Hillary's Cult

[kosai]

Looks like McCain and Obama aren't the only one with church troubles. Interesting article here:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080331/ehrenreich

Here's their Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_%28Christian_political_organization%29

http://www.sourcewatch.org/wiki.phtml?title=The_Fellowship

Not sure why the CNN, FoxNews, MSNBC's don't pick up this story. Seems these guys could give the Freemason CTists a run for their money.

[corplinx]

Is there any evidence at all that this is more than a peer-to-peer bible study/prayer group that serves pancakes sometimes?

[kosai]

Dunno, I just heard about them today, check the references on the wikipedia articles or these articles:

http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia.htm

There's also an upcoming book by this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Sharlet

Which you could preorder here:

http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060559799

[Kaylee]

Kosai, as far as I can tell your last link has nothing to do with your first two links in the OP.

"The Family" also known as "The Fellowship" seems to be a different organization altogether than the "The Family International."

That being the case, I didn't take time out to look at your links in post #3.

[UserGoogol]

I think there might be two different organizations called The Family. I'm not sure if I can see a connection between The Family the somewhat right-wing Christian political organization and The Family/Children of God the cult. If Hillary is associated with the former that's somewhat worth noting, but the latter seems just silly.

[EDIT: Apparently Kaylee made the same post as I was writing mine. Oh well.]

[kosai]

The group seems to go by many different names, I changed post 3 to those related to "The Family/Fellowship" which is outlined in The Nation article. If "The Family" article in Wikipedia was the wrong one I apologize. I will change it to "The Fellowship" article instead.

Here's a link to another article that outlines Hillary's The Family:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html

The group also goes by the names:

The Family
The Foundation
C Street Center
International Christian Leadership
The Fellowship Foundation
The International Foundation

So I hope you can forgive the mix up.

[Kaylee]

[EDIT: Apparently Kaylee made the same post as I was writing mine. Oh well.]

Skeptics think alike. ;)

Kaylee takes another look at all the posts in this forum.

Well, sometimes anyway! :)

[leftysergeant]

They're scary freaks whatever they call themselves. This is the Harlot of Revelations.

[Rob Lister]

Nice hit piece. Dem's eating their own.

[Brainster]

Despite Ehrenreich's best efforts (gee, wonder whom she's supporting), there doesn't seem to be much to this story other than the shocking revelation that Hillary prays to the same god as Republicans. Indeed, the initial story in Mother Jones seems quite a bit more balanced in tone.

[Upchurch]

Dem's eating their own.
Never underestimate the Democrats ability to take an easy win and turn it into a defeat. Over the last two presidential elections, they've gotten better at it.

[dudalb]

Never underestimate the Democrats ability to take an easy win and turn it into a defeat. Over the last two presidential elections, they've gotten better at it.


God,Yes.
The Florida and Michigan debacle shows that. Yes,if Dem Party officials in Florida and Michigan supported the date change despite party rules,a way needed to be found to punish them. But a way that would not alienate voters in two of the most important swing states in the Union.

[Cleon]

Never underestimate the Democrats ability to take an easy win and turn it into a defeat. Over the last two presidential elections, they've gotten better at it.

It's really the only thing they're actually good at.

[The Painter]

Funny, I brought this up last December. No one cared. It was in response to a claim that Hillary was the atheist in the bunch.


To be honest, I suspect it's Hillary but I recognize that it would be political suicide to confess

You suspect? I don't believe that. Why does she go to church? Maybe you you'll like this; from her own web site;

She states her faith has guided her in every aspect of her life, has helped her through all the tribulations of life, and is a driving force in the way she way she lives her life including voting on issues.

She joined The Fellowship

“The Fellowship believes that the elite win power by the will of God, who uses them for his purposes. Its mission is to help the powerful understand their role in God's plan.”

Instead of having the same exact doctrine of the United Methodist Church the Fellowship's ideas or beliefs are a blend of Calvinism and Norman Vincent Peale, the 1960's preacher of positive thinking. This religion is one of a positive thinking faith in the elect chosen by God. They devote their religious beliefs on the scripture Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers...The powers that be are ordained of God."

Look at the people she lists. Not a liberal Democrat in the bunch.

She met with members such as Eileen Bakke, wife of Dennis Bakke, a leader in the anti-union Christian management movement; Grace Nelson, the wife of Senator Bill Nelson, a conservative Florida Democrat; Susan Baker, wife of Bush consigliore James Baker; and Joanne Kemp, wife of conservative icon Jack Kemp in what is referred to as a Christian “cell”.

WOW I mean WOW This sounds like the non Catholic Opus Dei

I don't think she is an atheist. I don't even know if she's a Democrat! Do you remember when she said she talked to the ghost of Eleanor Roosevelt?



http://www.hillary-rodham-clinton.org/hillarys_religion.html



The quotes are sourced to Clinton's site. They are listed right after Gun Control. And you thought Bush was nutty. This is right up there.

[kosai]

Funny, I brought this up last December. No one cared. It was in response to a claim that Hillary was the atheist in the bunch.

The quotes are sourced to Clinton's site. They are listed right after Gun Control. And you thought Bush was nutty. This is right up there.


That was my point, nobody seems to care now either. This may be why Hillary hasn't really gone after the Rev. Wright comments. She knows her religious background is at least as much, if not more, nutty.

[Kaylee]

That was my point, nobody seems to care now either. This may be why Hillary hasn't really gone after the Rev. Wright comments. She knows her religious background is at least as much, if not more, nutty.

Well, speaking for myself, I haven't commented because it all seems over the top -- something that belongs in a Hollywood movie and not in real life.

And it also seems to be based on hearsay -- is there any hard evidence for any of this?

[The Painter]

Well, speaking for myself, I haven't commented because it all seems over the top -- something that belongs in a Hollywood movie and not in real life.

And it also seems to be based on hearsay -- is there any hard evidence for any of this?

How's this;

http://www.hillary-rodham-clinton.or..._religion.html

It's from Hillary Clinton's own web site. (that means it's not hearsay)

Today, however, Hillary may not be visiting the United Methodist Church as much as she once did, when she came to Washington in 1993, she joined a Bible study group. She met with members such as Eileen Bakke, wife of Dennis Bakke, a leader in the anti-union Christian management movement; Grace Nelson, the wife of Senator Bill Nelson, a conservative Florida Democrat; Susan Baker, wife of Bush consigliore James Baker; and Joanne Kemp, wife of conservative icon Jack Kemp in what is referred to as a Christian “cell”. The group is a part of the Fellowship of a network of sex-segregated cells of business, political, and military leaders. The Fellowship is dedicated to "spiritual war on behalf of Christ”. The only public event for the Fellowship is the National Prayer Breakfast, the remainder of the time it is kept behind closed doors or as put by former Republican Senator William Armstrong "made a fetish of being invisible."

“The Fellowship believes that the elite win power by the will of God, who uses them for his purposes. Its mission is to help the powerful understand their role in God's plan.”

Instead of having the same exact doctrine of the United Methodist Church the Fellowship's ideas or beliefs are a blend of Calvinism and Norman Vincent Peale, the 1960's preacher of positive thinking. This religion is one of a positive thinking faith in the elect chosen by God. They devote their religious beliefs on the scripture Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers...The powers that be are ordained of God."


If this link doesn't work, try the one in my quote 3 posts before this.

[plumjam]

having misread the title I have to say this thread is a bit disappointing

[UserGoogol]

The quotes are sourced to Clinton's site. They are listed right after Gun Control. And you thought Bush was nutty. This is right up there.

I don't see any source. If you mean hillary-rodham-clinton.org, that clearly isn't her website.

[kosai]

Well, speaking for myself, I haven't commented because it all seems over the top -- something that belongs in a Hollywood movie and not in real life.

And it also seems to be based on hearsay -- is there any hard evidence for any of this?

What part of the story do you doubt?

Especially when you are talking about religion... Just because it all seems ridiculous doesn't make it any less true, just look at Scientology.

[Kaylee]

What part of the story do you doubt?

Especially when you are talking about religion... Just because it all seems ridiculous doesn't make it any less true, just look at Scientology.

Well, that is certainly true.

But here's one part of the story that I have questions about:

The Unsuccessful Right-Wing Coup Against a Democratic President

Vereide and Buchman had important allies on Wall Street. According to Marine Corps General Smedley Butler, shortly after Franklin Roosevelt was elected President in 1932, he was approached by a group of wealthy Republican industrialists to lead an anti-Roosevelt Fascist coup against the government. As with today’s Fellowship, Vereide and Buchman were merely front men for anti-Socialist big businesses who hid behind the façade of a Christian evangelical movement. To them and their bankrollers, Roosevelt was some sort of anti-Christ who was going to go to bat for the workers, blacks, the poor and women while, at the same time, menacing the ultra-rich and the rising Nazi and Fascist specter in Europe. The coup was to be financed mostly by the J. P. Morgan and Du Pont financial empires. General Butler, who had no time for these industrialists since his military forays into Central America and the Caribbean as a foot soldier on behalf of wealthy capitalists, rejected their overture. Gerald MacGuire, a Wall Street bond salesman and former Commander of the Connecticut American Legion, was the chief recruiter for the coup plot. Butler informed Congress of the plans for the coup. However, Congress was owned by Wall Street and no charges were ever brought against the plotters. Butler was incensed and went public but he was dismissed as a conspiracy theorist. Not until 1967, when journalist John Spivak uncovered the secret Congressional report, was Butler’s version of the events validated. In the report of the Special Committee to Investigate Nazi Propaganda Activities in the United States, Rep. Samuel Dickstein (D-NY) concluded that there was evidence of a coup plot by the right-wing against Roosevelt. However, much to Butler’s chagrin, no criminal action was taken against the plotters.


Butler said MacGuire’s plan was for Butler to force Roosevelt to declare he had become too sick from polio and create a powerful new Cabinet position, the Secretary of General Affairs, to run the government on his behalf. The New Deal, something the U.S. fascists and Nazis referred to as the “Jew Deal,” would have be scrapped. The comparison between the Secretary of General Affairs and the present Secretary of Homeland Security is striking. If Roosevelt did not agree to the coup plotters’ demand, a half million American Legion veterans would march on Washington to physically remove Roosevelt from office. But MacGuire decided that the perception management campaign would work and an armed force would not be required. He told Butler, “You know the American people will swallow that. We have got the newspapers. We will start a campaign that the President’s health is failing. Everyone can tell that by looking at him, and the dumb American people will fall for it in a second…” Shortly after his testimony before the House investigation committee, MacGuire died of pneumonia at the age of 37.


Not one footnote. Not one citation. How could I even start to verify that?

However, for what it’s worth, thanks to the Mother Jones link, I learned that Clinton is in favor of the Workplace Religious Freedom Act.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-3.html


With Santorum, Clinton co-sponsored the Workplace Religious Freedom Act; she didn't back off even after Republican senators such as Pennsylvania's Arlen Specter pulled their names from the bill citing concerns that the measure would protect those refusing to perform key aspects of their jobs—say, pharmacists who won't fill birth control prescriptions, or police officers who won't guard abortion clinics.

I read about this in other sites, including Wikipedia. While I like the idea that this act could reinforce an employees right to wear a beard, turban or not be forced to work on a religious holiday – it seems these rights are already protected by other laws. Passing the WRFA might also have the consequences mentioned in the Mother Jones article. That being the case, we may be better off just working with our current laws or having the WRFA rewritten with much narrower language.

But so far, that is the only hard fact that I could find in the various links that I could verify elsewhere or trace to hard evidence.


Over to you: Do you accept this story without any reservations -- or are you just bringing it up to discuss?

[kosai]

I simply have no reason currently to not believe the story. The authors in question don't seem to be liars. The sources that published them don't appear to have a ton of anti-hillary propaganda. I would accept a denial by the Clinton camp as bringing the issue up for debate however they have been quiet (or The Painter says they have confirmed it in their own writings, I did not see that so I can't judge.)


It's not like they are claiming they are sacrafising virgins under the blood moon and planning 9/11 II:The Sequel. I just brought it up to discuss, it seems like a church group that is strongly tied to Republican politicians and ideals. I'm a democrat and that kind of linkage doesn't sit well with me. I suppose the book coming out in May is going to have a lot more information, if Hillary is still viable then I may pick it up.

[Kaylee]

I simply have no reason currently to not believe the story. The authors in question don't seem to be liars. The sources that published them don't appear to have a ton of anti-hillary propaganda. I would accept a denial by the Clinton camp as bringing the issue up for debate however they have been quiet (or The Painter says they have confirmed it in their own writings, I did not see that so I can't judge.)

That web site really doesn't look official. I didn't have time to look up the owner though. Anyway, I don't doubt that she is affiliated with a group called The Fellowship. I just have some doubts about what they are being accused of. And its such a lengthy list, it would take me an extremely long time to go through it all.

However -- I did see this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot#cite_ref-44

The Congressional committee report confirmed Butler's testimony:

In the last few weeks of the committee's official life it received evidence showing that certain persons had made an attempt to establish a fascist government in this country. No evidence was presented and this committee had none to show a connection between this effort and any fascist activity of any European country. There is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient. This committee received evidence from Maj. Gen Smedley D. Butler (retired), twice decorated by the Congress of the United States. He testified before the committee as to conversations with one Gerald C. MacGuire in which the latter is alleged to have suggested the formation of a fascist army under the leadership of General Butler.[45] MacGuire denied these allegations under oath, but your committee was able to verify all the pertinent statements made by General Butler, with the exception of the direct statement suggesting the creation of the organization. This, however, was corroborated in the correspondence of MacGuire with his principal, Robert Sterling Clark, of New York City, while MacGuire was abroad studying the various forms of veterans organizations of Fascist character.[46]

Even though the Senate committee did take the threat seriously and did verify that a fascist coup was indeed well past the planning stage, the Senate committee expired.

<snip>

[ed: Wikipedia’s Source:]^ Investigation of Nazi Propaganda Activities and Investigation of Certain Other Propaganda Activities: Public Hearings Before the Special Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Seventy-third Congress, Second Session, at Washington, D.C. p.8-114 D.C. 6 II
Schmidt, p. 245 "HUAC's final report to Congress: "There is no question that these attempts [the plot] were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient." The committee had verified "all the pertinent statements made by General Butler, with the exception of the direct statement suggesting the creation of the organization.""

^ ibid. p. 111 D.C. 6 II.


One of the explanation’s as to why no one was arrested:

As part of the BBC Radio Document program "The Whitehouse coup",[39] John Buchanan suggests that Roosevelt stopped the investigation as part of a political deal: "The investigations mysteriously turned to vapor when it comes time to call them to testify. FDR's main interest was getting the New Deal passed. And so he struck a deal in which it was agreed that the plotters would walk free if Wall Street would back off of their opposition to the New Deal and let FDR do what he wanted."

I’m a little speechless at the moment. Just one of the many things not taught in American grade school and high school history classes I suppose.



It's not like they are claiming they are sacrafising virgins under the blood moon and planning 9/11 II:The Sequel. I just brought it up to discuss, it seems like a church group that is strongly tied to Republican politicians and ideals. I'm a democrat and that kind of linkage doesn't sit well with me. I suppose the book coming out in May is going to have a lot more information, if Hillary is still viable then I may pick it up.
If the author includes citations, I'll read it.

[TriskettheKid]

I’m a little speechless at the moment. Just one of the many things not taught in American grade school and high school history classes I suppose.

As a recent Tufts graduate, with a degree in History, I can honestly say that you barely scratched the surface of the problem.

The way that public schools are set up, it's damned near impossible to really get into the nuance that history requires. My high school history classes (two were regular classes, one was AP American History, one was AP Euro History), were a mere 50 minutes in length. Our tests were multiple choice, save the APs (which is HORRIBLE for a history class). Rarely would we do anything more than spit back dates and names for our tests, our papers, and our quizzes.

Frankly, after getting a degree in history, our public school's are pretty much [Rule 10] when it comes to teaching history, hell, liberal arts in general.

I think the time would be better spent either focusing in on one subject, or focusing on historical theory itself. Being able to spit back dates, names, and important moments is NOT being educated in history. It's being educated in wrote memorization.

[Kaylee]

As a recent Tufts graduate, with a degree in History, I can honestly say that you barely scratched the surface of the problem.

The way that public schools are set up, it's damned near impossible to really get into the nuance that history requires. My high school history classes (two were regular classes, one was AP American History, one was AP Euro History), were a mere 50 minutes in length. Our tests were multiple choice, save the APs (which is HORRIBLE for a history class). Rarely would we do anything more than spit back dates and names for our tests, our papers, and our quizzes.

Frankly, after getting a degree in history, our public school's are pretty much [Rule 10] when it comes to teaching history, hell, liberal arts in general.

I think the time would be better spent either focusing in on one subject, or focusing on historical theory itself. Being able to spit back dates, names, and important moments is NOT being educated in history. It's being educated in wrote memorization.


Sounds like the start of a good thread in either the history or education forum!
(Yeah that's a hint!)

I agree its pretty silly to spend most of the class time regurgitating the names and dates of historical events. However, I can see at the beginning of every school year a teacher taking a few days out to teach memorization techniques as that can come in handy in any area where you have to keep track of info -- but then spending the rest of the time teaching the subject and not merely dates and names. Kids can memorize that stuff on their own. I do think its worthwhile to memorize some historical facts for the same reason I think its useful to memorize the multiplication tables and not just understand the idea behind multiplying.

BTW, I'm surprised there hasn't been much of a reaction to the fact that in 1934 some people (Du Pont family, as well as leaders of U.S. Steel, General Motors, Standard Oil, Chase National Bank, and Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot#cite_ref-44) ) were considering a fascist coup to take over the USA. Maybe I should I have typed that part in colored letters and big flashing fonts? :boggled: :D

Or perhaps this is old news to everyone else? :confused:

[godofpie]

having misread the title I have to say this thread is a bit disappointing
Plumjam-get some glasses! (and your mind out of the gutter);)

[Whiplash]

having misread the title I have to say this thread is a bit disappointing


Um, thanks very much, I was about to sit down to eat something, and that is not an image I was even remotely interested in ever imagining. ;)