Gas tips

[NobbyNobbs]

My father-in-law sends me all kinds of crap emails, and most of the time I know they are crap the moment I look at them.

This one, however, I can't tell offhand if this one has any truth to it or not. Perhaps folks here could verify/debunk it? Thanks.

> How to get more for your money. CA is now at $4.00/gal.!!!
>
>
> I don't know what you guys are paying for gasoline.... but here in
> California we are also paying higher, up to $3.50 per gallon. But my line
> of work is in petroleum for about 31 years now, so here are some tricks to
> get more of your money's worth for every gallon..
>
>
>
> Here at the Kinder Morgan Pipeline where I work in San Jose , CA we deliver
> about 4 million gallons in a 24-hour period thru the pipeline. One day is
> diesel the next day is jet fuel, and gasoline, regular and premium grades.
> We have 34-storage tanks here with a total capacity of 16,800,000 gallons.
>
>
>
>
> Only buy or fill up your car o r truck in the early morning when the ground
> temperature is still cold. Remember that all service stations have their
> storage tanks buried below ground. The colder the ground the more dense the
> gasoline, when it gets warmer gasoline expands, so buying in the afternoon
> or in the evening....your gallon is not exactly a gallon. In the petroleum
> business, the specific gravity and thet emperature of the gasoline, diesel
> and jet fuel, ethanol and other petroleum products plays an important role.
>
>
>
> A 1-degree rise in temperature is a big deal for this business. But the
> service stations do not have temperature
>
> Compensation at the pumps.
>
>
>
> When you're filling up do not squeeze the trigger of the nozzle to a fast
> mode. If you look you will see that the trigger has three (3)stages: low,
> middle, and high. In slow mode you should be pumping on low speed, thereby
> minimizing the vapors that are created while you are pumping. All hoses at
> the pump have a vapor return. If you are pumping on the fast rate, some
> other liquid that goes to your tank becomes vapor. Those vapors are being
> sucked up and back into the underground storage tank so you're getting less
> worth for your money.
>
>
>
> One of the most important tips is to fill up when your gas tank is HALF FULL
> or HALF EMPTY. The reason for this is, the more gas you have in your tank
> the less air occupying its empty space. Gasoline evaporates faster than you
> can imagine. Gasoline storage tanks have an internal floating roof. This
> roof serves as zero clearance between the gas and the atmosphere, so it
> minimizes the evaporation. Unlike service stations, here where I work, every
> truck that we load is temperature compensated so that every gallon is
> actually the exact amount.
>
>
>
> Another reminder, if there is a gasoline truck pumping into the storage
> tanks when you stop to buy gas, DO NOT fill up--most likely the gasoline is
> being stirred up as the gas is being delivered, and you might pick up some
> of the dirt that normally settles on the bottom. Hope this will help you
> get the most value for your money.
>
>
>
> DO SHARE THESE TIPS WITH OTHERS!

[WildCat]

It's definitely true that when the gas is cold you get more btu's for the buck.

[AgeGap]

How much would the temperature fluctuate in an underground storage tank throughout a single day?
My tip-Only fill up in Winter.

[fls]

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/gastips.asp

Linda

[Bikewer]

Seems to me these things are "technically" correct, but would be unlikely to make any appreciable difference.

The amount of vaporized gas sucked back into the pump during a typical fill-up would likely be very small, as would the actual difference between a "cold" gallon and a "hot" one. As noted, I imagine the temperature of the buried tank probably doesn't vary much...

I do recall seeing gas tanks overflow on very hot days, that's pretty common. Fill up the car in the morning and park it on a hot parking lot. But that was before modern positive-venting tanks.

[Modified]

Seems to me these things are "technically" correct, but would be unlikely to make any appreciable difference.

Agreed. Carpooling for one day a year would probably save more fuel than doing all of those things.

[Careyp74]

A very good source for information dealing with these viral emails is Snopes.com. I don't see too much merit in this particular email. The appeals to authority, the proofs by verbosity, the grammatical errors made by someone who is trying to convey intelligence....

On the first tip, filling up in the morning,
gasoline expands or contracts about 1% for every 15-degree change in the fuel's temperature. I do not know the variance of temperature in those underground tanks, but I don't think we even see a 15 degree change, it is underground, where the sun isn't hitting (that is why some buildings are using underground cooling systems.)

On the second point, how much vapor do you really think you create in one pumping? At low speed you are pumping for a much longer period, and I suspect that if tested, the difference in vapor between slow and fast speed is minimal, so maybe we actually create more vapor per gallon pumped by going at slow speed.

Filling up at half full? Where is the gas evaporating to? How about this- if you maintain a 3/4 full average on your tank, (filling up at half full and driving until it is half full again) you are hauling around more weight than if you maintain a half full average (filling up only when you are near empty) and more weight means lower mileage.

On the last tip, they are called filters. Every pump has them, don't worry about seeing a filling truck.

I am not impressed with this guy, even if his company has 34 storage tanks. His use of words like worth and specific gravity. I think the originator of this email was the Kinder Morgan janitor.

[Iamme]

Probably all the "tips" combined will yield you an additional 1-3 cents per tankful?

Here is MY tip: If you are transporting a passenger you do not particularly care for, or who talks too much, tell them to pay you or kick them out to lessen the load.

Keep your tires inflated to like 35 psi. And in cold weather, they will deflate on their own so keep tabs on them.

Keep as much load off the alternator as possible. A/C and blower motors (and a/c compressors when clutch is activated) increase the drag. Alternators become harder to spin, when more load is applied.

If cars are not behind you and you have to stop, try to play a game and try to coast to a stop way in advance.

Drive under the speed limit by 5 mph to cut down headwind, whenever time does not mean much to you and you are not annoying people behind you.

Use overdrive if you have it.

A smaller engine does not always mean better gas mileage. And engine efficiency has to be figured in with wear and tear from loads placed on smaller economical engines not designed for heavy loads. (My 6-cylinder pickup got worse mileage than my SS396 under certain conditions)

If you need to travel on highway a lot, opt for a lower rear end gear ratio.

Accelerate slowly when you can.

Dodge potholes so that your wheels continue to spin true.

Make sure your brakes do not drag.

Tailgate semis.

Try to take a route where you can drive downhill both ways. :)

Drive at times of the day, if you have a flexible schedule, so that you drive during the windy part of the day when it is at your back.

Which got me thinking; on longer trips fill up for the drive that goes downhill, and ride lighter when going uphill.

[Tumblehome]

Those tips sound pretty good for the most part. You should mass email them. ;)


If cars are not behind you and you have to stop, try to play a game and try to coast to a stop way in advance.


I do that regularly, though I've never thought of it as a game.


Tailgate semis.


I did that once for about 15 minutes, but I had to be uncomfortably close to the semi. Whatever it saves in gas, it's not a smart thing to do.

[Careyp74]

Probably all the "tips" combined will yield you an additional 1-3 cents per tankful?

I think if you follow all of them you end up losing gas.


Here is MY tip: If you are transporting a passenger you do not particularly care for, or who talks too much, tell them to pay you or kick them out to lessen the load.

That is a great idea, and with the eco-friendly hype going on, I am sure they will understand. Also, charge them a carbon-footprint fee.


Keep your tires inflated to like 35 psi. And in cold weather, they will deflate on their own so keep tabs on them.

Not only will that save gas, it will keep your tires from wearing out prematurely.



Keep as much load off the alternator as possible. A/C and blower motors (and a/c compressors when clutch is activated) increase the drag. Alternators become harder to spin, when more load is applied.

If it is hot out, you should opt for the a/c instead of the windows, they cause even more drag.



If cars are not behind you and you have to stop, try to play a game and try to coast to a stop way in advance.

I do this every second of the day. I notice that no one else I ride with ever does it though. Some days I am able to drive from home to work without ever applying the brakes even once. Some cars behind me get upset getting off the highway though. The distance required to coast from 75 to 40 is a lot when you properly inflate your tires.


Drive under the speed limit by 5 mph to cut down headwind, whenever time does not mean much to you and you are not annoying people behind you.

Also, that would ensure you do not waste any energy by hitting that speed where you lose energy from the torque converter (for those with automatics; anywheres between 65 and 75 MPH depending)


Drive at times of the day, if you have a flexible schedule, so that you drive during the windy part of the day when it is at your back.

I don't think I care this much. I don't think anyone cares this much. Do you have a jib sail attached to your car? :)

[EvilSmurf]

If it is hot out, you should opt for the a/c instead of the windows, they cause even more drag.

Depending on your speed. The general rule is if you're driving in the city you should have your windows down, while on the highway it is more efficient to have the AC on.

[Hamradioguy]

Tailgate semis.


Yes this really does work, and yes, it's really, really dangerous.

I had a classmate in college who found himself driving home for the holidays witn not enough money to gas up. He tailgated a Greyhound bus for a couple hundred miles on the interstate and got fantastic gas milage. Of course, if the bus driver had to hit the brakes in a panic my friend would have been squashed on the rear of the bus in an instant. Drivers of big rigs are understandibly not impressed when someone does this trick.

[Iamme]

Those tips sound pretty good for the most part. You should mass email them. ;)



As I typed the post, these tips just kept coming to me.

Regarding the combustion engine... this is something that strikes me odd that I don't have the answer to exactly: A moped might get about 80 mpg. At first thought, this seems like a good way to save gas buzzing around town, or to make runs down to the corner grocery. But what is odd to me is the fact they ONLY get about 80 mpg. You wou think that based on their low weight, and less frictional parts in the engine, that they'd get way more. Maybe like 250+ or something. Anyone have the answer to this? Is it because they are 2-cycle? Wouldn't someone try to design one of these lightweight scooters to get way more mpg?

[Iamme]

Do you have a jib sail attached to your car? :)

No, but I pondered mounting a giant fanblade, attached to gear-shaft, (like a windmill) that would turn and assist driving the car forward. :) It is based on basic scientific principles like ynot's avatar.

[Iamme]

Yes this really does work, and yes, it's really, really dangerous.

I had a classmate in college who found himself driving home for the holidays witn not enough money to gas up. He tailgated a Greyhound bus for a couple hundred miles on the interstate and got fantastic gas milage. Of course, if the bus driver had to hit the brakes in a panic my friend would have been squashed on the rear of the bus in an instant. Drivers of big rigs are understandibly not impressed when someone does this trick.


I wonder just how much of an increase one might get, say if you had a smaller car.

[JWideman]

Having worked at a gas station, I can address a few of these:
Lots of people think it's best to buy gas in the morning. That's why my boss would go home at noon, stopping at the bank on the way.
Except on delivery days. He wouldn't bother coming in UNTIL noon.
And when would the boss fill up? When he came in or left. At noon.

[Bikewer]

Not quite on topic, but with the fluctuating price of gas, it's interesting seeing people go through all sorts of gyrations to hit a station with 2-3 cents per gallon lower prices.

On my 12-gallon tank, that's not much saving....

[Modified]

I wonder just how much of an increase one might get, say if you had a smaller car.

I used to have an 87 Chrysler LeBaron with an instantaneous gas mileage meter. At 70 mph it got about 29 mpg. Two car lengths behind a semi, you could get about 37mpg. I once had it loaded with probably 700 lbs of stuff while moving. With that load it got about 31 mpg at 70 mph. Apparently, at freeway speed, improved ground effects more than made up for the added weight.

[jnelso99]

Tailgate semis.

They did this one on Mythbusters. The conclusion was that it does give you better gas mileage, but you'd be an idiot to try it. Which means that most people would try it.

Another good way to save gas - work from home. I fill up my gas tank maybe once every two months.

[Beerina]

It's definitely true that when the gas is cold you get more btu's for the buck.

Well, I know that when the air's cold, it's denser, and more oxygen gets sucked in each cycle, making the burning more efficient. Don't know about the fuel itself, though.

[Beerina]

They did this one on Mythbusters. The conclusion was that it does give you better gas mileage, but you'd be an idiot to try it. Which means that most people would try it.

Another good way to save gas - work from home. I fill up my gas tank maybe once every two months.

Ya you had to be far too close for safety to get more than a few percentage points advantage.


As for the vapor thing, I kind of doubt that's much difference. For a huge gas tank which stores a lot of gas for months, perhaps, but even then the "floating cap" may be more for preventing the release of larger amounts of gas fumes, which must either be ejected or filtered on filling otherwise.

[Cuddles]

Keep your tires inflated to like 35 psi. And in cold weather, they will deflate on their own so keep tabs on them.

No. Keep them inflated to whatever the manual says they should be inflated to, and make sure you adjust it depending on how heavily loaded the car is. Depending on the vehicle, the tires could be anywhere between 30-45 psi, and the front and back tires should usually be different.

Drive under the speed limit by 5 mph to cut down headwind, whenever time does not mean much to you and you are not annoying people behind you.

No. There is an optimum speed where fuel efficiency ballances out against the increased speed. Travelling slower may be more efficient, but if you take a lot longer you will use more fuel overall. The best speed is usually quoted as around 50-55mph. However, this will depend very much on the vehicle, as well as the load and environmental conditions. Since the 50mph figure is from quite a while ago (1980s I believe) cars are generally more efficient and more aerodynamic now and it is more likely 60mph or higher for the average car.

Which got me thinking; on longer trips fill up for the drive that goes downhill, and ride lighter when going uphill.

Partly. Gravity accelerates you the same no matter how heavy you are, so having more petrol going downhill won't make any difference. Being lighter going uphill will obviously help though. In general, it depends. Ideally, you would want to fill up with only just enough to reach the next petrol station. However, that would mean stopping more often and could actually increase fuel consumption, especially if you're mainly driving on long, straight roads at a constant speed. It's a concern for racing drivers, but I'm not sure how much difference it would actually make to the average person.

[Iamme]

The heavier car should require less energy to go downhill while battling the wind at highway speed, in the same way that if you hit a standard golf ball at a given velocity, then compare to doing the same with a hollow plastic golf ball, there is no comparison as to which one goes the farthest when struck the same, due mostly to wind resistance. If you think it is more due to the differences of the compression forces at work at impact, then simply toss the balls the same way from your hand and you will see the same result. At highway speed there is a lot of wind resistance.

[arthwollipot]

Buy a hybrid.

Seriously.

My Toyota Prius regularly does 5 litres/100km when I don't run the air conditioning, and that's including highway driving, where the Prius is least efficient.

Last time I did the maths, 5 l/100k translates to something in the order of 60 miles per gallon. I drive over 100km every day and only have to fill it once a week.

Plus, you get to be all smug.

[Explorer]

Last week I drove home really fast and managed to get there before the gas ran out.

Phew!

[Explorer]

Buy a hybrid.

Seriously.

My Toyota Prius regularly does 5 litres/100km when I don't run the air conditioning, and that's including highway driving, where the Prius is least efficient.

Last time I did the maths, 5 l/100k translates to something in the order of 60 miles per gallon. I drive over 100km every day and only have to fill it once a week.

Plus, you get to be all smug.

I drove a Prius for a day as loan car whilst my Avensis diesel was being serviced. It was no better on fuel economy than the Avensis. The dealer of the retail dept of the garage, agreed with me, and said that the Prius is a city car, that is if you want to get the comparative best out of it.

[arthwollipot]

I drove a Prius for a day as loan car whilst my Avensis diesel was being serviced. It was no better on fuel economy than the Avensis. The dealer of the retail dept of the garage, agreed with me, and said that the Prius is a city car, that is if you want to get the comparative best out of it.Yes, absolutely. When you're driving in the city, at comparatively low speeds, stopping and starting all the time, then the Prius shines. This is because the electric engine is only capable on its own of speeds of 30-60kph, depending on the conditions - particularly the gradient of the road. Above that speed and the electric merely supplements the internal combustion engine. This means that out on the highway, when you're doing 90-100kph, you're getting less fuel efficiency. Which is, of course, backwards from most other types of vehicles.

I live 45km out of town, off a 100kph highway. Most of my driving is at these high speeds, in the hybrid's least efficient mode. And I still get around 5 l/100km (60 mpg). When I don't run the air conditioner.

[Zep]

Walk, you lazy bastards!

[UnrepentantSinner]

Here's a tip. Don't drive so much.

[arthwollipot]

Walk, you lazy bastards!Yeah, because I'm really going to walk 52km every day to get to work.

[Dan O.]

Not quite on topic, but with the fluctuating price of gas, it's interesting seeing people go through all sorts of gyrations to hit a station with 2-3 cents per gallon lower prices.

On my 12-gallon tank, that's not much saving....

That's what just about everybody thinks. But look at it from the station owners perspective: They may sell 200,000 gallons per month or more so if they can raise the price by 2-3 cents per gallon they earn an extra $5,000 a month. Other stations in the vicinity won't want to loose out on this windfall and will raise their prices to match. Then the cycle repeats with every station raising the price just a bit until they find the point where customers stop buying as much gas. You could be paying 50 cents or more per gallon extra because you won't shop for the best price.

[Careyp74]

That's what just about everybody thinks. But look at it from the station owners perspective: They may sell 200,000 gallons per month or more so if they can raise the price by 2-3 cents per gallon they earn an extra $5,000 a month. Other stations in the vicinity won't want to loose out on this windfall and will raise their prices to match. Then the cycle repeats with every station raising the price just a bit until they find the point where customers stop buying as much gas. You could be paying 50 cents or more per gallon extra because you won't shop for the best price.

OK, so we all bother driving around looking for the 2 cent less gas, empty out there tank, and then they fill up with the raised price gas and now has the same price as the other higher (2 cent) gas stations. Net result? We drive around more.

[littlehulkster]

Buy a hybrid.

Seriously.

My Toyota Prius regularly does 5 litres/100km when I don't run the air conditioning, and that's including highway driving, where the Prius is least efficient.

Last time I did the maths, 5 l/100k translates to something in the order of 60 miles per gallon. I drive over 100km every day and only have to fill it once a week.

Plus, you get to be all smug.

The Prius is a bloated whale car that defeats the entire point of owning a Hybrid.

Now, the Honda Insight, on the other hand, is a perfect example of the practical applications of this technology. I seriously considered buying one a while ago, but the low clearance and tiny, odd sized tires would not bode well for getting me around through the snow.

Here's a tip. Don't drive so much.

Getting Americans to not drive is like getting blood from a stone, my friend.

[Fiona]

CA is now at $4.00/gal.!!!

WOW! What are you worrying about??

[Dan O.]

OK, so we all bother driving around looking for the 2 cent less gas, empty out there tank, and then they fill up with the raised price gas and now has the same price as the other higher (2 cent) gas stations. Net result? We drive around more.

http://www.gaspricewatch.com/
http://www.gasbuddy.com/

Only a fool would drive out of their way using more gas than what they save on the lower price. With a little advance planning you can know which alternate route will take you past the best gas price in your area.

[AliasN]

Tailgate semis.
In addition to the safety objections already stated, this seems to me to be a really jerky thing to do anyway. Doesn't adding drag to the truck itself cause the truck to use more fuel? Making a trucker have to use more fuel to save fuel for yourself is, well, not cool, to put it mildly.

[Dan O.]

Not necessarily.

The truck has already waisted the fuel pushing a big square box into the wind. By filling in the tail, you are interfering with the vortex that would create a vacuum and cause a further drag on the truck. This would be a win-win for everybody. Most likely, you aren't going to be that close but rather in the second or third wake where there will be no effect on the lead vehicle.

Tailgating isn't a problem because of breaking distance. Your lightweight car will easily stop before the heavy truck. The problem is your reaction time. It will take 2 to 4 seconds before you realize that the truck is breaking which would put his bumper somewhere in your back seat before you hit your breaks.

If you want to form a road train to save gas, you need to equip your car with an automatic pacing and breaking system. Such systems had been tested at least 20 years ago and would even steer for you if you weren't the lead car.

[arthwollipot]

The Prius is a bloated whale car that defeats the entire point of owning a Hybrid.Say what you like. I use almost exactly half as much petrol now as I did before I got it.

[littlehulkster]

Say what you like. I use almost exactly half as much petrol now as I did before I got it.

And you'd use half that if the Prius didn't weigh as much as Moby Dick. It'd be a lot faster, too.

As it is, the Prius gets worse real world mileage than most small diesels and somehow manages to be slower, too. If Toyota didn't feel the need to fill the thing with 1500 pounds of extraneous techno gadgets, it'd be a lot better.

[arthwollipot]

And you'd use half that if the Prius didn't weigh as much as Moby Dick. It'd be a lot faster, too.

As it is, the Prius gets worse real world mileage than most small diesels and somehow manages to be slower, too. If Toyota didn't feel the need to fill the thing with 1500 pounds of extraneous techno gadgets, it'd be a lot better.I get the feeling that you've never driven one.

[littlehulkster]

I get the feeling that you've never driven one.

I get the feeling you've never driven a diesel Golf, which would be faster, better handling, cheaper, more reliable, easier to maintain and find parts for, faster, more comfortable, less noisy and get better mileage. In fact, a diesel powered BMW 5 series (http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/used_car_reviews/article3552994.ece) gets better mileage than the Prius, not to mention being better in every other measurable category.

The Prius is simply a rolling techno showcase. I can get a diesel that will do everything it does, only much better. If Toyota would have gone the same route as Honda did with the Insight, the Prius might be better. Being as we live in a world where small diesels exist, it's pretty hard to recommend the Prius for anything but a vanity aid.

[arthwollipot]

I get the feeling you've never driven a diesel Golf, which would be faster...Why should I want a car that's faster? The speed limit on Australian roads is 110kph on the freeway, and my Prius handles that with aplomb. It handles as well or better than any other car I've owned - significantly in some cases. Cheaper and easier to maintain I'll have to grant you. I got my Prius second-hand for a very reasonable price, but a new one is certainly quite expensive. As far as maintenance is concerned, the amount I know about motor vehicles I could write in thick crayon on the back of a postage stamp, so I'm always going to have to get someone else to work on any vehicle I own anyway. That doesn't really worry me too much.

Anyway, I see no reason to argue about this. Both the Prius and the small diesels you refer to are effective methods of reducing overall fuel consumption. There's no need to engage in competition about it. You have your solution, and I have mine. It sounds like we're both very happy with the solutions we've chosen, so let's just agree that they're both good and leave it at that.

I do have to say that my Prius is the best car I've ever driven, but that is a personal assessment. Your mileage (so to speak) may vary.

[littlehulkster]

I'd much rather have a BMW 5 series diesel than a Prius.

Also, you must have owned some horribly broken cars if the Prius is better handling. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtg2gGdmmzI) shows what happens when those low rolling resistance tires try and take a corner with any urgency at all. This is not only a problem on a race track, it could be a very serious problem if you ever had to do any emergency maneuvers on the road.

As far as maintenance is concerned, the Prius is going to end up costing you a whole lot more than a diesel regardless. Almost every part on it is unique. You can't even run regular oil in the motor.

Hybrid technology in general is just a step in the wrong direction. Car manufacturers focus on it and other malarkey like hydrogen while passing up on better solutions.

[arthwollipot]

You know what? I love my car. Your car's good too. I drive my car and I know what it's like. You're happy with yours, and I'm happy with mine. I know perfectly well what it costs, and you're not really telling me anything I don't know. So let's just agree to disagree, because I'm getting all defensive and everything, and I don't much like doing that.

Shake?

[Dan O.]

Just last month in a cross country road trip comparing the Prius II to the new Civic diesel, they both averaged about 60 MPG. When adding in the difference in fuel costs the Prius was cheaper. Routine maintenance of a hybrid is going to be less because things like breaks and clutches don't take as much wear.

The usual claim about battery replacement is assuming the stress of a starter battery that requires replacement every 5 years. The hybrid batteries are not subject to the high starting currents and are maintained closer to the middle of the charge range so they don't suffer from chemical breakdown as other battery systems. Toyota expects the batteries to last the life of the car.

http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Reliability.htm

[arthwollipot]

Just last month in a cross country road trip comparing the Prius II to the new Civic diesel, they both averaged about 60 MPG. When adding in the difference in fuel costs the Prius was cheaper. Routine maintenance of a hybrid is going to be less because things like breaks and clutches don't take as much wear.Fair, but littlehulkster does have a point, in that parts and maintenance for the Prius can be expensive. Case in point - there are only two people in Canberra who are qualified to service a Prius - one from the Toyota dealership and one other. Parts are proprietary - you can't take a component from a different kind of vehicle and expect it to work in a Prius. This adds up. Normal engines with low consumption (like the small diesels mentioned) are easier and cheaper to maintain over the long term.

[Beerina]

It occurs to me that driving around with a mostly full gas tank would use up more fuel than you'd lose because of a mostly empty one and fumes. The additional weight would be a small but non-trivial drag on acceleration.

[littlehulkster]

Just last month in a cross country road trip comparing the Prius II to the new Civic diesel, they both averaged about 60 MPG. When adding in the difference in fuel costs the Prius was cheaper. Routine maintenance of a hybrid is going to be less because things like breaks and clutches don't take as much wear.

The usual claim about battery replacement is assuming the stress of a starter battery that requires replacement every 5 years. The hybrid batteries are not subject to the high starting currents and are maintained closer to the middle of the charge range so they don't suffer from chemical breakdown as other battery systems. Toyota expects the batteries to last the life of the car.

http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Reliability.htm

And how much does the Prius cost compared to the Civic? How much more does servicing all those totally unique parts cost? Something tells me you'd have to drive a lot of miles to make up the difference in cost between a hybrid and a small diesel.

Also, how, exactly, would the brakes take less wear on a hybrid? You're stopping just as much as you would in any other car. Even if they did take less wear, I can fix a Civic myself or take it to any mechanic anywhere in the country. I'd have to pay a lot more and drive 50 miles to the Toyota dealership to get my Prius serviced every time it needs it.

BTW, the Prius has no clutch, either. It's got a CVT transmission, and a special type at that. Also, almost no one would know how to work on it. Even Toyota dealerships have to special order lots of parts and manuals for the Prius.

I really can't see the point of hybrids. Cut out the gas motor all together and we'd be talking, but as they are they're no more than a status symbol.

[Pope130]

On the brake wear question: Some hybrids and most electrics use dynamic or regenerative braking in addition to mechanical braking. In dynamic braking power is applied to the drive motor in reverse, providing braking effect. Regenerative braking switches the motor to a generator, both providing back EMF, and recharging the batteries.

Robert

[UnrepentantSinner]

Getting Americans to not drive is like getting blood from a stone, my friend.

* UnrepentantSinner points to his location

My vehicle is 6 1/2 years old and has just under 35,000 miles on it. We don't have to drive, we chose to drive. I do so myself and my suggestion was not to not drive, but to not drive as much.

- eta And my original comment was more snark than advice. :)

[littlehulkster]

On the brake wear question: Some hybrids and most electrics use dynamic or regenerative braking in addition to mechanical braking. In dynamic braking power is applied to the drive motor in reverse, providing braking effect. Regenerative braking switches the motor to a generator, both providing back EMF, and recharging the batteries.

Robert

Regenerative braking is also found in modern diesels, FYI.

[arthwollipot]

Regenerative braking is also found in modern diesels, FYI.Huh? How does that work? In a hybrid, regenerative braking recharges the batteries. What is the purpose of regenerative braking in a modern diesel?

[lauwersw]

Take your foot of the gas and a diesel will slow down noticeably more than when you would be running idle. Most modern engines cut off fuel supply as soon as you stop giving gas, so it's your inertia that keeps the engine running instead of precious fuel. Part of this is just friction losses, but a significant part goes to air compression.

It seems that the BMW 5 that was raced against the Prius also generates some regenerative electricity while braking which can be used to power the electrical system, which is a quite significant part of energy consumption in a vehicle, think air conditioner.

I don't know for how much this all counts, but it's better than nothing.

[littlehulkster]

Huh? How does that work? In a hybrid, regenerative braking recharges the batteries. What is the purpose of regenerative braking in a modern diesel?

Probably using the wasted power of the motor to power the electrical system.

In a car like the 5 series which is full of gadgets, that would be a big deal, I'd imagine.

Honestly, as much as I bash hybrids, if there was any chance that a Honda Insight could get into my driveway in the winter, I'd probably own one.

[arthwollipot]

It seems that the BMW 5 that was raced against the Prius also generates some regenerative electricity while braking which can be used to power the electrical system, which is a quite significant part of energy consumption in a vehicle, think air conditioner.The Prius has two batteries - the primary battery, which runs the electrical engine, and the secondary battery, which runs the electric components of the internal combustion engine (the equivalent of the battery in a normal car).

In the Prius, regenerative braking charges the primary battery. If you put electricity into an electric motor, the spindle turns. But if you turn the spindle, you get electricity out of it (a dynamo). The Prius uses this effect to recharge the primary battery. The secondary battery is charged by an alternator just like on a normal car. A normal non-hybrid does not require any assistance to keep the battery charged, so I'm a little at a loss to understand how a non-hybrid uses regenerative braking.

Oh, and while we're Prius-bashing, the air conditioner is the biggest spoiler of efficiency in the whole car. During the winter when I'm not using air conditioning, I get 5.0 - 5.1 l/100k. During the summer, when I use the air conditioning, I get 5.2 - 5.3 minimum. It seems that the a/c compressor runs solely off the internal combustion engine.

But my Prius is a Series 1. I'm sure they've made some improvements in the Series 2.