Death of a conspiracy (HMAS Sydney found)

[MG1962]

Not so well known outside Australia, is the sinking of the cruiser HMAS Sydney in Nov 1941 with all 645 hands. It is the greatest single loss of life in the history of the Australian navy, and one shrowed in the mystery of how a well armed cruiser could be defeated by a German surface raider.

Claims that Japanese vessels (either surface or submarine) engaged in the battle, and the government knew but would not follow up due to diplomatic imperitives. The action occured three weeks before Pearl Harbor)

Claims, that survivors of the other vessel, the Kormoran, lied about where the actual battle took place, to avoid Australian rescue teams finding machine gunned bodies in the water. And once alerted to the situation, the Australian authorities allowed the miss report to continue

Persistent rumors that listening stations picked up SOS and action reports from the Sydney, that were never made public because of the supposed Japanese element. This is backed up by numorous claims from inhabitiants hearing and witnessing gun flashes over the horizon that could not have come from the battle as claimed by the authorities

Today both vessels where located. Both vessels where very close to the reprorted offical position of the battle. Both vessels have immediately been declared war graves, and except for camera inspection to better understand the events of that day, will not be disturbed in future.

The basic news story

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=73056

Some background on the less controversial elements of the mystery

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=392640

It is both a sad and happy day for Australia. Sad, that so many young people never came home. Happy, that those who were left behind have the oppotunity for real closure, and understanding of the events that day

[WildCat]

Must be that time of year! Just last week in California the body of an Airman who crashed in a training flight in 1942 was found frozen in a glacier (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/11/BAFAVHD5J.DTL).

Glad to see the Sydney was found!

[MG1962]

Must be that time of year! Just last week in California the body of an Airman who crashed in a training flight in 1942 was found frozen in a glacier (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/11/BAFAVHD5J.DTL).

Glad to see the Sydney was found!

I am glad his sister got to give him a final burial place. A neighbour of mine lost a brother during WW2 as part of RAAF - He accepted his death over time, he just never got over the fact there was never a body to bury. A place to let him rest

[PBTree]

Not so well known outside Australia, is the sinking of the cruiser HMAS Sydney in Nov 1941 with all 645 hands. It is the greatest single loss of life in the history of the Australian navy, and one shrowed in the mystery of how a well armed cruiser could be defeated by a German surface raider.

Claims that Japanese vessels (either surface or submarine) engaged in the battle, and the government knew but would not follow up due to diplomatic imperitives. The action occured three weeks before Pearl Harbor)

Claims, that survivors of the other vessel, the Kormoran, lied about where the actual battle took place, to avoid Australian rescue teams finding machine gunned bodies in the water. And once alerted to the situation, the Australian authorities allowed the miss report to continue

Persistent rumors that listening stations picked up SOS and action reports from the Sydney, that were never made public because of the supposed Japanese element. This is backed up by numorous claims from inhabitiants hearing and witnessing gun flashes over the horizon that could not have come from the battle as claimed by the authorities

Today both vessels where located. Both vessels where very close to the reprorted offical position of the battle. Both vessels have immediately been declared war graves, and except for camera inspection to better understand the events of that day, will not be disturbed in future.

The basic news story

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=73056

Some background on the less controversial elements of the mystery

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=392640

It is both a sad and happy day for Australia. Sad, that so many young people never came home. Happy, that those who were left behind have the oppotunity for real closure, and understanding of the events that day


Were they both found. From my understanding, they found what appears to be the Kormoran and a bit of wreckage somewhere else, that may be off the Sydney. I didn't hear that they had found the complete ship.

[MG1962]

Were they both found. From my understanding, they found what appears to be the Kormoran and a bit of wreckage somewhere else, that may be off the Sydney. I didn't hear that they had found the complete ship.

Looks like they have found three debris fields. The Koromant, then wreckage only four kilometres away, then the wreck of the Sydney rougly 10 nautical miles away

[Magenta]

Looks like they found most of the Sydney:

David Mearns, who has been leading the hunt for the wreck on behalf of the Finding Sydney Foundation, spoke to The World Today from the survey vessel Geosounder, around 3,000 metres above HMAS Sydney.

"The latest images collected just hours ago indicate that she's largely intact on the seabed, she's upright on the seabed," he said.

"This is the actual hull of the ship. She's probably missing about a 25 metres section of her bow and it remains to be seen.

"But our feeling now is that loss of the bow which had been weakened by that torpedo hit on her port side between the A and B turret is probably what finally broke off and sent Sydney to the seabed."


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/17/2191562.htm

[defaultdotxbe]

Were they both found. From my understanding, they found what appears to be the Kormoran and a bit of wreckage somewhere else, that may be off the Sydney. I didn't hear that they had found the complete ship.
from http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=73056

The 66-year search for the Sydney ended when a deep water survey vessel found the warship 12 nautical miles from the wreck of the Kormoran, which itself was located just last week.

[SpitfireIX]

Not so well known outside Australia, is the sinking of the cruiser HMAS Sydney in Nov 1941 with all 645 hands. It is the greatest single loss of life in the history of the Australian navy, and one shrowed in the mystery of how a well armed cruiser could be defeated by a German surface raider.

Claims that Japanese vessels (either surface or submarine) engaged in the battle, and the government knew but would not follow up due to diplomatic imperitives. The action occured three weeks before Pearl Harbor)

Claims, that survivors of the other vessel, the Kormoran, lied about where the actual battle took place, to avoid Australian rescue teams finding machine gunned bodies in the water. And once alerted to the situation, the Australian authorities allowed the miss report to continue

Persistent rumors that listening stations picked up SOS and action reports from the Sydney, that were never made public because of the supposed Japanese element. This is backed up by numorous claims from inhabitiants hearing and witnessing gun flashes over the horizon that could not have come from the battle as claimed by the authorities

Today both vessels where located. Both vessels where very close to the reprorted offical position of the battle. Both vessels have immediately been declared war graves, and except for camera inspection to better understand the events of that day, will not be disturbed in future.

The basic news story

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=73056

Some background on the less controversial elements of the mystery

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=392640

It is both a sad and happy day for Australia. Sad, that so many young people never came home. Happy, that those who were left behind have the oppotunity for real closure, and understanding of the events that day


How do you believe this will kill the conspiracy theories?

[dudalb]

Fascinating Stuff.
A few years ago I followed the finding of the USS Monitor and the CSS Huntely very closley.
But Spitfire IX is right:Facts have never stopped the Conspiracy Theorists before.

[PBTree]

Looks like they have found three debris fields. The Koromant, then wreckage only four kilometres away, then the wreck of the Sydney rougly 10 nautical miles away

Saw the 'updated' news when I got home. Being an old Sydney boy, that is great news. All we need now is to find out what happened. Seems a bit suss to me that so many just disappeared.

[MG1962]

How do you believe this will kill the conspiracy theories?

Because the location of the battle is confirmed. It shows that the listening post rumours and the stories from towns like Derby of a gun action after sunset were unfounded.

Inspecting the vessel will help confirm what I have always believed. The Sydney had to approach at speed and close much further than normal nearing sunset. As a consquence she appoached the Kormarant from due east. During the pre radar days it was common to try and dazzle an enemies gun crews by approaching from within the sun so to speak. So in this instance the German vessel would only look as a dark shape in the glare.

When the shooting started. Kormarant had a few seconds suprise, followed by better targeting oppotunities. By the time Sydney was fully engaged I suspect her upper works and bridge where so badly shot up she was never as effective as expected.

Someone questioned why so many died. It must be remembered that WW2 warships where notoriously top heavy and could roll and sink extremely fast. There are many examples of 100$ crew loss. I would say the captain thought the damage control was holding things together, then the bow snapped and the rest of the ship would have disapeared very fast

[PhantomWolf]

Survivers from the Kormoran claim that they hit the bridge first so it's possible the Captain wasn't in a position to think anything. They also report a large explosion in the direction the Sydney had sailed in, which might have been her forward magazine exploding. Situated the fore gun where the Torpedo hit this could have slipt the bow off and sunk her. There are many accounts of ships being lost with all hands when that sort of thing occurs.

[Magenta]

Anyone watch the documentary last night? (More info and the video here (http://www.abc.net.au/tv/hmassydney/abthmas.htm).)

The name of the ship that found Kormoran survivors rang a bell. The Centaur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AHS_Centaur) (after being converted to a hospital ship) was later sunk by the Japanese off the coast here (Brisbane).

[Wildy]

I missed the documentary. Was it good.

At least we now can say that the Germans were right.

[SpitfireIX]

Anyone watch the documentary last night? (More info and the video here (http://www.abc.net.au/tv/hmassydney/abthmas.htm).)

The name of the ship that found Kormoran survivors rang a bell. The Centaur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AHS_Centaur) (after being converted to a hospital ship) was later sunk by the Japanese off the coast here (Brisbane).


Someone at ABC must have a perverse sense of humor to have this premiere on the anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic.

[lionking]

i have not read widely about the Sydney's sinking, but I always understood that the Kormoran sank it and this is the first I have heard of a CT surrounding it. Anyway it was a good doco, even if it meant the ABC moved the best series I've seen on TV this year, "How Art Made the World".

[Magenta]

Someone at ABC must have a perverse sense of humor to have this premiere on the anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic.


Might be a coincidence... (The Titanic was mentioned in passing re relative size of search areas.)

I missed the documentary. Was it good.

At least we now can say that the Germans were right.


I thought it was good (you can watch it from the website). I wasn't all that familiar with the history but it gave some good background on the research into the likely location, and a possible explanation of why there were no survivors from the Sydney.

[Syameese]

The ABC show was quite good I thought, in fact better than I expected.

The finding, of course, will not lead to the death of the conspiracy theories. The anomaly hunting etc will go on. But, from what we know now everything that was reported by the German survivors seems to be absolutely consistent with what has been found.

Sadly, for some reason HMAS Sydney allowed herself to come too close to the "unknown" merchant ship and was caught off guard and was sunk as a result. No country likes to admit that their heroes may have made a mistake, but this is what this looks like.

As an aussie whose father served in WW2 it is poignant to think of those lives and hopes that were lost, but that is true for all countries and all conflicts.

[lionking]

Welcome Syameese.

[Magenta]

Just resurrecting this old thread for an update. The Commission of Inquiry set up after the Sydney was found have released their findings:

Commissioner Terence Cole, who conducted the inquiry, says Captain Joseph Burnett assumed the Kormoran was a merchant ship, even though he had information there were no friendly ships in the area.

He says that meant the Sydney got within point black range of the raider without going to action stations.

"Sydney closed to a vulnerable position having lost all tactical advantages of speed and gunnery at distance," he said.

"By that time it was too late, Sydney thereafter was subjected to the intense barrage I have described - thus was Sydney and her crew lost."

[...]

Some relatives of those lost have maintained that the Kormoran alone could not have destroyed the Sydney, arguing there had been a Government's cover-up, or that it was sunk by a Japanese submarine.

Japan was not at war with Australia at the time of the sinking.

But Mr Cole found there was no substance to any of the conspiracy theories.

"The incontrovertible, empirical facts available for the first time since the finding of the wrecks accorded with and confirmed the German account," he said.

"There is no doubt that the German account was, speaking generally, true."

He says the Sydney was peppered with heavy, close range gunfire and hit by a torpedo from the Kormoran.

Mr Cole also says many crew members were trapped by fires and blocked escape routes as the warship rolled and sank.

Link (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/12/2653594.htm)


ETA: I've asked the mods to move this thread out of 9/11 CTs.

[Myron Proudfoot]

Thanks, I'd missed the final report. that's interesting....

[CptColumbo]

Now if they could just find their missing Prime Ministers.

[Caustic Logic]

Thanks for the tip, MG. I seem to recall this coming up in another discussion but I'm still having to scan Wikipedia to even remember what the controversy was. I'll pop back in after I've read up.

And then I notice this is all a year old. So the CT is that there was maybe a Japanese submarine also involved? Sounds plausible given their buildup in the area at the time. I'd be curious how that was debunked and why anyone felt a need to do so.

[Alferd_Packer]

How do you believe this will kill the conspiracy theories?

Because Barack Obama's birth certificate was in a safe on board.

[Magenta]

The report is now up on the Defence website: The Loss of HMAS Sydney II (http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/index.html)

So the CT is that there was maybe a Japanese submarine also involved? Sounds plausible given their buildup in the area at the time. and why anyone felt a need to do so.


There was more than the one CT (as outlined in the OP). Finding the wrecks of the Sydney and the Kormoran last year more or less confirmed the account given by Kormoran survivors.

I'd be curious how that was debunked


The evidence supports the German version of events.

and why anyone felt a need to do so.

The Commission of Inquiry was not set up to debunk conspiracy theories. Its Terms of Reference were:

to inquire into and report upon circumstances associated with the loss of HMAS Sydney (II) in November 1941 and consequent loss of life and related events subsequent thereto

There were 645 people killed on the Sydney - now their families have a better understanding of what happened.

[zaphod2016]

Because Barack Obama's birth certificate was in a safe on board.

Come on man- you don't honestly believe that time-traveling Kenyan, do you?

[Hans]

But were the Officers of Sydney held responsible for their allowing the lapse in protocol when approaching an unknown ship?

[Caustic Logic]

But were the Officers of Sydney held responsible for their allowing the lapse in protocol when approaching an unknown ship?

Apparently one of he controversies was whether it was an unsafe/stupid action. Apparently they were punished by explosion/sinking and total death, but if there wasn't some court-martial as well, this needs to be exposed!

lol

[Hans]

I believe that the stories of the German's were not believed because it was felt that the Sydney would not have approached an unknown ship so close with the crew not at general quarters or even better battle stations. The Sydney was lost due to gross negligence of the officers of the deck/Captain.....a Submarine conspiracy was necessary to explain why the Sydney was loss.

Well yes the Officers paid for their lapse with the ultimate penalty. However in their support I would add that they did get the raider.

[Dave Rogers]

How do you believe this will kill the conspiracy theories?

Because HMAS Sydney sank at freefall speed into its own footprint.

Dave

[Klimax]

Because HMAS Sydney sank at freefall speed into its own footprint.

Dave

While containing trillions of dollars pounds...