Cebu City-- Coincidence, or something else?

[A-Train]

The other thread I started on this subject got derailed by some who wanted to discuss the OKC boming of the Murrah Federal Building. What I wanted to discuss was some of the revelations made by California Representative Dana Rohrabacher in an extraordinary speech (http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2008/rohr022608.html) on the House floor a few weeks ago. In the speech, Rohrabacher pointed out some amazing coincidences, most notably that convicted OKC bomber Terry Nichols and convicted WTC93 bomber Ramsey Yousef were both known to have been in Cebu City, Philippines at the same time before going on to use similar bombs to blow up American targets.

"These individuals, one American and one Arab, were responsible for planning two of the most lethal terrorist attacks on our countrymen in our history. We are to believe that by coincidence they ended up in the same off-the-beaten track city in the Southern Philippines? One doesn't have to be a conspiracy nut to understand this coincidence is worth looking into."

-Dana RohrabacherRohrabacher went on to lament that the Justice Department refuses to have any interest in this alleged coincidence, and that it also refuses to allow him to interview either of the bombers who are now incarcerated in federal prisons.

I find these allegations, made by someone with the stature of Rohrabacher, to be far more devastating to the "debunker" mindset than everything said by Rosie O'Donnell, Charlie Sheen and Marion Cotillard combined and multiplied by ten.

What do you think? Is the Cebu City connection just a coincidence, or something more? Please participate in this poll and leave a comment explaining your vote.

[Redtail]

I see no "It's a coincidence, I'm often in a city with other people". Better yet, simply, "It's a coincidence."

[Brainache]

What? No Chinese Baptists?

[Pardalis]

Has this claim been corroborated?

[DGM]

How do we know they actually met? If we don't then there's no option on the poll that fits (except maybe "never happened").

[beachnut]

to use similar bombs to blow up American targets. Your ideas are failed. Your own post derails your OP.

Tim McVeigh's bomb was made with 5,000 pounds (2,300 kg) of ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) fertilizer, nitromethane, and diesel fuel mixture.

The WTC 1993 bomb was 1,500-lb (680 kg) urea nitrate (CH5N2O, NO3) -fuel oil device. OHG, they used a urea nitrate main charge with aluminum, magnesium and ferric oxide distributed throughout, and several "booster" explosive components. He also used three tanks of bottled hydrogen. Where were the bottles of hydrogen in McVeigh's bomb? Oh, maybe Nichols forgot to tell McVeigh to use the bottles of hydrogen!? Duh, this is cool, your research proves you can find people who are as bad at research as you are. Wowzer. Where was the aluminum, magnesium, and ferric oxide on McVeigh's SIMILAR bomb! NOT so similar now! Why?

Her basic premise is not strong. I would have to say the bombs were different. Looks like McVeigh is a better terrorist bomb builder, and most American kids need little help to make fertilizer bombs (it is a right of passage, cooking your KNO3 with some sugar, and basting the kitchen)! I did it at 11, as my parents did not like my versions of a small volcano blowing up the back yard. Seems like the only people who need training to building bombs are Islamic terrorist and neo nazis who are all dumb as dirt.

How do you find such research challenged, illogical thinking people?

[SpitfireIX]

I see no "It's a coincidence, I'm often in a city with other people". Better yet, simply, "It's a coincidence."


Seconded. I decline to participate in your poll due to the lack of a simple "It was a coincidence" choice.

[Pardalis]

I found this:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/cases/86/complaint.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20020321/ai_n10150785

Some of the families of the Oklahoma City bombing victims filing lawsuit against Hussein's Iraq. :boggled:

So A-Train, which conspiracy theory will you choose to follow?

[A-Train]

Seconded. I decline to participate in your poll due to the lack of a simple "It was a coincidence" choice.

I see no "It's a coincidence, I'm often in a city with other people". Better yet, simply, "It's a coincidence."

-RedtailFair enough. But do you have anything to say about the other related coincidences detailed in Rohrabacher's speech?

The status of Samir Khahil, an unindicted coconspirator in the WTC93 bombing. It is also the name of an Iraqi man in Oklahoma City at the time of the Murrah bombing, who employed a man fitting the description of "John Doe II," who later was employed at Boston Logan airport. Just another coincidence, guys?
The cell phone records of Yousef, obtained by Rohrabacher. Yousef made numerous calls to a house in Queens, NY. The house was occupied by the cousin of Nichols' Filipina wife. Just another coincidence, guys?When you're done dealing with those additional coincidences, I'd like you to address an issue which is actually the theme of Rohrabacher's speech. Why does the Michael Chertoff-controlled Justice Department refuse to acknowldedge, much less investigate, these coincidences? Why won't the Chertoff-controlled Justice Dept. allow Rohrabacher to interview either the incarcerated Nichols or Yousef?

What is DHS chairman and Israeli citizen Chertoff trying to hide?

[Pardalis]

I asked the mods to merge this with your other thread.

The poll is useless anyways.

[HeyLeroy]

Do you have any evidence that they knew each other? The first option in your poll tends to suggest this.

[Firestone]

The status of Samir Khahil, an unindicted coconspirator in the WTC93 bombing. It is also the name of an Iraqi man in Oklahoma City at the time of the Murrah bombing, who employed a man fitting the description of "John Doe II," who later was employed at Boston Logan airport. Just another coincidence, guys?When was he employed at Boston Logan airport?

Your own source (which you forgot to quote, but I was kind enough to do it for you here (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3509011&postcount=42)) puts this employment in 1997 (or before).
Please explain the relevance of this "coincidence" with hijackings in 2001.

[cisco]

You're going to see coincidences, or conspiracies, where you want to see them. You want to see them everywhere. If you're sincerely passionate about this then why don't you do some real (non-internet) research and investigation and dig up some facts? Construct a hypothesis and attempt to confirm or reject it. The best you could possibly hope to come out of spamming us with conjecture is satisfaction of your ego.

Or, for an alternative response to your OP, see my signature. I'll let you decide which quote.

[ElMondoHummus]

As I said in the other thread:


... before going any further, what about the fact they were in Cebu City together proves that the bombings they were responsible for was "orchestrated by an organization that is neither "white supremacist" nor Islamic". You make a huge leap there. Again, at best you've linked two people interested in bomb making together. That proves nothing beyond a common interest in explosives, and potentially a desire to learn off one another. That hardly leads to any sort of conclusion that they were "patsied" by the same organization. You've provided no supporting evidence of that.


But, that lack of evidence doesn't seem to stop you from leaping to an unsupported conclusion:

Far more likely that both Yousef and Nichols were patsies being handled by a sophisticated network, most likely Mossad, operating out of the Philippines.

The problem is, you've provided zero evidence of this. Saying those two met does not mean they are controlled by the same organization. There is no logical connection between "meeting" and having the same bosses. None of the evidence you've provided so far points at Mossad.

[Redtail]

Fair enough. But do you have anything to say about the other related coincidences detailed in Rohrabacher's speech?
[QUOTE]The status of Samir Khahil, an unindicted coconspirator in the WTC93 bombing. It is also the name of an Iraqi man in Oklahoma City at the time of the Murrah bombing, who employed a man fitting the description of "John Doe II," who later was employed at Boston Logan airport. Just another coincidence, guys?Yep. Coincidence.

The cell phone records of Yousef, obtained by Rohrabacher. Yousef made numerous calls to a house in Queens, NY. The house was occupied by the cousin of Nichols' Filipina wife. Just another coincidence, guys?Yep. Coincidence.

Why? Because I left my hometown at the age of 18. Went to college, did a stint in the Army, went back to college, went to grad school, then off to pursue my career. During this time I lived in several places for at least six months. They include,(in no particular order.)

NYC
Storrs, CT
Greensboro, NC
Charlotte, NC
Ft Campbell, KY
Ft Lewis, WA
Tallahassee, FL
Richmond, VA
Irvine, CA

In each of these places I ran into some one who knew my Mother or Father. In fact the only place outside of America where I lived for more than 6 months (Korea) My SGM severed with Dad in Nam. Unless my parents were secretly rich and managed to get all of these people in place to "keep an eye on me" it's just a coincidence. (Then again Dad was a Mason.:eye-poppi)



When you're done dealing with those additional coincidences, I'd like you to address an issue which is actually the theme of Rohrabacher's speech. Why does the Michael Chertoff-controlled Justice Department refuse to acknowldedge, much less investigate, these coincidences?

Why should they? My fiancee was in Dekalb the day of the shooting at NIU, should she be investigated?

Why won't the Chertoff-controlled Justice Dept. allow Rohrabacher to interview either the incarcerated Nichols or Yousef?

Again why should they?


What is DHS chairman and Israeli citizen Chertoff trying to hide?

Aaaaand it's back to the Jews.:rolleyes:

[MIKILLINI]

The other thread I started on this subject got derailed by some who wanted to discuss the OKC boming of the Murrah Federal Building. What I wanted to discuss was some of the revelations made by California Representative Dana Rohrabacher in an extraordinary speech (http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2008/rohr022608.html) on the House floor a few weeks ago. In the speech, Rohrabacher pointed out some amazing coincidences, most notably that convicted OKC bomber Terry Nichols and convicted WTC93 bomber Ramsey Yousef were both known to have been in Cebu City, Philippines at the same time before going on to use similar bombs to blow up American targets.

Rohrabacher went on to lament that the Justice Department refuses to have any interest in this alleged coincidence, and that it also refuses to allow him to interview either of the bombers who are now incarcerated in federal prisons.

I find these allegations, made by someone with the stature of Rohrabacher, to be far more devastating to the "debunker" mindset than everything said by Rosie O'Donnell, Charlie Sheen and Marion Cotillard combined and multiplied by ten.

What do you think? Is the Cebu City connection just a coincidence, or something more? Please participate in this poll and leave a comment explaining your vote.

Dana Rohrabacher isn't the brightest crayon in the box and it's amazing he even gets re-elected.
He's another of those "sheeple" like you A-train, who are easily fooled by "conspiracy uncertainty syndrome" brought on by the lack of further researching, common sense and skepticism.
It's coincidence and nothing more.

[twinstead]

Aaaaand it's back to the Jews.:rolleyes:

It's like the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, only with Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Degrees_of_Kevin_Bacon

[Galileo]

This website of "critical thinkers" really gives me a good kick.

I can just imagine the people here defending a rapist who got busted when they matched his DNA to the crime scene:

"That's a coincidence!"; he said. "What evidence do you have?"

[leftysergeant]

It just dawned on me that A-Train has just exonerated the Jewws of all guilt in 9/11 or OKC.

[twinstead]

This website of "critical thinkers" really gives me a good kick.

I can just imagine the people here defending a rapist who got busted when they matched his DNA to the crime scene:

"That's a coincidence!"; he said. "What evidence do you have?"

???

That's not a coincidence, that's solid evidence. Do you think the the suspicions by A-Tran have any solid evidence to back them up--akin to DNA evidence? No. To actually MATCH the situation more properly, your little analogy would be that the alleged rapist and victim lived in the same city, therefore he is guilty. Or that he is guilty because the both victim and alleged rapist have DNA. No lab tests to prove a match need be done--they both have DNA.

GUILTY!!

[Redtail]

This website of "critical thinkers" really gives me a good kick.

I can just imagine the people here defending a rapist who got busted when they matched his DNA to the crime scene:

"That's a coincidence!"; he said. "What evidence do you have?"

Holy bad analogy Batman!

See, the DNA being found at the scene WOULD be evidence.

The fact that a guy was in the same city in which the rape occurred would not be.

[Galileo]

Holy bad analogy Batman!

See, the DNA being found at the scene WOULD be evidence.



I agree. But I am presenting the opinions of the JREFers, not my own.

The DNA is not evidence, unless you can prove the alleged suspect does not have an identical twin.

If you have no evidence of that, the DNA would prejudice the jury.

[Galileo]

The fact that a guy was in the same city in which the rape occurred would not be.



It would, if the suspect had an alibi.

[Galileo]

The problem is, you've provided zero evidence of this. Saying those two met does not mean they are controlled by the same organization. There is no logical connection between "meeting" and having the same bosses.



That's where waterboarding comes in. You simply bring in the suspects and bosses for questioning and get them to admit there was a conspiracy.

Those confessions can be admitted as evidence.

[twinstead]

That's where waterboarding comes in. You simply bring in the suspects and bosses for questioning and get them to admit there was a conspiracy.

Those confessions can be admitted as evidence.

Or, how about you rightly assume they are simple coincidences unless some other piece of compelling evidence surfaces that changes things, and get on with life?

[applecorped]

Don't ask to much of him. He isn't ready to make the leap into reality yet.

[MIKILLINI]

Don't ask to much of him. He isn't ready to make the leap into reality yet.

Reality, what a concept.:D

[MIKILLINI]

That's where waterboarding comes in. You simply bring in the suspects and bosses for questioning and get them to admit there was a conspiracy.

Those confessions can be admitted as evidence.

Twoofers don't need to be waterboarded to admit there was a conspiracy.

[twinstead]

Twoofers don't need to be waterboarded to admit there was a conspiracy.

Sure, but hell--I say we waterboard them anyway. ;)

[jberryhill]

Cebu City is the second largest city in the Philippines.

Nichols wife was from Cebu City. She was, I believe, his second Filipina wife. Filipinas are probably tops in the mail-order bride business.

It doesn't seem unusual for him to have been there. We used to have an enormous presence in the Philippines.

The Philippines also has an Islamic insurgency, so it doesn't seem unusual for any number of Islamic radicals to have been there either.

[applecorped]

stop being logical, it hurts.

[Foolmewunz]

Well, I could honestly answer that I always meet people I know when I'm in Cebu City. I go there for business and we have an office there.

Where's the option that says, "Rohrbacher is just reading material until I see some evidence". I've heard about these trips, but no one's actually showed a record (passport, immigration, etc...) showing they were actually both there at the same time. The Congressman's favorite source cites a particular visit from November to January, just before the OKC attack, but I have yet to see it documented.

And the new wrinkle? The phone records he says he's seen? As I mentioned in the other thread, why hasn't he produced these. He is very willing to send letters to DoJ, but those letters only contain accusations. Why not produce this very basic evidence?

I can't find the articles but didn't Rohrbacher also claim that when Nichols finally admitted his involvement, he implicated an Arab connection? (Which Nichols and his attorney denied... He said there was at least one other involved, but he refused to name him. Even that is seen as a possible "just let me out and I'll talk" ploy.)

In short, while coincidences abound in this world, the phone calls to Queens, though, might be stretching coincidences a bit far,....
IF they prove to be real and not just fictions,
IF it proves that they really were in Cebu City on the same dates,
IF there is really a connection between the phone number and Youssef or someone proven to be a Youssef associate

However, if all those ifs are filled in, what does it ultimately prove? That two notably anti-US establishment hate mongers might have gotten together over a bit of babinka and discussed tradecraft? But not enough of a discussion to get them to both use the same type of bomb, evidently. I guess that's the brilliance of the Mossad at work.

[twinstead]

I guess that's the brilliance of the Mossad at work.

Hey, them jooooz is crafty!

[ElMondoHummus]

That's where waterboarding comes in. You simply bring in the suspects and bosses for questioning and get them to admit there was a conspiracy.

Those confessions can be admitted as evidence.

WTF? :confused:

I'm pointing out that A-Train is providing evidence that Yousef and Nichols met in Cebu City, and that he's providing no proof that they're controlled by Mossad, which is the conclusion he's drawing in another thread.

What are you suggesting, that A-Train go waterboard Nichols? Because it's him that is not providing evidence. He's the one drawing conclusions from the fact they were both in Cebu City together.

[funk de fino]

Fair enough. But do you have anything to say about the other related coincidences detailed in Rohrabacher's speech?

The status of Samir Khahil, an unindicted coconspirator in the WTC93 bombing. It is also the name of an Iraqi man in Oklahoma City at the time of the Murrah bombing, who employed a man fitting the description of "John Doe II," who later was employed at Boston Logan airport. Just another coincidence, guys?
The cell phone records of Yousef, obtained by Rohrabacher. Yousef made numerous calls to a house in Queens, NY. The house was occupied by the cousin of Nichols' Filipina wife. Just another coincidence, guys?When you're done dealing with those additional coincidences, I'd like you to address an issue which is actually the theme of Rohrabacher's speech. Why does the Michael Chertoff-controlled Justice Department refuse to acknowldedge, much less investigate, these coincidences? Why won't the Chertoff-controlled Justice Dept. allow Rohrabacher to interview either the incarcerated Nichols or Yousef?

What is DHS chairman and Israeli citizen Chertoff trying to hide?

Maybe if you stopped lying so much people may take your posts seriously.......for about a minute probably.

Chertoff is not an Israeli citizen

[Redtail]

It would, if the suspect had an alibi.


So if a suspect left his DNA at the scene but has an alibi then any man who was in the city should be investigated?

[Redtail]

I agree. But I am presenting the opinions of the JREFers, not my own.

The DNA is not evidence, unless you can prove the alleged suspect does not have an identical twin.

If you have no evidence of that, the DNA would prejudice the jury.

...What?

Never mind, you've watched waaaay to much CSI/ Law and Order. The DNA is evidence, the fact that one was in the city is not.

[Redtail]

...snip...
Why won't the Chertoff-controlled Justice Dept. allow Rohrabacher to interview either the incarcerated Nichols or Yousef?

What is DHS chairman and Israeli citizen Chertoff trying to hide?

It was brought to my attention that the head of the Dept. of Justice is Attorney General Michael Mukasey. :jaw-dropp But then he's an Orthodox Jew!:jaw-dropp

[Twilightzone theme]Do-do do do...[/twilightzone theme]

Wait...
[twilightzone theme] Jew-jew-jew-jew, jew-jew-jew-jew...[/twilightzone theme]

[ElMondoHummus]

You know, I still haven't heard an answer to this. Recall this statement:

Far more likely that both Yousef and Nichols were patsies being handled by a sophisticated network, most likely Mossad, operating out of the Philippines.

If Yousef and Nichols really did meet in Cebu City, how does that even implicate Mossad? Forget proof, just let me know how Mossad even enters the picture? What, an anti-American radical Islamicist and an anti-American White supremacist meet in some "foreign" city, Ohmigod that must mean Mossad's involved?

Again, beyond shoehorning, what piece of the story of those two meeting even remotely opens the door to Mossad being involved?

[Minadin]

I agree. But I am presenting the opinions of the JREFers, not my own.

The DNA is not evidence, unless you can prove the alleged suspect does not have an identical twin.

If you have no evidence of that, the DNA would prejudice the jury.

It turns out (http://ec.europa.eu/research/headlines/news/article_08_03_06_en.html) that identical twins don't necessarily have identical DNA, anyway.

[ElMondoHummus]

If Yousef and Nichols really did meet in Cebu City, how does that even implicate Mossad? Forget proof, just let me know how Mossad even enters the picture? What, an anti-American radical Islamicist and an anti-American White supremacist meet in some "foreign" city, Ohmigod that must mean Mossad's involved?

Again, beyond shoehorning, what piece of the story of those two meeting even remotely opens the door to Mossad being involved?


Call me a broken record, but I'm still dyin' for an explanation. :mad:

[Brainache]

Call me a broken record, but I'm still dyin' for an explanation. :mad:

I want to know why he doesn't think it was the Chinese Baptists. They're way more evil than the Jews.

[MIKILLINI]

Call me a broken record, but I'm still dyin' for an explanation. :mad:

Ok, you're a broken record..;) But that's probably the kind of explanation you'll get from A-train concerning how exactly the Mossad fits into his scenario:

Broken.:rolleyes:

[ElMondoHummus]

Well, it's a pebble in my shoe. Ignoring the stupid conspiracy stuff, someone who's probably never even looked at the Philippines on a map is trying to call the 3rd largest city with the second most important airport, arguably the most important seaport, and a population that rivals San Diego, San Francisco, or Seattle a "small town" and a "Philippine hicktown". That just shows how obviously neglected the concept of basic frikkin' research is.

And someone who goes from two guys in the same city to "probably controlled by Mossad" with absolutely zero evidence, arguments, pictures, or links just makes me face-palm. I swear, the Catholic Church doesn't make that big of an unsupported leap when talking about God! At least most priests I know will try to provide some supporting argument, like "love" or the beauty of a sunset, or a baby being born, blah blah blah... but do we see anything like that in this argument? Not even a guy in a trenchcoat and yarmulke having a kosher dog for his merienda while talking to the two patsies?

Can't call the argument "broken"... it couldn't have been broken if it was never there to begin with!

[PhantomWolf]

It might be worth pointing out that Ramzi Ahmed Yousef had no connections to Al Qaeda at the time of the 1993 bombings anyway. Although he had trained at an Afghanistan camp that would later come under Bin Laden's control, at the time of his training, 91-92, Bin Laden was in Southern Yeman and Saudi Arabia with his AQ group and didn't return to Afghanistan until 1995, two years after the WTC bombing. Yousef did receive funding from KSM, who would later join up with OBL and plot the WTC Attacks, but at the time (1993) he was not part of AQ either. Thus to suggest that Nichols was there to receive AQ training because Yousef was there is patently dumb (more so since AQ didn't and never has had a branch in the Phillipines.)

The more likely reason is that one (Nichols) had family connections there (his wife was a fillipino) and that the other (Yousef) had "business" contacts there (he trained with them in Afghanistan and would later flee there after an unsuccessful attempt on then Pakistani Prime Minister, Benazir Bhutto, and conspire with KSM to carry out other attacks including assassinating the Pope, President Clinton, and attempting to blow up planes with the Bojinka Plot.)

[gumboot]

The more likely reason is that one (Nichols) had family connections there (his wife was a fillipino) and that the other (Yousef) had "business" contacts there (he trained with them in Afghanistan and would later flee there after an unsuccessful attempt on then Pakistani Prime Minister, Benazir Bhutto, and conspire with KSM to carry out other attacks including assassinating the Pope, President Clinton, and attempting to blow up planes with the Bojinka Plot.)


It's a bit more specific than than. Nichols' wife was from Cebu itself, and Yousef conducted his "test bombing" by planting his bomb on a flight from Manila to Cebu. So both people had perfectly good reasons to have been in Cebu, independent of each other. I also expect to see a specific date before I'll accept that they were in the same city at the same time.

[mortimer]

Unless A-Train can show a YouTube video of these two together in Cebu City, it didn't happen.