Help! My family was convinced at a healing! Now what do I do?

[Dilettante]

I joined this forum in order to ask this question. I am really, really hoping to hear from some experienced people on this.

How do you investigate a faith healer? (Below I am just going to use the words "healer" and "healing" to refer to the guy and his events.)

Someone in my parents' church went to a healing about a year ago, and says his condition has improved dramatically. My dad was rather skeptical, but agreed to observe the healer the next time that he came around.

(My father is also an MD. That seems relevant somehow. Read on.)

The healer was back last week. My parents both went and watched. He seems to be the "sincere" type, as opposed to a deliberate fraud like Popoff. He comes from a Pentecostal background, so apparently he never really questioned that people could do this.

He gave a talk ahead of time, and says about 10% of his "healees" were fully cured, 40% somewhat cured, 50% not at all. Then he asked

"Is there anyone here who would know right away if they were helped?"

A few people raised their hands. My dad also delicately raised his hand. He's had severe shoulder pain, and limited movement, for about a year.
They asked him to come up, the healer put his hands on him, and everybody prayed.

I have no idea what actually happened inside my dad's shoulder, if anything. Now he can move it pretty freely--not 100%, but pretty close, and dramatically better than two weeks ago. (For example, he couldn't put T-shirts on for a long time. Now he can.)
He was scheduled for an operation a few days ago. So he went to see the orthopedist a little bit earlier and showed him his improvement. They agreed to put off the operation unless he relapses.

Make no mistake, I am very very glad that his shoulder's improved.
But now I feel like I can look forward to arguing with my parents about this for the rest of our lives. I will be under pressure to go to healings and try to offer a "better" explanation than "the power of the Holy Spirit" for whatever is happening.
(I'd like to say that he gave my father a secret cortisone injection :) but that doesn't fit the description that I've heard.)

The healer is associated with Hawaiian Island Ministries. Has anyone run into this guy before? Seen their show?

What am I supposed to make of all this?
How am I supposed to avoid 20 years of arguing over an event that I didn't see and don't have an explanation for?

Thanks in advance for any advice or information.

[Pyrrho]

Placebo effect. An MD ought to know about that.

[Brown]

Sounds like the power of suggestion at work.

I wish I could find a reference for this, but I met an MD who once studied this sort of thing in connection with "whiplash" injuries. He suggested to his patients that they would fully recover within six weeks, and nearly all of them did. The typical time for a patient to feel "back to normal" was about six weeks.

When he suggested to his patients that they would fully recover within four weeks, the typical time for a patient to feel "back to normal" dropped to about four weeks, even though the treatment regimen was the same.

The doctor also found that patients that took the longest to recover (usually one or two years) were those who were involved in lawsuits against drivers who allegedly caused the whiplash. These patients univerally recovered from their injuries within days of the lawsuit being settled or otherwise brought to a conclusion.

The point is not that whiplash is an illusory injury (it isn't). Rather, the point is that suggestion can have a profound effect upon subjective pain assessment, and that the suggestion does not need to be religiously based.

[Dilettante]

(Pyrrho)Placebo effect. An MD ought to know about that.
Are you saying this from experience, or just guessing?
Obviously he is aware of the placebo effect in general.

The placebo effect works better for some things than others. I don't think it usually works this quickly or this long. Obviously I am interested in other peoples' experience.

That doesn't mean I think he was healed by faith or spirits either.
If I had to make a guess, I'd wonder about (a) manual manipulation of the shoulder, (b) if you can get somone to move their shoulder around a bit (and this DOES rely on placebo to avoid the pain) then they might be able to clear an obstruction, break a cyst, etc. (I don't know the anatomy well enough.)

[Ratman_tf]

This is hard. I'm assuming that your father couldn't move his shoulder because of the pain, in which case, it's VERY subjective. Different people have different pain thresholds and it can be affected by the power of suggestion.

At this point, there's probably nothing you could say or do to get him to see other possibilities. I wouldn't push the subject, but stand firm on your skepticism of the faith healer.

[Dilettante]

(Brown)
He suggested to his patients that they would fully recover within six weeks, and nearly all of them did. The typical time for a patient to feel "back to normal" was about six weeks.

When he suggested to his patients that they would fully recover within four weeks, the typical time for a patient to feel "back to normal" dropped to about four weeks, even though the treatment regimen was the same.

I don't know enough about whiplash to say if this is comparable or not. But it is certainly interesting.

Did that doctor really think it's just a subjective difference in registering pain? Or was he saying that the patients' physical condition was better?
Someone who expects to be better in four weeks may resume normal activity sooner, which is often helpful.
I also notice that he didn't tell patients they'd be better in 3 days. :) (That would be an interesting experiment!)

[Dilettante]

Originally posted by Ratman_tf
This is hard. I'm assuming that your father couldn't move his shoulder because of the pain, in which case, it's VERY subjective. Different people have different pain thresholds and it can be affected by the power of suggestion.

The problem was/is a shoulder impingement. I don't know how much is mechanical and how much is the nerve.

I have also had impingements, and the nature of the pain isn't something that would go away just by suggestion.
Sometimes they get better on their own--and this one should have already--but I don't think they "suddenly" get better.

(I have a different guess about the previous "healee". In that case I think the guy's condition had slowly improved, but he didn't know it yet because he had never been "normal" before.)

If I ever see the "healer" in action, what should I pay attention to?

[Brown]

Originally posted by Dilettante
Did that doctor really think it's just a subjective difference in registering pain? Or was he saying that the patients' physical condition was better? If I remember correctly, the severity of whiplash is almost entirely a matter of subjective evaluation by the patient. The patient tells the doctor about the level of pain. The patient shows the doctor the range of motion. What the patient tells the doctor about the whiplash is all the doctor has to go on. As far as the doctor can tell, if the patient feels that he is better, then his physical condition really is better.

[Dilettante]

Originally posted by Brown
The patient shows the doctor the range of motion.

Would there be a danger to the patient if the doctor tried moving their neck?

When I was 19 I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. To test my range of motion the doctors would gently move my wrists and elbows and stop them when it hurt. They also squeezed my knuckles themselves (gently--well, in most cases) to figure out which ones were inflamed.

That seems more reliable, because the doctor should at least provide a consistent level of force from patient to patient. And they won't stop simply because they're afraid of pain. (That's not always a good thing. :eek: )

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Dilettante

How do you investigate a faith healer?


I don't see that there is much nitty gritty to investigate. They claim to get healing powers from their god. One would have to locate a person's medical records and rule out everything else but god, which they've hopefully already proved exists. I think a healing rate of 10% is probably much worse than the natural healing rates of a lot of conditions/diseases.

It would probably be interesting to investigate healers' backgrounds- where they started, their degrees, if they've been in trouble before, how wealthy they are, the methods they use, are they using any slight of hand/mind? etc.


Someone in my parents' church went to a healing about a year ago, and says his condition has improved dramatically.


"says" his condition improved? Did it really? Was improvement because of the healing, or simply natural variation in symptoms? Was he well before the healing and just forgot? Was he also taking medicine in conjunction with the healing? Is there a copy of his medical records?


I have no idea what actually happened inside my dad's shoulder, if anything. Now he can move it pretty freely--not 100%, but pretty close, and dramatically better than two weeks ago.


The problem is, and I am glad your dad got better, is that this is testimony. We don't have any objective records and measurements from a controlled setting to compare before and after the event to help identify the cause and measure the effect of the healing. For example, your dad got better after the healing... I say he got better from the vibrations from the car ride on the way home. How do we know which one of us is correct?

[Dilettante]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
your dad got better after the healing... I say he got better from the vibrations from the car ride on the way home. How do we know which one of us is correct? [/B]

I like the vibrations theory, and I want a big grant to study it right now!

[Kevin_Lowe]

Ask them why God never heals missing limbs, organs etc.

Why should the people with unverifiable, pain-only type afflictions get all the lovin' from the man upstairs? Surely there are some deserving souls missing some fingers or toes...

[Dilettante]

Kevin,

none of the conditions we're talking about -- whiplash, impingement, or the original guy's leg problems -- are truly unverifiable, nor are they pain only. Since I've had an impinged shoulder myself, I know more about it: it has to do with pressure on a nerve in the shoulder. (It literally is an "impingement", and I think some other stuff is usually scrunched too. A lot goes on in a shoulder.)

They do operations for impingement. The surgeon goes in, moves something around, and afterwards it's better. Do you think the surgeon can't tell an impinged shoulder from a healthy one?

But they don't like to do surgery just to verify that someone's gotten better. :)

The point about the missing limbs is taken. Obviously there are many conditions that even God (or at least the Hawaiian Island Ministries) can't cure. ;)
It may be possible for ordinary mortals to regrow body parts within our lifetimes. People are learning more about the genetic differences that allow amphibians to regenerate limbs. Part of it has to do with our sophisticated immune system, which might be temporarily modified.

[arcticpenguin]

I would say just wait it out. The impending operation gave your father motivation to want his shoulder to feel healed. Knowing about the placebo effect does not gurantee immunity from it. This is certainly not a life-threatening condition, so if he puts surgery off until relapse, nothing lost. If, as we all assume, the faith healer is ineffective, he wil relapse.

The ones I worry about are those who will suffer big time from postponing real medical treatment, such as cancer patients.

[Skeptical Greg]

See if the ' healer ' will accompany you to a childrens hospital.. Preferably one with a cancer unit or a burn ward..

If there is not one close by, I will be happy to chip in for a plane ticket, providing some conditions are met, which would include media coverage..


Let me know how this works out..

[Starrman]

He gave a talk ahead of time, and says about 10% of his "healees" were fully cured, 40% somewhat cured, 50% not at all.

Isn't this enough for any rational person to conclude that nothing miraculous is going on?

[thaiboxerken]

I'd invite the healer to test his faith. It says in the christian bible that true christians can drink poison and not be harmed.

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by Brown
Sounds like the power of suggestion at work.

I wish I could find a reference for this, but I met an MD who once studied this sort of thing in connection with "whiplash" injuries. He suggested to his patients that they would fully recover within six weeks, and nearly all of them did. The typical time for a patient to feel "back to normal" was about six weeks.

When he suggested to his patients that they would fully recover within four weeks, the typical time for a patient to feel "back to normal" dropped to about four weeks, even though the treatment regimen was the same.

The doctor also found that patients that took the longest to recover (usually one or two years) were those who were involved in lawsuits against drivers who allegedly caused the whiplash. These patients univerally recovered from their injuries within days of the lawsuit being settled or otherwise brought to a conclusion.

The point is not that whiplash is an illusory injury (it isn't). Rather, the point is that suggestion can have a profound effect upon subjective pain assessment, and that the suggestion does not need to be religiously based.


Hi Brown
This sounds like work done by Wilbert Fordyce in Seattle. It is highly controversial with many critics, chief among them probably Harold Merskey. I have to run to a meeting but I'll find some links about this a bit later for you.

As for the healing, placebo effects for painful conditions can certainly last this long. Usually, they fizzle out within 6 months. I guess it is a test of time. If god provided the healing, it'll last. Although it lasting does not necessarily mean it was provided by god.

More later. Must run.

[wayrad]

Was his impingement due to adhesive capsulitis? That gets better by itself, although often there is some permanent limitation of mobility. (IANAD, but I've had it. Both shoulders.)

[Dilettante]

Who on the forum--or at JREF--has a lot of experience with watching these guys?

[Torlack]

Until you have a kidney stone or give birth, all other pain is subjective.

:) :( :o :mad: :mad: :mad: :eek: :confused: :D

[Ratman_tf]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
I'd invite the healer to test his faith. It says in the christian bible that true christians can drink poison and not be harmed.

It also says in the bible to not test God.

[Dilettante]

Originally posted by Torlack
Until you have a kidney stone or give birth, all other pain is subjective.

[multiple not-so-smileys]

Are you going through one or the other right now? :eek: :rub:

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Ratman_tf


It also says in the bible to not test God.


I'ts a good thing they included that too ..


It's a quick ' out ' for anyone who is asked to demonstrate the power of prayer, etc..

[Brown]

Originally posted by Ratman_tf
It also says in the bible to not test God. And yet, on the other hand, the Bible also seems to include stories and advice that advocate exactly that.

1 Kings 18 describes the "Contest on Mount Carmel," in which God was tested to prove his existence and his superiority to Baal. Why do the religious folks not want to repeat this test today?

There are repeated promises in the Bible supposedly from Jesus himself (e.g., John 14:13-14) that WHATEVER you ask of God in Jesus's name, God will do. That's certainly a testable proposition (and in his novel "Contact," Carl Sagan proposes a simple test of the proposition).

[c0rbin]

Cut off your finger and ask them to pray it back onto your hand!

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Ratman_tf


It also says in the bible to not test God.

It's not testing "God" but his followers. A true christian, according to Jebus, can drink poison without harm.

[Ratman_tf]

Yea. It says lots of things in the bible.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Ratman_tf
Yea. It says lots of things in the bible.

Yes, but the superpower of faith healing comes within the same paragraph. Jesus states that they can drink poison, heal with touch and recieve snake bits with no ill effect. Since this guy claims he can heal based on that, he should have the other 2 superpowers as well, right?

[Brown]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Yes, but the superpower of faith healing comes within the same paragraph. Jesus states that they can drink poison, heal with touch and recieve snake bits with no ill effect. Since this guy claims he can heal based on that, he should have the other 2 superpowers as well, right? Mark 16:17-18, if anyone's interested.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
I would say just wait it out. The impending operation gave your father motivation to want his shoulder to feel healed. Knowing about the placebo effect does not gurantee immunity from it. This is certainly not a life-threatening condition, so if he puts surgery off until relapse, nothing lost. If, as we all assume, the faith healer is ineffective, he wil relapse.

I don't agree that he must relapse. Regaining range of motion may permanently alter whatever the original cause of pain was.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Dilettante
"Is there anyone here who would know right away if they were helped?"

A few people raised their hands. My dad also delicately raised his hand. He's had severe shoulder pain, and limited movement, for about a year.
They asked him to come up, the healer put his hands on him, and everybody prayed.

I have no idea what actually happened inside my dad's shoulder, if anything. Now he can move it pretty freely--not 100%, but pretty close, and dramatically better than two weeks ago. (For example, he couldn't put T-shirts on for a long time. Now he can.)
He was scheduled for an operation a few days ago. So he went to see the orthopedist a little bit earlier and showed him his improvement. They agreed to put off the operation unless he relapses.


If there was an organic need for surgery, would his doctor have put things off?


Make no mistake, I am very very glad that his shoulder's improved.
But now I feel like I can look forward to arguing with my parents about this for the rest of our lives. I will be under pressure to go to healings and try to offer a "better" explanation than "the power of the Holy Spirit" for whatever is happening.
(I'd like to say that he gave my father a secret cortisone injection :) but that doesn't fit the description that I've heard.)
[QUOTE][B]

Why do you need a physical explanation, when a psychological explanation will do? <...mumble something to myself about parsimony...>

[QUOTE][B]
The healer is associated with Hawaiian Island Ministries. Has anyone run into this guy before? Seen their show?

What am I supposed to make of all this?
How am I supposed to avoid 20 years of arguing over an event that I didn't see and don't have an explanation for?

Thanks in advance for any advice or information.

Is avoiding an argument really the most important thing here? Your father feels better -- that is a fact. Your father's range of motion in his shoulder is better -- another fact. Your father's doctor sees no organic necessity for operation now, which tells me that operation was (likely) only indicated because of the pain and not because of the current organic state of the shoulder.

Ultimately, we cannot know why he feels better. Even surgery may not have helped and could possibly have worsened the condition, correct?

So why must you take materialism literally? Pain is subjective, not in the matter of the body part from which the pains seems to originate.

The fact that your father feels better IS a cure of the pain in his shoulder. Who knows how long it will last, it may be a permanent cure, and maybe another session with the "faith healer" every few months will keep the pain away. Would that really be worse than his undergoing surgery and/or his taking pain killers?

Now, if the doctors find an organic problem in the shoulder -- such as cancer or ankylosis -- then surgery might be indicated even though the pain has already been taken care of. But you haven't provided enough information to know if that's the case or not.

I suggest you look into the work of Moshe Feldenkrais.

[athon]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


Yes, but the superpower of faith healing comes within the same paragraph. Jesus states that they can drink poison, heal with touch and recieve snake bits with no ill effect. Since this guy claims he can heal based on that, he should have the other 2 superpowers as well, right?

Isn't there some group in southern US that drinks rattle-snake venom because of this? Of course, the venom is protein based, most of which is easily broken down in the stomach's HCl.

Athon

[athon]

Originally posted by Suggestologist


Is avoiding an argument really the most important thing here? Your father feels better -- that is a fact. Your father's range of motion in his shoulder is better -- another fact. Your father's doctor sees no organic necessity for operation now, which tells me that operation was (likely) only indicated because of the pain and not because of the current organic state of the shoulder.[/B]

I don't think this is the issue. The problem lies in the fact that somebody used dubious means to 'heal' the shoulder, establishing a precedent whereby those same means could be argued to be used for a potential future ailment, one that is not as straight forward as 'pain'.

Imagine a future scenario where this man again feels pain, only this time in the abdomen. He sees the faith healer, who waves his hands and whatever, and the pain subsides a little due to simple expectation (as you said, pain is subjective. It is indeed a manifestation of a physical phenomena, but how it is negotiated by our nervous system relies on perception). This goes on another two times, and three weeks later the pain is quite immense, so he admits it's serious and he goes to the hospital. They find a tumour, which has since become metastatic, and the man dies.

I'm painting an awful picture here, and a worse case scenario. But it is not an impossible one, and Dillentante is simply exploring the options (a smart move).

Unfortunately, there is not a lot that you can do. Ranting gets you no where, and a person who fell into a hole without facts can't use them to climb out again. You can only monitor the situation and, should it ever become serious, look at serious options.

In the meantime, take any opportunity to demonstrate how rational thinking works to your family. That's one thing this forum is good for - resources.

Athon

[Dilettante]

Thanks for your support and concern Athon.

This case is a little weird because my parents are both "science people" (father is MD, mother a former high school teacher with an MS in microbiology). I still think the worst-case scenario is unlikely, since nobody in my family is afraid of doctors. At least, none of the people who are still alive. :rolleyes:

My immediate concern is more selfish: I may have to spend years dealing with faith healing as a topic. It's already uncomfortable trying to explain for the 1,000,000th time why I'm not interested in going to church regularly, and why I don't want to focus on marrying one of the nice Christian girls they know from church. (Many of them really are very nice, but why should I go looking in a place that selects for compatibility problems??)

But my mother in particular seems to think that she has now seen the "clincher" and she wants to know why I'm not convinced. It's hard for me to answer the questions without being rude, because honestly, I find her beliefs extremely implausible to begin with.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by athon


I don't think this is the issue. The problem lies in the fact that somebody used dubious means to 'heal' the shoulder,


There is as yet no evidence that there was any organic problem to be healed. The only thing that was "healed" was the pain - which allowed for a greater range of motion that would have otherwise produced an increase in pain.


establishing a precedent whereby those same means could be argued to be used for a potential future ailment, one that is not as straight forward as 'pain'.


As long as doctors are consulted about the organic nature of the state of any problem so "cured" (as was the case in this instance), I don't see a problem.


Imagine a future scenario where this man again feels pain, only this time in the abdomen. He sees the faith healer, who waves his hands and whatever, and the pain subsides a little due to simple expectation (as you said, pain is subjective. It is indeed a manifestation of a physical phenomena, but how it is negotiated by our nervous system relies on perception). This goes on another two times, and three weeks later the pain is quite immense, so he admits it's serious and he goes to the hospital. They find a tumour, which has since become metastatic, and the man dies.


I agree that such things can happen with an uninformed "faith healer". On the other hand, well-trained hypnotists know that they can't just remove abdominal pain and forget about it -- they understand that abdominal pain may be the result of apendicitis or other dangerous organic conditions. So they refer such clients to medical doctors for immediate attention -- before, or as a condition of, removing the pain.

I agree that the "faith healer" may not understand the necessity to consult medical professionals, but it seems that his father does understand that necessity -- at least at this time.


I'm painting an awful picture here, and a worse case scenario. But it is not an impossible one, and Dillentante is simply exploring the options (a smart move).

I agree completely. But how will denying the reality that pain was removed and that range of motion was restored look to the people who experienced those facts? It makes one (and one's arguments) look irrational.

He should accept the fact that the pain was alleviated and range of motion restored (those ARE the FACTS) and simply make sure that his father will seek medical advice whenever he encounters such problems, and not place all of his reliance exclusively on the "faith healer".

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Dilettante
Thanks for your support and concern Athon.

This case is a little weird because my parents are both "science people" (father is MD, mother a former high school teacher with an MS in microbiology). I still think the worst-case scenario is unlikely, since nobody in my family is afraid of doctors. At least, none of the people who are still alive. :rolleyes:

My immediate concern is more selfish: I may have to spend years dealing with faith healing as a topic. It's already uncomfortable trying to explain for the 1,000,000th time why I'm not interested in going to church regularly, and why I don't want to focus on marrying one of the nice Christian girls they know from church. (Many of them really are very nice, but why should I go looking in a place that selects for compatibility problems??)

But my mother in particular seems to think that she has now seen the "clincher" and she wants to know why I'm not convinced. It's hard for me to answer the questions without being rude, because honestly, I find her beliefs extremely implausible to begin with.

The "cure" was psychologically based (or at least psychologically instigated). Again, I would urge you to look into the work of the unbeliever, Moshe Feldenkrais.

[athon]

Originally posted by Suggestologist


There is as yet no evidence that there was any organic problem to be healed. The only thing that was "healed" was the pain - which allowed for a greater range of motion that would have otherwise produced an increase in pain.
[/B]

This whole distinction between 'organic' and 'subjective' has me concerned.

Pain is a very real, very physical phenomena. It is essentially a feature of the nervous systems which motivates the organism to remove itself from whatever is causing it discomfort. In other words, pain is an alert system drawing attention to damage being caused to the 'organic' system.

The problem with curing pain is that you are simply turning off the flashing light. The root cause of the pain might still be present. This is the key concern here - for me, pain becomes tolerable if I am aware of what is causing it. Hence fear is a major component of the reaction to the sensation of pain.

Athon

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by athon


This whole distinction between 'organic' and 'subjective' has me concerned.

Pain is a very real, very physical phenomena. It is essentially a feature of the nervous systems which motivates the organism to remove itself from whatever is causing it discomfort. In other words, pain is an alert system drawing attention to damage being caused to the 'organic' system.


It does not always reflect organic damage. Sometimes it is a false alert. And sometimes the false alert makes altering the physical situation (which may have no permanent damage) back to normality more difficult or even impossible.


The problem with curing pain is that you are simply turning off the flashing light. The root cause of the pain might still be present.


It might, but that is why one goes to the doctor to check.


This is the key concern here - for me, pain becomes tolerable if I am aware of what is causing it. Hence fear is a major component of the reaction to the sensation of pain.

Athon

Fear may work that way for you. I don't think it works that way for everyone.

And: What you describe can also be a form of hypochondriasis.

[athon]

Originally posted by Suggestologist


It does not always reflect organic damage. Sometimes it is a false alert. And sometimes the false alert makes altering the physical situation (which may have no permanent damage) back to normality more difficult or even impossible.


Fear may work that way for you. I don't think it works that way for everyone.

And: What you describe can also be a form of hypochondriasis. [/B]

First of all, what do you call a 'false alarm'? There is always a cause for pain, be it pinched nerves or swelling. Neurons rarely fire under their own, although the brain can perceive phantom pain (e.g., in rare cases of limb amputation). Occasionally doctors sever nerves to stop pain, once the cause is seen to be untreatable and non-degenerative.

'Pain' is not some spiritual, non-biological condition. With few exceptions, it is real, and while it is elusive in so far as it relies on a person's unique cognitive abilities to interpret it, it is always caused by something. The cause might not always be serious, but it nearly always exists.

Athon

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by athon


First of all, what do you call a 'false alarm'? There is always a cause for pain, be it pinched nerves or swelling. Neurons rarely fire under their own, although the brain can perceive phantom pain (e.g., in rare cases of limb amputation). Occasionally doctors sever nerves to stop pain, once the cause is seen to be untreatable and non-degenerative.


Even if I were to agree that pain always originates in some body-part, rather than sometimes merely occuring as a sensation within the brain -- only; the brain can amplify pain to levels that are not warranted by whatever the organic condition that caused it was.

In other words, the brain may be turning an ant-bite into a shark-bite. The body is a physical system with hard-wired intelligence -- it is often wrong about which alerts it sends to the brain as pain, since the evolutionary intent is to stop the condition that caused the pain and some conditions are basically irrelevant on that basis.

Pain can even be a conditioned response to stimuli. If you feel pain everytime you hear a noise, you'll link pain to the noise, and even if the pain-causing element goes away, just hearing the noise can produce pain sensation. This happens. This is not useful.


'Pain' is not some spiritual, non-biological condition. With few exceptions, it is real, and while it is elusive in so far as it relies on a person's unique cognitive abilities to interpret it, it is always caused by something. The cause might not always be serious, but it nearly always exists.

Athon

It is simply not correct that pain is always caused by something in the external environment or body part. It can be purely psychological, biology (apart from the brain) does not have to enter into it.

[Dilettante]

(Suggestologist)
Even if I were to agree that pain always originates in some body-part, rather than sometimes merely occuring as a sensation within the brain -- only; the brain can amplify pain to levels that are not warranted by whatever the organic condition that caused it was.

Very interesting. In this case probably not the explanation, but very interesting.

The closest thing that I know about is "referred pain", when a problem happens in one part of the body and the pain is felt somewhere else.

I'm basically willing to say that I don't know what happened and leave it to that. We say that about surprising things every day. We lose our socks in the drier; that doesn't mean there's a parallel universe where socks mysteriously show up in the drier.

Feldenkrais sounds pretty good. I want to try it myself. I saw the organization site, but I didn't see if he had a particular book that's a classic; is there one you recommend especially?

[athon]

Originally posted by Suggestologist


It is simply not correct that pain is always caused by something in the external environment or body part. It can be purely psychological, biology (apart from the brain) does not have to enter into it. [/B]

Whoa buddy, you're bordering on woo-woo land here.

Once you start dividing these things into categories based on disciplines, you start to lose focus. From what you are saying, psychology and biology are two different things. Please, tell me you're not saying that.

All things psychological are the manifestations of biological (namely biochemical) processes. Sad to say, there's nothing else to it. It is complicated, amazinf, beautiful...but still very physical, and still controlled by the mechanisms of biology.

So even phantom pain, displaced pain...whatever it is (even if it is a neuron firing without due influence - not to say I know of any conditions that do that), it still has biological causes. Nothing 'just happens'. Yes, it can be amplified by certain biological mechanisms, but even that 'ant bite that feels like a shark bite' has due biological processes.

Athon

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Dilettante


Very interesting. In this case probably not the explanation, but very interesting.

The closest thing that I know about is "referred pain", when a problem happens in one part of the body and the pain is felt somewhere else.

I'm basically willing to say that I don't know what happened and leave it to that. We say that about surprising things every day. We lose our socks in the drier; that doesn't mean there's a parallel universe where socks mysteriously show up in the drier.

Feldenkrais sounds pretty good. I want to try it myself. I saw the organization site, but I didn't see if he had a particular book that's a classic; is there one you recommend especially?

Feldenkrais wrote several books before his death in 1984. I'm currently reading The Potent Self: A Guide to Spontaneity, though Awareness Through Movement seems to be the most well-known book.

From the dust-jacket of Potent Self: "For example, Dr. Feldenkrais explains that the most frequent cause of tension in the neck is the fear of failure. When individuals realize the source of their tense spine and neck is their drive for perfection and success, then their ability to act with ease can be restored."

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by athon


Whoa buddy, you're bordering on woo-woo land here.

Once you start dividing these things into categories based on disciplines, you start to lose focus. From what you are saying, psychology and biology are two different things. Please, tell me you're not saying that.


I indicated that when I wrote "(apart from the brain)".


So even phantom pain, displaced pain...whatever it is (even if it is a neuron firing without due influence - not to say I know of any conditions that do that), it still has biological causes.


I'm not saying that a ghost did it. I'm simply saying that it didn't have to come from a body part, but could originate purely within the biology of the brain.


Nothing 'just happens'. Yes, it can be amplified by certain biological mechanisms, but even that 'ant bite that feels like a shark bite' has due biological processes.

Athon

Sure, but the unpleasantness of pain can be increased due to psychological factors -- such as fear and uncertainty. Sure, there are biological processes in the brain that facilitate the psychological processes; I'm just saying that pain does not have to be the result of an organic problem in the body part perceived to be sending the pain signal -- nor of any body-part sending a legitimate pain signal.

[Dilettante]

Suggestologist,

when does this typically happen?
I know about referred pain. And of course about persistence of sensation (but not usually for a long time: a few minutes at most).
I've also heard about amputees "feeling" things in their missing limbs. The reasons seem obvious enough.

Are there other cases when people will feel a false sensation in the body? How does this usually come about?

[dmarker]

Dilettante

I don't know if this applies to your father, but I will suggest it anyway.

About three weeks ago I had surgery to free my ulnar nerve. My symptoms were hypersensitivity and weakness in my right ring finger and pinkie and shooting pain through that side of my right forearm. The symptoms varied however and were hardly noticable, except the for weakness, when the doctor spent an hour and a half freeing the nerve.

To diagnose my condition, I had an electrical pulse test. I cannot remember the name of the test but the doctor put needles in the nerves of my arms and sent electricity throught the nerves to test their resistance. My left arm's nerves conducted eletricity normally, but my right arm, elbow down, would not.

Has your father had such a test before his healing? If so, ask him to take another now. If he had weakness in his arm before ask him if he still has it.

I don't know whether your father's condition is due to the nerves, joints, tendons, or muscles, but I hope this helps you.

[Cinorjer]

Coincidences do happen, all the time. We just have a hard time believing it's coincidence when it happens to us.

There have been many times in my life, and probably everyone who is sliding past middle age, when I have aches and pains that can be severe enough to limit motion. They eventually go away with some anti-inflamitory drugs and patience. A few required a trip to the doctor, but so far none in my case have required surgery. What your father experienced is common.

Here is the test to rule out coincidence: If your father had not gone to the faith healer, would he consider his pain going into remission a miracle? Of course not. The doctor will tell him it happens to a lot of people, without the faith healer. It's the fact that this one coincides with his trip to the church that makes it meaningful to him.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Dilettante
Suggestologist,

when does this typically happen?
I know about referred pain. And of course about persistence of sensation (but not usually for a long time: a few minutes at most).
I've also heard about amputees "feeling" things in their missing limbs. The reasons seem obvious enough.

Are there other cases when people will feel a false sensation in the body? How does this usually come about?

Well, do you feel the warmth in your right big toe, right now?

People increase pain sensation merely by paying more conscious attention to it; distraction from monitoring the sensation reduces it.

In fact, if you pay enough attention to a particular sensation in a particular body part, you can turn normal sensation that would normally be ignored by your conscious thoughs -- into pain sensation. Imagine that a bee has just stung you on your wrist, and pay extremely close attention to the bristling and then the sting sensation that you can get from your wrist -- for a couple minutes. Or, pay attention to the aches in your back (or feet, or other body part) for a couple minutes and see if the pain sensation increases.

[Dilettante]

Originally posted by dmarker
I cannot remember the name of the test but the doctor put needles in the nerves of my arms and sent electricity throught the nerves to test their resistance. My left arm's nerves conducted eletricity normally, but my right arm, elbow down, would not.

The "needle" part reminds me of electromyography.
The "nerves" and "conduct electricity" parts sound more like a "nerve conduction study".
Many years ago I had both tests done, to test for carpal tunnel syndrome (which I had).


Has your father had such a test before his healing? If so, ask him to take another now. If he had weakness in his arm before ask him if he still has it.

I don't know if he had these tests, but if they are relevant then he would have. Since he didn't have surgery, nobody has really seen inside.

I got to see him today for the first time since the healing. He still feels much better and I saw him raise his arm almost all the way. There's still some limitation of ROM.

He mentioned something about scar tissue, like "we don't know if there's still much scar tissue".

Apparently the touching did not involve major manipulation of the shoulder (although he did feel warmth).

[Dilettante]

Originally posted by Suggestologist
Well, do you feel the warmth in your right big toe, right now?


No.

My right big toe was noticeably colder than the left, which was pressed against my sandal bottom. Neither toe was warm.

I've had ingrown toenails many times, so I checked for that. They seem to be alright.

In fact, if you pay enough attention to a particular sensation in a particular body part, you can turn normal sensation that would normally be ignored by your conscious thoughs -- into pain sensation. Imagine that a bee has just stung you on your wrist,

I would think that would be painful anyway. :)

and pay extremely close attention to the bristling and then the sting sensation that you can get from your wrist -- for a couple minutes. Or, pay attention to the aches in your back (or feet, or other body part) for a couple minutes and see if the pain sensation increases.

It's not working right now.