Rush Limbaugh Sacked

[corplinx]

Rush Limbaugh "resigned" his position with ESPN tonight (Wed 01).

The first things that came to mind were Michael Savage and Jimmy the Greek.

Michael Savage was someone rightly canned by MSNBC for among using hateful speech against a gay caller on the air.

Jimmy the Greek was crapcanned from CBS years ago for speaking an unpleasant truth.

In this case, I think Rush is more lke Jimmy the Greek than Michael Savage.

The media and the sports organizations always make a story out of the novelty player. Tiger Woods anyone? Tiger nowadays however is "da man" when it comes to golf and the novelty of "look, its a non-white guy" is over with. Or how about the big Chinese center in the NBA?

The truth is, the media and the sports orgs are hardly colorblind at all. They pay extra special attention to players like these as if they are fish-out-of-water stories. If you look at what Rush said, and analyze the data, I think you could make the case that this player is overhyped and the most likely reason is because he is black. Mind you, I think hyping a minority quarterback in a game where minority athletes are in the majority is silly on the surface.

[Renfield]

Tiger? Really? Think it might have anything to do with his being a child prodigy? What about his winning four masters in a row - never done before?

I guess if it had been a white player those commie simp liberals in the media would have just ignored it.

:eek:

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Renfield
Tiger? Really? Think it might have anything to do with his being a child prodigy? What about his winning four masters in a row - never done before?

I guess if it had been a white player those commie simp liberals in the media would have just ignored it.

:eek:

Tiger started his much publicized career with 4 masters already under his belt? Wow. No wonder they gave him so much coverage.

Yes, I do think that at the beginning there was a lot of curiousity coverage of Tiger because he was non-white. I can't prove it of course.

However, I might have picked a bad example. You could be right. However, do you disagree with the rest of my post?

[Renfield]

Originally posted by corplinx


Tiger started his much publicized career with 4 masters already under his belt? Wow. No wonder they gave him so much coverage.

Yes, I do think that at the beginning there was a lot of curiousity coverage of Tiger because he was non-white. I can't prove it of course.

However, I might have picked a bad example. You could be right. However, do you disagree with the rest of my post?

You never specified that you were referring to the beginning of his career. Anyway, Tiger was a child prodigy. He appeared on national television when he was a kid, to display his incredible golf skills. In college, he was a phenom, and was expected to do big things once he hit the pros. Such players usually do get some media attention.

[Zep]

Rush Limbaugh sacked?

<h1>Good.</h1>

But don't stop there, folks. There's a whole bunch of other loudmouth kooks who should be treated the same way.

[Cain]

In this case, I think Rush is more lke Jimmy the Greek than Michael Savage.

Of course you do -- you're a moron.

You have to prove two things: 1) McNabb is over-rated 2) McNabb is over-rated because he's black. This reminds me of white racists I've encountered who claimed media bias in coverage of the Lakers and Celtics during the 80s. The media apparently loved the Lakers and wanted them to succeed because they were black.

I don't really blame Rush, though. He probably couldn't see the games very well with that big white sheet over his head. He's not a racist, either. He knows he needs big black guys to protect our white QBs from other big black guys. There's only a problem the moment a black dude becomes the leader. (I'm kidding, of course!! But am I kidding on the square?)

[richardm]

Originally posted by Renfield

. Anyway, Tiger was a child prodigy. He appeared on national television when he was a kid, to display his incredible golf skills. In college, he was a phenom, and was expected to do big things once he hit the pros. Such players usually do get some media attention.


In the UK at least, and certainly among the non-golfing fraternity, I very much got the impression that he got so much attention at that first Masters because he was the first (or perhaps the first in a long while) black player to get to that position - in a way, he appeared to be the most famous person nobody had ever heard of.

I recall that Nike had an advert with a bunch of kids all saying "I am Tiger Woods", which was interesting because the significance of being Tiger Woods was wasted on most of us. I don't recall ever hearing of the man until that point. Now, of course, we all know him on merit.

[Tricky]

Maybe it's because he was on drugs? (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28004)

[HarryKeogh]

i thought rush brought up a legitimate point and shouldnt have had to resign (please note i'm not a big sports fan or an admirer of rush)

the media handles race oddly.

tiger woods deserves recognition because he's the best player around today but it makes a better story because he's black (or part black at least) in a traditionally white man's game.

charles barkley once chided the media for presenting a better than average white player (forget the name) as the possible next big thing in basketball. barkley said "you'd love that, a great white hope"

how many times are we reminded that there hasn't been a white heavyweight champion in umpteen years?

when i was a kid i used to wonder why there werent many black catchers in baseball. good thing i didnt bring it up or i would have had to resign my position as lunchroom monitor.

the media and marketing machine love to show that chinese basketball player. sure, one of hte first things to go through our minds is "wow, he's tall" but before that we probably said "wow, he's chinese and that tall!"

i dont think rush did anything wrong. just brought up an interesting topic. the media loves to work the race angle into it's stories.

[Tricky]

Valid points, Harry, but it wasn't that Rush brought up the fact that McNabb was black that got him in trouble. It was that he insinuated that McNabb was getting preferential treatment or being overrated because of his race. Now perhaps there is an element of truth there, but if someone makes that contention, they had damn well better be ready to back it up with some facts, and I can't see where Rush did that.

And of course, the rules are different for commentators. I watch Charles Barkley when he does the NBA show and he is quite toned down from how he used to talk when he was a player. But Charles got a lot of grief over his career for his big mouth and had he been a commentator when he said "I hate white people", he would have been sacked too.

For my money, Steve McNair is slightly better than McNabb. That only goes to show that people of Scottish/Irish descent make better quarterbacks.

[Crossbow]

I do not know why anyone even bothers with Rush Limbaugh anymore.

Just let him ramble on his radio show and that way when he flops, it will be all his fault and no one else will have to deal with the down wash.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Crossbow
I do not know why anyone even bothers with Rush Limbaugh anymore.

Just let him ramble on his radio show and that way when he flops, it will be all his fault and no one else will have to deal with the down wash.
I bother with him because he is still a powerful symbol of the radical right. I know a number of people who still hang on his every word, and will defend him vociferously in this latest gaffe. I bother with him because it is not enough to let the voices of hate simply fade to background. I want them discredited.

Just as I cheered when Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker were shown to be smarmy hypocrites, I cheer when Rush Limbaugh is hoist by his own foul petard. (I know that is not a pretty image;) )

[Cain]

It's possible to excuse such a remark from other commentators, but Rush has a history:

As a young broadcaster in the 1970s, Limbaugh once told a black caller: "Take that bone out of your nose and call me back." A decade ago, after becoming nationally syndicated, he mused on the air: "Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?"

In 1992, on his now-defunct TV show, Limbaugh expressed his ire when Spike Lee urged that black schoolchildren get off from school to see his film Malcolm X: "Spike, if you're going to do that, let's complete the education experience. You should tell them that they should loot the theater, and then blow it up on their way out."

In a similar vein, here is Limbaugh's mocking take on the NAACP, a group with a ninety-year commitment to nonviolence: "The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies."

When Carol Moseley-Braun (D-IL) was in the U.S. Senate, the first black woman ever elected to that body, Limbaugh would play the "Movin' On Up" theme song from TV's "Jeffersons" when he mentioned her. Limbaugh sometimes still uses mock dialect -- substituting "ax" for "ask"-- when discussing black leaders.

Such quotes and antics -- many compiled by Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting (FAIR) for our 1995 book -- offer a whiff of Limbaugh's racial sensibility. So does his claim that racism in America "is fueled primarily by the rantings and ravings" of people like Jesse Jackson. Or his ugly reference two years ago to the father of Madonna's first child, a Latino, as "a gang-member type guy" -- an individual with no gang background.

http://www.fair.org/articles/limbaugh-color.html

[Evolver]

Apparently it's okay to be a racist on right-wing whacko talk radio, but not on a sports show.:confused:

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Cain


Of course you do -- you're a moron.

I don't really blame Rush, though. He probably couldn't see the games very well with that big white sheet over his head.

I am sure that if I am a moron, that it took one to know it. Thanks Cain for degrading the thread with ad hominem.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Evolver
Apparently it's okay to be a racist on right-wing whacko talk radio, but not on a sports show.:confused:
Of course. The employer decides what image they want to project. ESPN found out that Limbaugh's image was not the one they wanted associated with their station. I tried to warn them. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23430)

[Blue Monk]

I would expect most any knowledgeable commentator in the sports field to at one time or hold a slightly different view than the pack at large concerning any individuals ability.

If Rush was in disagreement with the consensus over the abilities of a white player would he attribute this to any sort of 'group think' or would he rightly recognize this as merely a difference of opinion?

The fact is that Rush in one fell swoop dismisses any possibility that other commentators may actually be able to think for themselves and simply hold a different opinion than he does about a specific player.

When faced with a situation where he is in disagreement with others over a black player, Rush assumes, with no factual basis whatsoever to back it up, that the players race is a factor.

The reasoning behind each persons opinion on this matter are no doubt as wide and varied as the people themselves and the only person we know for a fact that has factored the players race into the equation, by his own statements, is Rush.

[Upchurch]

My fiancee was really upset about this. Not because he got in trouble but because he got in trouble over a race issue and not over all the sexist cr@p he's spewed over the years.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Upchurch
My fiancee was really upset about this. Not because he got in trouble but because he got in trouble over a race issue and not over all the sexist cr@p he's spewed over the years.
Just remind her that they finally nabbed Al Capone for income tax evasion.

[Tricky]

Oh, here's a great quote from Limbaugh on his syndicated talk show:
"All this has become the tempest that it is because I must have been right about something," Limbaugh said. "If I wasn't right, there wouldn't be this cacophony of outrage that has sprung up in the sports writer community."

So having people outraged by something you say is the measure of how right you are? I guess Al Sharpton must be right about everything then.

[Evolver]

Originally posted by Tricky


So having people outraged by something you say is the measure of how right you are? I guess Al Sharpton must be right about everything then.

And Clinton DIDN'T have sex with Monica.:wink8:

[Nie Trink Wasser]

IT'S ELECTION TIME.

They're desperate and going for any angle they can get.

The liberal media blitz continues.

it makes me proud of not being a liberal.

[Evolver]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
IT'S ELECTION TIME.

They're desperate and going for any angle they can get.

The liberal media blitz continues.

it makes me proud of not being a liberal.

Ohhh. The "Liberal" media made Rush make his boneheaded comment. Now I understand.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
IT'S ELECTION TIME.

They're desperate and going for any angle they can get.

The liberal media blitz continues.

it makes me proud of not being a liberal.
I'm proud that you are not a liberal, as well.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
IT'S ELECTION TIME.

They're desperate and going for any angle they can get.

The liberal media blitz continues.

it makes me proud of not being a liberal.

And I am glad that people like you are "conservatives"!

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Evolver


Ohhh. The "Liberal" media made Rush make his boneheaded comment. Now I understand.

wrong.

you just lost more points on your iq test.

the liberals in the media are spinning a comment about them into a racial issue, because their logic is racially dependent and they need to smear rush for the 2004 campaign against Bush and anything republican.

[Skeptic]

Wow. A quarterback in the NFL is overrated! Ohmigod!!! That NEVER happened before those uppity blacks ruined the game...

Next week: Rush gets fired from his job as a weatherman, for blaming a tornado in Oklahoma on the jews in the meteorology service.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Wow. A quarterback in the NFL is overrated! Ohmigod!!! That NEVER happened before those uppity blacks ruined the game...


It isn't that. I think Limbaugh might have stepped on some toes. The NFL probably was intentionally pushing the player's visibility because of criticism in the past about the lack of black coaches, qbs, etc.

For the record, Rush made the comment on a program with two black broacasters and they did debate it.

I think the sharks smelled blood with this story and no sooner had Tuesday gone by than a respected general and a civil rights activist had lumped onto the pile.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by corplinx

For the record, Rush made the comment on a program with two black broacasters and they did debate it.



thanks for pointing that out.

a lot of people are ignoring this point and it's a good example of how free speech in the media is selective.

[Ed]

It seems to me that he expressed an opinion. I also think that there is every possibility that a player might be hyped because of his race. Novelty means $ in entertainment.

Sports are stupid at their core so who really cares?

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Ed


Sports are stupid at their core so who really cares?


the 2004-election machine cares.

[corplinx]

Nobody ever was fired in my recollect for pointing out that a white guy was only covered because he was white in a majority black sport.

Anytime a white heavyweight boxer wins one match it seems he becomes a sensation. Anyone remember Tommy Gun Morrison?

In this case, I think the backlash at Rush's comments (even if they are pure supposition on his part) show how far we have to go as a country on the issue of race.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

remember when the black baseball coach made the statement about how black people can last longer in the sun ?

I really didnt care about his statement, but I did care about how the liberals in media chose to ignore that.

Its interesting to compare that to whats happening now.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser



the 2004-election machine cares.

Why?

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Ed


Why?


smear the republicans and get their guy (if they ever pick one) in office.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser

the 2004-election machine cares. Wait, who?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by corplinx
For the record, Rush made the comment on a program with two black broacasters and they did debate it.
Actually, they didn't debate it (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1628539) and that was one thing that ticked off McNabb so much.
McNabb, the subject of Limbaugh's criticism, was shocked not only by Limbaugh's comments, but that no one on the pregame panel counterattacked.

Among NFL Countdown's commentators are former players Michael Irvin and Tom Jackson, both of whom are black.

"I'm not pointing at anyone but someone should have said it," McNabb said of the panelists, who also include former quarterback Steve Young. "I wouldn't have cared if it was the cameraman."

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Tricky

Actually, they didn't debate it (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1628539) and that was one thing that ticked off McNabb so much.



you're missing the point.

there is a difference between debating the issue and stopping the conversation in order to call someone a racist. Especially when it's fairly absurd to do so.

[clk]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser

I really didnt care about his statement, but I did care about how the liberals in media chose to ignore that.



You say that as if nobody reported the story. There was actually alot of controversy over that, as well. The coach was saying that black players perform better in the heat, in his observation. Rush's comments were different in that he was accusing the media of giving preferential treatment to a quarterback because the quarterback was black.

[rikzilla]

Time for moi to chime in I guess....

I think Rush tends to complicate issues which are not complex. I also am a football fan. Do I think McNab is overrated? It's possible to hold this opinion without being racist. A case (flimsy case mind you) could be made after going 1-3 that McNab has not played as strong as he has in the past. But judging a guy on 4 games is pretty weak, hell, even Dan Marino had slumps longer than that and I never heard anyone say he was overrated. But in the end, even die hard fans had to admit it was past time for old Dan to bow out.

So, IMHO, calling McNab overrated after 4 games is pretty weak logic. Stupid even for a sports analyst...but even for a mere fan it's lame. Then, taking his first assertion as gospel...he goes on to blame it on the "liberal media conspiracy" and bases the whole thing on race. Now that's just plain old woo-wooism.

If he'd have just claimed McNab was overrated he would have had an arguable point. The rest of it just showed a penchant for knee-jerk political and racial bias. ESPN will be better off without him. We get plenty of divisive politics all day long, football is one of the places we go to escape that kind of crap. (at least I do)

Good-riddance Mr. Limbaugh!
-z

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by clk

You say that as if nobody reported the story. There was actually alot of controversy over that, as well.


for the record I did not phrase it as if it wasnt reported. It just wasn't exaggerated like this one is.


The coach was saying that black players perform better in the heat, in his observation. Rush's comments were different in that he was accusing the media of giving preferential treatment to a quarterback because the quarterback was black.


so if there is no issue of someone being a racist, what is the issue ?

is it illegal to have an opinion ?

of course it is if you're a conservative figurehead in the crosshairs of a desperate liberal election campaign.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
you're missing the point.

there is a difference between debating the issue and stopping the conversation in order to call someone a racist. Especially when it's fairly absurd to do so.
That didn't happen either. Nothing happened. The comment was just left to float there like a t*rd in a punchbowl.

And since when is it absurd to call Limbaugh a racist? Remember the quotes earlier in the thread, like:
In a similar vein, here is Limbaugh's mocking take on the NAACP, a group with a ninety-year commitment to nonviolence: "The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies."

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
Originally posted by corplinx

For the record, Rush made the comment on a program with two black broacasters and they did debate it.thanks for pointing that out.

a lot of people are ignoring this point and it's a good example of how free speech in the media is selective. Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
Originally posted by Trick

Actually, they didn't debate it and that was one thing that ticked off McNabb so much.you're missing the point.

there is a difference between debating the issue and stopping the conversation in order to call someone a racist. Especially when it's fairly absurd to do so.
:rolleyes:

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Upchurch

:rolleyes:

the iq in the room just dropped.





Someone post a transcript from the entire segment !

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Tricky

That didn't happen either. Nothing happened. The comment was just left to float there like a t*rd in a punchbowl.

And since when is it absurd to call Limbaugh a racist? Remember the quotes earlier in the thread, like:


Yes, I overspoke when I said they debated it. It is ESPN after all, not CrossFire.

The point is, they had a chance to respond but merely dismissed out of out instead going into the details.

The fine details are, he is a decent quarterback but nothing special if you look at the numbers.

The only thing left to argue is "why does he get so much coverage then versus any other quarterback with the same record?"

My guess is ESPN's format doesn't cover long and embarrassing self-examination of media coverage.

Seriously, Rush shot himself in the foot here. He has noone to blame to himself. Its one thing to say "this player is overhyped" its another one to criticize the machine you are now apart of.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky

And since when is it absurd to call Limbaugh a racist? Remember the quotes earlier in the thread, like:


Calling Limbaugh a "racist" and "radical" is just a strawman.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony
Calling Limbaugh a "racist" and "radical" is just a strawman.
No, a strawman would be if we attributed things to him that he didn't' say. This whole topic is base on his exact words.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony


Calling Limbaugh a "racist" and "radical" is just a strawman. Only if it isn't true.

[Evolver]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser


wrong.

you just lost more points on your iq test.

the liberals in the media are spinning a comment about them into a racial issue, because their logic is racially dependent and they need to smear rush for the 2004 campaign against Bush and anything republican.

And you gained points on your sheep test.
I was wondering how long it would be 'til I pissed you off.
WAHHHHHHH Liberal media. Liberal media. WAAAAAAAAAAHHHH

You don't get it. You never will.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky

No, a strawman would be if we attributed things to him that he didn't' say. This whole topic is base on his exact words.

but his words were not racism.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

I spideysense that the thread is suddenly being mucked up for spinsake.


until it comes back around to a sensible conversation, I'll just watch.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Only if it isn't true.

Its not true. Can you quote Limbaugh, in context, saying he dislikes or hates black people or any race?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony

but his words were not racism.
Here are his words: (emphasis mine)
I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well,'' Limbaugh said. "There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve.

There are no two ways around it. He said that a quarterback got underserved credit because he was black.

How bad would a statement have to be before you would consider it racist?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky

There are no two ways around it. He said that a quarterback got underserved credit because he was black.



:dl:

Gimme a break, you're not this dumb. A cynical opinion is not racism.

How bad would a statement be before you would consider it racist?

How about, "I hate those *******!!!"

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony

Its not true. Can you quote Limbaugh, in context, saying he dislikes or hates black people or any race? How about complete disregard?

One article (http://www.fair.org/articles/limbaugh-color.html) three years ago.
In 1994, Limbaugh mocked St. Louis for building a rail line to East St. Louis "where nobody goes." East St. Louis is home to roughly 40,000 residents -- 98 percent of whom are African-Americans. One of its 40,000 "nobodies" is star NFL linebacker Bryan Cox.
As a young broadcaster in the 1970s, Limbaugh once told a black caller: "Take that bone out of your nose and call me back."
Once, in response to a caller arguing that black people need to be heard, Limbaugh responded: "They are 12 percent of the population. Who the hell cares?"
When Carol Moseley-Braun (D-Ill.) was in the U.S. Senate--the first black woman ever elected to that body--Limbaugh would play the "Movin' On Up" theme song from TV's "Jeffersons" when he mentioned her. Limbaugh sometimes still uses mock dialect--substituting "ax" for "ask"--when discussing black leaders.

[c0rbin]

First:

the iq in the room just dropped.

:roll:

Second:

Tony,
How is it a straw man to claim that someone is a racist who has shown a penchant for racism over the span of his career.

If you want to debate wether or not what RL said was racist of not, state your case.

Personally, I think that Rik makes the good point.

What are yours?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Upchurch
How about complete disregard?


Complete disregard, mabey some disrespect. So what!! Its nothing you cant see at a Chris Rock show.

You guys are just hounding Rush because he is a propagandist you dont like, typical really. Most of the bs on this forum (or any forum) is partisan driven.

[rikzilla]

Well,

I don't really think Limbaugh's comments were racist...nor do I suspect the things he said in the past rise to the level of racism. But the guy does hold an obvious bias against black people. He may not hate them irrationally (racism)...but I do believe his record points to a dislike...a bias...a prejudice.

He didn't have to bring race into the question of McNabb's over-ratedness. Somehow it has escaped Limbaugh that McNabb, if overrated, could have been overrated for purely non-racial reasons. His bias wouldn't let him consider it tho. Again, good riddance!

-z

[Tony]

Originally posted by c0rbin

Tony,
How is it a straw man to claim that someone is a racist who has shown a penchant for racism over the span of his career.


I dont think he has shown a penchant for racism, no more than guys like Chris Rock, or anyone else who shows irreverance to PCism.

Where has Limbaugh said he hates or dislikes blacks?

Personally, I think that Rik makes the good point.

Rick does make a good point. It was stupid for Limbaugh to bring politics into a football discussion.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Tony


I dont think he has shown a penchant for racism, no more than guys like Chris Rock, or anyone else who shows irreverance to PCism.




exactly

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony

You guys are just hounding Rush because he is a propagandist you dont like, typical really. Wait a minute. If someone is spreading propaganda that I am fundamentally opposed to, you're saying it is wrong for me to speak out against that person and their propaganda? You're doing the exact same thing.

You asked me to provide remarks that show Rush as racist, which I did, thus disproving your "strawman" comment. Don't attack me because I gave you what you asked for.

[KelvinG]

In the hands of a more sophisticated talk show host this topic might actually be debated in a civil and rational manner.
Personally, I don't have a problem with such topics being explored.
I'm not sure of RL's exact wording, but I think if he had any common sense he should have said "Do you think it's possible that Donavan McNabb is overrated because he's black?" and then opened a discussion with that premise in mind.
Of course, because he's Rush Limbaugh he had to say "I think McNabb is overrated because he's black" (or the gist of that).

Is it wrong that he has to resign because of those comments? Perhaps. I'm not going to say that I totally support his resignation because I think it contributes to an environment where risque topics are avoided because of such possible repercussions.
But if it wasn't RL, the topic might have been tackled with a bit more class. As it is, the fat boob is dead in the water.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Wait a minute. If someone is spreading propaganda that I am fundamentally opposed to, you're saying it is wrong for me to speak out against that person and their propaganda? You're doing the exact same thing.


I never said it was wrong, I was stating fact. If Rush was a left wing propagandist like Al Franken, then you would defending him.

You asked me to provide remarks that show Rush as racist, which I did, thus disproving your "strawman" comment..

You have yet to prove he is racist. You're just letting your bias cloud your thinking. So much for skepticism.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony

Where has Limbaugh said he hates or dislikes blacks? ahem (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870118785#post1870118785)

[Tony]

Originally posted by KelvinG
In the hands of a more sophisticated talk show host this topic might actually be debated in a civil and rational manner.
Personally, I don't have a problem with such topics being explored.
I'm not sure of RL's exact wording, but I think if he had any common sense he should have said "Do you think it's possible that Donavan McNabb is overrated because he's black?" and then opened a discussion with that premise in mind.
Of course, because he's Rush Limbaugh he had to say "I think McNabb is overrated because he's black" (or the gist of that).

Is it wrong that he has to resign because of those comments? Perhaps. I'm not going to say that I totally support his resignation because I think it contributes to an environment where risque topics are avoided because of such possible repercussions.
But if it wasn't RL, the topic might have been tackled with a bit more class. As it is, the fat boob is dead in the water.

Thank you Kevin, we needed that injection of logic.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Upchurch
ahem (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870118785#post1870118785)

That's all you've got Upchuck? Its sad someone actually took the time to compile that. Sadder still that you propose it as evidence of anything other than the guy who put it together lacking a real life.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony

You have yet to prove he is racist.
"Take that bone out of your nose..."
"They are 12 percent of the population. Who the hell cares?"
You're just letting your bias cloud your thinking. So much for skepticism. :id:

[Cain]

Oh this is just f*cking great.

Corplinx accusing me of ad hominems and "degrading the conversation." Tony accusing others of "strawmen" (there's that word again). And NTW out-doing both of them by railing against the 2004 Democratic Party Machine.

Corp-- it's not an "ad hominem." An ad hominem is a personal attack in place of argument. To be more precise, it's argument by attacking the person. No, what I posted was a conclusion. Re-read the two criteria originally posted to establish Limbaugh's claims. Besides that, El Rushbo has a history with these sort of comments. Those inflammatory remarks have been posted and reposted.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Upchurch
ahem (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870118785#post1870118785)

You must be seeing things, in none of those quotes does Rush say he dislikes or hates blacks.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

if Rush is a racist for the things he is saying, then so is Chris Rock.

case closed.

[nightwind]

Limbaugh "quitting" is fine with me. If he didn't deserve it for this, then he deserved if for some of the other outlandish stuff that he says. Free speech or not, this guy crosses the line too much.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony

You must be seeing things, in none of those quotes does Rush say he dislikes or hates blacks. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that Rush made insulting and disparaging comments about people he likes. My bad.

[HarryKeogh]

poll figures accurate at time of this post:

according to foxnews.com's latest online poll

13% say he should have resigned

according to cnn.com's latest online poll

44% say he should have resigned

i thought the variation was interesting (though hardly surprising)

[Tony]

Originally posted by Upchurch

"Take that bone out of your nose..."
"They are 12 percent of the population. Who the hell cares?"


More strawman.

I guess making jokes about the sacred minority is racism, but making jokes about whites isnt. The usual double standard.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that Rush made insulting and disparaging comments about people he likes. My bad.

Everyone makes mistakes, I can forgive you this time.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony


Everyone makes mistakes, I can forgive you this time. :rub:

[Tony]

Originally posted by Upchurch
:rub:

Really, I make disparaging and insulting comments to people I like all the time, and Im not a shock jock, too bad.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony


Really, I make disparaging and insulting comments to people I like all the time, and Im not a shock jock, too bad. Tony,

Do you honestly not see the difference between joking around with your friends and insulting whole groups of people, like the East St. Louis "nobodies", or trying to discredit specific people because of the color of their skin, like comparing Moseley-Braun to "The Jeffersons"?

[Skeptic]

I think Rush tends to complicate issues which are not complex. I also am a football fan. Do I think McNab is overrated? It's possible to hold this opinion without being racist.

So, IMHO, calling McNab overrated after 4 games is pretty weak logic. Stupid even for a sports analyst...but even for a mere fan it's lame. Then, taking his first assertion as gospel...he goes on to blame it on the "liberal media conspiracy" and bases the whole thing on race. Now that's just plain old woo-wooism.

If he'd have just claimed McNab was overrated he would have had an arguable point. The rest of it just showed a penchant for knee-jerk political and racial bias.

It's even more than that. Most sport slumps and streaks, statistics show, are merely due to random clumping. It is EXCPECTED that McNair would have a four-game slump SOMETIME in his career. Sports commentary is, in a large part, finding fictional reasons to "explain" streaks and slumps that require no more explanation than "it's random", much like one could try to "explain" why a die landed "6" three times in a row once in a while. Ever noticed that none of these sports "experts", so good in "explaining" what HAPPENED last week, do better than random chance when they predict what WILL HAPPEN next week?

So what fictional reason do you get? That is a social thing, which depends on what kind of person the commentator is. From the "well-informed" sports commentators, you get an "explanation" in the form of a long list of nonsense on the "team's spirit" or their "special relation with the coach". From the bleechers' bum, you get the "explanation" that is so-and-so's fault, the one player (or coach) who is the cause of all the team's woes. And from Rush Limbaugh, you get the "explanation" that it is the "liberal media" fault for "protecting" the unqualified darkie who shouldn't be playing instead of a white man in the first place.

What a surprise, eh? Good riddance to Rush, too.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Upchurch

Do you honestly not see the difference between joking around with your friends and insulting whole groups of people

Not really, irreverence is irreverence. Rush was/is a shock jock, such things are to be expected.

or trying to discredit specific people because of the color of their skin, like comparing Moseley-Braun to "The Jeffersons"?

So I guess when he makes fun of Tom Dachele(sp?) it is because of race too?

[Michael Redman]

What evidence is there that the supposed overrating of McNabb is due to the color of his skin? None, of course. McNabb's skin color has not been an issue with the media, like it might have been back when black quarterbacks were a novelty in the NFL. The issue of the ability of black quarterbacks has been retired in the NFL. It’s old news to the media.

But the issue of color isn't old news with Rush. He assumes a black quarterback is inherently inferior, and therefore any elevating of a black quarterback to an elite level must be due to some factor other than his play. No one can look at McNabb's last couple of seasons, without bias, and conclude anything other than he is one of the elite quarterbacks in the NFL. Take a look at where he was picked in fantasy football drafts this year (1st or 2nd QB in most leagues). Are these people betting money on him because he’s black? Or is it because they think he’s about the best there is out there, based on recent performance? He was #1 on my list, and with $1000 on the line, I don't care if he's black, white, gay, female, or blind. I assumed he could replicate the amazing success he's had in receny years, and I don't base that on the media spin, but on the raw numbers.

When someone says that an elite player is actually overrated because of the color of his skin, it isn’t too much of a stretch to conclude that that person underrates the player due to the color of his skin. Rush is a racist. The arguments that he is not really racist boil down to arguing that the word "racist" doesn't really mean what people think it means, or that there isn't anything wrong with racism.

Racist or not, Rush is a complete idiot when it comes to football, anyway. The program is going to be better without him.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Michael Redman

When someone says that an elite player is actually overrated because of the color of his skin, it isn’t too much of a stretch to conclude that that person underrates the player due to the color of his skin. Rush is a racist.



Its funny how fast skepticism gets trashed when you have the opportunity to accuse someone you hate of racism.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony

Rush was/is a shock jock, such things are to be expected.expected, perhaps, but should such things be accepted?
So I guess when he makes fun of Tom Dachele(sp?) it is because of race too? I dunno. Does Rush play the theme song from "Leave it to Beaver" or refer to Tom Daschle's inability to dance while doing it?

edited to fix typo

[c0rbin]

Its funny how fast skepticism gets trashed when you have the opportunity to accuse someone you hate of racism.

Address the argument Redman makes, Tony. Your reply doesn't even begin to make sense, if racism is a factor.

Some claim it is and some claim it isn't.

You have already claimed it is. So please follow through with your statement by tying into Redman's point.

[Tmy]

Whats funny is how all these bigots who are rushing to Rushs side were the same people who crucified the Dixe Chicks.

Liek teh chicks , Rush is a fool. He shouldve known better he workls in the biz. He already has the rep of being a bigot,, theres no way ESPN can stand for that nonsence. He brought in race from left field, with noting to support his allegations. Sure the press has their favorites, Bret Farve comes to mind. But it woule be uncalled for for an analyst to say "Bret Farve gets a pass cause he's a good old boy hillbilly."

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
if Rush is a racist for the things he is saying, then so is Chris Rock.

Is it really possible that you and Tony cannot tell the difference between things said during a comedy performance and things said in a serious discussion?

I guess that means that Carol O'Conner was a racist, because while playing Archie Bunker, he made lots of bigoted comments.

[Blue Monk]

Originally posted by Evolver


And Clinton DIDN'T have sex with Monica.:wink8:

Don't be silly.

It means he was RIGHT to have sex with Monica.

[rikzilla]

Well,...

IMHO racism is the evil KKK guy preaching irrational hatred. There are plenty of nuts looking forward to RAHOWA...plenty who want to kill white folks for interracial sex/marriage...what are we to call THESE idiots if we must all chant "RACIST!!" at a guy like Rush Limbaugh?

Rush is biased and prejudiced...sure...but does that rise to the level of neo-Nazi hatred?? I don't think so.

I don't think I'm trying to re-invent the meaning of racism....I am merely trying to stop the re-invention/overuse of the term. Sooner or later the label RACIST is going to become banal and meaningless. Lets reserve it for those who truly deserve it....and there's plenty who do BTW.

-z

racism

n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

[JamesM]

Originally posted by rikzilla
I don't think I'm trying to re-invent the meaning of racism....I am merely trying to stop the re-invention/overuse of the term. Sooner or later the label RACIST is going to become banal and meaningless. Lets reserve it for those who truly deserve it....and there's plenty who do BTW.
Speaking of which, would you mind clarifying your reference to gypsies/'pikeys' that you made in this (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870109938#post1870109938) post?

[corplinx]

The only racism I see in the "great white hope" type coverage the sports press runs about athletes in roles where their skin color in in the minority. If you guys think what Rush said on the other hand is racist, then it says something really sad about the blinders people choose to wear depending on the speaker and the cognitive dissonance people will stoop to.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Upchurch
expected, perhaps, but should such things be accepted?


I dont mind them.

I dunno. Does Rush play the theme song from "Leave it to Beaver" or refer to Tom Daschle's inability to dance while doing it?

No, but if you've ever listened to Rush 24/7 (his internet broadcast) you would hear a funny and potentially insulting parody of the "Tom Daschle Show".

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky

Is it really possible that you and Tony cannot tell the difference between things said during a comedy performance and things said in a serious discussion?


What evidence do you have that those quotes attributed to Rush were made in a serious discussion? Remember, he used to be, and to a certain extent, still is a shock jock. Have you ever listened to his show? He does parodies and imitations all the time.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tmy
Whats funny is how all these bigots who are rushing to Rushs side were the same people who crucified the Dixe Chicks.


Who are you talking about? :con2:

[Tony]

Originally posted by c0rbin


Address the argument Redman makes, Tony. Your reply doesn't even begin to make sense, if racism is a factor.

Some claim it is and some claim it isn't.

You have already claimed it is. So please follow through with your statement by tying into Redman's point.

Huh?

I never claimed racism was a factor. And I did address Redmans argument. Redman makes a giant leap of logic when calling rush a racist. He even admits it.

When someone says that an elite player is actually overrated because of the color of his skin, it isn’t too much of a stretch to conclude that that person underrates the player due to the color of his skin.

He is turning a cynical opinion into a racist opinion without any evidence.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Tmy
Whats funny is how all these bigots who are rushing to Rushs side were the same people who crucified the Dixe Chicks.


artists arent the only people intitled to free speech.



http://www.pabaah.com/modules/gallery/album/album01/dixiechickssticktoentertaining.gif

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by JamesM

Speaking of which, would you mind clarifying your reference to gypsies/'pikeys' that you made in this (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870109938#post1870109938) post?

Hey, I'm an American...what the hell do I know about Gypsies or Pikeys?? I was making a joke. Based on a very dim idea of what a pikey or gypsy is like (we don't have them over here) It's a fairly obvious joke as well, all I know about Pikeys I learned from that movie (Snatch). Perhaps a Brit could be taken to task as insensitive...etc.... Maybe it was in bad taste...but I can use the comedy defense. Rush, however, was dead serious.

-z


Click here, (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00003CXS2/102-8671497-7371352?v=glance&vi=contents#) then watch the "Snatch" trailer. Brad Pitt was awesome as "the Pikey"....Guy Ritchie rocks!

[Tony]

Speaking of..Are pikeys real? Was the way they were portrayed in "Snatch" close to reality? Do they really talk like that?

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by Tony
He is turning a cynical opinion into a racist opinion without any evidence. That's not true, of course. There is ample evidence of Rush's low opinion of minorities. I'm using Rush's history, his statement, and my knowledge of the facts, and of human behavior to infer that Rush is a racist. I don't have empirical evidence of his racist inner thoughts. I am expressing an opinion. I think Rush is a racist. And I feel that is it a perfectly reasonable, and well supported opinion.

Rikzilla, I totally agree that the label is way overused. However, I would feel comforable putting Rush up against and card carrying member of the Klan when it comes to bigotry.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Tony


Who are you talking about? :con2:

Here is a JREF example:

Originally posted by American on May 2, 2003
No, I will keep a grudge. And from now on Bruce Springsteen is the "4th Dixie Chick".

Afterall, we're talking about sombody whose song appeared on the Jerry McGuire soundtrack, set to lines like "You complete me", and "Shut up... you had me from hello!"

All their music sucks royally. They are four singing vaginas, nothing more.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Michael Redman
That's not true, of course. There is ample evidence of Rush's low opinion of minorities. I'm using Rush's history, his statement, and my knowledge of the facts, and of human behavior to infer that Rush is a racist. I don't have empirical evidence of his racist inner thoughts. I am expressing an opinion. I think Rush is a racist. And I feel that is it a perfectly reasonable, and well supported opinion.


You have a low standard for racism. Do you think people like Jesse Jackson and other black supremacists are racists too? Or is your standard for racism lower for white people?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Crossbow


Here is a JREF example:




Thanks.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony
You have a low standard for racism. Do you think people like Jesse Jackson and other black supremacists are racists too? Or is your standard for racism lower for white people?
Yeah, I think Jesse is prejudiced, but black supremacist? Do you have any evidence for this label?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky

Yeah, I think Jesse is prejudiced, but black supremacist? Do you have any evidence for this label?

Yes I do, his support of affirmative action, a program that elevates one race to the detriment of another. Sounds like supremacism to me.

[c0rbin]

Yes I do, his support of affirmative action, a program that elevates one race to the detriment of another. Sounds like supremacism to me.

Beware white america!

Black people want to be able to vote without having to worry if the water hoses are going to squirt them down the street!

[Tony]

Originally posted by c0rbin


Beware white america!

Black people want to be able to vote without having to worry if the water hoses are going to squirt them down the street!

This is the 00's not the 60's. Your sarcasm is 40 years behind the times.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony
Originally posted by Upchurch
I dunno. Does Rush play the theme song from "Leave it to Beaver" or refer to Tom Daschle's inability to dance while doing it?No, but if you've ever listened to Rush 24/7 (his internet broadcast) you would hear a funny and potentially insulting parody of the "Tom Daschle Show". I don't listen to Rush anymore, so I've never heard the parody. However, I take it that he bases the parody on Daschle's politics. By playing "The Jeffersons" in reference to Moseley-Braun, he is paroding\mocking\whatever at least part of his message on the fact that Moseley-Braun is black rather than on her politics.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Upchurch
No, but if you've ever listened to Rush 24/7 (his internet broadcast) you would hear a funny and potentially insulting parody of the "Tom Daschle Show". I don't listen to Rush anymore, so I've never heard the parody. However, I take it that he bases the parody on Daschle's politics. By playing "The Jeffersons" in reference to Moseley-Braun, he is paroding\mocking\whatever at least part of his message on the fact that Moseley-Braun is black rather than on her politics. [/QUOTE]

Perhaps you are right about that.

but..

People like her and other "minorities" don’t run on politics, they intentionally elevate the fact that they are a "minority" in the hope that it will get them votes. If someone is using their status as a “minority” while running for office, they should expect to have that attacked. I would expect the same treatment for a white guy using the fact that he is white as a campaign strategy.

[c0rbin]

I would think that black a candidate for office would be a fool not to use the fact that they are black to gain votes or funding.

White people use their connections to do so all the time. Those are the advantages that white people have--generations of connections and access to opportunity.

I think any black person who is eligble and able to run for a public office is a walking monument to what this country can be.

To come from generations of poverty and forced ignorance to gain such a social position is laudable

The fact that their recent ancestors (likely their parents a scant 40 years ago) had to suffer the indignity of America's racism and still they rise to the occasion is worthy of celebration.

Tony, why would you resent such a celebration?

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Tony
People like her and other "minorities" don’t run on politics, they intentionally elevate the fact that they are a "minority" in the hope that it will get them votes. If someone is using their status as a “minority” while running for office, they should expect to have that attacked. I would expect the same treatment for a white guy using the fact that he is white as a campaign strategy. Does she though?

Googling for her website (http://www.moseley-braun.org/content.php?page=home), I see more emphesis on her being a woman than on her being black. i.e. this press release (http://www.moseley-braun.org/content.php?page=newsroom_presser9) or the number of African-American (http://www.moseley-braun.org/content.php?page=links#african) links (9) vs. Women (http://www.moseley-braun.org/content.php?page=links#women) links (49) on her site.

Yes, I realize women also have "minority" status (why still confounds me), but if Moseley-Braun puts more emphesis in her being a woman, does Rush parody that as well or does he only parody her being black?

[Tony]

Originally posted by c0rbin
I would think that black a candidate for office would be a fool not to use the fact that they are black to gain votes or funding.


So you excuse racism for one group but not for the other?

White people use their connections to do so all the time. Those are the advantages that white people have--generations of connections and access to opportunity.

This is a myth. I dont have generations of connections and oppurtunity and I bet most white people dont either.

Besides, its not the same thing.

I think any black person who is eligble and able to run for a public office is a walking monument to what this country can be.

It doesnt matter one way or the other to me.

Tony, why would you resent such a celebration?

Why do you assume I do?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Tony


Yes I do, his support of affirmative action, a program that elevates one race to the detriment of another. Sounds like supremacism to me.
Then you have a very odd definition of supremism. A racial supremist would claim that one race is inherently better than another. I have never heard Jesse Jackson say anything even vaguely like that. If anything, affirmative action (as it applies to blacks) says that blacks are admittedly less qualified than whites, but that they deserve a break because of historical circumstances. Debatably, that may be considered deliberate prejudice, but it is the opposite of supremism.

I suspect you just like the sound of "Black supremist", rather than having thought it through. It makes them sound so evil.

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by Tony
You have a low standard for racism. Do you think people like Jesse Jackson and other black supremacists are racists too? Or is your standard for racism lower for white people? Any person who thinks members of one racial group are inherently better than those of another is a racist. That's not a low standard.

Rush is an idiot. The more I think about this, the more I think he was just looking for an excuse to get into racial politics, and he's too ignorant to spot the right opportunity. McNabb is currently getting plenty of criticism for a couple of bad games, despite the fact that he has established himself in recent years to be one of the best. It's not like he has anyone to throw to, or to run, or to block. It's all him. They've assembled a crappy offense around him, and he gets the blame. It would be much easier to defend the statement that he was being underrated by the media because he's black. Still wrong, but at least the argument wouldn't look so stupid.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Tricky

Then you have a very odd definition of supremism. A racial supremist would claim that one race is inherently better than another. If anything, affirmative action (as it applies to blacks) says that blacks are admittedly less qualified than whites, but that they deserve a break because of historical circumstances. Debatably, that may be considered deliberate prejudice, but it is the opposite of supremism.


Thats clever spin, I gotta give you props on that.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Michael Redman
Any person who thinks members of one racial group are inherently better than those of another is a racist. That's not a low standard.


I dont disagree, but you have yet to prove Rush thinks like that.

Rush is an idiot. The more I think about this, the more I think he was just looking for an excuse to get into racial politics, and he's too ignorant to spot the right opportunity. McNabb is currently getting plenty of criticism for a couple of bad games, despite the fact that he has established himself in recent years to be one of the best. It's not like he has anyone to throw to, or to run, or to block. It's all him. They've assembled a crappy offense around him, and he gets the blame. It would be much easier to defend the statement that he was being underrated by the media because he's black. Still wrong, but at least the argument wouldn't look so stupid.

Good point. (about Rush, I dont know anything about McNabb)

[hgc]

Originally posted by Michael Redman
...

Rush is an idiot. The more I think about this, the more I think he was just looking for an excuse to get into racial politics, and he's too ignorant to spot the right opportunity. ...You have just cut to the heart of the issue. Rush is obsessed with racial politics, and doesn't have enough sense to realize that this wasn't the platform to indulge this particular obsession. If he would only stick to talking about football, which is ostensibly what he was hired to do, then he'd be fine.

[crackmonkey]

I barely know a thing about football, but wasn't one of the teams fined for hiring a white coach without interviewing several black candidates? If so, Rush was correct in that race is a factor in the NFL. I don't know a thing about the player, so I can't comment on whether he's overrated or give an opinion as to why. If the team was fined for hiring a white coach, then Rush's scenario is certainly plausible.

[Furious]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,92951,00.html

It was the Detroit Lions.

Basically, they had already decided to hire Steve Mariucci, but NFL regulations require that at least one minority candidate must be interviewed unless the coach is promoted from within the current organization.

Even though they contacted five minority coaches for an interview, they all declined, as it was obvious who was going to get the position. Since they didn't technically interview a minority, they were hit with the fine.

EDITED TO ADD:

So yes, if Steve Mariucci had been a minority, they would not have gotten fined.

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by Tony
I dont disagree, but you have yet to prove Rush thinks like that.To prove it to you, perhaps, but that was never my concern. If he thinks otherwise, he's intentionally mislead us all as to his real nature. I don't care what he really thinks. He walks like a racist, and talks like a racist. That's good enough for me.


Crackmonkey - Yes, race is considered by the NFL in that circumstance. The NFL wants teams to interview minority coaches as a sort of affirmative action, due to a tradition of never considering minority coaches for head coaching jobs. They don't have to hire them, they just have to invite them in and interview them. They're just trying to impose a little exposure of minority candidates on NFL teams, for the potential benefit of both. Or so the theory goes. The rule has it's problems, as evidenced by the Detroit situation, but this certainly isn't a situation where the NFL is claiming that minorities are better than they reall are for some reason. They're just helping them get a foot in the door. After that, it's up to them. There is no requirement that they get hired.

The NFL wants minority coaches to have better access to head coaching jobs. The NFL also has an interest in countering the old myth that only white guys could successfully play quarterback. Guys like McNabb, Culpepper, and Vick shatter that myth, not by being overrated by the media, but by being among the best quarterbacks playing the game. Players are evaluated on statistics, and no amount of wanting certain people to succeed is going to complete passes or score touchdowns.

Why would a media bent on unfairly promoting the black quarterback be so harsh on Kordell Stewart and Tony Banks? Every good game Banks has is written off as a fluke, and the Cardinals' decision to go into the season with him as their quarterback was declared to be an admission of mediocrity, and a season over before it started. Wouldn't the media, in Rush's world, be hyping the rebirth of the team, not that perpetual (white) loser Jake plummer was gone, and a truely gifted (black) quarterback was in town?

Everyone on earth may want to see McNabb do well. However, no amount of wishing will make it so. He's done well because he's good.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Tony


More strawman.

I guess making jokes about the sacred minority is racism, but making jokes about whites isnt. The usual double standard.

Sad but true

[nightwind]

Now it looks as though the "liberal media" may have also made Rush use drugs illegally.

[New Ager]

(Michael Redman)

Players are evaluated on statistics, and no amount of wanting certain people to succeed is going to complete passes or score touchdowns.

Why would a media bent on unfairly promoting the black quarterback be so harsh on Kordell Stewart and Tony Banks?

(New Ager)

I think you just answered your own question. It's impossible to have any credibility to do it with Stewart or Banks, but with McNabb(who is a very good QB, but not a great one) it's possible to fudge a little.

[New Ager]

I have listened to Rush for years and I have never heard him make a racist comment.

The Jefferson's theme song for Carol Moseley Braun was a parody. If it's good enough for the Jefferson's how come it's not good enough for Braun?

All the other examples of so-called racists comments smack of political correctness and the liberal's big desire to shut Rush up. It hasn't worked so far, and I doubt it will in the future.

By the way, Rush really likes Condaleeza Rice, Colin Powell, and other black leaders and personalities.

Maybe Rush's only bias is against liberals which is a very smart way to be.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Tricky

Is it really possible that you and Tony cannot tell the difference between things said during a comedy performance and things said in a serious discussion?

I guess that means that Carol O'Conner was a racist, because while playing Archie Bunker, he made lots of bigoted comments.

The real question is, how much is Rush on the air, and how much is the acting he gets paid for?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by hammegk
The real question is, how much is Rush on the air, and how much is the acting he gets paid for?
That's interesting because I have always believed that Rush wasn't really the right-wing firebrand that he plays on his talk show, but just a good actor who was milking that segment of the population. But to see him make a bone-headed statement like that on ESPN, damaging or destroying his long-desired path to credibility, makes me reassess my evaluation of him. Perhaps it was just a bit of his "bad boy" persona that leaked out at the wrong time (was it the drugs? ;) ) or maybe he really is a wild-eyed right wing bigot.

In any case, O'Connor was obviously playing a character (one with a different name from himself). Rush is at least pretending that he is really like that, so even if deep down he is just acting, I have to condem the full-time role he is playing.

[Ziggurat]

What I kind of find interesting in this debate is that I haven't seen Rush's defenders are making any claims that he was actually any good as a sports analyst. ESPN didn't hire him because he knows what the hell he's talking about, they hired him because they thought his controvertial persona would increase ratings, and it did. But I haven't heard anyone argue seriously that he was actually any good at the job. Then he goes and makes a statement that pissed off a lot of people. Was it racist? I think so, but that's not the only question here. The fact remains that it angered a lot of people, both players and viewers. ESPN knew that was likely to happen when they hired Rush, but they simply didn't care about the possibility of offending viewers, and they didn't care about actually providing first-rate sports analysis. They only cared about ratings. ESPN is, in my opinion, the real villain here, for selling out their core audience for a few bucks.

[New Ager]

Okay...Rush was really good on ESPN!!!

He's very knowledgeable about sports and it showed. I guess you detractors don't listen to his radio show or haven't seen him on ESPN.

Rush didn't say anything racist and it's laughable that any of you would think so.

So, Rush said something controversial about the media. Big deal. The media is heavily biased in a lot of ways and many seem to be unconcerned about that.

I guess freedom of speech only applies to liberals.

[DavidJames]

Rush quit! He made some comments that some people found offensive. Reporters say crap about things and people all the time, why didn't he fight back instead of running away. Please spare me the whining about the way he's being treated. If he's got any guts he would have stood up and fought for his beliefs, backed up his comments with facts and quotes instead of cowardly running away.

[Lurker]

Originally posted by New Ager
I guess freedom of speech only applies to liberals.

Let's see. I observe that you are freely speaking here. You MUST be a liberal.

right?

Lurker

[corplinx]

Originally posted by DavidJames
Rush quit! He made some comments that some people found offensive. Reporters say crap about things and people all the time, why didn't he fight back instead of running away. Please spare me the whining about the way he's being treated. If he's got any guts he would have stood up and fought for his beliefs, backed up his comments with facts and quotes instead of cowardly running away.

I think thats kinda naive. It was probably a situation where he had the choice of resign or be fired.



By the way, does anyone know if he responded to the drug accusations on his show today? I think the real wus thing is if he gives some kinda "my lawyers won't allow me to talk about it" answer.

[corplinx]

I never though I'd see the day:

the slate stands up for Rush Limbaugh (http://slate.msn.com/id/2089193/)

I guess now that he has already quit, people who agree with him will finally come forward.


Still though, the Slate standing up for Rush? Someone check Hell for icy conditions.

[hgc]

Originally posted by DavidJames
Rush quit! He made some comments that some people found offensive. Reporters say crap about things and people all the time, why didn't he fight back instead of running away. Please spare me the whining about the way he's being treated. If he's got any guts he would have stood up and fought for his beliefs, backed up his comments with facts and quotes instead of cowardly running away. That's what I would have thought he would have done (except for the backing it up with facts part). ESPN started out being very supportive of Rush, and then changed on a dime, no? I think he quit when he found out that his drug habit was about to become public knowledge.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by corplinx

I think thats kinda naive. It was probably a situation where he had the choice of resign or be fired.
I agree. It is possible that ESPN might "reassign" him, but unlikely. It is also possible that they might have said "you can keep your job if you publicly grovel." But I don't think anyone really thinks this decision came from Rush.

Originally posted by corplinx
By the way, does anyone know if he responded to the drug accusations on his show today? I think the real wus thing is if he gives some kinda "my lawyers won't allow me to talk about it" answer.
Although I rarely listen to Rush, if he says anything at all it will probably be a bombastic denial and accusation of the "liberal media".

But you know, even if it turns out to be true, I wouldn't dislike Rush for having the misfortune to get hooked on pain killers. I would pity him. I have lots better reasons to dislike him than a simple human failing.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Tricky


Although I rarely listen to Rush, if he says anything at all it will probably be a bombastic denial and accusation of the "liberal media".



He wound up doing a 500 word version of "no comment". The transcript is on his web site.

My guess is, since its a Friday he is probably waiting until Monday to address it. Sort of a "time out". Makes sense.

However, is this the courage his fans expect from "America's Truth Detector" ?

[Ziggurat]

Originally posted by New Ager

I guess freedom of speech only applies to liberals.

I'm amused that you try to claim this as a freedom of speach issue. Freedom of speach is an issue of how government interacts with citizens. This is a completely private (as in non-governmental) matter, the government hasn't been involved in any way, shape or form. ESPN is free to hire and fire as they choose, Rush is free to resign if he chooses, advertisers are free to apply pressure as they choose. Freedom of speach simply does not apply here. But hey, when you're short on justification, anything will do, even if it's irrelevant.

[DavidJames]

"I think thats kinda naive. It was probably a situation where he had the choice of resign or be fired."

He may have been given such a choice and would have served himself and his supportors by saying such. Of course you might say keeping his mouth shut was in his contract or other such excuses, but I stand by my comments. If he was pressured or contractually not allowed to comment he can say as much.

But that doesn't address the fact that, as of yet, he has failed to back up his claims. My opinion on him has further solidified. He's a opinionated blow hard (which in itself I have no problems with) who make claims he cannot backup with facts - that's the part that gets to me.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Ziggurat

Freedom of speach is an issue of how government interacts with citizens.


That's what I say everytime someone claims that the Dixie Chicks, Tim Robbins, or someone like that has had their free speech impeded.

Hey wait, maybe he meant that people who defend the dixie chicks yet jump on Rush might be acting inconsistent? You think?

[Ziggurat]

Originally posted by corplinx

That's what I say everytime someone claims that the Dixie Chicks, Tim Robbins, or someone like that has had their free speech impeded.

Hey wait, maybe he meant that people who defend the dixie chicks yet jump on Rush might be acting inconsistent? You think?

Rush's statement and the Dixie Chicks statement are not the same, and that's not just a matter of which you find offensive or not. The statement from the Dixie Chicks was made on their own time, while Rush said his offending statement as part of his job. So it's quite distasteful for radio stations to punish the Dixie Chicks for a statement not directly connected to the radio stations, but it's quite reasonable for ESPN to have a role in the response to statements Rush made as part of his job there. The two situations are very different, but yes, it wasn't exactly a free speach issue with the Dixie Chicks, it was something else (though again, still distateful).

[Lurker]

corplinx:

Yes, Rush's "no comment" concerns me. I seriously doubt if he were innocent he would not have said more. It is like he is waiting to see what the authorities have on him, hoping they don't have enought to get him.

If he were innocent I think he would have been trumpeting it immediately. Why open your mouth and possibly say something stupid before you find out what other people know about you? Rush is playing it cagey.

Lurker

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Lurker
Rush is playing it cagey.

Lurker

No doubt. My guess at this point is that he probably did develop a mean oxycontin habit.

Him doing a no-comment might be related to the enquirer story and the fact that federal authorities may be investigating him.

Why would federal authorities investigate a user after all?

Mind you, if Limbaugh had been busted at any time with as many pills as he was supposedly taking then the charge would be possession with intent to sell (or the two joints and you're out law as I like to call it). My father was once busted for about as much xanax as Limbaugh had oxycontin.

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by New Ager
Okay...Rush was really good on ESPN!!!

He's very knowledgeable about sports and it showed. I guess you detractors don't listen to his radio show or haven't seen him on ESPN. Rush sucked. He was a detriment to the show. They should have fired him after week 1. All he did was say strange and stupid things to incite the other guys into arguing with him. His analysis was childish and offensive. Just because a guy takes a decisive contrarian position and defends it vigorously doesn’t mean he knows what he's talking about. ESPN might very well have turned on him so fast because they figured it would be a good way to get out of their failed experiment.

Rush always flames out when he ventures into a setting where people have the opportunity to challenge him on the spot.

[Blue Monk]

Even though I do not like Rush I do not begrudge him not making a comment.

Even if you are 100% innocent it is always a good idea to keep your mouth shut and I would not be a bit surprised if this was not exactly the advice given to him by his attorneys.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

A little more from the "unbiased" press:

"Am I delighted to see Rush Limbaugh attacked, ridiculed and forced out of his ESPN gig? Absolutely. Justice is being served," said Dick Meyer, editorial director at CBSNews.com.

[DavidJames]

"A little more from the "unbiased" press:"

It's an opinion piece, do you think opinions should not be voiced in the media? Did you read the article? Well written and I agree with him.

Quotes from the article you won't see in NTW's posts:

"Limbaugh has a right to speak his piece"
"Do I think they were offensive? Mildly, not profoundly."
"Do I like it when the thought police, the language cops and the political correctness enforcers pounce on an utterance and declare it illegal? No, I hate it. "

[Nie Trink Wasser]

[i]Originally posted by DavidJames [/i

"Limbaugh has a right to speak his piece"
"Do I think they were offensive? Mildly, not profoundly."
"Do I like it when the thought police, the language cops and the political correctness enforcers pounce on an utterance and declare it illegal? No, I hate it. " [/B]

cool thanks.

can you post the link to the story ?

[DavidJames]

"can you post the link to the story ?"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/opinion/meyer/main576291.shtml

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Tricky

....to see him make a bone-headed statement like that on ESPN, damaging or destroying his long-desired path to credibility, ..........maybe he really is a wild-eyed right wing bigot.



What do you think his core radio audience wants him to be? He just picked up another few hundred thousand radio listeners (from ESPN) who didn't even know he existed -- and agree fully with the racist spin of his comment.

[peptoabysmal]

I never really got the point of making Rush a sportscaster to begin with.

It would be like making Howard Dean the narrator of one of those early morning hunting or fishing programs.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by hammegk

What do you think his core radio audience wants him to be? He just picked up another few hundred thousand radio listeners (from ESPN) who didn't even know he existed -- and agree fully with the racist spin of his comment.
I have a hard time believing that he gave up a national TV audience in order to ingratiate himself with people who had never heard of his radio show but now might possibly tune in. If this were trigonometry, I'd call that arc-smart, the inverse function of intelligent.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Tricky

I have a hard time believing that he gave up a national TV audience in order to ingratiate himself with people who had never heard of his radio show but now might possibly tune in. If this were trigonometry, I'd call that arc-smart, the inverse function of intelligent.

Where is the arc in arc smart? :wink8:

[crackmonkey]

Back to football... I heard that McNabb's statistics were pretty mediocre. The Eagles' offense was never very impressive with him at the helm, and the defense carried the team. Statistically, McNabb was definitely in the second tier of quarterbacks in the league.
With this in mind, and seeing the NFL's admittedly affirmative-action stance in regard to coaching (at the very least), I think Rush has a case.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
Back to football... I heard that McNabb's statistics were pretty mediocre. The Eagles' offense was never very impressive with him at the helm, and the defense carried the team. Statistically, McNabb was definitely in the second tier of quarterbacks in the league.
With this in mind, and seeing the NFL's admittedly affirmative-action stance in regard to coaching (at the very least), I think Rush has a case.
That might be so if it weren't for the reality that few, if any serious football fans put McNabb in the first tier anyway. I never heard him mentioned as one of the top quarterbacks in the league, or even one of the top black quaterbacks. This is all Limbaugh's fantasy, where blacks are given preferential treatment because of their race. McNabb is an okay quarterback on an occasionaly okay team. The only one who brought race into the picture was Rush, and he was deservedly quashed for it. His little strawman about how everybody rated McNabb highly is pitiful. I can name a dozen quarterbacks with more "buzz".

[Michael Redman]

McNabb has been, statistically if nothing else, one of the top few quarterbacks in the NFL over the last 3 years or so.

McNabb's 3 year average: 14 starts, 2962 yards passing, 21 TD, 10 Int. 524 yards rushing, 5 TD. The NFL's fantasy football site says, "McNabb is arguably the best all-around quarterback in Fantasy Football."

To compare, Peyton Manning: 16 starts, 4248 yd pass, 29 TD, 19 Int. 140 yd rush, 2 td.

Favre: 16 starts, 3797 yd pass, 26 TD, 16 int. 79 yd rush, 0 TD.

Gannon: 16 starts, 3982 yd pass, 27 TD, 10 int. 304 yd rush, 3 TD.

What these other quarterbacks had that McNabb didn't is legitimate NFL quality starting players at the complimentary skill positions. He is not overrated.

The NFL's coaching policy is not "affirmative action" because they do not promote the hiring of lesser qualified coaches on account of race. They are simply trying to get qualified minority coaches into the pool of potential hires by exposing them to team executives. They are certainly doing nothing that might potentially cause a team to suffer in quality by hiring a less qualified candidate.

Besides, even if it were true that the coach interview policy was affirmative action, what does that have to do with the players? If the NFL is engaged in affirmative action at the quarterback position, where's the mechanism that causes teams to play less qualified players? Is it a secret conspiracy?

Besides, Rush was talking about the media. He seems to think that the Eagles play McNabb because the media wants to see him succeed. I guess they take their orders from the media.

And the media would hardly need McNabb to succeed to have a successful black quarterback. There are several excellent black quarterbacks in the league. Race is no longer a point of conversation when it comes to the position, as it was 15 or 20 years ago.

The entire thrust of Rush's comment is ridiculous. It only makes a sort of sense of you are ignorant of the facts, or if you share his view that blacks are not up to the challenge of playing quarterback in the NFL, and therefore any apparent success must be a creation of the liberal media.

[Suddenly]

[Absurd sarcasm]McNabb is definately overrated because he's black. Everyone knows the best quarterback playing right now is Steve McNair, but you never hear of him because he's whi..... wait a minute. [/Absurd Sarcasm]

Nevermind

McNabb plays for a good team in a major east-coast major market, and is a very successful quarterback.

Steve McNair is a slightly more successful quarterback with a team slightly more successful than McNabb's Eagles. But he plays in a small market.

Can you spot the difference that indicates why you hear more about one or the other?

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Tricky

I have a hard time believing that he gave up a national TV audience in order to ingratiate himself with people who had never heard of his radio show but now might possibly tune in. If this were trigonometry, I'd call that arc-smart, the inverse function of intelligent.

Could that be why he has a highly lucrative radio show & lives in a Palm Beach mansion? Do you?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by hammegk


Could that be why he has a highly lucrative radio show & lives in a Palm Beach mansion? Do you?
...and if that were enough for him, he would have not taken the ESPN job. It is no secret that Rush wanted to be the Monday Night Football color guy a few years ago when they gave the job to Dennis Miller instead. This was his chance for the breakthrough he obvioulsly wanted, and I doubt he intentionally sabotoged himself.