The State of the Union

[OldSchool]

I was at work on the day of the 9-11 attack. I didn't actually get to see the Planes hit the buildings until that night. I went on with my life and accepted the media's account of the cause. It was many years till I began to reflect the attack. I have written a fair amount of Conspiracy papers mostly concerning Cocaine trade in this country. I don't trust or respect our government. It still took me till late 2005 to begin asking questions relating to 9-11.

What I dislike about the Truth movement is they spend to much time debating the small insignificant facts which have no consequence. Professionals generally aren't going to provide support for there movement due to the effect it would have on there career.

Why would any respected Politician, Intel agent, or military agent help a group of middle eastern terrorists carry out 9-11?

- It was a good way to drag our Country into a war.

Why is war a sufficient reason to overlook the lives lost?

Government Contracts to pay for the Iraq operation recently rose above 1 trillion dollars. The total Iraq operations is now estimated to reach at least 3 trillion dollars.

I wonder what size the kickbacks become once the war reaches 3 trillion.

[stateofgrace]

I want to understand your position. I want to you to be very precise in what you say.

I want you to back up eveything you say with fact and evidence. You have stated that it is very obvious why the Sept 11th attacks happened. "Money" was your answer.

Now,fully expand, fully explain, please give a full narrative of why Sept 11th happened. it is obvious , you said.

The floor is yours.

[OldSchool]

I want to understand your position. I want to you to be very precise in what you say.

I want you to back up eveything you say with fact and evidence. You have stated that it is very obvious why the Sept 11th attacks happened. Money was your answer.

Now,fully expand, fully explain, please give a full narrative of why Sept 11th happened. it is obvious , you said.

The floor is yours.

I just did give you the reason. Look above your post.

[16.5]

"I have written a fair amount of Conspiracy papers mostly concerning Cocaine trade in this country."

Well I am sure they are beautifully well reasoned, and well written.

"Professionals generally aren't going to provide support for there movement due to the effect it would have on there career."

Now, forgive me, but can I suggest that people might perhaps take you more seriously if you used the correct words. I was talking to my son yesterday about "there" and "their." He is in third grade.

And maybe actually come up with some facts.

THANKS!

[stateofgrace]

I just did give you the reason. Look above your post.

I asked for a full explanation, a full narrative, not your spin on the Iraq war.

On you go. If it is so obvious it will be easy for you.

I am waiting for your " obvious " narrative.

Back it with facts and evidence, obviously.

[Pardalis]

I was at work on the day of the 9-11 attack. I didn't actually get to see the Planes hit the buildings until that night. I went on with my life and accepted the media's account of the cause. It was many years till I began to reflect the attack. I have written a fair amount of Conspiracy papers mostly concerning Cocaine trade in this country. I don't trust or respect our government. It still took me till late 2005 to begin asking questions relating to 9-11.

translation: You already have a fantasy proned personality and you're a late twoofer.

What I dislike about the Truth movement is they spend to much time debating the small insignificant facts which have no consequence. Professionals generally aren't going to provide support for there movement due to the effect it would have on there career.
translation: You don't like the TM because they keep having their ass handed to them.

Why would any respected Politician, Intel agent, or military agent help a group of middle eastern terrorists carry out 9-11?

- It was a good way to drag our Country into a war.
translation: Your own conspiracy theory contradicts itself.

Why is war a sufficient reason to overlook the lives lost?
I don't know what that means.

Government Contracts to pay for the Iraq operation recently rose above 1 trillion dollars. The total Iraq operations is now estimated to reach at least 3 trillion dollars.
translation: The US government is paying for their own military operations in Iraq (makes sense). The war costs alot.

I wonder what size the kickbacks become once the war reaches 3 trillion.Do you have a point to make?

[OldSchool]

I am not going to spend time editing posts on a Forum. If I catch something when I read it through I'll fix it otherwise I suggest you get a life.

This isn't a formal paper or an attempt at being published, until it is, I will write casually.

[16.5]

I am not going to spend time editing posts on a Forum. If I catch something when I read it through I'll fix it otherwise I suggest you get a life.

This isn't a formal paper or an attempt at being published, until it is, I will write casually.

No problem. If you want people to think you are completely uneducated, and don't give a damn about what you are writing, that is fine with me. Hey, good luck with The Truth.

[calebprime]

The floor is yours.

seconded. don't be distracted, go for it.

[GStan]

I am not going to spend time editing posts on a Forum. If I catch something when I read it through I'll fix it otherwise I suggest you get a life.

This isn't a formal paper or an attempt at being published, until it is, I will write casually.

I think you'll find that a lack of proper grammar skills will be, for the most part, overlooked for those making reasonable arguments supported by evidence. What will not be overlooked is a lack of reasonable arguments and/or evidence. Have you a reasonable argument to make? Or some evidence to support it?

ETA: I would even settle for an unreasonable argument if there was some evidence to support it.

[PB&J]

I am not going to spend time editing posts on a Forum. If I catch something when I read it through I'll fix it otherwise I suggest you get a life.

This isn't a formal paper or an attempt at being published, until it is, I will write casually.

"Casually" doesn't prove anything.

You're entitled to your opinions, but coming here and starting a thread and then refusing to back it up with any kind of factual evidence is just begging to be ridiculed.

Here's my advice, if you want to "casually" believe your claims, thats fine - but don't start threads acting like your opinion is fact.

[OldSchool]

translation: You already have a fantasy proned personality and you're a late twoofer.

translation: You don't like the TM because they keep having their ass handed to them.

translation: Your own conspiracy theory contradicts itself.

I don't know what that means.

translation: The US government is paying for their own military operations in Iraq (makes sense). The war costs alot.

Do you have a point to make?

1. When it became obvious there were no "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq, most began to think for themselves again.

2. The Truth Movement and The anti-Reality movement have a lot in common. Neither side has concrete evidence of anything, except the what they want to see.

3. I don't have a conspiracy theory. The statement doesn't contradict itself.
Please explain why you think it contradicts itself and I will explain further.

4. "Why is War a reason to overlook the lives lost during 9-11 and thereafter?"
-maybe this is clearer

5. Yes Our tax dollars are paying for a war. Where the money is going to pay for the war is quite interesting. I would love to have a complete list of all the special interest groups who have reaped the benefits of the Iraq invasion.


6. Kickbacks are kickbacks and there is always plenty to go around

[OldSchool]

"Casually" doesn't prove anything.

You're entitled to your opinions, but coming here and starting a thread and then refusing to back it up with any kind of factual evidence is just begging to be ridiculed.

Here's my advice, if you want to "casually" believe your claims, thats fine - but don't start threads acting like your opinion is fact.


Casually millions of Americans share my view point. Its amazing how open people have become during casual conversion. I have written many posts before. The majority view point on this forum "Head in the Sand" is minority.

[OldSchool]

I have to go to school I'll see you guys tonight.

[stateofgrace]

Casually millions of Americans share my view point. Its amazing how open people have become during casual conversion. I have written many posts before. The majority view point on this forum "Head in the Sand" is minority.

STOP derailing a thread of your own making.

I have asked you for a full narrative of why the Sept 11th attacks happened. You have said it is obvious.

Now again, on you go. I want you to fully back your statement with fact and evidence.

"Money" was the factor that led to the deaths of 3000 innocent people on Sept 11th, you said. 3000 people from over 70 countries.

Now fully explain.

[Pardalis]

Please explain why you think it contradicts itself and I will explain further.

You're saying your government helped terrorists to have a pretext to wage war against them.

Why would terrorists want to be helped so that a war would be fought against themselves?

4. "Why is War a reason to overlook the lives lost during 9-11 and thereafter?"
-maybe this is clearer


I still don't understand what you mean.

Alot of people engage twoofers here especially because they care about the lives lost on 9/11.

5. Yes Our tax dollars are paying for a war. Where the money is going to pay for the war is quite interesting. I would love to have a complete list of all the special interest groups who have reaped the benefits of the Iraq invasion.

6. Kickbacks are kickbacks and there is always plenty to go around

So why don't you start a thread in the politics forum instead?

[Horatius]

Why would any respected Politician, Intel agent, or military agent help a group of middle eastern terrorists carry out 9-11?

- It was a good way to drag our Country into a war.




Why would they need 9/11 to drag the country into a war? They didn't need it for the first Gulf War, they didn't need it to drag the country into the former Yugoslavia, or Somalia, or Haiti, or Panama. There are many ways to get a country into a war, why choose one that would be almost impossible to pull off, and would have you branded as a murderer and traitor if discovered?


1. When it became obvious there were no "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq, most began to think for themselves again.




...and even after 9/11, it still wasn't sufficient to get them involved in Iraq. Why else would they have trumpeted the WMD issues? And why wouldn't the WMD issues have been good enough to start a war in and of themselves?

You're correct in that 9/11 was good for getting the country into a war, but what you haven't shown is why it was necessary. Why would they have taken the risk, when other, just as good but less risky options, have always worked before?

[SpitfireIX]

<snip>

Professionals generally aren't going to provide support for there movement due to the effect it would have on there career.


What about all the retired professionals? What about all the professionals in North Korea, Iran, Cuba, and Venezuela? What about all the tenured professors? Why aren't any significant number of these people speaking out?

Why would any respected Politician, Intel agent, or military agent help a group of middle eastern terrorists carry out 9-11?

- It was a good way to drag our Country into a war.

<snip>




And why wouldn't any such person help with such an attack. Apart from the issue of morality, what are the risks if the plot is discovered? The plotters will all either go to prison for a very long time (probably the rest of their lives), or, if anyone has died as a result of the plot, they will most likely be executed for murder and/or treason. Further, their political cause will undoubtedly suffer incalculable damage. Suppose that Bush, Cheney, and other senior officials were to be convicted of treason for plotting the September 11 attacks. How many seats do you suppose the Republicans would control in the House of Representatives after the next election?

Also, why would Conspirator Zero feel he could trust Conspirator One enough even to suggest the idea? How would Conspirator Zero be certain enough that Conspirator One would be willing to commit murder and treason just for money (which you imply was the motivation)? And then, how would the conspirators approach other potential recruits? Would they be willing to risk their freedom, or their lives, or the damage to their cause, on the assumption that each recruit will either willingly join, or, if he declines to join, keep silent about the conspiracy?

[16.5]

I have to go to school I'll see you guys tonight.

Uh, "school"? Not "class," "school"?

I guess OldSchool could be an elementary school teacher.

Or perhaps he is not giving us the straight Truth.

Anyway, I am out of here.

[GStan]

Casually millions of Americans share my view point. Its amazing how open people have become during casual conversion. I have written many posts before. The majority view point on this forum "Head in the Sand" is minority.

I don't find Argumentum ad Populum to be as weak as some of the other fallacies used by Truthers in support of their arguments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

What is disturbing is when it is erroneously used in favor of 'the truth', despite that fact that it favors the 'head in the sand' debunkers. Millions of people may share your viewpoint. But hundreds of millions of people share mine. Being in the company of millions, or even hundreds of millions, does not make one's argument correct. Try again. Support your position that 9/11 was a conspiracy to drag us into a war with some evidence please.

Best of luck to you.

[GStan]

I have to go to school I'll see you guys tonight.

Be sure to pay attention.

[uk_dave]

I thought it was spring break.

[gc051360]

1. When it became obvious there were no "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq, most began to think for themselves again.
How would you prove that, and what kind of evidence would you have for that?

The opinions may have changed, and turned to being more anti-Bush and anti-war, but how is that proof of more free thinking?

4. "Why is War a reason to overlook the lives lost during 9-11 and thereafter?"
-maybe this is clearer
I don't get it. Who is overlooking the lives lost on 9-11?

Casually millions of Americans share my view point. Its amazing how open people have become during casual conversion.
Was the "conversion" thing on purpose? And who cares how many people share your viewpoint? It says nothing about the viewpoint itself.


And I'm with everyone else. I'd like to hear your narrative, and the evidence for it.

And, are you making an argument for 9-11 being an inside job? I'm not even really sure right now what it is you're trying to say.

[HyJinX]

I thought it was spring break.

My understanding is that kindergarten doesn't get a spring break.

[twinstead]

I think the reason why it will be hard for OldSchool to provide a narrative is that these aren't rational beliefs; they are ideological issues where there never was a very high standard of proof for him to believe them in the first place.

It's one thing to believe something, it's another to articulate why and provide evidence for such beliefs, IMO. Debating world views is usually pointless.

[Jonnyclueless]

"Professionals generally aren't going to provide support for there movement due to the effect it would have on there career. "

This is a commonly used completely untrue statement. professionals don't support the movement due to there being no real facts to support them. Real professionals are not con artists, they support what they know, not things they make up to mislead people. Professional engineers and demolition experts know the WTC was not a CD, hence they aren't going to support these claims of something they know not to be true. It has nothing to do with them being worried about their careers.

Likewise pointing out that someone profits from something is not evidence they were responsible for it. No matter what happens and in EVERYTHING that ever happens, someone has to make money being involved as no one simply works for free. This is not real research, this is a witch hunt tactic.

[Confuseling]

Calling somebody a Towel Head doesn't make you racist. The last time I checked they do where towels over there heads.

The only party line I tow is to vote for anything that runs against a Republican.

Lets talk about disgusting. Government workers and Military personal who wake up day after day knowing, in the back of there head, what there doing in Iraq is wrong. Yet at the end of each week they collect there pay check and go home.

What I do think is wrong with the Truth movement is [that] they bother to debate how 9-11 was carried out. Who and how 9-11 was carried out may never really be known.? Why 9-11 was carried out continues to be very obvious.??


I don't normally do this. I really don't - in fact, in most cases I consider it a little vulgar. But you realise that one of the definitions of philosophy is the precise use of language, don't you? You have, after all studied it extensively. This isn't sloppy quick typing. Perhaps you're dyslexic. I don't know - and that would reflect nothing against your intelligence. The towel head bit... well, I feel I can leave what that says about you unstated; further words would pale.

There isn't any proof supplied by either side of this debate. By simply looking at History, Economics, and Politics the obvious is very clear.

Do me a favor and prove to me there isn't life on another planet.

Mathematics reveals, to any logical person, the odds of there not being life on another planet is beyond comprehension. Yet neither side of such an argument can provide proof.

With your advanced understanding of philosophy you will realise, of course, that you can't infer probability from a sample size of one? That abductive reasoning through an unsound step is an affirmation of the consequent?

It's just that someone of such erudition might pause, for a moment, and wonder whether it behooves them to sound like some punk kid who glanced through the first chapter of Beyond Good and Evil because they thought it would be 'edgy' to affect to believe that their misinterpretation of it gives them the right to be a Nazi.

[OldSchool]

I'm glad the real would isn't like this forum. Don't get me wrong I know people like you. My father is cut out of the same mold as Beechnut. You people really do love your Government. You love your Government so much you're willing to turn your back and defend them at every turn. When I read on this forum it reminds me of that Scene from the "Matrix" prior to the woman in the Red Dress.

The simple majority of people distrust and dislike the government. When I explain my opinion about the war and 9-11 the most common response is "that wouldn't surprise me at all". People are not so passionate about this topic as what is found here. People generally don't care and go on with there day to day lives.

Truth movement and Anti-Reality Movement such as JREF forum are simply opposites of each other. Much like the struggle found in the Matrix between Neo and Smith.

[Sparky]

You people really do love your Government. You love your Government so much you're willing to turn your back and defend them at every turn. When I read on this forum it reminds me of that Scene from the "Matrix" prior to the woman in the Red Dress.

<snip>

Much like the struggle found in the Matrix between Neo and Smith.

:boggled::eye-poppi:jaw-dropp

You really have no idea about the people here, do you?

[stateofgrace]

This is not the matrix, this is the real world. Populated by grown ups who in the real world are quiet entitled to ask you to back up your claims.

You claimed that the Sept 11th attacks were quite obviously carried out for money.

Now,back up your claim ,with a full explanation and/or narrative or retract your claim and admit you cannot back it up. Admit, as people do in the real world, that you cannot offer a full explanation of your statement and you are unprepared to do so.

PS, I am not from the US, I care nothing for Bush and his Goverment so stop derailing your thread further.

[funk de fino]

I'm glad the real would isn't like this forum. Don't get me wrong I know people like you. My father is cut out of the same mold as Beechnut. You people really do love your Government. You love your Government so much you're willing to turn your back and defend them at every turn. When I read on this forum it reminds me of that Scene from the "Matrix" prior to the woman in the Red Dress.

The simple majority of people distrust and dislike the government. When I explain my opinion about the war and 9-11 the most common response is "that wouldn't surprise me at all". People are not so passionate about this topic as what is found here. People generally don't care and go on with there day to day lives.

Truth movement and Anti-Reality Movement such as JREF forum are simply opposites of each other. Much like the struggle found in the Matrix between Neo and Smith.

I hate my government. I hate your government. I do not defend them, I defend the actual facts as they stand not the made up lies and falsehoods promoted by the stoopid truthers that come here. Your govt has not told me what to believe and my govt has not told me what to believe.

Anyone who believes that the war in Iraq is about oil and money is a moron and knows nothing about the oil industry. I work in the oil industry and know better than the morons.

Anyone who references the Matrix cannot speak about the real world in the same breath and be taken seriously.

Aren't you the one who claimed his thesis papers were stolen when asked to supply them or something or am I mixing you up with another trutherbot?

[16.5]

"Much like the struggle found in the Matrix between Neo and Smith."

Oh brother. Real life is not a movie.

Hey, how was school? How much homework did you get?

[OldSchool]

:boggled::eye-poppi:jaw-dropp

You really have no idea about the people here, do you?

The people who are regulars on this forum are as transparent as they come.

I notice my Matrix correlation went over the heads of a few already. There is a moral to every story and most often not literally apparent. I'm not expecting to many JREF'ers to appreciate such a work of art.

[gc051360]

Truth movement and Anti-Reality Movement such as JREF forum are simply opposites of each other.
True. The people who post on JREF, usually rely on facts, and evidence + logical conclusions, based on that evidence. Truthers seem to be the opposite of that.

Much like the struggle found in the Matrix between Neo and Smith.
Truthers love to compare themselves to Neo for some reason.

I'm not expecting to many JREF'ers to appreciate such a work of art.
The Matrix?? I always thought Dark City did a better job of exploring the same philosophical stuff. The Matrix is pretty overrated in regards to that aspect.

[Sparky]

The people who are regulars on this forum are as transparent as they come.

I notice my Matrix correlation went over the heads of a few already. There is a moral to every story and most often not literally apparent. I'm not expecting to many JREF'ers to appreciate such a work of art.

In case you didn't notice (which you didn't), a majority of the regular posters on this board do NOT love the present government. There is another large group who post here who are not U.S. residents or citizens. I've noticed that most of them have no love for my government either.

By the way, I liked Matrix. As a work of fiction, of course.

[OldSchool]

This is not the matrix, this is the real world. Populated by grown ups who in the real world are quiet entitled to ask you to back up your claims.

You claimed that the Sept 11th attacks were quite obviously carried out for money.

Now,back up your claim ,with a full explanation and/or narrative or retract your claim and admit you cannot back it up. Admit, as people do in the real world, that you cannot offer a full explanation of your statement and you are unprepared to do so.

PS, I am not from the US, I care nothing for Bush and his Goverment so stop derailing your thread further.

What do I need to prove. This is where I disagree with the Truth Movement. There is no sense trying to support the obvious. Historically money and power always dictate if and when a war occurs. I would have no problem supporting my case,(by your standards), if President Bush would give me access to all his "privileged" documents.

What exactly are you looking for proof of?

That 9-11 was a major step allowing for temporary popular support of a war to line of the pockets of special interests.

That it was not just coincidence the Vice President ordered the largest NORAD training mission in history, on the day of 9-11.

Maybe you would like me to explain why Telecoms need immunity to further protect the illegal activities of the current white house.

Possibly I need to provide proof 3 trillion dollars in government contracts isn't worth the lives of a few thousand innocent lives to the powerful.

[Jonnyclueless]

Oldschool, does it help to dismiss people as simply being in love with the government when they counter your claims? Does that make it easier for you by just pretending people only say what they say because they "love" the government?

Should we just start dismissing you and say "Well, he is just a lunatic straight out of the funny farm, so that is why he thinks what he does"? Don't pretend to know what other people think just because they don't agree with you please.

[stateofgrace]

What do I need to prove. This is where I disagree with the Truth Movement. There is no sense trying to support the obvious. Historically money and power always dictate if and when a war occurs. I would have no problem supporting my case,(by your standards), if President Bush would give me access to all his "privileged" documents.

So you cannot support your case. Debate over. Stop making claims you cannot support.

Possibly I need to provide proof 3 trillion dollars in government contracts isn't worth the lives of a few thousand innocent lives to the powerful.

Yes you do. You made the claim, proceed or withdraw your claim.

[funk de fino]

What do I need to prove. This is where I disagree with the Truth Movement. There is no sense trying to support the obvious. Historically money and power always dictate if and when a war occurs. I would have no problem supporting my case,(by your standards), if President Bush would give me access to all his "privileged" documents.

What exactly are you looking for proof of?

That 9-11 was a major step allowing for temporary popular support of a war to line of the pockets of special interests.

That it was not just coincidence the Vice President ordered the largest NORAD training mission in history, on the day of 9-11.
Maybe you would like me to explain why Telecoms need immunity to further protect the illegal activities of the current white house.

Possibly I need to provide proof 3 trillion dollars in government contracts isn't worth the lives of a few thousand innocent lives to the powerful.

Stop lying OS

ETA - And while you are at it please provide the percentage profits that you think KBR made from Iraq contracts. Just for starters so we can get into the real meat of your false claims

[OldSchool]

True. The people who post on JREF, usually rely on facts, and evidence + logical conclusions, based on that evidence. Truthers seem to be the opposite of that.


Truthers love to compare themselves to Neo for some reason.


The Matrix?? I always thought Dark City did a better job of exploring the same philosophical stuff. The Matrix is pretty overrated in regards to that aspect.

This is where I disagree. The JREF posters don't rely upon facts. They rely on documents perceived as creditable from there perspective. To me the NIST report is no more creditable than a article written for Prison Planet.

Truthers tend to fit the part much like the regulars on this forum tend to fit the part of the antagonist.

I don't always agree with the "truth movement" however I see them as good striving for what is right, just,and true. Exposing secrets is always the best thing for everybody.

I enjoyed Loose Change and especially Zeitgeist. I have never seen any of either film debunked with creditable evidence. Both serve only a positive function, which is counter the Corporate media's limited account of the events.

[SpitfireIX]

OldSchool, kindly respond to the questions I asked in post #18.

[gc051360]

What do I need to prove. This is where I disagree with the Truth Movement. There is no sense trying to support the obvious

So, you think the Truth Movement tries too hard to bring proof? Because, in your world, proof doesn't matter?

Historically money and power always dictate if and when a war occurs
If true, so what?

I would have no problem supporting my case,(by your standards), if President Bush would give me access to all his "privileged" documents.
So, your proof lies in documents, that may or may not exist. But you believe, these documents...which you've never seen, support your case? That's insane. There is something wrong with your brain if you believe that.

What exactly are you looking for proof of?
What exactly are you claiming? Because, that is what I would need proof of.

That 9-11 was a major step allowing for temporary popular support of a war to line of the pockets of special interests.
No. That Bush had a hand in orchestrating 9-11.

That it was not just coincidence the Vice President ordered the largest NORAD training mission in history, on the day of 9-11.
This has been covered, quite a bit.

Maybe you would like me to explain why Telecoms need immunity to further protect the illegal activities of the current white house.
If you could explain to me the relevance of Telecom to 9-11.....

Possibly I need to provide proof 3 trillion dollars in government contracts isn't worth the lives of a few thousand innocent lives to the powerful.
No. you'd need to prove that the government had a hand in perpetrating 9-11.

[OldSchool]

Stop lying OS

ETA - And while you are at it please provide the percentage profits that you think KBR made from Iraq contracts. Just for starters so we can get into the real meat of your false claims

You're obviously one of the more naive or corrupt members of the JREF forum. I can never really tell one from the other. As for Dick Cheney ording the single largest NORAD training mission on the day of 9-11. I never thought that had been disputed by anybody. It was the reason given for the planes never being shot down, aside from the one plane they got over Pennsylvania. Of course these training missions were just a coincidence.

I could spend a great deal of time finding the limited documents available showing profits of Special Interests related to the war. It wouldn't be a full account because many aren't available. Furthermore, I have a lot of better things to do than waste my time providing information which is going to be discounted simply because of who I am.

[twinstead]

This is where I disagree. The JREF posters don't rely upon facts. They rely on documents perceived as creditable from there perspective. To me the NIST report is no more creditable than a article written for Prison Planet.

Truthers tend to fit the part much like the regulars on this forum tend to fit the part of the antagonist.

I don't always agree with the "truth movement" however I see them as good striving for what is right, just,and true. Exposing secrets is always the best thing for everybody.

I enjoyed Loose Change and especially Zeitgeist. I have never seen any of either film debunked with creditable evidence. Both serve only a positive function, which is counter the Corporate media's limited account of the events.

The problem is that you would accept NO debunking of LC or Zeitgeist. Your world view demands you demonize the NIST and ANY report, from the government or others such as Purdue University or Popular Mechanics, that in any way, shape, or form supports the 'official story'.

The 'official story' has a HUGE amount of evidence that supports it. You think it comes from the government exclusively and we are just believing whatever the government tells us, but you HAVE to believe that. You HAVE to ignore this evidence. You have no wiggle room. This is the classic and unfortunate position that an ideologue must assume.

You are exactly what you declare us of being. You equate a report written by and contributed to by dozens of bonafied experts in the relevant fields--whose findings are accepted by legitimate scientific and engineering communities world wide and whose finding are actually changing building codes world wide--with an ideologically biased propaganda internet website.

Yea. We've never seen this before...;)

[OldSchool]

So, you think the Truth Movement tries too hard to bring proof? Because, in your world, proof doesn't matter?


If true, so what?


So, your proof lies in documents, that may or may not exist. But you believe, these documents...which you've never seen, support your case? That's insane. There is something wrong with your brain if you believe that.


What exactly are you claiming? Because, that is what I would need proof of.


No. That Bush had a hand in orchestrating 9-11.


This has been covered, quite a bit.

If you could explain to me the relevance of Telecom to 9-11.....


No. you'd need to prove that the government had a hand in perpetrating 9-11.


President Bush and Dick Cheney are very luck we are innocent until proven guilty in this country.

otherwise I guess I would ask you to prove the government didn't have a hand in perpetrating 9-11.

[16.5]

I don't always agree with the "truth movement" however I see them as good striving for what is right, just,and true. Exposing secrets is always the best thing for everybody.

I enjoyed Loose Change and especially Zeitgeist. I have never seen any of either film debunked with creditable evidence. Both serve only a positive function, which is counter the Corporate media's limited account of the events.

Now we are getting somewhere! Which Loose Change did you enjoy. The first one, or the second one, or that other one, or the last one? They are all pretty "good"!

Wasn't it a laugh riot how they all contradicted one another? Did you burst out laughing like I did when they said that the plane that hit the Pentagon left no debris, and what was left was barely scratched, while on the screen they had a picture of a horribly mangled piece of the fuselage in AA colors!

I see you like fiction.

"To me the NIST report is no more creditable than a article written for Prison Planet."

:jaw-dropp

[gc051360]

This is where I disagree. The JREF posters don't rely upon facts. They rely on documents perceived as creditable from there perspective. To me the NIST report is no more creditable than a article written for Prison Planet.

Truthers tend to fit the part much like the regulars on this forum tend to fit the part of the antagonist.

I don't always agree with the "truth movement" however I see them as good striving for what is right, just,and true. Exposing secrets is always the best thing for everybody.

I enjoyed Loose Change and especially Zeitgeist. I have never seen any of either film debunked with creditable evidence. Both serve only a positive function, which is counter the Corporate media's limited account of the events.

You don't see any difference between NIST and Prisonplanet? Then there is something wrong with your brain, and the way that you think.

The Truth movement strives for what is right, just and true? Why do they lie so much then? What is just about falsely accusing the government of murder?

If you haven't seen Loose Change debunked, you haven't been looking hard enough.

President Bush and Dick Cheney are very luck we are innocent until proven guilty in this country.
So is everybody.

Otherwise I guess I would ask you to prove the government didn't have a hand in perpetrating 9-11.
Prove dragons don't exist.

Prove a negative. Go for it.

ETA: What is that even supposed to be saying? I re-read what you were saying OldSchool, and I don't get it. I think this is Stundie material. That's one of the dumbest statements I've ever seen.

[OldSchool]

The problem is that you would accept NO debunking of LC or Zeitgeist. Your world view demands you demonize the NIST and ANY report, from the government or others such as Purdue University or Popular Mechanics, that in any way, shape, or form supports the 'official story'.

The 'official story' has a HUGE amount of evidence that supports it. You think it comes from the government exclusively and we are just believing whatever the government tells us, but you HAVE to believe that. You HAVE to ignore this evidence. You have no wiggle room. This is the classic and unfortunate position that an ideologue must assume.

You are exactly what you declare us of being. You equate a report written by and contributed to by dozens of bonafied experts in the relevant fields--whose findings are accepted by legitimate scientific and engineering communities world wide and whose finding are actually changing building codes world wide--with an ideologically biased propaganda internet website.

Yea. We've never seen this before...;)

NIST has been exposed time and time again as a fraud. This has been debated quite often and the facts are certainly not on your side. Give me one good reason why I should believe anything the government releases as official.

I did like the government funded report on Dolphins. Did you know Dolphins are the only other species beside Humans which engages in Sex for pleasure. The study used over 1 million dollars in tax payers money.

[Brainache]

You're obviously one of the more naive or corrupt members of the JREF forum. I can never really tell one from the other. As for Dick Cheney ording the single largest NORAD training mission on the day of 9-11. I never thought that had been disputed by anybody. It was the reason given for the planes never being shot down, aside from the one plane they got over Pennsylvania. Of course these training missions were just a coincidence.

I could spend a great deal of time finding the limited documents available showing profits of Special Interests related to the war. It wouldn't be a full account because many aren't available. Furthermore, I have a lot of better things to do than waste my time providing information which is going to be discounted simply because of who I am.

You really have no idea of what you're talking about, do you OldSchool?

The NORAD exercise involved command centres and actually resulted in more people being in position to cope with the emergency than might otherwise have been the case.

The whole question of NORAD's stand down or war games or whatever they did or didn't do on 9/11 has been covered extensively on this forum. You could try checking posts by Gumboot or one or two others (I believe we have one of the ATCs who was on duty that day posting here, sorry I can't recall the name ATM.).

[gc051360]

NIST has been exposed time and time again as a fraud.
This is the type of argument, you need to support with facts.

This has been debated quite often and the facts are certainly not on your side
Logic, is not your friend.

[OldSchool]

You don't see any difference between NIST and Prisonplanet? Then there is something wrong with your brain, and the way that you think.

The Truth movement strives for what is right, just and true? Why do they lie so much then? What is just about falsely accusing the government of murder?

If you haven't seen Loose Change debunked, you haven't been looking hard enough.


So is everybody.


Prove dragons don't exist.

Prove a negative. Go for it.

1. The biggest lies always come from the government. I've seen things on Prison Planet which make me laugh, but NIST is just as big a lie as those. The problem is NIST's lies are not funny.

2. Our government and its intel have committed murder through out the world for many years. During the 1960s there was quite a few college students murdered by the government. So I guess 9-11 wouldn't be the first time.

There is nothing in Loose Change which is a lie. There may be things which evidence to the contrary has been presented. I am not satisfied with the creditability of those sources. So the debate continues and this is the problem both sides of the equation can't escape.

[Brainache]

...
I did like the government funded report on Dolphins. Did you know Dolphins are the only other species beside Humans which engages in Sex for pleasure. The study used over 1 million dollars in tax payers money.

Ever heard of Bonobos? Maybe you didn't read the report very closely.

[twinstead]

NIST has been exposed time and time again as a fraud. This has been debated quite often and the facts are certainly not on your side. Give me one good reason why I should believe anything the government releases as official.


See. I told you that you think that there is one 'official story' and it only comes from the government. This is not true. The 'one good reason' is because the generally accepted view of the events of that day just may be the closest to the truth based on ALL available evidence. You can continue to hate the government all you want; hell I hate the government in many ways myself, especially GWB. The two beliefs are not incompatible.

In other words, you'd be surprised at just how most of the members of this forum who think the 'official story' is the one that fits the available evidence the best view the US government and GWB in particular.



I did like the government funded report on Dolphins. Did you know Dolphins are the only other species beside Humans which engages in Sex for pleasure. The study used over 1 million dollars in tax payers money.So you give me an example of a report whose conclusions you don't say are fabricated, but that it was a waste of time.

Interesting. If you believe NIST was simply a waste of time, that's your opinion--nothing wrong with that (of course that means you don't care about making buildings safer, but that's not within the scope of this post). But if you say the NISTs conclusions aren't supported by evidence, the the burden of proof is on you to show exactly what.

Maybe you can start a thread. That's what we need ANOTHER thread about how the NIST report is 'full of crap'.

[gc051360]

The problem is NIST's lies are not funny.
Can you give me an example of a NIST lie?

Our government and its intel have committed murder through out the world for many years. During the 1960s there was quite a few college students murdered by the government. So I guess 9-11 wouldn't be the first time.
Are you comparing Kent State to 9-11?

There is nothing in Loose Change which is a lie. There may be things which evidence to the contrary has been presented. I am not satisfied with the creditability of those sources. So the debate continues and this is the problem both sides of the equation can't escape.
It's not our problem, that you disregard credible evidence. That's entirely your problem.

[OldSchool]

You really have no idea of what you're talking about, do you OldSchool?

The NORAD exercise involved command centres and actually resulted in more people being in position to cope with the emergency than might otherwise have been the case.

The whole question of NORAD's stand down or war games or whatever they did or didn't do on 9/11 has been covered extensively on this forum. You could try checking posts by Gumboot or one or two others (I believe we have one of the ATCs who was on duty that day posting here, sorry I can't recall the name ATM.).

What this forum has to say is no more than information provided from government account. The exercises were ordered by Dick Cheney which it isn't normal for the Vice President to order NORAD operations. I believe it was also the first time ever a Vice President ordered such a training mission. If there were more "Fighter Jets" in position, how exactly did our National Defense Center "The Pentagon", get hit. Its all amazingly coincidental.

[Confuseling]

He's not even a troll.

Don't feed Dr. Strangelove?

[16.5]

Ever heard of Bonobos? Maybe you didn't read the report very closely.

Hee hee, I was thinking the exact same thing.

Losse Change has no lies? Hmm, he must have skipped the part about Flight 93, and the fact that one of those knuckleheads flat out said that Loose Change contained errors, but they left them in so that people would do their own research.

Sad, OldSchool seems to accept every piece of BS woo the tubes can dish up.

[OldSchool]

Can you give me an example of a NIST lie?


Are you comparing Kent State to 9-11?


It's not our problem, that you disregard credible evidence. That's entirely your problem.

NIST presented results based upon experiments with ever changing controls.

Can you provide non-government related documents which contradict the major points of Loose Change?

[twinstead]

If there were more "Fighter Jets" in position, how exactly did are National Defense Center "The Pentagon", get hit. Its all amazingly coincidental.

Ah the old argument from incredulity. You just "don't believe it", therefore it must be fake. Tell you what, until you provide some credible evidence it all remains 'amazingly coincidental' doesn't it?

Oh, and LC is full of lies. It started out in version one ALL lies, now they've tightened up to mostly lies. You want to know the lies? Maybe we'll trade one for one. Tell us a lie by NIST, and we'll tell you a lie by LC. Fair?

Search the forum. There have been dozens of threads about LC. You want to defend LC? Start a thread. LC is crap.

[twinstead]

Can you provide non-government related documents which contradict the major points of Loose Change?

Search the forum. Or just look up to the stickys. There's 3 threads right there about LC.

[HyJinX]

Logic, is not your friend.

wootube.com gives him all the logic necessary :rolleyes:

[OldSchool]

I didn't think you could provide creditable (non-government) documents disputing Loose Change. I'm still waiting for a completely independent report from your side. There hasn't been any. I don't care to search your forum for Loose Change posts. I've read in the past and all I've seen is debate based upon NIST.

Is it a lie when a document is released with official results stating what is to perceived as scientific fact, yet the scientific method used was tainted through altering the control within experiments?

If this isn't a lie then it is worse.

This of course doesn't even touch upon the actions of Government Lawyer's interference with the production of the NIST report.

It also doesn't touch upon the actions of Mayor Juliani with crime scene evidence.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I'm still waiting for a completely independent report from your side. There hasn't been any.


Wow... And why do you think it's necessary for us to put one together? You're the one questioning the existing body of work, remember?

ETA: Oh, snap! I get it. That "independent investigation" you all keep crying about. You want us to do it! Awesome...

[OldSchool]

What about all the retired professionals? What about all the professionals in North Korea, Iran, Cuba, and Venezuela? What about all the tenured professors? Why aren't any significant number of these people speaking out?




And why wouldn't any such person help with such an attack. Apart from the issue of morality, what are the risks if the plot is discovered? The plotters will all either go to prison for a very long time (probably the rest of their lives), or, if anyone has died as a result of the plot, they will most likely be executed for murder and/or treason. Further, their political cause will undoubtedly suffer incalculable damage. Suppose that Bush, Cheney, and other senior officials were to be convicted of treason for plotting the September 11 attacks. How many seats do you suppose the Republicans would control in the House of Representatives after the next election?

Also, why would Conspirator Zero feel he could trust Conspirator One enough even to suggest the idea? How would Conspirator Zero be certain enough that Conspirator One would be willing to commit murder and treason just for money (which you imply was the motivation)? And then, how would the conspirators approach other potential recruits? Would they be willing to risk their freedom, or their lives, or the damage to their cause, on the assumption that each recruit will either willingly join, or, if he declines to join, keep silent about the conspiracy?

I have seen and linked a document signed by such professionals asking for a new Independent investigation into 9-11. It was also signed by many who lost family and friends to 9-11.

All the questions ( what ifs) you ask are good ones. As the war approaches 3 trillion dollars in government contracts, most likely more when considering classified programs, there is plenty of money to go around. The point you make about keeping those who would decline to join such a conspiracy is a good one. That one makes the imagination run wild into the realm of murder and or accidents. Whistle blowers need proof so reputation is another factor to consider.

I'm not holding my breath, but I hope there is a Bush/Cheyne Trial of some sort. The Telecom situation could lead to such a trial. If there were laws broken concerning wire tapping maybe a trial would reveal more than what either bargained for. I don't think Hillary Clinton would allow such an investigation/trial although Obama may. Only time will tell and I would enjoy a good public execution.

[bynmdsue]

I didn't actually get to see the Planes hit the buildings...

sounds like a whiny kid what missed a parade

[gc051360]

I have seen and linked a document signed by such professionals asking for a new Independent investigation into 9-11.
AE911truth???

Would I be allowed to link to anything like the Popular Mechanics article, or the paper by Bazant, or the Implosion world article as things "debunking loose change" or are these all "based on NIST"??

ETA:
Only time will tell and I would enjoy a good public execution.
You want to execute someone, with no evidence. Like I said. Something is severely wrong with your thought process.

[~enigma~]

What I dislike about the Truth movement is they spend to much time debating the small insignificant facts which have no consequence. Professionals generally aren't going to provide support for there movement due to the effect it would have on there career.
The fact that the vast majority of the truth movement are a bunch of nazi wannabe trash isn't a reason? Do you condone their anti-semitism?

[stateofgrace]

1. The biggest lies always come from the government. I've seen things on Prison Planet which make me laugh, but NIST is just as big a lie as those. The problem is NIST's lies are not funny.

2. Our government and its intel have committed murder through out the world for many years. During the 1960s there was quite a few college students murdered by the government. So I guess 9-11 wouldn't be the first time.

There is nothing in Loose Change which is a lie. There may be things which evidence to the contrary has been presented. I am not satisfied with the creditability of those sources. So the debate continues and this is the problem both sides of the equation can't escape.

I would enjoy a good public execution.So you would gladly show Loose change in a court of law and ask for the death sentence based on it,would you?

[~enigma~]

When I read on this forum it reminds me of that Scene from the "Matrix" prior to the woman in the Red Dress.
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1325747b716e492d7e.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=10843)http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1325747b716e492d7e.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=10843)http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1325747b716e492d7e.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=10843)

[~enigma~]

The people who are regulars on this forum are as transparent as they come.

I notice my Matrix correlation went over the heads of a few already. There is a moral to every story and most often not literally apparent. I'm not expecting to many JREF'ers to appreciate such a work of art.
You wouldn't be that moron Erich from Indiana otherwise known as Orwell's Ghost are you? Your posts are just as stupid as his.

[Confuseling]

President Bush and Dick Cheney are very luck we are innocent until proven guilty in this country.

otherwise I guess I would ask you to prove the government didn't have a hand in perpetrating 9-11.

Have you considered posting in caps-lock?


PRESIDENT BUSH AND DICK CHENEY ARE VERY LUCK WE ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY IN THIS COUNTRY!

OTHERWISE I GUESS I WOULD ASK YOU TO PROVE THE GOVERNMENT DIDN'T HAVE A HAND IN PERPETRATING 9-11!!!


It'd make you look a bit like you're shouting.

[~enigma~]

As for Dick Cheney ording the single largest NORAD training mission on the day of 9-11. I never thought that had been disputed by anybody. It was the reason given for the planes never being shot down, aside from the one plane they got over Pennsylvania.
Paging Gumboot...you are needed for a spill in aisle OldSchool :D

[beachnut]

I was at work on the day of the 9-11 attack. I didn't actually get to see the Planes hit the buildings until that night. I went on with my life and accepted the media's account of the cause. It was many years till I began to reflect the attack. I have written a fair amount of Conspiracy papers mostly concerning Cocaine trade in this country. I don't trust or respect our government. It still took me till late 2005 to begin asking questions relating to 9-11.

What I dislike about the Truth movement is they spend to much time debating the small insignificant facts which have no consequence. Professionals generally aren't going to provide support for there movement due to the effect it would have on there career.

Why would any respected Politician, Intel agent, or military agent help a group of middle eastern terrorists carry out 9-11?

- It was a good way to drag our Country into a war.

Why is war a sufficient reason to overlook the lives lost?

Government Contracts to pay for the Iraq operation recently rose above 1 trillion dollars. The total Iraq operations is now estimated to reach at least 3 trillion dollars.

I wonder what size the kickbacks become once the war reaches 3 trillion.
Sorry, but peace makes all of us more money. You must of missed GE stock rising 6 times value during the 90s. So sad.

You would have been really upset with the Vietnam war. It cost a lot more in GDP than Iraq. Plus you must not pay attention, Iraq has not a thing to do with the truth movement and 9/11. Why are truthers so challenged to figure out cause and effect.

How is that book coming? Remember the book about us? Were is the book. Where in the would is the book? (see future posts, in the past)

[OldSchool]

The fact that the vast majority of the truth movement are a bunch of nazi wannabe trash isn't a reason? Do you condone their anti-semitism?

I do have blond hair and blue eyes so I fit the perfect mold I guess.

The only contact I ever had with somebody who was Jewish was during my Sophomore year in College. He was a very good Astronomy teacher. He gave me an A on my paper detailing the possibilities of microscopic life on Mars, which lead up to an A in his class. I thought he was an all around good guy. Kind of quiet and to himself but he was a good teacher.

I'm far from racist. I have black and Hispanic friends. I have more respect for them than anything I've seen here. Most of them are also far more educated and certainly "Free Minded" than anything found on this forum.

[OldSchool]

Sorry, but peace makes all of us more money. You must of missed GE stock rising 6 times value during the 90s. So sad.

You would have been really upset with the Vietnam war. It cost a lot more in GDP than Iraq. Plus you must not pay attention, Iraq has not a thing to do with the truth movement and 9/11. Why are truthers so challenged to figure out cause and effect.

How is that book coming? Remember the book about us? Were is the book. Where in the would is the book? (see future posts, in the past)

You haven't taken your History lessons.

War creates government contracts- over 1 trillion dollars currently

Government Contracts pad the wallets of Special Interests who the Republicans cherish.

Government Contracts create Jobs in large quantities.

Imagine where our economy would be at if it wasn't for the stimulus created by the war.

I guess what all the truthers have been saying about the World Banking system is a becoming a tad bit more of a reality these days.


What exactly does GE have to do with the war. Stock Prices of companies on government payroll would be a little bit more relevant. The price of there stock before the war and what it is currently.

[Corsair 115]

Imagine where our economy would be at if it wasn't for the stimulus created by the war. I'd rather imagine where it would be were it not for the lax financial regulations and shoddy financial practices which led to the subprime mortgage debacle and consequent credit crisis.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Imagine where our economy would be at if it wasn't for the stimulus created by the war.


My God... I might still be paying US$2.30/gallon of gas. The horror!

[PB&J]

The only contact I ever had with somebody who was Jewish was during my Sophomore year in College. He was a very good Astronomy teacher. He gave me an A on my paper detailing the possibilities of microscopic life on Mars, which lead up to an A in his class.

Heh. High school Astronomy teacher/Exo-biologist, eeh.. whats the difference? :D

[beachnut]

You haven't taken your History lessons.

War creates government contracts- over 1 trillion dollars currently

Government Contracts pad the wallets of Special Interests who the Republicans cherish.

Government Contracts create Jobs in large quantities.

Imagine where our economy would be at if it wasn't for the stimulus created by the war.

I guess what all the truthers have been saying about the World Banking system is a becoming a tad bit more of a reality these days.


What exactly does GE have to do with the war. Stock Prices of companies on government payroll would be a little bit more relevant. The price of there stock before the war and what it is currently.
You are stuck in a fantasy world of CT. GDP percent of this war is still behind Vietnam, you missed the big war protest and now your 9/11 war protest is messed up. GE, would have made you 6 times your money in the 90s, but during war things go bad; hard to sell war. You should stick to anti-war stuff, your 9/11 stuff lacks evidence. No book yet? How will the would see you.

If you are upset with the contracts, start a company and compete in the real world. By all means, do not take action, that would be anti-truther.

[quote=OldSchool;3539673]... I would enjoy a good public execution. /quote]
You have friends at p4t?

[gc051360]

War creates government contracts- over 1 trillion dollars currently
So what?
Government Contracts pad the wallets of Special Interests who the Republicans cherish.
So what? That's what I say to most of your post. So what?

What exactly does GE have to do with the war. Stock Prices of companies on government payroll would be a little bit more relevant. The price of there stock before the war and what it is currently.

(edited this little part completely)

GE makes equipment for the military, currently being used in Iraq and Afghanistan, and are also helping with the rebuilding of Iraq. They are one of the companies who get those government contracts you are talking about.

If you want me to post some links verifying this, and verifying what they make, I will.

[funk de fino]

You're obviously one of the more naive or corrupt members of the JREF forum. I can never really tell one from the other. As for Dick Cheney ording the single largest NORAD training mission on the day of 9-11. I never thought that had been disputed by anybody. It was the reason given for the planes never being shot down, aside from the one plane they got over Pennsylvania. Of course these training missions were just a coincidence.

You repeat the lie. Show us the order Dick gave ordering an excercise on that day and show us that it was the largest single excercise that NORAD ever undertook. (remember I am ex UK forces, I have been involved in some pretty large excercises alongside the US forces)

It was not the reason given for planes not being shot down except by truthers who did not know any better.

If you cannot then retract your lie then apologise for calling me corrupt.

I could spend a great deal of time finding the limited documents available showing profits of Special Interests related to the war. It wouldn't be a full account because many aren't available. Furthermore, I have a lot of better things to do than waste my time providing information which is going to be discounted simply because of who I am.

I am asking you to get publicly available financial documents about a specific company that was linked to Cheney and is the scapegoat for trurthers when it comes to war profiteeering. Then I want you to show me how these profits support your position. You are running away on this either because you have not researched it (in which case your claims are unsupportted) or you already know the profits and tey do not support you either. Which is it OS?

Be careful, I work in the oil industry I will know if you are being false and incorrect.

[funk de fino]

What exactly does GE have to do with the war. Stock Prices of companies on government payroll would be a little bit more relevant. The price of there stock before the war and what it is currently.

You have no idea about stock prices do you?

[jhunter1163]

I believe we have one of the ATCs who was on duty that day posting here, sorry I can't recall the name ATM.

Poster CheapShot is who you're thinking of. He was one of the ATCs on duty in Boston Center on 9/11.

[Dave Rogers]

That it was not just coincidence the Vice President ordered the largest NORAD training mission in history, on the day of 9-11.

It wasn't coincidence. It wasn't fact either.

As for Dick Cheney ording the single largest NORAD training mission on the day of 9-11. I never thought that had been disputed by anybody. It was the reason given for the planes never being shot down, aside from the one plane they got over Pennsylvania.

The fact that you never thought something is relevant only to your own lack of knowledge. It has been widely disputed that Cheney had any role whatsoever in the exercises on and before 9-11; if it's not been disputed that he personally ordered them, it's only because the suggestion is too absurd to be worth disputing.

http://www.911myths.com/html/cheney_in_charge_of_norad.html

There is an unsupported allegation from Mike Ruppert that Cheney "oversaw" the exercises on and before 9-11. Even Ruppert doesn't go so far as to suggest that Cheney personally ordered the exercises carried out. Therefore, you've started from a speculation without evidence, extended that speculation with your own further speculation, and presented the result as fact.

And as for the exercises being "the reason given for the planes never being shot down", it's only the reason given by conspiracy theorists. The reason given by people examining reality is that there wasn't time, given the processes in place on the day, between the time any specific airliner went off course and the time that same airliner crashed to make an interception. As for the argument that there was enough time between Flight 11 going off course and Flight 93 crashing, it's irrelevant; the hijacking of flight 11 gave no useful information about the future hijacking or the courses of flights 175, 77 and 93.

And finally, in this misinformation salad, you've mentioned "the one plane they got over Pennsylvania." I should perhaps point out that, again, it's only conspiracy theorists who believe that flight 93 was shot down. Do you ever look at non-conspiracist sources? If not, that might explain why you're so ignorant of the actual events of 9-11.

The exercises were ordered by Dick Cheney which it isn't normal for the Vice President to order NORAD operations. I believe it was also the first time ever a Vice President ordered such a training mission. If there were more "Fighter Jets" in position, how exactly did our National Defense Center "The Pentagon", get hit. Its all amazingly coincidental.

Repeating it doesn't make it true. As for the coincidence, it's quite easy to see coincidences between two events if you're allowed to make one of them up yourself.

Dave

[OldSchool]

The discussion about war being bad for economy is the funniest thing I've ever heard come from this forum. War creates nothing except contracts and jobs. The cost is taken from tax dollars which already were payed. At what point does war lower production? There would have to be an economical decline somewhere. A decline directly connected to the war. The Bush Administration has failed to fix our Economy. This is one of the areas which isn't his fault. Many factors for our failing economy were in place before he took office. The decline in GDP would have been far worse minus a war.

Dick Cheyne ordered the training mission on 9-11. Show me creditable evidence to over turn this fact. I've never seen anything anywhere to dispute this not even your typical government documents. Dick Cheyne is the master mind of this administration if anybody had a connection to foul play it was him. So prove he wasn't in charge that day. When the facts are protected by presidential privledge the ball is in your court to prove he isn't hiding something.

[DavidJames]

The discussion about war being bad for economy is the funniest thing I've ever heard come from this forum. War creates nothing except contracts and jobs. The cost is taken from tax dollars which already were payed. At what point does war lower production? There would have to be an economical decline somewhere. A decline directly connected to the war. The Bush Administration has failed to fix our Economy. This is one of the areas which isn't his fault. Many factors for our failing economy were in place before he took office. The decline in GDP would have been far worse minus a war.

Dick Cheyne ordered the training mission on 9-11. Show me creditable evidence to over turn this fact. I've never seen anything anywhere to dispute this not even your typical government documents. Dick Cheyne is the master mind of this administration if anybody had a connection to foul play it was him. So prove he wasn't in charge that day. When the facts are protected by presidential privledge the ball is in your court to prove he isn't hiding something.

OldSchool - a couple of hints to help keep you from continuing to embarrass yourself.

1. Learn how to spell check and learn how to spell peoples names. You may think concern over spelling is trivial but it can be an indication of sloppy thinking and suggests the writer is not concerned over details and precision.
2. Learn to support your opinions with facts. For example, consider the part of your quote above I placed in bold. Simply stating something is a fact doesn't make it so. You need to provide the evidence to support your assertion.

So far in this thread I have seen you make numerous proclamations of "facts" but have consistently failed to support them with evidence. When you combine that with the sloppy writing and poor spelling I'm afraid you come across rather poorly.

If you wish to be taken seriously, please consider my suggestions.

[Dave Rogers]

Dick Cheyne ordered the training mission on 9-11. Show me creditable evidence to over turn this fact.

Like I said, repeating it doesn't make it true. Show me credible evidence that he did order it.

I've never seen anything anywhere to dispute this not even your typical government documents.

Despite the fact that I posted a website that disputes this in the previous post. How come you can't see anything that disagrees with your world view?

Dave

[~enigma~]

I do have blond hair and blue eyes so I fit the perfect mold I guess.

The only contact I ever had with somebody who was Jewish was during my Sophomore year in College. He was a very good Astronomy teacher. He gave me an A on my paper detailing the possibilities of microscopic life on Mars, which lead up to an A in his class. I thought he was an all around good guy. Kind of quiet and to himself but he was a good teacher.

I'm far from racist. I have black and Hispanic friends. I have more respect for them than anything I've seen here. Most of them are also far more educated and certainly "Free Minded" than anything found on this forum.
Nobody mentioned you having blond hair nor did anyone accuse you of being a racist or an anti-semite. You were asked if you condoned their anti-semitism and your answer although meant not to reveal anything did reveal a ton...you are on ignore, you can figure out why.

[SpitfireIX]

Nobody mentioned you having blond hair nor did anyone accuse you of being a racist or an anti-semite. You were asked if you condoned their anti-semitism and your answer although meant not to reveal anything did reveal a ton...you are on ignore, you can figure out why.


He was accused of being a racist in the thread that spawned this one, for his comment about Arabs' being "towelheads" who are clearly too backward to have carried out the September 11 attacks without substantial assistance (presumably from elements within the US government).

[OldSchool]

Like I said, repeating it doesn't make it true. Show me credible evidence that he did order it.



Despite the fact that I posted a website that disputes this in the previous post. How come you can't see anything that disagrees with your world view?

Dave

http://www.geocities.com/kidhistory/bcr911.htm

http://911exposed.org/Stand%20Down.htm

http://physics911.net/pdf/jacobs.pdf

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a846carolinafighters

Took me all of 5 minutes to find these. There is obviously a great deal of information out there concerning this topic. I obviously didn't make it up as I was accused of earlier in this post. Whether these sites are deemed creditable or not is always open for debate. The point remains obviously there were training missions on 9-11 and it is more than suspected Dick Cheyne ordered them.

[beachnut]

http://www.geocities.com/kidhistory/bcr911.htm

http://911exposed.org/Stand%20Down.htm

http://physics911.net/pdf/jacobs.pdf

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a846carolinafighters

The point remains obviously there were training missions on 9-11 and it is more than suspected Dick Cheyne ordered them.
Everyday over the United States there are training missions going (the VP does not order them up)! Dick did not order the training missions! Dick ordered the skies to be protected, training missions were redirected.

You do not understand simple day to day operations of the military! This single post makes your lack of knowledge jump out of the monitor screaming I do not know anything about 9/11.



I flew a training mission the day after 9/11, the VP does not order them; sorry, you are wrong due to reading comprehension problems. There were few operational missions before 9/11. NORAD had some of the only operational missions flying sorties to identify planes entering the ADIZ. Funny, Dick never ordered training missions, Dick ordered the skies to be protected. Please learn more about 9/11 before making posts that are too easy to debunk.

Funny post
Dick Cheyne ordered the training mission on 9-11.
(Cheney) did not order training missions, your reading comprehension has been Cheyne.

[~enigma~]

He was accused of being a racist in the thread that spawned this one, for his comment about Arabs' being "towelheads" who are clearly too backward to have carried out the September 11 attacks without substantial assistance (presumably from elements within the US government).
My question didn't accuse him/her/it and that is what I am referring to. Now looking at his/her/it's sidestep i will gladly admit to accusing him/her/it if he/she/it is to stupid to figure out that is why he/she/it is on ignore.

[Dave Rogers]

http://www.geocities.com/kidhistory/bcr911.htm

Based on the Mike Ruppert quote that was shown in the page I referenced to be based on a misinterpretation of an otherwise irrelevant document.

http://911exposed.org/Stand%20Down.htm

This webpage doesn't mention the exercises at all.

http://physics911.net/pdf/jacobs.pdf

Based on the same Mike Ruppert quote.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a846carolinafighters

Doesn't suggest that Cheney had anything to do with the exercises.

I obviously didn't make it up as I was accused of earlier in this post. Whether these sites are deemed creditable or not is always open for debate. The point remains obviously there were training missions on 9-11 and it is more than suspected Dick Cheyne ordered them.

I didn't suggest you made it up; in fact, Mike Ruppert made it up, and you've swallowed it whole. It isn't "more than" suspected, it's suspected, and only by people who believe Mike Ruppert. As with so many pieces of conspiracy theory "evidence", it all traces back to a single source. That's simply not credible. No journalist would take it seriously.

The point remains which I made earlier, and which you've done nothing to counter, that it is very widely disputed that Cheney ordered the exercises, and your supposition that everyone believes he did order them is based purely on your own ignorance.

Dave

[defaultdotxbe]

The discussion about war being bad for economy is the funniest thing I've ever heard come from this forum.
where would the economy be if gas prices werent dso high?

followup: where would gas prices be were it not for the war(s) in the mid east?

[cloudshipsrule]

War creates nothing except contracts and jobs.

You forgot grieving widows, distrust of the government and fodder for conspiracy theorist theories on why the WTC towers were CD'd.

[cloudshipsrule]

followup: where would gas prices be were it not for the war(s) in the mid east?

Touché!

[mortimer]

OldSchool, YOU ordered the NORAD training exercises on 9/11. If you don't believe me, prove that it wasn't you.

[funk de fino]

Old School

Do not run away. Answer post 81 please.

[SpitfireIX]

I have seen and linked a document signed by such professionals asking for a new Independent investigation into 9-11.


First, I said a significant number. Every profession has at least a few crackpots and charlatans, despite the best efforts of universities, professional societies, and licensing boards to weed them out. AE911T has fewer than 100 licensed engineers (http://www.ae911truth.org/supporters.php?g=ENG) who've signed its petition; and many of those have no training or expertise in structural engineering. Further, many of the signers have made demonstrably incorrect assertions in their "Personal 9/11 Statement[s]."

So, again I ask you, specifically, why aren't all (or even any) of the tenured professors of structural engineering in America speaking out if it's so blindingly obvious that the WTC buildings couldn't have collapsed the way NIST says they did.

It was also signed by many who lost family and friends to 9-11.


And of course, the fact that they are dissatisfied with previous investigations is due to their expertise in the relevant fields, and couldn't possibly be due to the perfectly understandable human tendency to want to leave no stone unturned in the search for answers to "why did this happen to me?"

All the questions ( what ifs) you ask are good ones. As the war approaches 3 trillion dollars in government contracts, most likely more when considering classified programs, there is plenty of money to go around.


Dick Cheney took a pay cut (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/e2415.htm) of approximately $25 million a year in order to become Vice President. How much do you think he is making in "kickbacks" for his part in your purported conspiracy??

The point you make about keeping those who would decline to join such a conspiracy is a good one. That one makes the imagination run wild into the realm of murder and or accidents.


And this creates an additional issue for Conspirator One when Conspirator Zero asks him to join; namely, what will Conspirator Zero do to him if he refuses to participate? Conspirator One may well conclude that his safest course of action is to immediately turn Conspirator Zero in. And Conspirator Zero has to know this when considering whether even to approach Conspirator One. Now multiply this by everyone else who must be "invited" to participate in the conspiracy. Except as more conspirators are added, they are less likely to be as well-known to Conspirator Zero.

Whistle blowers need proof so reputation is another factor to consider.


Whistleblowers do not need proof in order to trigger an investigation. Every inspector general's office has a hotline for anonymous tips, for example. Do you honestly believe that if (for example) the Secretary of Transportation went to the Director of the FBI and said, "The President and Vice President are planning to blow up four buildings, and they want me to help them pull it off," that the Director would simply ignore the information?? Frankly, you're simply attempting to paper over one of the many enormous holes in your conspiracy theory.

I'm not holding my breath, but I hope there is a Bush/Cheyne Trial of some sort. The Telecom situation could lead to such a trial. If there were laws broken concerning wire tapping maybe a trial would reveal more than what either bargained for. I don't think Hillary Clinton would allow such an investigation/trial although Obama may.


No one's going to prosecute Bush when the legality and constitutionality of his actions are at worst debatable. Some Democrats attempted to make political hay (with limited success) out of the issue, but if any significant number of Representatives had felt that Bush had truly broken the law, there would have been a serious movement for impeachment.

Only time will tell and I would enjoy a good public execution.


:troll

[bynmdsue]

The discussion about war being bad for economy is the funniest thing I've ever heard come from this forum. War creates nothing except contracts and jobs. The cost is taken from tax dollars which already were payed.


Aren't we borrowing money from the Chinese to pay for the war?

[Confuseling]

I think the Japanese significantly as well.

ETA: In fact wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt) claims that Japan and China together hold about 47% of Americas debt. This is not all government / central bank held, featuring private interests as well.

That’s leaves a little over $4 trillion in public hands. The biggest chunk (about 25 percent of the $8.5 trillion total) is held by foreign governments. Japan tops the list (with $644 billion), followed by China ($350 billion), United Kingdom ($239 billion) and oil exporting countries ($100 billion).

Other big holders of Treasury debt include state and local governments ($467 billion); individual investors, including brokers ($423 billion); public and private pension funds (319 billion); mutual funds ($243 billion); holders of US savings bonds ($206 billion); insurance companies ($166 billion) and banks and credit unions ($117 billion.)

from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17424874/

[Travis]

Now now. We all know that it is a Conspiracy Theorist Mantra that "evil" defense contractors in deep underground bunkers, surrounded by hordes of armed minions, make oodles of money from war and none during times of peace.

By the way OldSchool I think you need to find out how many fighter planes were defending the American skies on 9-11 and then compare that to how many were defending American air space on January 19, 2001.

[OldSchool]

Everyday over the United States there are training missions going (the VP does not order them up)! Dick did not order the training missions! Dick ordered the skies to be protected, training missions were redirected.

You do not understand simple day to day operations of the military! This single post makes your lack of knowledge jump out of the monitor screaming I do not know anything about 9/11.



I flew a training mission the day after 9/11, the VP does not order them; sorry, you are wrong due to reading comprehension problems. There were few operational missions before 9/11. NORAD had some of the only operational missions flying sorties to identify planes entering the ADIZ. Funny, Dick never ordered training missions, Dick ordered the skies to be protected. Please learn more about 9/11 before making posts that are too easy to debunk.

Funny post

(Cheney) did not order training missions, your reading comprehension has been Cheyne.

How would you know if the VP ordered it or not "Chain of Command"? It isn't standard policy for a VP to order such a training mission, which is the point. It wasn't just any training mission it was the largest training mission in the history of NORAD. "According to numerous sources" Dick Cheney did order the training missions on the day of 9-11. My sources aren't corrupt where as your sources are military which are the least creditable to those who have taken off there "blinders". Beechnut a very large portion of the common soldier doesn't share you viewpoint. I am sorry you have accepted your training "brainwashing" in such a complete and life consuming manner . The subtleties of life are sometimes the most difficult to see. I think you mean well and accept your orders without a 2nd thought, which makes you the ideal soldier.

I had a very pleasant moment today in class. I was sitting in the computer lab working on a Server 2003 project. My computer math teacher and Lab Technician both began a conversation about 9-11. To my surprise both were very skeptical of 9-11. Both thought, as I do, that it would be impossible for people from a 3rd world nation to complete such an extensive mission on a single day. Its a warm feeling when both a Mathematician and a Computer Scientist start up a random conversation about 9-11 conspiracy.

[OldSchool]

Now now. We all know that it is a Conspiracy Theorist Mantra that "evil" defense contractors in deep underground bunkers, surrounded by hordes of armed minions, make oodles of money from war and none during times of peace.

By the way OldSchool I think you need to find out how many fighter planes were defending the American skies on 9-11 and then compare that to how many were defending American air space on January 19, 2001.

There was one active set of jet fighters available on 9-11 which caught the plane in Pennsylvania, supposedly headed for the White House.

[OldSchool]

Aren't we borrowing money from the Chinese to pay for the war?

Were borrowing money from the Chinese to pay for the $600 tax credit too. This doesn't effect the companies who have received contracts. It doesn't decrease the jobs created by those contracts. Longterm it can cause a great deal of problems. Short term only positives for the working class.

[stateofgrace]

How would you know if the VP ordered it or not "Chain of Command"? It isn't standard policy for a VP to order such a training mission, which is the point. It wasn't just any training mission it was the largest training mission in the history of NORAD. "According to numerous sources" Dick Cheney did order the training missions on the day of 9-11. My sources aren't corrupt where as your sources are military which are the least creditable to those who have taken off there "blinders". Beechnut a very large portion of the common soldier doesn't share you viewpoint. I am sorry you have accepted your training "brainwashing" in such a complete and life consuming manner . The subtleties of life are sometimes the most difficult to see. I think you mean well and accept your orders without a 2nd thought, which makes you the ideal soldier.

I had a very pleasant moment today in class. I was sitting in the computer lab working on a Server 2003 project. My computer math teacher and Lab Technician both began a conversation about 9-11. To my surprise both were very skeptical of 9-11. Both thought, as I do, that it would be impossible for people from a 3rd world nation to complete such an extensive mission on a single day. Its a warm feeling when both a Mathematician and a Computer Scientist start up a random conversation about 9-11 conspiracy.

And why would that be OS?

[DGM]

How would you know if the VP ordered it or not "Chain of Command"? It isn't standard policy for a VP to order such a training mission, which is the point. It wasn't just any training mission it was the largest training mission in the history of NORAD. "According to numerous sources" Dick Cheney did order the training missions on the day of 9-11. My sources aren't corrupt where as your sources are military which are the least creditable to those who have taken off there "blinders". Beechnut a very large portion of the common soldier doesn't share you viewpoint. I am sorry you have accepted your training "brainwashing" in such a complete and life consuming manner . The subtleties of life are sometimes the most difficult to see. I think you mean well and accept your orders without a 2nd thought, which makes you the ideal soldier.

I had a very pleasant moment today in class. I was sitting in the computer lab working on a Server 2003 project. My computer math teacher and Lab Technician both began a conversation about 9-11. To my surprise both were very skeptical of 9-11. Both thought, as I do, that it would be impossible for people from a 3rd world nation to complete such an extensive mission on a single day. Its a warm feeling when both a Mathematician and a Computer Scientist start up a random conversation about 9-11 conspiracy.
What "third world nation" are you talking about? Don't these people you mentioned have a clue about 9/11?

[DGM]

OldSchool:
On second thought I don't want to know. After your "towel head" remark the other day it's best I just put you on ignore. I have no tolerance for bigots now a days.

[Pardalis]

Old School probably never heard of Saudi Arabia, and the Hamburg cell.

[defaultdotxbe]

Old School probably never heard of Saudi Arabia, and the Hamburg cell.
or he thinks any country not the US or europe is "third world"

[stateofgrace]

Old School probably never heard of Saudi Arabia, and the Hamburg cell.

I'm actually curious to see OS's spin on people from third world countries in general.

Well OS are people from third world countries all of a sudden inferior to your good self?

Maybe you feel they are less educated and unable to understand world affairs, at the same level you do?

Please enlighten me as to why you decided to drop in the line about people from third world countries.

[SpitfireIX]

Please enlighten me as to why you decided to drop in the line about people from third world countries.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1706047dfe38b9225d.jpg

[Travis]

There was one active set of jet fighters available on 9-11 which caught the plane in Pennsylvania, supposedly headed for the White House.

Okay, disregarding the fact that you mistakenly believe fighters "caught" United 93 I'd like you explain if the number of fighters on duty on 9-11 was more or less than in the months preceding it.

*hint Gumboot has written many things that give away the answer*