evidence" that I was working at Logan on 9/11/01 as there is for our unidentified Arab immigrant. Yet A-Train, master of the unfounded allegation presented as fact, has not only picked up this particular football, but has run with it, and morphed it into a suggestion that this person was running the surveillance cameras. Why stop there, A-Train? For all you know, he might have been the aircraft maintenance technician who single-handedly installed the modified nose gear doors that the Mossad hijackers jumped out of with their stealth parachutes and invisibility suits (which, you may remember, you deduced from the fact that two passenger seat assignments were swapped and there weren't any gunshots heard on the Flight 93 CVR). And I won't be surprised to see A-Train, within a couple of weeks, claiming it as proven fact that an associate of Samir Khahil was manning the surveillance cameras at Logan airport on the morning of 9-11, in blissful self-maintained ignorance of the fact that there weren't any surveillance cameras at Logan airport on the morning of 9-11.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=logan_airport

Idiotic.

Dave

ETA: A-Train's suggestion is even more absurd than I realised at first glance. Rohrabacher is talking about someone who worked for Khahil. A-Train has somehow morphed this into evidence that Khahil himself was manning the nonexistent surveillance cameras at Logan. Even more idiotic.

[Swing Dangler]

Double Post.

[Swing Dangler]

I reckon I could get a concrete column to fail just by ramming a truck into it fast enough, let alone detonating a truck-sized bomb.

Thats the problem. It didn't fail, collapse, or get blown apart. Peppered with debris and moved a bit in it's foundation that's it....on two separate blast tests.

[SDC]

Are we now into an OKC 1995 bombing inside job discussion? Hasn't that been covered, repeatedly?

[Foolmewunz]

Swing,
I can't find that video on YouTube, and I'd like to see it. I'd like to also see the credits and know if this was before or after the National Geographic's work which basically asserts that all the modeling done (and there were quite a few well known computer simulations) that had shown it to be impossible for the bomb to have done the damage claimed had ignored one factor. The 2nd floor was not bolted to the lower level it rested on it.

(I'm not saying the YouTube of the DC episode isn't available. My Google Fu is very weak... I also can't find the Nat'l Geo episode anywhere, but I recall seeing it about two or three years ago.)

[beachnut]

Thats the problem. It didn't fail, collapse, or get blown apart. Peppered with debris and moved a bit in it's foundation that's it....on two separate blast tests.
Wrong on this, and 9/11. How do you keep such a perfect record of wrong?

McVeigh's bomb did OKC. Pathetic people repeat the lies of others and make up stuff like this. A 4000 pound bomb is what OKC looks like, and McVeigh did it. Sorry, but you are lacking knowledge on this just like you are on 9/11.

Are you trying to mix in some of the bs from the OP too? sad

[WildCat]

Does anyone else here think it's funny that truthers think that Arabs blew up the Murrah building but white guys blew up the WTC?

[WildCat]

But it wasn't a column that failed in OKC - it was an exceptionally long beam, yes?
Oops! I was wrong on that, at least 1 column (probably 3) were destroyed by the blast. But the beam collapse is why the whole front of the building fell off.

[dudalb]

Does anyone else here think it's funny that truthers think that Arabs blew up the Murrah building but white guys blew up the WTC?

But according to A Train the Jews were behind both.......Twoofers,gotta love them.

[Brainache]

I see everyone is ignoring my "Chinese Baptist" theory in favour of A-Train's implied "Super Secret Philipino Jew Paratrooper" theory. I'm disappointed.

I have half a mind to start my own website: "TheProtocolsoftheeldersofShanghai.com"

[beachnut]

This is pretty much the best evidence that there were additional explosives planted in the building to bring about the destruction of the Murrah building.
Pure fantasy.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/12447453f8494776fe.jpg

The bomb in the truck was almost under the building (see how the building is almost in the street!?). A 4,000 pound bomb, like McVeigh's truck bomb, would destroy the building and kill the kids. To make up lies or push them along like you have, is pathetic.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1244747d1e1941156c.jpg
People were killed by the blast. Something that did not happen on 9/11; no blast effect deaths from explosives on 9/11. Most the building is still standing after the blast. You have no evidence of anything Swing, just hearsay and junk.
If you have proof of what are really lies right now, please go to the FBI and clear this up now, get your Pulitzer Prize, and take some action. As excepted you have nothing, just talk and are pathetically passing on the lies and hearsay rant of others.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1244747d1e350adcab.jpg
You lack of respect on OKC is like that for 9/11. Thanks for taking action to squelch the lies that disrespect those who died in OKC.

[A-Train]

Let's see exactly what has been proven here. Someone who worked for Samir Khalil was, at some time in his life, in Boston. That's it.

Now, built on that, we have an unfounded guess from Rohrabacher that this unknown person may have been working at Logan on 9/11/01.

It's not an unfounded guess; it's common knowledge. Samil Khalil's employee who was identified as the potential "John Doe II" at OKC is named Alhussain Hussaini. He later was employed as a baggage handler at Boston Logan airport, but disappeared after 9/11.
Extensive FBI collusion with Middle Eastern agents have surfaced in the OKC and first WTC bombing investigations. Impeachment attorney David Schippers reveals that McVeighs Iraqi helper, Al Hussain Husaini, was protected from discovery and released without prosecution. Hussaini was later allowed to get a job as a baggage handler at Boston Logan airport where the hijackings occurred. Schippers reports that prior to and after 9/11 the Justice Department did not want to hear his case, or those of the FBI agent whistleblowers he was representing.

http://www.worldaffairsbrief.com/keytopics/9-11update.html Dr. Samir Khalil , an OKC slumlord from Jordan employed Ahmad and Al Hussaini along with other Iraqi Republican guard members brought to the US after the first Gulf war by Presidents HW Bush and William Clinton.
Ahmad later acted as an interpreter for Hussaini at a news conference held by Khalil to announce that Hussaini was suing the OKC station KFORTV. CAIR, the Counsel on American Islamic Relations, as the spokesman defending accused terrorist groups and individuals in the US, spearheaded the verbal and legal attacks on KFORTV, their reporters and also terror expert Steve Emerson.
Hussaini's lawsuit against KFORTV eventually failed and the FBI never interrogated Hussaini even when he came to OKC for depositions in his lawsuit. Hussani became a baggage and food handler at Boston's Logan airport but went missing after the 9/11 attacks.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Briley/Patrick31.htm

[A-Train]

Hey A... I've lived most of my adult life in New York. By coincidence, McVeigh is from New York (state). The rest of my adult life I have lived in Michigan. Nichols is from Michigan. I was living in New York City at the time of the 1993 WTC bombing. I'm Jewish. Coincidence? Or am I the controller?

Though I've never been in the Philippines. Well, that was a diversion.

I was in cities that the 9/11 hijackers lived in, at the same time they were there. I was in cities that Timothy McVeigh was in prior to the OCK bombing. I don't recall ever seeing them.
-CtpColumboDo you guys really think this is analogous to Terry Nichols and Ramzi Yousef being in Cebu City, Philippines at the same time?

[ElMondoHummus]

Wait, wait, wait... before going any further, what about the fact they were in Cebu City together proves that the bombings they were responsible for was "orchestrated by an organization that is neither "white supremacist" nor Islamic". You make a huge leap there. Again, at best you've linked two people interested in bomb making together. That proves nothing beyond a common interest in explosives, and potentially a desire to learn off one another. That hardly leads to any sort of conclusion that they were "patsied" by the same organization. You've provided no supporting evidence of that.

[beachnut]

Do you guys really think this is analogous to Terry Nichols and Ramzi Yousef being in Cebu City, Philippines at the same time?
Go to OKC, and talk to the people. If you are human, you will stop spreading lies and stupid ideas. I have been to OKC, I have talked to the people in OKC, I have lived in OKC, and the people of OKC deserve better than your spreading of lies. If you can not help the people of OKC, then stop it. Stop spreading fraud.

[R.Mackey]

Interesting research. The best science to date on the OKC Bombing was shown on the Discovery Channel entitled "Conspiracy Test: The Oklahoma Bombing" showed through actual experimentation by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology.

The end result of the experiment: a nearly identical truck with the same anfo "bomb" placed at the same distance as the original does very little damage to a single cement column. The explosion only peppered the cement column with fragments and barely moved it in the foundation. A second test with an open truck bed full of explosives arranged in a different manner had the same results on the cement column. In both tests, 1 cement column were neither destroyed, shattered, or blown apart as described by the official story.
You can find the episode on Youtube or download it via Torrent.

Within the same program, a graphic is presented by the Feds showing the number of columns that had to be destroyed to get the end result. Yet in a real world test, a column suffers very little damage let alone massive destruction as compared to the actual bombing.

This is pretty much the best evidence that there were additional explosives planted in the building to bring about the destruction of the Murrah building.

If you set up columns alone near a test explosive, you will get the wrong answer. The entire structure would suffer a lateral load, pulling on the columns, whereas the columns by themselves present much less area and thus experience a vastly lower load. It's the same reason why a mast can snap in high winds when sails are flying, but the bare mast by itself will stand up to the fiercest hurricane.

On top of this, the large bluff area of the structure will reflect the shockwave and increase the absolute pressure, whereas the columns by themselves will not.

I've seen estimates that the overpressure was ~35 PSI at the outer wall. A lone column, unloaded, unconnected to structure could survive this. An entire building would not stand a chance. This is more than three times the overpressure required to destroy an average office building.

Unless there's more to this than meets the eye, I'm afraid I have to flunk the Discovery Channel for propagating poor science.

[Newtons Bit]

Oops! I was wrong on that, at least 1 column (probably 3) were destroyed by the blast. But the beam collapse is why the whole front of the building fell off.

The big issue here is that the columns were spaced twice as far apart on the bottom floor as on the floors above. This opens up the bottom floor to nice foyer areas to make a grand architectural statement, but is ultimately what led to the building collapsing the way it did. When the bomb detonated, one column on the bottom floor was damaged to failure (let's just say severed). The girder above this normally transfered the force from one column in it's midspan to adjacent columns. Because one of the supporting columns was destroyed, this girder now carries three columns over twice the distance it was originally designed for. This more than quadruples the bending moment in the column. To make matters worse, the concrete moment frame (that the beam is a part of) is an ordinary moment frame system. This basically means that it is a low-level of detailing that does not require the loads in the beam/columns to be reversed during design (this is necessary for seismic forces). This level of detailing allows the designers to save money (serious money) by not splicing the bottom reinforcement of the girders over the columns as normally there is no need at those locations. However with the column severed, this is the location of highest bending and where reinforcement is needed. The girder had at least 4 times the original bending moments in it and ZERO capacity.

It didn't even have a chance. However, building codes were updated, new buildings that are blast targets are no designed such that a single column failure will not result in collapse.

Edit: when I think about it, this is something that really needs a diagram...

[Newtons Bit]

If you set up columns alone near a test explosive, you will get the wrong answer. The entire structure would suffer a lateral load, pulling on the columns, whereas the columns by themselves present much less area and thus experience a vastly lower load. It's the same reason why a mast can snap in high winds when sails are flying, but the bare mast by itself will stand up to the fiercest hurricane.

On top of this, the large bluff area of the structure will reflect the shockwave and increase the absolute pressure, whereas the columns by themselves will not.

I've seen estimates that the overpressure was ~35 PSI at the outer wall. A lone column, unloaded, unconnected to structure could survive this. An entire building would not stand a chance. This is more than three times the overpressure required to destroy an average office building.

Unless there's more to this than meets the eye, I'm afraid I have to flunk the Discovery Channel for propagating poor science.

This is correct, and one of the reasons why concrete buildings can be more susceptible to blasts than steel framed buildings. The cladding and even the light-gage framing itself on steel buildings will typically blow out before they can deliver fatal forces to the columns. Furthermore, in steel buildings, the walls are typically connected directly to the lateral system via the diaphragm, while in concrete buildings the columns themselves have a large tributary area of wall.

[Corsair 115]

I recall an episode of PBS' Nova from many years ago which dealt with the OKC bombing. It covered in pretty good detail how and why the building collapsed.

[Firestone]

It's not an unfounded guess; it's common knowledge. Samil Khalil's employee who was identified as the potential "John Doe II" at OKC is named Alhussain Hussaini. He later was employed as a baggage handler at Boston Logan airport, but disappeared after 9/11.Extensive FBI collusion with Middle Eastern agents have surfaced in the OKC and first WTC bombing investigations. Impeachment attorney David Schippers reveals that McVeighs Iraqi helper, Al Hussain Husaini, was protected from discovery and released without prosecution. Hussaini was later allowed to get a job as a baggage handler at Boston Logan airport where the hijackings occurred. Schippers reports that prior to and after 9/11 the Justice Department did not want to hear his case, or those of the FBI agent whistleblowers he was representing.

http://www.worldaffairsbrief.com/keytopics/9-11update.htmlI love it how you "forget" to quote the relevant parts from your own source.
Let me do it for you:

“Alhussaini moved from Oklahoma City and was reportedly living in the Boston area. His lawyer declined to give me a phone number for his client. According to 1997 medical records produced during his federal suit, Alhussaini said he had worked for a while at Boston's Logan Airport (where two of the planes were hijacked on Sept. 11). Quoting from those records, Alhussaini first told his psychiatrist that he had quit his airport job because, "If anything happens there, I will be a suspect." However, he later told his doctor that he "wanted to look for another job because he feels unsafe in the environment he works in, the airport, given the recent events involving his being previously suspected of involvement in the Oklahoma bombing."(bolding mine)

So, dear A-Train, where is the evidence that Alhussain Hussaini worked at Logan airport in 2001?

[leftysergeant]

I would need some background on the tests that were supposedly conducted to determine their relevance to the bomb at the Murrah Building. If they are using any of Partin's BS, I really have my doubts about their validity.

I notice that Partin shows the pressure falling off at equal rates both inside and outside the building. This does not look right to me.

Perhaps it is a mistake to think of the blast effect as a shearing force acting on one plane against the columns. Wouldn't a blast from ANFO, being a rather slow build-up of pressure, lift the upper parts pf the structure and drop them back down on elements below? I don't think this is one of the things an engineer would plan for.

[R.Mackey]

I notice that Partin shows the pressure falling off at equal rates both inside and outside the building. This does not look right to me.

Yeah, that's pretty much nonsense...


Perhaps it is a mistake to think of the blast effect as a shearing force acting on one plane against the columns. Wouldn't a blast from ANFO, being a rather slow build-up of pressure, lift the upper parts pf the structure and drop them back down on elements below? I don't think this is one of the things an engineer would plan for.

Here's some background reading (http://www.mipt.org/pdf/forensicengineering2.pdf). Apparently the blast (not strictly ANFO) was actually quite sharp, peaking for only about 1.5 milliseconds at the first incidence, owing in part to its rather close placement. However, the pressure is substantially higher than I had been led to believe -- the normalized overpressure is more like 140 PSI! :eye-poppi

There would be a vertical effect on some of the floor slabs, as described in this paper. It probable that the structure was less able to deal with an upward load, but given the inevitable destruction of load-bearing columns this seems to be academic.

[A-Train]

It makes very good logistical sense for al Q and the Organization to link up. They both have the same goal in mind. Throw our civilization in the compost heap. The Organization is really good at providing safe houses and support for fugitives. There is also the plausible deniability advantage. So a dark-skinned person leaves a bomb in front of a government office. Had to be for Allah, rather than for a white nationalist cause, right?

Wow. I'd never even considered that someone would bring up the possibility of al-Qaeda and anti-government militia types like McVeigh being in league together.

If I remember correctly, McVeigh hated the federal government for what it did at Waco. I never knew he was into Jew-hating and civilization-destroying. Just the prospect of this is enough to reduce me to tears of laughter. How exactly do the Islamist radicals reach out to the gub'mint hating white trash? Does al-Qaeda have outreach centers, trolling through trailer parks, metal concerts and gun shows looking for hard-ass white guys to join up with them in a common mission of Jew-killing and civilization-destroying?

Someone should get a hold of the Coen brothers. This has the underpinnings of a hilarious sitcom.

[beachnut]

both Nichols and Yousef used similar bombs and methods just 2 years apart to blow up two American targets. Yousef was the mastermind of the first attack on the World Trade Center in 1993. Nichols was a coconspirator in the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building in 1995."
-Rep. Dana Rohrabacher Feb. 26, 2008
pathetically poor research from a position of total ignorance

[Pardalis]

I just noticed this thread, so I'll ask A-Train the same question I asked in his poll thread:

There seems to be another conspiracy theory about this:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/cases/86/complaint.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...1/ai_n10150785 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20020321/ai_n10150785)

Some of the families of the Oklahoma City bombing victims filing lawsuit against Hussein's Iraq. :boggled:

So A-Train, which conspiracy theory will you choose to follow?

I mean, these are the victims' families, they can't possibly be wrong or misguided can they? ;)

[A-Train]

Some of the families of the Oklahoma City bombing victims filing lawsuit against Hussein's Iraq.

So A-Train, which conspiracy theory will you choose to follow?

I mean, these are the victims' families, they can't possibly be wrong or misguided can they?

Sure, why not? Why not go after Iraq's money? Who's going to defend them?

I read through most of the lawsuit you posted. Some very interesting material regarding Nichols and Yousef in Philippines, including the allegation of a Phillipino government informant that he saw the two together numerous times.

The plaintiffs follow the line that Yousef was working for "al-Qaeda," and was also training Nichols as well. I though it was well-established that al-Qaeda-- real or imaginary-- had no ties to the Sunni Baathist regime of Saddam Hussein. But if you can believe the silliness that al-Qaeda was training Terry Nichols in the Philippines to bomb the Murrah builing, why no throw in Iraq as well?

I personally believe it is laughable that there was any cooperation of any sort between Islamic radicals and a couple of militia dimwits like McVeigh and Nichols-- in the Philippines or anywhere else. Far more likely that both Yousef and Nichols were patsies being handled by a sophisticated network, most likely Mossad, operating out of the Philippines.

[Pardalis]

most likely Mossad, operating out of the Philippines.

And what gives you this idea? I mean besides the fact that you're a raving antisemite?

[ElMondoHummus]

...most likely Mossad, operating out of the Philippines.

You have provided zero proof of this.

[Firestone]

So a right-wing extremist allegedly meets a muslim fundamentalist in the Philippines.

Conclusion? The Mossad dit it! :jaw-dropp

A-Train, is there any set of circumstances imaginable that doesn't lead to the same conclusion in your mind? Just asking, of course.

[Brainache]

Far more likely that both Yousef and Nichols were patsies being handled by a sophisticated network, most likely Mossad, operating out of the Philippines.

I keep telling you A-Train: The Chinese Baptists! They have way more to gain than the Jews. You wanna talk about a downtrodden minority with a vested interest in toppling the great satan? Look no further...

http://old.ccsb.ca/um/images/EvangleCBChurchEnglishMinLeaders002small.jpg

[Pardalis]

The plaintiffs follow the line that Yousef was working for "al-Qaeda," and was also training Nichols as well.

Btw, you must have read too fast, Al Qaeda is not mentioned in the lawsuit.

[twinstead]

I knew the Jews would enter the picture eventually, A-Train, but this time I suspect you're just having a little fun with us.

Nobody is really that ignorant.

[leftysergeant]

Nobody is really that ignorant.

Then explain the existance of white nationalists.

And OKC had nothing to do with Waco. That was just an red herring to draw attention away from their real motivation, which was the execution on the same day of Richard Wayne Snell, a person known and admired by McVeigh.

[twinstead]

Then explain the existance of white nationalists.


Point taken. People can indeed be THAT ignorant.

[leftysergeant]

If I remember correctly, McVeigh hated the federal government for what it did at Waco. I never knew he was into Jew-hating and civilization-destroying. Just the prospect of this is enough to reduce me to tears of laughter. How exactly do the Islamist radicals reach out to the gub'mint hating white trash? Does al-Qaeda have outreach centers, trolling through trailer parks, metal concerts and gun shows looking for hard-ass white guys to join up with them in a common mission of Jew-killing and civilization-destroying?

You got that bass-ackwards, A-Train. And that McVeigh protested Waco had nothing to do with why the bomb went off that day. He was responding to John Trochmann's call to make that a "Red-Letter Day for the Militia, because Richard Wayne Snell, with whom both McVeigh and Trochmann had had dealings at Elohim City, was being executed for two racially-motivated murders that day.


With the fall of the Soviet Union, the Organization had been deprived of an outside threat who could be duped into helping distract the Establishment from Organization activities. Linking up with al Q seems to me a good alternative plan. Distract the government, stir the shrieking monkeys up to distrust the government, and HELLO SUEFUL IDIOTS. They are, I can assure you, waiting to step into the leadership positions when the whiney twoofers don't get a new investigation in 2009 and decide to take up arms.