[Moderated]Val McClatchey's account destroys the Official Story

[TC329]

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_90823.html

Val McClatchey heard the 757 roar over Indian Lake, three miles east of where it would crash. She had been watching the "Today" show, with footage from New York, and now the Pentagon.


She looked out the window, above the red barns. She caught a glimpse of it, like light off a watch face. Then nothing, and then a boom that nearly knocked her off the couch.


The lights went out. The phones, too.


She grabbed her camera. She stepped onto the front porch and shot one frame of the smoke cloud, a charcoal puff in a pure blue sky.


That image — "End of Serenity," she called it — caught the essence of Somerset County that day. The barns, the blue sky, the open slope of pasture — it's a postcard, except for that fat, black cloud, swelling like a smoke signal, warning that something horrible has happened.


"I thought it was an accident," McClatchey says, a Time and a Newsweek and a Reader's Digest in the binder on the coffee table, the pages with her photo marked with Post-Its. "I thought it was a small plane. I figured they were just trying to get out of the air."


She didn't walk up that road, toward the hole in the tree line. She could hear the sirens; she knew it was bad. She didn't need to see.
She went into the kitchen and put on barbecue for the rescue crews.



When was Flight 93 over or coming from Indian Lake?

[DGM]

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_90823.html





When was Flight 93 over or coming from Indian Lake?
It didn't. She was mistaken. Anything else I can do for you today?


ETA Or the reporter misunderstood /misquoted her.

[Mr.Herbert]

She was in her house...do you live in a house? Trailer? Mom's basement?

I have planes flying near my house all the time. I don't know exactly what direction they are coming from.

Get a life.:boggled:

[TC329]

It didn't. She was mistaken. Anything else I can do for you today?


ETA Or the reporter misunderstood /misquoted her.



She looked out the window, above the red barns. She caught a glimpse of it, like light off a watch face.





ETA : I already had to report 3 out of the first 4 replies. You guys sure do have a way of making us look irrational.....lol

[Pardalis]

Please ignore the creep, he's only trying to defame madam McClatchey again.

A young man should try to do something else with his life than to constantly harrass an innocent woman.

For those who are new to this: http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2006/08/911_conspiracy.html

[TC329]

Please ignore the creep, he's only trying to defame madam McClatchey again.

A young man should try to do something else with his life than to constantly harrass an innocent woman.

For those who are new to this: http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2006/08/911_conspiracy.html

I'm not harassing Mrs. McClatchey. Do you have some evidence to support your claim?

I actually am supporting her on her account.

I have made no mention of her photo nor will I in this thread.

[defaultdotxbe]

i thought killtown already proved her entire story was a fabrication, how can lies destroy the official story? (not that its kept the truthers from trying for the past 6 years, lol)

[DGM]

She looked out the window, above the red barns. She caught a glimpse of it, like light off a watch face.





ETA : I already had to report 3 out of the first 4 replies. You guys sure do have a way of making us look irrational.....lol
It was coming almost straight down. She caught a glimpse of it. She didn't see it over the lake did she?

[Arus808]

you do know that she doesn't believe in the conspiracy theories surrounding 911 and believes what happened in shanksville, as described by the numerous people who were there to do teh clean up and investigation, is what happened.

you and killtown are both disgusting to use this woman's accounts of that chaotic day, and think that it supports anything you claim.

[TC329]

It was coming almost straight down. She caught a glimpse of it. She didn't see it over the lake did she?


If she didn't hear it fly over her then how did she know to go look outside the window before the crash especially if the plane was diving from 10,000 feet nearly 2 miles northwest of her?

[applecorped]

Why are you asking us? We weren't their..and neither were you! Do you have anything substantial or do you just randomly quote people out of context and jump to conclusions? Oh....I think I just answered my own question.

[TC329]

i thought killtown already proved her entire story was a fabrication, how can lies destroy the official story? (not that its kept the truthers from trying for the past 6 years, lol)

this thread isn't about Killtown or The End of Serenity. This may be hard for the members here but please try to stay on topic.

[TC329]

Why are you asking us? We weren't their..and neither were you! Do you have anything substantial or do you just randomly quote people out of context and jump to conclusions? Oh....I think I just answered my own question.


Please show who I took out of context or how.

[defaultdotxbe]

this thread isn't about Killtown or The End of Serenity. This may be hard for the members here but please try to stay on topic.
im just trying to figure out which "truth" im supposed to believe today

[chillzero]

Due to the high number of reports from such a new thread, I am placing it on moderated status. If you are responding, keep it civil, on topic, and addressing a post - not the member posting.

[lapman]

If she didn't hear it fly over her then how did she know to go look outside the window before the crash especially if the plane was diving from 10,000 feet nearly 2 miles northwest of her?
You obviously have no idea what your talking about. There is no way for her to accurately place where the flight came from while hearing the sound as she sat on her couch. Over Indian Lake is where the sound SEEMED to come from. Like Mr. Herbert, I have planes flying over my house all the time since I live on the ILS final to a major airport. It's very easy to confuse the direction of the sound. Doors, windows, walls, etc. distort the cues your brain needs to tell direction.

[DGM]

If she didn't hear it fly over her then how did she know to go look outside the window before the crash especially if the plane was diving from 10,000 feet nearly 2 miles northwest of her?
I didn't ask about "hearing it" did I? I asked if she saw it fly over the lake. She didn't. She heard the plan from inside here house and then caught a "glimpse" of it over her barn. How does this support the "over the lake" theory?

[WildCat]

How is Val able to determine the location of an airplane just from the sound of it while she's watching TV in her house?

[TC329]

You obviously have no idea what your talking about. There is no way for her to accurately place where the flight came from while hearing the sound as she sat on her couch. Over Indian Lake is where the sound SEEMED to come from. Like Mr. Herbert, I have planes flying over my house all the time since I live on the ILS final to a major airport. It's very easy to confuse the direction of the sound. Doors, windows, walls, etc. distort the cues your brain needs to tell direction.

I don't know what problem you and Mr. Herbet have but I work right beside Pittsburgh Airport and The Fed Ex station and routinely for 10 hours a day have planes flying over my head every few minutes. I have never in the last 16 months had a problem distinguishing where that sound was originating from knew exactly where to look in the sky. I recommend you both have your ears evaluated.

[TC329]

I didn't ask about "hearing it" did I? I asked if she saw it fly over the lake. She didn't. She heard the plan from inside here house and then caught a "glimpse" of it over her barn. How does this support the "over the lake" theory?

No she didn't see the plane a mile behind her house. She heard it fly overhead and ran to look outside the window and saw it coming down. If it was never near her house there is no way she could have looked outside and saw it before it hit the ground as the official flight path places it a couple miles northwest of her house therefor the plane would crash long before she ever heard it.

[Pardalis]

I don't know what problem you and Mr. Herbet have but I work right beside Pittsburgh Airport and The Fed Ex station and routinely for 10 hours a day have planes flying over my head every few minutes. I have never in the last 16 months had a problem distinguishing where that sound was originating from knew exactly where to look in the sky. I recommend you both have your ears evaluated.

That's because you know where the planes go and come from.

I live under an airplane corridor too and as I got used to it because now I know where the planes are coming from, but when I first got here I couldn't tell with the sound reverberating everywhere.

Now could you explain why you felt it necessary to start a thread about this single witness' account?

Seems pretty trivial to me unless you have other motives.

[applecorped]

I don't know what problem you and Mr. Herbet have but I work right beside Pittsburgh Airport and The Fed Ex station and routinely for 10 hours a day have planes flying over my head every few minutes. I have never in the last 16 months had a problem distinguishing where that sound was originating from knew exactly where to look in the sky. I recommend you both have your ears evaluated.

She was 2 miles away.

[X]

The fact that it sounded like it was coming from over Indian Lake to Mz. McClatchey is meaningless with regard to the actual location of the aircraft. Sounds travel. They reflect, and reflect again.
Anyone who has ever heard an airliner flying when there has been low cloud cover (i.e. you cannot see the plane) knows how hard it is to accurately locate the plane. You can point up and say "there" and sometimes even get an approximate direction from you, but pointing out the exact location, as relayed by the sound? Next to impossible. The noise sounds indistuingishable over large patches of sky to human ears.

More telling would be what she saw "above the red barns", and described as being "like light off a watch face". This suggests, to me, a brief flash of reflected light.
The red barns are the interesting part. Where were they, relative to where she was standing?

Utimately, it's one witness. Granted,the only witness to capture a photograph of the crash, but still only one witness. It suggests that she witnessed a plane, sounding like an airliner, crash within a few miles of her house. Coincidentally enough, an the wreckage from an airliner was indeed found a few miles away from her house, and the location of the wreckage agreed with the location given by those monitoring the flight as well as other eyewitnesses.

I fail to see how this "destroys" the "Official Story".

[DGM]

No she didn't see the plane a mile behind her house. She heard it fly overhead and ran to look outside the window and saw it coming down. If it was never near her house there is no way she could have looked outside and saw it before it hit the ground as the official flight path places it a couple miles northwest of her house therefor the plane would crash long before she ever heard it.
That's not what she said.
From the article
She looked out the window, above the red barns. She caught a glimpse of it, like light off a watch face. Then nothing, and then a boom that nearly knocked her off the couch.

She looked out the window from her couch. (knocked her of the couch).

Are you making things up now?

[TC329]

She was 2 miles away.


How could she hear a plane 2 miles northwest of her house and look out the window in time to see it crash?

Do you realize how loud you are saying this 757 is if someone 2+ miles ahead of the flight path can hear it coming, right?

[VespaGuy]

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_90823.html

When was Flight 93 over or coming from Indian Lake?

You are absolutely correct, TC. The entire thing was a fabrication. You and a handful of others have cracked the case wide open.

I however will continue to live my life just as if 9/11 was carried out by terrorists and not a conspiracy, which is exactly how the world continues to move. Seeing that your conspiracy is indistinguishable from a real terror attack, I'll assume the real terror attack happened.

Although I still like to jump in to a debate from time to time, arguing foolish points like these with folks like TC are pointless. The world is not ending. The Fema camps aren't coming. There was no inside job. And I can safely say that never, ever in your lifetime, TC, will you see an 'independant investigation' paid for by tax dollars.

I'm going to continue to live in reality. I hope that someday TC and others like him will put this nonsense behind them... I only fear that the day they do it is because they've realized how much of their lives they wasted.

Sorry for the digression... TC was saying something about our government killing its own citizens...

[DGM]

No she didn't see the plane a mile behind her house. She heard it fly overhead and ran to look outside the window and saw it coming down. If it was never near her house there is no way she could have looked outside and saw it before it hit the ground as the official flight path places it a couple miles northwest of her house therefor the plane would crash long before she ever heard it.
TC:
She ran to the window? She didn't say that did she?

From OP article
She looked out the window, above the red barns. She caught a glimpse of it, like light off a watch face. Then nothing, and then a boom that nearly knocked her off the couch.

Sounds to me like she caught a glimpse while looking out a window from her couch.

[WildCat]

I don't know what problem you and Mr. Herbet have but I work right beside Pittsburgh Airport and The Fed Ex station and routinely for 10 hours a day have planes flying over my head every few minutes. I have never in the last 16 months had a problem distinguishing where that sound was originating from knew exactly where to look in the sky. I recommend you both have your ears evaluated.
What airport is Shanksville located near again?

[westprog]

;3549362']I fail to see how this "destroys" the "Official Story".

Any anomaly in the story totally destroys it. If a single witness says anything that doesn't fit, the whole thing is a lie.

It isn't necessary to show that any other theory can be even possible. It isn't necessary to show that the anomaly fits in with any other view, or that it's incompatible with what everyone believes.

It's impossible to imagine the conspiracists reacting in the same way to a quote that was incompatible with their own theories. If that standard were applied, their theories would collapse immediately.

This is another example of an anomaly that has to be carefully preserved. On no account must it be explained or examined. It needs to be kept in a lined box, to be produced on special occasions.

[TC329]

That's because you know where the planes go and come from.

No it's because I have ears. And every lurker here reading this thread has ears. And you're telling all of them they are either not qualified or too stupid to tell which direction a plane traveled if it was close enough for them to hear it.

In other words they can't tell the sound originated from the back of their house and traveled over to the front.

I wonder why Mrs. McClatchey didn't run to the windows in the back of her house to catch a glimpse of the plane going down. Care to take a stab at that one?

What does one have to have a degree in to be qualified enough to determine where sound is originating from since you think Mrs. McClatchey isn't either qualified or smart enough to tell?

[ElMondoHummus]

Val McClatchey's account destroys the Official Story



You know, we must be careful about assuming certain things about historical events. The primary one, which I take from Michael Shermer's book "Denying History (http://www.amazon.com/Denying-History-Holocaust-Never-Happened/dp/0520216121)", applies quite well to 9/11, although the original statement was in regards to the Holocaust, and took a path through evolution to make its point. That point is the excessive reduction of history to single points of dispute or "failure" is the tack that conspiracy fantasists take when tackling the "official story". But the problem is that history is not that simple, and that truth is not discovered through such analysis. Shermer draws a comparison with the theory of evolution, and we see that that theory isn't so simple either, and cannot be disproven by point disagreements or isolated errors in the narrative:


We know about the past through a convergence of evidence... The historical theory of evolution gains confirmation by many independent lines of evidence converging on a single conclusion. Independent sets of data from geology, paleontology, botany... and many other sciences each point to the conclusion that life has evolved. Creationists demand "just one fossile transitional form" that shows evolution. But a single fossile cannot prove evolution. Evolution involves a convergence of fossils and many other lines of evidence...

For creationists to disprove evolution, they would need to unravel all these independent lines of evidence and find a rival theory that can explain them better than evolution. They cannot, without invoking miracles, which are not a part of science.


The same can be said of 9/11 conspiracy mythology. Whether points of error or dispute are valid or not, none of them can truly undo the narrative:


... there is an assumption by deniers that if they can just find one tiny crack in the Holocaust structure, the entire edifice will come tumbling down. This is a fundamental flaw in their reasoning. The Holocaust is not a single event that a single fact can prove or disprove. The Holocaust was a myriad of events in a myriad of places and relies on myriad pieces of data that converge on one conclusion. Minor errors or inconsistencies here or there cannot disprove the Holocaust, for the simple reason that these lone bits of data never proved it in the first place."


Therein lies the rub. The conspiracy fantasists are accidentally correct when they point out that the NIST report has errors. Dr. Quinteirre has pointed this out; so has Dr. Astaneh-Asl. That the fantasists exceed logic in the conclusions they draw, and that they mistakenly damn the whole report for weaknesses other than what actually exist in the report is a separate issue. They're accidentally correct (albeit for the wrong reasons) when they point out that the NCSTAR works have problems.

But do those problems undo the central narrative of jets being hijacked, and impacting the buildings? No. Of course not. Like the Holocaust, myriad events and myriad pieces of data contribute to that narrative. It takes more than point disputes to undo the narrative.

And in regards to Flight 93 (which the NIST reports did not deal with): What does this mean? Well, it means that the same applies. What number of elements add up to the overall narrative of Flight 93? The FDR, the wreckage, the airphone calls... what else? For example: Does anyone know what the ATC radar data says, if anything? What elements add up to that narrative. And when you take the narrative as a whole: How do point details such as claims the flight landing in Cleveland (something easily disproven), disputes of the calls (the analyses behind which were shown to be wrong), or disputive interpretations of witness statements, undo the narrative? They may show issues, such as the frailty of witness testimony. But do they disprove the entire narrative of Flight 93?

Again:

For creationists to disprove evolution, they would need to unravel all these independent lines of evidence and find a rival theory that can explain them better than evolution. They cannot, without invoking miracles, which are not a part of science.


Substitute "conspiracy theorists" for "creationists", "conspiracies" for "miracles", and either "9/11" or "the overall narrative" (or heck, "the official story", if you want) for "evolution", and you see how strongly the statement applies to today. To be blunt, no issue raised by conspiracy fantasists, whether the supposed "squibs" in videos, to disputes about the FDR, to Dr. Jones's findings, to this topic - interpretations of Val McClatchey's statements - come close to explaining all the independent lines of evidence.


Source: "Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say It? (http://www.amazon.com/Denying-History-Holocaust-Never-Happened/dp/0520216121)", Michael Shermer, Alex Grobman

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I don't know what problem you and Mr. Herbet have but I work right beside Pittsburgh Airport and The Fed Ex station and routinely for 10 hours a day have planes flying over my head every few minutes. I have never in the last 16 months had a problem distinguishing where that sound was originating from knew exactly where to look in the sky. I recommend you both have your ears evaluated.


You know... I work in an office under some incoming and outgoing flight paths of the very same airport. Been there for almost 2 years now. I long ago realized the general direction the planes travel, but I still can't tell which direction they are traveling, or pinpoint exactly where in the sky to look when I do hear one.

[gumboot]

She looked out the window, above the red barns. She caught a glimpse of it, like light off a watch face.


ETA : I already had to report 3 out of the first 4 replies. You guys sure do have a way of making us look irrational.....lol



Would an aircraft "above the red barns" be closer to Indian Lake than her house, or further away?

[gumboot]

Val McClatchey's house is about 300ft from Indian Lake, and about 1.5 miles from the crash site of UA93.

UA93 was traveling at just under 10 miles a second when it crashed.

If she had really heard UA93 as it crossed Indian Lake, the aircraft would have crashed before she had time to even register its presence (using the actual measurements, in would have crashed about 1/5 of a second after she heard it, using the article's measurements it would have crashed about 1/3 of a second after she heard it).

Simple mathematics tells us that the account in the article, taken verbatim, is physically impossible.

[MIKILLINI]

Find any smoking guns yet, TC?
A glimpse of a plane from a mile or more distance away is not enough time to determine its size, unless you are experienced with plane silhouettes.

[MIKILLINI]

Catching just a glimpse of a plane is not enough time to determine its size when the distance is a mile or more. Unless the person is knowledgeable on plane silhouettes and able to gauge distance, it would appear small at first glance.
No smoking gun here, TC.

[A W Smith]

Have you contacted Val while you were out there for clarification Dom? If so what did she say? Have you contacted the people on the list Mark Roberts provided you? It sure doesn't sound like it since you are now reduced to quoting third hand sources.

[1337m4n]

Please show who I took out of context or how.

You took Val out of context. The first two statements you bold aren't even her words, but the words of the person who wrote the article.

May we see her words please?

[BenBurch]

In both world wars, aircraft spotting was of vital importance to England, and so they spent a fair amount of time and energy on the matter.

Now, of course, English weather means that it is often the case that there is poor visibility, and so they tried to train the observers to find aircraft by their sound and to telephone in estimates of the number of aircraft, and their altitude and direction by ear.

They were horribly inaccurate.

So much so that bizarre acoustic stereo horn devices were created to allow more accurate localization of the sound.

[Pardalis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverberation

[Walter Ego]

Have you contacted Val while you were out there for clarification Dom? If so what did she say? Have you contacted the people on the list Mark Roberts provided you? It sure doesn't sound like it since you are now reduced to quoting third hand sources.


It's would be better if the truthers stay away from 9-11 witnesses. They usually end up harassing them.

PumpItOut.com speaks with 9/11 cameraman.

http://www.veoh.com/videos/v4101258CaFwrr29

Val McClatchey

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06218/711239-85.stm#

Barry Jennings

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=108978

They'll even go after the widows (http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/seven/07162007/news/columnists/9_11_skeptics_lunatic_fringe_columnists_andrea_pey ser.htm).

Real classy these truthers.

[gc051360]

Yup. This blows the lid off the whole thing.

I'm not even sure what the claim is. She heard a plane, caught a glimpse of something....and then heard the noise.

From the article posted earlier:
A kook calling himself Killtown has posted her home address, phone number, and personal email address online.
Is that true? That's pretty shocking.

[TC329]

Val McClatchey's house is about 300ft from Indian Lake, and about 1.5 miles from the crash site of UA93.

UA93 was traveling at just under 10 miles a second when it crashed.

If she had really heard UA93 as it crossed Indian Lake, the aircraft would have crashed before she had time to even register its presence (using the actual measurements, in would have crashed about 1/5 of a second after she heard it, using the article's measurements it would have crashed about 1/3 of a second after she heard it).

Simple mathematics tells us that the account in the article, taken verbatim, is physically impossible.

If the aircraft was a couple miles northwest of her how did she hear it before it wrecked?

Let's see simple mathematics explain that one.

[jhunter1163]

Gumboot:

I think you mean 10 miles a minute.

I have a hard time believing that TC has ever heard a jet engine. Those things are LOUD. Why do you think people fight so hard to keep airports from building new runways?

And, of course, all the other points made upthread about the difficulty in determining where a sound outside is coming from when one is inside are still valid.

[TC329]

Gumboot:

I think you mean 10 miles a minute.

I have a hard time believing that TC has ever heard a jet engine.

Yesum we um sure um dont be seeing um many of dem fancy aircrafts thingies you be um talking about here in um pittsburgh. what is um a jet anyways?

[16.5]

Val McClatchey's account destroys the Official Story.

Oh Dear. That is perhaps a wee bit of an exaggeration, wouldn't you agree TC?

I'd say that "A second hand written summary of Val McClatchey's story perhaps differs in some minor, imperceptible way with the overwhelming weight of evidence."

[uk_dave]

Yesum we um sure um dont be seeing um many of dem fancy aircrafts thingies you be um talking about here in um pittsburgh. what is um a jet anyways?

It's one of those things your mates at pft are incapable of calculating the G forces for. Remember?

[jhunter1163]

Yesum we um sure um dont be seeing um many of dem fancy aircrafts thingies you be um talking about here in um pittsburgh. what is um a jet anyways?

And this relates to anything.... how?

[applecorped]

TC329, you are finally revealing your true self! It wasn't that hard, was it?

[gumboot]

Gumboot:

I think you mean 10 miles a minute.


Ha! Yes, I do. Wow. That's Stundie material.

[1337m4n]

Excuse my noobishness, but even if this account is true and accurate and TC is accurately assessing said account...


...how exactly does this "destroy the Official Story"?

This isn't more North-Of-The-Citgo nonsense, is it?

[pomeroo]

If the aircraft was a couple miles northwest of her how did she hear it before it wrecked?

Let's see simple mathematics explain that one.


The lies and incompentence of the fraudulent "pilots" were exposed by not-so-simple mathematics on the Flight 77 FDR thread. Edit for civility You have produced nothing to support your fantasies.

Edit for civility

[DC]

It was coming almost straight down. She caught a glimpse of it. She didn't see it over the lake did she?

straight down?
NTSB claims 40° impact angle. not even near straight down.

[WildCat]

UA93 was traveling at just under 10 miles a second when it crashed.
36,000 mph? ;)

[DGM]

straight down?
NTSB claims 40° impact angle. not even near straight down.
For a 757 40° (inverted no less) is straight down. I believe that would be considered beyond the limits of the plane. But if you want to be literal, no it is not and I retract the statement.

[TC329]

Val McClatchey's account destroys the Official Story.

Oh Dear. That is perhaps a wee bit of an exaggeration, wouldn't you agree TC?

I'd say that "A second hand written summary of Val McClatchey's story perhaps differs in some minor, imperceptible way with the overwhelming weight of evidence."


If the aircraft was a couple miles northwest of her how did she hear it before it wrecked?

If it did not fly over her house or anywhere within miles of her house how did she hear it?

[TC329]

And this relates to anything.... how?


You don't believe I've ever heard a jet engine. I know Pittsburgh is a third world country but we do have airports here. You should get outside more often.

[TC329]

Excuse my noobishness, but even if this account is true and accurate and TC is accurately assessing said account...


...how exactly does this "destroy the Official Story"?

This isn't more North-Of-The-Citgo nonsense, is it?

Val McClatchey has nothing to do with the Pentagon. You think Val is relevant to Flight 77?

[TC329]

The lies and incompentence of the fraudulent "pilots" were exposed by not-so-simple mathematics on the Flight 77 FDR thread. Edit for civility You have produced nothing to support your fantasies.

Edit for civility

Flight 77 has nothing to do with Val McClatchey.

Val McClatchey lives southeast of the crash site. In order for her to hear a plane you allege never got within 2 miles of her house is an impossibility especially if she hears it before it crashed.

In order for her to hear it before the crash it has to come from Indian Lake (where residents saw debris raining down and where Jim Stop said he saw it breaking apart in the sky while fishing on a boat).

[R.Mackey]

Val McClatchey lives southeast of the crash site. In order for her to hear a plane you allege never got within 2 miles of her house is an impossibility especially if she hears it before it crashed.

In order for her to hear it before the crash it has to come from Indian Lake (where residents saw debris raining down and where Jim Stop said he saw it breaking apart in the sky while fishing on a boat).

That's a pretty bold, and flimsy, claim you've got there. I trust you realize that, being subsonic, the sound of the aircraft would in fact be ahead of its position at all times?

Put some numbers on it. What trajectory do you think the plane took? Where do you think it was when she heard it? Sharpen up this claim, or else it's nothing but totally unfounded speculation -- one that echoes similar and irresponsible claims made by miscreants in the past.

[16.5]

If the aircraft was a couple miles northwest of her how did she hear it before it wrecked?

If it did not fly over her house or anywhere within miles of her house how did she hear it?

I am confused. Are you suggesting that the plane was exceeding the sound barrier? Are you suggesting that she could not hear the planes because it was too far away?

If the later, I can assure you from personal observation yesterday that a plane can certainly be heard from much more than 2 miles away.

/lives near a flight path into O'Hare.

[beachnut]

Val McClatchey has nothing to do with the Pentagon. You think Val is relevant to Flight 77?
He was saying your ability to use quotes and twist them to suit a fantasy story are similar to the treatment of the Pentagon fantasies about 77.

I thought she lived 1.6 miles from the impact. Why does sound not travel to her house? Why would you be able to track reflected sound to the correct direction? Even pilots have a problem finding planes from sound. So have you, but how can you admit it when you are trying to make up story that is false.

Where was the photo take from on the google earth diagram? Please show us your sound study of the area and how the reflected sound from the area could not lead to false impressions of location based on some massive study of psychoacoustics you have done.

So far you have a failed hearsay treatment of 9/11; again making up false implication of conclusion you can not support with fact or evidence.

[leftysergeant]

The crash site is almost directly behind the red barns as viewed from Val's house.That would mean that, judging by the impact hole, it was travelling toward her from the direction of the field.

I live next to a lake with mixed wetlands and Douglas fir trees on two sides, and a road and woods on one side, and mixed houses and woods on another. About three miles away, out of sight behind the trees, is McChord AFB.

Sometimes it sounds as though C-17 were doing touch and goes on my driveway. Sometimes, I think I hear an F-16 buzzing the trees over the lake to the ast and am surprised by the plane's passing over my head from the west.

Sound baffling is quite disorienting sometimes. It is easy to hear an airliner at full throttle from an incredible distance over relatively flat land, but even trees cause some distortiuon of the sound.

As for the fisherman in a boat on the lake, he may not really have noticed anything until he saw debris in-bound.

There's nothing here, really.

[uruk]

Low frequency sounds are also very hard to pinpoint because of the longer wavelengths. That's why you can place a woofer just about anywhere in a room and still hear the lows fine just about anywhere in the room

[PhantomWolf]

I'm confused, is TC claiming that the sound of the plane's engines wouldn't travel 2 miles, or that the plane would have crashed before it could? I can hear the DASH-8's taking off from my local airport when I am at home, and that is about 8km away.

[CurtC]

No it's because I have ears. And every lurker here reading this thread has ears. And you're telling all of them they are either not qualified or too stupid to tell which direction a plane traveled if it was close enough for them to hear it.
I'll tell anyone right now, including you and lurkers, that a person cannot reliably tell the direction a plane's noise is coming from when they're sitting inside their house. I think you must be the only person here who somehow thinks it would be natural to know that just based on hearing jet engines.

Also, Val lived out in the country, where it's much quieter than in the city. The noise from a plane from three or four miles away would easily be heard (I'm guessing that if she heard noise before she caught a glimpse of the plane, the noise she was just then hearing would be the noise the plane was making when it was significantly farther away). And that's IF she really heard the noise at all - maybe she didn't. It's also quite possible that she caught a glimpse of the plane out of her peripheral vision while sitting on the couch, and in the next eight or ten seconds heard its jet engine noise followed by the boom, and her memory isn't perfectly accurate about the timing. Eyewitnesses are notoriously poor at reconstructing the sequence of events they've seen.

Either mundane explanation is good enough to declare your fantasy about her account "destroying" the usual explanation, to be completely without merit.

[Pookster]

... Val McClatchey lives southeast of the crash site. In order for her to hear a plane you allege never got within 2 miles of her house is an impossibility especially if she hears it before it crashed. ....

If your argument is dependent on what you're stating here, then the death of the Official Story has been greatly exaggerated. Based on how sound travels, she could've easily thought the plane was overhead given that this would be a new experience for her. I'm not surprised at all that she would misjudge the location; I'd tend to expect her to.

[TC329]

Pittsburgh Tribune Review (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_12967.html)


[John]Fleegle, marina owner Jim Brant and two of Brant’s employees were among the dozens who witnessed the crash from Indian Lake. Fleegle had just returned to the marina to get fuel for a boat that had run out of gas when Carol Delasko called him into the drydock barn to watch news of the World Trade Center attack.


“All of a sudden the lights flickered and we joked that maybe they were coming for us. Then we heard engines screaming close overhead. The building shook. We ran out, heard the explosion and saw a fireball mushroom,” said Fleegle, pointing to a clearing on a ridge at the far end of the lake.




Pittsburgh Tribune Review (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_47536.html)


Meanwhile, investigators also are combing a second crime scene in nearby Indian Lake, where residents reported hearing the doomed jetliner flying over at a low altitude before "falling apart on their homes."

"People were calling in and reporting pieces of plane falling," a state trooper said.

Jim Stop reported he had seen the hijacked Boeing 757 fly over him as he was fishing. He said he could see parts falling from the plane.


I guess that's 2 more witnesses that place the plane 2 miles southeast over Indian Lake flying Northwest towards the crater which would take it right over Val McClatchey's house which explains why she heard it fly over while watching tv from her couch and managed to catch a glimpse of it before it impacted the field.

The Official Story doesn't account for the plane turning around somewhere in the vacinity of New Baltimore and flying Northwest over Indian Lake towards Shanksville, now does it?

[TC329]

What?

Suddenly no one has anything to say?

Flight 93 flew over Indian Lake.

Flight 93 was shot down.