[Edited thread]Al-Jazeera apologizes for Wafa Sultan as guest

[mrbaracuda]

I think it is this they are apologizing for now:

gjNIJBkpsR0
pt1
l-hwsyytUTs
pt2

Go look for pt3 and pt4 yourself please; it's a bit confusing what is part of what.

Or it is this:

lYB4pG3kHIY

I'm tired right now, but I think it's the earlier.

Al-Jazeera apologizes over 'Barbarian Muslims' remark

Syrian-American psychologist's unprecedented attack on Islam stirs row in Arab world. Qatari satellite network rushes to apologize, cancel reruns

[...]

"The al-Jazeera network deeply apologizes for the fact that one of its programs' participants degraded Islam and the monotheistic faiths on her own initiative. The channel extends its apology to all its viewers for the offensive remarks and has canceled both reruns of the program," the network said in a statement.

ynetnews.net (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3516759,00.html)

I don't know what to think of this yet. Is this "political Islam" growing so strong that al-Jazeera has to apologize for Wafa Sultan?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well Sunni Man, it appears you prefer the ignorant tactic of attacking the messenger rather than addressing the points Ms Sultan articulates.

The inability to have a rational discussion about the problems with various versions of Islam would seem to be one of the issues Sultan is trying to address. And this cry of insulting Mohammad is one of those discussion stopping barriers. But from the outside it is obvious that it is the controllers who don't want their actions and decrees challenged. And the ignorant followers are all too happy to comply with voices and violence that while they believe is doing God's will, is really only doing the will of greedy men.

Wiki has a nice summary of the campaign Wafa Sultan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa_Sultan) is on to help at least some of those masses stand up to those manipulating greedy leaders.

The New York Times estimated that the video of her appearance was viewed at least one million times as it spread via weblogs and email.[3] Sultan revealed to the Times that she is working on a book to be called The Escaped Prisoner: When God Is a Monster....

Sultan describes her thesis as witnessing "a battle between modernity and barbarism which Islam will lose"....

Sultan believes that "The trouble with Islam is deeply rooted in its teachings. Islam is not only a religion. Islam [is] also a political ideology that preaches violence and applies its agenda by force."[citation needed] In a discussion with Ahmad bin Muhammad, she said: "It was these teachings that distorted this terrorist and killed his humanity".[4]

Sultan stated that she was shocked into secularism by the 1979 atrocities committed by Islamic extremists of the Muslim Brotherhood against innocent Syrian people, including the machine-gun assassination of her professor, Yusef al Yusef,[5] an ophthalmologist renowned beyond Syria, in her classroom in front of her eyes at the University of Aleppo where she was a medical student. "They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."[6]...

[Sunni Man]

Well Sunni Man, it appears you prefer the ignorant tactic of attacking the messenger rather than addressing the points Ms Sultan articulates.

She is an Alawite. They are not considered Muslims by 99.9% of the Muslims of the world.

Alawites are mainly a secular cult that have nothing in common with Islam.

The West doesn't know this, and thinks she is speaking about her fellow muslims. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The Islamic people of the world know this and see her as a joke.

But America and the West are full of gulible people. Who eat up the nonsense she is saying.

[Cincinnatus]

Wafa Sultan is just a secular slut that speaks arabic.

She is a joke in the Islamic world.

Spoken like a true wahhabi muslim with pent up hate for a so-called Apostate.

She is an Alawite. They are not considered Muslims by 99.9% of the Muslims of the world.

"The Alawites take their name from Imam Ali, cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad, also the 4th and last "rightly guided Caliph" of Islam.The Alawite sect is a somewhat Gnostic version of Shia islam.Alawites today claim to be Twelver Shi'ites. They believe that in each world age special prophets like Jesus or Mohammed came to show the right path. Alawites declare themselves to be Muslims in their catechism and believe that Muhammad is God's messenger.Alawites enjoy all the rights of Muslims in Syria. Nevertheless, Alawites have paid a steep price for political success and for a share of political power and equality in the nation.50% of Syrians or more accepted them as Muslims." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawite

[mrbaracuda]

Please do not feed the troll.

Thank you.

Why do people keep saying he's a troll? I mean, apart from his beaviour, he seems to be just the kind of muslim I'd call "real" and who tries following Islam like it's meant to be lived.

She is an Alawite. They are not considered Muslims by 99.9% of the Muslims of the world.

Alawites are mainly a secular cult that have nothing in common with Islam.

The West doesn't know this, and thinks she is speaking about her fellow muslims. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The Islamic people of the world know this and see her as a joke.

But America and the West are full of gulible people. Who eat up the nonsense she is saying.

She's an Alawite? Interesting. That sheds some new light on her, although I'd like you to provide a source for your claim. And I think I agree with your statement that they aren't considered as being very muslim.

Well Sunni Man, it appears you prefer the ignorant tactic of attacking the messenger rather than addressing the points Ms Sultan articulates.

If I were you, I'd stop expecting to see him discussing much at all. I think there's some kind of golden rule not to discuss Islam as a muslim with non-muslims. Maybe Sunni Man can tell us more - and even provide some source or at least a keyword I can look for.

[CFLarsen]

If
Al-Jazeera feels the need to apologize for what one of the guests - not an employee - says
Then
Al-Jazeera thinks it is responsible for what the guests say
Which means that
Al-Jazeera is catering to religion and is not independent.

I wonder if Al-Jazeera will have Dawkins or Harris on.

[David Wong]

I repeat: Bull-puckey.

You two seem intent on allowing yourselves to be trolled. More power to you.

Hi. Google "9/11."

Those were muslims. You'll be surprised to learn that there is a whole bunch of them who believe as Sunni Man here does.

You really should open a newspaper some time.

[mrbaracuda]

Put it this way, would the kind of person who sincerely says this:



And countless other drivels he's spouted, be hanging around on the randi forums? Or could it be a troll?

I don't get your question, since he's already hanging around here. But can it be that he's both, hanging around here and a troll and muslim? Or can he not be a muslim just because he's exactly what you despise and you're being told all the time that muslims aren't like that, no, they can't be like that?

[Darth Rotor]

Actual Muslims come in a variety of shapes, sizes, nationalities, and viewpoints. I worked with Turkish and Malaysian actual Muslims, who were a bit more casual about their faith (as many Christians are) than the Arab actual Muslims I worked with (a small handful) who were a bit more focused on doctrine but were still adroit at the balancing of the secular/faith interface. I've not had much chance to work with (though plenty against) fundamentalist or radical Muslims, and Islamists.

I've had the chance to work with plenty of Christians, all with varying depth of doctrinal vigor, and far more Fundamentalist Christians that I'd care to, but that's life: you play the hand you are dealt.

Any pretense that there is only one kind of true, actual Muslim embarks upon the road to kilt sales in the bazaar of the bizarre.

Muslims: A mixed bag. It's a people thing. I believe Sunni Man's assertion that many Arab (and for that matter Persian, Pashto, Afghan, and Indian) Muslims find the strident, elitist position she took on that Al Jazeera clip, which has been wandering about the web for some time, a combination of tasteless, rude, and worse, depending upon their total world view. I suspect any number of Muslim men and women quietly agreed with her. No idea on how it breaks down.

But can it be that he's both, hanging around here and a troll and muslim?
Could be. Not sure how to bet this one yet, but given his penchant for short, glib comments, I sense that the Farce is strong in this one. ;)

DR

[monoman]

I don't get your question, since he's already hanging around here. But can it be that he's both, hanging around here and a troll and muslim? Or can he not be a muslim just because he's exactly what you despise and you're being told all the time that muslims aren't like that, no, they can't be like that?

I know there are muslims like that. What i'm saying is, i don't believe someone like that would be posting on the randi forums. I think it's somebody having a laugh.

I'd love to have a frothing, blithering idiot like that on board but from what i've read of his posts so far, it seems unlikely.

It'd be interesting to have someone pose a few tricky questions related to the religion and see if he can respond, in a timely manner, before having ploughed through google and wikipedia.

[Lucky]

If you think for a second that Sunni Man is anything other than a troll (poorly) presenting a stereotype, then I have no problem saying that the number of actual Muslims you know must be very, very small.
Can't speak for mrbaracuda, but I have known a large number of Muslims, mostly from around my home in West Yorkshire.

When I first noticed Sunni Man's posts (he was denying the Holocaust) I thought he was a British Muslim. I thought of engaging him in conversation and pointing him to some evidence, because in my experience it sometimes doesn't take much with young British Muslims to overturn at least Holocaust trivialisation (which is very common here). I actually started to draft a long post, with some details from my family history, and then I noticed that he's American, which changed my mind about the feasibility of getting through to him (not sure why).

Certainly he's exhibited some seriously obnoxious behaviour, but that's not especially unusual on this board, and (sadly) is not a reason to believe him a fake. Of course I can't be sure, but I see no reason to suppose he's not who he says he is. As a West Yorkshire Muslim he would be very extreme, but by no means implausible (obviously haven't read all his posts).


Put it this way, would the kind of person who sincerely says this:



And countless other drivels he's spouted, be hanging around on the randi forums? Or could it be a troll?

I say it's far more likely to be the latter, so anyone arguing with him are wasting their time.
Fact is, we do get posters with views at odds with almost everyone else here. What about the other Holocaust deniers, for example - do you think they are all trolls? They seem pretty genuine(ly deluded) to me.

If in doubt, isn't it better to assume he's genuine, and try to discuss with him and educate him? If he really is a Sunni Muslim, I wouldn't say he's a troll – and from his style, he's not here to proselytise! He may well be really trying to have some kind of dialogue).

[kosai]

I know there are muslims like that. What i'm saying is, i don't believe someone like that would be posting on the randi forums. I think it's somebody having a laugh.

I'd love to have a frothing, blithering idiot like that on board but from what i've read of his posts so far, it seems unlikely.

It'd be interesting to have someone pose a few tricky questions related to the religion and see if he can respond, in a timely manner, before having ploughed through google and wikipedia.

This forum brings people who claim to read minds, see ghosts, have evidence of bigfoot, are able to predict the future, and use pendulums to guess lotto numbers... You find him the least realistic? Really?

[monoman]

This forum brings people who claim to read minds, see ghosts, have evidence of bigfoot, are able to predict the future, and use pendulums to guess lotto numbers... You find him the least realistic? Really?

I do. Some of the other people are trolls as well. The others seem sincere in their delusions.

It's his style, it's so stereotypical.

He made a post a week or so ago about his grandmother weeping in her bed because of the danish cartoons! I just can't see that happening unless there's some tv cameras around.

ETA: Hi Lucky, I'm originally from Holmfirth myself. I haven't had much interaction with muslims there except a friend of my dad's who was a pakistani muslim. All i remember is he made fricking hot delicious currys and put paprika in the cucumber rata, which i'd always used to cool my mouth down!

[WildCat]

You left out one glaring possibility:

d.) The majority of the Muslim world has no idea who Wafa Sultan is, but don't appreciate Al-Jazeera giving a platform to someone denouncing their faith.
Can you point out what your "real Muslims" would get offended about in this video? I assume you think "real Muslims" are moderates? Please point out what she says that would offend moderate, real Muslims.

2WLoasfOLpQ

[Darth Rotor]

The sad part is, it's people like you who accept their calls for special pleading by using their religion as a shield from criticism that is doing the most harm. Wafa Sultan is not some bigot, she understands the real issues for why the middle east is stuck in the dark ages when it comes to politics, civics, extremism, science, technology, everything. She is promoting the mythical islam you seem to believe in but you are saying she is "denouncing" the religion.

She wants her True Muslim Brand kilts to have a greater market share. She's up against some better established brands.

DR

[Lucky]

It's his style, it's so stereotypical.

He made a post a week or so ago about his grandmother weeping in her bed because of the danish cartoons! I just can't see that happening unless there's some tv cameras around.

ETA: Hi Lucky, I'm originally from Holmfirth myself. I haven't had much interaction with muslims there except a friend of my dad's who was a pakistani muslim. All i remember is he made fricking hot delicious currys and put paprika in the cucumber rata, which i'd always used to cool my mouth down!

Hi monoman – I often go out hiking around Holmfirth – lovely area. My home's not far away, but it's in industrial W Yorks (rather, ex-industrial :().

I've looked at some more of Sunni Man's posts, and I now think it's much more likely that you're wrong. Look at any of his pro-Hamas, anti-Israel tirades, for instance – do you really think they aren't genuine?

He describes his history here:

White man in my fifties.
Vietnam Era Vet.
BA in Sociology.
Was a Christian lay preacher.
Converted to Islam 7 years ago.
Wahabbi school of Islamic thought
Married to Somali Muslim woman who wears hijab (covers her hair).
Very active in Islamic community and Mosque.

It rings very true to me, in conjunction with all his posts that I've read.

You misremembered his post about the 'weeping grandmother'. Here it is:
People in the West see it and think, "oh it's just a cartoon". We are very jaded in the west and nothing is sacred or given honor anymore.

When the cartoon was published it was absolutely one of the most terrible things imaginable to the Muslim friends I know.

My father-in-law became physically ill when he saw it in the news. And my mother-in-law just heard about the cartoon, and stayed in bed all day from grief.

I tell you this, just to show the depth of emotion the cartoon elicited from just plain, everyday, average Muslims.

Again, I see nothing at all implausible about that having been written by a Muslim (whether or not his mother-in-law really did take to her bed for grief). It's a pity he can't understand that Holocaust denial is "one of the most terrible things imaginable" to Jews. (Or perhaps he can, and that's the purpose.)

I think it's the fact that he's a white American male who converted to Islam in his forties or fifties (assuming it's true) that makes him sound like a fake. I also suspect he came to Islam through anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial rather than religious conviction.


He's a troll because he's doing nothing but making ridiculous statements for the purpose of stirring up trouble.

And you're falling for it, because it fits in to your notion of what Muslims must be like.
Cleon, everyone here (except, apparently, you) can see that the boot's on the other foot. Without a shred of evidence, you simply state that Sunni Man isn't a Muslim (and anyone who believes him is an imbecile or a bigot), because he doesn't fit the stereotype you hold. You should try applying your claimed skepticism to your own prejudices.

It really is too funny. Sunni Man, tell us, do: what do you think about your fellow rabid anti-Zionist and apologist for militant Islamism, Cleon, who won't believe you're a real Muslim because of your absurd, bigoted rantings???!!!

(Of course, Cleon's a Jew, so I doubt you have much interest in his opinions.)

[Skeptic Ginger]

...

If I were you, I'd stop expecting to see him discussing much at all. I think there's some kind of golden rule not to discuss Islam as a muslim with non-muslims. Maybe Sunni Man can tell us more - and even provide some source or at least a keyword I can look for.I don't expect anything. But that doesn't stop me from posting my observations on anyone else, why should I care what this guy thinks?

Actually, other than the tirade Sultan went on that was posted around the Net a while back, I had not been aware of her. Because of Sunni Man and the attention given Sultan trying to berate her, I was actually intrigued and went to read more. She looks like a wonderful woman, one with the real courage to stand up to intimidation and still hold her head up, someone probably willing to die for her beliefs, or at least risk the death threats.

This as opposed to the real cowardly men ranting along within the shelter of the crowd, threatening people with their feigned imaginary courage. Those who don't have real courage, who couldn't think to question what someone else told them was actually God's word, who couldn't read the Koran and decide for themselves what it actually says and question the leaders using the Koran to manipulate poor souls into violence all so the leaders can feel powerful. If Bin Laden really believed in martyrdom, he wouldn't be hiding in a cave. He wouldn't be sending others to die while he basked in celebrity. That's what Sunni Man is saying is the good true Islam. I agree with Sultan, it is not.

[Sunni Man]

Those who don't have real courage, who couldn't think to question what someone else told them was actually God's word, who couldn't read the Koran and decide for themselves what it actually says and question the leaders using the Koran to manipulate poor souls into violence all so the leaders can feel powerful.
Just curious, but have You ever read the Qur'an?

Did you know that tens of millions of Muslims are "Hafiz"? My wife is one.


"He who learns the Qur’an and practices upon it, his parents will be made to wear a crown on the day of Qiyamah, the brilliance of which will excel that of the sun if the same were within your worldly houses. Hence, what do you think about the person who himself acts upon it?" (Abu Dawood).

"Whoever reads the Qur’an and memorises it, while he regards what it makes lawful as lawful and its unlawful as forbidden (i.e. he practises according to it), Allah Ta’ala will admit him into Jannah and will accept his intercession on behalf of ten such persons of his family who were doomed to the fire of Jahannam" (Tirmidhi).

[Sunni Man]

If in doubt, isn't it better to assume he's genuine, and try to discuss with him and educate him? If he really is a Sunni Muslim, I wouldn't say he's a troll – and from his style, he's not here to proselytise! He may well be really trying to have some kind of dialogue).
Thank you Lucky for your support.

I originally came here because I saw a thread about Islam. So I posted my 2 cents.

Every since then, I have basically been attacked as a troll.

Why I don't know? All I have been doing is stating my beliefs from an Islamic point of reference.

But many people here already have their mind made up as to what a Muslim should and shouldn't believe. Actually it's kind of comical.

My job entails some travel around the country. Whenever I go to different states I visit the local Mosques.

I counted up the other day, that I have visited almost 40 different Mosques in 10 states.

I am especially well known in the Mosques of Austin, Texas and Pensacola, Florida and Boston, Mass.

So if you have questions about Islam and Muslims. And want the truth. I am the guy.

Not the anti-Islamic nonsense of Wafa Sultan.

Or the feel good, Political Correct , Islam "lite" most people want to hear.

[gnome]

I originally came here because I saw a thread about Islam. So I posted my 2 cents.

Every since then, I have basically been attacked as a troll.

Why I don't know? All I have been doing is stating my beliefs from an Islamic point of reference.

You have been attacked as a troll for not debating in good faith, responding to substantive points with just more inflammatory statements instead of actual arguments that refute or address the points of people you disagree with.

It has nothing to do with your opinion, it has to do with the way you're presenting it.

[Lucky]

Thank you Lucky for your support.

I originally came here because I saw a thread about Islam. So I posted my 2 cents.

Every since then, I have basically been attacked as a troll.

Why I don't know? All I have been doing is stating my beliefs from an Islamic point of reference.

But many people here already have their mind made up as to what a Muslim should and shouldn't believe. Actually it's kind of comical.

My job entails some travel around the country. Whenever I go to different states I visit the local Mosques.

I counted up the other day, that I have visited almost 40 different Mosques in 10 states.

I am especially well known in the Mosques of Austin, Texas and Pensacola, Florida and Boston, Mass.

So if you have questions about Islam and Muslims. And want the truth. I am the guy.

Not the anti-Islamic nonsense of Wafa Sultan.

Or the feel good, Political Correct , Islam "lite" most people want to hear.
I believe you are who you say you are. It is very unfortunate that visitors here who don't match the one-size-fits-all 'skeptic' model are often falsely accused of being 'trolls' (whatever that means). Dialogue is always better than rejection – and I, a Jew of German origin whose family was all but obliterated by the Nazis, can say that to you, a Holocaust denier. If it is at all possible to engage you in genuine dialogue then I have no doubt that you will listen to overwhelming evidence and reason, and retract your error.

I understand you so well, Sunni Man. I am thinking of some western-originating ultra-orthodox Israeli relatives, whose lifestyle you would most certainly approve of, but which I and all their secular, Reform and mainstream orthodox relatives dislike. They are not converts, as you are, but they have adopted an alien tradition for reasons that I can identify with though not approve. You and they, my western Muslim acquaintance, are two sides of the same coin. (btw, I love and respect them – even though I disagree with every one of their religious and political opinions - and they have learnt some respect for the Reform point of view from discussing with me.)

I don't think you can tell me "the truth" about Islam. I have learnt a lot about real-world, on-the-ground Islam from many Muslim friends and colleagues over the years. It's extraordinarily similar to real-world, on-the-ground Judaism. (Just one trivial memory - a former colleague, a Muslim in his early twenties who normally relied on his parents in these matters - whenever we had to eat out with clients he would always ask me what he could eat from the menu, on the grounds that if it's OK by kashrut it's certainly OK by halal.)

[a_unique_person]

I've looked at some more of Sunni Man's posts, and I now think it's much more likely that you're wrong. Look at any of his pro-Hamas, anti-Israel tirades, for instance – do you really think they aren't genuine?

He describes his history here:


It rings very true to me, in conjunction with all his posts that I've read.

You misremembered his post about the 'weeping grandmother'. Here it is:


I have been quite prepared to take him at face value .... up till now. If he is a recent convert to Islam from xianity, why would his grandmother be islamic? (Which is what I think the inference is, in this case). Unless he is referring to his grandmother in law.

[gtc]

Why I don't know? All I have been doing is stating my beliefs from an Islamic point of reference.

Oh Sunni is certainly a troll. Statements like this one are the give aways.

However, that doesn't mean that he is not an actual Muslim revert. As I have said before, his posts sound very much like those of a fundamentalist Christian convert that I know. These people have never been good at arguing their points, but fundamental religion gives them the perfect argument, 'I'm right, you're going to Hell'.

Sunni is also slightly more moderate than some of the Muslims I know of (http://indymediawatch.blogspot.com/2005/04/faruque-ahmed-idiot-savant-without.html); and his statements are no more 'out there' than the statements we see time and time again in the Muslim media (see Memri.org) and in the charters of Hamas and other such organisations.

I also know, and have lived and worked around, quite a few muslims. Most are as moderate as the average Christian (particularly those from South East Asia and Southern Asia). Unfortunately for Cleon's argument, one or two of the moderates that I have known have come out with some very anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

Islam does have an enormous problem. There are far too many immoderate Muslims and those Muslims can all too easily find support for their beliefs in the works of Mohammed. Denying it won't make it go away.

[a_unique_person]

Oh Sunni is certainly a troll. Statements like this one are the give aways.

However, that doesn't mean that he is not an actual Muslim revert. As I have said before, his posts sound very much like those of a fundamentalist Christian convert that I know. These people have never been good at arguing their points, but fundamental religion gives them the perfect argument, 'I'm right, you're going to Hell'.

Sunni is also slightly more moderate than some of the Muslims I know of (http://indymediawatch.blogspot.com/2005/04/faruque-ahmed-idiot-savant-without.html); and his statements are no more 'out there' than the statements we see time and time again in the Muslim media (see Memri.org) and in the charters of Hamas and other such organisations.

I also know, and have lived and worked around, quite a few muslims. Most are as moderate as the average Christian (particularly those from South East Asia and Southern Asia). Unfortunately for Cleon's argument, one or two of the moderates that I have known have come out with some very anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

Islam does have an enormous problem. There are far too many immoderate Muslims and those Muslims can all too easily find support for their beliefs in the works of Mohammed. Denying it won't make it go away.

I find it easy to believe what I have read him saying, when I read people saying they'd like to see a whole country glassed because they don't like it.

[mrbaracuda]

I don't expect anything. But that doesn't stop me from posting my observations on anyone else, why should I care what this guy thinks?

Actually, other than the tirade Sultan went on that was posted around the Net a while back, I had not been aware of her. Because of Sunni Man and the attention given Sultan trying to berate her, I was actually intrigued and went to read more. She looks like a wonderful woman, one with the real courage to stand up to intimidation and still hold her head up, someone probably willing to die for her beliefs, or at least risk the death threats.

She's not too much of a prominent figure but seems to appear on TV now and then and can be seen at forums with people like Robert Spencer. Usually those people are even in the west labelled as racist, bigot and hate mongers.
I don't know if she was part of this Islamo-fascism-awareness-week, but it's people like her who attended and held speeches. Whereas I think you would be one of those people disrupting their speeches, holding up signs to protest against them, shouting racist bigot etc. like these people

4KKa5gM4H9Y

or these

PzoUWP48R2o

This as opposed to the real cowardly men ranting along within the shelter of the crowd, threatening people with their feigned imaginary courage. Those who don't have real courage, who couldn't think to question what someone else told them was actually God's word, who couldn't read the Koran and decide for themselves what it actually says and question the leaders using the Koran to manipulate poor souls into violence all so the leaders can feel powerful. If Bin Laden really believed in martyrdom, he wouldn't be hiding in a cave. He wouldn't be sending others to die while he basked in celebrity. That's what Sunni Man is saying is the good true Islam. I agree with Sultan, it is not.

Uh, Usama aside, I think you didn't really get what Wafa Sultan is on about.

Or the feel good, Political Correct , Islam "lite" most people want to hear.

Basically she's saying that it's Islam's teachings what turns peaceful people into people full of hate and violence, thus wants reform. What Sunni Man is hinting at with his posts seems to be indeed "good true" Islam, or at least how it's meant to be lived and has been lived with exceptions ever since it was established and is mainstream at that.

I think what they really lack to get their world-wide jihad going is a caliphate. Ever noticed all those radical muslims who want a caliphate back?

ynD9go9U764

After reading a bit in the 'Umdat al-Salik' or 'Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law' I noticed that a lot of decisions are up to the caliph, but 'repelling the invading enemy by all means' as a part of jihad can be done without a caliph, but here again opinions differ and there's some rules lain out. You can read about them through the lines in here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=108573) in the interview.

[Lisa Simpson]

I have moved some of the posts from the original thread back into Politics. The bickering will stay in AAH.

[Lisa Simpson]

I'm sorry, people...I didn't realize the thread would carry over its 'locked' status when I moved the posts back. Thanks Lucky, for the heads-up.

Carry on.

[Lucky]

I have been quite prepared to take him at face value .... up till now. If he is a recent convert to Islam from xianity, why would his grandmother be islamic? (Which is what I think the inference is, in this case). Unless he is referring to his grandmother in law.
a_u_p, pay attention, please! As I pointed out in the very post you quoted, Sunni Man never mentioned his 'grandmother'; it was his mother-in-law. Here it is again:
About the cartoon:

People in the West see it and think, "oh it's just a cartoon". We are very jaded in the west and nothing is sacred or given honor anymore.

When the cartoon was published it was absolutely one of the most terrible things imaginable to the Muslim friends I know.

My father-in-law became physically ill when he saw it in the news. And my mother-in-law just heard about the cartoon, and stayed in bed all day from grief.

I tell you this, just to show the depth of emotion the cartoon elicited from just plain, everyday, average Muslims.
He'd already said in a previous post that he's married to a Muslim of Somali origin.

I really can't see why people find this, or any of his other posts, suspicious. They seem perfectly genuine to me. Of course I'm not certain - he could be a troll with a completely fictitious background, as any of us could.

You know, I have this quaint idea that people (opponents, maybe) are more likely to listen to us, engage in discussion, and possibly learn, if we refrain from calling them liars and trolls on zero evidence. How many people here ever have the opportunity to learn something at first hand about the mindset of an actual, individual, Muslim, rather than relying on some stereotype (idealised or demonised) that fits their prejudices? And here is one with some especially obnoxious views (Holocaust denial etc.), who could certainly benefit from our collective wisdom. It's a shame that instead of a debate we get the tired old "you're a troll" response (not directing this at you, a_u_p). It's a big problem on the forum and, I think, seriously diminishes its value - not especially in Politics, it happens a lot in General Skepticism, too.


I find it easy to believe what I have read him saying, when I read people saying they'd like to see a whole country glassed because they don't like it.
At least, unlike Cleon, you acknowledge that groups on both sides indulge in the rhetoric of genocide – and some of them mean it.


Anyway, in response to Lisa's little hint that she wants us to get back on topic, of course Wafa Sultan has something important to say, and has a right to be heard. And of course al-Jazeera's snivelling apology was wrong. However, I am not quite so enthusiastic about her message as some other posters. In the UK at least, the majority of Muslims are both opposed to militant Islamism and also somewhat religious. I don't think that most of them would find any suggestion that they have to give up their religion in order to modernise and integrate particularly attractive. She may not say this outright, but the fact that she's a non-religious person attacking her former religion is unavoidably part of the message.

[mrbaracuda]

So I found the show the article is about on memriTV (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1704.htm) after all!

[GreyICE]

Thank you Lucky for your support.

I originally came here because I saw a thread about Islam. So I posted my 2 cents.

Every since then, I have basically been attacked as a troll.

Why I don't know? All I have been doing is stating my beliefs from an Islamic point of reference.

But many people here already have their mind made up as to what a Muslim should and shouldn't believe. Actually it's kind of comical.

My job entails some travel around the country. Whenever I go to different states I visit the local Mosques.

I counted up the other day, that I have visited almost 40 different Mosques in 10 states.

I am especially well known in the Mosques of Austin, Texas and Pensacola, Florida and Boston, Mass.

So if you have questions about Islam and Muslims. And want the truth. I am the guy.

Not the anti-Islamic nonsense of Wafa Sultan.

Or the feel good, Political Correct , Islam "lite" most people want to hear.

Here's my two cents - I hate you. I hate everything you stand for. My dislike of Christians is mild to moderate (they range from harmless to moderately dangerous to virtual atheists themselves - most christians don't believe their own religion). Jews just cause amusement (how they can believe in a benevolent diety boggles the mind). Buddhists and Hindus are simply odd to amusing.

Your religion currently has the distinction of being the most evil of these blights. It has harmed me both personally, and impersonally. It has spawned more evil, more discrimination, more hatred, lies, and death than any other this century. While the others make half steps towards reason, it remains resolute in its horror and inhumanity.

So I guess my question is: How the hell do you look at that and claim to be proud of it? Why aren't you apologizing for your fellow Muslims, or at least claiming to have nothing to do with them? Why aren't you supporting any move to bring the middle east out of ignorance and barbarianism?

[Sunni Man]

Your religion currently has the distinction of being the most evil of these blights. It has harmed me both personally, and impersonally. It has spawned more evil, more discrimination, more hatred, lies, and death than any other this century. While the others make half steps towards reason, it remains resolute in its horror and inhumanity.

Why aren't you apologizing for your fellow Muslims, or at least claiming to have nothing to do with them? Why aren't you supporting any move to bring the middle east out of ignorance and barbarianism?
Apologize for what?

All Muslims are doing is defending themselves from the aggression of the West.

America and the Western allies are over there in the Middle East murdering people and causing havoc and choas.

The claims of ignorance and barbarianism you have, should be directed to you and your friends who are full of hate against the peace loving people of the Middle East.

[GreyICE]

Apologize for what?

All Muslims are doing is defending themselves from the aggression of the West.

America and the Western allies are over there in the Middle East murdering people and causing havoc and choas.

The claims of ignorance and barbarianism you have, should be directed to you and your friends who are full of hate against the peace loving people of the Middle East. The peace loving people? Aha, here you have chosen to err. I actually know what you are. You see, I dated a woman from Turkey. I have visited Turkey. And I know all about the amazing peace-loving Muslims. Y'see, her family didn't want her dating me. Because I wasn't Muslim, and I wasn't Turkish. And obviously they thought that if there was going to be any hope of a long-term relationship, I had to convert. She herself was an atheist, but couldn't tell them, because she was physically scared for her safety.

Oh yeah, and I was informed that her family was very liberal. Many of them would have beaten their daughter and forbidden her to see me again. And possibly killed me. Because I wasn't Muslim. Oh yeah, and Turkey is a really secular Muslim nation - I'd be dead if I fell for a woman from Iran.

So, your peace-loving Islamic nations? A bunch of hypocritical bull. I've been over there, I do read Al-Jazeera regularly, I do know whats going on in that little barbaric backwater. I can measure exactly how much **** you're full of. Honor killings? Iran's thought police? It's legal to kill people for holding hands? How do you defend these atrocities?

If I believed in the concept of evil, I'd have to apply it to Islam in the Middle East. Its the only institution that has made me question my firm belief that good and evil are arbitrary words used to stop legitimate debate.

[Sunni Man]

GreyICE just because you refused to honor the laws and customs of another country.

You now slander and debase them as evil.

You are a typical Westerner who thinks everyone should conform to your superior logic and ideas.

And we wonder why the rest of the world hates us!!!

[CFLarsen]

GreyICE just because you refused to honor the laws and customs of another country.

You now slander and debase them as evil.

You are a typical Westerner who thinks everyone should conform to your superior logic and ideas.

And we wonder why the rest of the world hates us!!!

What are you going to do about it?

[WildCat]

GreyICE just because you refused to honor the laws and customs of another country.

You now slander and debase them as evil.

You are a typical Westerner who thinks everyone should conform to your superior logic and ideas.

And we wonder why the rest of the world hates us!!!
:id:

[GreyICE]

GreyICE just because you refused to honor the laws and customs of another country.

You now slander and debase them as evil.

You are a typical Westerner who thinks everyone should conform to your superior logic and ideas.

And we wonder why the rest of the world hates us!!! You're damn right I do. Everyone should accept superior logic and superior ideas. The fact that you claim to hold dear ideas that you acknowledge and accept as inferior and illogical should be a giant red flag about your level of delusion.

Why should I accept that in other cultures its okay to rape women and kill people for holding hands? Why should I accept in other cultures that I have to convert to a religion in order to date someone? Why should I accept in other cultures that I would be killed for the crime of not being born of a certain race and religion?

Why do people think there's some impetus or reason to accept irrationality and insanity because the people advocating it live in a different geographical region? Why would someone ever think that a culture that is so intolerant that it would physically harm or kill someone for changing their belief system deserves a single ounce of tolerance?

[Sunni Man]

You're damn right I do. Everyone should accept superior logic and superior ideas. The fact that you claim to hold dear ideas that you acknowledge and accept as inferior and illogical should be a giant red flag about your level of delusion.

Why should I accept that in other cultures its okay to rape women and kill people for holding hands? Why should I accept in other cultures that I have to convert to a religion in order to date someone? Why should I accept in other cultures that I would be killed for the crime of not being born of a certain race and religion?

Why do people think there's some impetus or reason to accept irrationality and insanity because the people advocating it live in a different geographical region? Why would someone ever think that a culture that is so intolerant that it would physically harm or kill someone for changing their belief system deserves a single ounce of tolerance?Thankfully the Muslim girl listened to her parents and dumped you!! Praise Allah!!!

[Sunni Man]

You're damn right I do. Everyone should accept superior logic and superior ideas. The fact that you claim to hold dear ideas that you acknowledge and accept as inferior and illogical should be a giant red flag about your level of delusion.

Why should I accept that in other cultures its okay to rape women and kill people for holding hands? Why should I accept in other cultures that I have to convert to a religion in order to date someone? Why should I accept in other cultures that I would be killed for the crime of not being born of a certain race and religion?

Why do people think there's some impetus or reason to accept irrationality and insanity because the people advocating it live in a different geographical region? Why would someone ever think that a culture that is so intolerant that it would physically harm or kill someone for changing their belief system deserves a single ounce of tolerance?Thankfully the Muslim girl listened to her parents and dumped you!!

Praise Allah!!!

[GreyICE]

Thankfully the Muslim girl listened to her parents and dumped you!! Praise Allah!!!

She's an atheist. Miss that part? Oh, and nice attack, when you've already given up the logical high ground by claiming stuff you know is irrational, you are pretty much left with nonsense morality claims and insults as your only rhetorical devices.

[Sunni Man]

She's an atheist. Miss that part? Oh, and nice attack, when you've already given up the logical high ground by claiming stuff you know is irrational, you are pretty much left with nonsense morality claims and insults as your only rhetorical devices.She may have claimed to be an atheist, but she was born a Muslim.

That's why her wonderful parents demanded she dump your bigotted and intolerant ass.

She must have been a good Muslim raised girl to obey the wishes of her parents like that.

Hopefully she marries a good Muslim man who will bring her back to the Islamic faith where she belongs.

[GreyICE]

She may have claimed to be an atheist, but she was born a Muslim.

That's why her wonderful parents demanded she dump your bigotted and intolerant ass.

She must have been a good Muslim raised girl to obey the wishes of her parents like that.

Hopefully she marries a good Muslim man who will bring her back to the Islamic faith where she belongs.
You can't be born muslim. You can't be born Jewish or Christian or any belief system. Your parents may hold a belief system ,but that doesn't apply to the babies.

As for her, don't worry. She's already said that one of her criteria for dating is that the guy isn't Muslim. So there's no chance of your crazy fantasy happening.

As for me being bigoted and intolerant, no more than you. And a lot less than most Muslims, I have yet to riot or kill anyone. The difference is my intolerance is based on my observations - you cannot tolerate a system that is dedicated to bringing other systems down and inflicting their views upon others. Yours is based on the fact that it hurts that we're right and you... aren't.

[Sunni Man]

As for her, don't worry. She's already said that one of her criteria for dating is that the guy isn't Muslim. So there's no chance of your crazy fantasy happening.

I don't understand? She didn't marry you because you weren't a Muslim. But she says she won't marry a Muslim?

Dude somethings fishy here! I think she just wanted to dump your crazy ass and made up an excuse.

You got played big time!!!!!!!!

[GreyICE]

I don't understand? She didn't marry you because you weren't a Muslim. But she says she won't marry a Muslim?

Dude somethings fishy here! I think she just wanted to dump your crazy ass and made up an excuse.

You got played big time!!!!!!!! The flaw in your little assumption is the part where she dumped me. Glad religion doesn't inhibit rational reasoning or anything. And actually we're still good friends, she's just living in Turkey right now (I'm the one who decided it wasn't working). No, my hatred of Islam comes from the three years for which we did date, and observing all the fun shenanigans when I went to Turkey.

[Sunni Man]

The flaw in your little assumption is the part where she dumped me. Glad religion doesn't inhibit rational reasoning or anything. And actually we're still good friends, she's just living in Turkey right now (I'm the one who decided it wasn't working).
Sure Dude we all believe you! Yea, Man you dumped her!! Sure you did!!

[GreyICE]

Sure Dude we all believe you! Yea, Man you dumped her!! Sure you did!!

Out of curiousity, are you 13?

[Sunni Man]

Out of curiousity, are you 13?
13 X 4

[GreyICE]

13 X 4

Okay, then I'm simply out of explanations.

[Morrigan]

Well, he could still be a troll. :P I mean come on now... "hurr hurr she dumped you"?

[GreyICE]

Well, he could still be a troll. :P I mean come on now... "hurr hurr she dumped you"?
I'd buy it. Of course, given the behavior I've seen in certain religious forums over the years, well, lets just say nothing would surprise me.