I'm thinking of writing a book - can I quote you?

[A Christian Sceptic]

I've really enjoyed much of your witty banter and posts and really appreciated some of the great ideas many of you have.

I'm playing around with writing a book. I don't have the complete specifics down as I'm still deciding whether I want to write this. But I thought I'd throw this out to see what sort of responses I get. Since you all are technically owners of the posts you make I wanted to get permission to quote you. If I can't get permission or you don't want to give it to me I still might write the book but just generalize, but that wouldn't be as personal. It's going to be a nonfiction book aimed for Christians who might be interested in reading some of your great arguments and thoughts and observations along with some of my own impressions and knowledge gained while hanging with you all.

Anyway - if you have taken part in any exchanges with me or threads I've been involved in and won't mind me quoting you and referring to your Screen Name respond to this thread with a YES. Otherwise respond with NO or no response.

[Hokulele]

I can offer a conditional YES. I would want to see how my posts are being used in context, as I can think of several things I may have said on one of your threads that, if context is lost, may sound like I am arguing the opposite of my real opinion. I do not mean to suggest that you are likely to quote mine or quote out of context, but I absolutely hate it when my words are used in a manner that makes them likely to be misconstrued, and have seen it happen unintentionally.

[Madalch]

What Hokulele said. I can't think of anything I've posted that you might want to quote, let alone out of context, but just in case.

[dglas]

No.

I usually very carefully consider what I say and how I say it. The danger of being misrepresented is simply too high. If I want my stuff in a book, I'll write it myself. Thanks for the offer, though.


What is this "respond with no response" thingy you speak of? :D
Will it help us...
Win Powerball!!!

[Bluefire]

I do not have anything principally against being quoted. But since any posts here are written "quickly" without being overly careful I have a caveat:

I would want know of any quotes taken from me here, and to have the opportunity of phrasing something more careful, if I am not happy with having a particular formulation printed in a book.

[godless dave]

Yes. Also feel free to PM me.

[Beth]

Sure

[A Christian Sceptic]

I can offer a conditional YES. I would want to see how my posts are being used in context, as I can think of several things I may have said on one of your threads that, if context is lost, may sound like I am arguing the opposite of my real opinion. I do not mean to suggest that you are likely to quote mine or quote out of context, but I absolutely hate it when my words are used in a manner that makes them likely to be misconstrued, and have seen it happen unintentionally.

If I quote you I'd put a footnote where someone should be able to find the quote online and check for themselves whether it's in context.

Mainly I want to organize peoples answers in such a way where the reader can draw their own conclusions of any significance of what anyone said. I know I've drawn some of my own conclusions on certain things and will obviously sometimes share those. But I'd be making sure the reader understood those were only my opinions.

I can assure that my intent is more of an attempt to show the diversity amongst Atheists views then any sort of argument against Atheist views.

There was so much good information that people have shared, but it's rather a pain to surf through the silliness and derails. So I'm more writing this for myself and maybe someone else will find it interesting.

[Tricky]

I can assure that my intent is more of an attempt to show the diversity amongst Atheists views then any sort of argument against Atheist views.

I think that's good. I dislike it when people are lumped into one big group, be it atheist or Christian. From what I can tell, you truly are a Christian Skeptic. There is an incredible variety of beliefs out there and they change every time somebody has a new thought, so I support any effort to prevent stereotyping. It is a buffet. It is foolish, in my opinion, not to taste lots of different things.

[Fnord]

"I'm thinking of writing a book - can I quote you?" -- Christian Sceptic.

No.

Never.

Not at all.

No way - no how.

Neither in whole or in part.

Clear enough?

[neltana]

I can't imagine why you would want to quote me, since I'm not an atheist. But since I've taken part in threads with you, it isn't outside the realm of possibility, I suppose.

Yes, you can quote my typo-prone and bizarre posts for the purpose of discussion and criticism.

Of course, some degree of quoting would be allowable under "fair use" anyways. At least, as far as US law goes...I think. Better to get explicit permission, though.

[-Fran-]

It depends... I would say...

[Safe-Keeper]

Nope.

[ImaginalDisc]

No.




ETA: I think you deserve an explanation.

You are a slippery, artfully dodging weasel incapable of answering a question directly or representing anyone honestly. You are so untrustworthy that if you told me it was raining, I would look outside.

[JoeEllison]

No.

Not that I expect that you'd find much of what I've posted to be quote-worthy, but I also don't consider you to be a particularly trustworthy person, or one who possesses a large measure of integrity. I believe that you will take any opportunity to twist and manipulate the words of people who disagree with your position, in order to make your position look better.

[The Atheist]

I'm amazed at the noes!

if you don't want to be quoted, why the hell are you posting on a public forum?

ACS, if you find anything worth quoting me on, go ahead. Also feel free to scam as much as you like from my site/s if you're interested.

[ImaginalDisc]

Also feel free to scam as much as you like from my site/s if you're interested.
Emphasis added.

How appropriate.

[Mobyseven]

A conditional yes, as per Hokulele. If you want to quote me, I'll want to know how my words are being used.

[Gilmar]

No, and you can quote me on that.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Everything I've written on BBSs is public domain AFAIC.

[Hokulele]

If I quote you I'd put a footnote where someone should be able to find the quote online and check for themselves whether it's in context.

Mainly I want to organize peoples answers in such a way where the reader can draw their own conclusions of any significance of what anyone said. I know I've drawn some of my own conclusions on certain things and will obviously sometimes share those. But I'd be making sure the reader understood those were only my opinions.

I can assure that my intent is more of an attempt to show the diversity amongst Atheists views then any sort of argument against Atheist views.

There was so much good information that people have shared, but it's rather a pain to surf through the silliness and derails. So I'm more writing this for myself and maybe someone else will find it interesting.


Again, I would prefer to see the work prior to release. AFAIK, this is a common request when quotes are used. It is not that I do not trust you per se, but that you have demonstrated in the past a different understanding of what I have written than what I intended. I would prefer that my writings show my intentions. If you are not comfortable sharing your book before publication, that is fine, but in that case I would prefer not be quoted.

Not that I am assuming I am quote-worthy to begin with. ;)

Everything I've written on BBSs is public domain AFAIC.


Yes and no. If ACS plans this to be a profit-making venture, the public domain issue becomes tricky depending on jurisdiction. Then again, IANAL.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Yes and no. If ACS plans this to be a profit-making venture, the public domain issue becomes tricky depending on jurisdiction. Then again, IANAL.

Hence the "as far as I'm concerned". I make no copywrite claim to anything I post on BBSs, it's just there. Not that I think ACS wants to quote anything I've written here, I'm just noting I have a lassaiz-faire attitude towards the use of my writing.

[Hokulele]

Hence the "as far as I'm concerned". I make no copywrite claim to anything I post on BBSs, it's just there. Not that I think ACS wants to quote anything I've written here, I'm just noting I have a lassaiz-faire attitude towards the use of my writing.


I originally read this as "a lassaiz-faire attitude towards my writing", and was about to agree with you. :p

[Tricky]

Hence the "as far as I'm concerned". I make no copyright claim to anything I post on BBSs, it's just there. Not that I think ACS wants to quote anything I've written here, I'm just noting I have a lassaiz-faire attitude toward the use of my writing.

I don't think anybody has any copyright claims to anything they write here. It is already in the public domain. Moreover, most of us are anonymous so it would be hard for us to insist that any person's reputation was being harmed by the misuse of our forum persona's words. At best, the owners of the forum might be able to claim some right to ownership of what is posted here.

While it is nice of ACS to ask our permission, I don't think that he has to, legally speaking.

In a slightly related question, whatever happened to that lawsuit by the guy who claimed he had been slandered on the forum? Wasn't he trying to sue some of the forum persona, though not even knowing who they were?

[PrincessIneffabelle]

Again, I would prefer to see the work prior to release. AFAIK, this is a common request when quotes are used. It is not that I do not trust you per se, but that you have demonstrated in the past a different understanding of what I have written than what I intended. I would prefer that my writings show my intentions. If you are not comfortable sharing your book before publication, that is fine, but in that case I would prefer not be quoted.

Not that I am assuming I am quote-worthy to begin with. ;)


Once again, Hokulele reads my mind before I do!

IOW, what she said goes for me, too. I don't post anything online that I wouldn't put on a downtown billboard, but I wouldn't like to be quote-mined to create a strawman, quoted out of context or ... heavily ... ellipsied.

[Tricky]

...Hokulele... goes for me... heavily ...
More Lesbian propaganda!

[UnrepentantSinner]

In a slightly related question, whatever happened to that lawsuit by the guy who claimed he had been slandered on the forum? Wasn't he trying to sue some of the forum persona, though not even knowing who they were?

I've even succumbed to the whine of libel/slander on this forum, but only due to frustration because I knew that any complaint about character damage would frivilous at best and pathetic at worst. While I'm not a lawyer or legal scholar, apart from stalker crap that goes on with sites like Facebook, Myspace, etc., everything I say here has the legal weight of me standing on a street corner shouting at people for wearing the wrong clothes.

Again, that's just how I look at it, I'd plead differently in court if.. oh crap, this post will serve as evidence against me... I've said too much.

More Lesbian propaganda!

Soooo tempting... but I got your girlfriend for her mockery of me above in the Quote out of context thread. DmKrispin gets a pass.

[Wowbagger]

I don't know if I've conversed with you, very much, but: You can feel free to quote anything I have written on this forum, with the condition that I be notified of its usage before it goes to print, and you should give me the opportunity to object to its usage, if I see fit.
Though, I tend to be a relatively easy-going fellow: There are very few reasons I would object to being quoted.

[JWideman]

I don't think anybody has any copyright claims to anything they write here. It is already in the public domain. Moreover, most of us are anonymous so it would be hard for us to insist that any person's reputation was being harmed by the misuse of our forum persona's words. At best, the owners of the forum might be able to claim some right to ownership of what is posted here.

While it is nice of ACS to ask our permission, I don't think that he has to, legally speaking.

In a slightly related question, whatever happened to that lawsuit by the guy who claimed he had been slandered on the forum? Wasn't he trying to sue some of the forum persona, though not even knowing who they were?

You can only put stuff into the public domain by explicitly stating so.

Now, then, unless ACS has written books before, I highly doubt he is going to do so now. Everyone is always planning to write a book. Many people even start one. Only some actually finish it. Very few manage to get a publisher involved. With that in mind, how can I possibly turn him down?

[rocketdodger]

Do you even need to ask permission? Unless there is something on the forum rules you signed off on when you started the account, everything we say here is already public domain, right?

[phrenicgermal]

Absolutely not.

[rocketdodger]

oops I see someone already got to that point... nm

[Steven Howard]

I don't think anybody has any copyright claims to anything they write here. It is already in the public domain.

While it is nice of ACS to ask our permission, I don't think that he has to, legally speaking.

Yes they do, no it isn't, and yes he does.

See the Registration Agreement: (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45132)

Copyright

Any post or article published on the JREF forum by a Member is the copyright of the Member and may not be reproduced, copied or otherwise re-published without the express permission of the Member. By posting on the Forum a Member grants the JREF a non-exclusive licence to publish, republish or reproduce their work, in its entirety or as the JREF sees fit, in perpetuity. The James Randi Educational Foundation is the copyright holder of the JREF Forum.

[Ladewig]

Yes they do, no it isn't, and yes he does.

See the Registration Agreement: (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45132)

Once again, the RTFM philosophy proves its worth.

[Pato2747]

Yes, AS LONG as you notify me and I approve of the quotes and the context.

[Roadtoad]

No.

[Darth Rotor]

My yes is conditioned upon the following:

As a source, I am to be quoted as

"An internet madman whose status as Dark Jedi/Sith makes it far too dangerous for me to provoke."

PM me for further details.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Not that I am assuming I am quote-worthy to begin with. ;)

But you are, my dear pineapple and boudin casserole princess, you are. :)

DR

[DOC]

Yea, you can quote me. Good luck on the book.

[Hokulele]

But you are, my dear pineapple and boudin casserole princess, you are. :)

DR


Pineapple and boudin casserole? Um, ick?

(Have you gotten into the Guinness a day early? :p And if you have not already done so, check out Minadin's Guinness-based onion soup recipe in the 9/11 Debunking thread in Community. Yummy!)

[LibraryLady]

I would prefer not to.

[A Christian Sceptic]

OK - so here's the responses:

Anyone who's given conditions, if I quote you I'll send it in context for you to approve.
- Anyone who's said no won't be quoted
- and anyone who says I'm just untrustworthy - well - that's just a bit odd for a person you know only on a forum. I'll be referring to you with the Username: AtheistsWhoThinksI'mUntrustworthy1 , 2, etc and I won't be quoting you - I'll just make something up.
- And of course, I'll defer to the Jedi Lord Darth Rotar's wishes.

And if you're curious - I've written plenty of short stories - which have never been published. I've written a horror novelette that was turned down, when reviewed by a published horror author he trashed it, but when I self-published it people occasionally buy it and seem to like it. So whatever.

But yes- there's been plenty of books I've never started and plenty I've started that I've never finished.

This one is looking pretty easy as it looks like it's going to be mainly me writing and generalizing - I don't have to do much of the difficult research of quoting correctly and making sure it's in the correct context. :)

[joobz]

i agree with the Hokulele response.

[The Atheist]

Would a couple of you naysayers please answer as to why you've written stuff on a public message board which you don't want repeated?

My mind is boggling at the thought.

Hokulele's answer is as irrelevant - if you don't want to be quoted "out of context", don't make comments!

[qayak]

I've really enjoyed much of your witty banter and posts and really appreciated some of the great ideas many of you have.

I'm playing around with writing a book. I don't have the complete specifics down as I'm still deciding whether I want to write this. But I thought I'd throw this out to see what sort of responses I get. Since you all are technically owners of the posts you make I wanted to get permission to quote you. If I can't get permission or you don't want to give it to me I still might write the book but just generalize, but that wouldn't be as personal. It's going to be a nonfiction book aimed for Christians who might be interested in reading some of your great arguments and thoughts and observations along with some of my own impressions and knowledge gained while hanging with you all.

Anyway - if you have taken part in any exchanges with me or threads I've been involved in and won't mind me quoting you and referring to your Screen Name respond to this thread with a YES. Otherwise respond with NO or no response.

I would not give you a blanket "yes" or "no" to quote me. As long as the quote was in the context I used it and referred to the subject it was originally aimed at, I give you a definite "Maybe."

Now, let's talk payment for my words of wisdom! :D

[Hokulele]

My mind is ... irrelevant!


QED

[qayak]

Hokulele's answer is as irrelevant - if you don't want to be quoted "out of context", don't make comments!

Actually, the purpose of this forum is not to give wannabe authors material for their books. Being quoted out of context is a perfectly good reason to not agree to having your words published.

This isn't a public forum. One must be a member in order to post and that makes it a private forum. Of course, the laws may have changed since the last time I looked.

[A Christian Sceptic]

No.




ETA: I think you deserve an explanation.

You are a slippery, artfully dodging weasel incapable of answering a question directly or representing anyone honestly. You are so untrustworthy that if you told me it was raining, I would look outside.

Can I at least have permission to quote you on why you won't let me quote you?

[Beth]

Would a couple of you naysayers please answer as to why you've written stuff on a public message board which you don't want repeated?

My mind is boggling at the thought.

Hokulele's answer is as irrelevant - if you don't want to be quoted "out of context", don't make comments!

I have to admit, I'm a bit puzzled by the reluctance myself - particularly given that posts are made under user names, so they are essentiallly anonymous anyway with the exception of those who post under their full names which is rather rare.

[The Atheist]

QED

Well, nothing of the sort actually.

The whole point with quotes is that they be indentifiable, otherwise the writer may as well just make it up. If someone wants to ruin their own credibility by changing quotes to change the meaning, go ahead.

This isn't a public forum. One must be a member in order to post and that makes it a private forum. Of course, the laws may have changed since the last time I looked.

See it how you like, but posts in the public sections are demonstrably available to be read by anyone, member or not.

I have to admit, I'm a bit puzzled by the reluctance myself - particularly given that posts are made under user names, so they are essentiallly anonymous anyway with the exception of those who post under their full names which is rather rare.

Well, none of them are prepared to answer anyway.

[Hokulele]

Well, nothing of the sort actually.

The whole point with quotes is that they be indentifiable, otherwise the writer may as well just make it up. If someone wants to ruin their own credibility by changing quotes to change the meaning, go ahead.


Not all readers will be honest (or skeptical) enough to check context before using the quotes in other places to support their position.

Exhibit A - http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3531895#post3531895

Exhibit B - Anything DOC has ever posted.

ETA: To address Beth's point, it is not the point that these quotes would be associated with me, but that they could be used to support something I do not agree with. I am not accusing ACS of doing so deliberately, but I have seen it happen unintentionally. See Exhibit A.

[Ladewig]

Would a couple of you naysayers please answer as to why you've written stuff on a public message board which you don't want repeated?

My mind is boggling at the thought.

Why is the idea of not wanting someone else to make money off of one's own words mind-boggling?

[Achán hiNidráne]

No.

[The Atheist]

Why is the idea of not wanting someone else to make money off of one's own words mind-boggling?

How much money do you reckon he's going to make?

Not all readers will be honest (or skeptical) enough to check context before using the quotes in other places to support their position.

Which is the same as saying they just make it up, which nobody can stop anyone else doing anyway. The defence you're trying to establish just doesn't fit for messages written on a public message board.

[Hokulele]

Which is the same as saying they just make it up, which nobody can stop anyone else doing anyway. The defence you're trying to establish just doesn't fit for messages written on a public message board.


I said "readers", not "writers". Again, my main point is that I do not want my words being used to justify discriminating against atheists. I absolutely do not care if it can be traced to the real life me or not. By making my approval conditional, I can at least guarantee that my words will not be used this way.

[qayak]

See it how you like, but posts in the public sections are demonstrably available to be read by anyone, member or not.

And that matters how?

[qayak]

How much money do you reckon he's going to make?

What difference does it make? I didn't see where there was any wiggle room left for you. They don't want him to make money off their words . . . ANY money.

Which is the same as saying they just make it up, which nobody can stop anyone else doing anyway. The defence you're trying to establish just doesn't fit for messages written on a public message board.

No, no one can stop him from making it all up but then it is just another fairytale for his readers to believe. It is like Dawkins and Gould said, allowing your words to be used in any form by someone with a religious agenda simply adds a measure of respectability that is completely undeserved.

[A Christian Sceptic]

How much money do you reckon he's going to make?


If past experience counts - probably enough for a #3 Combo Meal.;)

[Kahalachan]

I don't mind. Let me know which quote and in which context and give me credit. That's all the common courtesy I think anyone here expects. Credit to me isn't necessary, but just clarification that those weren't your words. The same honesty I expect from any other text.

[The Atheist]

And that matters how?

Jesus, there are times you just amaze me. If you stand on a street corner and shout out messages to people, are those people able to quote you without your permission? If a statement is made in the public domain, it's pretty pointless to try to preserve some form of "copyright" on the words.

Tell me, do you ever link to press releases, comment or links from other sites? Do you always ask for permission first?

What difference does it make? I didn't see where there was any wiggle room left for you. They don't want him to make money off their words . . . ANY money.

Yeah, ACS is going to write a bestseller based on the pearls of wisdom from JREF.

Riiiight.

No, no one can stop him from making it all up but then it is just another fairytale for his readers to believe. It is like Dawkins and Gould said, allowing your words to be used in any form by someone with a religious agenda simply adds a measure of respectability that is completely undeserved.

:dl:

comparing yourself to Dawkins now?

If past experience counts - probably enough for a #3 Combo Meal.;)

Must be hysterical reading the responses though. Seriously, if you'd asked me whether people would have said "no", I'd have laughed, thinking it wasn't possible.

Humans.

[-Fran-]

Must be hysterical reading the responses though. Seriously, if you'd asked me whether people would have said "no", I'd have laughed, thinking it wasn't possible.


But... if he's stupid enough to ask then... why not say no? :D

[UnrepentantSinner]

I think the issue of "fair use" comes into play (otherwise many books or term papers for that matter would never get written). There's even a legal precident - SwordoftheLord777 v. Fundies Say The Darndest Things. ;)

[Mel Odious]

I can't imagine that any of my idiotic comments here are worth quoting, so this is probably academic. But then again, I never expected to be a pith award finalist a few months back either ...

Sorry, it's a no from me.

[Mobyseven]

Hokulele's answer is as irrelevant - if you don't want to be quoted "out of context", don't make comments!

By that line of reasoning, nobody should talk, at least hardly ever. Nobody wants to be quoted out of context, and therefore nobody should say anything, lest it be taken out of context.

The dumb is strong in your reasoning.

[qayak]

Jesus, there are times you just amaze me. If you stand on a street corner and shout out messages to people, are those people able to quote you without your permission? If a statement is made in the public domain, it's pretty pointless to try to preserve some form of "copyright" on the words.

They weren't made in the public domain.

Tell me, do you ever link to press releases, comment or links from other sites? Do you always ask for permission first?

Have you ever noticed that the people who don't give permission to be quoted in a news article are always listed as anonymous.

Yeah, ACS is going to write a bestseller based on the pearls of wisdom from JREF.

You are famous on this forum for your intellectual dishonesty so I expect nothing less from you. You made this red herring so go ahead and argue against it.

The point I was making is that the poster you quoted stated they don't want him making ANYTHING off their words. Even 1 penny is too much. So, regardless of your dishonesty, the point is not how much he will make, only that he may make SOMETHING.

comparing yourself to Dawkins now?

It seems only fair that if you can compare yourself to the village idiot, I too can compare myself to someone close to my intelligence level. Granted there is more distance between me and Dawkins than between you and the idiot.

[The Atheist]

They weren't made in the public domain.

OMG! You really don't get it, do you?

I'll repeat the very easy questions:

Do you ever quote from elsewhere?

Have you always asked and received permission first?

Have you ever noticed that the people who don't give permission to be quoted in a news article are always listed as anonymous.

:dl:

Have you noticed that comments by you are anonymous? Unless your name is qayak?

You are famous on this forum for your intellectual dishonesty so I expect nothing less from you. You made this red herring so go ahead and argue against it.

Pssh. Cast all the aspersions you like, sonny. When you have some evidence to back it up, start a thread. I've said many times that my integrity remains intact. That some junior whistler in a canoe says otherwise bothers me not for a millisecond.

The point I was making is that the poster you quoted stated they don't want him making ANYTHING off their words. Even 1 penny is too much. So, regardless of your dishonesty, the point is not how much he will make, only that he may make SOMETHING.

See, even here, you just can't deal with a touch of realism, can you? Do you seriously think a bloke is going to make money out of this project?

Hello!!! Earth to qayak.....

It seems only fair that if you can compare yourself to the village idiot, I too can compare myself to someone close to my intelligence level. Granted there is more distance between me and Dawkins than between you and the idiot.

Ho hum, how tiresome. Yet again, when intellectually defeated you resort to ad hominem. Keep doing it, though, remember, this stuff is all available to any member of the public with a computer.

Mind you, it does explain why you'd rather not be quoted.

:bgrin:

[ImaginalDisc]

Can I at least have permission to quote you on why you won't let me quote you?

No. Given that you already admitted you will make things up and attribute them to whomever you like, I doubt very much that niggling little things like copyright and courtesy would stop you.

- and anyone who says I'm just untrustworthy - well - that's just a bit odd for a person you know only on a forum. I'll be referring to you with the Username: AtheistsWhoThinksI'mUntrustworthy1 , 2, etc and I won't be quoting you - I'll just make something up.
Emphasis added.

You do not deserve to make a thin red cent off of my words, or the words of anyone else here. No one here, I think, posts so you can reprint our words for your own profit.

[Ladewig]

They weren't made in the public domain.

OMG! You really don't get it, do you?

I'll repeat the very easy questions:

Do you ever quote from elsewhere?

Have you always asked and received permission first?

You seem to be confused about the definition of public domain. It is a legal term that does not include words spoken on a street corner or messages posted on an internet forum.

As for posters here quoting from elsewhere, you'll notice that the board's moderators limit each JREF's poster's ability to quote stories and lengthy posts in their entirety.



The point I was making is that the poster you quoted stated they don't want him making ANYTHING off their words. Even 1 penny is too much. So, regardless of your dishonesty, the point is not how much he will make, only that he may make SOMETHING.
See, even here, you just can't deal with a touch of realism, can you? Do you seriously think a bloke is going to make money out of this project?


A touch or realism? Why is it unrealistic to expect a published author to make any money on his next book? I don't expect him to write a bestseller (as you sarcastically suggested in post #60) but I do believe it is quite possible that he could make more than $5. The amount of money he is making is irrelevant to me - the idea that he is making any money at all is the part that bothers me.

[neltana]

At least under US copyright law, every post made here is considered a copyrighted work. I suspect that ACS could use them not only without permission, but even if the author expressly forbade it, as long as he restricted himself to quoting short passages for the purpose of commentary or criticism.

Of course, if it ever went to court, anything could happen. After all, it is hard to quote a post without reproducing the whole darn thing. At what point would you cross the line from commentary or criticism to a bona fide derivative work? There is a "safe harbor," but it isn't a particularly large harbor.

But it is important to remember that the JREF membership rules expressly forbid using posts like that without the owner's permission. So, even if ACS stayed on the right side of the law, he could be banned...and I'm sure we all agree that being banned from JREF is a more fearsome punishment than any civil court could ever impose.

[joobz]

As a participant of the JREF community, I support any effort which will prove expose more people to healthy skeptical thinking. If someone makes money off of it, great. I hope some of it will be donated to JREF, but that's up to the person writing the book. I'm not against someone making profit.

But as a member of JREF community, I wish to reserve my approval to see how the quotes are used and if they are accurate to the intentions of the original posts. I'm simply against quotemining and misrepresentation. I have no reason to assume CS will do so, but I feel it is appropriate as a matter of course to exercise the skepticism that we attempt to practice and promote.

[Marquis de Carabas]

You can use anything I've ever said, especially the bits about goats.

[fuelair]

If past experience counts - probably enough for a #3 Combo Meal.;)
Feel free to quote mine (but don't "quote mine" it - oh, never mind, not enough to do that.)

[That_guy]

Feel free.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Feel free to quote mine (but don't "quote mine" it - oh, never mind, not enough to do that.)

Hah! Inadvertant or planned, that was a delicious choice of verbiage. :D

[A Christian Sceptic]

But... if he's stupid enough to ask then... why not say no? :D

It's my current understanding based on general internet copyright law that the moment some publishes something on the internet it's considered copyrighted by the original creator. Of course - if you go to court you have three months (last time I checked) to fill out the copyright paperwork and pay the fees. Usually this is in regards to websites.

I think that in general fair use all works can have small sections quoted whether books or internet text - but since my original thoughts were to try to let your own words represent you - more lengthy quotes (if not entire posts) might need to be used. So I need to get explicit YES's. I am assuming someone not posting in this thread is giving me a NO and of course those who explicitly give me a NO. The Conditonal YES's I'll correspond with on an individual basis as needed.

But, based on the responses I think the book theme may change a bit to be more generalized instead of specific.

[A Christian Sceptic]

Must be hysterical reading the responses though. Seriously, if you'd asked me whether people would have said "no", I'd have laughed, thinking it wasn't possible.


It is rather fascinating.

Which makes me wonder - who owns insults, the person giving it or the person receiving it?

If someone calls you a "dishonest weasel" the person being called that can't quote it?

[ImaginalDisc]

It is rather fascinating.

Which makes me wonder - who owns insults, the person giving it or the person receiving it?

If someone calls you a "dishonest weasel" the person being called that can't quote it?

In your case, that would be a compliment.

[Fnord]

I'm amazed at the noes! If you don't want to be quoted, why the hell are you posting on a public forum?

1) To be difficult -- I'm in a pissy mood.

2) There was no offer of remuneration or compensation of any kind.

3) Because I can.

But since anything posted in JREF is essentially Public Domain, any protests on my part are irrelevant.

And you can quote me on that.

[A Christian Sceptic]

In your case, that would be a compliment.

Oh - in that case, who owns a compliment? :)

[-Fran-]

It's my current understanding based on general internet copyright law that the moment some publishes something on the internet it's considered copyrighted by the original creator. Of course - if you go to court you have three months (last time I checked) to fill out the copyright paperwork and pay the fees. Usually this is in regards to websites.

I think that in general fair use all works can have small sections quoted whether books or internet text - but since my original thoughts were to try to let your own words represent you - more lengthy quotes (if not entire posts) might need to be used. So I need to get explicit YES's. I am assuming someone not posting in this thread is giving me a NO and of course those who explicitly give me a NO. The Conditonal YES's I'll correspond with on an individual basis as needed.

But, based on the responses I think the book theme may change a bit to be more generalized instead of specific.

Apologies, ACS, that wasn't directed at you, though the way I put it, it was sure not the least bit clear that it wasn't. I was joking a little about that The Atheist seemed so sure that it's an absolutely given thing that you don't need to ask at all, and joked that you must be stupid then who still did, and that we then could just as well say no, even though we, apparently, doesn't have the right to say no. I did not actually mean that you ARE stupid, and I did understand your reasons for asking.

[ImaginalDisc]

Oh - in that case, who owns a compliment? :)


Obligatory disclaimer:

I am not a lawyer, this does not constitute legal advice.
















GOOGLE IT, AND FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF!

You're too lazy to swat flies.

[A Christian Sceptic]

Obligatory disclaimer:

I am not a lawyer, this does not constitute legal advice.

GOOGLE IT, AND FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF!

You're too lazy to swat flies.

I could have a whole chapter of just you. You could be famous - you sure you don't want to give me permission?

[ImaginalDisc]

I could have a whole chapter of just you. You could be famous - you sure you don't want to give me permission?

Was I somehow unclear?

If you include anything by me in your "work" one of the first literary critiques you recieve will be from my lawyer.

[fuelair]

Hah! Inadvertant or planned, that was a delicious choice of verbiage. :D
Mostly planned - and advantage of 61 years of playing with words!..
Re: another post, sorry I missed your J. Strain comment above mine. I wasn't that concerned on the topic so I answered the first question and appended the 2000 info. Do hope the new film is good though.:)

[Ladewig]

But since anything posted in JREF is essentially Public Domain, any protests on my part are irrelevant.


You seem to be confused about the definition of public domain. It is a legal term that does not include messages posted on an internet forum.

Public forum ≠ public domain.

[Fnord]

You seem to be confused about the definition of public domain. It is a legal term that does not include messages posted on an internet forum.

Public forum ≠ public domain.

In that case ... from the Membership Agreement (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=25744), a Quote:

"The JREF has adopted a policy of considering all published material copyrighted, including articles, images and other media, it is not the responsibility of the JREF to determine whether or not the work is in the public domain or if the work may be republished without explicit permission of the copyright holder. Copyrighted content may be posted within the doctrine of "fair use" therefore quoting of brief portions of articles, books, emails, or bulletin board messages, relevant to discussion, is permitted. All quoted material should be credited to the original author or publisher and a link provided (when available) to the original work. It is not possible to declare precisely how much material may be quoted, as it will vary from article to article. We suggest quoting no more than a paragraph. Authors of copyrighted material may post their own work, provided they hold publishing rights to the material."

This seems to mean ... what? Does an author need permission from JREF or the posting member to quote a post for a book?

[Darat]

....snip...

But since anything posted in JREF is essentially Public Domain, any protests on my part are irrelevant.

And you can quote me on that.

Nope any original work published here is the copyright of the person who authored it. (As far as countries such as the USA, countries that are members of the EU and Australia are concerned anyway.)

We try to make this clear when you join the Forum, http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=45132:

....

Copyright

Any post or article published on the JREF forum by a Member is the copyright of the Member and may not be reproduced, copied or otherwise re-published without the express permission of the Member. By posting on the Forum a Member grants the JREF a non-exclusive licence to publish, republish or reproduce their work, in its entirety or as the JREF sees fit, in perpetuity. The James Randi Educational Foundation is the copyright holder of the JREF Forum.


...

[A Christian Sceptic]

OK - let me clarify one more time so people can stop arguing with each other about copyright, public domain, etc.

As far as I'm concerned and know publicly available does not equal public domain. Whoever posts an original post I consider as the copyright holder. I will not quote a poster here who does not give me permission (even though I think a single statement could legally be quoted without permission if credit is given.)

The book I'm writing (I've started the introduction now) is probably going to be too favorable of Atheism so most Christians will probably hate it if they even bother to read it and, obviously, too favorable of my own take of things which is biased by me being a Christian - so probably most Atheists will hate it.

Which means in the end - I'm mainly writing this because I believe in the idea and take on things that I have. And let me say this - I'm not holding my breath for any $$$ to come in. In fact - I may not even make it publicly available in the end. I may simply print one copy and stick it on my shelf to stare at and occasionally re-read. :)

[ImaginalDisc]

OK - let me clarify one more time so people can stop arguing with each other about copyright, public domain, etc.

As far as I'm concerned and know publicly available does not equal public domain. Whoever posts an original post I consider as the copyright holder. I will not quote a poster here who does not give me permission (even though I think a single statement could legally be quoted without permission if credit is given.)

The book I'm writing (I've started the introduction now) is probably going to be too favorable of Atheism so most Christians will probably hate it if they even bother to read it and, obviously, too favorable of my own take of things which is biased by me being a Christian - so probably most Atheists will hate it.

Which means in the end - I'm mainly writing this because I believe in the idea and take on things that I have. And let me say this - I'm not holding my breath for any $$$ to come in. In fact - I may not even make it publicly available in the end. I may simply print one copy and stick it on my shelf to stare at and occasionally re-read. :)


How nice for you.

Numerous posters have asked either that you don't quote them at all, or that you let them vet the context and content of their quoted material. Regardless of the legal problems you'd encounter if you did otherwise, you've asked and recieved answers, so the polite thing to do would be to adhere to their requests.

[Fnord]

Okay, if I wasn't confused before, then I am now.

But if I've posted something quotable, and it is used, then at least spell my "name" correctly, okay?

[A Christian Sceptic]

How nice for you.

Numerous posters have asked either that you don't quote them at all, or that you let them vet the context and content of their quoted material. Regardless of the legal problems you'd encounter if you did otherwise, you've asked and recieved answers, so the polite thing to do would be to adhere to their requests.

Is there anyone else other than ImaginalDisc who is not clear on who will and won't be quoted? :boggled:

[ImaginalDisc]

Is there anyone else other than ImaginalDisc who is not clear on who will and won't be quoted? :boggled:

Oh, I'm quite clear on what you've said.

I'm also quite clear that you make a habit of selectively misunderstanding other posters, and reality. So, I have no confidence that you will abide by anyone's wishes.

[A Christian Sceptic]

I'm also quite clear that you make a habit of selectively misunderstanding other posters, and reality. So, I have no confidence that you will abide by anyone's wishes.

non-sequitur?

[ImaginalDisc]

non-sequitur?

Now you're proving my point.

I'll go through this step by step for your benefit.


You are either dishonest, and twist other poster's words for your benefit, or you are genuinely incapable of understanding them.

Therefore, I have no confidence that you will do as posters here have asked.

[A Christian Sceptic]

Now you're proving my point.

I'll go through this step by step for your benefit.


You are either dishonest, and twist other poster's words for your benefit, or you are genuinely incapable of understanding them.

Therefore, I have no confidence that you will do as posters here have asked.

Ad Hominem?

[ImaginalDisc]

Ad Hominem?

It's not an ad hominem logical fallacy. You are asking us to trust you to use our words in your book. Your trustworthiness and qualification to do so are very much at the heart of the matter.

[A Christian Sceptic]

It's not an ad hominem logical fallacy. You are asking us to trust you to use our words in your book. Your trustworthiness and qualification to do so are very much at the heart of the matter.

Sheesh dude. I was teasing you with the two most common rebuttals on this forum. I put a ? there show it wasn't a statement.

Anyway - unless someone has a question directly related to the OP I'll stop posting. I think I've got a good feeling and direction for where I'll be going. If while writing I come to someone I want to quote I'll check in on this thread to see if there is a YES and any conditions. If nothing is here it won't be quoted.

[ImaginalDisc]

Sheesh dude. I was teasing you with the two most common rebuttals on this forum. I put a ? there show it wasn't a statement.

Anyway - unless someone has a question directly related to the OP I'll stop posting. I think I've got a good feeling and direction for where I'll be going. If while writing I come to someone I want to quote I'll check in on this thread to see if there is a YES and any conditions. If nothing is here it won't be quoted.

"I was just kidding" isn't a very imaginative cover.

[Ladewig]

In that case ... from the Membership Agreement (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=25744), a Quote:

"The JREF has adopted a policy of considering all published material copyrighted, including articles, images and other media, it is not the responsibility of the JREF to determine whether or not the work is in the public domain or if the work may be republished without explicit permission of the copyright holder. Copyrighted content may be posted within the doctrine of "fair use" therefore quoting of brief portions of articles, books, emails, or bulletin board messages, relevant to discussion, is permitted. All quoted material should be credited to the original author or publisher and a link provided (when available) to the original work. It is not possible to declare precisely how much material may be quoted, as it will vary from article to article. We suggest quoting no more than a paragraph. Authors of copyrighted material may post their own work, provided they hold publishing rights to the material."

This seems to mean ... what? Does an author need permission from JREF or the posting member to quote a post for a book?


Yes. I agree that the "fair use" doctrine will allow for portions of posts to be used in specific manners, but that has nothing to do with public domain.

[Michael C]

You may quote anything I've written, as long as you make it clear that it's a quotation from an internet discussion forum.

[slingblade]

So, is this opt out or opt in?

Count me out. Totally out. Even to the point that you may not quote me saying that you may not quote me. Clear enough?


And for Fnord:
http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/public_domain/

[The Atheist]

You seem to be confused about the definition of public domain. It is a legal term that does not include words spoken on a street corner or messages posted on an internet forum.

No confusion involved, just a smenatic argument - the posts are available to all members of the public who choose to come and read them.

It is rather fascinating.

Which makes me wonder - who owns insults, the person giving it or the person receiving it?

If someone calls you a "dishonest weasel" the person being called that can't quote it?

Fascinating ain't the word for it. Revealing.

1) To be difficult -- I'm in a pissy mood.

2) There was no offer of remuneration or compensation of any kind.

3) Because I can.

But since anything posted in JREF is essentially Public Domain, any protests on my part are irrelevant.

And you can quote me on that.

:)

Honesty is good!

[slingblade]

Honesty is good!

Except when it's wrong. Then it's just well-intended misinformation. :cool:

[Zep]

No, you may not quote me without my explicit permission for each and every instance. And I reserve the right to withdraw even that.