Boycott engines packed in like sardine can!

[Iamme]

Any of you used to be 'motorheads'?

Know why I said *used to be*?

If you've looked under a car hood lately, you might know why. Where IS everything?! I've seen vehicles where you can't find, or get at the battery, plugs or belts.

I know a lady who got a $600 estimate to change out all the belts on a newer van! Supposedly they have to take off all kinds of parts, and even possibly have to jack up the engine!

This is ridiculous! I used to LUV working on cars, both to save money and to have something to do. Now they have all these computer circuit links, extra jacks, extra 'brain boxes, extra vacouum do-hickeys...and on and on. What a nightmare.

Some of us ain't rich. We relied on our ability to save money by working on our own vehicles. Those days are going by the wayside, as did the local town dump (And i miss those TOO, I might add! The dump was the local 'water hole' for all the guys.)

I think we know that there is no going back. As long as we have the internal combustion engine, we are going to see more complex and numerous devices to combat pollution and raise efficiency.

But I think that we can get the message out that we demand at LEAST access to some of the typical parts that a fairly handy shade tree mechanic can fix himself: Like plugs, wires, alternator, thermostat, water pump, battery, all the belts, starter...stuff like that.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Iamme
Any of you used to be 'motorheads'?

Know why I said *used to be*?

If you've looked under a car hood lately, you might know why. Where IS everything?! I've seen vehicles where you can't find, or get at the battery, plugs or belts.

I know a lady who got a $600 estimate to change out all the belts on a newer van! Supposedly they have to take off all kinds of parts, and even possibly have to jack up the engine!

This is ridiculous! I used to LUV working on cars, both to save money and to have something to do. Now they have all these computer circuit links, extra jacks, extra 'brain boxes, extra vacouum do-hickeys...and on and on. What a nightmare.

Some of us ain't rich. We relied on our ability to save money by working on our own vehicles. Those days are going by the wayside, as did the local town dump (And i miss those TOO, I might add! The dump was the local 'water hole' for all the guys.)

I think we know that there is no going back. As long as we have the internal combustion engine, we are going to see more complex and numerous devices to combat pollution and raise efficiency.

But I think that we can get the message out that we demand at LEAST access to some of the typical parts that a fairly handy shade tree mechanic can fix himself: Like plugs, wires, alternator, thermostat, water pump, battery, all the belts, starter...stuff like that.

It all depends on a car you want to buy. If you shell out for a BMW or Mercedes you can forget about working on that engine. However, if you get a Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Chevy or Ford there are lots of parts available (for most engines), so you can cherry out your ride in almost any way you want. Sure, there are computers on most cars now days but you can buy computer chips for those increasing the possibility of modifications.

[Mr. Skinny]

I've driven VW Rabbits (Golfs) for the last 25 years, owning four of them............well, 5 actually since I bought a 2002 GTI recently.

The earlier models were incredibly easy to work on. All the plugs right up front where you could see them. Adjusting your clutch took two open end wrenches and 15 minutes time. Oil changes were a breeze. Alternators took about an hour. Starters took 45 minutes.

The new GTI has plastic covers over everything. There is a turbocharger packed in the space I used to have to get to "stuff". I took it to an oil change place (first time I decided to let someone else do it) and they refused to change my oil because VW uses plastic screws to secure a skid plate over the oil pan. I guess their air powered torque wrenches don't have a "you really should be using a hand powered screwdriver" setting.

It's frustratiing. Fortunately, my desire to do my own work on my cars faded as my age and income increased. I do feel for those folks who would like to, or are forced to out of economic necessity, work on their own cars.

[jj]

I used to do all my own car work, from changing oil to rebuilding heads and whole short blocks.

Now, I use the dealer. There's so (*&(& much specialty stuff on the (*&(* cars, and nothing to adjust.

Having the funds to do it had some effect, I'm sure, but more than that, the inability to even find the distributor (since none of my cars have one any more, it's a computer attached to individual coils now) is, for instance.

[Badger]

Lamme, a buddy of mine is selling his mint '64 Nova SS. I can't remember how many miles on it, but I rode in it and it's like it came out of the showroom.

Seriously, I have a couple of new Toyotas, and I can't work on them. Totally frustrating!

Fortunately, I also have an old pickup, and an even older Landcruiser, which are easy to maintain.

Maybe you should look at an older vehicle, a classic perhaps, and keep it in tip top condition yourself?

[Tormac]

I know what you mean lamme. I've removed about 10 lbs worth of useless plastic shields off of my Toyota. I guess they were there to hide the exhaust, steering pump, and other ugly mechanical bits. They would turn a 10-minute job of changing the oil into a 1-hour job. The really frustrating thing is I understand that in Japan the annoying plastic junk is an option, where it comes standard on the Mr-2 here in the states.

Still cars are getting nicer. I don't miss fighting with the carburetor in the old skylark I used to own one bit.

[jj]

Originally posted by Tormac
I don't miss fighting with the carburetor in the old skylark I used to own one bit.

You got that right. I don't miss carburetors at all.

What I want to find out some day is how my old (no longer in existance, body rotted away, basically) 1969 Pontiac Catalina ex-highway-patrol pursuit cruiser would work with a good over-the-valve fuel injection system, a modern ignition system with per-cylender sensors, and the old suspension, modern controls on the old tranny, etc. :)

(428 10.75:1, with rotten intake manifold and not-bad exhaust manifold... that intake manifold and all those (*&( quadrajets wouldn't be an issue any more) :)

[Charlie Monoxide]

I too miss the good old days when all you needed was a socket set, screwdriver, duct tape, and a case of beer. "Car Repair" is somewhat of an oxymoron. It seems every time I bring my Toyota Truck (1995) in to get fixed, something else breaks down a week or so later. They don't even "repair" anymore. Mostly it's yank out and replace.

Charlie (what's with all those vacuum hoses on NA cars?) Monoxide

[a_unique_person]

The upside is that my Holden Astra has a 1.8 litre engine hiding in a space that is very small and sloping, giving me more room and giving the car better aerodynamics.

[peptoabysmal]

I just bought a Dodge 2500 4x4 ("You got a Hemi in that thang?"). My warranty specifies that no one can touch the engine except a dealer. Just as well, I have looked at it and have been quite mystified. And yes, I have spent many a late night with a carburetor spread out on a workbench. The warranty does include a certain amount of free work; oil changes, tire rotations, certain tune-ups, etc.

[Jon_in_london]

Yeah, well my mothers car needed a new timing belt. This involved disconnecting everything and lifting the engine out its bay- a six hour job!!! (car was a Peugeot 405).

I used to have a mini. You need to have mini hands and mini tools to do anything to a mini.

[MRC_Hans]

Very appropriate thread for me! I just got back from having a workshop change a front-light bulb! On my first car, I changed the clutch, but that was 35 years ago (35??? Really? Jesh!). My present ride (a Citroen C3) has a 1.6 litre engine with A/C, power steering, ALB, etc. packed into an engine room that is probably smaller than that of the old Mini. So now there is room left for two very lean spiders. I simply couldn't get my hand in there well enough to grope around for that small spring to release the bulb.

Of course we could get the good old days back. That was when a 1.6 litre engine yielded 60hp and ran about nine km/l. When power steering and power brakes were for limousines and trucks, and anti-lock brakes were for aircraft. When airbags and seatbelt-tighteners were science fiction.


Hans;)

[Agammamon]

Originally posted by Grammatron


It all depends on a car you want to buy. If you shell out for a BMW or Mercedes you can forget about working on that engine.

Exactly. If it improve performance, you can put all the bells and whistles you want on my engine and cram it into the smallest space possible, since basically I would not be qualified to work on a lawnmower engine it makes no never mind to me.

Otherwise you motoheads will just have to stick to the older cars (which I would of thought you guys would like anyway since they usually have a higher power to mass ratio than todays econoboxes).

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Of course we could get the good old days back. That was when a 1.6 litre engine yielded 60hp and ran about nine km/l. When power steering and power brakes were for limousines and trucks, and anti-lock brakes were for aircraft. When airbags and seatbelt-tighteners were science fiction.


Of course, all of this started happening when the mini introduced a transverse engine and squished in the bonnet (hood) to fit around it. Good old rear-wheel drives cant help but have loads of space each side of the motor.

[richardm]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Very appropriate thread for me! I just got back from having a workshop change a front-light bulb! .... I simply couldn't get my hand in there well enough to grope around for that small spring to release the bulb.


If if you had been able to, of course you'd never have been able to get it back in again. That happened to me a couple of months ago. Quite embarrassing!


Of course we could get the good old days back.


Yes, the good old days, when you had to be able to know how to dismantle and reassemble a carburettor. I haven't had to spray an engine with WD:40 in winter to make it start for about seven years now. I like modern cars! Pity about the headlight assemblies, though.

[a_unique_person]

And why can't they all just have the same, round headlights like they used to. I would like to have the modern car without the carburettor or timing points, but with the simple, round head lights.

[DaChew]

Still do all of my own repair work. It's just different now. If there's any engine problem at all I just plug the OBD II scan tool into the socket and immediately find out where the problem is. I wouldn't trade any modern engine you can name for something from the good old days. Back in the 70s if you had an engine with 70k on it it was old. Now I've got a GM Series 2 3.8 V6 with 150k on it and the compression is still well within spec. I expect to get over 200k out of it with no major problems. Give me fuel injection any day over a Rochester 4 barrel. The plugs are hard to get at in new engines? So what? They last nearly 100k now. Starters and alternators are nearly the same.

One more thing. Modern cars are easier to fix for two reasons: Part quality and interchangeability is way better than it used to be and fasteners are lightyears more robust than they used to be. Back in the good old days the manufacturers used fasteners that only had to hold the part on until the car left the dealership lot. Now that the dealers are doing more and more of the work it has become economically advantagious for them to use better quality fasteners. Sure, it takes longer to do the work than it used to and there's more technical knowledge involved but it ain't rocket science. Plus the internet is a great source for learning how to fix a particular problem. You can even find schematics and blow ups of the areas you're interested in. I have a computer in my garage now.

[MRC_Hans]

Ahh, yes, forgot that one in my "good old days" rant: When service intervals were 10,000 km (but you topped up the oil every 2,500).

No, I don't miss them days either (even if I can no longer change them d@mn bulbs). And power density in economy boxes? I dont' know about that. I have 110hp (DIN) in a one ton hatch-back, it tops at 195 km/h (saiz the book, I ain't gonna try it out :eek: ). My first car, a Sunbeam Imp, considered quite sporty in the cheap end those days, had 42 hp (SAE) and could go almost 140 if you didn't mind it trashing all over the road and sounding like it was about to fall apart. But I could change the clutch meself (and it only took the whole week-end and my nails were only black for a week).

Hans

[Tony]

DaChew, is your avatar an LT1?

[DaChew]

DaChew, is your avatar an LT1?

No sir. That's the GM Ramjet 502 crate motor.

[Tony]

Originally posted by DaChew


No sir. That's the GM Ramjet 502 crate motor.

Ohh cool. Do you have that beast installed in one of your cars?

[DaChew]

Do you have that beast installed in one of your cars?

No, that will be going into a 76' Chevy pickup I'm (all too slowly) rebuilding.

[subgenius]

Easy access (72 Lincoln Mark IV 460 4bbl...33,000 miles)

[subgenius]

Easier access (1971 Fiat Cinquecento upgraded to 650cc)

[Tony]

Are those your cars Sub?

[subgenius]

My babies. Always wanted to get a trailer to pull the Fiat (950 pounds) behind the Lincoln (5000 pounds), but someone pointed out it would be much funnier the other way around.

[subgenius]

Back on the topic of cramped engine compartments, my brother just bought an old Escort to drive in the winter while he stores his new MINI. There's a bracket on it that you have to remove the engine to replace. When he went to the junkyard to buy one, and said to the guy it'll be hard getting that out, the guy whipped out some sort of steel cutting tool and just cut away the inside fender.
The engineers of these things don't ever have to work on them in the real world. Its easy to install them in the factory, and then the parts become inaccessible.
Friend in college had a (?) where you had to lift the engine to change one of the spark plugs.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by DaChew
Still do all of my own repair work. It's just different now. If there's any engine problem at all I just plug the OBD II scan tool into the socket and immediately find out where the problem is. I wouldn't trade any modern engine you can name for something from the good old days. Back in the 70s if you had an engine with 70k on it it was old. Now I've got a GM Series 2 3.8 V6 with 150k on it and the compression is still well within spec. I expect to get over 200k out of it with no major problems. Give me fuel injection any day over a Rochester 4 barrel. The plugs are hard to get at in new engines? So what? They last nearly 100k now. Starters and alternators are nearly the same.

One more thing. Modern cars are easier to fix for two reasons: Part quality and interchangeability is way better than it used to be and fasteners are lightyears more robust than they used to be. Back in the good old days the manufacturers used fasteners that only had to hold the part on until the car left the dealership lot. Now that the dealers are doing more and more of the work it has become economically advantagious for them to use better quality fasteners. Sure, it takes longer to do the work than it used to and there's more technical knowledge involved but it ain't rocket science. Plus the internet is a great source for learning how to fix a particular problem. You can even find schematics and blow ups of the areas you're interested in. I have a computer in my garage now.

Exactly!

While perusing this thread I was hoping to be the first one to make this comment. I have a 2000 Jeep Cherokee with the 4.0 Litre straight 6...a venerable old "bulletproof" design...coupled with electronic ignition and fuel injection. It's really the very best of both worlds...an old straight 6 with lots of torque and plenty of room under the hood to get to everything...coupled with all the modern computers, etc.... I also have a code scanner, and whent the "check engine" light comes on, it's hook up the scan and let the little box tell me just what part of the engine is feeling poorly. Try that in the "good ole days"!!

My wife has an old VW Cabriolet with the 2.8 Litre 4...that thing has over 150K on it and back "in the day" a car over 10 years old with half that many miles would likely be in a junk yard. The body is in perfect shape...yet I remember a car I had in high school that had what we called "Florida VD"...body rot...you could see the road going by thru the floor. That car was about the same age my wife's is now. She loves the little cab...I just put a new conv top on it that I bought on the internet for $60....and I found no less than 10 web sites that offered great instructions for installing it. Both cars run perfectly...both are fed nothing but full synthetic oil. The great thing about synths is that not only do they protect better, you only have to change the oil and filter every 7,500 miles or 6 months.

Hey, the good ole days are BS....as long as you are careful about the model you buy, you can still do routine maint.

-z

PS: I once did own a Ford Taurus with a 3.8 litre 6....the damn thing was near impossible to work on, the brake disks would warp, the sensors would crap out,...at 50,000 miles the head gasket blew....did that job myself, but then @ 100,000 miles the head gasket blew again....Ford crap! :mad:

[DaChew]

I have a 2000 Jeep Cherokee with the 4.0 Litre straight 6...
I have a great deal of fondness in my heart for Jeep Wagoneers. They don't stop, ever and they will go through or over anything in their path. Mine had the 360 V8 and genuine faux woodgrain siding. I still kick myself for selling it.

The great thing about synths is that not only do they protect better, you only have to change the oil and filter every 7,500 miles or 6 months.

I've decided to never have an opinion about that. Oil quality and change intervals are two subjects that will start long drawnout flame wars on car and hot rod boards. It's the automotive equivalent of going to our politics board and posting a thread with the title "Why liberals suck".