Surprise! Riots in the Muslim World

[kosai]

With the resurgence of cartoon hating and outrage over the 10 minute film "Submission" in the muslim world I was searching for some articles about this tendancy to riot in the mid-east over world media. I found this article which I thought was very well written:

http://righttruth.typepad.com/right_truth/2006/09/raymond_s_kraft.html

Does anyone feel this is too harsh or dead on?

I had never thought to apply the Narcissistic Personality Disorder to the followers of a particular faith but his argument is rather compelling.

[Ateius]

Although the name of the site give me pause ("Right Truth?") the writer makes a very good case. Militant Islam is very much like a narcissistic psychopath. The Muslims who take to the streets over every "outrage", I'd liken more to a small child throwing a tantrum.

I need to buy a private island and post a "No Religions Allowed" sign on the beaches. :boxedin:

[kosai]

Although the name of the site give me pause ("Right Truth?") the writer makes a very good case. Militant Islam is very much like a narcissistic psychopath. The Muslims who take to the streets over every "outrage", I'd liken more to a small child throwing a tantrum.

I need to buy a private island and post a "No Religions Allowed" sign on the beaches. :boxedin:

Yeah I took pause at the site name as I'm a democrat but the article was no less true for me. The author did liken it to a child's tantrum as well...


But at the slightest suggestion that they, or Islam, or the Prophet, are any less perfect than they claim to be, they erupt in fury and violence, the behavior of a culture fixated at the emotional level of a narcissistic four-year-old who throws a screaming tantrum every time he does not get precisely what his childish little heart desires.

[bignickel]

I'd post my opinion, but I'm too afeared.

[Kopji]

With this thought in mind I turned to the Diagnostic Statistical Manual-IV (DSM-IV) of the American Psychiatric Association, to the section on Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And now I am going to offend Islam, again. For the tantrums of Islam that we see in every day's news match precisely all eight of the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder...

Hateful and insulting to mentally ill people.
Was there a shortage of tools to use for justifying the hatred?

[JoeEllison]

Ahh... more bigotry and stupidity against Muslims. Wonderful. The bigotry is to be expected, but the stupidity is a sign of some serious intellectual laziness.

[kosai]

Ahh... more bigotry and stupidity against Muslims. Wonderful. The bigotry is to be expected, but the stupidity is a sign of some serious intellectual laziness.

Specific much?

[Ateius]

Ahh... more bigotry and stupidity against Muslims. Wonderful. The bigotry is to be expected, but the stupidity is a sign of some serious intellectual laziness.

No, not all Muslims. Just the ones that murder people, and riot at the slightest provocation (or lack thereof).

I have similar low opinions for people of other groups who resort to the same methods.

[Mycroft]

Ahh... more bigotry and stupidity against Muslims. Wonderful. The bigotry is to be expected, but the stupidity is a sign of some serious intellectual laziness.

People who bash (rightfully so) the kooky idiocies of fundamentalist Christianity are not accused of bigotry.

Why is that, do you think?

[geni]

I wasn't aware that rioting in france was a uniquely islamic activity. Most of the time muslims do not riot. We in the west insult their religion every day and the lack of constant rioting on the streets is quite noticable. What has happened is that the media have realised that "muslims riot over whatever" is a good story. When serbia had that civil dissorder over the kosovo independance thing it wasn't "christians riot".


Islam has produced no Einsteins,

Well no but there could only be one einstein you can't produce the theory of relitivity more than once. There have been quite a number of islamic contributions to maths and science over the centries. Ibn al-Haytham for example.


no Da Vincis,


Abbas Ibn Firnas, Al-Farabi. Islam has had it's polymaths.


no Beethovens,


Beethoven required a particular technology and culture set that didn't exist outside europe.


no Churchills


I wasn't aware that stubon nationalists with good oratory skills were in short supply.


or Franklin D. Roosevelts,


Yes I supose it is somewhat unlikely that many islamic rulers would have been prepared to accept half of euorope falling under communism.


Islam today exports oil, and terror.


Turkey mostly exports manufactored goods.


Yet Islam wallows in the self-inflicted delusion that it is the center of the world and the quintessence of civilization.

So do the US europe and china. Fairly normal.



Islam, unique among the world's religions, is the only religion which confers its highest accolade of "Specialness" upon those who murder others and themselves,

Crusade martyrdom. Christian terms. Miloš Obilić is a christian hero.

If Islam were in truth a religion of peace, it would have no enemies, and it would need no weapons.


So none of the islamic world was occupied by britian and france simply because they wanted to?

[kosai]

No, not all Muslims. Just the ones that murder people, and riot at the slightest provocation (or lack thereof).

I have similar low opinions for people of other groups who resort to the same methods.

People who bash (rightfully so) the kooky idiocies of fundamentalist Christianity are not accused of bigotry.

Why is that, do you think?

Precisely and well said by both of you. Joe uses the signature:

"I would like to meet as many Americans as possible, and have them meet me, just so they can see what an Iraqi looks like before they kill him."-- Fadhil Al-Kazily, Iraqi-American peace activist

However if we were to use an inverse of it he would call it bigoted, I've brought this up in the past but never got an answer to my question. Joe, would you agree with the inverse of your signature?

"I would like to meet as many Muslims as possible, and have them meet me, just so they can see what an American looks like before they kill him."

[Pardalis]

Abbas Ibn Firnas, Al-Farabi. Islam has had it's polymaths.

Not to mention architecture.

[Kopji]

http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/30/4/1005.pdf

These findings suggest that form may be more important diagnostically than content:
it is not what you believe but how you believe it...

Taken together, these findings imply that the divisions between normal and delusional thinking, or between delusions and other types of pathological thinking, may be rather blurred. Furthermore, they support our previous claims (Peters et al. 1999a, 19996) that the analysis of the dimensions of distress, preoccupation, and conviction may be more revealing than the content of belief alone for placing an individual on the continuum from health to psychopathology.

The article might be of general interest. Almost everyone they tested was 'delusional' to some extent. It asks the question - Does the environment people are placed in make the difference, rather than merely the belief?

We have seen that if we teach people to hate, they can become quite dangerous.

The use of the DSM-IV to "diagnose" entire segments of society is probably borderline racist and certainly a misuse of the document author's intent. The use in this instance is similar to using the Bible to argue against someone.

[Ateius]

I wasn't aware that rioting in france was a uniquely islamic activity.
Oh, hardly. I seem to recall a year or two ago there were large numbers of student workers rioting for days on end, setting cars on fire, etc. etc. I find their actions deplorable as well.

[gtc]

When serbia had that civil dissorder over the kosovo independance thing it wasn't "christians riot".

Those were nationalist riots, so calling them 'christian riots' is wrong. The riots over the cartoons are religious riots, so referring to the religion of the rioters is relevant (and absolutely necessary if you want to understand why they rioted).

The correct analogy would be to point out that the idea that all Muslims are rioters based on the cartoon riots is as silly as suggesting that all Serbs are rioters based on the riots over Kosova.

[fuelair]

Ahh... more bigotry and stupidity against Muslims. Wonderful. The bigotry is to be expected, but the stupidity is a sign of some serious intellectual laziness.
Certainly not bigotry - the site and the author might be bigoted (I suspect so, but do not know so). But the analysis - unless he is misquoting the APA - rather much is dead on - and most of those post points have been made by others in the past of variant overall opinion and group. As said, feel free to point out functional errors in the post/article.



As for the point on "all Muslims don't" of course they don't and that is a given. But, they do not do nearly enough to stop the ones who do and who have, because of that, become our problem. When you turn your problem over to me, do not expect to be able to tell me how you want it solved. You had your chance.

[BPSCG]

Well no but there could only be one einstein you can't produce the theory of relitivity more than once. True, but how many Muslims have made any significant contributions in the area? How many Muslims have won Nobel prizes in the hard sciences?

There have been quite a number of islamic contributions to maths and science over the centries. Ibn al-Haytham for example.Died in 1039.

Abbas Ibn FirnasDied 887
Al-FarabiDied 951
Islam has had it's polymaths.Where have they been hiding for the last thousand years?

Beethoven required a particular technology and culture set that didn't exist outside europe.Yeah, but he also had a disadvantage that most Muslims don't - he was almost stone deaf.

(regarding Churchill) I wasn't aware that stubon nationalists with good oratory skills were in short supply.Interesting how you denigrate the achievement of the man who led the successful fight against the Nazis. Any Muslim leaders who can boast similar achievements? Where are the Muslim Churchills, Roosevelts, Lincolns?

Where are the Muslim Jonas Salks? Where are the Muslims Bill Gateses? In short, where are the great Muslims who people will be able to point to a hundred years from now, and say, "These men made the world a better place a century ago, and we are still reaping the rewards of their genius"?

I'm rather troubled by the article in the OP; it suggests that Islam is a form of mental illness, or that, at least, millions of adherents behave like mentally ill people. That bothers me for reasons I can't quite articulate yet.

But the fact remains: For at least the last thousand years, Islam has had a terrible record at turning out people who improve the worldwide human condition.

[geni]

Oh, hardly. I seem to recall a year or two ago there were large numbers of student workers rioting for days on end, setting cars on fire, etc. etc. I find their actions deplorable as well.

There are worse aspects of french culture

[geni]

True, but how many Muslims have made any significant contributions in the area? How many Muslims have won Nobel prizes in the hard sciences?

Very narrow timeframe you are looking at. Ahmed H. Zewail would fit your criteria


Died in 1039.
Died 887
Died 951
Where have they been hiding for the last thousand years?


Ibn al-Nafis, Ibn Khaldun but then they got wacked by the Mongols and by the time they got over that europe was starting to kick into high gear and polulation densities started to tell.


Yeah, but he also had a disadvantage that most Muslims don't - he was almost stone deaf.


Never been established that that counts as a dissadvantage. You can't write symphonies if no one has gotten around to creating the orchestra and then continueing to pay for it.

Buhurizade Itri and Hacı Arif Bey might be closest.


Interesting how you denigrate the achievement of the man who led the successful fight against the Nazis.

Stalin??? I understand that history does have a fairly negative view of the guy.


Any Muslim leaders who can boast similar achievements? Where are the Muslim Churchills,

Quite a few islamic leaders have worked to defend their contries against invaders.


Roosevelts,


What properties are you giveing him?


Lincolns?


Which element? Starting a civil war or ending slavery in the US?


Where are the Muslim Jonas Salks?


Turkey 18th century. Altough that could have been aquired from india hard to say.


Where are the Muslims Bill Gateses?


Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden. Pitty about the kid although apprently the other 54 have been less problematical.


In short, where are the great Muslims who people will be able to point to a hundred years from now, and say, "These men made the world a better place a century ago, and we are still reaping the rewards of their genius"?

A century is a very short time frame. You might want to consider that most islamic countires havn't even existed for a century yet.



But the fact remains: For at least the last thousand years, Islam has had a terrible record at turning out people who improve the worldwide human condition.

1000 years ago not doing to badly. suffered from the mongols and getting removed from spain about the same time. Rebuilt to an extent but then europe overtook china in terms of technical development kept accelerating in a way the relitavly rescource poor islamic world couldn't match. Result was that it was able to stop islam from any further territorial advances. Battle of Vienna was the last throw of the dice by that point europe had reached the new world giving it acess to even more rescourses leaveing the ottemen with no way to compete. Result was that europe was able to focus the resouces of most of the world into it's science and technology while the islamic world was stuck on the defenive trying to keep the europeans out. Under such a situation isolation and stagnation is hardly supriseing.

[dudalb]

Ahh... more bigotry and stupidity against Muslims. Wonderful. The bigotry is to be expected, but the stupidity is a sign of some serious intellectual laziness.

I guess Islamic extremism does not exist in Joe Ellison's world.
Muslims can do nothing that Joe will not defend them for doing and/or attack those condeming them.
Ever get tired of just mouthing whatever the current cliche on the Militant left is, Joe?

[BPSCG]

Very narrow timeframe you are looking at. Ahmed H. Zewail would fit your criteriaThat's it? That's the whole list of Muslim hard science Nobel laureates? Jeeze, the U.S. does better than that in a bad year.

Ibn al-Nafis, Ibn Khaldun but then they got wacked by the Mongols and by the time they got over that europe was starting to kick into high gear and polulation densities started to tell.



Never been established that that counts as a dissadvantage. You can't write symphonies if no one has gotten around to creating the orchestra and then continueing to pay for it.

Buhurizade Itri and Hacı Arif Bey might be closest.


(...snip...)

A century is a very short time frame. You might want to consider that most islamic countires havn't even existed for a century yet.

(...snip...)

1000 years ago not doing to badly. suffered from the mongols and getting removed from spain about the same time. Rebuilt to an extent but then europe overtook china in terms of technical development kept accelerating in a way the relitavly rescource poor islamic world couldn't match. Result was that it was able to stop islam from any further territorial advances. Battle of Vienna was the last throw of the dice by that point europe had reached the new world giving it acess to even more rescourses leaveing the ottemen with no way to compete. Result was that europe was able to focus the resouces of most of the world into it's science and technology while the islamic world was stuck on the defenive trying to keep the europeans out. Under such a situation isolation and stagnation is hardly supriseing.Yeah, every failure has lots of excuses. That's the one thing failures excel in - excuses. There's no Muslim Einstein or Newton or Wright Brothers or Gates or Salk or Shakespeare or Beethoven or Edison or Leonardo because <fill in excuse>.

[kosai]

Yeah, every failure has lots of excuses. That's the one thing failures excel in - excuses. There's no Muslim Einstein or Newton or Wright Brothers or Gates or Salk or Shakespeare or Beethoven or Edison or Leonardo because <fill in excuse>.

Most common one I've heard from muslims:

__The_USA__

[Kaylee]

Very narrow timeframe you are looking at. Ahmed H. Zewail would fit your criteria

That's it? That's the whole list of Muslim hard science Nobel laureates? Jeeze, the U.S. does better than that in a bad year.



I don't think that Zewail fits the criteria. He completed his docterate in the USA and has been a citizen of the USA since the early 1980s. Source: Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_H._Zewail)

[geni]

That's it? That's the whole list of Muslim hard science Nobel laureates? Jeeze, the U.S. does better than that in a bad year.

Not entire. Abdus Salam

The US has acess to more rescources than the entire islamic world combiened.


Yeah, every failure has lots of excuses. That's the one thing failures excel in - excuses. There's no Muslim Einstein or Newton or Wright Brothers or Gates or Salk or Shakespeare or Beethoven or Edison or Leonardo because <fill in excuse>.

There is no american Columbus, Johannes Gutenberg, James Watt, Shakespeare or Beethoven.

No european invented writeing. No european invented broze or glass (pottery perhaps it's messy). The islamic states and a fair chunck of the planet are still on a trajectory driven by european imperialism.

[geni]

I don't think that Zewail fits the criteria. He completed his docterate in the USA and has been a citizen of the USA since the early 1980s. Source: Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_H._Zewail)

He's a muslim born and spent his early life (untill he obtained his degree) in egypt.

[geni]

Most common one I've heard from muslims:

__The_USA__

Doesn't make them right. USSR yes due to the impact in centeral asia. US? Well the US? Well it's ecomonic size has meant that resouces tend to have ended up in the US rather than elsewhere but I don't think that has been a decideing factor.

[geni]

Those were nationalist riots, so calling them 'christian riots' is wrong. The riots over the cartoons are religious riots, so referring to the religion of the rioters is relevant (and absolutely necessary if you want to understand why they rioted).

Head of the serbian orthodox church would beg to differ. And it is religious. Look at all the religious elements that appear in the Battle of Kosovo mythology.

[kosai]

Doesn't make them right. USSR yes due to the impact in centeral asia. US? Well the US? Well it's ecomonic size has meant that resouces tend to have ended up in the US rather than elsewhere but I don't think that has been a decideing factor.

I'm not saying I agree with them at all, I was saying Beeps' point about there always being an excuse relevant as they need to blame someone and it's always the U.S.

[mrbaracuda]

But the fact remains: For at least the last thousand years, Islam has had a terrible record at turning out people who improve the worldwide human condition.

If this map is correct,

http://aycu35.webshots.com/image/45674/2002151582247023406_rs.jpg
(from jihadwatch.org's Islam 101)

I think you might have your answer why their glorious culture withered away. In my opinion, it's because they could not usurp large areas and their culture anymore, like Persia or India, thus lacking new dhimmis with knowledge in the sciences at some point.

[BPSCG]

The US has acess to more rescources than the entire islamic world combiened. Well, that's subject to debate. The U.S. doesn't have access to Cuba. Of course, most of the Muslim world doesn't have access to Israel.

Speaking of Israel, why have there been more Jewish hard-science Nobel laureates in just the last five years than Muslim ones since 1900 (http://www.masada2000.org/nobel.html)?

There is no american Columbus, Who first set foot on the moon? Bulgarians?

Johannes Gutenberg, What, Thomas Edison is chopped liver?

James Watt, Robert Fulton?

Shakespeare or Beethoven.These are the two unchallenged titans of literature and music - you won't find their match anywhere. But American literature is certainly a rich field, and Americans pretty much invented the entire genre of music known as jazz. Ask anyone to name a Muslim musician or composer and they'll probably look blankly at you and say, "Paula Abdul?" (her parents are Jewish, actually.)

No european invented writeing. No european invented broze or glass (pottery perhaps it's messy). The islamic states and a fair chunck of the planet are still on a trajectory driven by european imperialism creativity.Fixed it for you. Islam smothers creativity. The Christian church screamed bloody murder when Darwin published his theory of evolution. But nobody ordered up a fatwa to have him killed. Imagine you're a Muslim Darwin and you have a scientific theory that conflicts with the Koran. Do you publish it, or do you keep your mouth shut and your head attached to your neck?

[mrbaracuda]

Islam smothers creativity. The Christian church screamed bloody murder when Darwin published his theory of evolution. But nobody ordered up a fatwa to have him killed. Imagine you're a Muslim Darwin and you have a scientific theory that conflicts with the Koran. Do you publish it, or do you keep your mouth shut and your head attached to your neck?

Yes, it looks like it is true. I got me this classic manual of Islamic sacred law book, called "Reliance of the Traveller", or 'Umdat al-Salik in Arabic. It's available on amazon.com for 30$. Link. (http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Traveller-Classic-Islamic-Al-Salik/dp/0915957728/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205171822&sr=8-1)

I hope I don't get this wrong but in there it also talks about innovations and labels them as generally evil or wrong; I'll see if I can quote some out of it when I find it. Now, what I read so far is that most or even all creative muslims who invented things or made achievements in hard sciences did it despite of Islam, not because of it and seem to have been rather moderate.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Wow, so much ethnocentric stupidity.

Here, let me have a go:

Where are all the Hindu Shakespeares, Jeffersons, Bachs, Einsteins?

Where are all the Black Shakespeares, Jeffersons, Bachs, Einsteins?

Where are all the Buddhist Shakespeares, Jeffersons, Bachs, Einsteins?

Where are all the Female Shakespeares, Jeffersons, Bachs, Einsteins?

Where are all the Asian Shakespeares, Jeffersons, Bachs, Einsteins?

Where are all the Transgendered Shakespeares, Jeffersons, Bachs, Einsteins?

Do you think that maybe the reason we think so highly of these people is because they have been idolized in our culture?

And why should we lay the blame on Islam? Plenty of other societies (like the rest of the world) didn't reach the technological strength of Europe and America and plenty of other groups aren't represented in our mythological figures.

[ddt]

Speaking of Israel, why have there been more Jewish hard-science Nobel laureates in just the last five years than Muslim ones since 1900 (http://www.masada2000.org/nobel.html)
Great link. :rolleyes: Especially this in the Peace Prizes:
1994 - Yasser Arafat... A Joke!!!
while on the other hand the greatest living war criminal (http://www.amazon.com/Trial-Henry-Kissinger-Christopher-Hitchens/dp/1859843980)
1973 - Henry Kissinger
apparently is the paragon of virtue.

[Kaylee]

He's [ed. Zewail]a muslim born and spent his early life (untill he obtained his degree) in egypt.

Yes, but he wasn't able to complete his education within a country whose main cultural influence was Islam and later he did not choose to go back to a country whose main cultural influence was Islam either.

Some of the Muslim countries in the Mideast have a unique opportunity to reinvest their earnings from oil into research and development in technology and the hard sciences. One has to wonder why its not being used. If I'm wrong about this, pls feel free to educate me.

[BPSCG]

Great link. :rolleyes: Especially this in the Peace Prizes:

while on the other hand the greatest living war criminal (http://www.amazon.com/Trial-Henry-Kissinger-Christopher-Hitchens/dp/1859843980)

apparently is the paragon of virtue.Is the list incorrect in any way? Are there Muslims who have won Nobel Prizes who are not on it? Or Jews on the list who did not in fact win a Nobel Prize?

If not, then your post is utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[kallsop]

Who gives a cr*p what Muslims were doing 1000 years ago. What are they doing TODAY?

No matter which way you slice it, they harbor a whole lot of cretinous yobs today. That wouldn't be so bad if they didn't want to inflict, by lethal force, their religious and sexist bigotry onto others. It's somewhat pointless to expect progress until such time as the leadership of nations such as Saudi Arabia reject this garbage. However, they are at best indifferent and arguably complicit.

Unfortunately there isn't an alternative yet to oil so we get to put up with these clowns for a while more. If we perfect alternative energy, such as fusion, I'll be dancing in the streets and that part of the world can go back to a camel based economy.

[ddt]

Shakespeare and Beethoven
These are the two unchallenged titans of literature and music - you won't find their match anywhere.
I beg to differ.

Shakespeare was very restricted in the type of literature he wrote: only plays and sonnets. He didn't write novels, like Goethe or Schiller. He didn't write (other) poems, like Schiller or Heine. Above all, he didn't write in my language, like Multatuli.

Likewise with Beethoven. He didn't write cantatas, like Bach. He didn't write oratorios, like Bach or Händel. He wrote only one opera, inferior to Mozart or Wagner. His Lieder are no match to Schubert's.

And then I'm only comparing to the tiny circle of Western art I'm familiar with.

Not to belittle the greatness of these artists, but holding them above all others as a class apart is not right.

[WildCat]

It's somewhat pointless to expect progress until such time as the leadership of nations such as Saudi Arabia reject this garbage. However, they are at best indifferent and arguably complicit.
It's amusing when people claim that REAL Muslims aren't intolerant sexist homophobic bigots, and that those that are represent a small minority, when in fact that kind of stuff is not only mainstream in the Muslim world but institutionalized in many of their governments. No one wants to admit that maybe, just maybe, there really is a problem with Islam in general.

[Sunni Man]

Some of the Muslim countries in the Mideast have a unique opportunity to reinvest their earnings from oil into research and development in technology and the hard sciences. One has to wonder why its not being used. If I'm wrong about this, pls feel free to educate me.

Education City
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Education City is an initiative of Qatar Foundation for Education, Science and Community Development. Located on the outskirts of Doha, the capital of Qatar, Education City covers 14 square kilometers and houses educational facilities from school age to research level and branch campuses of some of the world's leading universities. Education City aims to be the center of educational excellence in the region, instructing students in fields of critical importance to the GCC region. It is also conceived of as a forum, where universities share research and facilities, not only with each other but also by forging relationships with businesses and institutions in public and private sectors.


Five US universities have branch campuses at Education City. They are:

Virginia Commonwealth University School of the Arts in Qatar (VCUQ). Since 1998, VCUQ has offered students the opportunity to earn a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree in communication design, fashion design or interior design through a four-year curriculum.
Weill Cornell Medical College in Qatar (WCMC-Q). The Medical College was established by Cornell University in 2001 and offers a two-year Pre-medical Program followed by the four-year Medical Program leading to a Doctor of Medicine degree.
Texas A&M University at Qatar (TAMUQ). TAMUQ was established in 2003 and offers undergraduate degrees in chemical, electrical, mechanical and petroleum engineering. In 2007, TAMUQ added masters programs in engineering and science.
Carnegie Mellon University in Qatar (CMU-Q). CMU-Q has since 2004 offered undergraduate degrees in business, computer science programs, and as of 2007 an undergraduate degree in information systems.
Georgetown University School of Foreign Service in Qatar (SFS-Qatar). SFS-Qatar has, since 2005, offered a four-year program leading to a bachelor's degree in foreign service[1].
Northwestern University recently announced plans to open Schools of Journalism and Communication there in Fall, 2008.[2]

Other educational centers located at Education City include:

Academic Bridge Program - Established in 2001, this center offers a university-preparatory program and aims to equip specially selected, top-caliber secondary school graduates for admission to degree programs of both Qatar Foundation's Education City campuses and other world-class universities.
The Learning Center - This is a school for students who have average or above average potential but have experienced academic problems; it assists students in developing compensatory skills for their individual learning differences.
Qatar Academy - Comprising a Primary and Senior School this offers an international education for boys and girls from preschool to university entrance. Qatar Academy is fully accredited by the U.S.-based New England Association of Schools and Colleges and the Europe-based Council of International Schools.
There are also centers based at Education City which are focused on science and research. These include:

RAND-Qatar Policy Institute (RQPI). This is a partnership between the RAND Corporation and Qatar Foundation. RQPI analyzes complex policy problems and helps implement enduring solutions for clients across the Middle East, North Africa and South Asia.
Qatar Science & Technology Park (QSTP). Qatar Foundation is investing $300 million in building a state-of-the-art facility at Education City, comprising 45,000 square meters of office and laboratory space. QSTP aims to fuel Qatar’s knowledge economy by encouraging companies from around the world to develop and commercialize their technology in Qatar, and by helping entrepreneurs to launch start-up technology businesses.
Qatar National Research Fund (QNRF). QNRF aims to support research that is in the national interest. It was established to provide opportunities for researchers at all levels, from students to professionals, in the private, public, and academic sectors. The first of its funding programs, the Undergraduate Research Experience Program, was launched in 2006.
Qatar Foundation has also forayed into broadcasting. Two other Qatar Foundation initiatives based at Education City are Doha Debates and Al Jazeera Children's Channel. Doha Debates is a public forum for dialogue modeled on the Oxford Union debates and broadcast on the BBC. Al Jazeera Children's Channel (JCC) is a pan-Arab youth television channel which aims to strike a balance between education and entertainment.

Qatar Foundation has also formed partnerships that are located at Education City. For Al Shaqab stud, which came under the umbrella of Qatar Foundation in 2004, Qatar Foundation provides management and support services. Fitch studio, an extension of the Fitch London studio, has been established in order to develop the Fitch presence in the Gulf and Middle East region. In addition, the presence of a brand like Fitch serves to provide employment opportunities and to offer an international best practice for the emerging design sector in the region.

Future Education City projects planned by Qatar Foundation include Sidra Medical and Research Center. Scheduled to open in late 2010, Sidra will offer clinical care, medical training and biomedical research. Sidra will be the primary teaching venue for Weill Cornell Medical College in Qatar, and they will also be involved in the research. Working with Sidra and Weill Cornell Medical College in Qatar will be Hamad Medical Corporation, the major public health care provider in Doha.

[BPSCG]

I beg to differ.

Shakespeare was very restricted in the type of literature he wrote: only plays and sonnets. He didn't write novels, like Goethe or Schiller. The novel as a literary form didn't even exist in Shakespeare's day. The first novel (at least the first one written in English) was Robinson Crusoe, published in 1719.

He didn't write (other) poems, like Schiller or Heine. Above all, he didn't write in my language, like Multatuli.In any case, Shakespeare's position isn't because of the type of works he wrote but for his command of the language and his insight into the human psyche; it has been argued that Shakespeare was the first modern writer, in that he was the first one to examine the complex workings of the minds of his characters (read Iago's Act II soliloquy (http://www.web-books.com/classics/shakespeare/Othello/Othello2_4.htm) in Othello as an example).

Likewise with Beethoven. He didn't write cantatas, like Bach. He didn't write oratorios, like Bach or Händel. He wrote only one opera, inferior to Mozart or Wagner. His Lieder are no match to Schubert's.And Haydn wrote 104 symphonies to Beethoven's 9. That's not the point. The point is that Beethoven's revolutionary influence on western music was greater than anyone else's; his third symphony - the Eroica - is arguably the most important piece of music ever written, because it broke entirely new territory in the realm of musical expression (the BBC did a wonderful dramatization of the first performance (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Gardiner-Orchestre-Revolutionnaire-Romantique/dp/B000936H7S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1205193391&sr=1-1) a few years ago; it's available on DVD - highly recommended). Fully half the music you hear in a concert hall today is there because Beethoven broke the ground for it with the Eroica. Yes, Fidelio doesn't rank among the great operas, but you might as well say that Babe Ruth wasn't the greatest baseball player who ever lived because Ty Cobb had a higher lifetime batting average and Lou Brock stole more bases and Hank Aaron hit more home runs.

[ddt]

Great link. Especially this in the Peace Prizes:
Arafat - a joke!
while on the other hand the greatest living war criminal
Kissinger
apparently is the paragon of virtue.
Is the list incorrect in any way? Are there Muslims who have won Nobel Prizes who are not on it? Or Jews on the list who did not in fact win a Nobel Prize?

If not, then your post is utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

At first, this was just a derail on the childish stab at Arafat on that site. In fact, most persons who received the Nobel Peace Prize have considerable amounts of blood on their hands.

But there is something other wrong with that list, when we're discussing religion. It compares religious muslims with ethnic Jews. That's comparing apples with oranges. Now skim the list to actual religious Jews, and you'll see that their kind of superstition does not help to get a prominent place in history books either.

Spinoza, Einstein, Marx, Lev Bronstein (a.k.a. Trotzky), Mendelssohn, Heine, to name a few were Jews but not in a religious sense.

[fuelair]

I beg to differ.

Shakespeare was very restricted in the type of literature he wrote: only plays and sonnets. He didn't write novels, like Goethe or Schiller. He didn't write (other) poems, like Schiller or Heine. Above all, he didn't write in my language, like Multatuli.

Likewise with Beethoven. He didn't write cantatas, like Bach. He didn't write oratorios, like Bach or Händel. He wrote only one opera, inferior to Mozart or Wagner. His Lieder are no match to Schubert's.

And then I'm only comparing to the tiny circle of Western art I'm familiar with.

Not to belittle the greatness of these artists, but holding them above all others as a class apart is not right.
Just as a minor point (but I am glad to hear we are dealing with a new person who is degreed in World Lit!! Welcome in!!:) you were probably too busy in the Deutsche section and just forgot that no one was writing novels in Shakespeare' s time - they showed up a century or two later (a Mr. H. Fielding being generally credited with that development*). So, in all fairness, Mr. S really can't be taken to task on that point. In addition, the number of forms is a quantity concern while the quality of the writing and it's ability to inspire great thought and great emotion is a different thing and apparently of more importance to other specialists in this field. Ah, the vagaries of Academia!:):)


* But, being willing to check, I find others are put forward for same with no exact decision - most are definitely post-Shakespeare though - and thus do not affect the point. For the curious: enter Novel first in the Fetch box on www.dogpile.com

[Kaylee]

ETA: Respons to Sunni Man's post #39 in this thread.

Well, that is certainly a start. I took a quick look at the sources for that Wiki article and with the exception of the medical school, I think most of the programs are for B.S. degrees and prep schools for B.S. programs.

Not much on the masters or doctorate level so I don't think you will be seeing any future Nobel prize winners matriculating from those schools for awhile.

Another point is that most of the leadership for those schools seems to be from America.

Taking an overview, much of the world's knowledge base from Greece and Rome was protected from destruction in the Middle East while Europe went through the Dark Ages.

The Ottoman Empire (Islamic) was a wealthy and powerful one for many centuries. Its logical to think that they would have had the means to produce many technological breakthroughs, but AFAIK they did not. For the most part they did not even choose to copy them (e.g., industrial revolution).

So I think it's still a legitimate question to ask -- is there something about the Islamic culture that prevents scientific breakthroughs from originating locally (within Islamic culture)?

Perhaps it's not a result of values that originate from the Islamic religion, but is a result of other cultural values that predate Islam, but still persists among people who coincidentally believe in Islam.

Some possible reasons could be that during the time of the Ottoman Empire acceptance of slavery probably prevented the desire to acquire the means to be able to manufacture and develop other machines. In the current times, the majority of schools in Muslim countries (despite the example of Education City) may prefer to focus exclusively on the Koran rather than on the Koran, the sciences and other bodies of knowledge. {shrug} Just some possibilities.

[kosai]

It's amusing when people claim that REAL Muslims aren't intolerant sexist homophobic bigots, and that those that are represent a small minority, when in fact that kind of stuff is not only mainstream in the Muslim world but institutionalized in many of their governments. No one wants to admit that maybe, just maybe, there really is a problem with Islam in general.

The fact of the matter is all the major Abrahamic religions are intolerant, promote homophobia, ridiculous chanting, fasting, praying, avoiding certain foods, and scientific ignorance in general. I think people have been taught in our modern P.C. world never to say you or your group is "better" than anyone else. As an American liberal I see this kind of strange thinking quite often among my peers. This respect for "cultural diversity" clouds vision in comparison of true accomplishment. I don't much care for the works of Shakespeare, I'm not much of a classical music nut either, these things are a question of taste so I don't think they should be used to judge greatness. True accomplishment to me are things like the Apollo Program, The creation of the internet, or placing rovers on Mars. These things are moving humanity forward. Defending crazy belief systems is best left for the woo believers.

I think you should rephrase your statement as:

No one wants to admit that maybe, just maybe, there really is a problem with RELIGION in general.

[geni]

Well, that's subject to debate. The U.S. doesn't have access to Cuba. Of course, most of the Muslim world doesn't have access to Israel.

Acess is fairly meaningless if you can't either pay for it or aquire it by force.


Speaking of Israel, why have there been more Jewish hard-science Nobel laureates in just the last five years than Muslim ones since 1900 (http://www.masada2000.org/nobel.html)? [/quote]

Interigration of jews into the right parts of US society.



Who first set foot on the moon? Bulgarians?


So far the US luna missions have had more in common with the Viking landings than columbus.


What, Thomas Edison is chopped liver?


Compared to the impact of comeing up with a relatively cheap way to mass produce books? yes. Of course Gutenberg was at least the 3rd person to invent a form of movable type.


Robert Fulton?


Not a very good analogue


Ask anyone to name a Muslim musician or composer and they'll probably look blankly at you and say, "Paula Abdul?" (her parents are Jewish, actually.)

In the western world yes. But then how many japanese ones can you name?


Fixed it for you.


No if creativity was the issue islam would have been flattened by china on about day 1.


Islam smothers creativity.


Not really. Look at the historic islamic heartlands. Other than egypt those areas havn't been centers of creativity since the area really could be call the fertile cresent. Egypt never really recovered from the roman occupation.


The Christian church screamed bloody murder when Darwin published his theory of evolution.

By then it was all over. Europe had tapped the rescources of the americas india bits of africa and was starting to draw on australia. The islamic world was stuck with various less productive areas of the planet.

No you need to look a couple of centries before. The 16th and 17th centuries would appear to be when the current trajectory of islam and europe began.


But nobody ordered up a fatwa to have him killed. Imagine you're a Muslim Darwin and you have a scientific theory that conflicts with the Koran. Do you publish it, or do you keep your mouth shut and your head attached to your neck?

Darwin didn't want to publish. Copernicus was awfuly hesitant but it isn't clear as to why. The catholic church was prepared to burn heretics but europe's fractionalism made this difficult.

The problem with your statement is that it is a bit hard to produce a scientific area that can solidy be proven to be against the koran. Dispite claims to the contrary the Koran has be re-interprited acoss time and across cultures. For example it is posible to argue that the Koran does not in fact forbit images of Mohhamed.

[WildCat]

No one wants to admit that maybe, just maybe, there really is a problem with RELIGION in general.
If there was a country still ruled by the Pope (besides the Vatican itself, of course) I'd agree with you. But the fact is, there isn't. No country that I know of is a Christian theocracy, nor are any moving in that direction. I don't know of any country where Christianity is not just the state religion, but that outlaws the practice of all others. I don't see any Christian leaders calling for the death of non-believers, nor of Christian crowds rioting in the streets because of some perceived slight to Jesus. Christians aren't going halfway around the world to kill non-believers, and doing so on video so they can sell the snuff dvd's in Christian flea markets.

That hasn't happened in hundreds of years in Christendom, and is unlikely to ever happen again. Because Christianity had a Reformation, and Islam has not.

[fuelair]

ETA: Respons to Sunni Man's post #39 in this thread.

Some possible reasons could be that during the time of the Ottoman Empire acceptance of slavery probably prevented the desire to acquire the means to be able to manufacture and develop other machines. In the current times, the majority of schools in Muslim countries (despite the example of Education City) may prefer to focus exclusively on the Koran rather than on the Koran, the sciences and other bodies of knowledge. {shrug} Just some possibilities.

Actually, the only field that the Empire did well in that is science related is mathematics - and medicine (with, over time, many limitations). And those demonstrate the point that the religion stifled development. Math was fine because certain elements of it were useful in architecture and pattern design, neither of which could lead to proof that there was just no god (dropping the traditional..but Allah). Medicine, because it could help keep the faithful alive to keep faithing - as long as it involved no prohibited materials. Science can't afford to consider silly crap like whether it disproves stupid religious ideas or not doing certain studies because they involve religiously untouchable materials/procedures. So, a high civilization slowly drowned in it's superstition and lost what it once had. Then tried to blame others for it like a whining child.:):)

[Sunni Man]

Because Christianity had a Reformation, and Islam has not.
And I hope we never do. Islam is just fine the way it is.

[Sunni Man]

Because Christianity had a Reformation, and Islam has not.
And I hope we never do. Islam is just fine the way it is.

[kosai]

If there was a country still ruled by the Pope (besides the Vatican itself, of course) I'd agree with you. But the fact is, there isn't. No country that I know of is a Christian theocracy, nor are any moving in that direction. I don't know of any country where Christianity is not just the state religion, but that outlaws the practice of all others. I don't see any Christian leaders calling for the death of non-believers, nor of Christian crowds rioting in the streets because of some perceived slight to Jesus. Christians aren't going halfway around the world to kill non-believers, and doing so on video so they can sell the snuff dvd's in Christian flea markets.

That hasn't happened in hundreds of years in Christendom, and is unlikely to ever happen again. Because Christianity had a Reformation, and Islam has not.

Government classification is a very blurry line. How many true theocracies can you count in the middle east? Iran and Saudi Arabia? As far as "moving in that direction" well that's a bit of an opinion piece but it's been argued you live in one. Bans of gay marriage and abortion rights isn't based on any Scientific data I know of. Evangelicals in this country and their control on the Republican Party could count as "direction changing." Of course your points are valid but you're ignoring history in your examples. Yes it appears Christian states are winning the race away from the dark ages but superstition has been a ball and chain on civilization for a long time.

[gtc]

When serbia had that civil dissorder over the kosovo independance thing it wasn't "christians riot".

Those were nationalist riots, so calling them 'christian riots' is wrong. The riots over the cartoons are religious riots, so referring to the religion of the rioters is relevant (and absolutely necessary if you want to understand why they rioted).

The correct analogy would be to point out that the idea that all Muslims are rioters based on the cartoon riots is as silly as suggesting that all Serbs are rioters based on the riots over Kosova.

Head of the serbian orthodox church would beg to differ. And it is religious. Look at all the religious elements that appear in the Battle of Kosovo mythology.

Are you suggesting that the riots over the cartoons were not religiously motivated but that the riots over Kosova were religious in nature?

I could accept an argument that religion plays a part in the serb riots and that non-religious concerns played a part in the muslim riots but they were certainly not the main reasons behind each riot.

[fuelair]

And I hope we never do. Islam is just fine the way it is.So is fertilizer, like the statement above this.

[Kopji]

If this map is correct,

http://aycu35.webshots.com/image/45674/2002151582247023406_rs.jpg
(from jihadwatch.org's Islam 101)

I think you might have your answer why their glorious culture withered away. In my opinion, it's because they could not usurp large areas and their culture anymore, like Persia or India, thus lacking new dhimmis with knowledge in the sciences at some point.

Actually, it should be noted that when the Moors were driven from Spain, the Jews were driven out too. The name of that little white map arrow is called the 'Spanish Inquisition'. :p

And the Muslim advance into Europe was decisively halted at two events, one was the Battle of Tours in southern France, and the other at Vienna. The one in Tours especially significant - one of those key hinges in history like Thermoplye. It is generally considered that if the battle went the other way we'd all be bowing to Allah and wearing funny hats.

[quixotecoyote]

Actually, it should be noted that when the Moors were driven from Spain, the Jews were driven out too. The name of that little white map arrow is called the 'Spanish Inquisition'. :p

And the Muslim advance into Europe was decisively halted at two events, one was the Battle of Tours in southern France, and the other at Vienna. The one in Tours especially significant - one of those key hinges in history like Thermoplye. It is generally considered that if the battle went the other way we'd all be bowing to Allah and wearing funny hats.

Going to have to disagree with you here. IIRC the Umayyads were out to pillage a local monastery, not to conquer the Franks. As long as Martel avoided getting himself killed he was probably going to win in the end by that point. Remember, he whomped the Muslims constantly after that, all the way back to Iberia. That says to me their staying power was pretty much already spent.

[marksman]

There have been some progress in the Muslim world in literature.

Salman Rushdie is considered one of the great pioneers in the magic realism movement. Of course, that's despite having a fatwa on his head.

And Egyptian Naguib Mahfouz won the 1988 Nobel Prize for Literature. (Sadly, he passed away a few years ago.) Mahfouz had his own problems with Islam though, calling the Ayatollah a terrorist for putting a fatwa on Rushdie. He was stabbed in the neck by an extremist for his trouble.

There are plenty of internationally known Muslim poets, artists and writers. Islam actually has a long tradition of excellence in poetry, art and writing. However, as noted above, most of these artists eventually have a run-in with the religious leadership. I don't think it would be unfair to say that Muslim excellence in these fields is often in spite of the religion.

Muslim scientists are much harder to find but they are there. Ahmed Zewail won the Nobel Prize in the field of Chemistry in 1999. Abdus Salaam won the Nobel Prize in Physics in the 1970's. Loftali Asker Zadeh is an Iranian-born pioneer in computer science and mathematics. Jawed Karim is a German-born Muslim who co-founded You Tube and PayPal (so I guess he's the Muslim Bill Gates). Pierre Omidyar is a French-born Iranian Muslim who founded E-Bay.

These guys don't have a problem with their religion (although some of them are not practicing Muslims) because Islam doesn't really care about physics or chemistry or making money.

Why are most of them living in America or Europe? Because that's where the particle accelerators are. Until the 1950's, anyplace but America or Europe was technologically backwards and that was most definitely a product of European colonialism. Some places are turning that around. Japan, South Korea and Israel did it remarkably. India is working at it. So is China and a lot of the "Asian Tigers". Heck, Brazil and Mexico both have a shot at it if they can reform their cultures of corruption. All have a long way to go.

Some Muslim nations are too. Dubai and many of the small Gulf States are making remarkable strides. Indonesia and Turkey are struggling but working at it. By all rights, Iran, Egypt and Pakistan should be too, given traditional cultures that emphasized education, but they are definitely being hampered by fundamentalists who see any form of economic progress as Westernization or neo-colonialism.

[Kopji]

Going to have to disagree with you here. IIRC the Umayyads were out to pillage a local monastery, not to conquer the Franks. As long as Martel avoided getting himself killed he was probably going to win in the end by that point. Remember, he whomped the Muslims constantly after that, all the way back to Iberia. That says to me their staying power was pretty much already spent.


'Abd-ar-Rahman, the Muslim governor of Córdoba, had invaded Aquitaine (present southwestern France) and defeated its duke, Eudes. Eudes appealed for help to Charles, who stationed his forces to defend the city of Tours from the northward progress of the Muslims. According to tradition, the Muslim cavalry attacks broke upon Charles's massed infantry, and after 'Abd-ar-Rahman was killed in the fighting, the Arabs retired southward. There were no further Muslim invasions of Frankish territory, and Charles's victory has often been regarded as decisive for world history, since it preserved western Europe from Muslim conquest and Islamization.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9060566/Battle-of-Tours


I think Muslims are mostly a superstitious lot, and this would be taken as a sign from God. :) Left me sort of wondering what wars would have been fought over if the religions had been out of the mix.

[BPSCG]

Where are all the Hindu Shakespeares, Jeffersons, Bachs, Einsteins?

Where's the Muslim Gandhi?

Do you think that maybe the reason we think so highly of these people is because they have been idolized in our culture?

And why should we lay the blame on Islam? Plenty of other societies (like the rest of the world) didn't reach the technological strength of Europe and America and plenty of other groups aren't represented in our mythological figures.
Funny you should mention Hindus. They're mostly in India. Largely-Hindu India is now a major economic power, while its next door neighbor, largely-Muslim Pakistan, is just another grubby Muslim dictatorship. And yet, they were once the same country!

What happened?

[JoeEllison]

Wow, so much ethnocentric stupidity.
That's what it is all about, isn't it? Finding someone to hate, and making up moronic excuses to dehumanize them. Instead of attributing Western ignorance of other cultures to a lack of education about them, or due to Western arrogance, some people choose to act as though other cultures are simply unworthy of study.

It is the same ignorance that drives the OP: that guy doesn't know anything about Muslims or the Middle East, except what he sees on TV, and then pretends that what he sees on TV is all there is to know.

[BPSCG]

That's what it is all about, isn't it? Finding someone to hate, and making up moronic excuses to dehumanize them.If you wanted to trivialize the issue, yes, that's what it would be.

What it's really all about is trying to find an explanation why Islam is the most prominent religion to have failed to adapt to the modern world.

Every other major religion has either embraced the industrial, scientific, and economic revolutions, or at least stopped resisting them. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists - none of them fear being sentenced to death by their religious elders because they publish things that conflict with the teachings of their religion.

[mrbaracuda]

What it's really all about is trying to find an explanation why Islam is the most prominent religion to have failed to adapt to the modern world.

Uh, Islam is the explanation? :p

[kosai]

That's what it is all about, isn't it? Finding someone to hate, and making up moronic excuses to dehumanize them. Instead of attributing Western ignorance of other cultures to a lack of education about them, or due to Western arrogance, some people choose to act as though other cultures are simply unworthy of study.

It is the same ignorance that drives the OP: that guy doesn't know anything about Muslims or the Middle East, except what he sees on TV, and then pretends that what he sees on TV is all there is to know.

There's been questions asked of you in this thread, I've also asked that you be specific rather than simply dismissing the article as a whole. Calling it a hate speech and ignoring everyones counterpoints throughout the thread isn't going to change anyones mind. Or does your deep understanding Muslims and the Middle East bring you above this discussion?

Also, I love your posts because they can be reworded so easily to show you aren't making a logical argument. You will skim past these because you don't really care how you are arguing just that your "West bad Muslims good" rants are heard. But anyway I can change a couple words in your post and show you it's not different from woo-worthy arguments. Just change your 2nd paragraph to:

It is the same ignorance that drives the OP: that guy doesn't know anything about Acupuncture, except what he sees on TV, and then pretends that what he sees on TV is all there is to know.

So again it's "Western Arrogance" that says modern thinking like modern medicine is the only solution right? Maybe we should all give acupuncture and Sharia Law their god given chance.