Nirvana

[idunno]

unlike some skeptics think nirvana is not a state of nothingness but a feeling of wholeness and union with the universe and nature. You may have had glimpses of it when you witness an overpowring scenery, where the silence isso deep you can hear your breath.
The thing is some people seem to be able to feel it all time.
I wonder if any of these people has ever had his brain tested on such a state of mind?

[Lothian]

unlike some skeptics think nirvana is not a state of nothingness but a feeling of wholeness and union with the universe and nature. You may have had glimpses of it when you witness an overpowring scenery, where the silence isso deep you can hear your breath.
The thing is some people seem to be able to feel it all time.
I wonder if any of these people has ever had his brain tested on such a state of mind?You mean stoned ?

[idunno]

You mean stoned ?

yes but without the grass

[Francesca R]

[ . . . ] a feeling of wholeness and union with the universe and nature [ . . . ]

We wanna go somewhere else. We're not threatened by people anymore. All our insecurities have evaporated. We're in the clouds now. We're wide open. We're spacemen orbiting the earth. The world looks beautiful from here, man. We're nympholeptics, desiring for the unobtainable. We risk sanity for moments of temporary enlightenment. So many ideas. So little memory. The last thought killed by anticipation of the next. We embrace an overwhelming feeling of love. We flow in unison. We're together. I wish this was real. We want a universal level of togetherness, where we're comfortable with everyone. We're in rhythm. Part of a movement. A movement to escape. We wave goodbye. Ultimately, we just want to be happy. Heh, yeah, hang on, what the **** was I just talking about?

source (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0188674/quotes)

[idunno]

source (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0188674/quotes)

F:Drancesca the perv in the corner???

[idunno]

what i said is true,why do you joke when youcant answer,skeptics??

[Complexity]

It is a feeling. Just a feeling.

Deal with it.

[KingMerv00]

what i said is true,why do you joke when youcant answer,skeptics??

Answer what? Did you have a question in the OP? (The brain test sentence was actually a statement.)

You gave an opinion. I agree...that you have that opinion.

[KingMerv00]

It is a feeling. Just a feeling.


And a band.

[idunno]

>
> I am referring to 8th (last) stage, in Patanjali's Ashtang yoga:
> `samadhi' to `nirvana'.
>
> Do you agree with the two-fold data related to `samadhi' state of
brain: (i) meditator feels `oneness' with environment, or (ii) the
matter, which is a structure that crystallizes within mind, isappears
for meditator>.... Do you agree with my explanation given in post
4449?

Do not post copyright material. Do not post personal information.

[Lothian]

Have you always had difficulty communicating ?

[idunno]

It is a feeling. Just a feeling.

Deal with it.
a feeling? In the brain?? sure...:jaw-dropp

[fuelair]

Nirvana was a kind of ok band IIRC. And..............?

[idunno]

Nirvana was a kind of ok band IIRC. And..............?

keep to the point

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

The thing is some people seem to be able to feel it all time. I wonder if any of these people has ever had his brain tested on such a state of mind?

Do you expect to find something different in such brains? I would say that yes, but is different exactly in the same way that dream states are different, or waking states.

Are you working your path to reach such state?

OH, btw, the quotes you put are interesting ones, but will never be understood by most of the JREF members.

[idunno]

[quote=Bodhi Dharma Zen;3539292]Do you expect to find something different in such brains? I would say that yes, but is different exactly in the same way that dream states are different, or waking states.

Are you working your path to reach such state?

no but the idea of becoming an old men without the belief in something beyond death is a bit scary. When i look at the old farts around i dont envy them.So it is important to have peace of mind when we get old

[schlitt]

This feeling is often caused by a temporal lobe seizure.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raT2PrTQqS0
(V S Ramachandran is one of the worlds leading neurologists)

[Complexity]

[quote=Bodhi Dharma Zen;3539292]Do you expect to find something different in such brains? I would say that yes, but is different exactly in the same way that dream states are different, or waking states.

Are you working your path to reach such state?

no but the idea of becoming an old men without the belief in something beyond death is a bit scary. When i look at the old farts around i dont envy them.So it is important to have peace of mind when we get old


Not all of us are scared.

Believing in something that isn't true wouldn't give me peace of mind.

[fuelair]

keep to the point
I really don't take orders well. Especially incompetant ones.:)

[idunno]

[quote=idunno;3539461]


Not all of us are scared.

Believing in something that isn't true wouldn't give me peace of mind.

you oughta change your avatar. i hate him:mad:

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

This feeling is often causes by a temporal lobe seizure.

Well, I dissent. It is not a religious experience at all. It can be simply called an "aperspectival" experience, but I like it when some ancient masters tell that it is also ineffable.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

no but the idea of becoming an old men without the belief in something beyond death is a bit scary. When i look at the old farts around i dont envy them.So it is important to have peace of mind when we get old

Why not having peace of mind now? Reaching Nirvana is reaching a state in which you see the world as it is. You stop thinking about it, or believing it is this or that, you simply see it, become one with it.

[Complexity]

[quote=Complexity;3539481]

you oughta change your avatar. i hate him:mad:

Bago? Is that you?

Silly twit.

[idunno]

[quote=idunno;3539619]

Bago? Is that you?

Silly twit.

redneck from the prairie

[Dancing David]

[quote=Complexity;3539681]

redneck from the prairie


Hey watch it dude, some of us have rednecks and live on the prairie.

Nibbanna means extinguishment, as in extinguishment of cling to the notion of the self, clinging to pleasure and avoidance of displeasure.

[KingMerv00]

a feeling? In the brain?? sure...:jaw-dropp

what he said is true,why do you joke when youcant answer,believer??

(sic...very very sic)

[Apathia]

It is a feeling. Just a feeling.

Deal with it.

"Feelings! Woo, woo, woo, feelings!"

But it is a desirable altaration of the usual state of consciousness even if Gado-gado has made a thread about it.

[billydkid]

>
> I am referring to 8th (last) stage, in Patanjali's Ashtang yoga:
> `samadhi' to `nirvana'.
>
> Do you agree with the two-fold data related to `samadhi' state of
brain: (i) meditator feels `oneness' with environment, or (ii) the
matter, which is a structure that crystallizes within mind, isappears
for meditator>.... Do you agree with my explanation given in post
4449?In the immortal words of my son at 5 years old - "Whever".

[KingMerv00]

>
> I am referring to 8th (last) stage, in Patanjali's Ashtang yoga:
> `samadhi' to `nirvana'.
>
> Do you agree with the two-fold data related to `samadhi' state of
brain: (i) meditator feels `oneness' with environment, or (ii) the
matter, which is a structure that crystallizes within mind, isappears
for meditator>.... Do you agree with my explanation given in post
4449?

Angels on a pin.

I love this stuff. It is like two nerds arguing over how Superman's powers REALLY work.

(It isn't typical super strength...it is telekinesis but it is limited to things he touches.)

[Moochie]

The nearest I've come to what you described, idunno, was back in the late 60s when I ingested some LSD. I was with a party of friends and we dropped the drug on a balmy summer night at midnight, and heard Hendrix's Electric Ladyland the way it's supposed to be heard. :)

It was all quite lovely and certainly interesting, but it does end and the aftermath often is a sense of loss and sadness that the world isn't what one saw through the multihued prism of the drug.

M.

[Radrook]

unlike some skeptics think nirvana is not a state of nothingness but a feeling of wholeness and union with the universe and nature. You may have had glimpses of it when you witness an overpowring scenery, where the silence isso deep you can hear your breath. The thing is some people seem to be able to feel it all time.
I wonder if any of these people has ever had his brain tested on such a state of mind?

Here is an informative article on the subject:

Brain Wave Testing Under Meditation
http://www.sol.com.au/kor/21_02.htm

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Angels on a pin.

I love this stuff. It is like two nerds arguing over how Superman's powers REALLY work.

(It isn't typical super strength...it is telekinesis but it is limited to things he touches.)

:rolleyes: Yet, it is not. There are levels of subjective experience, and some cultures have spent thousand of years exploring them. Such levels are REAL, not imaginary.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Nibbanna means extinguishment, as in extinguishment of cling to the notion of the self, clinging to pleasure and avoidance of displeasure.

Pleasure and displeasure have nothing to do with it, but the first part is correct. It is the extinguishment of everything you previously knew, of everything you previously was.

[KingMerv00]

:rolleyes: Yet, it is not. There are levels of subjective experience, and some cultures have spent thousand of years exploring them. Such levels are REAL, not imaginary.

I believe that those subjective experiences exist and that they take practice to obtain. Unfortunately, some people aren't content to just meditate and enjoy. They go out and make up imaginary rules about levels, flows, stages, crystalization, etc. idunno is trying to claim to know the "true" definition of nirvana.

They are trying to turn a meditation-induced, all-natural acid trip into Dungeons and Dragons. There is nothing to "know" or "understand" about those feelings of oneness. In the same vein, there is nothing to "know" or "understand" about the subjective feeling of stubbing a toe.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I believe that those subjective experiences exist and that they take practice to obtain. Unfortunately, some people aren't content to just meditate and enjoy. They go out and make up imaginary rules about levels, flows, stages, crystalization, etc. idunno is trying to claim to know the "true" definition of nirvana.

They are trying to turn a meditation-induced, all-natural acid trip into Dungeons and Dragons. There is nothing to "know" or "understand" about those feelings of oneness. In the same vein, there is nothing to "know" or "understand" about the subjective feeling of stubbing a toe.

You have a point in the sense that, yes, some people will see every kind of magic and supernatural powers associated with meditative states. But you are utterly wrong in stating that one thing is consequence of the other.

Of course the subjective experiences exists, they are as real as any rock of your choice, the levels of consciousness are completely real, you might be unaware of this because it is not something you have tried, but if you got the time (and the interest) you could appreciate them.

Where does the woo starts depends on the individual. I have known teachers that instruct students to stay "in the real world" so to speak. There is a saying, "if you see the Buddha kill it" and it is applied to students that start to believe they are talking with divine beings or traveling to time and such nonsense.

You can understand A LOT about "yourself" and "the world" if you simply detach yourself from the woo and SEE (there is a CLEAR difference between seeing and believing).

[KingMerv00]

Of course the subjective experiences exists, they are as real as any rock of your choice, the levels of consciousness are completely real, you might be unaware of this because it is not something you have tried, but if you got the time (and the interest) you could appreciate them.

May I ask what those levels are?

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

May I ask what those levels are?

Well of course, there is the waking state, the dream state, there are religious trances (altered states caused by dancing for hours at monotonic rhythms). Talking about medidative states, it is a shame that the quote was cut out from the thread, because apparently a meditation teacher was explaining a couple of them.

Without entering in Buddhist terminology, there are various concrete states, going from experiencing the ego as a separate from the environment, to different stages in which the boundaries seems more and more transparent.

You can actually describe where are you (when you left woo away) and a good teacher will tell you what is the next step.

I remember a good article regarding this on the Encyclopedia Britannica, and of course there are lots of info on the Internet. I can point you to them if you are interested.

For a brief resume, clearly understandable with common words, you can refer to this (there are lots of translations, this one is not the better but it is the first I found): http://www.shotokai.cl/otras_artes/05_em_.html

I have been in state 8 myself, and can attest that the experience is absolutely real. Please notice that I do not qualify it as being "purer" or "more real" or "transcending mundane reality". It is a mental state (a peculiar and very interesting one), and just that.

You do not gain "superpowers" you cannot travel in time, nor talk with dead people nor gain any deeper knowledge regarding how to control elemental forces :p You are just able to experience reality from a completely different point of view.

[KingMerv00]

BDZ,

My objections were really aimed at idunno because of his smug attitude in post #6. If you or anyone can meditate and have a pleasurable experience, that's great. On the other hand, I am annoyed by the woo that is often gets attached. For example, the word "level" suggests that certain states are objectively "higher". More pleasurable maybe, but "higher"?

BTW, the link you posted mentions energy that is both physical and spiritual. From your posts, I gather that this isn't your POV but it is worth a mention since it illustrates my point.

For what it is worth, I've had my own "transcendent" experience in a dream once where I "felt oneness with the universe". Impossible to describe, but it would be something I would like to replicate.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

My objections were really aimed at idunno because of his smug attitude in post #6. If you or anyone can meditate and have a pleasurable experience, that's great. On the other hand, I am annoyed by the woo that is often gets attached. For example, the word "level" suggests that certain states are objectively "higher". More pleasurable maybe, but "higher"?

I had the impression that you were trashing their opinions "how superman really works". I agree with you in all the woo that its (way to) often attached. And yes, for people who are seeking "spirituality" as a way to reach "a higher level of existence" well, things are not quite like that, at all.

A common misconception is that those "higher" states are closer to the divinity (if the individual believes in god) or are somehow transcendental "higher" (as opposed to mundane or "low"), but of course thats silly. Every mental state is a mental state. No one can get "enlightened" because we have been always "THAT", whether we realize it or not.

BTW, the link you posted mentions energy that is both physical and spiritual. From your posts, I gather that this isn't your POV but it is worth a mention since it illustrates my point.

Yep, as I told you, it is a very bad translation. This one is better: http://www.deeshan.com/zen.htm

My take on "spiritual" things are related to a POV in which you see the common world as transcendental (no souls, no immaterial beings, no mystical powers). There are countless Zen stories about this. For example, an illuminated master will say something like "Oh wonderful thing, I can get water out of the well" and this simple fact is as precious as precious can be.

For what it is worth, I've had my own "transcendent" experience in a dream once where I "felt oneness with the universe". Impossible to describe, but it would be something I would like to replicate.

:) I know what you mean. Dreams are an interesting state of consciousness. Well, you can replicate that feeling in your waking life, with luck it will give it a sense of "sacred" and you will be able to experience life in a deeper way, leaving absurd believes behind and focusing on the fact that it is somehow a privilege to be here.