How would you have handled this?

[Ed]

So, my wife bought a bunch of eazy-2-read books for my 8 year old. So it is bedtime and I am reading away ... some story about a fisherman. Cute.

Anyway, to my horror, I found that this was about St. Peter and Jebus:eek:

So, this story that started out sorta cute devolved into sin washing and all sorts of wierd child friendly christian propaganda.

I read ahead a bit and became progressively more horrified.

I told my kid "I don't want to read this anymore. It's too silly and I don't like it, and anyway, it's late".

He was not thrilled. I told my wife (who is interesting. She was never baptised or entered into ANY religion, ever.) She suggested that I could have prefaced reading the mythology by saying "some people believe this but I don't". I said that I did not want to give that stuff any authority whatsoever, which it would have had if I had read it.

She sheepishly told my she bought 8 books in the series.

And we worry about kids getting ahold of porn. Sheesh.

[Zep]

Make sure you call it a Fairy Story next time.

[triadboy]

If the stories are about Jebus, they can't be THAT interesting. Read some other stuff in between the Jebus stories. You know, the stuff with zombies, flying people, unicorns, and talking snakes. He's sure to get a chuckle out of Balaams' talking ass.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Zep
Make sure you call it a Fairy Story next time.


VERY GOOD IDEA:D

I will say that I am very happy that my wife and I see eye to eye on this stuff.:rub:

[Fun2BFree]

Originally posted by Ed

She suggested that I could have prefaced reading the mythology by saying "some people believe this but I don't".

I think she is on the right track but be more dismissive of those who are willing to believe such nonsense. "Some people are willing to accept this nonsense as true without thinking about it-but mommy and I do not."

[Upchurch]

Was it "be good to people" type christian propoganda or more "love jebus" type christian propoganda? I mean, was there a valid moral lesson or was it pure marketing?

[Tricky]

I had the same reaction the first time my little nephew invited me to watch "Veggie Tales" with him. Of course, this is the hallmark of most religions. Get 'em while they're young and their basic beliefs are still being formed. That way your propaganda lasts a lifetime.

[whitefork]

Even as non-denominational/non-affiliated, I'll read the Bible from time to time as literature. One of the sad things about religious books for children is that the elegance, economy, and beauty of the language (talking King James Version here) is dropped while the questionable content and dubious moralizing is retained.

I think knowledge of the bible is of real benefit to anyone, at least as a cultural touchstone. After all, "the devil can cite scripture for his purpose", too. (that's Shakespeare of course, but he cribbed somewhat from the bible, too)

It throws people off if you know their sources as well as or better than they do.

But like firearms, definitely not for children.

[Brown]

I don't think there's any harm in having a child learn about the religions of others. There are some children's books out there that are intended to be instructive rather than proselytizing. That said, there are also some children's books that are shameless propaganda. As a parent, you have to make a judgment about what kind of book you have; adults can tell one kind from another, but kids can't.

There are also some children's books that actually change the Bible stories to make them "acceptable" to children, by either omitting atrocities or glossing over unpleasant aspects. As a child, for example, I learned that God removed Saul from the throne and put David on the throne because "Saul disobeyed God." But it wasn't until I was an adult that I learned what order God had supposedly given that Saul supposedly disobeyed. Even in adult education, this shocking part of the story is usually omitted.

(For those unfamiliar with the story, God supposedly ordered Saul to commit unspeakable genocide: "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." Saul killed all the people except for King Agag, and decided not to kill some of the animals right away, but to kill them later as sacrifices to the Lord. The Lord was furious at this disobedience. Agag was subsequently brought before the prophet Samuel, and Samuel murdered the unarmed prisoner in cold blood by hacking him to pieces with a sword. Read about it, if you have the stomach, in 1 Sam. chapter 15.)

[richardm]

Read the stories, but replace the word "Jesus" with "Mr. Tibbles", and the word "God" with "Daddy".

That should do the trick.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Brown
...

There are also some children's books that actually change the Bible stories to make them "acceptable" to children, by either omitting atrocities or glossing over unpleasant aspects.

... I'd like to see a children's book that tells the story of how King David sent his top general to die in battle just so he could diddle his wife. That's one of my favorite bible stories.

[whitefork]

I am pretty sure that motif occurs in several of the Brothers Grimm tales. Those do not purport to be holy writ, and they were not collected primarily for the amusement of children. Perhaps Hans Christian Andersen?

I'm particularly fond of the version of the Three Billy Goats Gruff where they sew up boulders into the troll's stomach and drown him. That one traumatized me early on.

[Brown]

Originally posted by Kullervo
I am pretty sure that motif occurs in several of the Brothers Grimm tales. Those do not purport to be holy writ, and they were not collected primarily for the amusement of children. Perhaps Hans Christian Andersen?Good point. As a kid, I heard "sanitized" versions of Grimm fairy tales and Andersen fairy tales. When I got older, I learned that a lot of children's stories were, in their original form, very gruesome. (Some of them also had sexual subtexts of which I was unaware.)

[hgc]

Originally posted by Brown
Good point. As a kid, I heard "sanitized" versions of Grimm fairy tales and Andersen fairy tales. When I got older, I learned that a lot of children's stories were, in their original form, very gruesome. (Some of them also had sexual subtexts of which I was unaware.) Oh, you bet. Like that Sleeping Beauty was impregnated and gave birth many times over by her Prince, while still in her deep sleep.

[Luciano]

Originally posted by Ed
She suggested that I could have prefaced reading the mythology by saying "some people believe this but I don't".
The kid (10 years old now) of a couple of friends of mine after some years of bedtime reading knows stories about Jesus and Holy Mary, Zeus, Athena and all the Greek/Roman pantheon, Horus/Ra/Isis etc.
Their parents (atheist) never had an aggressive approach about religion but now he tinks it's all "mythology", despite the catholic propaganda in the school.

Ciao
Luciano

P.S.: I'm sorry for my English, it's almost rusted :(

[EdipisReks]

Originally posted by Brown
(Some of them also had sexual subtexts of which I was unaware.)

this is very common. in Hansel and Gretel, for instance, the witch "eating" the children is generally accepted to be a metaphor for pedophilia.

[richardm]

... And Rumplestiltskin was a cautionary tale against female masturbation.

[Professor Frink]

Originally posted by richardm
Read the stories, but replace the word "Jesus" with "Mr. Tibbles", and the word "God" with "Daddy".

That should do the trick.

Ha ha! Good one. My first big laugh of the day.

My wife and I are not religious and do not attend church. I attended church with my family every week for the first 17 years of my life. My mom broke out a Davey and Goliath video for my 3 year old the last time I was at her house. I didn't have a problem with it, nor do I have a problem with the bible bedtime stories books they have or the jesus-in-the-manger puzzle. I don't have a problem with saying Grace before dinner with my parents either. It was the way I was raised, and when I was old enough I made my own decisions.

I think it is okay to say "some people believe that God lives in the sky and watches to make sure we're okay" etc. Because at the same time, he knows that some people can share their toys better than others, and that sometimes people have accidents and get hurt. Some people like green beans, and some don't. If I can use the "some people do and some people don't" argument for so many other parts of his life, then I hope the "some people" religious discussions will blend in with those. When he's old enough he can make his own decisions.

Frink

[Thanz]

I don't really see the problem here, depending on what exactly is in the books. If you read bible stories to your kids along with all the other stories, why would you think that they will believe the bible stories to be true and the others fiction? If you do not take them to church, and they do not go to a religious school, I don't see how a kid would connect the bible stories to anything other than just being stories.

I take it you are not worried that your child will grow up and think that trains can talk or that people eat green eggs and ham?

[billydkid]

Reminds a little of the situation I am in. My little guy who is now 11 (not so little anymore) has been exposed to the story of Jesus through my sister who has taken him to summer bible school since he was little. It never really bothered me and he enjoys it. Jesus has become a part of his conciousness now (much in the same way that it was a part of many of our's growing up). He appreciation of Jesus is so innocent and touching in the way that all kids faith in that sort of thing is. Honestly, I don't know how to deal with it. I can not and will not bring myself to tell him that I think Christianity is evil horse crap. And the Jesus story that all kids here, generally, is the innocent, love your neighbor, don't lie, be kind, etc. etc. kind of stuff. It was rough enough on him coming to grips with the Santa Clause thing. Is there really harm in letting him have his little Jesus comfort?

[Fun2BFree]

your sister is indoctrinating your kid with stuff you know to be evil crap and you wonder if there is a problem with this? regarding the Santa thing and this sort of deceit in general I quote liberally from the JREF weekly commentary of January 17, 2003 by Mr Randi and a reader-:
"A few weeks ago, discussing the Santa Claus matter, I said that I found it to be "a fun thing, used with kids who haven't yet learned to recognize the difference between reality and fantasy." Well, reader David Deutsch has rightly taken me to task for this:

But this is nonsense, James. If they could not tell the difference between reality and fantasy, then they would not be disappointed to be told that Santa Claus isn't real.
Moreover, if Santa Claus stories were being told in the same spirit as Snow White and Winnie the Pooh stories, then parents would no more go ballistic when someone told their children the truth about Santa Claus than they do in regard to Snow White and Winnie the Pooh. But they do go ballistic, don't they?

These years "up to about five years of age" are important years. They are years in which we discover not only the meanings of words and sentences, but the basic conceptual framework upon which we shall be building our understanding the world for the rest of our lives. Being taught lies and irrational modes of thinking during this period runs a coach and horses through a person's attempts to make sense of the world. And these are not just any lies; they are lies that have evolved over the generations to embed religious doctrines and magical explanation in the child's cosmology, his sense of morality, and his relationship with his parents. They also reward gullibility and frustrate scepticism.

These are also years in which human beings are exceptionally dependent on the integrity of other people for the quality of the information they receive. They have little option but to trust -- and it is a scandal that this trust is systematically betrayed.

You have inadvertently allied yourself with evil here. Please put it right."


That last line sums it up-you have said you know christianity is evil and yet you tacitly are allowing it to worm its way into the one life you really have some ability to shape beyond your own.

[arcticpenguin]

Read the stories, just make a few changes to them...

Have those eeevil Christians doing all sorts of bad things.