Some questions for smart people (or believers)?

[spiderlandcapt]

I have made some explanations for the things I believe in and I also have some questions....


For the Christian beliefs

1. If God created us to worship him, then how can he be perfect? Doesn't got encompass all of the sins in the process of creating us?

2. If Lucifer was able to covet God's position, how can it be possible for humans in heaven not to covet God's power without taking away our ability to choose??

3. Why was Lucifer a serpent in the book of Genesis??

Non- Christian beliefs now, but still in a God territory

1. Art affects most people more than any medium, musicians, artists and filmmakers can become broken individuals just after the creation process begins. Does anyone think that maybe the creation factor involved in music, art, and film might have something to do with a possible God like Blueprint that we are some how related to??

[Scottch]

Meh -

Art really doesn't move me. Can anyone really give me art that moves me without knowing who I am?

I think I may be dead inside.

Scottch

[Complexity]

Spiderlandcapt - You deserve better beliefs. Don't settle for the ones you've got.

[Autolite]

Does anyone think that maybe the creation factor involved in music, art, and film might have something to do with a possible God like Blueprint that we are some how related to??

There might be a valid point here. Whenever I see one of those incredible "Dogs Playing Poker" masterpieces I just can't help but think that perhaps divine inspiration could have been a factor in their creation...

[Safe-Keeper]

This just occured to me... there are lots of people who say humans need to be able to rape or murder or whatever because otherwise free will is useless.

Why do these same people so readily accept that no one in Heaven rapes or murders? If rape and murder and warfare and terrorism are such necessary parts of free will and we'd be mindless drones if we didn't have them... why don't you want them in Paradise? Do you want to be what you consider to be a mindless drone for eternity?

Just boggles my mind how they say that there needs to be rape and murder in this world... and then turn around 180 degrees and say that this world is full of evil sin like rape and murder and that they can't wait to go to Heaven, because in Heaven there's neither rape nor murder.

[Nihilus]

1. If God created us to worship him, then how can he be perfect?
"Perfect" is a relative term. so the answer is always a "because he can" answer.

Doesn't got encompass all of the sins in the process of creating us?
Including the newly added 'Pollution' and 'Genetic Research' ones as well!

2. If Lucifer was able to covet God's position, how can it be possible for humans in heaven not to covet God's power without taking away our ability to choose??
You realize we are trying to extract logic from mythology, yes?

3. Why was Lucifer a serpent in the book of Genesis??
A unicorn would have been too corny?

Does anyone think that maybe the creation factor involved in music, art, and film might have something to do with a possible God like Blueprint that we are some how related to??
Okay. You lost me here. "God like Blueprint"?

Is there something else I'm missing here other than the whimsical connection of two creative processes? And to imply...what? Judeo-christian theism already accepts that human are supposedly made in the "image" of their deity.

[ehbowen]

I have made some explanations for the things I believe in and I also have some questions....


For the Christian beliefs

1. If God created us to worship him, then how can he be perfect? Doesn't got encompass all of the sins in the process of creating us?

2. If Lucifer was able to covet God's position, how can it be possible for humans in heaven not to covet God's power without taking away our ability to choose??

3. Why was Lucifer a serpent in the book of Genesis??


1. If a child brings home a perfect report card and the parent berates and belittles him for doing so, does the problem lie with the child or with the parent? Worship is nothing more or less than the inherent response to knowing and appreciating the attributes of God. God is great. He is good. He is powerful. He is creative. He is gracious. Once we recognize this, we cannot help but worship him. If we do not, it is not God's fault but our own.

2. If one is in the army as a colonel, but desires to be Commander in Chief, what paths are open to him? Study, serve, carry out your responsibilities diligently and faithfully and wait to be promoted to positions of greater responsibility in due time, or—coup d'etat. Just because Lucifer chose the latter does not mean that the former is closed. There is every reason to expect that God will give those who accept him as Sovereign a path to greater responsibility and power—perhaps even to the point of sharing ultimate power. The New Testament refers to believers in Heaven as being "kings and priests", after all. I don't believe this is metaphorical.

3. Don't know. Perhaps that was the only, or the easiest, way for a spiritual creature like Lucifer to interact with physical beings such as Adam and Eve.

[Nihilus]

God is great. He is good. He is powerful. He is creative. He is gracious. Once we recognize this, we cannot help but worship him. If we do not, it is not God's fault but our own.
Wrong. This 'god' himself created the predisposition in the individual to waver from "recognizing" that. If someone doesn't recognize it, 'god' knowingly created that person with the awareness they would falter.

It's the equivalent of knowing your child will be born with deformities, choosing to have him/her anyways and then berating that very child its entire life for not being "normal".

There is every reason to expect that God will give those who accept him as Sovereign a path to greater responsibility and power—perhaps even to the point of sharing ultimate power.
Every reason? Let's see...
The New Testament refers to believers in Heaven as being "kings and priests", after all. I don't believe this is metaphorical.
Ah. I see. "Every reason" is really just a clever translation of "I feel it to be so" that sounds more convincing.

[ehbowen]

This just occured to me... there are lots of people who say humans need to be able to rape or murder or whatever because otherwise free will is useless.

Why do these same people so readily accept that no one in Heaven rapes or murders? If rape and murder and warfare and terrorism are such necessary parts of free will and we'd be mindless drones if we didn't have them... why don't you want them in Paradise? Do you want to be what you consider to be a mindless drone for eternity?

Just boggles my mind how they say that there needs to be rape and murder in this world... and then turn around 180 degrees and say that this world is full of evil sin like rape and murder and that they can't wait to go to Heaven, because in Heaven there's neither rape nor murder.

Quite possibly because in God's sight the ultimate evil, the one which the entire cosmos is structured to make impossible, is the annihilation of a personality. Is Hell unpleasant? Yes, very much so. But better to exist alive and conscious in Hell than to be lost forever without any hope of recovery.

With that decision made, then how next to structure the universe? I believe that God's second priority is to make it possible (not easy, or certain—but possible) for each person to accomplish that which he or she most fervently desires. In Lucifer's case, I believe that this most fervent and intense desire was (free translation): "I want to hurt you, I want to hurt those you love, and I want to hurt those who love you." And so it is and has been possible, for a time, for Satan to hurt God (in the person of Jesus), those who love God, and those whom God loves.

For those who have been the victims of that hatred, whether from Satan in person or by proxy (rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc.), there is and will be generous compensation; 2 Corinthians 4. I am NOT saying that victims choose their fate, but I do think that once they see the BIG picture (which includes the compensation they receive, the eventual judgment and punishment of their oppressors, and the long-term triumph of good over evil), they will not seek to alter that particular branch of history any farther.

For those who are the oppressors, well, they will find that their choices have consequences. They WILL, eventually, seek to go back and undo the harm which they have caused. And I am convinced that God can and will make that possible; not by erasing the past but by going back in time and creating a new past in which they have the opportunity to alter their choices and their impact upon their former victims and the world at large. If one accepts the proposition that repetition "reinforces" a timeline and makes it "more real", than eventually this present and painful reality will seem to be, by comparison, no more real than a particularly vivid dream.

[spiderlandcapt]

Spiderlandcapt - You deserve better beliefs. Don't settle for the ones you've got.





What makes a belief better than another?? Are we searching for the truth here? Honestly?

Religion was created to explain things to the curious.

Parents don't train children to ask why, children ask why by nature.

[arthwollipot]

For those who are the oppressors, well, they will find that their choices have consequences. They WILL, eventually, seek to go back and undo the harm which they have caused.I'd be very careful about making such a claim...

[Wolfman]

I am NOT saying that victims choose their fate, but I do think that once they see the BIG picture (which includes the compensation they receive, the eventual judgment and punishment of their oppressors, and the long-term triumph of good over evil), they will not seek to alter that particular branch of history any farther.
Okay, I appreciate your beliefs...I used to have similar beliefs. And I don't think that any amount of argument is going to change your beliefs, no matter how ludicrous I think they are now.

However, in regards to this argument, even you must see the implicit self-contradiction involved.

You argue that one someone sees the "big picture", and realizes the judgment/punishment that will result from trying to oppose god, that they will not seek such a path any further.

Yet Lucifer, as one of the highest-ranking angels in Heaven, had far, far greater knowledge and proof of god's power than any human being ever has. The "big picture" that Lucifer had in front of him was far more comprehensive, far more obvious, and far more convincing than any "big picture" a human is ever going to have.

Yet, despite that, Lucifer rebelled.

So, given that, how on earth can you even try to argue that humans would do otherwise?

[ehbowen]

Okay, I appreciate your beliefs...I used to have similar beliefs. And I don't think that any amount of argument is going to change your beliefs, no matter how ludicrous I think they are now.

However, in regards to this argument, even you must see the implicit self-contradiction involved.

You argue that one someone sees the "big picture", and realizes the judgment/punishment that will result from trying to oppose god, that they will not seek such a path any further.

Yet Lucifer, as one of the highest-ranking angels in Heaven, had far, far greater knowledge and proof of god's power than any human being ever has. The "big picture" that Lucifer had in front of him was far more comprehensive, far more obvious, and far more convincing than any "big picture" a human is ever going to have.

Yet, despite that, Lucifer rebelled.

So, given that, how on earth can you even try to argue that humans would do otherwise?

Lucifer did rebel. It happened. It was not a dream, or an imagination, or a "what if?" He made a choice.

I believe that, in so many words, what precipitated that rebellion was the question, "What right do YOU have to tell ME what to do?" Framed that way, it becomes a question of right and wrong, not of strength and weakness. Of morality, and not power. God had to act—and God HAS acted—in a way which demonstrates moral superiority.

This is not to say that God has done everything perfectly at every step of the way. There are several choices that God has made in the past that he would, given the opportunity, have done differently had he known then what he knows now. But I am convinced that God accepts the responsibility for the choices he has made, and that there will be an alternate reality in which events proceed differently.

So why are we not experiencing THAT reality? The answer, I believe, was given on another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3466484#post3466484). I believe that Smackety has it exactly right, that God has not given Lucifer up as a lost cause, and that this present sequence of events is God's attempt to reach out and give Lucifer a chance to repent. By demonstrating moral superiority as well as responsibility for choices, God will be able—legally and morally—to hold Lucifer accountable for his actions.

I am under no illusion that Satan will, at this present juncture of events, fall down sobbing and say, "You were right and I was wrong." Correction: I believe that he MIGHT do that in order to evade punishment—juries love a good weepy act—but that it will be insincere. But after, say, a few dozen centuries of confinement—Alcatraz prison or its equivalent—followed by ten times longer mowing lawns or cleaning up doggy doo to earn compensation for his victims—[I]after all that, once the last penny is paid and he is free to go, if he does then make that admission, then I would be inclined to look upon it as genuine.

[ehbowen]

So, given that, how on earth can you even try to argue that humans would do otherwise?

If the ULTIMATE hard case can repent—and I believe he can, and will—the small fry will be easy pickings.

(Well, for some of those on THIS board...maybe not so easy!)

[Wolfman]

I am under no illusion that Satan will, at this present juncture of events, fall down sobbing and say, "You were right and I was wrong." Correction: I believe that he MIGHT do that in order to evade punishment—juries love a good weepy act—but that it will be insincere. But after, say, a few dozen centuries of confinement—Alcatraz prison or its equivalent—followed by ten times longer mowing lawns or cleaning up doggy doo to earn compensation for his victims—after all that, once the last penny is paid and he is free to go, if he does then make that admission, then I would be inclined to look upon it as genuine.Sorry, you are losing me here.

Are you claiming some sort of non-Biblical belief system? The Bible states quite unequivocally that Satan, and all those who follow him, will have no chance for repentance. So, either Satan will repent, and God will still refuse to forgive him (which directly contradicts everything the Bible says about repentance and forgiveness); or Satan will not repent, and your argument makes no sense whatsoever.
This is not to say that God has done everything perfectly at every step of the way. There are several choices that God has made in the past that he would, given the opportunity, have done differently had he known then what he knows now.Okay...you most definitely are not subscribing to a Biblical view of God. The Bible says, in very clear, undeniable terms, that God is omniscient...he knows everything. Also, God is not restrained by time, He can see the past, the present, and the future.

When he created Lucifer, he knew what the results would be. In fact, when he made every single decision, he knew what the results would be. The idea that God is in fact a fallible creature, ignorant of the results of his actions, fits better with the Greek or Roman gods than the Christian god.

Rather curious that you accept the Biblical account of Lucifer as an absolute, undeniable fact...yet apparently reject entirely the Biblical account about God's nature. A Bible that is more accurate regarding Satan than regarding God? Would that not serve as an argument that the Bible was actually written by Satan, and not God?

[ehbowen]

Sorry, you are losing me here.

Are you claiming some sort of non-Biblical belief system? The Bible states quite unequivocally that Satan, and all those who follow him, will have no chance for repentance. So, either Satan will repent, and God will still refuse to forgive him (which directly contradicts everything the Bible says about repentance and forgiveness); or Satan will not repent, and your argument makes no sense whatsoever.

Or, the prophecies of judgment in Revelation are conditional—as prophecies of judgment always are; Jeremiah 18:7-8.

To my thinking, if the Four Horsemen and the Apocalypse were the very BEST that God could do, it could have happened any time between about, oh, 70 AD and today. I think that God sees a better alternative. I think that Peter had it exactly right (2 Peter 3:9); God sees a way for ALL to come to repentance...and he has not given up on that possibility.


Okay...you most definitely are not subscribing to a Biblical view of God. The Bible says, in very clear, undeniable terms, that God is omniscient...he knows everything. Also, God is not restrained by time, He can see the past, the present, and the future.

When he created Lucifer, he knew what the results would be. In fact, when he made every single decision, he knew what the results would be. The idea that God is in fact a fallible creature, ignorant of the results of his actions, fits better with the Greek or Roman gods than the Christian god.

Rather curious that you accept the Biblical account of Lucifer as an absolute, undeniable fact...yet apparently reject entirely the Biblical account about God's nature. A Bible that is more accurate regarding Satan than regarding God? Would that not serve as an argument that the Bible was actually written by Satan, and not God?

You need to learn to think fourth-dimensionally. Actually, four dimensions doesn't do it; you need multiple time dimensions of which linear time, as we observe it, is the LAST dimension.

Picture two entities, BOTH of which transcend time, locked in combat. Whenever one makes a move which the other considers a threat, that other can "reach back" even farther into time and attempt to reshape events in his favor. How would one reach a resolution?

[Note: I am not arguing dualism here; I'm not saying that Satan is inherently equal to God. I'm saying that Satan's most cherished desire [post 9 above] is to be like God. If God creates a world and a reality where that becomes possible—and Satan STILL loses—then he has lost utterly.]

Assume a sequence of events occurs. One of the combatants doesn't like the direction things are headed. He reaches back in time to create a new sequence of events. The new sequence can a) diverge completely from the old; b) diverge temporarily but eventually reconverge; or c) completely parallel the original, foundational sequence of events.

I believe that by this point God has gained such an advantage over Satan that there is nothing that Satan can do to cause events to diverge. He tries, repeatedly, hitting the "Undo" key over and over and over again, and each time events continue to play out the same way. All God has to do is stand there with a big smile until Satan finally gives up.

That, BTW, is how omniscience and free will are compatible. In each iteration, we have complete libertarian free will to make any choice which is open to us. But after a few billion of those iterations, in which for the last billion or so there has been no change in conditions above the Planck level, it becomes fairly obvious to any impartial observer what choices we will make next—because we have made them ten billion times before. Think the Bill Murray character in the movie Groundhog Day.

I can expand on this, but later. I need to try to get some sleep.

[Wolfman]

ehbowen,

Thanks so much for the lesson in temporal physics; I'm well familiar with such arguments, although more from science fiction than from religion.

The Bible states, quite unequivocally, that when God created the universe, and man, that He already knew what was going to happen. That is the nature of omniscience.

By your definition of omniscience, a mere human being who was able to find a way to travel backwards in time would become equal in power to God. They could, just like God, go backwards in time and change things that they didn't like, then go forwards and check the results, continuing this process over and over until they got the results they wanted. This has nothing whatsoever to do with omniscience.

The Bible presents God as infallible. You present God as pretty much a bumbling stooge who doesn't have a freakin' clue what he is doing, and has to use an infinite supply of "do-overs" in order to make things work.

I have problems understanding why people would want to follow the God in the Bible -- but at least that God claims to know what he is doing. I honestly cannot understand what the appeal of your god would be.

I think you've provided amazing fodder for a really good science fiction story; a story about a minor god somewhere out in the universe who sets about creating a new world, but who keeps botching it up. He then slips backwards in time, and fixes it up...but only to discover that now there are new problems as a result of the old changes. It would be quite a comedic adventure of discovery.

Or one could turn it from a comedy, into a tragedy...by focusing not on the god's adventures, but on the lives of the people who must suffer over and over again through his mistakes and botch-ups, whose main prayer to their god ends up being, "Please, please get it right this time!!"

Heck...I wouldn't be surprised if it was a similar process of thought that led L. Ron Hubbard to founding Scientology.

[HawaiiBigSis]

<snip>
I think you've provided amazing fodder for a really good science fiction story; a story about a minor god somewhere out in the universe who sets about creating a new world, but who keeps botching it up. He then slips backwards in time, and fixes it up...but only to discover that now there are new problems as a result of the old changes. It would be quite a comedic adventure of discovery.

Pastwatch, by Orson Scott Card

[Wolfman]

Pastwatch, by Orson Scott CardOkay...so its already been done...

...but he didn't turn it into a worldwide religion, did he? :D

[autumn1971]

Nit to pick, but Lucifer does not appear in the Bible, at least not mine, and for the vast majority of the Bible, Satan is not presented as evil, but as one whom god allows to play devil's advocate, pardon the pun.

[Darth Rotor]

I'd be very careful about making such a claim...
Rumor has it Stalin never lost a night's sleep, and Tamberlane was said to have slept very well.

Sources are pre interweb days, so that's all I can offer.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

For the Christian beliefs

1. If God created us to worship him, then how can he be perfect?
1.a.

Is that the sole purpose for creation? Was no mirth, entertainment, and just plain humor in the mix?

1.b. The two are not mutually exclusive, as prefection is an abstraction for man, and a state of being for God. You are looking through the human lens. If you ever get to the other end of the binoculars, and see it from there, please let us know how it looks.

A lot of people are interested.
Doesn't got encompass all of the sins in the process of creating us?
It's sin when humans do it, it's what it is when God does it.

You got a problem with that?

Go tell God you are upset, and see how far it gets you.
2. If Lucifer was able to covet God's position, how can it be possible for humans in heaven not to covet God's power without taking away our ability to choose??
When they get to heaven, they are no longer human (if standard Christian convention is the baseline here) having become pure spirit. Coveting is a byproduct of fleshy existence. Coveting as an assumption is not valid for heaven, though it might take on a new form in that context

You seem to have woven a bit of a non sequitur: Lucifer was not human, but made more like the mostly spirit beings than the humans. Legend has it he was the first among the angels, which is a class of created beings different from humans.
3. Why was Lucifer a serpent in the book of Genesis??
I thought he was more the Lounge Lizard.

Which translation are you reading?
Non- Christian beliefs now, but still in a God territory

1. Art affects most people more than any medium, musicians, artists and filmmakers can become broken individuals just after the creation process begins. Does anyone think that maybe the creation factor involved in music, art, and film might have something to do with a possible God like Blueprint that we are some how related to??
Would you care to rephrase that question? It's a jumble.

I'll give it a try, anyway, thanks to your good faith effort with your post.
Art affects most people more than any medium.
It does? Mybe so. If you make art broad enough as a category, you get the majority of symbolic influences on people, and there you are, a nice generalization that doesn't do much good.
Musicians, artists and film makers can become broken individuals just after the creation process begins.
Also after divorce, a binge, a car wreck, nine months snorting coke, and so on. You seem to be making a non connecting, non point here. The thread I am grasping at is the act of creation being internally destructive.
Does anyone think that maybe the creation factor involved in music, art, and film might have something to do with a possible God like Blueprint that we are some how related to??
Following your second sentence, the creative process can lead to the creator breaking. I will guess you think the act of Creation broke God.

Am I close?

Here's a parallel thought.

God of gaps, Big Bang as creation, and so on.

SciAm had an article recently on how, in 10 to 100 billion years, with the universe expanding, aas it seems to be, no one will be able to use EM and speed of light limited equipment to see the same phenomenon as we do now. In that time, the evidence we discuss in the here and now about tracking back to Big Bang will be gone. Even more interesting, all of what we as a race have uncovered is less than the whole evidence there ever was, what with universe expanding.

One is left to wonder what, in the last five to ten billion years, has been lost to human observation and catalogued accumulation of knowledge since the Big Bang, or whatever started things, or this cycle, or this bubble, or what it was that made it what it is.

Is that what you mean by God Breaking? He made it and can't go back and make he and it One again?

Or did I completely miss in my guess at your meaning?

If God is broken, who has the glue to put him back together again?

Is Humpty Dumpty the ultimate cosmological and theological cosmic metaphor?

DR

[spiderlandcapt]

I don't believe in God, but I believe in the possibility of God.

The idea of Lucifer defying God authority just goes to show how we could just as easily defy his authority as well.



I don't think the idea of God creating us, but destroying himself in the process is an implausible idea. It is just one of the many possibilities.

[Jon.]

Lucifer did rebel. It happened. It was not a dream, or an imagination, or a "what if?" He made a choice.



You do realize, don't you, that there is absolutely no Biblical support for this? Lucifer's rebellion, being cast down with his fallen angels to lie beside the lake of fire, and create his own city (Pandemonium) - it's all made up by John Milton.

AFAIK, Paradise Lost is not one of the books of the Bible. At least, not yet.

[arthwollipot]

You need to learn to think fourth-dimensionally. Actually, four dimensions doesn't do it; you need multiple time dimensions of which linear time, as we observe it, is the LAST dimension.Please define what "LAST" means in this context. What order do dimensions go in? Is it variable? which dimension is "FIRST"? What dimension is "SECOND"? What determines the "order" in which dimensions are considered?

[Radrook]

I have made some explanations for the things I believe in and I also have some questions....


For the Christian beliefs

1. If God created us to worship him, then how can he be perfect?

How, in your view, does his requirements for morally right conduct make him imperfect?


Doesn't god encompass all of the sins in the process of creating us?

Encompass?


2. If Lucifer was able to covet God's position, how can it be possible for humans in heaven not to covet God's power without taking away our ability to choose??

Who said it was impossible? If it happened before it can happen again. The only difference is that once the Edenic issues are resolved the rebel can be removed immediately instead of allowing time for issue-resolution as occurred with the first human/angel rebellion.

3. Why was Lucifer a serpent in the book of Genesis??

That was the animal he chose to use as a puppet.


Non- Christian beliefs now, but still in a God territory

1. Art affects most people more than any medium, musicians, artists and filmmakers can become broken individuals just after the creation process begins.

Is that a fact? I am a musician, poet, digital artist, novelist, short story writer, and I have never felt that the creative process has an inevitable breaking effect. But then again that might just be me. Do you have statistical data indicating a positive correlation between the twain?

BTW
Not saying that it can't. Obviously the chosen subject- matter can be the determining factor.



Does anyone think that maybe the creation factor involved in music, art, and film might have something to do with a possible God like Blueprint that we are some how related to??

Being made in his image obviously includes art appreciation However, as in all other things since the fall, art appreciation has become subject to perversion which is manifested in many immoral ways.

[Beerina]

Worship is nothing more or less than the inherent response to knowing and appreciating the attributes of God. God is great. He is good. He is powerful. He is creative. He is gracious. Once we recognize this, we cannot help but worship him. If we do not, it is not God's fault but our own.

I will never worship a being that allows an 8 day old baby to be raped to death, or a 9 year old girl to be kidnapped, raped, then wrapped in plastic and given a teddy bear to comfort her as she is buried alive.

Never. I don't care what chain of importance I can't comprehend God seeks to explain his inaction with. That is not a creature I could ever worship.

[ehbowen]

I will never worship a being that allows an 8 day old baby to be raped to death, or a 9 year old girl to be kidnapped, raped, then wrapped in plastic and given a teddy bear to comfort her as she is buried alive.

Never. I don't care what chain of importance I can't comprehend God seeks to explain his inaction with. That is not a creature I could ever worship.

Philippians 2:9: Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please! In this corner we have Beerina, who states that under NO circumstances WHATSOEVER would she ever worship the God of the Hebrews and/or his son, Jesus Christ. In the far corner we have the Apostle Paul, who states that eventually EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. Place your bets now, people—the match begins in fifteen minutes!

(My money is on the Apostle Paul.)

[Gate2501]

Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please! In this corner we have Beerina, who states that under NO circumstances WHATSOEVER would she ever worship the God of the Hebrews and/or his son, Jesus Christ. In the far corner we have the Apostle Paul, who states that eventually EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. Place your bets now, people—the match begins in fifteen minutes!

(My money is on the Apostle Paul.)

If Beerina's avatar is taken into account, I must say that Duke Nukem would probably take the apostles and Jesus Christ out all at once. Considering we are both talking about magical pretend superpowers and superbeings, this seems fair. Jesus can even have his goofy healing powers from the Christian Mythos.

Try healing when 90% of your body is filled with smoking lead from a chain gun and you just lost your legs to a trip mine!

In other news. I demand to know when Duke Nukem Forever will be released.

[arthwollipot]

Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please! In this corner we have Beerina, who states that under NO circumstances WHATSOEVER would she ever worship the God of the Hebrews and/or his son, Jesus Christ. In the far corner we have the Apostle Paul, who states that eventually EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. Place your bets now, people—the match begins in fifteen minutes!

(My money is on the Apostle Paul.)Well, I'll see your Apostle Paul and raise you one Saint John. Revelations, 7:4. Look it up.

[Jekyll]

In other news. I demand to know when Duke Nukem Forever will be released.
Judgement day is still looking more likely to come first.

[billydkid]

Speaking of art in the broad sense - I used to feel it and experience it as the highest order of the expression of being human, but I lost that somehow. It's something I don't entirely understand. Things I used to "get" I don't get anymore.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Quite possibly because in God's sight the ultimate evil, the one which the entire cosmos is structured to make impossible, is the annihilation of a personality. Is Hell unpleasant? Yes, very much so. But better to exist alive and conscious in Hell than to be lost forever without any hope of recovery.

With that decision made, then how next to structure the universe? I believe that God's second priority is to make it possible (not easy, or certain—but possible) for each person to accomplish that which he or she most fervently desires. In Lucifer's case, I believe that this most fervent and intense desire was (free translation): "I want to hurt you, I want to hurt those you love, and I want to hurt those who love you." And so it is and has been possible, for a time, for Satan to hurt God (in the person of Jesus), those who love God, and those whom God loves.

For those who have been the victims of that hatred, whether from Satan in person or by proxy (rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc.), there is and will be generous compensation; 2 Corinthians 4. I am NOT saying that victims choose their fate, but I do think that once they see the BIG picture (which includes the compensation they receive, the eventual judgment and punishment of their oppressors, and the long-term triumph of good over evil), they will not seek to alter that particular branch of history any farther.

For those who are the oppressors, well, they will find that their choices have consequences. They WILL, eventually, seek to go back and undo the harm which they have caused. And I am convinced that God can and will make that possible; not by erasing the past but by going back in time and creating a new past in which they have the opportunity to alter their choices and their impact upon their former victims and the world at large. If one accepts the proposition that repetition "reinforces" a timeline and makes it "more real", than eventually this present and painful reality will seem to be, by comparison, no more real than a particularly vivid dream.Everyone will see. Just wait. Everyone is going to see I was right. And some of them are going to be sorry. Yes sir, they'll be sorry. Just wait....


NOT.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, I'll see your Apostle Paul and raise you one Saint John. Revelations, 7:4. Look it up.For those that want to take advantage of my efforts, I looked it up in The Sceptic's Annotated Bible: (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rev/7_4.html)Rev.7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Few Christians take the 144,000 number seriously, of course. But the JWs do. Boy do they ever! They believe that there are two distinct classes of believers: the 144,000 "Anointed" that are going to heaven and the "Great Crowd" that will remain here on earth. The WatchTower teaches that heaven closed in 1935, and that everyone else will either be killed at Armageddon (if they are not JWs) or live forever on earth.

[Pardalis]

Non- Christian beliefs now, but still in a God territory

1. Art affects most people more than any medium, musicians, artists and filmmakers can become broken individuals just after the creation process begins. Does anyone think that maybe the creation factor involved in music, art, and film might have something to do with a possible God like Blueprint that we are some how related to??


I think there's certainly something "numinous" about certain works of art, I've felt it only a few times (the end of "Fellini's Casanova" or a chapter in Dostoïevsky's "The Idiot", or the first time i saw John Everett Millais' "Ophelia" for example) and that's what I try to attempt in my own work but haven't reached it yet. Alot of artists try to recreate that feeling all their lives. It's like a transcending moment that makes you feel you have touched something essential, so I can understand why some people think they have seen "god's blueprint" in such works.

But I don't jump to the conclusion that it's something from God, I think it's more of a personal thing, maybe other people don't feel the same thing, it could depend on each person's sensibilities, even culture or personality. It's a personal experience of wholeness, of a complete and meaningful work that speaks to you in a way nothing else does. It's more a blueprint of yourself that you see. I'm totally aware of the subjectivity of that moment.

Maybe there are some chemicals in the brain involved during that instant when you feel that numen, like an addiction but it's far better than using drugs, and you don't get sick trying to reproduce that experience.

[Radrook]

Nit to pick, but Lucifer does not appear in the Bible, at least not mine,

Isaiah 14:12 King James Version
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Other translations that include it are:

Darby Translation
Jerome's Vulgate translation
New King James Version
21st Century King James Version

....and for the vast majority of the Bible, Satan is not presented as evil, but as one whom god allows to play devil's advocate, pardon the pun.

That's a misrepresentation what the Bible teaches which leads me to believe that you haven't read it and are basing your erroneous assumption on maybe your personal interpretation of one solitary scripture. Anyone who reads the Bible will see that Satan the Devil is spoken of as God's enemy and the adversary of all those who desire to do God's will. He is spoken of as a liar, murderer, deceiver, and dedicated persecutor of God's servants. We are told repeatedly to beware of his machinations, to be on guard against his constant attacks on our spirituality. The scriptures are too numereous to post but below are a few chosen examples.


John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Mark 5:18
And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

Matthew 4:1
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Matthew 4:1-3 (in Context)

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison,

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Matthew 8:16
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

========================================
Bolding Mine

BTW
Devils refers to those angels who joined Satan in his rebellion. Further scriptures showing clearly that your idea is wrong can be found at:

Bible Gateway
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=Devil&searchtype=all&version1=9&spanbegin=1&spanend=73

[HawaiiBigSis]

Everyone will see. Just wait. Everyone is going to see I was right. And some of them are going to be sorry. Yes sir, they'll be sorry. Just wait....


NOT.
I don't see that there's much choice BUT to wait.

Few Christians take the 144,000 number seriously, of course. But the JWs do. Boy do they ever! They believe that there are two distinct classes of believers: the 144,000 "Anointed" that are going to heaven and the "Great Crowd" that will remain here on earth. The WatchTower teaches that heaven closed in 1935, and that everyone else will either be killed at Armageddon (if they are not JWs) or live forever on earth.
And I've never understood why there's any point in soliciting membership in the JW clique. There's got to be over 144K worthy souls at this point; what on earth makes a person think that they'll get a place on the list and bump somebody off?

Oh yeah, the holier-than-thou mentality.

Furthermore, I get really irate when African-American JWs show up on my doorstep. When I was first indoctrinated into the JW belief system (in about 1963 or so) people with any hint of brown in their skin were NEVER going to get into heaven, no how, no way. I don't know what changed in the past 45 years, but I always want to ask the black proslytizer why on earth they want to be part of an organization that shunned them in their parents' lifetimes.

[Radrook]

And I've never understood why there's any point in soliciting membership in the JW clique. There's got to be over 144K worthy souls at this point; what on earth makes a person think that they'll get a place on the list and somebody off?

Because they have the hope of living on a paradise earth like most other persons who joined the organization during the time period you claim to have joined it. In fact, that most Christians will live on a paradise earthg is basic teaching of JWs. So if you don't know the answer to that simple question then you were obviously never a member of that religious organization.

BTW

Not soliciting.
Was Jesus soliciting? Were the Apostles?


Not indoctrinating:
Teaching people via free Bible studies in order to familarize them with the Gospel.

Furthermore, I get really irate when African-American JWs show up on my doorstep. When I was first indoctrinated into the JW belief system (in about 1963 or so) people with any hint of brown in their skin were NEVER going to get into heaven, no how, no way. I don't know what changed in the past 45 years, but I always want to ask the black proslytizer why on earth they want to be part of an organization that shunned them in their parents' lifetimes.

During my membership at the same time you mention, I personally met two Afro American individuals who had the heavenly hope or were part of the 144000. Not once was skin color mentioned as relevant to salvation. Neither can you find such a teaching in any of their literature. In short, you are just making things up.

BTW

A bit of friendly advice: Stating legitimate gripes would lead to a viable discussion. As it is all you are doing is destroying your own credibility and setting yourself up as a candidate for
ignore lists.

[qayak]

Is Hell unpleasant? Yes, very much so.

How do you know? Have you been there and seen it? Are you relying on the words of men who wrote the bible but never saw hell themselves?

[HawaiiBigSis]

Because they have the hope of living on a paradise earth like most other persons who joined the organization during the time period you claim to have joined it. In fact, that most Christians will live on a paradise earthg is basic teaching of JWs. So if you don't know the answer to that simple question then you were obviously never a member of that religious organization.
I never claimed to be a member of that religious organization. I was present many times during "bible study" held at a friend's of my parents' house. Since the friends of my parents' were exceedingly concerned about the welfare of my everlasting soul, I would consider the teaching I was subjected to as indoctrination.

BTW

Not soliciting.
Was Jesus soliciting? Were the Apostles?

Not indoctrinating:
Teaching people via free Bible studies in order to familarize them with the Gospel.
I consider soliciting what the people who come to my door do. In exchange for something they offer, they want something from me. That's solicitation.

During my membership at the same time you mention, I personally met two Afro American individuals who had the heavenly hope or were part of the 144000. Not once was skin color mentioned as relevant to salvation. Neither can you find such a teaching in any of their literature. In short, you are just making things up.
In the kitchen of the parents' friends, I was told point-blank that only people who were white would be allowed into their heaven. This was considered a selling point of their paradise. It might be different in other parts of the world, but in the kitchen of those particular practitioners, it was a salient point of the religion as it was told to me. You don't score any points for calling me a liar.

BTW

A bit of friendly advice: Stating legitimate gripes would lead to a viable discussion. As it is all you are doing is destroying your own credibility and setting yourself up as a candidate for ignore lists.
In my opinion, a paradise composed of only white people -- or only of any single group of people -- has absolutely no appeal to me. As the religion was presented to me by those people at that time, it represents a legitimate gripe in my opinion.

Furthermore, your opinion of my credibility has absolutely no stature for me. You may ignore me to your heart's content.

[Radrook]

I never claimed to be a member of that religious organization. I was present many times during "bible study" held at a friend's of my parents' house. Since the friends of my parents' were exceedingly concerned about the welfare of my everlasting soul, I would consider the teaching I was subjected to as indoctrination.

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in an everlasting immortal soul doctrine.


I consider soliciting what the people who come to my door do. In exchange for something they offer, they want something from me. That's solicitation.

What did they want from you?


In the kitchen of the parents' friends, I was told point-blank that only people who were white would be allowed into their heaven. This was considered a selling point of their paradise. It might be different in other parts of the world, but in the kitchen of those particular practitioners, it was a salient point of the religion as it was told to me. You don't score any points for calling me a liar.

I know of no Christian religion in existence that has taught or teaches such a thing. I am not denying that the people you heard in that kitchen said those things. But if they did they were neither representing Christianity nor the official policy of JWs. Since that's the case, I think it's unfair to use that experience as representative of what that religious organization approves of or teaches. That's all I am saying. It's like my hearing someone say they are Catholics, hearing them misrepresent what Catholics believe and then going n the Internet saying that is what Catholics believe, It isn't fair.


In my opinion, a paradise composed of only white people -- or only of any single group of people -- has absolutely no appeal to me. As the religion was presented to me by those people at that time, it represents a legitimate gripe in my opinion.

I would have the same gripe as you if it had been presented in that way. Why were you present so many times if their attitude was bothering you that much?


Furthermore, your opinion of my credibility has absolutely no stature for me. You may ignore me to your heart's content.

My apologies for any offense given due to my misunderstanding of the real situation. However, please note that the things you say are not applicable to JWS.

BTW
I like that blue color text!

[Complexity]

You need to learn to think fourth-dimensionally. Actually, four dimensions doesn't do it; you need multiple time dimensions of which linear time, as we observe it, is the LAST dimension.


Bago, is that you?


I can expand on this, but later. I need to try to get some sleep.


Dude, sleep isn't going to fix what's wrong with you.

What utter garbage.

Get thee to a shrubbery.

[Radrook]

Actually, I do know that the LDS once taught something negative in relation to the descendants of Ham and certain privileges were denied his descendants. Perhaps the person is confusing this group-which also teaches in the homes, with the Witnesses? In any case, their views on race have been modified since then.

[HawaiiBigSis]

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in an everlasting immortal soul doctrine.
I guess I don't see a big difference between promising somebody paradise after death and an "everlasting immortal soul doctrine." Seems like varieties of vanilla to me...

What did they want from you?
My name on their list of "saved" souls?

I know of no Christian religion in existence that has taught or teaches such a thing. I am not denying that the people you heard in that kitchen said those things. But if they did they were neither representing Christianity nor the official policy of JWs. Since that's the case, I think it's unfair to use that experience as representative of what that religious organization approves of or teaches. That's all I am saying. It's like my hearing someone say they are Catholics, hearing them misrepresent what Catholics believe and then going n the Internet saying that is what Catholics believe, It isn't fair.
It was the the most thorough exposure I had to JW. If it was non-standard, then it was non-standard, but it was what they taught at that time and place.

I would have the same gripe as you if it had been presented in that way. Why were you present so many times if their attitude was bothering you that much?
I was a young and obedient child. I was told to sit, I sat. I was told to listen, I listened. I was forbidden to ask questions, I didn't ask questions (of them). They forgot to order me to think their way. (And, even if they had, I likely would have unthunk their views soon enough. I abandoned plenty other thoughts along the way.)

Because I was young, I had not yet learned that living among only people who look the same as me was as awful as I found it to be when I got older. I was not raised in a racist household, and I saw plenty people with dark skin (I lived in the greater Los Angeles area). I was plenty familiar with racism, I just didn't understand it. That's part of why I know that's what was being taught, because it was such a foreign concept to me, even as a young person.

My apologies for any offense given due to my misunderstanding of the real situation. However, please note that the things you say are not applicable to JWS.
Or the JWs you're familiar with.

Actually, I do know that the LDS once taught something negative in relation to the descendants of Ham and certain privileges were denied his descendants. Perhaps the person is confusing this group-which also teaches in the homes, with the Witnesses? In any case, their views on race have been modified since then.
Sorry, Radrook, I know the difference between JW and LDS. And what my parent's friends taught all those years ago was definitely JW. I grew up with many LDS friends, and encountered similar beliefs in them. But I have never been approached by a black LDS proslytizer, which was what started this conversation.

[AkuManiMani]

There might be a valid point here. Whenever I see one of those incredible "Dogs Playing Poker" masterpieces I just can't help but think that perhaps divine inspiration could have been a factor in their creation...

Don't mock the Poker Dogs. That painting is an act of sublime genius :p

[Radrook]

I guess I don't see a big difference between promising somebody paradise after death and an "everlasting immortal soul doctrine." Seems like varieties of vanilla to me...

JWs aren't authorized to promise anyone anything. Only to inform others of what might be within their reach if they gain and maintain God's approval. In fact, they are fond of quoting the scriptures which says that only those who endure till the end will be saved.

The immortal soul doctrine teaches that an immortal soul was introduced into a human body and that it is indestructible. JWS teach that man himself became a soul and that souls are destroyable.


My name on their list of "saved" souls?

They have no such lists because they don't consider anyone saved until the person has endured till the end.


It was the the most thorough exposure I had to JW. If it was non-standard, then it was non-standard, but it was what they taught at that time and place.


Non-standard is not what you are describing. What you are describing is totally alien to JWs teachings. In fact, if the persons involved would have been accused and found guilty of teaching what you describe-they would have been disfellowshipped since that kind of behavior isn't tolerated. Believe me-I should know. I was once a fully-dedicated, baptized member as well as a weekly Bible-study conductor [as it was referred to then] in the organization. .

I was a young and obedient child. I was told to sit, I sat. I was told to listen, I listened. I was forbidden to ask questions, I didn't ask questions (of them). They forgot to order me to think their way. (And, even if they had, I likely would have unthunk their views soon enough. I abandoned plenty other thoughts along the way.)

They didn't forget. It simply isn't the Christian way to suggest much less order others to do anything against their will.


Because I was young, I had not yet learned that living among only people who look the same as me was as awful as I found it to be when I got older. I was not raised in a racist household, and I saw plenty people with dark skin (I lived in the greater Los Angeles area). I was plenty familiar with racism, I just didn't understand it. That's part of why I know that's what was being taught, because it was such a foreign concept to me, even as a young person.

All the JWS I associated with in NY City for the first four years after I was baptized as a JW were African Americans. Neither they nor the literature put forth the ideas you mention.

Then I associated with white JWs in Chicago for three years. Studied with them, preached with them, attended meetings with them, studied regularly with them. Again, never was such a policy ever mentioned nor that attitude displayed.

BTW

I am thoroughly familiar with JWs historical development and neither are the things you mentioned found there either.

Or the JWs you're familiar with.

Sorry but I am thoroughly familiar with the organization and its members and your description just doesn't any approved JW teaching nor is the conduct an approved anywhere within the organization.


Sorry, Radrook, I know the difference between JW and LDS. And what my parent's friends taught all those years ago was definitely JW. I grew up with many LDS friends, and encountered similar beliefs in them. But I have never been approached by a black LDS proselytizer, which was what started this conversation.

He might have CLAIMED to be. But I am convinced by what you say that he wasn't.

[Kopji]

I have made some explanations for the things I believe in and I also have some questions....

smart people!!! LOL...


For the Christian beliefs

1. If God created us to worship him, then how can he be perfect? Doesn't got [God] encompass all of the sins in the process of creating us?

to the first '?'
A better religious idea is that creativity is simply part of God's nature. God created us because that is a Godlike thing to do. God does not need our worship. Since we are a created thing, we cannot approach the meaning of 'perfect' the way God knows it. A deeper question to explore might be where the notion of 'our purpose' comes from. If God created us because he is something of a great cosmic artist, 'why?' is like asking what the purpose of a work of art is, if it had a purpose, how would you know it without asking the artist? Why not just live and be thankful?

sin
A better working definition for sin is 'separation from God'. Being good is like aiming for the bullseye on a target that we cannot never hit without God's help.


2. If Lucifer was able to covet God's position, how can it be possible for humans in heaven not to covet God's power without taking away our ability to choose??

The bit about Lucifer seems confused, personally I think it is mistranslation. But anyway, consider that everything needs an opposition or adversary. How can we know or appreciate the light if there is no darkness? And so in a sense, light and dark are part of the same thing. God is not evil for being the source of darkness, if without the darkness we could not know light.

Consider that free will or choice, if it exists, takes place at certain axial points in our existence, but not at others. The idea is that in heaven the denizens have already freely chosen something, and likewise in hell.


3. Why was Lucifer a serpent in the book of Genesis??

The idea is that when you partake of knowledge, you displace God. That actually, seems like maybe the one accurate concept in Genesis. As you know more, God has a smaller and smaller place to exist, less and less influence. That is probably bad if you are supposed to believe in God.


Non- Christian beliefs now, but still in a God territory

1. Art affects most people more than any medium, musicians, artists and filmmakers can become broken individuals just after the creation process begins. Does anyone think that maybe the creation factor involved in music, art, and film might have something to do with a possible God like Blueprint that we are some how related to??

Consider that we evolved as social animals, not solitary individuals. Abstract or irrational thinking probably has survival skills that when used in a community setting in conjunction with plain old reasoning - helped us live better lives. Art and music could have naturally risen as a byproduct of learning to think differently. Even things like courage and honor are not completely 'rational' ideas, but we would consider them indispensable. So why could not this idea of an ultimate entity be part of this kind of thinking too? 'God' could be an idea born of the same processes that art and music come from.

As to the idea of artist broken-ness, without a shattering of old ideas how can new ones be born? For an artist, a response should be to embrace the 'shattering' - it is something natural that is a source of new inspiration rather than being an obstacle. Be different. Dance. Sing. Draw.