Best Modern Fantasy and SF

[Uzzy]

Hello there.

I've been looking for good books in my two favourite genres, Fantasy and Science Fiction, ever since I finished A Feast for Crows. I've been floundering between various short books for a few months now, and I want a weighty series to get my teeth into. The problem is that most of the new books coming out in those two genres tend to be multi 1000 page book epic series. So, I don't particularly want to invest a large amount of time testing one of these books if it turns out to be poor later on.

So, can you guys suggest any good series for me to check out? I'm open to any type of books set in those two genres. Additionally, does anyone know if a Rotten Tomatoes type site exists for novels? I would be very interested in looking at one. Thanks in advance.

[Morrigan]

If you liked A Song of Ice and Fire... well, I'm sorry, you won't find anything quite as good. :) But I can always recommend Robin Hobb's works: the Farseer trilogy (first book is "Assassin's Apprentice") followed by the Liveship Traders trilogy, and then the Tawny Man trilogy, in this order. Yes it is nine books, all set in the same world, but it is a finished series, so there is that.

If nine books daunt you, try perhaps "Memory, Sorrow & Thorn" by Tad Williams. 3 books (or four if you consider the last volume as two, since the paperback was split into two tomes). Though I prefer his sci-fi (with cyberpunk influences) opus, Otherland, myself.

For sci-fi, I strongly recommend you read Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion by Dan Simmons. I haven't read the other two after, but the first two provide enough closure. Anyway, it's probably the most ambitious and epic fantasy I've ever read... and yes, I'm including Dune in there.

Have you tried reading GRRM's other stuff? His standalone horror novel Fevre Dream is especially good. His sci-fi novel, Dying of the Light, is also pretty cool, but I didn't like it as much as the rest.

I would recommend The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch, but the truth is that it goes against what you ask for, since a) it's an unfinished series and b) I only read the first one so I don't know if it will get poor later on. The first volume is especially good, though.

[RandomJSF]

I will recommend the sci-fi works of C.J. Cherryh to just about anybody who asks. Unfortunately, not everybody likes her style, especially in the way she wrote the Foreigner saga... If you require constant action to keep you interested, then C.J. Cherryh, and in particular the Foreigner books, are not for you.

That being said, the Foreigner books are among the best I've had the pleasure to read. The books are almost entirely political intrigue, with some action thrown in. It is difficult to explain the idea behind the story, as it is very complex... But I'll do my best.

The books are written (for all but the occasional chapters) from the view of a single human, who is the only human allowed to live amongst the atevi, the alien species featured in the books. The atevi are humanoid, but the similarities tend to end there: The atevi think entirely in numbers, for instance, so much so that their very lives are governed by them. Assassination is a legal institution, as long as you file Intent with the Assassin's Guild to obtain their permission before carrying out the assassination attempt. The differences go on and on, and that's rather the point of the story... The main theme is that of the attempt this single human, who is the ambassador for all of humanity to the atevi, to understand the people he's living with.

It's much more complicated than that, but as I said, it's a bit hard to explain... Also, the series is at 9 books presently (three trilogies), and while Cherryh could have left any of the trilogies off and effectively called it the end of the series, she always leaves a bit more open for the next set of books... So it's presently an ongoing series.

I would also highly recommend Modesitt's Corean Chronicles, the first book being Legacies. This series (six books long, actually two trilogies) is an interesting mix between fantasy and sci-fi settings. To paint a general picture, imagine a world where cavalry is still the major force on the battlefield, the primary weapons are guns (with cartridges, not muzzle-loaders) for long range and sabres for close range, then mix magic in. The series gets more sci-fi in the second trilogy, which is a prequel to the original trilogy. It's definitely more fantasy-based, but it's certainly not medieval fantasy.

The Corean Chronicles also have a MUCH larger amount of action than the Foreigner books... There were a couple of points where I was so riveted to the action in the 5th and 6th books that I would skip ahead a chapter to read the action, then come back to read the few pages of dialogue that preceded it, heh.

Also, the ending for the final book, Soarer's Choice, is quite possibly the most satisfying ending to a series I've ever read.

~~ RandomJSF (at work and a bit tired)

[Zalbik]

You may want to try Stephen Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series...but be warned, it's not for everyone.

It's very graphic, he dumps you right into the action, there's a heck of a lot of characters and backstory, and the characters are virtually comic-book powerful.

That being said he's carved out an amazingly unique story with an intense plot and intricate backstory. I just hope he can keep it up for the rest of the series.

At least read the series as far as the second novel, Deadhouse Gates. If you don't enjoy that one, there something wrong with you. :p

Oh, it's also a heck of a hard read. The story doesn't flow in normal: Here's character X, here's his life, here's the evil foozle, look something happens to our friend X to send him on some quest to kill the foozle, that some many BAD fantasy writers fall into (yes, I'm looking at you Goodkind, Brooks, Farland). The story jumps around semi-randomly & you just have to hold on & figure things out on the way. It's well worth it though.

I second the motion on Tad Williams stuff. I also like most of Guy Gavriel Kay's stuff...

[noblecaboose]

China Mieville is a great contemporary author to check out.
It's absolutely amazing stuff. I won't go into too much detail because I've only read one of his books so far, but my husband is really, really into him. He has this great alternate reality that's very steampunk-esque fantasy, but he doesn't ruin it by trying to explain everything. He just kind of drops you into his world and everything is made clear through the context. Since all of the characters accept the reality of his world, why should he ruin the story trying to explain it to a newcomer (the reader)? It's fabulous and very meaty.

[gtc]

I would second China Mieville's work along with John Barnes and SM Stirling.

[Fiona]

Just to second all of Morrigan's recommendations and to add that I am half way through Robin Hobb's Soldier Son trilogy. It is set in a different world, and I found it a little slower to get started but I now think it is as interesting as the ones already mentioned. :)

For an older series I really enjoyed Julian May's Saga of the Exiles, and the Intervention series. Though I did not like the Trillium books at all, sadly

[PixyMisa]

On the Science Fiction side of things, Iain M Banks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iain_M_Banks) and Alastair Reynolds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alastair_Reynolds) are two of my favourites at the moment. For Banks, start with The Player of Games or Against a Dark Background; both stand alone pretty effectively. For Reynolds, start at the beginning with Revelation Space.

I'll second CJ Cherryh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._J._Cherryh), who's written a ton of stuff in both genres. You can try the Morgaine books (fantasy adventure, but deeper than most), Foreigner and Cyteen (SF political intrigue), or the Fortress series (fantasy political intrigue).

[PixyMisa]

For sci-fi, I strongly recommend you read Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion by Dan Simmons. I haven't read the other two after, but the first two provide enough closure.
Read Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion and then stop; the others aren't nearly as good. Or even read Hyperion and stop, since it's the real standout of the four volumes.

[Kotatsu]

Fitzpatrick's War (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fitzpatricks-War-Daw-Science-Fiction/dp/0756402719/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205568427&sr=8-1) by Theodore Judson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitzpatrick%27s_War) is a great Scifi novel, of sorts, written as a new edition of a biography. It is an excellent book, but hard to summarise in a way that displays its excellence.

[RandomJSF]

I'll second CJ Cherryh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._J._Cherryh), who's written a ton of stuff in both genres. You can try the Morgaine books (fantasy adventure, but deeper than most), Foreigner and Cyteen (SF political intrigue), or the Fortress series (fantasy political intrigue).


Always nice to come across someone else who has read Cherryh and would recommend her. Most of my friends have difficulty with books like Foreigner, where you may go most of a long chapter almost entirely inside the main character's internal self-dialogue.

Cherryh's Chanur Saga was quite possibly the first sci-fi I ever read. Ah, such fond memories. Cherryh's ability to invent and flesh out alien species and civilizations that are so completely antithetical to normal human thought has always amazed me. The fact that, in the Chanur Saga, the SINGLE human character isn't even the main character is exceptional; that Cherryh has the ability to write a story where you, a human reader, feel that the only human in the story is the alien... Such a talent she has.

Yes, I'm gushing, but I happen to be a huge fan of Cherryh's sci-fi work. :)

I'm rather happy that there's a 10th Bren book (as Cherryh calls them) in the works.

[lionking]

On the Science Fiction side of things, Iain M Banks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iain_M_Banks) and Alastair Reynolds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alastair_Reynolds) are two of my favourites at the moment. For Banks, start with The Player of Games or Against a Dark Background; both stand alone pretty effectively. For Reynolds, start at the beginning with Revelation Space.

I'll second CJ Cherryh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._J._Cherryh), who's written a ton of stuff in both genres. You can try the Morgaine books (fantasy adventure, but deeper than most), Foreigner and Cyteen (SF political intrigue), or the Fortress series (fantasy political intrigue).
Stole my thunder about Banks and Reynolds.

[lionking]

Read Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion and then stop; the others aren't nearly as good. Or even read Hyperion and stop, since it's the real standout of the four volumes.
You are reading my mind again. I did read all four the the last two were a chore.

[PixyMisa]

Ah, I forgot Chanur! Lot of fun, that series.

She's also finished a sequel to Cyteen, so we should see that later this year.

[huw-l]

Any of Charles Stross's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross) sci-fi works.

[Bikewer]

A big second for Charles Stross; I just finished his new one, Halting State. Excellent.

Likewise China Miehville. The prose, the inventiveness....Superb.

I'm a big fan of Greg Bear also. A "big idea" guy, he delivers. The two-book Forge of God and Anvil of Stars are really great. Starts out with a bang...The Earth blows up. Anvil of Stars has a wonderful take on how far-future space warfare might be conducted.

Just picked up K.T.Parker's Devices and Desires after seeing it on a "best of " list. Looks very good.

[D'rok]

I second the China Meiville and the Iain Banks.

Have you tried Gene Wolfe? The Book of the New Sun is four volumes at about 200 pages each. Be warned though...it is subtext, symbolism and allusion rather than straight narrative. (Which is why it is great).

[Uzzy]

I've consistently heard good things about China Mieville. I may have to check him out.

As for Hyperion, well, I've read that one recently on a trip to Poland. It's one of my favourite sci-fi books. Even read Fall of Hyperion, Endymion and Rise of Endymion. Loved them all!

Thanks for the other suggestions guys. I'll have a look into all of them.

[jimbob]

nthed Ian M Banks. Alistair Reynolds is also good, but his endings can be pretty poor.

Ken Macleod (friend of Ian Banks) is also worth a look (if you can ignore the disproportionate influence on galatic history wielded by some scottish trots in the class of '74...). IIRC Newtons wake also started in a far-off planet, and was decided on Rannoch Moor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rannoch_Moor), a dramatic place maybe, but I doubt it will be of pivotal importance in galatic hiostory.

[jimbob]

ETA: and Neal Asher for a bit of lite relief, but fast moving. The "Human Polity" has some similarities to the "Culture". His politics aren't like Ian Banks, I'd wager...

[Morrigan]

Read Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion and then stop; the others aren't nearly as good. Or even read Hyperion and stop, since it's the real standout of the four volumes.
I disagree, Fall of Hyperion was really fantastic as well. And of course in my initial post I wrote "epic fantasy" and I really don't know why, I clearly meant "epic science-fiction".

[rocketdodger]

I have been systematically reading the Hugo winners, from most recent back, and that works out pretty well. I wouldn't say that being an award winner is a guarantee of greatness, or that books which *didn't* win won't be great, but its a place to start at least.

I haven't found any Hugo winners that aren't good, although the Red/Green/Blue Mars series read like ******* geology textbooks 3/4 most of the time.

[gumboot]

I would strongly recommend:

Cecilia Dart-Thornton:
The Bitterbynde Trilogy
-The Ill-made Mute
-The Lady Of Sorrows
-The Battle Of Evernight
Some of the most original and well-written fantasy I've come across.

Robin Hobb:
The Farseer Trilogy:
-Assassin's Apprentice
-Royal Assassin
-Assassin's Quest
The Liveship Traders:
-Ship Of Magic
-The Mad Ship
-Ship Of Destiny

And if you like George R R Martin I'd strongly consider looking at what I call "historical fantasy" - that is fantasy-type books set on earth or on sort of earth-parallels:

Bernard Cornwall
Stonehenge
Warlord Chronicles (Arthurian)
-The Winter King
-Enemy Of God
-Excalibur

Mary Stewart
The Merlin Trilogy (Arthurian)
-The Hollow Hills
-The Crystal Cave
-The Last Enchantment

Jack Whyte
The Camulod Chronicles (Arthurian)
-The Skystone
-The Singing Sword
-The Eagle's Brood
-The Saxon Shore
-The Fort At River's Bend
-The Sorcerer: Metamorphosis
-Uther
-The Lance Thrower
-The Eagle

[gumboot]

Double post.

[Mojo]

I'll second Ken McLeod, and add Greg Egan.

[GreyICE]

China Mievelle (Fantasy)
- Perdido Street Station
- The Scar
- The Iron Council

C.S. Friedman (SF/Fantasy)
- In Conquest Born (SF)
- The Coldfire Trilogy (Fantasy)
- This Alien Shore (SF)

Michael Swanwick (SF)
- Stations of the Tide

Neil Stephenson (SF)
- Snow Crash
- The Diamond Age: or a Young Ladies' Illustrated Primer

John Varley
- Steel Beach
- Millenium
- Titan/Wizard/Demon (trilogy)

Nancy Kress
- Beggars in Spain

Roger Zelazny
- The Amber Chronicles
- Lord of Light
- Lord Demon

Joe Haldeman
- The Forever War

Neil Gaimen
- Sandman (Graphic Novels)
- American Gods

I'll edit the list as more occur to me. Anything on this is basically pure gold.

[wollery]

I'm currently reading Chindi by Jack McDevitt, and I've read several of his other books. I recommend them highly.

[Charlie Monoxide]

I highly recommend this book: http://www.nesfa.org/reviews/Mann/sparrow.html

Although it is set in an SF world, it is more a commentary on religion and relationships (IMHO).

I'm looking forward to the sequel "Children of God"

Charlie

[GreyICE]

I highly recommend this book: http://www.nesfa.org/reviews/Mann/sparrow.html

Although it is set in an SF world, it is more a commentary on religion and relationships (IMHO).

I'm looking forward to the sequel "Children of God"

Charlie

Hate to ruin it, but its not as good. Still, The Sparrow definitely belongs on the list.

[epeos76]

The Algebraist
Ian M. Banks

Cordelia's Honor et seq.
Lois McMaster Bujold

The Hard SF Renaissance (http://www.amazon.com/Hard-SF-Renaissance-David-Hartwell/dp/0312876351)
Dozens of first rate short stories from some of the best writers around.

[Charlie Monoxide]

Hate to ruin it, but its not as good. Still, The Sparrow definitely belongs on the list.Thanks for the heads up.

Like most things in life, the sequel is never as good as the first ...

Charlie (still gonna read it) Monoxide

[Worm]

I would recommend Raymond Feist. The early books.

Magician
Silverthorn
A Darkness At Sethanon

the Empire series is worth a read as well

Daughter of the Empire
Servant of the Empire
Mistress of the Empire

after that, things go downhill a bit,

[Morrigan]

Dude, he asked for good fantasy, in the veins of GRRM. He didn't ask for children's fluff. :\

[Kevin_Lowe]

Raymond E. Feist can die in a fire. China Mieville's stuff is for people who haven't seen eclectic scifi/fantasy worlds before, because the plot and characters sure aren't anything special, and Gene Wolfe just rewrites Vance in an affected, distant style. Like Mieville he's seen as enormously original and clever by people who don't know any better but I don't think his work has any particular merit.

I'd recommend The Iron Dragon's Daughter by Michael Swanwick over anything by Mieville, and The Eyes of the Overworld and Cugel's Saga by Jack Vance over anything by Wolfe.

Hearty seconds for CJ Cherryh and Lois McMaster Bujold.

Sheri S. Tepper has written some terrible potboilers but also some real gems. The Gate to Women's Country and Shadow's End are very good but on the harrowing side. Family Tree and The Fresco are more lighthearted, Grass is in the middle.

My brother, whose tastes are reasonably reliable, highly recommends "Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell" (that's the title of a book, not two author's names) by Susanna Clarke. I haven't read that one myself yet, partially because I found a CJ Cherryh book I didn't have yet in a second hand stall today. Yay!

[GreyICE]

Raymond E. Feist can die in a fire. China Mieville's stuff is for people who haven't seen eclectic scifi/fantasy worlds before, because the plot and characters sure aren't anything special, and Gene Wolfe just rewrites Vance in an affected, distant style. Like Mieville he's seen as enormously original and clever by people who don't know any better but I don't think his work has any particular merit. I can see your point on Perdido Street Station, but how can you say the characters in The Scar or Iron Council are shallow? The Lovers? Tanner Sack? Judah Low?

I'd recommend The Iron Dragon's Daughter by Michael Swanwick over anything by Mieville, and The Eyes of the Overworld and Cugel's Saga by Jack Vance over anything by Wolfe. Swanwick = good. I like Stations of the Tide more than The Iron Dragon's Daughter. Not really a fan of Vance too much, but Wolfe is pretty bad too.

My brother, whose tastes are reasonably reliable, highly recommends "Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell" (that's the title of a book, not two author's names) by Susanna Clarke. I haven't read that one myself yet, partially because I found a CJ Cherryh book I didn't have yet in a second hand stall today. Yay! Ooh! That one is a definite must.

[alfaniner]

Just an observation...

I know that Strunk & White recommend underlining book titles. But that was before the internet and the convention of underlining hyperlinks. Is it acceptable to use bold for book titles instead?

I can't think of any recently published SF book that I have liked as well as much of the older stuff, and many I have disliked intensely.

[Wudang]

Definitely second Erikson's Malazan books. How he juggles so many story lines, characters and races and so on is quite amazing as so many writers of fantasy and "extruded fantasy product" flounder with a much smaller set.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Definitely second Erikson's Malazan books. How he juggles so many story lines, characters and races and so on is quite amazing as so many writers of fantasy and "extruded fantasy product" flounder with a much smaller set.

I wanted to like the Malazan books, and the setting had a lot of potential, but I never got to the stage of caring about any of the characters or about the story. I just watched the superheroes fight for a while and lost interest. (From memory I read Gates of the Moon and the following novel before I gave up).

As far as Mieville's plots and characters go, I confess I did not read anything past Perdido Street Station because friends told me his other books were more of the same and no improvement. If the general consensus is that his later books have plots and characters that you could give a rat's about I'd think about picking them up.

While I think of it, Tim Powers is another hit-and-miss author with some impressive hits (The Anubis Gates, Last Call), and Guy Gavriel Kay is sometimes a bit cute and annoying but has done a lot of fun stuff. As unashamed Tolkien-recycling fantasy goes The Fionavar Tapestry is really good.

Someone listed Zelazny's Lord of Light earlier - I think a lot of Zelazny's work (particularly the Amber stuff) has been wildly overrated, and it's just a fact that a lot of it is repetitive, but Lord of Light deserves all the praise it gets.

[jimbob]

Zelazney's hardly "modern" SF...

But I like it.

We had "Today we Choose Faces" at home.

I quite enjoyed some of the Michael Scott Rohan stuff (fantasy).

Mary Gentle too

[Bikewer]

'Tis rather interesting to see different folk's take on these various authors. I've read all of Miehville's stuff to date, and enjoyed them all. I suppose if you want character building The Iron Council might be the best, but I enjoy them for the prose and the inventiveness.

I love both Wolfe and Vance, and never had a moment's association between the two. Oh, I suppose that Wolfe's far-future "torturer" novels might have some slight correlation with Vance's Dying Earth stories, but they're so utterly different in tone...

It's what makes art interesting, I suppose.

I just got the sequel to Iron Dragon's daughter, The Dragon of Babel, but haven't started it yet as I have started K.J. Parker's Devices And Desires.
This is a fantasy novel dealing with a technological society in the midst of an essentially-feudal land. One of the main characters is an engineer, who escapes a sentence of death for the crime of "technological innovation"; he made a machine that did not conform to specs....
Interesting so far, but a tad slow.

[chapka]

Well, you may want to take my advice with a grain of salt, since I hardly seem to read any sci-fi or fantasy these days.

But one of the last sci-fi series I really enjoyed was Stephen R. Donaldson's "Gap" series. If space opera is your cup of tea, I recommend it. As an added bonus, the first book, The Real Story, is very short and pretty well self-contained, so if you don't like it you haven't missed much.

Also, while it's not exactly modern or fantasy...if you haven't read it (and too many people haven't), I always recommend Alexandre Dumas' original The Three Musketeers and the first sequel, Twenty Years After. A lot of the stock elements of modern fantasy (and SF for that matter) were practically invented by Dumas, and in a good translation, it's still pretty hard to beat. You might be surprised how little you miss the magical elements (especially with fate doing a pretty good stand-in).

[RobRoy]

I'll second Bernard Cornwall, although he is not fantasy, but rather historical fiction. Still, for sword-swinging action in a historical setting, no one is finder right now.

Since no one has mentioned it, Stephen King's Gunslinger series is certainly worth a look. It has its failings, but the narrative is quite good.

I've also followed Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series. I believe he's up to ten books at this point, and since the world he created is fairly organic (main characters drop out, die, are replaced by new characters, etc.), there is potentially no end to the stories he can tell. Certainly the first three books are worth a read starting with The Sleeping Dragon.

I know I'll catch hell for it, but you asked recommendations: Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series is good fantasy. Not great and, since the last book is not slated for release until Autumn of 2009, it's hard to say how it will round out. Still, I'm re-reading the series, and though it has frustrations and failings, its a solid fantasy story.

For science fiction I always recommend A Different Light by Elizabeth Lynn. It's a short book, but it just reads like poetry to me. It's one of the few books that I read again and again.

S. Andrew Swann tells a great set of tales in what is called the Moreau Omnibus. Four books, starting with Forests of the Night, which is a classic noir detective story woven masterfully into a science fiction setting of impressive proportions. His Hotile Takeover series, of which he's stated there will be another set of books, is actually part of the same universe, but with a couple of centuries thrown into the divide. It's a worthwhile story as well.

[X]

I have two sets of recommendations.

-----

Some books are just fun to read. No deep messages or intense characterizations. Essentially mental junk-food. But we all know junk food is tasty. This is the first set:

Old Man's War, The Ghost Brigades (sequel to OMW) and The Android's Dream, by John Scalzi.
Scalzi writes with what is, to me, wit. The books are light fare, but interesting, and a good way to pass time. The plots are relativley simple, but the writing is highly entertaining.

Rats, Bats & Vats, The Rats, the Bats & the Ugly (sequel to RBV) and Genie Out of the Bottle (prequel to RBV) by Eric Flint and Dave Freer
The best way to describe these two books is to quote the review from Booklist: "Space opera grows fur and wings in this jape by two accomplished writers. . . . Politically correct? C'mon! Great fun? Ah, yes." Having read Shakespear will help you to understand some of the comments made by characters during the books. For those interested, Rats bats and Vats, as well as the short prequel Genie Out of the Bottle are available free at Baen's free online library, here (http://www.baen.com/library/defaultTitles.htm).

The Deathstalker Saga, by Simon R. Green
This rather long space opera combines elements of fantasy and sci-fi (ESP, magic, swordfights, technology and strangeness) in one entertaining blend. The series consists of 8 books (Deathstalker, Deathstalker Rebellion, Deathstalker War, Deathstalker Honour and Deathstalker Destiny comprise the original series, while Deathstalker Legacy, Deathstalker Return and Deathstalker Coda follow some two hundred years after the events of the first five novels) and one prequel (Twilight of the Empire also called Deathstalker Prelude, which consists of 3 short stories involving characters from the rest of the series, and explaining some of the background of things discussed during the series).

-----

Other books are thought-provoking and make me think. They often excel in character development, and are frequently (though not always) heavier in tone than the books listed above. These books comprise my second list:

C. J. Cherryh has been mentions, but I'm going to throw out two more titles, more fantasy than sci-fi. Rider at the Gates and it's sequel, Cloud's Rider.
I haven't yet read the sequel, because I haven't yet found a copy, but Rider at the Gates was a very interesting novel, and definately different from the everyday offerings. It has Cherryh's typical attention to detail, character and societal development, all revolving around events and motivations that are alien to the reader.

The Eternity Brigae, but Stephen Goldin.
This little old tome remains the only book that has ever actually frightened me. Read it, if you can find it, and tell yourself whether or not, if the technology existed, such a thing would be done.

Species Imperative Series by Jules E. Czerneda.
This series consists of 3 books, Survival (book 1), Migration (book 2) and Regenration (book 3). Just as Cherryh excells and developing utterly alien societies, so too does Czerneda excell at creating utterly alien species. These books are definately worth a look for anyone looking for a good, long story.

[Morrigan]

Oh, please please don't waste your precious time with Wheel of Time. It's really not worth it. Trust me. :(

[RobRoy]

Oh, please please don't waste your precious time with Wheel of Time. It's really not worth it. Trust me. :(

See, I told you I would catch remarks for the recommendation. I should have bet money! :D

[Fiona]

No takers :(

[Worm]

Dude, he asked for good fantasy, in the veins of GRRM. He didn't ask for children's fluff. :\

Each to their own (etc.)

I don't hold up Feist as a marvel of modern fantasy, but his early work has kept me occupied for long periods of time - if that makes me a child, then c'est la vie.

[Wudang]

K J Parker - started 2 of his trilogies, both pretty good starts then the second book tedious droning on about crafts - how to make a bow, work a smithy etc. Now, some of that adds depth to a book but this just bored me.

[Wudang]

I have just finished http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-War-Punktown-Jeffrey-Thomas/dp/1844165329/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206536898&sr=8-1 and rather enjoyed it and am now finding it difficult to put down "The Glass Books of the Dream Eaters"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Glass-Books-Dream-Eaters/dp/0141027304/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206536974&sr=1-1

[RobRoy]

I don't hold up Feist as a marvel of modern fantasy, but his early work has kept me occupied for long periods of time - if that makes me a child, then c'est la vie.

Not at all. Feist obviously appeals to a number of readers. Not me, but there it is.

Along this same line, Mickey Zucker Reichert has some entertaining notions. I was hooked by his first novel of the Bifrost Guardians series, Godslayer. I've read some of the others in that series, but sadly the first one was the most worthwhile. A friend of mine greatly enjoyed his Renshai Trilogy, but I can't say the same thing. It was only moderately amusing and I was glad to have not spent money on the books themselves.

[Skeptic Guy]

Just an observation...

I know that Strunk & White recommend underlining book titles. But that was before the internet and the convention of underlining hyperlinks. Is it acceptable to use bold for book titles instead?

I can't think of any recently published SF book that I have liked as well as much of the older stuff, and many I have disliked intensely.

IMHO, Strunk & White is always the way to go. Underline book titles and put magazine titles in quotes.

Oh, please please don't waste your precious time with Wheel of Time. It's really not worth it. Trust me. :(

I wrote about this in another thread, but I wasted more time with that series. The first couple were ok, but Jordan just couldn't bring it to an end. Now there's about a thousand plot lines and a couple hundred characters. If his wife decides to finish it and publishes the last volume, I'll read it only because I put so much time into it. (Don't ask me why since I didn't like it so much. I'm an enigma.)

I'm not sure that you'd consider him modern SF, but anything by Harlan Ellison is good, especially The Beast that Shouted Love at the Heart of the World, a collection of short stories.

[RobRoy]

If his wife decides to finish it and publishes the last volume, I'll read it only because I put so much time into it. (Don't ask me why since I didn't like it so much. I'm an enigma.)

Not if. The final book, A Memory of Light, is scheduled for release in the Autumn of 2009. Brandon Sanderson was selected to complete the book, with sections already written by Jordan, and Jordan's notes created for this purpose.

Knife of Dreams, the penultimate book, renewed my hope in the series. Not restored, mind you, but enough that I re-found the enjoyment I had lost through some of the more trudging texts. My recent re-reading of the series has reinforced that it was, if not what it at first promised, at least worthwhile.

[TobiasTheViking]

For sci-fi, I strongly recommend you read Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion by Dan Simmons. I haven't read the other two after, but the first two provide enough closure. Anyway, it's probably the most ambitious and epic fantasy I've ever read... and yes, I'm including Dune in there.
having read all of both series i can honestly, from the depth of my heart say..


HERESY

Ahh.. that was nice...

Hyperion is a really good book, a really good series, though i think the first is the worst(it is kinda different in style). Later there are some, ah, surprising interpretations of Jesus. :)

In a good way, (not just saying that as an atheist)

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Just an observation...

I know that Strunk & White recommend underlining book titles. But that was before the internet and the convention of underlining hyperlinks. Is it acceptable to use bold for book titles instead?

The MLA says that italics can be used in place of underlining (but they prefer underlining).

The APA recommends italics.

The Chicago Manual of Style recommends italics.

The American Sociological Association recommends italics.

Mahatma Kane Jeeves recommends purple, Comic Sans italics.

Of course, these guides are all geared toward print publications. On the web, the general rule is to not underline anything that isn't a link. [Web Style Guide (http://webstyleguide.com/type/emphasis.html)]

[Kotatsu]

A related question: Has anyone here read Thomas Harlan's Oath of Empire series? I have found books 1,2 and 4 in second-hand shops, and they seem to be interesting, but I haven't started reading them yet.

[aries]

I always start out by advocating the authorship of the grand dame of SF:

Ursual K. Le Guin

Her books and novels might not be scientific as in there's loads and loads of tech stuff. They tell more about a future and how humanity and the persons in them react to the future. The techno advances is more of a backdrop to the story about how the people cope in her envisioned future.

And yes, she did write other books than the 'tombs of atuan'.
(the wizard from earthsee-series)

Then, you really should read the Danish author (yes, I know shameless nation-promoting :D but she is that good ) Lene Kaaberbøll's books. It is possible that she is known under another name in the English speaking world, though. But her books about 'the shamer' are really well, although they might be considered more fantasy than Science Fiction.

[Morrigan]

I wrote about this in another thread, but I wasted more time with that series. The first couple were ok, but Jordan just couldn't bring it to an end. Now there's about a thousand plot lines and a couple hundred characters. If his wife decides to finish it and publishes the last volume, I'll read it only because I put so much time into it. (Don't ask me why since I didn't like it so much. I'm an enigma.)
Oh, I know how you feel - I'm exactly the same. I think Wheel of Time is mostly crap, but for the same reasons you outlined, I'm gonna read that final volume... which thankfully IS going to come out, though, well, I've seen samples of that Brandon's writing and it's frankly weak, I'm not a native English speaker and I think I could do better. But then again we didn't read WoT for Jordan's writing either so I don't think it matters much.

[James Fox]

Some recent reads I’ve enjoyed have been Olympus and Ilium by Dan Simmons and the Baroque Cycle by Neil Stevenson. The Stephenson books take a significant time investment but are worth it. Also Stephenson’s Cryptonomicon is a very good read. An oldie but goodie is Frank Herbert’s Dune. If you’ve seen the movie or SF channel adaptation try and forget then completely before reading the book.

I saw someone recommend Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell…. well just don’t, I mean really, don’t even waste your time, when there are really good books available that have real endings and real plots. (not that I have an opinion)

Here’s a place to get more ideas: http://www.sfsite.com/yearsbest01.htm

[Jeff Corey]

I've recently reread A Clockwork Orange, A Scanner Darkly, Venus on the Half Shell, Nothing like a feast of Burgess, Dick and Trout.

[rocketdodger]

For sci-fi, I strongly recommend you read Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion by Dan Simmons. I haven't read the other two after, but the first two provide enough closure. Anyway, it's probably the most ambitious and epic fantasy I've ever read... and yes, I'm including Dune in there.

Seconded.

I finally made it to Hyperion in my backwards treck through the Hugo winners, and I can honestly say it is the most engrossing book I have read yet (as in, I simply cannot put it down at night.)

[rocketdodger]

I saw someone recommend Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell…. well just don’t, I mean really, don’t even waste your time, when there are really good books available that have real endings and real plots. (not that I have an opinion)

Other than the ending, I quite enjoyed it.

The strange sense of humor infused throughout makes it a fun read.

[Menalitus]

Larry Niven - Ringworld
Greg Bear - Eon - Eternity
Stephen Baxter - Anything
Ian M Banks - Anything

All are genius

[Menalitus]

But one of the last sci-fi series I really enjoyed was Stephen R. Donaldson's "Gap" series. If space opera is your cup of tea, I recommend it. As an added bonus, the first book, The Real Story, is very short and pretty well self-contained, so if you don't like it you haven't missed much.




I'm reading the Gap series at the moment and enjoying it immensely.

[Wudang]

Others I've enjoyed this year or last
Scott Lynch "The Lies of Locke Lamora"
Patrick Rothfuss "The Name of the Wind"
Brian Ruckley "Winterbirth"

[Morrigan]

I second The Lies of Locke Lamora. Excellent stuff with very witty writing. :)

[Stir]

OK, I'm only about half way through the second volume, but it's one of the best things I've read in years, and I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread:

Joe Abercrombie's 'The First Law' trilogy

I'm just hoping it stays this good through the end ...

[Wudang]

Nice one Stir. I enjoyed the first, and he did a good job of making a sympathetic-ish character out of a torturer. The second is sitting in my waiting to be read pile as I decided I'd re-read Lies of locke Lamora.

[Skeptic Guy]

Not if. The final book, A Memory of Light, is scheduled for release in the Autumn of 2009. Brandon Sanderson was selected to complete the book, with sections already written by Jordan, and Jordan's notes created for this purpose.

Knife of Dreams, the penultimate book, renewed my hope in the series. Not restored, mind you, but enough that I re-found the enjoyment I had lost through some of the more trudging texts. My recent re-reading of the series has reinforced that it was, if not what it at first promised, at least worthwhile.

Oh, I know how you feel - I'm exactly the same. I think Wheel of Time is mostly crap, but for the same reasons you outlined, I'm gonna read that final volume... which thankfully IS going to come out, though, well, I've seen samples of that Brandon's writing and it's frankly weak, I'm not a native English speaker and I think I could do better. But then again we didn't read WoT for Jordan's writing either so I don't think it matters much.

Sorry it took so long to respond.

Well, that's good. I'll keep an eye out for A Memory of Light. I don't know anything about Brandon, but Morrigan's build-up does not impart to me a great deal of hope.

I just hope that Rand starts using Bale Fire to wrap things up.

[Bikewer]

I liked Norrell and Strange as well. Very clever and subtle humor throughout, and an interesting take on the idea of magic.

[RobRoy]

Sorry it took so long to respond.

Well, that's good. I'll keep an eye out for A Memory of Light. I don't know anything about Brandon, but Morrigan's build-up does not impart to me a great deal of hope.

I'm up to Path of Daggers in my re-reading of the series, and while there have been some sections that were less-than-stellar (such as the whole lead up to the use of the Bowl of the Winds, blech!) overall the series has remained entertaining for me, and actually renewed my faith in partaking this journey. Of course, the next books, Winter's Heart and Crossroads of Twilight are where I recall being the least enjoyable, and more of a trial to trudge through.

I just hope that Rand starts using Bale Fire to wrap things up.

I doubt that would occur more than he has used it so far, in a very limited measure, given the potential effects of balefire (unraveling the Pattern itself). I'm of the opinion that Rand will break the last seal on the Dark One's prison, bringing about the final confrontation, which will end better than we all think.

[Jon.]

I'll throw in another vote in favour of Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell. Yes, the ending was weak, but the world was interesting and the characters well-drawn.

My favourite SF author is William Gibson, and I haven't seen him mentioned here yet. Two trilogies (the Sprawl trilogy, which really started cyberpunk; and the Bridge trilogy, set in the not-too-distant future*) plus two books that are not technically SF (they are set in the present day) but have that feel: Pattern Recognition and Spook Country.

The Sprawl trilogy (Neuromancer, Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive) is very much "hard" SF, and very cyberpunk.

The Bridge trilogy (Virtual Light, Idoru and All Tomorrow's Parties) is not as hard, set in the nearer future, extrapolating some technological and social trends a few decades.

All excellent.

*Actually, I think Virtual Light is set in about 2004, but many of its technological innovations have not yet arrived, so I still consider it "near-future" SF. ;)

[athon]

I can see your point on Perdido Street Station, but how can you say the characters in The Scar or Iron Council are shallow? The Lovers? Tanner Sack? Judah Low?

Yup. Fully agree. His first book, King Rat, was clever but I wouldn't put it up there with the greats. It echoed Gaiman in many ways, only Gaiman did it better.

Perdido Street I happened to really like. The ending was something of a let down for me, but the characters and interactions were rather good.

The Scar was superb. I've read a fair deal of fantasy in my time, and I still like to read it (I very rarely read a book a second time). The Remade, the Anophele, the undead...all of it's great. The plot was much better as well.

Iron Council was also quite good. I loved the fact Mieville felt quite daring using gay male protagonists, yet it barely created a fuss at all. It worked perfectly with the story, not overshadowing it like I've seen happen before.

Swanwick = good. I like Stations of the Tide more than The Iron Dragon's Daughter. Not really a fan of Vance too much, but Wolfe is pretty bad too.Iron Dragon's Daughter contained fantastic imagery. The drowning horse scene still sends shivers up my spine. I wouldn't rank it above Mieville, though, probably for the plot being nothing to write home about. It was well written and the characters were fun, but I got to the end and didn't feel like it was the best book ever written, while the Scar I turned back to page one and started to read again.

And throw in another vote for Strange and Norell. Brilliant piece of work, that one.

Athon

[rats]

I'm glad China Miéville has been mentioned as no one around me IRL has ever heard of him, until I introduce them of course!

I also thought Scar* was brilliant.

I was under the impression Perdido Street Station was his first novel, so am pleased to be corrected, as I thought the prose was somewhat strained in parts. It's been many years since I read it so I don't really remember any specific examples, but it he seemed to use 'big' words to impress when more well known words would have been more appropriate, especially in context of a character's thought or speech.

Bear in mind the above is a very mild criticism! I mean, check out my sentence writing skills!

* I first heard the Gash, by Flaming Lips, while reading Scar :)

[Mark6]

On the Science Fiction side of things, Iain M Banks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iain_M_Banks) and Alastair Reynolds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alastair_Reynolds) are two of my favourites at the moment. For Banks, start with The Player of Games or Against a Dark Background; both stand alone pretty effectively. For Reynolds, start at the beginning with Revelation Space.

Definitely agree about Reynolds; I had not read anything by Banks yet. Although I recommend starting with "Chasm City" -- it was written later than "Revelation Space", but takes place earlier, and provides better backstory. Many small details in "Revelation Space" make no sense unless you already read "Chasm City", but the reverse is not true.

[Gevaudan]

I like books that have fun with the tired old fantasy cliches - here are a few of that type.

Diana Wynne Jones wrote the hilarious devil's dictonary style "Toughpick Guide to Fantasyland" which mericlessly mocks genre conventions, then went on to write the novels "The Dark Lord of Derkholm" and "Year of the Griffin" which have a great deal of fun playing in a terribly cliche'd fantasy world. In the first, wizards are forced to take obnoxious tourists from our world on carefully choreographed 'adventures' by a cruel businessman with a demon on his side. The sequel follows a wizard's griffin daughter on her first year at a magical academy far more interesting than Hogwarts. Just about anything Ms. Jones has written is pure gold.

"Witch & Wombat" by Carolyn Cushman also has a long-suffering witch escorting a bunch of people from the mundane world on an adventure, although in this case her troublesome clients are a bunch of kids (and a jerky game reviewer who she eventually loses patience with and transforms into a giant dung beetle) who think they're experiencing a very realistic virtual reality game. You won't beleive the identity of the Big Baddie at the end.

If you can find the old Greyhawk novels by Rose Estes in a used-book store, be sure to snap them up. Although they're licensed product, they actually read as incredibly goofy spoofs of Dungeons & Dragons.

Alan Dean Foster's "Journeys of the Catechist" trilogy (Carnivores of Light and Darkness, Into the Thinking Kingdoms, and A Triumph of Souls) are fun reads. A self-proclaimed "simple farmer" gets sucked into rescuing a princess from an evil Dark Lord, along with a hard-drinking swordsman who has convinced himself the farmer is secretly a wizard hunting treasure and a sarcastic, talking lion-cheetah hybrid. Foster crams every chapter with clever fantasy concepts.

[Brainache]

I'd start with Stephen Baxter's Timelike Infinity and then read all the rest of his Xeelee sequence books. Then read all of the Destiny's Children books. After that, if you are anything like me, you will search out and devour all of his other stuff as well.

[Menalitus]

I'd start with Stephen Baxter's Timelike Infinity and then read all the rest of his Xeelee sequence books. Then read all of the Destiny's Children books. After that, if you are anything like me, you will search out and devour all of his other stuff as well.


I agree completely Baxter is a God! (oops, probably not the best choice of words for jref :)). I will rephrase... if god were to exist he would be Stephen Baxter, or at the very least he would be Baxter's dad.

The first book I read of his was the Time Ships, it is an authorized sequel to the Time Machine by HG Wells, absolute genius and in my opinion one of the greatest scfi authors ever.

[Gevaudan]

Baxter's a bit of a plagarist, though. A lot of the future species he describes in Evolution were ripped directly from Dougal Dixon's Man After Man, and I've noticed he tends to repeat the same ideas and descriptions over and over in his various books.

[Menalitus]

Baxter's a bit of a plagarist, though. A lot of the future species he describes in Evolution were ripped directly from Dougal Dixon's Man After Man, and I've noticed he tends to repeat the same ideas and descriptions over and over in his various books.


Not read Dixon but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the ideas aren't new, I guess that's always going to be a problem with scifi there are so many crazy exciting concepts out there already it must be really hard to come up with new stuff all the time.

Regardless of the possibility of some of the concepts sounding familiar I would still rate Baxter as one of my favorite scifi authors. He is one who I would feel very comfortable mentioning in the same sentence as Larry Niven, Alistair Reynolds, Ian M Banks etc.

As an aside I have just started reading The Butlerian Jihad (Book one of the Legends of Dune trilogy), its been 20 years since I read Dune etc but it is looking really promising, this may be helped by the input of Kevin J Anderson who wrote the extremely entertaining (and as yet unfinished) "Saga of the Seven Suns".

[Wudang]

X - thanks for recommending Old Man's War. I'd shrugged it off from the blurb but it's a good read so far.

[Furi]

Pretty much as a lot of said Banks, Reynolds, Baxter and Simmons (all are pretty damned groovy Hyperion, Endymion, Ilium etc)

suprised no-one has mentioned Peter Hamilton, nights dawn is good if you want a couple of door stoppers, and quite enjoyed the Mindstar series for a couple of quick night time reads (but then that just might be my taste and I will get crucifed on a lampost and my eviscerated corpse filled with horse crap for suggesting it)

Kim Robinsons RGB Mars and Martians are as pointed out earlier a field manual to planetary terraforming but are good and will help pass a lazy day or 2.

[Wudang]

Good grief, no. I enjoyed the Mindstar books and Nights Dawn. I thought pandora's star and Misspent Youth were just okay.

BTW - nice to see another Half Man, Half Biscuit fan

[Tyooby]

While I think of it, Tim Powers is another hit-and-miss author with some impressive hits (The Anubis Gates, Last Call),

I definitely second Tim Powers' Anubis Gates (This is the only book I've read of him, so I can't comment on the other title)...

I recently read Anubis Gates, after reading this review:
darkroastedblend.com/2009/05/two-of-most-entertaining-sf-novels-from.html
and I must say the reviewer did a good job of describing what's so great about this book.

[epeos76]

I always start out by advocating the authorship of the grand dame of SF:

Ursual K. Le Guin

Her books and novels might not be scientific as in there's loads and loads of tech stuff. They tell more about a future and how humanity and the persons in them react to the future. The techno advances is more of a backdrop to the story about how the people cope in her envisioned future.

And yes, she did write other books than the 'tombs of atuan'.
(the wizard from earthsee-series)

Then, you really should read the Danish author (yes, I know shameless nation-promoting :D but she is that good ) Lene Kaaberbøll's books. It is possible that she is known under another name in the English speaking world, though. But her books about 'the shamer' are really well, although they might be considered more fantasy than Science Fiction.


Ursula K. is one of my favorite authors of all time. She has rarely dreamed up a world I wouldn't emigrate to, in a heartbeat.

In an entirely different vein, I recommend anything by Bruce Sterling. Especially his short stories. He's remarkable versatile.

[Madalch]

I just read David Eddings' "Ruby Knight" series. Wow, was that ever similar to the Belgariad.

I guess at least in this one, the characters weren't complaining that it was too much like the last epic.

[epepke]

Just an observation...

I know that Strunk & White recommend underlining book titles. But that was before the internet and the convention of underlining hyperlinks. Is it acceptable to use bold for book titles instead?

In typography (which this counts as) using italics is the convention. Underlining was for typewriters.

[Audible Click]

The best sci/fi I've read lately is: In Her Name by Michael R. Hicks. It's a long book but it's the kind of novel you wish wouldn't end.

[dogjones]

I've been on a Jack Vance stint for a while now. Wonderful stuff, particularly his imagery and his sociology, to say nothing of his brilliant turn of phrase and gift for euphemism.

SF:
The Demon Princes series
Alastor series
Night Lamp
Planet of Adventure series
The Blue World

Fantasy:
Dying Earth series(esp. Eyes of the Overworld & Cugel's Saga)
Lyonesse series (the first one isn't great but the second and third are fantastic)

Now git buyin!

[Audible Click]

Here is a fun website for anyone that likes to read. Just type in the name of your favorite author and see what happens.

http://www.literature-map.com/

[catbasket]

Here is a fun website for anyone that likes to read. Just type in the name of your favorite author and see what happens.

http://www.literature-map.com/
That's great fun! Thanks :D

[RobRoy]

Here is a fun website for anyone that likes to read. Just type in the name of your favorite author and see what happens.

http://www.literature-map.com/

Interesting. I wonder how they worked this out. I ask because when I put in Robert Jordan, their suggestion is that I should like Terry Goodkind as well, and yet I can't stand him. I put in George R.R. Martin, and there's Robin Hobb and Tad Williams. Hobb is ok, but Williams bores me. Laurell K. Hamilton gives me Kim Harrison, and except for the gratuitious sex scenes, I hated Harrison (I've quit Hamilton for the same reason, but she still had a shred of story that was interesting to me).

[dogjones]

Interesting. I wonder how they worked this out. I ask because when I put in Robert Jordan, their suggestion is that I should like Terry Goodkind as well, and yet I can't stand him. I put in George R.R. Martin, and there's Robin Hobb and Tad Williams. Hobb is ok, but Williams bores me. Laurell K. Hamilton gives me Kim Harrison, and except for the gratuitious sex scenes, I hated Harrison (I've quit Hamilton for the same reason, but she still had a shred of story that was interesting to me).

Yeah, it's very vague on how it works:

http://www.gnod.net/

I wonder if this is where they get the data:

http://www.gnooks.com/faves.php

In which case it would appear to be rather limited.

[Hokulele]

Anything by Guy Gavriel Kay.

Almost anything by Steven Brust (he can be a downer at times).

[Audible Click]

Yeah, it's very vague on how it works:

http://www.gnod.net/

I wonder if this is where they get the data:

http://www.gnooks.com/faves.php

In which case it would appear to be rather limited.

Hey guys, I said it would be fun not precise!

[RobRoy]

Hey guys, I said it would be fun not precise!

Oh, don't get me wrong. I was just curious how they ranked these items together, and provided the examples that made me curious.

On the alternate spectrum, I put in Tolkien and it put King right next to him. As far as King's Dark Tower series, I totally agreed with this. I looked specifically for George R.R. Martin, and he was there, but off in the distance. <shrug>

But don't feel bad for posting it. It is very interesting!

[JenseitsDavon]

I admit, I'm shocked that no one's mentioned Terry Pratchett yet - hard fantasy he is not, but great fun to read, especially if you can keep up with the references to the "real" world. I've enjoyed all of his Discworld series to date (and I own most of them :P).

I'll second Neil Gaiman and also throw in Jim Butcher's Dresden Files - a snarky wizard in Chicago. One of my favorite things about the series is that you don't need to have read any of the others to enjoy a random one of the series - the context is efficiently slid in.

For more serious fantasy, I'd recommend Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series. Lots of intrigue and some kinky sex - what's not to like?

I'd second (eighth?) the Hyperion recommendation.

Tad Williams does some great stuff as well - for a good standalone, I'd go with The Flower War.

Hope that helps :)

[Madalch]

On the alternate spectrum, I put in Tolkien and it put King right next to him. As far as King's Dark Tower series, I totally agreed with this. I looked specifically for George R.R. Martin, and he was there, but off in the distance.

I put in Robertson Davies, and it offered P. G. Wodehouse. I clicked on that, and it offered P.G. Wodehouse, PG Wodehouse, and (I think) PG Woadehouse, all at varying distances and different directions.

[arthwollipot]

Where do I start (http://www.arthwollipot.com/photography/books/)?

[arthwollipot]

I'll second Neil Gaiman...I'm one of a quiet minority who find Gaiman to be terribly overrated. A friend gave me a copy of American Gods which I've wanted to read for some time because some good friends of mine were raving about it a while back. Apparently it was the bees' knees. I got about a third of the way through it before losing interest. I didn't hate it the way I hated Stephen Donaldson, but it utterly failed to grab my interest in any way at all.

YMMV, of course.

[Morrigan]

I thought I was the only one who disliked him. I mean, he seems like a nice guy from seeing him in interviews and clips and such and he's a Lovecraft fan, so I'd feel bad about punching him for sucking, but... unlike you I actually actively hate American Gods, it was utter crap. He co-wrote Good Omens, and Neverwhere was semi-decent, so he's not without redeeming values, but American Gods is awful, most of his short stories in Smoke & Mirrors were thoroughly uninteresting, and Stardust is pretty damn bleh too, so I don't know why he gets fellated that much.

[JenseitsDavon]

That bad, huh? I liked everything I read by Gaiman, but to each their own. Just realized I forgot to add:

Orson Scott Card: Ender's Game (The others in the series are good reads as well, but the first is the best.)

Frank Herbert: Dune (I've only read the first, but I'm told the others are good as well.)

Alan Dean Foster: Journeys of the Catechist series - imaginative world, engaging characters.

[JenseitsDavon]

@ Arth:

Holy crap, dude! That is a lot of freaking books!

[Morrigan]

GODDAMMIT! Other than Goodkind stuff, there's scarcely any book I loathe and despise more than Ender's Game. American Gods is pure genius in comparison. Why'd you have to bring that piece of go-se up? :covereyes

I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly think there's any merit in Ender's Game. The plot is so unbelievably stupid, it's... gah! What the hell is wrong with you people? :(

[JenseitsDavon]

Ouch.

I think I've made my first ignore list, and before a hundred posts at that.

Maybe I should have added "YMMV".

[JenseitsDavon]

Also, I liked American Gods.

:P

[Dunstan]

I'm one of a quiet minority who find Gaiman to be terribly overrated. A friend gave me a copy of American Gods which I've wanted to read for some time because some good friends of mine were raving about it a while back. Apparently it was the bees' knees. I got about a third of the way through it before losing interest. I didn't hate it the way I hated Stephen Donaldson, but it utterly failed to grab my interest in any way at all.

YMMV, of course.

I thought American Gods was ok, but it didn't make me want to run out and buy any of his other books. I suspect that part of its appeal is for mythology buffs to play "spot the reference," which I suppose says something about the author's knowledge and/or research skills, but doesn't make for good writing in my opinion.

[arthwollipot]

I'd like to read Sandman some day. I think I know someone who's got the complete series in graphic novels.

[RobRoy]

Where do I start (http://www.arthwollipot.com/photography/books/)?

Color me impressed. I thought I had a voracious appetite for books, but clearly there is always someone an order of magnitude or five greater!

I'll tell you, my wife freaked out on me, twice over my book collection, and I've parsed it down three times to calm her down. I believe, at its height, I had a tenth of the books you have.

I've come to the conclusion that books are just too expensive to match my reading needs, I lack the space to keep them, most books I will never read twice, and the library offers the books I want to read at least once for free. But I certainly envy anyone who has managed to keep their books. :D

However, if you decide to throw caution to the wind, I will gladly, gladly, gladly take those DAW yellow-spine soft-backs off your hand. I've been collecting those for years, and love the stories. I'll even fly/drive to pick them up. And yes, I'm very serious about that offer!

Ouch.

I think I've made my first ignore list, and before a hundred posts at that.

Maybe I should have added "YMMV".

Don't mind Morrigan. She hates everything. Ok, not everything, but close enough that I can paint with my second-broadest brush and cover the distance. I doubt, however, that she's put you on ignore. That's really not her style. And while often harsh in her criticism of All-Things-Morrigan-Hates, she usually doesn't mean it personally. Usually.

Your opinion is your own, and you should express it loud and proud. As I told another friend not five minutes ago: you can entertain some of the people some of the time, the rest you ignore or nuke. :D

[RobRoy]

I'd like to read Sandman some day. I think I know someone who's got the complete series in graphic novels.

Are you making a joke? If not, then I'm reasonably certain you can pick up the entire series in trade paperback.

If you are, then kindly ignore this message and chuckle about me behind my back. :D

[arthwollipot]

However, if you decide to throw caution to the wind, I will gladly, gladly, gladly take those DAW yellow-spine soft-backs off your hand. I've been collecting those for years, and love the stories. I'll even fly/drive to pick them up. And yes, I'm very serious about that offer!All the way to Australia? I am impressed. :)

Unfortunately that will never happen. Sorry.

Are you making a joke? If not, then I'm reasonably certain you can pick up the entire series in trade paperback.Actually, I'm not. I've heard quite a lot about it over the years, and it seems to me of a style that I think I'd like. Without actually reading it I won't know. And if I can borrow it, I don't need to spend money on something I may not actually like.

[Morrigan]

Ouch.

I think I've made my first ignore list, and before a hundred posts at that.

Maybe I should have added "YMMV".

Pish-posh! Only cowards use the ignore list, as far as I'm concerned.


Don't mind Morrigan. She hates everything.

I'm tempted to list all the stuff I love (and fellate praise regularly, even here) to give fault to your selective reading, but since you're probably just taking the piss it's not worth the effort. :p But, seriously, I think there's something wrong with someone over the age of 16* who likes Ender's Game.


* I originally wrote "12" but then I remembered, some people, boys especially, take more time to develop an adult brain... :P

[PixyMisa]

I thought I was the only one who disliked him. I mean, he seems like a nice guy from seeing him in interviews and clips and such and he's a Lovecraft fan, so I'd feel bad about punching him for sucking, but... unlike you I actually actively hate American Gods, it was utter crap. He co-wrote Good Omens, and Neverwhere was semi-decent, so he's not without redeeming values, but American Gods is awful, most of his short stories in Smoke & Mirrors were thoroughly uninteresting, and Stardust is pretty damn bleh too, so I don't know why he gets fellated that much.
I gave up on American Gods half-way through, but I liked Neverwhere and really liked Stardust.

[Bella Mortis]

arthwollipot: Oh, man, I envy you! I wish I could have that type of collection, but I'm a broke college student with very little room. Maybe someday...

Anyway, back on topic! I'm going to second reading some Philip K. Dick, especially his short stories. If you read the ones that were turned into movies, like "Minority Report" and "Paycheck", you will be highly amused and/or frustrated at how much Hollywood loves to rape source materials. I'd also include a recommendation for "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" for the same reason, if you're feeling up to a novel of his. Seriously, his writing style is pretty crazy, as are the ideas. It's a lovable crazy, though.

[arthwollipot]

arthwollipot: Oh, man, I envy you! I wish I could have that type of collection, but I'm a broke college student with very little room. Maybe someday...Trust me, it's not all it's cracked up to be. Sometimes I'll finish a book and decide to go out to the library to find something new to read. I stare at the shelves for five minutes and then walk back inside and pick up the latest Scientific American instead.

[RobRoy]

Pish-posh! Only cowards use the ignore list, as far as I'm concerned.

Agreed. It's part of the reason that I tolerate like your responses. :)

I'm tempted to list all the stuff I love (and fellate praise regularly, even here) to give fault to your selective reading, but since you're probably just taking the piss it's not worth the effort. :p

You cut right before I had caveated my own response. I did acknowledge that there are things you felate fawn over worship like. But you are correct, I was just noting your general character on these forums for a new member. Those who don't know you might think you're making a personal attack, which is simply not the case.

Of course then you went on to make my point for me in your next line:

But, seriously, I think there's something wrong with someone over the age of 16* who likes Ender's Game.

So thank you! :p As I said you can be harsh in your criticism, up to the point that folk might think you're including them when your spew venom at a target, but that's not (generally) the case. It just splashes around, and we have to call the janitor to clean. :D

But, seriously. I like Ender's Game. I like it enough that it has survived three purges of my library. I don't love it, but I found the notion interesting, and the story well told, and with some fun scenes and dialogue that I know I will re-read it at a later date.

Of course, this doesn't discount the concept that there is "something wrong" with me because of this, but I think there are better symptoms to prove that than simply liking and enjoying a title that you don't. :D

[RobRoy]

All the way to Australia? I am impressed. :)

It's true. I would. I really enjoy those titles, and it would be worth the trek to pick them up. I don't quite clear out the discount and used book stores when I find them, but enough that it makes my wife nervous.

Unfortunately that will never happen. Sorry.

I figured as much. I'm not the only one who loves thos DAW yellow-spine science fiction books.

Actually, I'm not. I've heard quite a lot about it over the years, and it seems to me of a style that I think I'd like. Without actually reading it I won't know. And if I can borrow it, I don't need to spend money on something I may not actually like.

I think you would like it. Gaiman is a pretty decent storyteller. I just checked on Amazon, and the trade hardbacks are going for $60+ each. I was wrong in that you cannot get them in a single volume though. I count four volumes which, if you buy new, will tally nearly $250 when you get all said and done.

Definately borrow them if you can.

[jimbob]

In the UK inter-library loans and the internet are one'd friend...

I have read lots of out-of-print books to my children.

David Eddings is good*, all his books differ ciobsiderably from each other (Well in the ones that I have read, the names change).





*Not really... I was stuck for some reading matter, and foolishly chose some David Eddings books, as opposed to a bus ticket. But of course, I still had to finish the little sods...

[Sunray Breaker]

China Mieville is a great contemporary author to check out.
It's absolutely amazing stuff. I won't go into too much detail because I've only read one of his books so far, but my husband is really, really into him. He has this great alternate reality that's very steampunk-esque fantasy, but he doesn't ruin it by trying to explain everything. He just kind of drops you into his world and everything is made clear through the context. Since all of the characters accept the reality of his world, why should he ruin the story trying to explain it to a newcomer (the reader)? It's fabulous and very meaty.

Agreed...I don't even read sci fi novels that much. But Mieville has a very unique and poetic writing style, his characters are complex and addictive. He also beautifully describes his surroundings and involves such complexities as political ideologies (for example in Perdido Street Station there are issues with union workers, mob boss influence, etc.)

After reading this book, I decided to get the book on tape. so that I could take a few random quotes and intertwine them with my music. I did the same thing with The Age Of Spiritual Machines by Kurzweil.

Mieville's best works would probably be

Perdido Street Station
The Scar
Iron Council
(The three above are part of a series)

King Rat - (which is a modern day retelling of the Pied Piper, only the pied piper is replaced with a dj that controls the masses with his music)

[Fireshadow]

Here is a fun website for anyone that likes to read. Just type in the name of your favorite author and see what happens.

http://www.literature-map.com/

Yeah, it was fun--but I really want to know where they get there comparisons. Putting in Terry Pratchett and having Douglas Adams close by made sense, but put in J.K. Rowling and your nearest match is Stephenie Meyer? And Roald Dahl isn't even on the page?

[gumboot]

I feel obliged to pimp the work of my fellow countryman, who has produced a very good and interesting series of fantasy novels:

Across The Face Of The World
In The Earth Abides The Flame
The Right Hand Of God

ETA. I should probably name the author! Russell Kirkpatrick.

[gtc]

I feel obliged to pimp the work of my fellow countryman, who has produced a very good and interesting series of fantasy novels:

Across The Face Of The World
In The Earth Abides The Flame
The Right Hand Of God

ETA. I should probably name the author! Russell Kirkpatrick.

Its for young adults but I quite liked 'Because we were travellers' by Jack Lasenby. It follows a group of nomads who travel around the central North Island of New Zealand an unknown amount of time after some sort of apocalypse (maybe nuclear war).

[Madalch]

If we're going to start recommendig the works of our compatriots, I must recommend Candace Jane Dorsey's Blue and Black Wine. I enjoyed the books, and used to live across the street from her.

[Darth Rotor]

GODDAMMIT!
I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly think there's any merit in Ender's Game. The plot is so unbelievably stupid, it's... gah! What the hell is wrong with you people? :(
Read it without the last chapter. Set in your mind that you are reading it during the Cold War.

It makes a lot of sense in that context. The follow on books I could have done without. It stood on its own, except when Card tossed in that cop out of a last chapter.

It was a fine work of dystopian literature up to that point.

DR

[gtc]

If we're going to start recommendig the works of our compatriots, I must recommend Candace Jane Dorsey's Blue and Black Wine. I enjoyed the books, and used to live across the street from her.

Jack Lasenby isn't famous enough for me, an Aussie, to claim him as one of our own.

If I was mentioning compatriots I would have plumped for Greg Egan.

[GreyICE]

Read it without the last chapter. Set in your mind that you are reading it during the Cold War.

It makes a lot of sense in that context. The follow on books I could have done without. It stood on its own, except when Card tossed in that cop out of a last chapter.

It was a fine work of dystopian literature up to that point.

DR

The last chapter is essential to the work. The point of the last chapter is that the root cause of the war was misunderstanding, but the war was unavoidable. Despite the entire thing being horribly pointless, with brutality on both sides, it couldn't be avoided. It's a dystopian picture of what two alien civilizations might do when they come in contact - neither meaning evil, both attempting only to do what seems natural to their society, but both inflicting incalculable harm in the process. Speaker for the Dead revisits the same issue of alien contact and mindsets, but in a rather lamer fashion, imho.

[Galileo]

Hello there.

I've been looking for good books in my two favourite genres, Fantasy and Science Fiction, ever since I finished A Feast for Crows. I've been floundering between various short books for a few months now, and I want a weighty series to get my teeth into. The problem is that most of the new books coming out in those two genres tend to be multi 1000 page book epic series. So, I don't particularly want to invest a large amount of time testing one of these books if it turns out to be poor later on.

So, can you guys suggest any good series for me to check out? I'm open to any type of books set in those two genres. Additionally, does anyone know if a Rotten Tomatoes type site exists for novels? I would be very interested in looking at one. Thanks in advance.

The best science fiction book ever is 'The Mysterious Island' by Jules Verne.

Snap it up!

[Leif Roar]

I'm one of a quiet minority who find Gaiman to be terribly overrated. A friend gave me a copy of American Gods which I've wanted to read for some time because some good friends of mine were raving about it a while back.

Gaiman is better when he writes short. I liked American Gods, but it's got a lot of problems as a novel. You might want to pick up Stardust, one of his short story collections or even some of the comics he has authored, all of which play to his strengths.

[aerosolben]

The last chapter is essential to the work. The point of the last chapter is that the root cause of the war was misunderstanding, but the war was unavoidable. Despite the entire thing being horribly pointless, with brutality on both sides, it couldn't be avoided. It's a dystopian picture of what two alien civilizations might do when they come in contact - neither meaning evil, both attempting only to do what seems natural to their society, but both inflicting incalculable harm in the process. Speaker for the Dead revisits the same issue of alien contact and mindsets, but in a rather lamer fashion, imho.
I agree - the last chapter elevates the book. I thought Speaker for the Dead was a better exploration of the theme, actually, given that it is developed throughout the novel - a more nuanced work overall (though it lacks the strong conceptual base of Ender's Game).

An issue I think many people have with Ender's Game is (IIRC, its been a while since I've read it) the flat, sometimes staid, prose in which it is written. I think the story is strong enough to make it worthwhile anyway, but I agree it is a weakness.

[Morrigan]

The plot in Ender's Game is so mind-boggingly dumb, it's insulting. How anyone can say it's a "strong" story is beyond me.


Remember: it's about a child who is so gifted, that he figures out he can move his units in more directions when there's no gravity (what a GENIUS!), and having such a rare gift makes him worthy of leading the ultimate simulated no wait it's REAL after all haha fooled you!, final battle against the Big Bad alien -- called the "buggers" -- instead of experienced, adult military commanders.

And this horrifically lame climax comes after pages and pages and pages of horrifically lame "game room" battle simulations.


I hate to go all 4chan, but, LOLWUT?

Just goes to show that the Hugo is a trophy as worthless as a Grammy.

[jimbob]

The plot in Ender's Game is so mind-boggingly dumb, it's insulting. How anyone can say it's a "strong" story is beyond me.


Remember: it's about a child who is so gifted, that he figures out he can move his units in more directions when there's no gravity (what a GENIUS!), and having such a rare gift makes him worthy of leading the ultimate simulated no wait it's REAL after all haha fooled you!, final battle against the Big Bad alien -- called the "buggers" -- instead of experienced, adult military commanders.

And this horrifically lame climax comes after pages and pages and pages of horrifically lame "game room" battle simulations.


I hate to go all 4chan, but, LOLWUT?

Just goes to show that the Hugo is a trophy as worthless as a Grammy.
But you have to like Orson Scott Card's politics and religious philosophy

:duck:

Maybe less unsavoury than Piers Anthony...

[GreyICE]

The plot in Ender's Game is so mind-boggingly dumb, it's insulting. How anyone can say it's a "strong" story is beyond me.


Remember: it's about a child who is so gifted, that he figures out he can move his units in more directions when there's no gravity (what a GENIUS!), and having such a rare gift makes him worthy of leading the ultimate simulated no wait it's REAL after all haha fooled you!, final battle against the Big Bad alien -- called the "buggers" -- instead of experienced, adult military commanders.

And this horrifically lame climax comes after pages and pages and pages of horrifically lame "game room" battle simulations.


I hate to go all 4chan, but, LOLWUT?

Just goes to show that the Hugo is a trophy as worthless as a Grammy.Actually, it's interesting you bring this up. Thinking in three dimensions has been a gigantic problem for people, and something they extensively train airplane pilots to work with. The problems of thinking without gravity are intensely magnified.

The problems with thinking without gravity are even greater. People who could remove their gravity-based 2 dimensional thinking and replace it with gravity-free 3 dimensional tactics are going to be exceedingly rare.

Card was actually being realistic - chances are such people are going to be one in a million, at best. Saying "oh, there's no gravity" and imagining formations and tactics in a gravity free environment are nothing alike.

It really actually just demonstrates a hole in your knowledge and understanding of what we've gone through to make airplane pilots who can do even a fraction of what that would entail - remember, they have a gravity field to work with. Zero gravity is immensely counter-intuitive, as beyond the three dimensional, there's the problem of mass without weight.

[D'rok]

All of the sci-fi stuff in Card's work is just window dressing. I don't think he is a very good writer, and he appears to be a monumental douchebag in real life, but his modus operandi is to use sci-fi tropes as the means to address interesting moral questions. The moral question in Ender's Game is simple: does morality depend on intention? Card's answer is, obviously, yes. One can commit genocide and be completely morally innocent as long as there is no intention. In other words, for Card, acts aren't inherently moral or imoral (they are, in fact, amoral), but intentions are.

I completely disgree with that position, and I resent Card's literary attempts to manipulate my sympathies in that regard. Luckily, he is unskillful and transparent, so there isn't much danger that he is going to trick me or anyone who reads closely.

Still, I think he is worth reading just to see how he deals with these sorts of questions. The Worthing Saga is another example. He addresses the contradictions and conflicts regarding an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God; free will; and the presence of suffering. Once again, I disagree with his conclusions, but it is worth reading just to see how he handles it.

[Dunstan]

All of the sci-fi stuff in Card's work is just window dressing. I don't think he is a very good writer, and he appears to be a monumental douchebag in real life, but his modus operandi is to use sci-fi tropes as the means to address interesting moral questions. The moral question in Ender's Game is simple: does morality depend on intention? Card's answer is, obviously, yes. One can commit genocide and be completely morally innocent as long as there is no intention. In other words, for Card, acts aren't inherently moral or imoral (they are, in fact, amoral), but intentions are.

I completely disgree with that position, and I resent Card's literary attempts to manipulate my sympathies in that regard. Luckily, he is unskillful and transparent, so there isn't much danger that he is going to trick me or anyone who reads closely.


Here (http://www4.ncsu.edu/~tenshi/Killer_000.htm) is an interesting essay on the subject.

[D'rok]

Here (http://www4.ncsu.edu/%7Etenshi/Killer_000.htm) is an interesting essay on the subject.

Good stuff. I don't buy the Hitler argument either.

[RobRoy]

Actually, it's interesting you bring this up. Thinking in three dimensions has been a gigantic problem for people, and something they extensively train airplane pilots to work with. The problems of thinking without gravity are intensely magnified.

The problems with thinking without gravity are even greater. People who could remove their gravity-based 2 dimensional thinking and replace it with gravity-free 3 dimensional tactics are going to be exceedingly rare.

Card was actually being realistic - chances are such people are going to be one in a million, at best. Saying "oh, there's no gravity" and imagining formations and tactics in a gravity free environment are nothing alike.

This was what I was going to say as well. We see this flaw all the time in all kinds of entertainment. I was watching The Clone Wars (animated, "pilot" movie for the television series) last night and noticed that the space fight scene reflects two-dimensional thinking on the part of the animators: both sides aligned their ships alone a single horizontal line during the initial face-off. Even in a gravity environment, fighter pilots would never go into a dog-fight in a single line like that.

But yes, the fact that Ender could, almost immediately change his entire perspective regarding zero-g combat situations without any training or prior encounters was so extraordinary it almost breaks the bounds of reality. But then Ender was supposed to be very unique.

[arthwollipot]

I actually liked Ender's Game. The two followups not so much, but the first one was okay.

Right now I'm reading Little Fuzzy by H. Beam Piper and thoroughly enjoying it. The story revolves around a race that is on the very border of sapience, and explores the subject quite well.

[RobRoy]

But you have to like Orson Scott Card's politics and religious philosophy

I don't know about his politics, but you can be almost completely ignorant of his LDS subtext and get along quite well. Ender's Game seems to be his best work. I've read some of his other peices, like Enchantment and they just don't work as well.

[GreyICE]

All of the sci-fi stuff in Card's work is just window dressing. I don't think he is a very good writer, and he appears to be a monumental douchebag in real life, but his modus operandi is to use sci-fi tropes as the means to address interesting moral questions. The moral question in Ender's Game is simple: does morality depend on intention? Card's answer is, obviously, yes. One can commit genocide and be completely morally innocent as long as there is no intention. In other words, for Card, acts aren't inherently moral or imoral (they are, in fact, amoral), but intentions are.

I completely disgree with that position, and I resent Card's literary attempts to manipulate my sympathies in that regard. Luckily, he is unskillful and transparent, so there isn't much danger that he is going to trick me or anyone who reads closely.

Still, I think he is worth reading just to see how he deals with these sorts of questions. The Worthing Saga is another example. He addresses the contradictions and conflicts regarding an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God; free will; and the presence of suffering. Once again, I disagree with his conclusions, but it is worth reading just to see how he handles it.
Honestly, you might think I'm over defensive, but I'm actually just annoyed at the ignorance here. Card has a masters in English. When it comes to literary devices, he is anything BUT untrained, as you charge.

I think what you missed, because you're being overly paranoid, is that he's not actually trying to manipulate you. He's just presenting a view that disagrees with yours. Because it disagrees with yours, and does so in a convincing manner, you'd like to dismiss it as a clumsy attempt at manipulation.

But really, he's anything but clumsy when it comes to the language, so I'd suggest he's just not manipulative.

[D'rok]

Honestly, you might think I'm over defensive, but I'm actually just annoyed at the ignorance here. Card has a masters in English. When it comes to literary devices, he is anything BUT untrained, as you charge.

Where did I charge that he is untrained? I said that he is not a very good writer. One can be trained and still produce crappy work.

I think what you missed, because you're being overly paranoid, is that he's not actually trying to manipulate you. He's just presenting a view that disagrees with yours. Because it disagrees with yours, and does so in a convincing manner, you'd like to dismiss it as a clumsy attempt at manipulation.A convincing manner? I am thoroughly unconvinced. I find Ender's Game to be a puerile and juvenile attempt at producing conviction. It was a sustained appeal to emotion. I refer you to the essay to which Dunstan linked.

But really, he's anything but clumsy when it comes to the language, so I'd suggest he's just not manipulative.Does not follow. You argue that he writes effectively, therefore he is not attempting to manipulate. If he is as good a writer as you find him to be, and his writing is as convincing as you claim it to be, then it follows that he quite likely is an excellent manipulator. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that the moral subtext in the book is not really there.

[GreyICE]

Where did I charge that he is untrained? I said that he is not a very good writer. One can be trained and still produce crappy work.

I completely disgree with that position, and I resent Card's literary attempts to manipulate my sympathies in that regard. Luckily, he is unskillful and transparent, so there isn't much danger that he is going to trick me or anyone who reads closely.

I have no idea where you said that.

A convincing manner? I am thoroughly unconvinced. I find Ender's Game to be a puerile and juvenile attempt at producing conviction. It was a sustained appeal to emotion. I refer you to the essay to which Dunstan linked.

Does not follow. You argue that he writes effectively, therefore he is not attempting to manipulate. If he is as good a writer as you find him to be, and his writing is as convincing as you claim it to be, then it follows that he quite likely is an excellent manipulator. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that the moral subtext in the book is not really there. Fair enough. You don't have to be convinced. But why do you think he's attempting to manipulate you? It follows that he has the skill to manipulate you, but skill and application of skill are quite different. A Marine probably has the skill to kill anyone he encounters in a random city, this does not make all Marines serial killers. One can have the skill to kill, and not use it.

One can have the skill to manipulate and... not use it.

You state he attempts to manipulate, but really transparently. You conclude that he is really bad at manipulation and writing. I submit that you've begged the question with your premise.

[D'rok]

I have no idea where you said that.
Which of those bolded words is "untrained". Nonetheless, I didn't know that he has a Masters in English. They don't give those away for nothing, so I have to give him some credit.
Fair enough. You don't have to be convinced. But why do you think he's attempting to manipulate you? It follows that he has the skill to manipulate you, but skill and application of skill are quite different. A Marine probably has the skill to kill anyone he encounters in a random city, this does not make all Marines serial killers. One can have the skill to kill, and not use it.

One can have the skill to manipulate and... not use it.

You state he attempts to manipulate, but really transparently. You conclude that he is really bad at manipulation and writing. I submit that you've begged the question with your premise.

Dunstan linked to an essay that started with a quote from Card:

"There's always moral instruction whether the writer inserts it deliberately or not. The least effective moral instruction in fiction is that which is consciously inserted. Partly because it won't reflect the storyteller's true beliefs, it will only reflect what he BELIEVES he believes, or what he thinks he should believe or what he's been persuaded of.

But when you write without deliberately expressing moral teachings, the morals that show up are the ones you actually live by. The beliefs that you don't even think to question, that you don't even notice-- those will show up. And that tells much more truth about what you believe than your deliberate moral machinations."

Taken at face value, Card is saying that he is unintentionally providing moral instruction in his fiction. I don't buy the "unintentionally" part one bit. As 'Uncle Orson" in his weekly column, he devotes a lot of time and a lot of words to crystal clear moral instruction - especially when it comes to homosexuality. The man has an agenda. A vile one, at that.

Regarding the quality of his writing...well...we'll have to agree to disagree. But I do consider The Worthing Saga to be much higher quality than Ender's Game.

[GreyICE]

Dunstan linked to an essay that started with a quote from Card:

"There's always moral instruction whether the writer inserts it deliberately or not. The least effective moral instruction in fiction is that which is consciously inserted. Partly because it won't reflect the storyteller's true beliefs, it will only reflect what he BELIEVES he believes, or what he thinks he should believe or what he's been persuaded of.

But when you write without deliberately expressing moral teachings, the morals that show up are the ones you actually live by. The beliefs that you don't even think to question, that you don't even notice-- those will show up. And that tells much more truth about what you believe than your deliberate moral machinations."

Taken at face value, Card is saying that he is unintentionally providing moral instruction in his fiction. I don't buy the "unintentionally" part one bit. As 'Uncle Orson" in his weekly column, he devotes a lot of time and a lot of words to crystal clear moral instruction - especially when it comes to homosexuality. The man has an agenda. A vile one, at that.

Regarding the quality of his writing...well...we'll have to agree to disagree. But I do consider The Worthing Saga to be much higher quality than Ender's Game.

I can't argue with his premise that an author's beliefs and values will influence their work.

Nevertheless I think you're reading a bit much into what he wrote there. In the introduction to the later version's of Ender's game, he does mention that there are layers to Ender's Game beyond the surface layers, and that he did use literary devices in the book.

I disagree with many of his views. That alone cannot be a reason for me to dislike and dismiss the man, if I only read those whom I agree with, I risk becoming very close-minded indeed. When I've read his blog, I find he's bought into many weird theories and viewpoints. That makes me distrust him, but I don't really dislike him.

In the end, I have to say, I enjoy Ender's Game for what it is, and I find not an ounce of deception in the man. I don't think he's ever been anything but honest about what he thinks and feels.

In any case, I'm going to leave off with these words from his election-day entry:

I knew what she was talking about. That is universally the opinion of my friends -- no matter which candidate they're voting for. The ones who oppose Obama simply believe that McCain is a better choice. The ones who support Obama do so because of how they perceive his ideals, his character, or his platform -- again, the better choice.

My friends are all thoughtful citizens who cast their votes on the basis of criteria that transcend trivialities like race or gender.

There are surely people in this country who let the color of Obama's skin shape their perceptions -- either rejecting every bit of positive information about him, or rejecting every bit of negative information, because of his race.

There are always people who support or reject candidates for really dumb reasons. Yet still democracy muddles through.

I don't know how the election will come out, as I write this. But I do know that whoever wins, I'm prouder of my country than ever before, because a man with a black African-born father and a white American-born mother could seek and obtain a major party's nomination, and run a campaign that was either victorious or very, very close to being so.

And no matter how it comes out, I'm not moving to Canada. I'll be sticking around to keep on putting in my two cents' worth -- because that's what you do in a democracy. When the votes -- or the rules -- go against you, you swallow hard and vow to work harder next time.


I'd be a lot happier with our political process if more people thought like this, whether they agreed with me or not. That's why, despite myviews on his views I don't dislike him. And I do dislike so many others.

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2008-11-04-1.html

[Dunstan]

This is getting off-topic, but Orson Scott Card isn't so fond of democracy as the above quote claims. The prospect of gay marriage is enough for him to advocate overthrowing the government.

How long before married people answer the dictators thus: Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society where they will expect to marry in their turn.

Biological imperatives trump laws. American government cannot fight against marriage and hope to endure. If the Constitution is defined in such a way as to destroy the privileged position of marriage, it is that insane Constitution, not marriage, that will die.


Links to the original Card column seem to have gone dead, but it's quoted here (http://site.pfaw.org/site/PageServer?pagename=media_2009_04_nom_board_member _advocates_overthrow_of_government)

[Madalch]

Right now I'm reading Little Fuzzy by H. Beam Piper and thoroughly enjoying it. The story revolves around a race that is on the very border of sapience, and explores the subject quite well.
Oooh- I remember that series! Loved it!

Exteefee!

[Mar\/in]

In the fantasy vein I love Fritz Leiber and Michael Moorcock. (I think it's worth reading the old-timers just to know who the new guys are ripping off. For instance, I enjoyed American Gods but couldn't help thinking I'd read a version of that story before in Leiber's Swords and Ice Magic.) Try The Wanderer by Leiber for some old-school disaster-porn SF with a bit of kinky furry-love on the side. Moorcock's Stormbringer makes The One Ring look like a wuss.

Considering that P.G. Wodehouse's characters live in what might as well be a kind of fantasy-land, and considering how much he influences people like Douglas Adams and Terry Pratchett and Charles Stross, it's probably worth reading him as well. (Well, he's worth reading regardless. Wodehouse is wonderful. But I think he's an important guy in a sneaky way in SF and fantasy, too.)

In SF I've recently discovered Samuel R. Delaney. Babel-17 is a wonderful book, and it seems to me to anticipate a lot of what's going on in Snow Crash. It's also that rare SF novel that includes poetry as a theme where the poetry doesn't completely suck ass.

I really enjoyed David Brin's Uplift series. Bruce Sterling's Holy Fire is good. Hal Clement's Half-Life (no relation to the video game) is brilliant and heartbreaking.

[RobRoy]

Moorcock's Stormbringer makes The One Ring look like a wuss.

Well, that what he tried to do. Considering how he wraps up the series, I'd say he failed utterly. But it was worthwhile to read the guy.

I really enjoyed David Brin's Uplift series. Bruce Sterling's Holy Fire is good. Hal Clement's Half-Life (no relation to the video game) is brilliant and heartbreaking.

Brin is very good, and carries a narrative extremely well. This isn't always the case in hard SF.

[Tyooby]

I've consistently heard good things about China Mieville. I may have to check him out.

I've started in Perdido Street Station and I like it, but my reading gets slowed down considerably because I have to look up a lot of words I've never seen before. English is not my first language (Dutch is), but usually I only have to look up words sporadically.

Here's my question for native english speakers: do you think even many native speakers have to look up a word every now and then, reading Mieville? In other words, does Mieville use an unusually broad vocabulary?

I'm especially curious about this since I'm trying to become proficient enough in English to write prose in this language, but I'm not sure how daunting this task is.

[GreyICE]

I've started in Perdido Street Station and I like it, but my reading gets slowed down considerably because I have to look up a lot of words I've never seen before. English is not my first language (Dutch is), but usually I only have to look up words sporadically.

Here's my question for native english speakers: do you think even many native speakers have to look up a word every now and then, reading Mieville? In other words, does Mieville use an unusually broad vocabulary?

I'm especially curious about this since I'm trying to become proficient enough in English to write prose in this language, but I'm not sure how daunting this task is.I've had unfamiliar words, and my vocabulary is considered in the top 5%, easy (I'm not actually boasting here, I'm just stating facts).

He's not the easiest read in the world. But very good books.

[Tyooby]

I've had unfamiliar words, and my vocabulary is considered in the top 5%, easy (I'm not actually boasting here, I'm just stating facts).

He's not the easiest read in the world. But very good books.

Thanks GreyICE, glad to hear that!

[odorousrex]

I'd recommend The Iron Dragon's Daughter by Michael Swanwick, or his collection of stories called The Dog Said Bow Wow.

They alternate between scifi AND fantasy in the same stories (you're head will spin the first time you read one of his stories (i.e. the witches perform and arcane healing ritual on our hero, placing poultices of mud on his wound and blowing mystic smoke over his body to lull him into a healing trance, and then inject 20cc's of aterphine to wake him up) hehe

He explores a lot of nihilistic themes though - not for everyone.

[Mar\/in]

Well, that what he tried to do. Considering how he wraps up the series, I'd say he failed utterly. But it was worthwhile to read the guy.

Hm, I think you're probably right. But I think the reason you're right has to do with the characters and not the object. Tolkien gives us a world of idealized friendships and near-ideal heroes which the Ring corrupts, and its horror is a function of the things it destroys. It represents a local aberration within a crypto-Christian universe that is designed to be beautiful and good.

Moorcock's characters aren't nearly as precious or compelling as individuals, and they live in a universe where beings like Stormbringer represent part of the infrastructure of reality itself. In the universe of Elric, if I remember correctly, the presence of Stormbringer and his kind turns out to be normal.

Dramatically, the Ring is more horrifying. (And LotR has a far more unified and coherent structure than the Elric stories.) But a universe in which Stormbringer and his kin are part of the management is a more dreadful existential prospect, I think.

[arthwollipot]

Hello there.

I've been looking for good books in my two favourite genres, Fantasy and Science Fiction, ever since I finished A Feast for Crows. I've been floundering between various short books for a few months now, and I want a weighty series to get my teeth into. The problem is that most of the new books coming out in those two genres tend to be multi 1000 page book epic series. So, I don't particularly want to invest a large amount of time testing one of these books if it turns out to be poor later on.

So, can you guys suggest any good series for me to check out? I'm open to any type of books set in those two genres. Additionally, does anyone know if a Rotten Tomatoes type site exists for novels? I would be very interested in looking at one. Thanks in advance.There's one thing that's been nagging me about this thread. Exactly what do you mean by modern fantasy and SF? Last ten years? Twenty?

[Praktik]

I've started in Perdido Street Station and I like it, but my reading gets slowed down considerably because I have to look up a lot of words I've never seen before. English is not my first language (Dutch is), but usually I only have to look up words sporadically.

Here's my question for native english speakers: do you think even many native speakers have to look up a word every now and then, reading Mieville? In other words, does Mieville use an unusually broad vocabulary?

I'm especially curious about this since I'm trying to become proficient enough in English to write prose in this language, but I'm not sure how daunting this task is.

Ya - I think there were a few times I had to look something up - and like GreyICE my vocab is not too shabby either!

[Hastur]

No one's brought up Glen Cook's Black Company series? I read the North omni (the first 3 books) and I was impressed enough to think about getting the South omni.

[RobRoy]

Dramatically, the Ring is more horrifying. (And LotR has a far more unified and coherent structure than the Elric stories.) But a universe in which Stormbringer and his kin are part of the management is a more dreadful existential prospect, I think.

Only if you're from a universe that lacks Stormbringer and similar items. As you point out, they are a natural part of the structure of that narrative, and thus a general denizen is far more aware of the concept of corrupting influence and evil-incarnate. Whereas in Middle-Earth, the Ring and its kin are unnatural attempts to work on the natural world. They were rare in the extreme, exclusive to a very limited few, rather than the world in general. Introduction, or reintroduction, of the Rings of Power is what sets up the thousands of years of struggle and strife. Stormbringer, Elric, et.al were just natural extensions of their world.

[RobRoy]

No one's brought up Glen Cook's Black Company series? I read the North omni (the first 3 books) and I was impressed enough to think about getting the South omni.

I was in B&N this weekend and some them in an omnibus edition, but I wasn't certain if they were worth picking up. How do you rate them overall? Am I looking at George R.R. Martin depth and characterization, a popcorn David Gemmell hack-n-slash, or something inbetween?

[jimbob]

David Gemmel: he had one more plot than David Eddings...

[Madalch]

I was in B&N this weekend and some them in an omnibus edition, but I wasn't certain if they were worth picking up. How do you rate them overall? Am I looking at George R.R. Martin depth and characterization, a popcorn David Gemmell hack-n-slash, or something inbetween?
I read only the first one, and found it didn't appeal to me.

That was fifteen years ago, so don't ask me what I didn't like about it.

[RobRoy]

David Gemmel: he had one more plot than David Eddings...

Yeah, fantasy and awesomeness! :D

[Jason Smith]

I'd recommend The Iron Dragon's Daughter by Michael Swanwick, or his collection of stories called The Dog Said Bow Wow.

They alternate between scifi AND fantasy in the same stories (you're head will spin the first time you read one of his stories (i.e. the witches perform and arcane healing ritual on our hero, placing poultices of mud on his wound and blowing mystic smoke over his body to lull him into a healing trance, and then inject 20cc's of aterphine to wake him up) hehe

He explores a lot of nihilistic themes though - not for everyone.

Seconded! Michael Swanwick is a very good science fiction/fantasy writer. If you're going to get into his short stories, and you should, also consider Tales of Old Earth and Gravity's Angels.

If you're in the mood for a novel, Iron Dragon's Daughter might not be the best place to start because it is very nihilistic. I humbly recommend Bones of the Earth -- A select group of paleontologists is given the opportunity to travel back in time to study dinosaurs first hand. The time travel technology is a gift from aliens from the future, who are using the gift as a method for studying humanity. The main villains are the creationists, who can't accept that time travel destroys their mythology. I'm not a big fan of time travel stories, but this one's pretty dang good.

Another good Swanwick novel is Jack Faust -- a retelling of the Faust story. In this verison, Faust is given unlimited knowledge, but nobody pays any attention until he finds military applications.

Iron Dragon's Daughter (and its sequel, The Dragons of Babel) do get major points because they turn a lot of fantasy sterotypes on their ear -- a society where all the elves are evil bastards. (If you have any D&D experience, all the elves are Drow who live above ground.)

Jason

[Morrigan]

No one's brought up Glen Cook's Black Company series? I read the North omni (the first 3 books) and I was impressed enough to think about getting the South omni.

I was in B&N this weekend and some them in an omnibus edition, but I wasn't certain if they were worth picking up. How do you rate them overall? Am I looking at George R.R. Martin depth and characterization, a popcorn David Gemmell hack-n-slash, or something inbetween?

Well, I had bumped the old thread the other day, talking about exactly that, but since no one pays attention to me, I'll go sit in a corner and cry.

...Or maybe I'll just link the post and repost it. ;)
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5024247#post5024247

I'm far along the third book of the Black Company trilogy, and I've revised my initial lukewarm opinion (as I suspected I would, actually, but not quite that much): it does kick ass after all. The second volume actually really grabbed me; I couldn't stop reading about that poor bastard Shed's misfortunes. I took several weeks reading the first volume but finished book 2 in like 2 or 3 evenings, and now that we see a bit more of the Lady (Bomanz's story tidbits were cool too), I'm actually quite interested in where this is all going. I just hope the ending doesn't disappoint.

An update: I actually finished the first three books since posting this, and I didn't think the ending was disappointing. A tad anti-climatic, but not bad at all, and good enough to make me want to read his other works in the series.

RobRoy - it's neither, really. There's scarcely any hack-and-slash at all, to be sure. I mean, there's action and violence but it's always straight to the point, not pages and pages about whoever kicking someone's ass.
As for characterization, again it's nothing like GRRM. It's somewhat limited in scope - many characters have detailed, nuanced and colourful personalities, but we know little about the characters' pasts, their inner motivations, and so on, like we do with GRRM's characters.

What it does have in common with GRRM is the bleak, dark setting and the greyness, the lack of black-and-white characters (except maybe the Dominator... but then we really know NOTHING about him), and his twists on the normally-stereotypical "prophecy" trapping. The first book is especially depressing at times, though I found the other two more uplifting for some reason.

[RobRoy]

Thanks Morrigan. For the record, I don't think people ignore you . . . I mean I always look at your avatar when you post and wonder how much it mirrors you IRL. :D

[Praktik]

Read the first David Keck book, In the Eye of Heaven a few weeks ago.

Really enjoyed the medieval setting - the dukes and holdings and heriditary lands and all that.

Just had a bit of trouble from time to time with the dialogue and the narration - found it confusing at times what a given character was referring to and it felt like there were "jumps" in the flow where the author skipped a beat or two.

That being said I liked it enough to grab the second one, so we'll see how it develops. Interesting world so far and there's some meat there, I just need to see how its gonna come together before I can give it an honest rating.

[Praktik]

Oh and read McCarthy's "The Road" after in about three sittings.

That one blew me way. Holy crap.

What a stunner.

[RobRoy]

Oh and read McCarthy's "The Road" after in about three sittings.

That one blew me way. Holy crap.

What a stunner.

You know the movie is comming out soon with Viggo Mortenson in the father's role?

[Dunstan]

Here's something I was thinking about the other day. One of the strengths of sci-fi as a genre is that it allows authors to ask "how would the world be different if...." But so many sci-fi works aren't content to just make one or two small changes. Instead of just having one particular paranormal/technological/magical ability, there's usually a whole bunch.

For example, if telepathy existed, it would dramatically remake our society. How could anything remain private or confidential? Would we use telepaths in courts to determine guilt or innocence? Would telepaths be put in concentration camps, or be the wealthiest members of society? The implications are massive. But most sci-fi works seem bored by all that, and say, "oh yeah, telepathy exists. And so do telekinesis and precognition and talking to the dead and flying and shooting laser beams from your eyes and...."

So my question is, are there any sci-fi books that take one wrinkle and really run with it? (Telepathy was just one example; don't get hung up on that.)

The question probably doesn't really apply to fantasy, although I think even there authors sometimes clutter up their worlds with too much "cool stuff" instead of developing the fantastical elements they've already introduced. The best example of this I can think of is David Farland's "The Runelords" series. It starts with an interesting concept: magic that allows people to sacrifice their own sight, strength, beauty, etc. to boost the capability of another. You could spend a lot of time exploring the societal consequences and ethical dilemnas of such magic. But Farland seems to get bored with the idea halfway through the first book, and suddenly there's all sorts of other magic and Earth Kings and reavers and it starts to seem like just another fantasy saga about the Chosen One Who Must Save All Humanity From a Dire Threat.

[gtc]

So my question is, are there any sci-fi books that take one wrinkle and really run with it? (Telepathy was just one example; don't get hung up on that.)

This short story by S.M Stirling (http://www.webscription.net/chapters/1597801140/1597801140.htm)(you can read the whole thing online).

The wrinkle isn't made obvious for the first few hundred words so I will put it in a spoiler but he has really run with what he sees as the possible implications.

Super low cost energy

[GreyICE]

Here's something I was thinking about the other day. One of the strengths of sci-fi as a genre is that it allows authors to ask "how would the world be different if...." But so many sci-fi works aren't content to just make one or two small changes. Instead of just having one particular paranormal/technological/magical ability, there's usually a whole bunch.

For example, if telepathy existed, it would dramatically remake our society. How could anything remain private or confidential? Would we use telepaths in courts to determine guilt or innocence? Would telepaths be put in concentration camps, or be the wealthiest members of society? The implications are massive. But most sci-fi works seem bored by all that, and say, "oh yeah, telepathy exists. And so do telekinesis and precognition and talking to the dead and flying and shooting laser beams from your eyes and...."

So my question is, are there any sci-fi books that take one wrinkle and really run with it? (Telepathy was just one example; don't get hung up on that.)

The question probably doesn't really apply to fantasy, although I think even there authors sometimes clutter up their worlds with too much "cool stuff" instead of developing the fantastical elements they've already introduced. The best example of this I can think of is David Farland's "The Runelords" series. It starts with an interesting concept: magic that allows people to sacrifice their own sight, strength, beauty, etc. to boost the capability of another. You could spend a lot of time exploring the societal consequences and ethical dilemnas of such magic. But Farland seems to get bored with the idea halfway through the first book, and suddenly there's all sorts of other magic and Earth Kings and reavers and it starts to seem like just another fantasy saga about the Chosen One Who Must Save All Humanity From a Dire Threat.

Altered Carbon - the implications of being able to 'backup' your body.

The Golden Age trilogy - the implications of a society that can alter their own thought processes.

Those two come to mind immediately. I'll add to this. Really recommend The Golden Age, if nothing else because it's NOT dystopian, but is still very, very interesting.

[Madalch]

This short story by S.M Stirling (http://www.webscription.net/chapters/1597801140/1597801140.htm)(you can read the whole thing online).

The wrinkle isn't made obvious for the first few hundred words so I will put it in a spoiler but he has really run with what he sees as the possible implications.

Super low cost energy

What? A Stirling engine?

[Praktik]

You know the movie is comming out soon with Viggo Mortenson in the father's role?

Yes, with director of The Proposition.

Sounds great.

Wanted to read it before the movie so I didn't put viggo's face on the dad.

Also so I could warm up on the McCarthy vibe soz I could succeed on my 2nd attempt to start the border trilogy.

[dasmiller]

So my question is, are there any sci-fi books that take one wrinkle and really run with it? (Telepathy was just one example; don't get hung up on that.)


To me, SF should be about exploring the implications of various possibilities. If it's not doing that, then it's 'normal' fiction set in an SF universe. And that's exactly what a lot of (IMHO) bad SF is. And when you're writing a story that's not terribly interesting, so you've thrown in spaceships and time travel and sentient mountains etc, it's seductively easy to think that "if some is good, more must be better!" So you keep going, and when it's convenient for the plot, someone will have telepathy, and they'll find a city of talking dinosaurs, who will teach them how to teleport, etc etc.
It's taking me great effort to resist going off on a rant here . . .

Anyway, have you tried Vernor Vinge? He seems to take a smaller number of defensible assumptions and then really does try to develop the society that would go with it.


ETA: 'Mainstream' can go the same way. Imagine a story about a small commuter plane that crashes in the ocean, with 8 survivors in a boat trying to make it to safety. Now imagine the made-for-TV-movie, and you just know that the 8 survivors will include a terrorist on his way to blow something up, the FBI agent who's chasing him but doesn't know which passenger is the terrorist, the retired football star who was injured at the peak of his career under suspicious circumstances, the rich executive who was on his way to some critical business deal to screw over someone else while doing some terrible environmental damage, the beautiful young woman and her critically ill mother who needs to have her operation within 24 hours or she'll DIE, etc etc. It's never just "Jim, the manager of a plumbing supply store in Pataskala."

[supercorgi]

Read Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion and then stop; the others aren't nearly as good. Or even read Hyperion and stop, since it's the real standout of the four volumes.

I've got to agree with that. The first Hyperion books were great, the other's weren't bad but didn't stand up to the goodness of the first.

Dan Simmons Illiurm was great but it's sequel fell sort of short of the promise.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Altered Carbon - the implications of being able to 'backup' your body.

The Golden Age trilogy - the implications of a society that can alter their own thought processes.

Those two come to mind immediately. I'll add to this. Really recommend The Golden Age, if nothing else because it's NOT dystopian, but is still very, very interesting.

C.J Cherryh's Rider at the Gate is pretty much a what-if about humans on a planet with telepathic wildlife. It's pretty good too.

[Ixion]

Yes, with director of The Proposition.

Sounds great.

Wanted to read it before the movie so I didn't put viggo's face on the dad.

Also so I could warm up on the McCarthy vibe soz I could succeed on my 2nd attempt to start the border trilogy.

I read The Road about two months ago. My reaction is 'meh'.

I watched The Proposition last night. I didn't like it, so between the book and the director, I am not expecting much from the movie.

[supercorgi]

Ursual K. Le Guin

And yes, she did write other books than the 'tombs of atuan'.
(the wizard from earthsee-series)



I loved the Wizard of Earthsea series - short and terribly charming. A quick read but full of some nice ideas and imagery. It holds a special place in my heart.

[supercorgi]

Larry Niven - Ringworld

Most of the Niven/Pournelle books are always quite good - I'm always amazed when two writers can cooperate and write such good books - Lucifer's Hammer, Mote in God's Eye, The Gripping Hand -- all good reads. Vernor Vinge also has some good stuff - A Deepness in the Sky - comes to mind.

[supercorgi]

I just read David Eddings' "Ruby Knight" series. Wow, was that ever similar to the Belgariad.

I guess at least in this one, the characters weren't complaining that it was too much like the last epic.

The problem with Eddings, although his stories can be entertaining, but he uses the same characters (I guess you could call them archetypes) but they're sketches of real people. Sort of D&D character classes.

[supercorgi]

For more serious fantasy, I'd recommend Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series. Lots of intrigue and some kinky sex - what's not to like?

Read that series and found it interesting how she could turn a masochist into a heroine.

Tad Williams does some great stuff as well - for a good standalone, I'd go with The Flower War.

I like Tad Williams, even though his first novel, Chaser's Tail, was fun (although it had a very disappointing ending). The Flower War is an interesting stand alone novel.

[supercorgi]

The last chapter is essential to the work. The point of the last chapter is that the root cause of the war was misunderstanding, but the war was unavoidable. Despite the entire thing being horribly pointless, with brutality on both sides, it couldn't be avoided. It's a dystopian picture of what two alien civilizations might do when they come in contact - neither meaning evil, both attempting only to do what seems natural to their society, but both inflicting incalculable harm in the process. Speaker for the Dead revisits the same issue of alien contact and mindsets, but in a rather lamer fashion, imho.

I did enjoy Speaker for the Dead - I thought the life cycle of the native species pretty interesting and the misunderstanding of their different world views (and how easy it is to understand different cultural practices - especially between different species) rather interesting.

[supercorgi]

Here's something I was thinking about the other day. One of the strengths of sci-fi as a genre is that it allows authors to ask "how would the world be different if...." But so many sci-fi works aren't content to just make one or two small changes. Instead of just having one particular paranormal/technological/magical ability, there's usually a whole bunch.
.....
So my question is, are there any sci-fi books that take one wrinkle and really run with it? (Telepathy was just one example; don't get hung up on that.)



I think Nivens Wizard short stories may fit the bill. They're predicated that magic is all based on "mana" which is a non-renewable resource. Once it runs out, magic dies and there' no way to renew it (except temporarily by the murder of people). Mythological creatures go extinct, spells fail, and civilizations fail. It's all predicated on the use of this resource.

[Madalch]

I like Tad Williams, even though his first novel, Chaser's Tail, was fun (although it had a very disappointing ending).
Tailchaser's Song? The one with the cats?

I remember liking it, but not much more than that.

[supercorgi]

Tailchaser's Song? The one with the cats?

I remember liking it, but not much more than that.

Yeah that's the one, I thought it was charming (guess you have to be a cat person) but the ending was a flop.

[Praktik]

I read The Road about two months ago. My reaction is 'meh'.

I watched The Proposition last night. I didn't like it, so between the book and the director, I am not expecting much from the movie.

Hehe!

Different strokes!

Loved them both..;)

[RobRoy]

I read The Road about two months ago. My reaction is 'meh'.

Out of curiosity, are do you have children? I'm not saying this to fling it in your face or anything. I just wondered, as my wife was either about to give birth or had just given birth to our first son when I read this book, so I wonder if that didn't color my own personal perceptions regarding its worth.

[Ixion]

My wife and I do not have children of our own (but we have cared for and played a large role in raising several children). I concede that those emotions could play a large role in the liking of the book, but, then, I am not that interested in reading books simply as an appeal to emotion.

I have not read anything else by Cormac McCarthy, so I don't know if it is simply his writing style I don't care for or the scope of the book.

[Madalch]

Yeah that's the one, I thought it was charming (guess you have to be a cat person) but the ending was a flop.
I think you mistake my meaning. I remember that I liked the book, but that's about all I remember.

I think there was a bit containing a story of an evil cat which rebels against the cat-god, and fights until he loses his tail, his claws, and nearly all his fur. He is then renamed "Man" and sentences to serve the other cats eternally.

And something about an undead lich-cat at the end? And Tailchaser finishes his quest, goes home, and find that the babe he was trying to impress is now far too domesticated to be of any interest to him....?

[RobRoy]

My wife and I do not have children of our own (but we have cared for and played a large role in raising several children). I concede that those emotions could play a large role in the liking of the book, but, then, I am not that interested in reading books simply as an appeal to emotion.

Exactly. The book may be mediocre, but my own circumstances may have colored the way I viewed the book when I was reading it. Pleasent memories evoked by an appropriate novel. <shrug>

I have not read anything else by Cormac McCarthy, so I don't know if it is simply his writing style I don't care for or the scope of the book.

I haven't either, but as an author I have read, I didn't like the style in which he crafted his dialogue.

[elevatedsteve]

I think that Eric Nylund's books Signal to Noise and the sequel A Shattered Signal were really good.

I just finished reading Trigger by Todd Durrant and I would suggest you check that one out too. (I have heard that a sequel is on the way, but it is not available yet.)

Another one that I think you should read is Improbable by Adam Fawer

[Winterfrost]

So my question is, are there any sci-fi books that take one wrinkle and really run with it?

The Truth Machine by James Halperin, about the creation of the first 100% accurate lie detector (and the human cost to develop it).

Some of his "conclusions" are possibly naive, but the ideas he presents on how such a thing might ultimately affect society have been fuel for a few very interesting discussions with friends and family over the years.

How would your life change if you couldn't lie?

[supercorgi]

I think you mistake my meaning. I remember that I liked the book, but that's about all I remember.

I think there was a bit containing a story of an evil cat which rebels against the cat-god, and fights until he loses his tail, his claws, and nearly all his fur. He is then renamed "Man" and sentences to serve the other cats eternally.

And something about an undead lich-cat at the end? And Tailchaser finishes his quest, goes home, and find that the babe he was trying to impress is now far too domesticated to be of any interest to him....?

Yeah that's the book. But at the end I think the cat he was interested in was spayed and he just went away. I just remember it as a let down (maybe I was hoping for hot kitty sex!:D)

[arthwollipot]

I've finished Little Fuzzy - loved it, by the way, and I've started re-reading War of the Worlds, which is a masterpiece of science fiction - although I'm not sure whether it counts as "modern" as per the OP (it was written in 1898). I'm currently looking for more free books to download to my iPhone.

[Soapy Sam]

Always nice to come across someone else who has read Cherryh and would recommend her. Most of my friends have difficulty with books like Foreigner, where you may go most of a long chapter almost entirely inside the main character's internal self-dialogue.

Cherryh's Chanur Saga was quite possibly the first sci-fi I ever read. Ah, such fond memories. Cherryh's ability to invent and flesh out alien species and civilizations that are so completely antithetical to normal human thought has always amazed me. The fact that, in the Chanur Saga, the SINGLE human character isn't even the main character is exceptional; that Cherryh has the ability to write a story where you, a human reader, feel that the only human in the story is the alien... Such a talent she has.

Yes, I'm gushing, but I happen to be a huge fan of Cherryh's sci-fi work. :)

I'm rather happy that there's a 10th Bren book (as Cherryh calls them) in the works.


Just re-read "Cyteen" in preparation for the new sequel.
I have long considered Cherryh the best stylist in current SF.

[arthwollipot]

Just re-read "Cyteen" in preparation for the new sequel.
I have long considered Cherryh the best stylist in current SF.I was a little disappointed in Regenesis - it carried on the story very effectively, but it was an incredibly long and slow read. I loved Cyteen, and I loved how consistently it tied in with Downbelow Station and 40,000 in Gehenna, but Regenesis could have been a bit more... interesting.

My favourite Cherryh books are still, of course, the Chanur series. They were well-paced.

[catsmate1]

How about David Weber? He covers a wide gamut of genres, from high fantasy to space opera, and is a favourite of mine. In fact he covers alternative history, techno-fantasy, space opera, military SF, epic fantasy and much inbetween.
It's easy to start reading Weber too, many of his books are available as free ebooks and almost all have samples available online.