The PROOF that EVERYTHING you know about KOSOVO was a LIE! USA &NATO manipulated us!

[FreeRomanian]

FILM proving EVERYTHING you knew about KOSOVO was a LIE! USA and NATO MANIPULATED us!
--------------------------------------------

Everything you knew about KOSOVO was a LIE!
USA and NATO manipulated us!

Everything NATO said about SERBS were only a bunch of lies!

Look at the documentary made by American and Western analists:
You will understand all!

The FILM:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6cd_1194548338




Before this, I attached the youtube link for the very same movie,which was banned(2 days ago was not banned.I saw it firtsly on youtube)...
We trully live in a democracy,right...?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccQec5ZPNWg


After I saw it was banned, I searched the same movie on the internet , so I came with the second link on liveleak.
Who knows how much time will pass untill USA will also make preasures againgst this site in order to bann the movie!

This WORSE than In comunist CHINA or the ex USSR !!!

In the movie are also presented the true results of ONU's independent investigation imediatly after the bombing of YOUGOSLAVIA and the retreat of Serbian forces from KOSOVO.

They are TOTALLY diferent of what NATO sustained in order to have a pretext to bomb Yougoslavia!

NATO said that in KOSOVO over 100.000 albanians were masacrated by SERBIAN forces.


But the reality reported immediately in 1999 after the conflict by UN showed that only 2000 people died , this number including both serbs and albanians and soldiers from both sides!

But those numbers aren't much shown on media...
Maybe because USA doesn't want it... ;)


This is for the Truth!
This is for Justice!


STOP DEMONISING THE SERBS!
You all sound pathetic doing that!

You close your eyes to everything and keep repeting to yopurselves!
"Serbians are murderors!,Serbian are genocidals!,Serbians are murderors!,Serbian are genocidals!Serbians are murderors!,Serbian are genocidals!..."

Wake up!
Open your eyes!
Consult some real information sources!(not USA's filthy propaganda, such as the "100.000 albanians masacrated"...)


Start seeing the Truth and get rid of all the lies infused in your minds by NATO and USA's lies!!!


A very good site:


www.savekosovo.org

[FreeRomanian]

Also a site from my country,Romania:
The text is written in romanian:

Translation in romanian:

"De asemenea un site din tara mea ROMANIA
Textul e scris in romana:"



www.kosovo.ro

[Ziggurat]

Since you're new here, let me give you a little tip: when you use lots of large fonts and bold-face type, people read it like you're shouting. And most people on this board will not pay much attention to what you write, since they'll conclude from your shouting that you're just a shrill partisan. Try slowing down, writing in complete paragraphs, and letting the strength of your argument sway people instead of the strength of your passion.

[FreeRomanian]

Thanks for the tip.I did not know that.
I used large fonts so that the links can be more visible.
Due to the text length, the readers can easily go over them without noticing they are links.

And those links are very good, believe me.

It would be a smame to lose them, because they contain very very good and interesting information!

[WildCat]

Who knows how much time will pass untill USA will also make preasures againgst this site in order to bann the movie!
What makes you think the US government had anything to do with it?

[BeAChooser]

Thank you, Bill Clinton. (sarcasm)

[Kopji]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/letters/orl-myword03a08mar03,0,5383490.story

...

[Kopji]

It would be really weird for the US to censor this considering the story has been circulating since 1999 or so. I easily found this pov with a search.

I may be too cynical about this, but our support of the Muslim minority in one region probably serves to balance criticism of perceived anti Muslim efforts elsewhere. Not to name any places.

PS I think the Orlando Sentinel editorial is wrong on several points, not the least is that we care what Russia thinks. It is pretty evident that the Bush Administration doesn't much care what Putin thinks.

[mrbaracuda]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/letters/orl-myword03a08mar03,0,5383490.story

...

No one believes that the Kosovar Albanians will act as tolerant stewards of a multicultural society. Since 1999, Kosovar extremists have destroyed Christian churches and monasteries and expelled thousands of Serbs in a campaign that one NATO commander described as "ethnic cleansing."

Kosovar extremists? Oh why oh why can't they just say it. It's so easy. Muslims. There. I said it. :covereyes

[Architect]

Is this one for the Conspiracy section?

[Damien Evans]

Is this one for the Conspiracy section?

I think so.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Tough call. The OP brings up a valid debate about the NATO campaign in Kosovo, but sprinkles it with a dose of conspiracy thinking about government censorship, etc. etc.

I say, move half the OP to the Conspiracy section, and keep another half here ;)

[WildCat]

BTW, welcome to the forum FreeRomanian. We don't get many posters here from eastern Europe for some reason, hope you stick around.

[FreeRomanian]

Look who AMERICA gave independence to in KOSOVO:

Muslim ANIMAL Albanians BURNING an Christian Orthodox Church
and tearing the CROSSES apart from the roof while the mob composed also of wemen and children is very very happy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkgHkxIfgBc&feature=related



But, I must say, there are also Americans who think right!

For exemple UN General Lewis Mackenzie:
Look at his statement:
He is TOTALLY AGAINGST Kosovo's recognition of Independence!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EzBEoBSUTU

[Sefarst]

You might be interested in Noam Chomsky's Hegemony or Survival. He has a chapter in there almost entirely dedicated to talking about NATOs slanted view of the Serbs and Kosovars and some of the biases that come out in the media coverage.

[FreeRomanian]

It sounds interesting.

Maybe you can put a link on the forum to the book in .pdf format.

Thanks

[Sefarst]

It sounds interesting.

Maybe you can put a link on the forum to the book in .pdf format.

Thanks
I don't know how to do that? I'm not very computer savvy. It's a bestseller though, you can find it in just about any major book store, I'd assume.

From Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Hegemony-Survival-Americas-Dominance-American/dp/0805074007

I don't want to give the idea that the whole book is about the Serbs and Kosovars, it's mostly about American foreign policy in Central/South America, the Middle East and parts of Asia. But, like I said, he does have a part that's highly critical of our actions in Kosovo in the 90's, though I don't think he goes quite as far as you do.

[FreeRomanian]

What NATO dis there was more than "fishy..."

And let's not forget, even if the media doesn't say a word anymore...
about the civilian train bombed by nato forces in 1999...

Everyone on board died...

- Bombing of Belgrade television

- Bombing of many other civilian targets.

In conclusion, NATO executed TERROR bombing on CIVILIAN POPULATION!While posing as "freedom defenders"...

[fuelair]

Look who AMERICA gave independence to in KOSOVO:

Muslim ANIMAL Albanians BURNING an Christian Orthodox Church
and tearing the CROSSES apart from the roof while the mob composed also of wemen and children is very very happy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkgHkxIfgBc&feature=related



But, I must say, there are also Americans who think right!

For exemple UN General Lewis Mackenzie:
Look at his statement:
He is TOTALLY AGAINGST Kosovo's recognition of Independence!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EzBEoBSUTU

After posting a thanks for advice about keeping your words normal size OR NO ONE WOULD PAY ATTENTION THINKING THEY WERE POINTLESS YELLING!!!!!!!!!!!!! you seem to have forgotten it quickly. Like others, I have not read either of your posts like that for that reason. It really was good advice.:)

[Pardalis]

Since you're new here, let me give you a little tip: when you use lots of large fonts and bold-face type, people read it like you're shouting. And most people on this board will not pay much attention to what you write, since they'll conclude from your shouting that you're just a shrill partisan. Try slowing down, writing in complete paragraphs, and letting the strength of your argument sway people instead of the strength of your passion.

A good tip gone to waste.

Oh well.

[kallsop]

NATO said that in KOSOVO over 100,000 albanians were masacrated by SERBIAN forces.

But the reality reported immediately in 1999 after the conflict by UN showed that only 2000 people died , this number including both serbs and albanians and soldiers from both sides!



It was known at the time that Cohen made the 100,000 missing remark that it was an outrageous overestimate. Post war surveys confirmed it was indeed in the 2000-3000 range. This is not new news, and generally, nobody gives a darn.

Look on the bright side. We are now basking in the love and warmth from our Muslim brothers who we helped in their just fight against those evil Orthodox Christians they were terrorising.

[Architect]

Maybe he's got a political agenda? Do you think he's pro-Albanian?

:rolleyes:

[WildCat]

Post war surveys confirmed it was indeed in the 2000-3000 range.
That was after subtracting the known number killed. If we know they were killed, they're no longer missing.

[Darth Rotor]

FILM proving EVERYTHING you knew about KOSOVO was a LIE! USA and NATO MANIPULATED us!
That you presume to know everything I know about Kosovo, and the attack in Serbia by NATO on the behalf of a particular group of whiners, is beyond arrogance, is smacks of trolling and a few other things.

A great deal of whay you pretend is news is rather old hat.

Welcome to the forum, and welcome to the year 2008.


STOP DEMONISING THE SERBS!
You all sound pathetic doing that![/b]
Since I don't, you can stop foaming at the mouth.

DR

[FreeRomanian]

Darth Rotor,

this self_proclamed declaration of Independence of Kosovo recognised and backed so hard by the US in 2008
is very conected with the 1999 illegal NATO war againgst Yougoslava...

And stop offending people...

Nobody has ''foaming at the mouth''!

[Ziggurat]

Nobody has ''foaming at the mouth''!

Darth Rotor is saying that you are foaming at the mouth (it's an idiom - are you familiar with its meaning?). I warned you that this is the sort of response you'd get, and your initial response suggested that you would take my advice. But you didn't. You have no one to blame but yourself for Darth's dismissiveness.

[dudalb]

An Apologist for Serbian "Ethnic Cleansing". Lovely.

[dudalb]

STOP DEMONISING THE SERBS!

If you indulge in Genocide,people have a way of having a low opinion of you.
Funny,that.

[monoman]

indeed...

i agree...

really?

erm... (I'm struggling now) ....

ha!

(If you're confused about this reply, check out FreeRomanian's previous - let's get my post count up so I can post links - posts. Hehe. )

[TobiasTheViking]

Look who AMERICA gave independence to in KOSOVO:

Muslim ANIMAL Albanians BURNING an Christian Orthodox Church
and tearing the CROSSES apart from the roof while the mob composed also of wemen and children is very very happy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkgHkxIfgBc&feature=related



But, I must say, there are also Americans who think right!

For exemple UN General Lewis Mackenzie:
Look at his statement:
He is TOTALLY AGAINGST Kosovo's recognition of Independence!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EzBEoBSUTU

Sorry, i have no intention of reading any of that since you are shouting...

You might even have written something really good, i guess i will never know..

[geni]

Darth Rotor,

this self_proclamed declaration of Independence of Kosovo recognised and backed so hard by the US in 2008
is very conected with the 1999 illegal NATO war againgst Yougoslava...

Yugoslavia? Hmm remember what happened when the KLA attacked Montenegro? How did NATO react? You sure war against Yugoslavia is a reasonable description?

[gtc]

Sorry, i have no intention of reading any of that since you are shouting...

You might even have written something really good, i guess i will never know..

That's a shame.

[NobbyNobbs]

FILM proving EVERYTHING you knew about KOSOVO was a LIE!

I got this far and stopped reading. I happen to know that Kosovo starts with a "K", and that's no lie.


Anybody who makes sweeping generalizations isn't playing with a full deck.

:D

[Spindrift]

Everything you knew about KOSOVO was a LIE!
USA and NATO manipulated us!


Everything I know about Kosovo is a LIE???

Kosovo's not in eastern Europe?
Kosovo wasn't part of Yugoslavia?
Kosovo isn't mostly muslim.

What else is a lie?

[FreeRomanian]

Of course, the meaning was:

Everything you were told on MEDIA: CNN...BBC your local news, in the papers... about Kosovo IS A LIE!
And I am sure you already know that,but you try to be mean.

And I am not shouting people!
The big letters are for emphathising the links!

[SonOfLaertes]

Of course, the meaning was:

Everything you were told on MEDIA: CNN...BBC your local news, in the papers... about Kosovo IS A LIE!
And I am sure you already know that,but you try to be mean.

And I am not shouting people!
The big letters are for emphathising the links!

Maybe so. But I have bad news on top of that problem. I'm afraid you have used up your thread quota of exclamation points. You will have to end your sentences with just periods and question marks for the duration of the thread. So why not settle down and present your evidence in a more thoughtful, less shallow manner?
If you do so you won't need all those exclamation points. And we might listen.

[Complexity]

Weren't the rats who started world war I serbian?

Troublemakers, I say.

Probably believe in homeopathy, christianity, and werewolves.

[Pardalis]

I'll always have a soft spot for Serbians (http://www.wallpapergate.com/data/media/390/Milla_Jovovich_012.jpg)...

[Nogbad]

I'll always have a soft spot for Serbians (http://www.wallpapergate.com/data/media/390/Milla_Jovovich_012.jpg)...

A fair point well presented

I think anybody who thinks anything in the Balkans is black and white is going to be disappointed. To be fair the Serbians were hardly the sole cause of the conflict after the break up of Yugoslavia with the Croatians playing a key role in the conflict too. It is true that in that war the Serbian Nationalists did some pretty awful things but Croatian forces were also involved in atrocities particularly in Northern Bosnia in the three way battle that erupted there.

Kosova is a case in point regarding population movements. It was a Serbian area with many historic churches and monastries but ethnic Albanians are now in the majority. Nothing much is going to change that and it is not easy to see how Kosova can remain in Serbia - painful though that might be to the Serbs who see the area as the birth of their national identity. The Albanians are not going to encourage Serbs back into the region. It is a bit like the Alamo rejoining Mexico because the majority of the population are now Spanish speaking ethnic Mexicans. One might argue that it is a logical step but there would be those who would object on territorial and historical integrity grounds.

Like it or not our intervention did not prevent ethnic cleansing - we simply helped the Albanian side in the task and set interesting precedents in international law.

[CHF]

Of course, the meaning was:

Everything you were told on MEDIA: CNN...BBC your local news, in the papers... about Kosovo IS A LIE!
And I am sure you already know that,but you try to be mean.

So there was no brutal counter-insurgency campaign against the KLA?

No massacres?

No burning of villages?

No 300,000 IDPs before the NATO bombing?

All made up, was it?

Granted, NATO inflated the actrocity claims against the Serbs, but I'm a little sick of this "Serbs were totally innocent" line of reasoning.

[Travis]

You might be interested in Noam Chomsky's Hegemony or Survival. He has a chapter in there almost entirely dedicated to talking about NATOs slanted view of the Serbs and Kosovars and some of the biases that come out in the media coverage.

I would recommend doing this only if you like to read books written by insane know nothing blowhards.

[dudalb]

I would recommend doing this only if you like to read books written by insane know nothing blowhards.

I would add "Unreconstructed Marxist" to that description of Chomsky.
Chomsky still is a defender of Pol Pot. That shoud sort of tell you anything he says is to be taken with about a ton of salt.

[Darth Rotor]

Darth Rotor,

this self_proclamed declaration of Independence of Kosovo recognised and backed so hard by the US in 2008 is very conected with the 1999 illegal NATO war againgst Yougoslava...

And stop offending people...

Nobody has ''foaming at the mouth''!
You offend me when you assume you know everything I know, and then pretend to educate me.

For one, I did not find the 1999 attack by NATO to be necessary, as I have never considered Albanian interests to be a primary American interest, and NATO could not do that thing without the Americans.

Nor do I find the support for this Albanian/Kosovar thugocracy, who are little better than Milosovic and his crowd in their attempts to ethnically cleanse an area, to be in American national interest.

The news in the past few years on how the international community turns its head when Serbs are the subject of attacks has been a testimony to a one sided and bigoted view of the difficulty between the Serbs and Kosovars.

But since you presume to know what everyone knows about this, and you then launch on a rant, you are both non credible and foaming at the mouth.

The shoe fits, mister, so you get to wear it.

Or, you are too dim to realize that mind reading skills across the internet ought to make you one million dollars richer.

I suggest you do a search on this forum, the JREF forums, for a thing called

The Million Dollar Challenge.

DR

[Nogbad]

I know little of this Chomsky you speak of but I do know a little about the role of the Croatians and Albanians in WW2 and the forced depopulation of Serbs in Kosovo during that period. To be fair there was an attempt to redress the balance under Tito, himself a Croat, but the Serbs went from about 90% of the population in Kosovo pre-Ottoman invasion to the 10% we see today.

None of this excuses the bullyboy tactics of Milosovic but it is impossible to understand the psychology of the Serbs and their reaction to these events without putting what they went through between 1914 and 1945 into context. This is not ancient history. Some of the people involved are still alive today.

I am sure most people here know that the Croats and Albanians were on the Axis side in WW2 and commited atrocities in places like Jasenovac that shocked the German and Italian observers/advisors.

[CHF]

None of this excuses the bullyboy tactics of Milosovic but it is impossible to understand the psychology of the Serbs and their reaction to these events without putting what they went through between 1914 and 1945 into context. This is not ancient history. Some of the people involved are still alive today.

I am sure most people here know that the Croats and Albanians were on the Axis side in WW2 and commited atrocities in places like Jasenovac that shocked the German and Italian observers/advisors.

Indeed, the atrocities of WWII at the hands of the Ustashe regime had an enormous effect on the psychology of the Serb nation - something the West failed to understand during the wars of the 1990s.

When Croatia and Bosnia split from Yugoslavia, it was seen by many Serbs as a re-emergence of WWII anti-Serb facism, led by Franco Turjman (sp?) - a Croat nationalist - and backed by Germany.

Serbia's paranoia resulted in a tendency to lash out at enemies with disproportionate force (made worse by the fact that the Serb-dominated JNA controlled most heavy weapons).

That, more than anything else, is what ultimately lost the war for Serbia. The destruction of Vukovar by JNA artillery in Novemeber 1991 cemented the Serbian reputation as the "bad guys" - a label they did their best to keep in Bosnia.

[WildCat]

I'll always have a soft spot for Serbians (http://www.wallpapergate.com/data/media/390/Milla_Jovovich_012.jpg)...
Milla Jovovich is Ukrainian, born in Kiev.

[Nogbad]

Milla Jovovich is Ukrainian, born in Kiev.

I think her Dad is a Serb though

[WildCat]

I think her Dad is a Serb though
I'm clearly not the Milla stalker you and Pardalis are... (hangs head in shame)

[The Kilted Yaksman]

From Wikipedia: "Jovovich was born in Kiev, Ukrainian SSR, Soviet Union, the daughter of Bogdan Bogdanovich Jovović, a Yugoslav pediatrician of Serbian-Montenegrin extraction [3] and Galina Loginova, a Soviet stage actress of ethnic Ukrainian-Russian descent."

[The Kilted Yaksman]

****

[FreeRomanian]

SAY 'NO' to ILLEGAL Independence of Kosovo!

The Vast Majority of the World has not recognised this illegal declaration of "independence"(more like USA-s satelite...) of KOSOVO!

Join them!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNmM-kTaCWM

[Pardalis]

Na.

[Gurdur]

... IS A LIE! ... And I am not shouting people!
The big letters are for emphathising the links!

FreeRomanian, I think it would be best if you wrote your posts in Rumanian. It will be fine, I am sure most of us here can read Rumanian, and if you wrote in Rumanian your message would be much clearer and flow better. It would really help you and us.

:)

[FreeRomanian]

For translations ROMANIAN-english or english - ROMANIAN
http://www.dictionare.com

Gurdur,
Thanks for the tip Shakespeare... ;)

In Romanian(you asked for it :) ):
Gurdur,
Multumesc pentru sfat Shakespeare... ;)

But have you ever heard of typing errors caused by the great speed of writing? Guess not...

You should better see the second part of the movie made by Western analists.
NATO's illegal War Against Serbia and USA Lies About Kosovo part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzEcpXcYE7A


By the way,the NATO summit is held near my home in BUCHAREST this year.


And now in Romanian:

Chiar, Summitul NATO de anul acesta se tine langa casa mea in BUCURESTI.

[NoZed Avenger]

You should better see the second part of the movie made by Western analists


I don't think we can actually link to those sorts of videos without a NSFW warning.

:eek:

[FreeRomanian]

NoZed Avenger, I don't understand what you are saying. What is "NSFW warning"?

Secondly, there's some new information on www.kosovo.ro

Proud to be Romanian!

Mandru sa fiu Roman!

www.kosovo.ro

www.kosovo.ro

[MarkCorrigan]

SAY 'NO' to ILLEGAL Independence of Kosovo!

The Vast Majority of the World has not recognised this illegal declaration of "independence"(more like USA-s satelite...) of KOSOVO!

Join them!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNmM-kTaCWM
Which nations don't support independance for Kosovo?

Those who are terrified this will happen to their own contested territory. Good to see you have some great human rights activist nations on your side, by the way; China, Sri Lanka, Russia....all the nations everyone looks for to defend the human rights that are endorsed by NATO.

Jesus Christ man, Serbia/Yugoslavia had its ownership of a large area that they supressed and now they're complaining that people aren't under their thumbs anymore. Cry me a river.

Maybe, just maybe, if they hadn't been KILLING KOSOVANS this wouldn't be an issue?

[BeAChooser]

Maybe, just maybe, if they hadn't been KILLING KOSOVANS this wouldn't be an issue?

Or maybe, just maybe, if the Clinton administration hadn't been playing games, this wouldn't be an issue.

Clinton and his spokespersons claimed the Yugoslav Government rejected all attempts to negotiate an agreement on the future of Kosovo. He told America the Rambouillet Accords had been offered to the Yugoslavs and rejected, leaving NATO no option but to start aerial bombardment. That is an outright lie. On March 15, 1999, meeting in Paris, the key parties had reached and signed an agreement. The agreement recognized "the need for democratic self-government in Kosmet (which includes Kosovo), including full participation of the members of all national communities in political decision making". The agreement offered literally everything demanded by the Kosovo community except the KLA (a group the Clinton administration had identified as a terrorist organization). The Paris Agreement was the work of moderates and would have effectively blocked the KLA goal: total secession of Kosovo and Metohija. It gave full internal autonomy to the Kosovars; a free press; unfettered access to international organizations; an independent assembly; an independent judiciary; full control over local (and locally-appointed) police; and much more. What was important was that this was an agreement which satisfied all the main communities actually living in Kosovo. With this already signed, was there justification for NATO's attack? I say no.

The truth is we tried to force a treaty down the throat of the Milosevic that no leader in the world would have signed. Having given the Serbs no choice but to reject the treaty, we then rained death on them because Albright, who is Albanian, assured Clinton (who was looking for a "legacy" other than his many crimes) that Milosevic would surrender after a few nights of bombing. But it didn't turn out that way.

Clinton and NATO bombed Serb TV, killing about a dozen people, and destroying several other civilian establishments in the process. "I think the broad message is that they [Serbs] should put pressure on their leadership to end this," said Ken Bacon, the Pentagon spokesman. According to Clinton, this target was "legitimate" because it was spreading Milosevic's propaganda. Of course, by that same logic, ABC, NBC, CNN, CBS and even PBS are legitimate targets. They "propagandized" by hyping the "evil" of Serbs while hiding the equally "evil" activities of the KLA and NATO.

NATO and the media claimed the use of Albanians as human shields. That was supposed to explain what happened at Korisa when NATO killed nearly a hundred Albanian refugees. Of course, there turned out to be no real evidence of this ... just the "word" of a few interviewed Albanian refugees (probably the same ones who told us that a Pristina stadium was being used as a concentration camp, that certain Albanian leaders were executed, that 20 school teachers were killed in front of their pupils, that the mayor of Aleksandrovac was lynched ... all which turned out to be untrue).

Just how reliable were refugee statements? Even when the convoy attack victims were told they had been bombed by NATO, they continued to blame the Serbs. No doubt civilians were being terrorised and killed by Yugoslav forces in Kosovo, just as Serbian civilians were being terrorised and killed by NATO's bombing and KLA actions. That's war. But the focus on unsubstantiated atrocities obscured the fact that the Serbs were justifiably fighting a military campaign against armed separatists.

Occasionally, this fact leaked through the media with mention of attacks on "KLA strongholds" or when a report on the killing of six "civilians" mentioned that one was a KLA member and another a strong KLA supporter. But it general, NATO and the media wanted the public to demonize rather than understand the serbs ... just as you do.

NATO massacred (there is no other word for it) nearly a 100 Albanians (mostly women and children) in a village in Kosovo using cluster bombs. After first denying it (they suggested as they always do that the Serbs did it), they finally had to admit that indeed a dozen or so bombs did "accidently" kill these people ... because they were camped next to a building that the Serbs had to have known was a target. Then NATO claimed that the Serbs were using the Albanians as "human shields". Most of the media ignored the interviews by western journalists inside Kosovo conducted with the survivors of the attacks. Those in Korisa said they'd come down from the mountains looking for food.

NATO "propaganda" was about the 100,000 missing Albanian men and the "mass grave" video (courtesy of those same KLA spokesmen who've been such "reliable" sources of information in the past). Evidence of genocide they say. Of course, the video had a variety of explanations. What was odd is that it showed individual graves which appear to follow Muslim traditions in the burial and there were many non-military people milling about. That's not what one expect from "butchers" who have no regard for their victims, their beliefs or their relatives, and who want to hide the bodies as quickly as possible.

Also, what about those 100,000 missing men? NATO said they were probably dead ... but they presented NO EVIDENCE. Why didn't they listen to Paul Watson, a Los Angeles Times correspondent who is IN Kosovo, that hundreds of young Albanian men were milling about in the town of Svetjle in Northern Kosovo. Watson had NO police or military or Serbian government escort when he interviewed them. They said that they'd been displaced by the fighting but were NOT molested by the Serbs. They said they had NOT been in concentration camps, forced labor or serving as human shields. They were waiting for their families to return. Interestingly enough, Watson noted that this village was one of those NATO "claims" was depopulated by those awful serbs through genocide. NATO lied.

Why didn't they listen to Jacky Rowland of the BBC? She wrote FROM PRISTINA that "Many displaced Kosovo Albanian refugees have settled in other parts of Kosovo, reportedly without harassment from the Serbian security forces." She also wrote that "Meanwhile, in the south we were unable to find any evidence of the tens of thousands of refugees who Nato alleges are being kept here by the security forces near the town of Urosevac."

Oh yes, another "story" told by NATO to explain the Korisa mistake away was that the Serbs must have moved all the military equipment that NATO said it was bombing out of the area before letting the western journalists in to see the site. Recall that those journalists didn't see ANY evidence of military equipment? Gee, one wouldd think it would be a little difficult to remove such evidence since the equipment would, after nearly a dozen bombs, have been in a million little pieces. Surely NATO would have satellite images of Serbs engaged in such a immaculate cleanup job ... unless NATO was claiming that it was accomplished in a few hours in the dark, which is of course was TOTALLY ridiculous. Another NATO lie.

The State Department said it had fresh evidence of mass killings in Kosovo. Geeeee, every other time NATO told us of "unconfirmed" atrocities they were proven false. Concentration camp soccer stadium? FALSE. Teachers murdered in front of students? FALSE. Rugova murdered? FALSE. Editor of Koha Ditore murdered? FALSE. Serbs slaughter refugees on highway? FALSE. Why didn't NATO confirm these things and then come to us and let us know? BECAUSE propaganda value was more important than truth to Clinton and NATO ... just as propaganda value is still more important to the folks who want us to violate the agreement we signed with the Serbs concerning the eventual disposition of Kosovo.

In general, the media did as one British correspondent did when he stood up at a NATO briefing and urged his fellow reporters not to ask Nato any "awkward" questions. To put it in simple terms, the war was designed to coverup the treason of Chinagate. Christopher Cox revealed to "Sam and Cokie" that he PERSONALLY BRIEFED Clinton on January 3, 1999 (the day of its classified release) on the contents of the Cox Report. That was TWO MONTHS before the Liar's denial ("I want you to listen to me...No one ever told me about possible Chinese espionage on my watch...never, not a single time...").

Notra Trulock, acting deputy of the Energy Department's Office of Intelligence, appeared before the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, and described repeated attempts in early 1997 to bring his concerns about espionage and lax security at weapons labs to then-Energy Secretary Federico Pena. He said that he was repeatedly thwarted by senior DOE officials, including Pena's deputy, Elizabeth Moler, and that Pena knew nothing of the espionage concerns for six months. Of course, NONE of this was ever reported by the mainstream media. They were too busy speculating about non-existant serbian genocide.

NATO kept making mistakes and killing civilians. We had the civilians killed in Aleksinac, the passengers on the bombed train, the NATO bombing of central Pristina, the Albanian refugees killed during the convoy attack, the people MURDERED in the Serb TV station (which was a clear violation of the Geneva Convention because it forbids SPECIFICALLY targeting civilians unless they take a DIRECT part in hostilities), the dead in the Belgrade residential neighborhood, the dead in Bulgaria, the dead in Montenegro and the 23 dead on the Kosovo civilian bus.

And the LIES from NATO just continued. Robin Cook told us that "Morale in Serbian forces is now poor." Just three days later, defence and intelligence officials in Washington said that the reverse was true. NATO bombing has reinvigorated and unified the Yugoslav army instead of crippling it. Independent journalists in Serbia confirmed this. Milosevic's military was stronger, not weaker, after 38 days of bombing.

We had NATO "hyping" its super bomb attack on a tunnel complex beneath an airfield as if that ended the threat from underground munition stockpiles. NATO should have read a little history. Tito built and stocked a vast number of caves, bunkers and fighting positions with war supplies. Those weapon stockpiles and the training of Serbian forces to fight a prolonged guerrilla type war, coupled with the terrain, made Yugoslavia a place to avoid. Even Stalin knew this! That is, unless you were prepared to violate the Geneva conventions and bomb the civilian populace into submission like NATO did.

Then we witnessed the news media in all out coverup mode to hide the truth about post war Kosovo. Below are just a few of the stories that were NOT reported by the liberal news media at all levels.

"NATO confirms, from its preliminary investigation, it appears that one of its aircraft mistakenly dropped a bomb on a civilian vehicle in a convoy yesterday" The serbs reported that a much bigger attack took place. Later NATO admitted that F16's did indeed attack two separate refugee convoys. Photos seem to show the convoys were hit by 9 to 12 smart bombs. So the Serbs told the truth! But then NATO tried to suggest that many of the refugee victims were machine-gunned by the Serbs. Unlikely, as suggested by one British reporter who observed the presense of furrows, along the attacked road, that are similar to those made by A-10 weaponry during the Gulf War. Indeed, the refugees were adament that the casualties were from an aircraft. They did not say it was soldiers with machine guns... they said a Serb aircraft. But I ask you, how many of these people would be able to distinguish between a Serb or NATO warplane ... especially since they wouldn't expect a NATO plane to attack them? How many would be able to tell that the bombs came from aircraft at 15000 feet? Again, at least one low level attack seems likely and General Leaf revealed that an A-10 (which are painted grey, by the way ... the same color some of the refugees said the attacking aircraft was) and/or a Harrier got low enough to see both military and civilians in the convoy and at that time the attack was called off. Since we now know that low level attack aircraft were in the area at the time of the incident, one might suspect they called off the attack only AFTER a portion of the refugee column had been straiffed. So .... NATO was again caught lying. One more point ... in the description of what happened, one of the pilots reported that the lead vehicle (which turns out to have been a tractor) was torching houses. In other words, it is not the Serbs who are burning homes but the Albanians as they fled! NATO's claim that the Serbs were responsible for all the burning villages in Kosovo is just another BIG LIE!

As Clinton proved (and now his wife if proving again), the more one lies, the more convoluted the lies have to become. When Cohen was asked by the Senate about the "mistake" in bombing the refugee convoy, he said the pilot only had seconds to make his bomb drop because he was under "heavy ground fire". What's this about ground fire ... at 15000 feet? That's NOT what the pilot said. Cohen's statement seems more like someone having trouble keeping all the lies straight. Perhaps that's why NATO says the pilot recording they played was NOT the actual recording of the attack on the convoy and that the reporters "misunderstood" what the recording represented. NATO's spokesman says it actually was just to "represent" what probably happened during the real attack.

This mean NATO or the Clinton administration fabricated the recording. Or perhaps the US mistakenly released a cockpit recording from another bombing mistake that they made and that was never reported? Another coverup? And that still leaves the question of who bombed the convoy. Accounts from reporters at the scene of the attack lent weight to the likelihood that it involved multiple NATO bombs, and that the attack even involved straffing of the refugees! Why is it that the United States blocked NATO from releasing the cockpit video of the attack on the refugee convoy. One reporter said that Nato officers suspect the film undermines the account of the raid given by US officials.

The LA Times reported that NATO bombers scored several direct hits on a graveyard, a bus station and a children's basketball court. The targets weren't mentioned when U.S. Gen. Wesley K. Clark, NATO's supreme commander, briefed reporters in Brussels on the air campaign's successes. I wonder why?

"Saturday, June 19, 1999 Serbian Orthodox churches and clergy in Kosovo have been attacked. The Holy Trinity Monastery near Prizen has been burned down and 13 other churches in the Veliko Hoca area destroyed, Reuters said." The American people weren't told occurrences like this.

Instead, the liberal press proclaimed "10,000 MASSACRED!", from the same sources that were telling us a few weeks earlier that there were 200,000 young Albanian men executed by the Serbs. NATO never did find 10,000 bodies so it was just inflammatory supposition.

For two days the liberal media filled the airways with reports of a Serb Torture Chamber. Of course, all the evidence they actually had of Serb involvement were the stories from KLA "managed" Albanians. But when NATO actually found hard evidence of a "Torture Chamber" run by the KLA, it did NOT get reported by any mainstream media outlet. German troops entered a police station and caught about 25 KLA members actively torturing a 70 year old Serb who was chained to a chair. He had been beaten for several hours before he died. On the ground were chains, knives and a baseball bat with a nail in it. The room was splattered with blood. In other rooms KFOR found 20 ELDERLY ALBANIANS, all of whom had been beaten during hours of interrogation. Most were so terrified they could not even speak. They had been accused of collaboration. Did the press report this? Of course not ... they were still spreading the serbian genocide LIES (like you are) fostered by Clinton and NATO.

Balkan governmental agencies, including the Albanian SHIK (Intelligence Agency), were convinced that the KLA was a Balkan conduit for Middle East terrorists and that its finances were derived from drug trafficking. Berliner Zeitung and the London Times linked "drug money with Kosovo rebels". Germany's Federal Criminal Agency concluded that "ethnic Albanians are now the most prominent group in the distribution of heroin in western consumer countries", the United States included. Jane's Intelligence Review warned that "Albanian criminal gangs were actively supporting the war in Kosovo." These are the people you are defending with your attempts to demonize serbs.

Fatos Klosi, head of the Albanian Intelligence Service, unequivocally revealed to The London Times the existence of "a network run by Osama bin Laden [that] has sent units to fight in the Serbian province of Kosovo." Greek security agencies confirmed "that bin Ladin had established his Albanian network as early as 1993". Macedonian officials also believed that bin Ladin and his associates were also instrumental in the financial and political implosion of Albania in 1997, when close to a billion dollars of hard-earned savings along with a million guns, vanished. These are the people you are defending with your attempts to demonize serbs.

"Three days after NATO troops refused a mother superior's pleas for protection, Kosovar rebels looted her monastery and raped a young nun, officials said yesterday. Mother Macaria drove to Pristina to plead with arriving British troops for protection for herself, a priest and nine nuns at Devic. But she was told that no protection was possible until NATO reinforcements arrived. Three days later the unguarded medieval monastery was raided by KLA members, French officers confirmed yesterday. The French gave few details but a spokesman for Serb Orthodox Patriarch Pavle said the guerrillas showed no mercy. "They desecrated the church, including the altar and icons, and humiliated the nuns." A 24-year-old nun was taken to a back room and raped. These are the people you are defending.

I find it interesting how democrats and the liberal media chose to ignore the FACT that at the start of WWII, Kosovo was over 60% Serb. Albania fought with the Axis powers and with Nazi help "ethnically cleansed" Kosovo of Serbs, killing 140,000. Over the years since then, it was the Albanians in Kosovo who had been doing the terrorizing and ethnic cleansing. Didn't you ever wonder how they became 90% of the populace? The answer is simple and documented ... by illegal immigration and by terrorizing the LEGAL serb citizens who lived there until they fled. Just like they continued to do AFTER the war ... only this time with NATO's help.<

There were all sorts of stories that our press and our government never bothered to report. Italian TV announced "English troops are exchanging fire with KLA who refuse to disarm in southern Kosovo" "The KLA abducted 3 persons near Belacevac mine. Six people managed to escape the abduction. One of those abducted was an ethnic Albanian." "In the capital Pristina, a patrol from the Parachute Regiment seized five KLA members - including a woman - after they came under fire from them. They had just killed a Serb man."

You want to talk about war crimes? Consider this. B1-B BOMBERS and F-16 warplanes dropped at least 1,000 cluster bombs on Kosovo, each containing 202 "bomblets". The generally accepted rule of thumb is that about five percent of "bomblets" fail to detonate, meaning there were as many as 10,000 unexploded bomblets lying on the ground in Kosovo. Note that in Iraq, another country subjected to this weapon, more civilians died from stepping on exploded bomblets since 1991 than died during the First Gulf War itself. Speaking of which, take a gander at these two quotes:

"...[W]e mourn the loss of two British soldiers who gave their lives trying to clear mines out of a house where they were placed solely to kill the returning refugees." --President Bill Clinton in Remarks to Operation Allied Force Troops at Aviano Air Base, Italy, 22 June 1999.<BR>

"British officers confirmed that two Gurkha Field Squadron explosives experts, who became NATO's first casualties of the Kosovo occupation, and two Kosovo Liberation Army soldiers were killed Monday while trying to destroy about 60 "bomblets" from cluster bombs that alliance warplanes had dropped on a rural school during an 11-week air war." --Mark Fineman and Valerie Reitman, The Los Angeles Times , 23 June 1999.

Clinton caught lying again! Aren't you proud that he was the leader of this travesty? And notice ... NATO BOMBED A SCHOOL! Wonder if any children were out playing at the time. Hard to tell from 30000 feet.

The following concerns a car that was shot up by NATO soldiers after it reportedly fired on them. CNN reported that NATO claimed that the passenger received assistance, saying "he's in a hospital but expected to die." ABC's Koppel put the lie to this by showing on camera that he died in the street without medical assistance. CNN ... NATO ... BOTH LIARS.

The excuse that NATO used for bombing Yugoslavians was that their government committed genocide against Albanians. But when pressed for "ethnic cleansing" numbers in a Senate Committee briefing, the Clinton administration stated that about 2000 people, including 700 Serbs, were killed in the year before the bombing.

Bill Clinton justified the bombing of Yugoslavians by referring to a "massacre" where Serbian police allegedly lined up Albanians in a ditch and shot them. The alleged incident occurred at Racak on January 15th when the Serbian police forces were accompanied for the entire day by an Associated Press TV crew and two journalists, who saw no such massacre. The television footage shows Serbian police entering an empty town that was controlled by the KLA, engaging in a fierce battle with the KLA, who were dug into hillside trenches and then withdrawing from the town in the afternoon. Remaining KLA members then returned to the town where no bodies were seen by them or the few citizens that were there. The bodies appeared with little blood or cartridges the next day in trenches.

The "massacre" was announced by Clinton administration official William Walker, whose account was denounced by French news sources, Le Figaro and Le Monde, based on the evidence they reported. Belarus and Finnish forensic experts who came to Yugoslavia could not verify the claims of massacre. Thus, America entered a war against Yugoslavians based on false reports about a staged event. The liberal press never told the public this.

Despite claims by some Albanian families that the Serb troops had looted electrical goods and personal possessions from their homes before leaving, there was no evidence in the convoys that any stolen goods were being taken back to Serbia. The withdrawal appeared to be conducted in an orderly and disciplined manner.

London Times, June 24, 1999 Author: Michael Evans reported that "NATO'S 79-day bombing campaign against Yugoslavia, which involved thousands of sorties and some of the most sophisticated precision weapons, succeeded in damaging only 13 of the Serbs' 300 battle tanks in Kosovo, despite alliance claims of large-scale destruction of Belgrade's heavy armour. It was claimed that up to 60 per cent of Serb artillery and mortar pieces had been hit and about 40 per cent of the Yugoslav Army's main battle tanks had been damaged or destroyed. However, before the Serbs finally withdrew three days ago, they informed Kfor that Nato had managed to hit 13 of the 300 or so tanks that they had deployed in Kosovo - most of which have been removed from the province on low-loaders. "What we have found is a huge number of dummy tanks and artillery," one Kfor source said. When the Serbs finally withdrew from the province, at least 250 tanks were counted out, as well as 450 armoured personnel carriers and 600 artillery and mortar pieces."

So, "in the three months of NATO's air assault, NATO dropped more explosives on Yugoslavia than on either Japan or Germany during any comparable period in World War II" ... and destroyed a dozen tanks. Wow!

If one we are to believe the liberal media, you'd think that Clinton and NATO won a great victory in the decision by Yugoslavia to accept the G8 Peace Agreement. Go read "The Paris Agreement of March 1999" which was signed, by the Yugoslavian government and ALL ethnic groups in Kosovo except the KLA, nearly two weeks BEFORE the bombing began. The G8 agreement promised the inhabitants of Kosovo nothing more than what was offered by the Serbs at Paris. In fact, given everything else the inhabitants of Kosovo lost as a result of NATO's bombing, they are undoubtedly be far worse off under the G8 agreement than if implementation of the Paris Agreement had been supported by NATO.

I also suggest you read the document Clinton and NATO tried to force Yugoslavia to sign at Rambouillet. Among other things, the terms of that document would have allowed NATO "free and unrestricted passage and unimpeded access throughout the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" and allowed them to "detain" Yugoslavians and turn them over to "appropriate officials". In other words, Rambouillet would have let NATO act as an occupying army. It also would have given Kosovo complete independence from Yugoslavia (a KLA demand) in 3 years. There's not one country in the entire world that would have signed under those conditions ... NOT ONE.

The Pentagon was openly stating that they expected the rest of the serb civilians in Kosovo to flee as the serb military withdrew. In fact Pentagon spokesperson Ken Bacon (who, by the way, should be under arrest for illegally releasing Linda Tripp's Pentagon records) made what can only be called a threat when he said "The fact of the matter is that I don't think that Kosovo is going to be a very happy place for Serbs". I ask YOU, who was doing the ethnic cleansing?

This war has destroyed the moral position of NATO and the US. It proved to Russia and everyone else that NATO is NOT a defensive alliance. After all, in order to wage this war, Clinton and NATO violated NATO's charter (attacking a sovereign country that is not part of NATO and which wasn't attacking any other country ... only waging a civil war within its national boundaries), the UN Charter, international law and US law (e.g., the War Powers Act). One can also make a case that NATO violated the Geneva Conventions on a number of occasions (such as targeting TV station personnel and bombing water plants) and, in violation of US law, tried to kill Milosevic by bombing his palace.

Another result of the war is that NATO created a new enemy. Many serbs now HATE us. According to some sources, the bombing killed over 2000 Yugoslav civilians, more than 200 of them children. The bombing was indiscriminate, killing farmers, suburbanites, city dwellers, factory workers, reporters, diplomats, people in cars, busses and trains, hospital patients, doctors, refugees, the elderly and children. NATO even killed several women who were IN THE PROCESS of giving birth! Of course NATO has only "admitted" killing about 460 civilians. According to NATO there were another 5000+ Yugoslavian parents who lost their son's (in what those parents must consider an "unprovoked attack" on their country). Furthermore, hundreds or even thousands more civilians certainly perished through environmental factors, such as poisoned water, lack of electricity and in insufficient fuel supplies during winter. There are also Yugoslavians who feel the West has now stolen "sacred ground" (i.e., Kosovo). Things like this can create a desire for revenge in people that no government force and no government largess can quell.

Or how about the non-reported fact that after attacking the bus on the bridge (killing scores of innocent people), NATO then attacked the ambulances (clearly marked as such) that went to the location to help the victims. This attack was filmed by a Greek TV News station but never shown to the American public. Sounds to me like NATO committed a WAR CRIME.

The CIA was estimating 10% casualties in any Kosovo ground war. That's a lot higher than anything told to the American People on the 6 o'clock "news" hour. That could have meant 15,000 dead. And that's 10% assuming nothing went wrong. Given how well NATO knew it was doing, no wonder they opted for killing civilians to win the war.

And finally, I didn't hear one word on the nightly news about Senator Inhofe's interviews with the Albanians refugees that have just arrived in the United States. They told him, on video tape, that things were fine BEFORE THE BOMBING.

We never should have started the war. Thousands more innocents died or suffered displacement and other horrors than otherwise would have! The war degraded our military, lowered our morale, sullied our national reputation and cost us a staunch allie (the Serb people).

If you want to know what sort of allie the Serbian people WERE, I suggest you read a book titled "The Forgotten 500".

[WildCat]

Or maybe, just maybe, if the Clinton administration hadn't been playing games, this wouldn't be an issue.
If the Serbs had reined in their troops and didn't start committing atrocities wholesale, NATO never would have gotten involved. In fact, there was great resistance to getting involved, as news stories documented prior to the bombings (http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kosovo98/ihtoped.shtml):

Despite this, NATO is now farther from taking action than it was a few months ago when the fighting was less intense. The U.S. government has expressed only mild criticism, mostly because the KLA had become an annoying threat that it could not control. Some diplomats in Kosovo are telling journalists that the West has turned a blind eye to the abuses in order to force the KLA to the negotiating table.

The U.S. position is aptly presented by Secretary of Defense Cohen who recently said that NATO "does not want to see" Yugoslav President Slobodon Milosevic's troops attacking civilians or using disproportionate force, but that NATO does not want to take action that "could be construed as lending support, either moral or military, to those seeking independence," meaning the KLA. The events of the last week show how the latter of these two concerns will take precedence over the former.

Such a position spells disaster for the people in Kosovo and the region. Milosevic's troops are committing serious abuses, and there is no indication that the atrocities will stop. Human rights groups have documented five villages where summary executions have taken place since February 1998. Hundreds of Albanians have been arrested and abused; many villages have been totally destroyed. The total death count remains unknown, but surely many civilians have died from indiscriminate artillery fire or sniper attacks.

[WildCat]

And let's not forget the Serb atrocities in Srebrenica: http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/blog/2005/07/srebrenica_the_1.html#

Looks like denying Serb atrocities are the next project of revisionist historians much as Holocaust denial is among others.

[mrbaracuda]

declaration of "independence"(more like USA-s satelite...) of KOSOVO!

Is it just me or has this just turned into another episode of "Why do you hate America?" :p

[MarkCorrigan]

And let's not forget the Serb atrocities in Srebrenica: http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/blog/2005/07/srebrenica_the_1.html#

Looks like denying Serb atrocities are the next project of revisionist historians much as Holocaust denial is among others.

You just don't get it WildCat, as long as AMERICA!!!!1!!1! or, in the case of the newer guy, CLINTON!!!1!!1!1! did something wrong, all other history goes out of the window. It doesn't MATTER that the Serbs slaughtered thousands of people because the US bombed the Serbs. Or something.

[FreeRomanian]

BeAChooser you are absolutely right!

I was sure there are also Amerisans who see the truth, eventhough USA -s government did the terrible injustice to my neighbour friend country Serbia, ripping a part of its teritory, Kosovo and handing it over to the albanian genocidal terorists!and bombing the civilians and killing thousands in the 1999 illegal war againgst former Yousoslavia.

You prove me I was right in thinking that.

God bless you "BeAChooser"!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MgCZan_ErQ

[mrbaracuda]

FreeRomanian, gotta say, you're creepy in a friendly way. :D

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
Or maybe, just maybe, if the Clinton administration hadn't been playing games, this wouldn't be an issue.

If the Serbs had reined in their troops and didn't start committing atrocities wholesale

I guess you didn't actually bother reading any farther in my post? :D

In fact, there was great resistance to getting involved, as news stories documented prior to the bombings:

Unfortunately, you link an article by Fred Abrahams that repeats some of the untruths that were told pre-war which I noted further down in the part of my post you apparently missed.

And note:

http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19990402/ige02078.html "April 2, 1999 ... The word `genocide' was first suggested by the US in a briefing as a way of describing Serb actions against Kosovar Albanians, when a State Department spokesman said: ``There are indicators that genocide is unfolding in Kosovo.'' ... snip ... "We have not called this genocide,'' said Fred Abrahams, Kosovo researcher for US-based Human Rights Watch. ``Everyone has talked about it, but no one has witnessed it,''Abrahams said.

And here's a post-war quote by Abrahams:

"We still don't have definite evidence to prove a policy of ethnic cleansing orchestrated by the top KLA leadership," said Fred Abrahams, a researcher for Human Rights Watch. "But there is definitely coordinated activity against Serbs at regional levels with KLA involvement. The KLA is not stopping it, and clearly there is not enough pressure from the West to make it stop."

[BeAChooser]

You just don't get it WildCat, as long as AMERICA!!!!1!!1! or, in the case of the newer guy, CLINTON!!!1!!1!1! did something wrong, all other history goes out of the window. It doesn't MATTER that the Serbs slaughtered thousands of people because the US bombed the Serbs. Or something.

I don't think you actually read my post either.

[Pardalis]

So is Milla Jovovich Serbian, Yougoslav, Ukranian or Russian?

[Elizabeth I]

Why is FreeRomanian all in a twist about Kosovo?

And I thought the rap against Albright was that she was a secret Jew and therefore not to be trusted. It turns out she's a secret Albanian too? My God, can nothing be depended upon, not even our bigotry?

[WildCat]

So is Milla Jovovich Serbian, Yougoslav, Ukranian or Russian?
She's 100% hot.

[WildCat]

I guess you didn't actually bother reading any farther in my post? :D
I actually did. Some of it's true, some not. Bombing is messy, and Clinton didn't want to send in ground troops.

The problem is, we saw the whole Serb act before in Bosnia. When that genocide was taking place (do you deny the slaughter at Srebrenica and other places?) people wondered why nothing was done to prevent it. In Kosovo, we didn't wait until tens of thousands were killed. The Serbs blew their credibility in Bosnia, they proved there what they were all about.

Funny how none of the Serb defenders want to talk about Bosnia...

Tell me, how long should one wait when a country that had committed atrocities just a few years prior is giving all the signs of doing so again? Should NATO have waited until it started? Until it was well along and ignored demands to pretty please stop? After it's completed?

Why should Serbia have been given any benefit of the doubt?

[Gurdur]

... {tons of weird stuff} ...

FreeRomanian, you would sound a lot better if you posted only in Rumanian, you really would.

... {tons and tons and tons of really weird stuff} ... .

tl;dr

You would sound better in Rumanian too, BeAChooser; and with only three of your posts your would have enough to have it published as a long book, though it would never make the best-seller lists.

Why is FreeRomanian all in a twist about Kosovo?
The moon? Neurotransmitters? Serbia is the last refuge of the Emo Kid CTers.

And I thought the rap against Albright was that she was a secret Jew and therefore not to be trusted. It turns out she's a secret Albanian too? My God, can nothing be depended upon, not even our bigotry?

Albright is probably Milla Jovovich, and an Albanian Jew Muslim black.

[steverino]

Or maybe, just maybe, if the Clinton administration hadn't been playing games, this wouldn't be an issue.

Clinton and his spokespersons claimed the Yugoslav Government rejected all attempts to negotiate an agreement on the future of Kosovo. He told America the Rambouillet Accords had been offered to the Yugoslavs and rejected, leaving NATO no option but to start aerial bombardment. That is an outright lie. On March 15, 1999, meeting in Paris, the key parties had reached and signed an agreement. The agreement recognized "the need for democratic self-government in Kosmet (which includes Kosovo), including full participation of the members of all national communities in political decision making". The agreement offered literally everything demanded by the Kosovo community except the KLA (a group the Clinton administration had identified as a terrorist organization). The Paris Agreement was the work of moderates and would have effectively blocked the KLA goal: total secession of Kosovo and Metohija. It gave full internal autonomy to the Kosovars; a free press; unfettered access to international organizations; an independent assembly; an independent judiciary; full control over local (and locally-appointed) police; and much more. What was important was that this was an agreement which satisfied all the main communities actually living in Kosovo. With this already signed, was there justification for NATO's attack? I say no.

The truth is we tried to force a treaty down the throat of the Milosevic that no leader in the world would have signed. Having given the Serbs no choice but to reject the treaty, we then rained death on them because Albright, who is Albanian, assured Clinton (who was looking for a "legacy" other than his many crimes) that Milosevic would surrender after a few nights of bombing. But it didn't turn out that way.

Clinton and NATO bombed Serb TV, killing about a dozen people, and destroying several other civilian establishments in the process. "I think the broad message is that they [Serbs] should put pressure on their leadership to end this," said Ken Bacon, the Pentagon spokesman. According to Clinton, this target was "legitimate" because it was spreading Milosevic's propaganda. Of course, by that same logic, ABC, NBC, CNN, CBS and even PBS are legitimate targets. They "propagandized" by hyping the "evil" of Serbs while hiding the equally "evil" activities of the KLA and NATO.

NATO and the media claimed the use of Albanians as human shields. That was supposed to explain what happened at Korisa when NATO killed nearly a hundred Albanian refugees. Of course, there turned out to be no real evidence of this ... just the "word" of a few interviewed Albanian refugees (probably the same ones who told us that a Pristina stadium was being used as a concentration camp, that certain Albanian leaders were executed, that 20 school teachers were killed in front of their pupils, that the mayor of Aleksandrovac was lynched ... all which turned out to be untrue).

Just how reliable were refugee statements? Even when the convoy attack victims were told they had been bombed by NATO, they continued to blame the Serbs. No doubt civilians were being terrorised and killed by Yugoslav forces in Kosovo, just as Serbian civilians were being terrorised and killed by NATO's bombing and KLA actions. That's war. But the focus on unsubstantiated atrocities obscured the fact that the Serbs were justifiably fighting a military campaign against armed separatists.

Occasionally, this fact leaked through the media with mention of attacks on "KLA strongholds" or when a report on the killing of six "civilians" mentioned that one was a KLA member and another a strong KLA supporter. But it general, NATO and the media wanted the public to demonize rather than understand the serbs ... just as you do.

NATO massacred (there is no other word for it) nearly a 100 Albanians (mostly women and children) in a village in Kosovo using cluster bombs. After first denying it (they suggested as they always do that the Serbs did it), they finally had to admit that indeed a dozen or so bombs did "accidently" kill these people ... because they were camped next to a building that the Serbs had to have known was a target. Then NATO claimed that the Serbs were using the Albanians as "human shields". Most of the media ignored the interviews by western journalists inside Kosovo conducted with the survivors of the attacks. Those in Korisa said they'd come down from the mountains looking for food.

NATO "propaganda" was about the 100,000 missing Albanian men and the "mass grave" video (courtesy of those same KLA spokesmen who've been such "reliable" sources of information in the past). Evidence of genocide they say. Of course, the video had a variety of explanations. What was odd is that it showed individual graves which appear to follow Muslim traditions in the burial and there were many non-military people milling about. That's not what one expect from "butchers" who have no regard for their victims, their beliefs or their relatives, and who want to hide the bodies as quickly as possible.

Also, what about those 100,000 missing men? NATO said they were probably dead ... but they presented NO EVIDENCE. Why didn't they listen to Paul Watson, a Los Angeles Times correspondent who is IN Kosovo, that hundreds of young Albanian men were milling about in the town of Svetjle in Northern Kosovo. Watson had NO police or military or Serbian government escort when he interviewed them. They said that they'd been displaced by the fighting but were NOT molested by the Serbs. They said they had NOT been in concentration camps, forced labor or serving as human shields. They were waiting for their families to return. Interestingly enough, Watson noted that this village was one of those NATO "claims" was depopulated by those awful serbs through genocide. NATO lied.

Why didn't they listen to Jacky Rowland of the BBC? She wrote FROM PRISTINA that "Many displaced Kosovo Albanian refugees have settled in other parts of Kosovo, reportedly without harassment from the Serbian security forces." She also wrote that "Meanwhile, in the south we were unable to find any evidence of the tens of thousands of refugees who Nato alleges are being kept here by the security forces near the town of Urosevac."

Oh yes, another "story" told by NATO to explain the Korisa mistake away was that the Serbs must have moved all the military equipment that NATO said it was bombing out of the area before letting the western journalists in to see the site. Recall that those journalists didn't see ANY evidence of military equipment? Gee, one wouldd think it would be a little difficult to remove such evidence since the equipment would, after nearly a dozen bombs, have been in a million little pieces. Surely NATO would have satellite images of Serbs engaged in such a immaculate cleanup job ... unless NATO was claiming that it was accomplished in a few hours in the dark, which is of course was TOTALLY ridiculous. Another NATO lie.

The State Department said it had fresh evidence of mass killings in Kosovo. Geeeee, every other time NATO told us of "unconfirmed" atrocities they were proven false. Concentration camp soccer stadium? FALSE. Teachers murdered in front of students? FALSE. Rugova murdered? FALSE. Editor of Koha Ditore murdered? FALSE. Serbs slaughter refugees on highway? FALSE. Why didn't NATO confirm these things and then come to us and let us know? BECAUSE propaganda value was more important than truth to Clinton and NATO ... just as propaganda value is still more important to the folks who want us to violate the agreement we signed with the Serbs concerning the eventual disposition of Kosovo.

In general, the media did as one British correspondent did when he stood up at a NATO briefing and urged his fellow reporters not to ask Nato any "awkward" questions. To put it in simple terms, the war was designed to coverup the treason of Chinagate. Christopher Cox revealed to "Sam and Cokie" that he PERSONALLY BRIEFED Clinton on January 3, 1999 (the day of its classified release) on the contents of the Cox Report. That was TWO MONTHS before the Liar's denial ("I want you to listen to me...No one ever told me about possible Chinese espionage on my watch...never, not a single time...").

Notra Trulock, acting deputy of the Energy Department's Office of Intelligence, appeared before the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, and described repeated attempts in early 1997 to bring his concerns about espionage and lax security at weapons labs to then-Energy Secretary Federico Pena. He said that he was repeatedly thwarted by senior DOE officials, including Pena's deputy, Elizabeth Moler, and that Pena knew nothing of the espionage concerns for six months. Of course, NONE of this was ever reported by the mainstream media. They were too busy speculating about non-existant serbian genocide.

NATO kept making mistakes and killing civilians. We had the civilians killed in Aleksinac, the passengers on the bombed train, the NATO bombing of central Pristina, the Albanian refugees killed during the convoy attack, the people MURDERED in the Serb TV station (which was a clear violation of the Geneva Convention because it forbids SPECIFICALLY targeting civilians unless they take a DIRECT part in hostilities), the dead in the Belgrade residential neighborhood, the dead in Bulgaria, the dead in Montenegro and the 23 dead on the Kosovo civilian bus.

And the LIES from NATO just continued. Robin Cook told us that "Morale in Serbian forces is now poor." Just three days later, defence and intelligence officials in Washington said that the reverse was true. NATO bombing has reinvigorated and unified the Yugoslav army instead of crippling it. Independent journalists in Serbia confirmed this. Milosevic's military was stronger, not weaker, after 38 days of bombing.

We had NATO "hyping" its super bomb attack on a tunnel complex beneath an airfield as if that ended the threat from underground munition stockpiles. NATO should have read a little history. Tito built and stocked a vast number of caves, bunkers and fighting positions with war supplies. Those weapon stockpiles and the training of Serbian forces to fight a prolonged guerrilla type war, coupled with the terrain, made Yugoslavia a place to avoid. Even Stalin knew this! That is, unless you were prepared to violate the Geneva conventions and bomb the civilian populace into submission like NATO did.

Then we witnessed the news media in all out coverup mode to hide the truth about post war Kosovo. Below are just a few of the stories that were NOT reported by the liberal news media at all levels.

"NATO confirms, from its preliminary investigation, it appears that one of its aircraft mistakenly dropped a bomb on a civilian vehicle in a convoy yesterday" The serbs reported that a much bigger attack took place. Later NATO admitted that F16's did indeed attack two separate refugee convoys. Photos seem to show the convoys were hit by 9 to 12 smart bombs. So the Serbs told the truth! But then NATO tried to suggest that many of the refugee victims were machine-gunned by the Serbs. Unlikely, as suggested by one British reporter who observed the presense of furrows, along the attacked road, that are similar to those made by A-10 weaponry during the Gulf War. Indeed, the refugees were adament that the casualties were from an aircraft. They did not say it was soldiers with machine guns... they said a Serb aircraft. But I ask you, how many of these people would be able to distinguish between a Serb or NATO warplane ... especially since they wouldn't expect a NATO plane to attack them? How many would be able to tell that the bombs came from aircraft at 15000 feet? Again, at least one low level attack seems likely and General Leaf revealed that an A-10 (which are painted grey, by the way ... the same color some of the refugees said the attacking aircraft was) and/or a Harrier got low enough to see both military and civilians in the convoy and at that time the attack was called off. Since we now know that low level attack aircraft were in the area at the time of the incident, one might suspect they called off the attack only AFTER a portion of the refugee column had been straiffed. So .... NATO was again caught lying. One more point ... in the description of what happened, one of the pilots reported that the lead vehicle (which turns out to have been a tractor) was torching houses. In other words, it is not the Serbs who are burning homes but the Albanians as they fled! NATO's claim that the Serbs were responsible for all the burning villages in Kosovo is just another BIG LIE!

As Clinton proved (and now his wife if proving again), the more one lies, the more convoluted the lies have to become. When Cohen was asked by the Senate about the "mistake" in bombing the refugee convoy, he said the pilot only had seconds to make his bomb drop because he was under "heavy ground fire". What's this about ground fire ... at 15000 feet? That's NOT what the pilot said. Cohen's statement seems more like someone having trouble keeping all the lies straight. Perhaps that's why NATO says the pilot recording they played was NOT the actual recording of the attack on the convoy and that the reporters "misunderstood" what the recording represented. NATO's spokesman says it actually was just to "represent" what probably happened during the real attack.

This mean NATO or the Clinton administration fabricated the recording. Or perhaps the US mistakenly released a cockpit recording from another bombing mistake that they made and that was never reported? Another coverup? And that still leaves the question of who bombed the convoy. Accounts from reporters at the scene of the attack lent weight to the likelihood that it involved multiple NATO bombs, and that the attack even involved straffing of the refugees! Why is it that the United States blocked NATO from releasing the cockpit video of the attack on the refugee convoy. One reporter said that Nato officers suspect the film undermines the account of the raid given by US officials.

The LA Times reported that NATO bombers scored several direct hits on a graveyard, a bus station and a children's basketball court. The targets weren't mentioned when U.S. Gen. Wesley K. Clark, NATO's supreme commander, briefed reporters in Brussels on the air campaign's successes. I wonder why?

"Saturday, June 19, 1999 Serbian Orthodox churches and clergy in Kosovo have been attacked. The Holy Trinity Monastery near Prizen has been burned down and 13 other churches in the Veliko Hoca area destroyed, Reuters said." The American people weren't told occurrences like this.

Instead, the liberal press proclaimed "10,000 MASSACRED!", from the same sources that were telling us a few weeks earlier that there were 200,000 young Albanian men executed by the Serbs. NATO never did find 10,000 bodies so it was just inflammatory supposition.

For two days the liberal media filled the airways with reports of a Serb Torture Chamber. Of course, all the evidence they actually had of Serb involvement were the stories from KLA "managed" Albanians. But when NATO actually found hard evidence of a "Torture Chamber" run by the KLA, it did NOT get reported by any mainstream media outlet. German troops entered a police station and caught about 25 KLA members actively torturing a 70 year old Serb who was chained to a chair. He had been beaten for several hours before he died. On the ground were chains, knives and a baseball bat with a nail in it. The room was splattered with blood. In other rooms KFOR found 20 ELDERLY ALBANIANS, all of whom had been beaten during hours of interrogation. Most were so terrified they could not even speak. They had been accused of collaboration. Did the press report this? Of course not ... they were still spreading the serbian genocide LIES (like you are) fostered by Clinton and NATO.

Balkan governmental agencies, including the Albanian SHIK (Intelligence Agency), were convinced that the KLA was a Balkan conduit for Middle East terrorists and that its finances were derived from drug trafficking. Berliner Zeitung and the London Times linked "drug money with Kosovo rebels". Germany's Federal Criminal Agency concluded that "ethnic Albanians are now the most prominent group in the distribution of heroin in western consumer countries", the United States included. Jane's Intelligence Review warned that "Albanian criminal gangs were actively supporting the war in Kosovo." These are the people you are defending with your attempts to demonize serbs.

Fatos Klosi, head of the Albanian Intelligence Service, unequivocally revealed to The London Times the existence of "a network run by Osama bin Laden [that] has sent units to fight in the Serbian province of Kosovo." Greek security agencies confirmed "that bin Ladin had established his Albanian network as early as 1993". Macedonian officials also believed that bin Ladin and his associates were also instrumental in the financial and political implosion of Albania in 1997, when close to a billion dollars of hard-earned savings along with a million guns, vanished. These are the people you are defending with your attempts to demonize serbs.

"Three days after NATO troops refused a mother superior's pleas for protection, Kosovar rebels looted her monastery and raped a young nun, officials said yesterday. Mother Macaria drove to Pristina to plead with arriving British troops for protection for herself, a priest and nine nuns at Devic. But she was told that no protection was possible until NATO reinforcements arrived. Three days later the unguarded medieval monastery was raided by KLA members, French officers confirmed yesterday. The French gave few details but a spokesman for Serb Orthodox Patriarch Pavle said the guerrillas showed no mercy. "They desecrated the church, including the altar and icons, and humiliated the nuns." A 24-year-old nun was taken to a back room and raped. These are the people you are defending.

I find it interesting how democrats and the liberal media chose to ignore the FACT that at the start of WWII, Kosovo was over 60% Serb. Albania fought with the Axis powers and with Nazi help "ethnically cleansed" Kosovo of Serbs, killing 140,000. Over the years since then, it was the Albanians in Kosovo who had been doing the terrorizing and ethnic cleansing. Didn't you ever wonder how they became 90% of the populace? The answer is simple and documented ... by illegal immigration and by terrorizing the LEGAL serb citizens who lived there until they fled. Just like they continued to do AFTER the war ... only this time with NATO's help.<

There were all sorts of stories that our press and our government never bothered to report. Italian TV announced "English troops are exchanging fire with KLA who refuse to disarm in southern Kosovo" "The KLA abducted 3 persons near Belacevac mine. Six people managed to escape the abduction. One of those abducted was an ethnic Albanian." "In the capital Pristina, a patrol from the Parachute Regiment seized five KLA members - including a woman - after they came under fire from them. They had just killed a Serb man."

You want to talk about war crimes? Consider this. B1-B BOMBERS and F-16 warplanes dropped at least 1,000 cluster bombs on Kosovo, each containing 202 "bomblets". The generally accepted rule of thumb is that about five percent of "bomblets" fail to detonate, meaning there were as many as 10,000 unexploded bomblets lying on the ground in Kosovo. Note that in Iraq, another country subjected to this weapon, more civilians died from stepping on exploded bomblets since 1991 than died during the First Gulf War itself. Speaking of which, take a gander at these two quotes:

"...[W]e mourn the loss of two British soldiers who gave their lives trying to clear mines out of a house where they were placed solely to kill the returning refugees." --President Bill Clinton in Remarks to Operation Allied Force Troops at Aviano Air Base, Italy, 22 June 1999.<BR>

"British officers confirmed that two Gurkha Field Squadron explosives experts, who became NATO's first casualties of the Kosovo occupation, and two Kosovo Liberation Army soldiers were killed Monday while trying to destroy about 60 "bomblets" from cluster bombs that alliance warplanes had dropped on a rural school during an 11-week air war." --Mark Fineman and Valerie Reitman, The Los Angeles Times , 23 June 1999.

Clinton caught lying again! Aren't you proud that he was the leader of this travesty? And notice ... NATO BOMBED A SCHOOL! Wonder if any children were out playing at the time. Hard to tell from 30000 feet.

The following concerns a car that was shot up by NATO soldiers after it reportedly fired on them. CNN reported that NATO claimed that the passenger received assistance, saying "he's in a hospital but expected to die." ABC's Koppel put the lie to this by showing on camera that he died in the street without medical assistance. CNN ... NATO ... BOTH LIARS.

The excuse that NATO used for bombing Yugoslavians was that their government committed genocide against Albanians. But when pressed for "ethnic cleansing" numbers in a Senate Committee briefing, the Clinton administration stated that about 2000 people, including 700 Serbs, were killed in the year before the bombing.

Bill Clinton justified the bombing of Yugoslavians by referring to a "massacre" where Serbian police allegedly lined up Albanians in a ditch and shot them. The alleged incident occurred at Racak on January 15th when the Serbian police forces were accompanied for the entire day by an Associated Press TV crew and two journalists, who saw no such massacre. The television footage shows Serbian police entering an empty town that was controlled by the KLA, engaging in a fierce battle with the KLA, who were dug into hillside trenches and then withdrawing from the town in the afternoon. Remaining KLA members then returned to the town where no bodies were seen by them or the few citizens that were there. The bodies appeared with little blood or cartridges the next day in trenches.

The "massacre" was announced by Clinton administration official William Walker, whose account was denounced by French news sources, Le Figaro and Le Monde, based on the evidence they reported. Belarus and Finnish forensic experts who came to Yugoslavia could not verify the claims of massacre. Thus, America entered a war against Yugoslavians based on false reports about a staged event. The liberal press never told the public this.

Despite claims by some Albanian families that the Serb troops had looted electrical goods and personal possessions from their homes before leaving, there was no evidence in the convoys that any stolen goods were being taken back to Serbia. The withdrawal appeared to be conducted in an orderly and disciplined manner.

London Times, June 24, 1999 Author: Michael Evans reported that "NATO'S 79-day bombing campaign against Yugoslavia, which involved thousands of sorties and some of the most sophisticated precision weapons, succeeded in damaging only 13 of the Serbs' 300 battle tanks in Kosovo, despite alliance claims of large-scale destruction of Belgrade's heavy armour. It was claimed that up to 60 per cent of Serb artillery and mortar pieces had been hit and about 40 per cent of the Yugoslav Army's main battle tanks had been damaged or destroyed. However, before the Serbs finally withdrew three days ago, they informed Kfor that Nato had managed to hit 13 of the 300 or so tanks that they had deployed in Kosovo - most of which have been removed from the province on low-loaders. "What we have found is a huge number of dummy tanks and artillery," one Kfor source said. When the Serbs finally withdrew from the province, at least 250 tanks were counted out, as well as 450 armoured personnel carriers and 600 artillery and mortar pieces."

So, "in the three months of NATO's air assault, NATO dropped more explosives on Yugoslavia than on either Japan or Germany during any comparable period in World War II" ... and destroyed a dozen tanks. Wow!

If one we are to believe the liberal media, you'd think that Clinton and NATO won a great victory in the decision by Yugoslavia to accept the G8 Peace Agreement. Go read "The Paris Agreement of March 1999" which was signed, by the Yugoslavian government and ALL ethnic groups in Kosovo except the KLA, nearly two weeks BEFORE the bombing began. The G8 agreement promised the inhabitants of Kosovo nothing more than what was offered by the Serbs at Paris. In fact, given everything else the inhabitants of Kosovo lost as a result of NATO's bombing, they are undoubtedly be far worse off under the G8 agreement than if implementation of the Paris Agreement had been supported by NATO.

I also suggest you read the document Clinton and NATO tried to force Yugoslavia to sign at Rambouillet. Among other things, the terms of that document would have allowed NATO "free and unrestricted passage and unimpeded access throughout the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" and allowed them to "detain" Yugoslavians and turn them over to "appropriate officials". In other words, Rambouillet would have let NATO act as an occupying army. It also would have given Kosovo complete independence from Yugoslavia (a KLA demand) in 3 years. There's not one country in the entire world that would have signed under those conditions ... NOT ONE.

The Pentagon was openly stating that they expected the rest of the serb civilians in Kosovo to flee as the serb military withdrew. In fact Pentagon spokesperson Ken Bacon (who, by the way, should be under arrest for illegally releasing Linda Tripp's Pentagon records) made what can only be called a threat when he said "The fact of the matter is that I don't think that Kosovo is going to be a very happy place for Serbs". I ask YOU, who was doing the ethnic cleansing?

This war has destroyed the moral position of NATO and the US. It proved to Russia and everyone else that NATO is NOT a defensive alliance. After all, in order to wage this war, Clinton and NATO violated NATO's charter (attacking a sovereign country that is not part of NATO and which wasn't attacking any other country ... only waging a civil war within its national boundaries), the UN Charter, international law and US law (e.g., the War Powers Act). One can also make a case that NATO violated the Geneva Conventions on a number of occasions (such as targeting TV station personnel and bombing water plants) and, in violation of US law, tried to kill Milosevic by bombing his palace.

Another result of the war is that NATO created a new enemy. Many serbs now HATE us. According to some sources, the bombing killed over 2000 Yugoslav civilians, more than 200 of them children. The bombing was indiscriminate, killing farmers, suburbanites, city dwellers, factory workers, reporters, diplomats, people in cars, busses and trains, hospital patients, doctors, refugees, the elderly and children. NATO even killed several women who were IN THE PROCESS of giving birth! Of course NATO has only "admitted" killing about 460 civilians. According to NATO there were another 5000+ Yugoslavian parents who lost their son's (in what those parents must consider an "unprovoked attack" on their country). Furthermore, hundreds or even thousands more civilians certainly perished through environmental factors, such as poisoned water, lack of electricity and in insufficient fuel supplies during winter. There are also Yugoslavians who feel the West has now stolen "sacred ground" (i.e., Kosovo). Things like this can create a desire for revenge in people that no government force and no government largess can quell.

Or how about the non-reported fact that after attacking the bus on the bridge (killing scores of innocent people), NATO then attacked the ambulances (clearly marked as such) that went to the location to help the victims. This attack was filmed by a Greek TV News station but never shown to the American public. Sounds to me like NATO committed a WAR CRIME.

The CIA was estimating 10% casualties in any Kosovo ground war. That's a lot higher than anything told to the American People on the 6 o'clock "news" hour. That could have meant 15,000 dead. And that's 10% assuming nothing went wrong. Given how well NATO knew it was doing, no wonder they opted for killing civilians to win the war.

And finally, I didn't hear one word on the nightly news about Senator Inhofe's interviews with the Albanians refugees that have just arrived in the United States. They told him, on video tape, that things were fine BEFORE THE BOMBING.

We never should have started the war. Thousands more innocents died or suffered displacement and other horrors than otherwise would have! The war degraded our military, lowered our morale, sullied our national reputation and cost us a staunch allie (the Serb people).

If you want to know what sort of allie the Serbian people WERE, I suggest you read a book titled "The Forgotten 500".

You got cliff notes on this?


(Hey Gurdur.:))

[BeAChooser]

It turns out she's a secret Albanian too?

Sorry, I was mistaken about that. She is not Albanian. She was born Czech. And I suppose if anything, one could almost call her a Serb since she spent much of her childhood in Serbia. Her maiden name was Korbel and the Korbels moved to Belgrade when she was two years old (http://www.slate.com/id/1048/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/govt/admin/stories/albright020497.htm ). They fled to London in 1939 then returned to Belgrade a few years after the war. They left again in 1948 when the communists took over. And by the way, according to the first link above "According to the New York Times, Albright told White House officials preparing for her confirmation hearings in December that she suspected her grandparents had been Jewish." So I don't think she's a "secret" anything.

In any case, she sure was friendly with Albanians back in 1999. Maybe that's why I thought she was Albanian. As an example, take this 1999 photo of her kissing a man:

http://www.kosovo.net/koss05.jpg

The man is Hashim Thaci ... ex-commander of the KLA ... who became the provisional leader of Kosovo after the Serbs signed UN Resolution 1244 and withdrew. Remember, at the time the KLA was labeled a terrorist organization by the US. Remember, at the time, Interpol said the KLA was the largest source of heroin in Europe. Indeed, Jerry Seper reported in the Washington Times that some members of the KLA were trained in terrorist camps run by international fugitive Osama bin Laden. Seper wrote: "Recently obtained intelligence documents show that drug agents in five countries, including the United States, believe the KLA has aligned itself with an extensive organized crime network centered in Albania that smuggles heroin and some cocaine to buyers throughout Western Europe and, to a lesser extent, the United States." and "The Greek representative of Interpol reported in 1998 that Kosovo's ethnic Albanians were 'the primary sources of supply for cocaine and heroin in that country.'" and "France's Geopolitical Observatory of Drugs said that the KLA was a key player in the rapidly expanding drugs-for-arms business and helped transport $2 billion worth of drugs annually into Western Europe. German drug agents have estimated that $1.5 billion in drug profits is laundered annually by Kosovo smugglers, through as many as 200 private banks or currency-exchange offices."

Now according to this (http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:Djp5x2j0LhIJ:www.globalresearch.ca/index.php%3Fcontext%3Dva%26aid%3D259+Madeleine+Alb right+Hashim+Tachi&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us ) a Russian General named Leonid Ivashov testified that "he listened in to a conversation in March 1999 of US Secretary of State Madeline Albright encouraging Hashim Tachi to incite a rebellion in Kosovo." That was well before NATO bombing began. Furthermore, this (http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:lAJMg4bd3V4J:www.unmikonline.org/press/2004/mon/nov/lmm241104.pdf+Albright+Hashim+Tachi+Ivashov&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us ) states "The witness (BAC - that would be Ivashov) also told the court that former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright had personally promised KLA leader Hashim Tachi that there would be a referendum on independence for Kosovo if the guerrilla organization agreed to foreign troops being deployed in the province."

Now let's review the terms of UN Resolution 1244. Kosovo was to remain the sovereign territory of Serbia. As an interim security measure, NATO troops were to enter Kosovo to supervise the withdrawal of Serbian security forces, oversee the disarmament of the Kosovo Liberation Army and protect the Serbian minority from revenge attacks at the hands of the returning 800,000 ethnic Albanians who had fled the fighting. Once the Albanian fighters had been disarmed and a secure environment was restored, Serbian border police were to return to Kosovo along with some Serb security forces to protect Orthodox Christian religious sites from Albanian vandals.

Note that the Serb's kept their side of the agreement. They peacefully withdrew. Every single item in bold, however, was not carried out. The KLA was not disarmed. The Serbian minority was not protected. The KLA (renamed the KPC) forced 200,000 Serbs to flee the region. And that happened with 50,000 NATO troops in the country watching it happen. The Serbian border police have not been allowed to protect Orthodox Christian sites. On the contrary, NATO has allowed numerous Christian churches to be destroyed under its watch. And now, to cap it all, the US and NATO are letting the KLA (excuse me, the KPC) declare Kosovo independent of Serbia.

No wonder the Serbs are angry. But I guess the Serbs should have expected this would happen since the US and NATO had already shredded international law by intervening in the region in the first place. And if the above information on Albright is true, then the US planned to break the agreement from the very beginning. Perhaps the lesson being taught here is that the US doesn't abide by the agreements it signs so why should anyone else? Maybe I've been a little too hard on Saddam for not abiding by the agreement he signed with us after the first Gulf War. :)

[Architect]

Oh for heaven's sake....

I forgot that the Serbs were such nice people. I must remember and mention this to the Bosnians and the Croats, the next time I meet them.

Mods, can we have this moved to AAH because it's just descending into two sides ranting at each other, plus FreeRomanian's continual shouting.

[FreeRomanian]

Arhictect, that is IRELEVANT and OFF topic.

We are talking STRICTLY about KOSOVO here.
Bosnia is another matter.

What I am saying here, and you all can see the proof in the MOVIE attached in the first message of the thread, is that SERBS DID NOT COMMIT GENOCIDE IN KOSOVO!

But ALBANIANS did commit genocide! Otherwhise, how do you explain that fro,m 1999 till 2008 almost ALL non-albanians left KOSOVO? Because of the serbs? Come on... serbs lost control of kosovo after NATO bombing... ;)

Open youe eyes and see the Thruh, because you are intoxicated by USA's propaganda about evil serbs and good helpless albanian lambs...

[FreeRomanian]

Arhictect, that is IRELEVANT and OFF topic.

We are talking STRICTLY about KOSOVO here.
Bosnia is another matter.

What I am saying here, and you all can see the proof in the MOVIE attached in the first message of the thread, is that SERBS DID NOT COMMIT GENOCIDE IN KOSOVO!

But ALBANIANS did commit genocide! Otherwhise, how do you explain that fro,m 1999 till 2008 almost ALL non-albanians, not only serbs, but all other ethnic groups left KOSOVO? Because of the serbs? Come on... serbs lost control of kosovo after NATO bombing... ;)

Open youe eyes and see the Thruh, because you are intoxicated by USA's propaganda about evil serbs and good helpless albanian lambs...

[Ysidro]

Oh for heaven's sake....

I forgot that the Serbs were such nice people. I must remember and mention this to the Bosnians and the Croats, the next time I meet them.

Mods, can we have this moved to AAH because it's just descending into two sides ranting at each other, plus FreeRomanian's continual shouting.

Serbs are nice people. And Serbs are not nice people. But I'm not giving them any leeway (says the man who is proud of having Serb blood via his paternal grandmother!) when it comes to relations with their neighbors.

[CHF]

FreeRomanian, BeAChooser...

During the wars of the 1990s, did the Serbs ever do anything wrong in your opinion?

If so, what was it?

[CHF]

What I am saying here, and you all can see the proof in the MOVIE attached in the first message of the thread, is that SERBS DID NOT COMMIT GENOCIDE IN KOSOVO!
But ALBANIANS did commit genocide! Otherwhise, how do you explain that fro,m 1999 till 2008 almost ALL non-albanians, not only serbs, but all other ethnic groups left KOSOVO?

So the Albanians did commit "genocide" because Serbs have fled Kosovo since 1999? Interesting...

According to that logic, the Serbs must also have committed "genocide" in 1999 when 800,000 Albanians fled Kosovo.

Or does fleeing ones home only equal genocide when Serbs are the victims?

[BeAChooser]

do you deny the slaughter at Srebrenica and other places?

Well perhaps there is more to the story than what you find in wikipedia. Afterall ... we see the way NATO and the press misrepresented what happened in Kosovo and Serbia ... perhaps they misrepresented what happened in that earlier conflict.

http://www.counterpunch.org/johnstone10122005.html "October 12, 2005, Using War as an Excuse for More War, Srebrenica Revisited By DIANA JOHNSTONE ... snip ... how much do "we" really know about it now? We know what we read in the newspapers or see on television. But how precise and accurate is that information? How do we know now that we are much better informed than we were before the event? Such questions are virtually taboo. Srebrenica has become a sacred symbol of collective guilt, and to raise the slightest question is to be instantly condemned as an apologist for frightful crimes , or as a 'holocaust denier'."

Just like you are trying to do here on this thread to me.

And Diana Johnstone goes on to give some of the counterbalancing facts.

First, it seems the idea of a "Srebrenica massacre" was already being discussed long before it occurred. In a September 1993 meeting in Sarajevo between Bosnian Muslim president Alija Izetbegovic and members of his Muslim party from Srebrenica a proposal was made to exchange Srebrenica and Zepa for some territories around Sarajevo as part of a peace settlement. But the delegation opposed the idea. Why? Johnstone quotes a source stating that "some surviving members of the Srebrenica delegation have stated that President Izetbegovic also told them he had learned that a NATO intervention in Bosnia and Herzegovina was possible, but could only occur if the Serbs were to break into Srebrenica, killing at least 5,000 of its people." Could it be, Johnstone wonders, that Izetbegovic's strategy "was to portray his Muslim side in the bloody civil war as pure helpless victims, in order to bring U.S. military power in on his side"? The facts outlined in her article would suggest that was indeed the case. She even quotes Izetbegovic admitting that the accusations he made of "'extermination camps" in Bosnia were false.

Johnstone also notes that "like the Bosnian Serbs, the Muslims also herded their adversaries into "horrible" camps at the start of the civil war, on the way to expulsion." The news media, however, didn't report this. They hardly mentioned Muslim atrocities like the decapitation of Serb prisoners. They ignored a massacre near Bratunac in 1992 in which many Serb civilians were killed. Instead they mostly exaggerated Serb atrocities. Johnstone states "To the public, this was a one-sided conflict between a Serbian 'fascist aggressor' and innocent victims, all unarmed civilians. The general public did not know that Srebrenica, described as a "safe area", was not in fact simply a haven for refugees, but also a Muslim military base."

According to Johnstone, "the Bosnian Serbs held the young Muslim commander in Srebrenica, Naser Oric, responsible for a massacre near Bratunac". Furthermore, Milosevic apparently knew that if Bosnian Serbs took Srebrenica, there would likely be retribution for that act and that such an act would be "disastrous for the Serbs." And apparently he tried to prevent that from happening.

Another fact overlooked in the haste to demonize the Serbs is that "shortly before the Bosnian Serb attack on Srebrenica, the Muslim troops stationed in that enclave carried out murderous attacks on nearby Serb villages." And the "Muslim high command in Sarajevo ordered the Srebrenica commanders, Oric and his lieutenants, to withdraw from Srebrenica, leaving thousands of his soldiers without commanders, without orders, and in total confusion when the foreseeable Serb attack occurred."

Johnstone points out that documents show orders to the forces that captured Srebrenica were to treat the population and prisoners in accordance with the Geneva Convention. But that didn't happen precisely because of events that had preceded the capture ... events that the press accounts mostly failed to mention to the public at large. For example, "[T]estifying at the International Criminal Tribunal in The Hague, General Morillon stressed that the Muslim commander in Srebrenica, Naser Oric, 'engaged in attacks during Orthodox holidays and destroyed villages, massacring all the inhabitants. This created a degree of hatred that was quite extraordinary in the region ... snip ... Asked by the ICTY prosecutor how Oric treated his Serb prisoners, General Morillon, who knew him well, replied that 'Naser Oric was a warlord who reigned by terror in his area and over the population itself. I think that he realized that these were the rules of this horrific war, that he could not allow himself to take prisoners. According to my recollection, he didn't even look for an excuse. It was simply a statement: One can't be bothered with prisoners.' Morillon recounted how "the Serbs took me to a village to show me the evacuation of the bodies of the inhabitants that had been thrown into a hole, a village close to Bratunac. ... snip ... "I feared that the Serbs, the local Serbs, the Serbs of Bratunac, these militiamen, they wanted to take their revenge for everything that they attributed to Naser Oric. It wasn't just Naser Oric that they wanted to revenge, take their revenge on, they wanted to revenge their dead on Orthodox Christmas."

So you see, perhaps there is more to the story than you've been told.

And Johnstone goes on to note that when the Bosnian Serbs captured the town, "civilians were clamoring to leave the enclave, understandably enough, since there was virtually no normal economic life there. Much has been made of the fact that Serb forces separated the population, providing buses for women, children and the infirm to take them to Tuzla, while detaining the men. In light of all that preceded, the reason for this separation is obvious: the Bosnian Serbs were looking for the perpetrators of raids on Serb villages, in order to take revenge."

Now that situation isn't all that different than our Marines not allowing men to leave Fallujah because we didn't want the terrorists to easily escape. Is it.

Johnstone continues "However, only a relatively small number of Muslim men were detained at that point, and some of them are known to have survived and eventually been released in exchange for Serb prisoners. When the Serb forces entered the town from the south, thousands of Muslim soldiers, in disarray because of the absence of commanding officers, fled northwards, through wild wooded hills toward Tuzla. It is clear enough that they fled because they feared exactly what everyone aware of the situation dreaded: that Serb soldiers would take vengeance on the men they considered guilty of murdering Serb civilians and prisoners. Thousands of those men did in fact reach Tuzla, and were quietly redeployed. This was confirmed by international observers. However, Muslim authorities never provided information about these men, preferring to let them be counted among the missing, that is, among the massacred. Another large, unspecified number of these men were ambushed and killed as they fled in scenes of terrible panic. This was, then, a "massacre", such as occurs in war when fleeing troops are ambushed by superior forces."

Much like we did in the First Gulf War on the Highway of Death.

As far as the number killed is concerned, Johnstone notes that "the figure of 8,000 originated with September 1995 announcements by the International Committee of the Red Cross that it was seeking information about some 3,000 men reportedly detained as well as about some 5,000 who had fled to central Bosnia. Neither the Bosnian Serbs nor the Muslims were ever forthcoming with whatever information they had, and the '8,000' figure has tended ever since to be repeated as an established total of 'Muslim men and boys executed by Serb forces'. It can be noted that this was always an estimate, the sum of two separate groups, the smaller one of prisoners (whose execution would be a clear war crime) and the larger one of retreating troops (whose "massacre" as they fled would be the usual tragic consequence of bitter civil war)."

And it turns out that "despite unprecedented efforts over the past ten years to recover bodies from the area around Srebrenica, less than 3,000 have been exhumed, and these include soldiers and others-Serb as well as Muslim-who died in the vicious combats that took place during three years of war."

So was there really a "massacre"?

Were Milosevic and Serbia (proper) really responsible for whatever did actually happen in Srebrenica?

The answer to those two questions clearly isn't as clear cut as you would have us believe, Wildcat. And Johnstone's article contains many more facts and logic that lead me to believe Milosevic and his country were made the fall guys by Clinton, the US and NATO ... who had their own agendas to fulfill.

As Johnstone queries, "what plan for genocide includes offering safe passage to women and children? And if this was all part of a Serb plot to eliminate Muslims, what about all the Muslims living peacefully in Serbia itself, including thousands of refugees who fled there from Bosnia? Or the Muslims in the neighboring enclave of Zepa, who were unharmed when the Serbs captured that town a few days after capturing Srebrenica?"

Even so, "[I]n August 2001 the Tribunal found Bosnian Serb General Radislav Krstic guilty of "complicity in genocide". Although he neither ordered, participated in or was even aware of any executions, the judges ruled that he took part in what the ICTY calls a "joint criminal enterprise" simply by capturing Srebrenica, since he must have been aware that genocide was 'a natural and foreseeable consequence'." He was sentenced to 35 years in prison and will be eligible for parole in 20 years.

What a unfair world we live in when judges and lawyers, who certainly have agendas of their own, rule the roost and will go to ANY length to get a conviction that furthers that agenda. Just read what Johnstone has to say about Drazen Erdemovic, the ICTY's star witness in those war crime trials. Erdemovic, a Bosnian Croat, claimed he was in the Bosnian Serb Army. He claimed to have been 1 of 8 who murdered 1200 civilians (only about a 100 bodies were actually found where he claimed this event occurred). Note that he was exempted from cross-examination, deemed by the court to be "mentally unstable" and released after less than five years in jail (for cooperation), given a new identity, a residence in a Western country and a job. Maybe we should make such an generous offer to all mass murderers and call it Neo-Western Justice. :)

[BeAChooser]

And note that Johnstone isn't the only one now questioning what really happened at Srebrenica.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55467 "Was 'Srebrenica genocide' a hoax?, May 01, 2007, By Aleksandar Pavic ... snip ... Belgrade-based historian and researcher, Milivoje Ivanisevic, who has been documenting Yugoslavian civil war casualties for more than a decade, has recently challenged the claims in a new booklet, "The Srebrenica Identity Card," which documents hundreds of bodies buried at the Srebrenica Memorial that were not killed in July 1995, when the alleged genocide took place, including cases of people who died natural deaths a full 13 years before the event took place. ... snip ... According to Ivanisevic, as of March 2007, more than 12 years after the event, a total of 2,442 bodies have been buried at the Memorial. Among those, a total of 914, or over 37 percent, were on the voting lists for the 1996 elections in Bosnia – over a year after the alleged "genocide." The voting lists themselves were approved and checked by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, which supervised the elections. A second even more significant find involves the fact that "at least 100 people" buried at the Memorial died of natural causes. ... snip ... Thirdly, Ivanisevic charges that several hundred soldiers as well as civilians were transferred to the Srebrenica Memorial from other cemeteries and reburied, with Muslim burial rituals. ... snip ... Fourth, using captured records of the Bosnian Muslim Army, Ivanisevic lists more than a dozen names of soldiers whose families were granted housing and social benefits due to families of soldiers killed in action before Nov. 11, 1993, when the documents were captured by Bosnian Serb army forces. Fifth, on the basis of similarly captured documents, Ivanisevic provides several dozen names of Bosnian Muslim army fighters killed before March 7, 1994. Ivanisevic goes on to provide names of Bosnian Muslim soldiers buried at the Srebrenica Memorial who were implicated in numerous massacres of Serbian civilians in the vicinity between 1992-1995, in which a total of over 3,000 Serbs were killed. Interestingly, the commander of the Srebrenica Bosnian army forces, Naser Oric, was given a two-year sentence by the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia, or ICTY, in June 2006 for his participation in these killings, some of which he captured on video and showed to Washington Post reporter John Pomfret, who visited him inside the "U.N. Safe Zone" in 1994."

So again, we find evidence that suggest things are not as cut and dry as you want us to believe.

The WorldNetDaily article also mentions the results of the "Srebrenica Research Group," which is "composed of mostly American and British media and academic figures, as well as former U.N. civil officials and military observers with ex-Yugoslavia experience." The Srebrenica Research Group found that "[i]nstead of the 7-8,000 figure, U.N. officials and U.S. Congress experts were quoted giving figures of '700-800,' 'the low hundreds,' 'about 2,000 Muslims and Serbs total,' etc. Henry Wieland, head of the U.N. Human Rights Commission, who spent days interviewing Srebrenica refugees in July 1995, is quoted as saying that he did not find 'anyone who'd seen any atrocity committed with their own eyes.'" And guess what? "The forensic findings were taken to task as well, with claims that the entire process of excavation and identification of bodies was controlled by an organization founded by the late Bosnian Islamist leader, Alija Izetbegovic."

Well, well, well. :D

[BeAChooser]

Here's what the Srebrenica Research Group says directly:

http://www.srebrenica-report.com/press.htm "July 12, 2005, Researchers and Former UN Officials Challenge Portrayal of Events at Srebrenica ... snip ... On the tenth anniversary of the capture of Srebrenica, two former senior UN officials, along with a group of journalists and academic researchers, cast serious doubt on what they say are 'highly inflated casualty figures and a misleading portrayal of events by governments, non governmental organizations and major news organizations.' ... snip ... The premise that Serbian forces executed 7,000 to 8,000 people “was never a possibility,” according to former BBC journalist Jonathan Rooper, who has investigated the events that followed the capture of Srebrenica on site and through official records over many years, and whose findings are presented in the upcoming report of the Srebrenica Research Group. ... snip ... These figures make it clear that at least 38,000 Srebrenica residents survived out of a population of 40,000 before the capture of the enclave. Around 2000 Muslims who fled with the 28th division were killed, most by fighting, but also hundreds executed by paramilitary units and a mercenary group."

Furthermore, "Despite signing the demilitarization agreement, Bosnian Muslim forces in Srebrenica were well armed and under orders to engage in provocations (“sabotage operations”) against Serbian forces. Muslim General Sefer Halilovic confirmed in his testimony at the Hague Tribunal that there were at least 5500 members of the Muslim 28th division in Srebrenica and that he had arranged at least eight helicopter loads of sophisticated weapons. He also testified that 'in those days [immediately before the capture of Srebrenica], there were a large number of orders for sabotage operations from the safe areas.'"

And "Instead of defending the town with a force of 5500 well armed soldiers, the Bosnian Army 28th Division was ordered to evacuate Srebrenica two days before a small force of 200 Bosnian Serb forces (according Muslim General Halilovic and the London Times) entered the nearly empty town on July 11. By provoking the Serbs to enter Srebrenica unopposed, Bosnian President hoped to trigger NATO intervention. ... snip … Military resistance would jeopardize the image of ‘victim’, which had been so carefully constructed, and which the Muslims considered vital to maintain.”

And there's more. "The International Criminal Tribunal on Yugoslavia (ICTY) whose staff had been largely appointed by Madeleine Albright, then US Ambassador to the United Nations, acknowledged political considerations when they issued indictments for genocide against Bosnian Serb leaders in on July 27, only three days after their chief investigator Hubert Wieland told the Daily Telegraph that in five days of interviews with scores among the 20,000 refugees gathered at the Tuzla airport: 'We have not found anyone who saw with their own eyes an atrocity taking place.' Richard Holbrooke candidly told the BBC 'I realized that the War Crimes Tribunal was a very valuable tool. We used it to keep the two most wanted war criminals in Europe out of the Dayton process and we used it to justify everything that followed.'* What followed were trial proceedings in which witnesses who received leniency if they agreed to provide testimony sought by the Hague prosecution to justify indictments made for political reasons. Thus, Momir Nikolic a prosecution witness in the Krstic trial was induced to say he supervised a massacre in Kravica until he admitted in cross examination that he not only lied by about supervising a massacre he never there and had no idea if one had occurred."

Here's another gem: "The report of the Srebrenica Research Group quotes former NATO Deputy Commander General Charles Boyd who said that the Croatian attack on the Serbian enclave of Western Slavonia 'appears to differ from Serbian actions around the UN safe areas of Srebrenica and Zepa only in the degree of Western hand-wringing and CNN footage the latter have elicited. Ethnic cleansing evokes condemnation only when it is committed by Serbs, not against them.'"

"Corwin, who authored a book about his experience in Bosnia called Dubious Mandate and wrote a foreword to the report of the Srebrenica Research Group added: “What happened in Srebrenica was not a single large massacre of Muslims by Serbs, but rather a series of very bloody attacks and counterattacks over a three-year period. Which reached a crescendo in July 1995. Moreover it is likely the the number of Muslim dead was probably no more than the number of Serbs that had been killed in Srebrenica and its environs in the three preceding years by Naser Oric and his predatory gangs.”

[dudalb]

One of the problems with being a Conspircy Theorists is that you end up assuming that anybody who has ran afoul of the New World Order is a good guy, and you end up supporting some very unsavory people.

[BeAChooser]

And here's a link to the full report: www.Srebrenica-report.com . There are a lot of gems in this report. For example, http://www.srebrenica-report.com/prelude.htm notes that "It was from Srebrenica that Oric and his allies launched methodical, scorched-earth attacks against the civilian population in 192 Serbian villages beginning in May of 1992. These attacks continued after Srebrenica was declared a safe zone in 1993 by a Security Council resolution, until it was captured by the Bosnia Serb Army BSA in July 1995."

Here's another from the same article "US recognition for the Muslim President of Bosnia was accompanied by a media campaign that targeted the Bosnian Serbs as the aggressor, although the first attacks in Bosnia, reported by the pro government newspaper Oslobodjenje, took place on March 26 when Croatian forces crossed the Sava River from Croatia and attacked the Serb inhabited village of Sijekovac near Bosanski Brod in Northern Bosnia. The village was burned and five Serbian families were slaughtered initiating a cycle of fear and revenge that was watched with apprehension throughout Bosnia."

And the following is especially interesting in light of later events:

"Both the Bush and incoming Clinton administrations portrayed President Izetbegovic as defender of a mult-ethnic Bosnia, a description at odds with a strongly expressed pan-Islamic views and actions. Izetbegovic had begun his career as recruiter for the SS Handschar party which Nazi SS leader Heinrich Himmler set up for Bosnian Muslims ... snip ... While cultivating a tone of moderation in dealing with Western leaders during the Bosnian conflict, Izetbegovic remained a fervent admirer of Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini and frequent traveler to Iran. Izetbegovic’s Islamic Declaration, first circulated in 1970 and published in time for his 1990 campaign for the presidency of Bosnia Herzegovina stated: 'There can be no peace or coexistence between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions… Islam clearly excludes the right and possibility of activity of any strange ideology on its own turf.' ... snip ... On two occasions in 1993, Der Spiegel’s respected Balkan correspondent Renate Flottau encountered Osama Bin-Ladin in the waiting room the office of Bosnian President Alija Izetgevovic. Bin-Ladin, then based in Sudan, had received a Bosnian passport thru the Vienna embassy of Bosnia Herzegovina according to the Bosnian Muslim daily Dani.* Bin-Ladin and his military chief of Staff Ayman al-Zawahiri helped establish the Mujahadeen fighters as a force in Bosnia, mostly as special forces of the 7th Corps of the Bosnian Army in Central Bosnia. Bodansky notes that support for the Bosnian Muslims was the first time that Shiite and Sunni Muslim terrorist organizations worked together."

It makes one wonder who you are really championing here.

And here's another noteworthy fact:

"General Phillipe Morillon, who served as UN Commander in Sarajevo, observed: 'The aim of the Presidency of Bosnia, from the very outset was to ensure the intervention of the international forces for their own benefit and this one of the reason why they never were inclined to engage in talks.' Morillon’s predecessor, Canadian General Lewis MacKenzie often criticized Serbs for their use of heavy weaponry around Sarajevo, but upon leaving his post in Sarajevo, wrote that 19 ceasefires he negotiated, were broken by Muslim forces, 'because their policy was, and is, to force the West to intervene.'"

"The misuse of casualty figures by the mainstream media was underway long before events at Srebrenica in 1995. For example, through December of 1992, the bloodiest year of the conflict, Bosnian government stated that there had been 17,000 casualties in the conflict.* Two months later, in the dead of winter, when fighting in this mountainous terrain had nearly ground to a halt, the Bosnian government abruptly began using a figure of 200,000 'killed or missing' which was used by such reporters as John Burns of the New York Times and John Pomfret of the Washington Post. Shortly thereafter, the phrase 'or missing' was dropped from news accounts. Thus, the number of casualties claimed by the Bosnian government was brazenly multiplied ten fold in two months, as an obliging press adopted the new numbers. Incredibly, the 200,000 fatality figure remained constant over the next two years."

"Similarly, Bosnia’s Foreign Minister Silajdzic made headlines around the world when he appeared on NBC’s “Today Show” in December of 1992, claiming that up to 40,000 Muslim women were being held in camps where they were raped and are being raped, even as we speak now.” In fact, as interested reporters might have confirmed with the International Committee of the Red Cross, the number of prisoners held by the Bosnian Serbs were overwhelmingly male and had numbered less than ten thousand at the peak of incareceration, five months previously."

"A pattern of staged incidents to engage world sympathy was revealed in a classified UN report leaked to the London newspaper, The Independent, which reported: 'United Nations officials and senior Western military officers believe some of the worst killings in Sarajevo, including the massacre of at least 16 people in a bread queue, were carried out by the city's mainly Muslim defenders — not Serb besiegers — as a propaganda ploy to win world sympathy and military intervention. . . . Classified reports to the UN force commander, General Satish Nambiar, concluded . . . that Bosnian forces loyal to President Alija Izetbegovic may have detonated a bomb.”

And that report goes on and on in a damning indictment of everything you claim happened at Srebrenica and in that war.

[CHF]

For crying out loud, even the Bosnian Serbs admit there was a massacre at Srebrenica!

The only question is how many were executed and how many were killed fleeing to Tulza.

I agree that atrocity stores were exaggerated and death tolls inflated (100,000 died in Bosnia, not 200,000+) but I'm amazed how some people translate that to mean that every crime the Serbs committed was actually a NWO plot to make them look bad.

What else was a hoax, BeA? Did the siege of Sarajevo actually not happen? Was Vukovar destroyed by the Croats shelling themselves?

[BeAChooser]

And finally, here are the overall conclusions of the Srebrenica Research Group:

http://www.srebrenica-report.com/conclusions.htm "Conclusions of Srebrenica Research Group":


Following three years of research as a group and many more as individuals, the Srebrenica Research Group reports the following conclusions:

1. Both the scale of the casualties at Srebrenica and the context of events have been misrepresented in official reports from governmental and non-governmental organizations as well as news organizations. ... snip ...

2. The 8,000 figure was first provided by the Red Cross, based on their crude estimate that the Bosnian Serb Army (BSA) had captured 3,000 men and that 5,000 were reported "missing." It is well established that thousands of those "missing" had reached Tuzla or were killed in the fighting, but in an amazing transformation displaying the eagerness to find the Bosnian Serbs evil and the Muslims victims, the "reaching safety/killed-in-action" basis of being missing was ignored and the missing were taken as executed! ... snip ...

3. With 8,000 executed and thousands killed in the fighting, there should have been huge grave sites and satellite evidence of both executions, burials, and any body removals. But the body searches in the Srebrenica vicinity were painfully disappointing, with only some two thousand bodies found in searches through 2001, including bodies killed in action and possibly Serb bodies, some pre-dating July 1995. The sparseness of these findings led to claims of body removal and reburial, but this was unconvincing as the Bosnian Serbs were under intense military pressure after July 1995. ... snip ...

4. On August 10, 1995, Madeleine Albright showed some satellite photos at a closed session of the Security Council, as part of a denunciation of the Bosnian Serbs, including one photo showing people--allegedly Bosnian Muslims near Srebrenica--assembled in a stadium, and one allegedly taken shortly thereafter showing a nearby field with "disturbed" soil. These photos have never been publicly released, but even if they are genuine they don't prove either executions or burials. Furthermore, although the ICTY speaks of "an organized and comprehensive effort" to hide bodies, and David Rohde claimed a "huge Serb effort to hide bodies," neither Albright nor anyone else has ever shown a satellite photo of people actually being executed, buried, or dug up for reburial, or of trucks conveying thousands of bodies elsewhere. This failure to provide evidence occurred despite Albright's warning the Serbs that "We will be watching," and with satellites at that time, making at least eight passes per day and geostationary drones able to hover and take finely detailed pictures in position over Bosnia during the summer of 1995. The mainstream media have found this failure to confirm of no interest.

5. There have been a great many bodies gathered at Tuzla, some 7,500 or more, from all across Bosnia, many in poor condition or parts only, their collection and handling incompatible with professional forensic standards, their provenance unclear and link to the July 1995 events in Srebrenica unproven and often unlikely, and the manner of their death usually uncertain. Interestingly, although the Serbs were regularly accused of trying to hide bodies, there has never been any suggestion that the Bosnian Muslims, long in charge of the body search, might shift bodies around and otherwise manipulate evidence, despite their substantial record of dissembling. ... snip ...

6. The 8,000 figure is also incompatible with the basic arithmetic of Srebrenica numbers before and after July 1995. Displaced persons from Srebrenica--that is, massacre survivors-- registered with the World Health Organization and Bosnian government in early August 1995, totalled 35,632. Muslim men who reached Muslim lines "without their families being informed" totaled at least 3,000, and some 2,000 were killed in the fighting. That gives us 37,632 survivors plus the 2,000 combat deaths, which would require the prewar population of Srebrenica to have been 48,000 if 8,000 were executed, whereas the population before July was more like 37-40,000 (Tribunal judge Patricia Wald gave 37,000 as her estimate). The numbers don't add up.

7. There were witnesses to killings at Srebrenica, or those who claimed to be witnesses. There were not many of these, and some had a political axe to grind or were otherwise not credible, but several were believable and were very likely describing real and ugly events. But the available evidence indicates hundreds of executions, not 8,000 or anything close to it. The only direct participant witness claim that ran to a thousand was that of Drazen Erdemovic, an ethnic Croat associated with a mercenary group of killers whose members were paid 12 kilos of gold for their Bosnian service (according to Erdemovic himself) and ended up working in the Congo on behalf of French intelligence. His testimony was accepted despite its vagueness and inconsistencies, lack of corroboration, and his suffering from mental problems sufficient to disqualify him from trial--but not from testifying before the Tribunal, free of cross-examination. within two weeks of this disqualification from trial. This and other witness evidence suffered from serious abuse of the plea-bargaining process whereby witnesses could receive mitigating sentences if they cooperated sufficiently with the prosecution.

It is also noteworthy how many relatively impartial observers in or near Srebrenica in July 1995 didn't see any evidence of massacres, including the members of the Dutch forces present in the "safe area" and people like Hubert Wieland, the chief UN investigator of human rights abuses, who could find no eyewitnesses to atrocities after five days of interviewing among the 20,000 Srebrenica survivors gathered at the Tuzla airport refugee camp. Carlos Martins Branco, former UN Deputy Director of UNMO (UN Monitors) in Bosnia, who debriefed UN monitors assigned to Srebrenica, writes that casualty estimates of 8,000 have been “used and manipulated for propaganda purposes…there is little doubt that at least 2,000 Bosnian Muslims died in fighting the better trained and better commanded BSA “ in three years of fierce fighting. This is roughly the number of bodies (2,028) which were exhumed by the International Criminal Tribunal on Yugoslavia (ICTY) in the region by the year 2001. Many of these deaths occurred before the fall of Srebrenica, according to Branco.

8. The events of Srebrenica and claims of a major massacre were extremely helpful to the Clinton administration, the Bosnian Muslim leadership, and Croatian authorities. Clinton was under political pressure in 1995 both from the media and from Bob Dole to take more forceful action in favor of the Bosnian Muslims, and his administration was eager to find a justification for more aggressive policies. Clinton officials rushed to the Srebrenica scene to confirm and publicize the claims of a massacre, just as William Walker did later at Racak in January 1999. By inflating the casualties following the capture of Srebrenica, US officials also diverted attention from larger-scale, US-supported Croatian attacks on Serb populated UN Protected Areas (UNPAs) in Western Slavonia (“Operation Flash”) and the Krajina region (“Operation Storm”) in May and August of 1995. ... snip ...

9. Both US and US-appointed ICTY officials acknowledged political considerations in issuing genocide indictments, which were announced prior to an investigation of events surrounding the capture of Srebrenica. ... snip ...

10. Bosnian Muslim leaders had been struggling for several years to persuade the NATO powers to intervene more forcibly on their behalf, and there is strong evidence that they were prepared not only to lie but also to sacrifice their own citizens and soldiers to serve the end of inducing intervention. Bosnian Muslim officials have claimed that their leader, Alija Izetbegovic, told them that Clinton had advised him that U.S. intervention would only occur if the Serbs killed at least 5,000 at Srebrenica. The abandonment of Srebrenica by a military force much larger than that of the attackers, and a retreat that made that larger force vulnerable and caused it to suffer heavy casualties in fighting and vengeance executions, helped produce numbers that would meet the Clinton criterion, by hook or by crook. There is other evidence that the retreat from Srebrenica was not based on any military necessity but was strategic, with the personnel losses incurred considered a necessary sacrifice for a larger purpose. On July 9, 1995, two days before Bosnian Serbs had captured the nearly empty town of Srebrenica and before any serious fighting had taken place, President Izetbegovic was already calling President Clinton and other world leaders urging them to take action against “terrorism” and “genocide” by Bosnian Serb Forces. This was part of an ongoing pattern in which charges of mass rape, death camps, staged atrocities were used to manipulate public opinion in favor of military intervention.

Military sources confirm that the 5,500 strong Muslim military force in Srebrenica made no effort to defend Srebrenica against 200 Serbian troops supported by five tanks. Tim Ripley, a military analyst for Janes’ Defense publications notes that Muslim forces fled from Srebrenica to the surrounding hills before Serbs captured the nearly empty town. He writes that Dutch troops “saw Bosnian troops escaping from Srebrenica move past their observation points carrying brand new anti-tank weapons, still in their plastic wrappings. This, and other similar reports, made many UN officers and international journalists suspicious.” Former Deputy Director of UNMO (UN Monitors) Carlos Martins Branco who debriefed the UN monitors who served in Srebrenica, writes: “Muslim forces did not even try to take advantage of their heavy artillery, under control of the United Nations (UN) forces at a time in which they had every reason to do so … Military resistance would jeopardize the image of ‘victim’, which had been so carefully constructed, and which the Muslims considered vital to maintain.” Lt Col British Lt.-Col. Jim Baxter, assistant to UN Commander Rupert Smith, told Tim Ripley “They [the Bosnian government] knew what was happening in Srebrenica. I am certain they decided it was worth the sacrifice.”

Muslim leaders from Srebrenica claim that the town was deliberately “sacrificed” by the Presidency of the Bosnia and the Military High Command in order to encourage NATO intervention. In their testimony before the Hague Tribunal, Bosnian Muslim Generals Halilovic and Hadzihasanovic testified that General Staff of the Bosnian Army abruptly removed 18 top officers of the 28th division in Srebrenica. This was done even as the high command was ordering sabotage operations against Bosnian Serbs. One of these was a militarily meaningless attack on a strategically unimportant nearby Serb village of Visnica. The final operation was an attack on Bosnian Serb Army units on the road south of Srebrenica, just days before the Serbs captured the nearly undefended town. ... snip ...

11. Croatian authorities were also delighted with the claims of a Srebrenica massacre, as this deflected attention from their prior devastating ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Western Slavonia (almost entirely ignored by the Western media), and it provided a cover for their already planned removal of several hundred thousand Serbs from the Krajina area in Croatia. In “Operation Flash,” carried out in Western Slavonia in May 1995, the Croatians did not provide safe passage for a huge column of Serb refugees, which included many women and children. “Many Serbs perished in heavy Croatian tank, artillery and aerial bombardments …as they tried to flee southward toward the Sava River bridge into Bosnia,” wrote New York Times reporter Roger Cohen, who noted that “the estimate of 450 Serbian dead, given by Gojko Susak, the Croatian Defense Minister appears to be conservative.” The followup massive ethnic cleansing operation by Croatia in Krajina was carried out with U.S. approval and logistical support within a month of the Srebrenica events, and it may well have involved the killing of more Serb civilians than Bosnian Muslim civilians killed in the Srebrenica area in July: most of the Bosnian Muslim victims were fighters, not civilians, as the Bosnian Serbs bused the Srebrenica women and children to safety; here as in Western Slavonia the Croatians made no such provision and many women, children and old people were slaughtered in Krajina. The ruthlessness of the Croats was impressive: "UN troops watched horrified as Croat soldiers dragged the bodies of dead Serbs along the road outside the UN compound and then pumped them full of rounds from the AK-47s. They then crushed the bullet-ridden bodies under the tracks of a tank." But this was hardly noticed in the wake of the indignation and propaganda generated around Srebrenica, with the aid of the mainstream media, whose co-belligerency role in the Balkan wars was already well-entrenched.

12. The International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia (ICTY) and UN also had an important role to play in the consolidation of the standard Srebrenica massacre narrative. From its inception the ICTY served as an arm of the NATO powers, who created it, funded it, served as its police arm and main information source, and expected and got responsive service from the organization. The ICTY focused intensively on Srebrenica and provided important and nominally independent corroboration of the massacre claims along with citable "judicial" claims of planned "genocide." Although the death toll in Operations “Flash” and “Storm” is believed to be in the thousands, in contrast with its treatment of Srebrenica, but in keeping with its role as a political instrument of NATO, no genocide indictments were issued by the ICTY for these ethnic cleansing operations and massacres.

13. The UN is less thoroughly integrated into NATO-power demands than the ICTY, but it is highly responsive, and in the Srebrenica case, it came through just as the United States and its main allies desired. Under pressure from the US, the UN employed a double standard for reporting alleged abuses by Serb forces as compared with comparable abuses by Croatian Muslim forces. Between May of 1992 and April of 1993, scarcely a day went by without massacres and scorched earth attacks by Muslim warlord Naser Oric on towns and villages such as Sikirici, Konjevic Polje, Glogova, Zalazje, Fakovici, Kaludra, Loznica, Fakovici, Brezani, Krnica, Zagoni, Orlice, Jezhtica, Bijlaca, Crni Vhr, Milici, Kamenica, Bjelovac, Kravica, Skelani and Zabokvica. "Naser Oric was a warlord who reigned by terror in this area and over the population itself," General Phillippe Morillon testified at the Hague Tribunal. "He could not allow himself to take prisoners. According to my recollection, he didn't even look for an excuse.” Oric’s forces are responsible for 1,200-1,500 deaths in the Srebrenica area.

Yet, despite extensive evidence of Oric’s direct participation in such atrocities in a report submitted to the UN by the Yugoslav State Commission on War Crimes, the US State Department, the UN and major news organizations were largely silent on these crimes. UN Security Council resolutions to condemn abuses by Muslim forces or Croatian forces were routinely thwarted by threatened veto from Madeleine Albright. The report on Oric was submitted to the UN Commission of Experts on War Crimes, whose chairman Cherif Bassiouni was appointed by Ambassador Albright, but Oric was not even mentioned in the final report of the Commission. When the ICTY finally got around to indicting Nasir Oric on March 28, 2003, very possibly to create the image of judicial balance, he was charged with killing only seven Serbs who were tortured and beaten to death after capture, and with the "wanton destruction" of nearby villages. Although he bragged to Western reporters of slaughtering Serb civilians, the ICTY reportedly "found no evidence that there were civilian casualties in the attacks on Serb villages in his theater of operations."

Former NATO Deputy Commander Charles Boyd, who was in charge of intelligence assessments, wrote in Foreign Affairs that the Croatian attack on the UN Protected Serb-inhabited area of Western Bosnia, which preceded the capture of Srebrenica “appears to differ from Serbian actions around the UN safe areas of Srebrenica and Zepa only in the degree of Western hand-wringing and CNN footage the latter have elicited. Ethnic cleansing evokes condemnation only when it is committed by Serbs, not against them.”

14. Another anomaly also showing the sacred, untouchable, and politicized character of the Srebrenica massacre in Western ideology has been the ready designation of*the killings as a case of "genocide." ... snip ...

On gullibility, one Tribunal judge accepted as fact the witness claim that Serb soldiers had forced an old Muslim man to eat the liver of his grandson; and the judges repeatedly stated as an established fact that 7-8,000 Muslim men had been executed, while simultaneously acknowledging that the evidence only "suggested" that "a majority" of the 7-8,000 missing had not been killed in combat, which yields a number substantially lower than 7-8,000. The Tribunal dealt with the awkward problem of the genocide-intent Serbs bussing Bosnian Muslim women and children to safety by arguing that they did this for public relations reasons, but as Michael Mandel points out, failing to do some criminal act despite your desire is called "not committing a crime." The Tribunal never asked why the genocidal Serbs failed to surround the town before its capture to prevent thousands of males from escaping to safety, or why the Bosnian Muslim soldiers were willing to leave their women and children as well as many wounded comrades to the mercies of the Serbs; and they failed to confront the fact that 10,000 mainly Muslim residents of Zvornik sought refugee from the civil war in Serbia itself, as prosecution witness Borisav Jovic testified.

Among the other weaknesses in the Tribunal judges' argument, it was genocide if you killed many males in a group in order to reduce the future population of that group, thereby making it unviable in that area. Of course, you might want to kill them to prevent their killing you in the future, but the court knows Serb psychology better--that couldn't be the sole reason, there must have been a more sinister aim. The Tribunal reasoning holds forth the possibility that with only a little prosecution-friendly judicial psychologizing any case of killing enemy soldiers can be designated genocide.

There is also the problem of definition of the group. Were the Serbs trying to eliminate all the Muslims in Bosnia, or Muslims globally? Or just in Srebrenica? The judges suggested that pushing them out of the Srebrenica area was itself genocide, and they essentially equated genocide with ethnic cleansing. It is notable that the ICTY has never called the Croat ethnic cleansing of 250,000 Krajina Serbs "genocide" although in that case, many women and children were killed and the ethnic cleansing applied to a larger area and larger victim population than in Srebrenica. (On August 10, 1995, Madeleine Albright cried out to the Security Council that "as many as 13,000 men, women and children were driven from their homes" in Srebrenica.) Perhaps the ICTY had accepted Richard Holbrooke's designation of the Krajina as a case of "involuntary expulsions." The bias is blatant; the politicization of a purported judicial enterprise is extreme.

15. Media treatment of the Srebrenica and Krajina cases followed the same pattern and illustrates well how the media make some victims worthy and others unworthy in accord with a political agenda. With the Serbs their government's target, and their government actively aiding the massive Croat ethnic cleansing program in Krajina, the media gave huge and indignant treatment to the first, with invidious language, calls for action, and little context. With Krajina, attention was slight and passing, indignation was absent, detailed reporting on the condition of the victims was minimal, descriptive language was neutral, and there was context offered that made the events understandable. The contrast is dramatic: the attack on Srebrenica "chilling," "murderous," "savagery," "cold-blooded killing," "genocidal," "aggression," and of course "ethnic cleansing." With Krajina, the media used no such strong language--even ethnic cleansing was too much for them. The Croat assault was merely a big "upheaval" that is "softening up the enemy," "a lightning offensive," explained away as a "response to Srebrenica" and a result of Serb leaders "overplaying their hand." The Washington Post even cited U.S. Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith saying the "the Serb exodus was not 'ethnic cleansing'." The paper does not allow a challenge to that judgment. In fact, however, the Croat operations in Krajina left Croatia as the most ethnically purified of all the former components of the former Yugoslavia, although the NATO occupation of Kosovo has allowed an Albanian ethnic cleansing that is rivalling that of Croatia in ethnic purification.

Many journalists covering Srebrenica and the Bosnian war consistently accepted Bosnian and US government pronouncements as fact instead of independently verifying evidence. U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel John Sray, on the scene in Bosnia, wrote in October 1995 on “Selling the Bosnian Myth: Buyer Beware,” that while “many journalists, who undeniably labor under dangerous and miserable conditions… have permitted themselves to become pawns of the propaganda structure….These correspondents frequently limit their time in Bosnia to short stays and fail to gain an appreciation for the true nuances at play in this war. Watching and reading their reports too often conveys the impression that they feel the pressure of competition for a voyeuristic audience against their pampered tabloid-like peers (such as those who covered the O.J. Simpson trial) and try to react accordingly. This segment of the media views its job security as dependent upon obtaining thirty seconds of good video footage accompanied with appropriate sound bites from Muslim officials or their populace. The result, obviously, becomes tawdry reporting that panders to the Bosniac point of view and results in misleading news reports.”

Obviously, this characterization does not describe all the coverage of the conflict or events around Srebrenica, but it describes the long-standing mainstream perspective and serves to remind us that ten years later, a highly skewed version of what happened at Srebrenica dominates public perceptions, and may influence decisions now being made about the fate of Kosovo and Bosnia. ... snip ...


So yes, I guess I do doubt your claims about Srebrenica, Wildcat. :D

[Ysidro]

What else was a hoax, BeA? Did the siege of Sarajevo actually not happen? Was Vukovar destroyed by the Croats shelling themselves?

I have proof Archduke Ferdinand was killed by the NWO!!!!!

[WildCat]

So yes, I guess I do doubt your claims about Srebrenica, Wildcat. :D
So I guess those Dutch soldiers are still traumatized over nothing: http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,364902,00.html

I have a much beter understanding of how Holocaust denial took root now, when even things that happened in our own generation can be disputed by those blinded to reality.

[WildCat]

Apparently these people (http://www.domovina.net/srebrenica/page_006/Preliminarni_spisak_Srebrenica_1995.pdf) are just off on holiday somewhere for the last 12 years, and these people (http://www.radionetherlands.nl/features/science/050711rf) are all agents of the NWO working on a disinfo campaign.

[BeAChooser]

I guess those Dutch soldiers are still traumatized over nothing: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...364902,00.html

You only prove my point. The wording alone tells you that's hardly an unbiased look at the issue. And I already proved, citing several sources, that much of what that article claims is outright false and nothing more than the type of propaganda and hyperbola I've been talking about.

And let's examine specifically what that dutch soldier mentioned prominently in the article actually knows first hand.

1) That some Serbs entered the enclave. No one denies that.

2) That he saw some muslims put on buses and transported away. Well no one denies that some muslims were put on buses. That in itself is not even suspicious given that buses showed up at Tuzla with women and children on them. Unfortunately, your source doesn't indicate whether they were men, women or children he saw put on the buses. Nor does it indicate the number. And I note that it fails to admit that any muslims were transported by the serbs to UN lines and released.

3) That he's feeling guilty because he's been accused (by your side in this issue) of not acting to prevent a massacre (which from what I posted didn't actually take place ... certainly not to the extent claimed in that article).

4) That he's been branded a coward by your side in this issue and needed psychological help. I imagine he might need psychological help if that's how he's been treated by your side in this issue.

In short, he didn't actually see anything. He saw a few muslim bodies in the street. That's it. I foolishly thought that folks on this forum were supposed to be skeptical. You are going to have to do better than that, WildCat, to prove gullibility isn't the norm.

[WildCat]

You are going to have to do better than that, WildCat, to prove gullibility isn't the norm.
I guess you missed the link showing the huge freaking pile of bones? And that through DNA they identified 2,000 of them as from Srebrenica? And the list of over 8,000 names of people who used to live in Srebrenica and haven't been seen since 1995?

But hey, if your little group of superheros didn't personally see these things happening it must not have... :rolleyes:

[Elizabeth I]

I suppose if I wrote a 1,000-line post that just said, "blah blah blah" I'd get in trouble, huh?

Watch out for those secret Czech Slovak Albanian Jews! You never know where one will be lurking...

[FreeRomanian]

CHF,
Alanians fead before 1999 because UCK(KLA) also Killed albanians who did not want to fight for the independence.

The majority of albanians were satisfied with the autonomy within Serbia.

The KoSOVO WAR was an artificially generated conflict.

AMERICANS needed the land for Bondsteel Camp to control the area.... ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel

[Architect]

Aha, I see. The big nasty Americans again. And those damned Albanians got what they deserved!!! Not that we killed them !!!!!!


Jings, it's like ruddy Holocaust deniers.

[CHF]

CHF,
Alanians fead before 1999 because UCK(KLA) also Killed albanians who did not want to fight for the independence.

The majority of albanians were satisfied with the autonomy within Serbia.

The KoSOVO WAR was an artificially generated conflict.

AMERICANS needed the land for Bondsteel Camp to control the area.... ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel

You didn't answer my question, FR. Both you and BaEChooser seem determined to ignore it.

During the wars of the 1990s, did the Serbs ever do anything wrong in your opinion?

If so, what was it?

Am I also to understand that you think those 800,000 Kosovars who fled to Macedonia and Albania in 1999 were all forced out by the KLA?

[CHF]

I guess you missed the link showing the huge freaking pile of bones? And that through DNA they identified 2,000 of them as from Srebrenica? And the list of over 8,000 names of people who used to live in Srebrenica and haven't been seen since 1995?

But hey, if your little group of superheros didn't personally see these things happening it must not have... :rolleyes:

Let's not forget all those bodies of Muslim men found in mass graves with their hands tied behind their backs....which I suppose must be how the BiH sent their men into combat.

No wonder they lost so badly at Srebrenica, huh?

Holocaust Denial, Serb war crime denial, 9/11 denial....the similarities in "logic" are stunning.

[MarkCorrigan]

Let's not forget all those bodies of Muslim men found in mass graves with their hands tied behind their backs....which I suppose must be how the BiH sent their men into combat.

No wonder they lost so badly at Srebrenica, huh?

Holocaust Denial, Serb war crime denial, 9/11 denial....the similarities in "logic" are stunning.

As is the offensiveness of the opinion.

I honestly can't believe someone came here with "Serbs only killed 2000!!!!11!1!" (which isn't exactly true anyway) and expected us to start talking about how amazing they are. It's almost as if they would also expect us to invite Hitler to tea if it was shown he only killed 1 million.

[BeAChooser]

I guess you missed the link showing the huge freaking pile of bones? And that through DNA they identified 2,000 of them as from Srebrenica? And the list of over 8,000 names of people who used to live in Srebrenica and haven't been seen since 1995?

Does DNA tell us when the person was actually killed? Or what the person was doing around the time of death? Was that person carrying a gun at the time? And who compiled the lists of people that supposedly lived there? Izetbegovic's people? Do you really trust them? Based on what I found, I certainly don't. There is much to suggest you are being played by him.

And when all is said and done, the number is still only 2000-3000, not the 7000-10,000 claimed in all the media as fact. Where are all the witnesses? Not the ones whose stories don't check out or who admitted later to actually lying. Sorry, but the available evidence only indicates hundreds of executions, not 8000 or more.

Let me repeat this finding from the Srebrenica Research Group:


6. The 8,000 figure is also incompatible with the basic arithmetic of Srebrenica numbers before and after July 1995. Displaced persons from Srebrenica--that is, massacre survivors-- registered with the World Health Organization and Bosnian government in early August 1995, totalled 35,632. Muslim men who reached Muslim lines "without their families being informed" totaled at least 3,000, and some 2,000 were killed in the fighting. That gives us 37,632 survivors plus the 2,000 combat deaths, which would require the prewar population of Srebrenica to have been 48,000 if 8,000 were executed, whereas the population before July was more like 37-40,000 (Tribunal judge Patricia Wald gave 37,000 as her estimate). The numbers don't add up.


They are right. The numbers don't add up, WildCat.

And why did a 5,500 strong Muslim military force with heavy weapons withdraw and make no effort to defend Srebrenica against the 200 Serbs and 5 tanks that attacked that day?

The numbers don't add up, WildCat. Something is fishy about this.

Look, no one is denying that some Serbs committed atrocities occurred that day. But they probably weren't of the magnitude the Bosnian Muslims and NATO wanted/want us to believe. The many facts I found and noted certainly indicate that the Clinton administration, NATO and the press exaggerated this event and laid it, to a large part unjustly, on the Serbian government and Milosevic. Surely that's undeniable. Or do you approve of letting a man who admitted to helping murder 1200 people (although the evidence doesn't support the veracity of his claim as to the number) after only 5 years in jail, and then giving him a new identity and a job? And why wasn't the defense allowed to cross examine this man? That's seems a violation of very basic rights in any fair legal system.

And what is still overlooked by your side is that the atrocities didn't start with the Serbs that day. The Bosnian Muslims most certainly had dirty hands. They actually started the war ... with an atrocity against civilians. And they clearly lied about the number of innocents killed and who actually killed them repeatedly. That's a documented fact.

According to the Srebrenica Research Group, Naser Oric’s forces are responsible for well over a thousand deaths in the Srebrenica area alone, plus many murders (and they can only be described as such based on the descriptions one finds) in many other towns in the area. And let's not forget the callous disregard for civilian life that NATO and the Croats showed in other actions in the war.

Don't insult me by claiming that we were nothing but "good guys". And don't insult me by claiming our motives (at least those of those in charge) were pure. That clearly was not the case.

[CHF]

And what is still overlooked by your side is that the atrocities didn't start with the Serbs that day. The Bosnian Muslims most certainly had dirty hands.

No one has ever claimed that the Serbs committed all atrocities in the Balkan wars. As you mentioned, Nasir Oric had thousands of Serbs killed in raids out of Srebrenica back in 92-93.

But let's think back to how the Srebrenica situation started, shall we?

In early April 1992 Serbian paramilitaries, backed by the JNA, swept into the region and began killing and expelling the Muslim population from places like Bileljina, Zvornik, Visegrad....

These refugees poured into the towns of Zepa, Tulza, Srebrenica and Gorazde which soon found themselves surrounded and under seige. It was from this seige that Oric launched his murderous raids on near-by Serb town - largely in an effort to find food and ammunition.

Serb war crime appologists like to start the Srebrenica chronology with those Oric raids and ignore how the situation came to be in the first place.

They actually started the war ... with an atrocity against civilians.

Remember, folks: in the world inhabited by BeA and FreeRomanian, the Serb attack on eastern and northern Bosnia, which killed thousands of people, was actually a response to a Serbian guy (yup, one guy) being killed by a Muslim at a wedding party in Sarajevo.

That murder was their justification for cleansing large tracts of the country an laying seige to towns and cities.

Excuses don't get much worse than that.

Or perhaps BeA is actually referring to the March 92 battle between Croats and Serbs on the northern border as justification for sweeping away the Muslims from the east and north. Either way, pretty lame.

[BeAChooser]

You didn't answer my question, FR. Both you and BaEChooser seem determined to ignore it.

During the wars of the 1990s, did the Serbs ever do anything wrong in your opinion?

If you had bothered to read my posts, you'd have seen I did address that question. The answer is yes. Clearly there were atrocities committed by some on the Serb side.

Now let's reverse the question.

During the wars of the 1990s, did the Bosnian Muslims do anything wrong in your opinion? And what was it?

Am I also to understand that you think those 800,000 Kosovars who fled to Macedonia and Albania in 1999 were all forced out by the KLA?

First, http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/europe/jan-june99/refugees_4-28.html "SERGIO VIEIRA DE MELLO, Undersecretary-General, United Nations, 1999 - 'We have more than half a million Serb refugees that we don't talk a lot about from Bosnia and Croatia in Serbia." You don't want to talk about THAT, do you. ;)

Second, you are being misleading. According to numerous sources (e.g., http://www.espritdecorps.ca/Ontarget%20080223.htm ) the vast majority of the 800,000 Kosovars you refer to fled the country AFTER the NATO began bombing. There were only about 50-100,000 refugees prior to the bombing. NATO bombing actually caused the exodus. Or perhaps it was the realization that the KLA would be taking over with NATO help (http://emperors-clothes.com/interviews/keys.htm ).

And prior to the bombing there were relatively few attacks on Albanian Kosovars. Those were in the context of a insurgency being waged by the KLA (a terrorist organization according to the US State Department, btw) against the Serbs who rightfully held Kosovo (even UN Resolution 1244 admits that). Prior to the bombing, the number of dead in Kosovo (and this is admitted by the US government) was less than 2000, which included around 500 Serbian civilans and police, and 1500 Albanian civilians and KLA members. And that was after more than one year of conflict. This rose to 10,000 dead - an estimated 6-7,000 Albanians and 3-4,000 Serbians ... and many more since. Thanks to NATO bombing.

And regarding those Kosovar refugees, how many of them were actually in Kosovo legally in the first place? We know that the majority illegally entered that country. Was that ok with you? And even though most were illegal, they were repatriated according to the terms of UN Resolution 1244 ... you know, the one that the Serbs abided by and that our side has clearly violated.

Speaking about that, what about the 160,000 to 200,000 Kosovo Serbs who SINCE the KLA and NATO/UN took over Kosovo have been driven out of their homes and forced to flee to Serbia? Have you no compassion for them? None at all?

Well, in any case, congratulations ... you've succeeded in creating a muslim country in Europe in a country that was once mostly Christian. You succeeded in turning over the reigns of government to what the US labeled a terrorist organization ... one that happens to have had ties to Osama Bin Ladin.

And these are it's inhabitants in action ...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W4c9b5OdgHo

And here is their chief industry ...

http://members.tripod.com/Balkania/resources/terrorism/kla-drugs.html .

[BeAChooser]

Let's not forget all those bodies of Muslim men found in mass graves with their hands tied behind their backs

Let's not forget all the Serb civilians in the region who were murdered and even beheaded long before that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3254890.stm "Bosnian Muslims committed war crimes including a ritual beheading, the Hague tribunal was told at the start of a landmark trial."

***********

Slide Show: Bosnian Muslim atrocities (WARNING ... Don't look unless you have a strong stomach - VERY GRAPHIC)
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/

Picture 1 of 34. Srebrenica/Zvornik region: The body of a Bosnian Serb boy murdered by Nasir Oric's forces in the Srebrenica pocket in eastern Bosnia.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/001.shtml

Picture 2 of 34. The bodies of Ranko Sekulovic, left, and his wife, Radenka, 30, executed and mutilated by Bosnian Muslim Territorial Defense forces on September 13, 1992 in Foca. Bosnian Muslim troops murdered the entire Sekulovic family.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/002.shtml

Picture 3 of 34. Bottom, the mutilated body of 13 year old Bosnian Serb Darko Koroman. Bosnian Muslim troops executed him and cut off his right ear and stabbed him through the neck. The bodies of executed Bosnian Serb civilians Pero Grcic and Stojka Koroman lie beside his.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/003.shtml

Picture 4 of 34. The body of Bosnian Serb civilian Kostadinka Grcic, executed by Bosnian Muslim forces by stabbing her in the chest.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/004.shtml

Picture 5 of 34. The decapitated head of Bosnian Serb farmer Pero Makic, who was executed by Bosnian Muslim/Croat forces in the northeastern Bosnian city of Brcko on June 22, 1992. His head was placed on a pitch-fork and a cigarette was placed in his mouth. One of the forks of the pitch-fork was stabbed in his eye. This is a photo that was censored and suppressed in the West and the US.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/005.shtml

Picture 6 of 34. The decapitated head and torso of Bosnian Serb Miladin Asceric, who was executed and decapitated by Bosnian Muslim forces north of Srebrenica, in the town of Kamenica.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/006.shtml

Picture 7 of 34. Bosnian Muslim forces murdered 11 Bosnian Serb refugees on August 27, 1992 in Rogatica. Charred bodies of Bosnian Serb man and woman.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/007.shtml

Picture 8 of 34. The charred skeletal remains of a Bosnian Serb refugee who was tied with a cable and burned inside his car by Bosnian Muslim forces in Kukavice on August 27, 1992.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/008.shtml

Picture 9 of 34. The Milici Massacre, south of Srebrenica. Bosnian Muslim troops executed Bosnian Serbs and mutilated their bodies. On left, Ljubomir Jurosevic had his right eye cut out by Bosnian Muslim soldiers and his neck and chest showed signs of knife wounds. On right, the mutilated body of Bosnian Serb Dimitrije Alempic from Rogosije, who was executed by Bosnian Muslim soldiers. His body was mutilated and burned.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/009.shtml

Picture 10 of 34. The corpse of Bosnian Serb civilian Radivoje Lukic, 59. The Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries „The Mosque Doves” or „Dzamijski Golubovi”, murdered him with an axe to the head on October 8, 1992 in Klisa.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/010.shtml

Picture 11 of 34. The bodies of two Bosnian Serbs in eastern Bosnia. On the right, a charred body of Zdravo Eric, who was killed and his body burned. Before burning him, Muslims took out the heart of this Christian as a sign of Islamic piety.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/011.shtml

Picture 12 of 34. The Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries „The Mosque Doves” or „Islamski Golubovi”, murdered two elderly Bosnian Serb women near Zvornik north of Srebrenica.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/012.shtml

Picture 13 of 34. Mujahedeen video showing the torture and beheading of Bosnian Serb POWs in central Bosnia. These mujahedeen troops were part of the Bosnian Muslim Government Army, not paramilitaries like the Black Swans or The Mosque Doves.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/013.shtml

Picture 14 of 34. Bosnian Muslim mujahedeen march through town as part of Bosnian Muslim Army.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/014.shtml

Picture 15 of 34. Bosnian Islamic leaders, muftis and imams and hodzas, call for a jihad in Bosnia against Bosnian Serb Orthodox Christians.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/015.shtml

Picture 16 of 34. Srebrenica military commander Nasir Oric stands with his soldiers from Srebrenica in front of destroyed and burned Bosnian Serb buildings in Kravica, just north of Srebrenica on Serbian Orthodox Christmas, January 7, 1993.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/016.shtml

Picture 17 of 34. The body of Milica Saric, who was murdered by Bosnian Muslim forces in Kalinovik with 30 other Bosnian Serb civilians. On right, the body of 15 year-old Bosnian Serb Slobodan Mastilo, who was murdered by Bosnian Muslim forces in the Foca region.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/017.shtml

Picture 18 of 34. Sarajevo: The body of Bosnian Serb Nenad Beribaka. The Bosnian Muslim forces mutilated his body after killing him by extracting his brain.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/018.shtml

Picture 19 of 34. Sarajevo: The body of a Bosnian Serb. Bosnian Muslim forces mutilated his bodyby busting his skull open.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/019.shtml

Picture 20 of 34. Bosnian Muslim military forces from Srebrenica killed Bosnian Serb Milan Vujicic, mutilated his body, and then roasted his corpse.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/020.shtml

Picture 21 of 34. Top, bodies of elderly Bosnian Serbs executed by the Bosnian Muslim paramilitary group The Mosque Doves, or Djamijski Golubovi near Zvornik in eastern Bosnia. The Mosque Doves executed 25 Bosnian Serb civilians. Left bottom, Bosnian Muslim forces crushed his skull with an axe, exposing his brain. Right bottom, the body of an elderly Bosnian Serb woman who was murdered by Bosnian Muslim forces.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/021.shtml

Picture 22 of 34. The body of a Bosnian Serb from Sarajevo, who was killed, mutilated, and burned. His body was thrown in the Miljacka river by Bosnian Muslim forces.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/022.shtml

Picture 23 of 34. The body of Bosnian Serb Milovan Kovacevic whose body was mutilated and burned by Bosnian Muslim forces in Rogosije.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/023.shtml

Picture 24 of 34. The mutilated body of Velo Majstorovic, who was tortured, killed, circumcized, and burned alive by Bosnian Muslim forces in Milici in eastern Bosnia, southwest of Srebrenica.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/024.shtml

Picture 25 of 34. El Mujahedeen Unit in Bosnia on parade with green banners which read: „Our path is the jihad”.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/025.shtml

Picture 26 of 34. Srebrenica: Top, the bodies of 38 Bosnian Serb POWs, who were tortured, mutilated, and beheaded in Kamenica, north of Srebrenica by Bosnian Muslim troops from Srebrenica. Left bottom, the tree where Bosnian Muslim forces from Srebrenica tortured Bosnian Serb POWs before executing them. Bottom right, the decapitated corpse of a Bosnian Serb POW.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/026.shtml

Picture 27 of 34. First massacre in Bosnia: March 26, 1992, Croat and Bosnian Muslim forces executed, mutilated, and beheaded 20 Bosnian Serb civilians in Sijekovac near Bosanski Brod. An 85 year Bosnian Serb was executed and then burned inside his house. The decapitated and mutilated corpses of Bosnian Serbs murdered in northern Bosnia near Brod.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/027.shtml

Picture 28 of 34. Destruction of Christianity in Bosnia: Bosnian Muslim troops from Srebrenica under Nasir Oric demolished and burned the Serbian Orthodox parish hall and church in Kravica, north of Srebrenica.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/028.shtml

Picture 29 of 34. Bosnian Muslim Destruction of Churches: Bosnian Muslim troops demolished and burned the Serbian Orthodox Church and hall in Trnovo, south of Sarajevo.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/029.shtml

Picture 30 of 34. Saudi mujahedeen with decapitated heads of Bosnian Serb POWs in 1992. Al-Qaeda funded and organized these early terrorist attacks against Bosnian Serbs.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/030.shtml

Picture 31 of 34. Saudi mujahedeen with decapitated heads of Bosnian Serb POWs in 1992. Al-Qaeda funded and organized these early terrorist attacks against Bosnian Serbs.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/031.shtml

Picture 32 of 34. Afghan-Arab mujahedeen holding the decapitated head of a Bosnian Serb POW who was executed and decapitated in central Bosnia in 1992.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/032.shtml

Picture 33 of 34. Bosnian Muslim forces mutilated the bodies of Bosnian Serb soldiers in Brcko in northeastern Bosnia. Here eyeballs have been gouged out.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/033.shtml

Picture 34 of 34. Bosnian Serb civilian Zdravko Eric executed, burned and mutilated by the Bosnian Muslim paramilitary group Mosque Doves, Djamijski Golubovi, under Midhat Grahic fron Zvornik.
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/034.shtml

***************

There was plenty of brutality to go around, and much of it happened long before the Serbs military got there.

[CHF]

During the wars of the 1990s, did the Bosnian Muslims do anything wrong in your opinion? And what was it?

Certainly.

Muslims carried out summary executions and expulsions of Serb civilians in parts of Eastern and Western Bosnia. Killings were also carried out against Croats in Central Bosnia and against Muslim followers of Fikrit Abdic near Bihac.

Nations, 1999 - 'We have more than half a million Serb refugees that we don't talk a lot about from Bosnia and Croatia in Serbia." You don't want to talk about THAT, do you. ;)

Sure I'll talk about it. Many of those civilians were expelled from Central Bosnia in 92-94 and from Krajina/Western Bosnia in 1995.

Notice that I'm not dumb enough to claim that the Serbs expelled themselves.

Second, you are being misleading. According to numerous sources (e.g., http://www.espritdecorps.ca/Ontarget%20080223.htm ) the vast majority of the 800,000 Kosovars you refer to fled the country AFTER the NATO began bombing. There were only about 50-100,000 refugees prior to the bombing. NATO bombing actually caused the exodus.

There were 300,000 IDPs before a single NATO bomb had fallen.

As for the rest, they were mostly fleeing the Serb paramilitaries who stepped-up their expulsions once the bombing started. In other words, they were fleeing the actions of Serb paramilitaries, not NATO.

The fact that the Serbs did not start mass expulsions until the bombing started does not mean they didn't do the expelling.

I will agree with you that the level of violence in Kosovo before March 1999 did not warrant the label of "genocide" but it was a very familiar sight given what had previously occurred in Bosnia and Croatia.

Speaking about that, what about the 160,000 to 200,000 Kosovo Serbs who SINCE the KLA and NATO/UN took over Kosovo have been driven out of their homes and forced to flee to Serbia? Have you no compassion for them? None at all?

I have as much compassion for them as I do the 10 million Germans expelled from Eastern Europe at the end of WWII.

Those people (or any other civilians) did not, and do not, deserve such a fate.

But I suppose that's what happens when one's leaders set out to murder and cleanse other people, huh? Sometimes it doesn't go over well.

[CHF]

Let's not forget all the Serb civilians in the region who were murdered and even beheaded long before that.

The war didn't start in Summer/Winter 1992, BeA.

You keep forgetting what happened that Spring.

But let's think back to how the Srebrenica situation started, shall we?

In early April 1992 Serbian paramilitaries, backed by the JNA, swept into the region and began killing and expelling the Muslim population from places like Bileljina, Zvornik, Visegrad....

These refugees poured into the towns of Zepa, Tulza, Srebrenica and Gorazde which soon found themselves surrounded and under seige. It was from this seige that Oric launched his murderous raids on near-by Serb town - largely in an effort to find food and ammunition.

Serb war crime apologists like to start the Srebrenica chronology with those Oric raids and ignore how the situation came to be in the first place.

[BeAChooser]

It's almost as if they would also expect us to invite Hitler to tea if it was shown he only killed 1 million.

Let's keep in mind that the Croats, Bosnian and Albanian Muslims sided with Hitler in WWII.

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/hanjar.html

http://www.tenc.net/bosnia/svijet.htm

http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/arabnazi.html

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_collaboration.htm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/immigration/nazi_arab.htm

http://www.islam-watch.org/Serbianna/Albanian_role_holocaust.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg _(1st_Albanian)

Whereas ...

http://www.reformation.org/serbs.html "SERBS COST HITLER WW II"

[MarkCorrigan]

If you had bothered to read my posts, you'd have seen I did address that question. The answer is yes. Clearly there were atrocities committed by some on the Serb side.

Now let's reverse the question.

During the wars of the 1990s, did the Bosnian Muslims do anything wrong in your opinion? And what was it?
Tu quoque fallacy, I believe.

[CHF]

Let's keep in mind that the Croats, Bosnian and Albanian Muslims sided with Hitler in WWII.

Whereas ...

"SERBS COST HITLER WW II"

Did I mention how apologists for Serb war crimes like to live off of past glories as a way of whitewashing crimes of the modern day?

Thanks for the reminder, BeA.

[BeAChooser]

No one has ever claimed that the Serbs committed all atrocities in the Balkan wars.

Really? Look at the articles WildCat posted to me on this issue. There is not one word in any of those articles about anything but Serb atrocities. Not one word.

But let's think back to how the Srebrenica situation started, shall we? In early April 1992 Serbian paramilitaries, backed by the JNA, swept into the region and began killing and expelling the Muslim population from places like Bileljina, Zvornik, Visegrad....

No, let's look at what happened before that ... say during WWII. Do you know?

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0404/0404naziconnection.htm "The Nazi connection to Islamic terrorism By Samuel L. Blumenfeld ... snip ... Chuck Morse's latest book, The Nazi Connection to Islamic Terrorism: Adolf Hitler and Haj Amin al-Husseini, provides the clearest, most incisive history of how Islamo-fascism and Jihad terrorism have become the dominant political philosophy in the Arab world. Overlooked in the history books is the fact that about 100,000 European Muslims fought on the Nazi side in World War II. They included two Bosnian Muslim Waffen SS Divisions, an Albanian Waffen SS Division in Kosovo and Western Macedonia, the Waffengruppe der-SS Krim, formations consisting of Chechen Muslims from Chechnya, and other Muslim formations in Bosnia-Hercegovina. Bosnian Muslims who were in the Croatian pro-Nazi Ustasha were especially brutal toward the Christian Serbs. In 1943, a report on Ustasha activities stated: "The Ustasha terror began in Mostar. The Ustashi, the majority of them local Mohammedans, are arresting, looking, and shipping off Serbs or killing them and throwing the bodies in the Neretva River. They are throwing Serbs alive into chasms and are burning whole families in their homes. Outside of Zagreb the strongest Ustasha hotbed is Sarajevo. The Muslims committed unbelievable barbarities for they murdered women and children even with scissors."

Maybe this from Encyclopedia Britannica 15th Edition 1991 (before it was rewritten to be more politically correct) will help you get the big picture: "In Croatia [in 1941] the indeginous fascist regime set about a policy of "racial purification" that went beyond even Nazi practices. Minority groups such as Jews and Gypsies were to be eliminated as were the Serbs: it was declared that one-third of the Serbian population would be deported, one-third converted to Roman Catholicism, and one third liquidated. ... Ustasha bands terrorized the countryside."

The Worldmark Encyclopedia of the Nations, Europe, edition 1995 states "Soon Ustasha bands initiated a bloody orgy of mass murder of Serbs unfortunate enough not to have converted or left Croatia on time. The enormity of such criminal behavior shocked even the conscience of German commanders, but Pavelic had Hitler's personal support for such actions which resulted in the loss of the lives of hundreds of thousands of Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. In addition, the Ustasa regime organized extermination camps, the most notorious one at Jasenovac where Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and other opponents were massacred in large numbers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp "Jasenovac concentration camp ... snip ... was the largest concentration and extermination camp in Croatia during World War II. It was established by the Ustaša (Ustasha) regime of the Independent State of Croatia in August 1941. It was dismantled in April 1945. Unlike other concentration and extermination camps, in Jasenovac the main victims were ethnic Serbs,"

ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE HOLOCAUST, Vol. 2, page 739, ... snip ... Jasenovac, the largest concentration and extermination camp in Croatia. Jasenovac was in fact a complex of several subcamps, in close proximity to each other, on bank of the Sava River, about 63 miles (100km) south of Zagreb. The women's camp of Stara Gradiska, which was farther away, also belonged to the complex. Jasenovac was established in August 1941 and was dismantled only in April 1945. The creation of the camp and its management and supervision were entrusted to Department II of the Croatian Security Police (Ustaska Narodna Sluzba, UNS), headed by Vjekoslav (Maks) Luburic, who was personally responsible for everything that happened there. Scores of Ustase (Croatian fascists) served in the camp. ... snip ... SOME SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WERE MURDERED AT JASENOVAC, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of the ustasa regime. ... snip ... The acts of murder and of the cruelty in the camp reached their peak in the late summer of 1942, when tens of thousands of Serbian villagers were deported to Jasenovac from the area of the fighting against the partisans in the Kozara Mountains. Most of the men were killed in Jasenovac. The women were sent for forced labor in Germany, and the children were taken from their mothers, some were murdered and others were dispersed in orphanages throughout the country."

Let's see ... Jasenovac was 62 miles southeast of Zagreb ... that would make it about about the same distance from Srebrenica. Hmmmmmm ...

Here's more on this Croation and Muslim run death factory: http://www.jasenovac.org/whatwasjasenovac.php

Now do you REALLY, REALLY want to compare holocausts and who were the real ethnic victims in that region?

How about we explore the Ustasha connection a little more.

http://www.jasenovac-info.com/cd/jasenovac/index_en.html "There were more than two million Serbs living in the newly created puppet state, who made up one third of the entire population of the NDH. There were also significant numbers of Jews, Romanies and members of other national groups. As soon as the NDH was proclaimed, the leader of this Italo-German fabrication, the head of the Ustasha named Ante Paveli?, began to carry out the Ustasha's program of the creation of a "purely Croatian area for living" and a "pure Croat nation". Namely, since the Ustasha were extreme nationalists, chauvinists and racists, they began to build their own state and institutions which reflected those of Nazi Germany. ... snip ... Claiming that the Serbs were both racially and religiously different from the Croats, they killed them, deported them or forcibly converted them. The Jews and Romanies were to be completely annihilated as they were considered to be lower races. The Ustasha government and its jurisdiction passed a series of laws, orders and regulations by which Nazi-fascist methods of terror and ethnic genocide were made legal (the Regulation on the Outlawing of the Cyrillic Alphabet, the Regulation on Racial Affiliation, the Regulation on Citizenship, the Regulation on Conversion from One Religion to Another, and so on). Yet, the most massive crime against the Serbs, Jews and Romanies was carried out outside the framework of those laws and legal documents. The Ustasha acted on their racial, religious and national intolerance without regard for any kind of laws or norms. [b]The Ustasha government was supported by the greater part of the Catholic clergy and the Muslim religious community"

http://www.counterpunch.org/schutz06052004.html "This program of mass slaughter and genocide resulted in a widespread resistance by the Serbian population. Genocide led to civil war. The German and Italian military occupation of the NDH was forced to deploy troops to the NDH and to engage in a counterinsurgency guerrilla war. The Croatian leaders sought to suppress the Serbian resistance to genocide by establishing Ustasha military forces to put down the Serbian insurrections in Bosnia-Hercegocina. One such unit that was formed in Sarajevo was the 1st Ustasha Regiment, known as The Black Legion or Crna Legija, made up of Croats and Bosnian Muslims. The Regiment murdered thousands of Serbian civilians and POWs in Bosnia. The Black Legion was crucial in carrying out the genocide against the Serbian population in Bosnia-Hercegovina during World War II. The systematic genocide conducted against the Serbian population of Bosnia-Hercegovina by Croats and Bosnian Muslims in 1941 led to a widespread Serbian resistance campaign that threatened the NDH. Serbian guerrillas took control of towns and cities in eastern Bosnia such as Srebrenica, Vlasenica, Kravica, and Rogatica. The NDH Ustasha occupation forces consisting mainly of Bosnian Muslims were driven out. The German military occupation of the NDH was thereby endangered. The response was to form Croatian/Bosnian Muslim military units to retake the towns and cities in eastern Bosnia seized by the Serbian guerrillas. These Croatian units would be used in German and Italian military counterinsurgency operations. The 1st Ustasha Regiment was formed for this purpose."

So it looks like there is PLENTY of blood on the hands of the Muslims and Croatians. Funny how all those articles you folks posted and the mainstream commentary on those nasty Serbs never mention any of this.

Serb war crime appologists like to start the Srebrenica chronology with those Oric raids and ignore how the situation came to be in the first place.

And Croatian/Muslim war crime apologists like to start AFTER those two ACTUALLY STARTED the Bosnian war and long after the events of WW2 that led to those two groups taking over the region from Serbs in the first place.


Quote:
They actually started the war ... with an atrocity against civilians.

Remember, folks: in the world inhabited by BeA

If you insist on abbreviating my screen name, at least use the abbreviation that everyone else does ... BAC.

the Serb attack on eastern and northern Bosnia, which killed thousands of people, was actually a response to a Serbian guy (yup, one guy) being killed by a Muslim at a wedding party in Sarajevo.

No, it was a little more complicated than that:

http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/bosnia-started.htm "BOSNIA: How the war started ... snip ... On March 18, 1992, Alija Izetbegovic (Bosnian-Muslim leader), Mate Boban (Bosnian-Croat leader), and Radovan Karadzic (Bosnian-Serb Leader) all reached an agreement on the peaceful succession of Bosnia & Herzegovina from Yugoslavia. The Agreement was known as the Lisbon Agreement (it is also known as the Cutileiro Plan). The agreement called for an independent Bosnia divided into three constituent and geographically separate parts, each of which would be autonomous. Izetbegovic, Boban, and Karadzic all agreed to the plan, and signed the agreement. ... snip ... On March 28, 1992, ten days after the agreement was reached that would have avoided war in Bosnia, Warren Zimmerman (BAC - US Ambassador) showed up in Sarajevo and met with the Bosnian-Muslim leader, Alija Izetbegovic. Upon finding that Izetbegovic was having second thoughts about the agreement he had signed in Lisbon, the Ambassador suggested that if he withdrew his signature, the United States would grant recognition to Bosnia as an independent state. Izetbegovic then withdrew his signature and renounced the agreement. After Izetbegovic reneged on the Lisbon Agreement, he called a referendum on separation that was constitutionally illegal. On the second day of the referendum there was a Muslim-led attack on a Serb wedding. But the real trigger was Izetbegovic announcing a full mobilization on April 4, 1992. He could not legally do that without Serb & Croat consent, but he did it anyway. That night terror reigned in Sarajevo. The war was on."

And of course all the events that preceded that. I guess those never happened in the world inhabited by you. If so, who is the real holocaust denier? :rolleyes:

[BeAChooser]

There were 300,000 IDPs before a single NATO bomb had fallen.

Well first of all, I was responding to the implication that 800,000 had fled Kosovo due to serb brutality. On that score note that the bombing started on March 24, 1999.

The following is from a presention by Commander Fabrizio Maltinti of NATO on 13th May 1999 (http://www.nato.int/koSovo/press/p990513b.htm ):

http://www.nato.int/pictures/1999/990513/b990513e.gif

Add the numbers up on Mar 29th. They total less than 100,000. Add the numbers on May 12th. You get about 700,000. And that's the total in Montenegro, FYROM and Albania.

Now you want to switch to talking about IDPs ... internally displaced persons (those who remain inside their country). Would you like to offer a source for the claim that 300,000 people had been driven from their homes in Kosovo before a single NATO bomb fell? I'd love to see this source. ;)

Some might find this a more interesting (and illuminating) look at the REAL Kosovo refugee situation ... compared to what the press was telling us (and now you seem to be trying to tell us):

http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg030205.htm
KOSOVO’S EUROPEAN UNION MONITORING MISSION CHIEF TESTIFIES IN MILOSEVIC’S DEFENSE, March 2, 2005, by Andy Wilcoxson

The Milosevic trial heard testimony from two defense witnesses on Wednesday. Mirko Babic, a Macedonian medical technician, who provided medical treatment to Albanian refugees during the Kosovo war, and Dietmar Hartwig, the head of the European Monitoring Mission in Kosovo from November 1998 until March 19, 1999.

The first witness of the day was Mirko Babic. Babic provided direct medical treatment to Albanian refugees in the refugee camps in Macedonia. He was in the camps everyday throughout the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia.

As a first-hand eyewitness, Babic did not see a single Albanian who had been beaten or shot by Serbian security forces. According to his testimony the most common medical complaint was respiratory ailments, people would gets colds, sore throats, bronchitis, etc… None of the Albanians showed any traces of having been physically mistreated.

Babic said that the Albanians initially said that they were fleeing Kosovo to escape the NATO bombing, but they changed their story later and began to say that the Serbs had chased them out and violently mistreated them. Babic said that one elderly Albanian man even told him that the KLA had chased him out of Kosovo.

... snip ...

Babic saw a group of refugees stealing a stretcher from the medical supplies. Then he saw them put a perfectly healthy man on the stretcher and a Western news crew filmed it. After the camera crew had finished, the man jumped up from the stretcher, and all of the people involved in this little production smiled and said their good-byes to each other.

... snip ...

The witness identified CNN and the BBC as being the most responsible for rigging false news footage.

Babic corroborated the testimony of earlier witnesses, and said that the Albanian refugees mistreated the Roma refugees. He said that the Roma had to be taken to separate camps in order to save them from the Albanians.

... snip ...

The next witness on the docket was Dietmar Hartwig.

... snip ...

When the EUMM was evacuated ahead of the NATO aggression, Mr. Hartwig returned to Germany. He was shocked to see the Western media coverage regarding Kosovo. He told the tribunal that there was a massive contradiction between the reality on the ground and the media’s reporting.

When he was in Kosovo, he had occasion to see how the media and certain Western NGO’s reported inaccurately. Mr. Hartwig personally went to the Pristina Stadium when he heard media reports that the Serbs had a concentration camp there to imprison Albanians. He testified that he did not find any evidence of any camp there.

On another occasion Serbs were accused of massacring Albanians in Srbica and burying the bodies in a mass-grave. Mr. Hartwig went to the spot, and found out that 40 Albanians had indeed been killed, but not by the Serbs. An eyewitness told him that the Albanians had killed each other in a blood feud.

Mr. Hartwig said that the KLA provoked clashes, and that the Yugoslav Army and Serbian Police only responded to provocations. It was Hartwig’s opinion that the Serbian response was always carried out in a disciplined fashion.

The witness expressed concern over the fact that reports he sent to European capitals regarding the situation in Kosovo were not reflected in the official publications of those governments. He said that when he took over as head of the mission his colleagues told him that there was an ongoing contradiction between what was reported to EU governments and what those same governments told their people.

... snip ...

In all of Mr. Hartwig’s time in Kosovo, up until he evacuated five days before the NATO aggression, he never saw or received any reports of Serbian security forces expelling Albanians from their homes. Nor did he have information about any other mistreatment perpetrated by Serb military or police against Albanians.

Mr. Hartwig, as the EUMM chief in Kosovo, was in regular contact with both Serb and Albanian leaders. Hartwig testified that the Serbs wanted to find a peaceful solution that was equitable for everybody in Kosovo. Whereas the Albanians wanted to establish a mono-ethnic Albanian-dominated Kosovo that would be linked-up with Albania.

... snip ...

Mr. Hartwig testified that the KLA were always the ones who provoked clashes. He said unequivocally that the Yugoslav Army and Serbian police never provoked any fighting.

He went on to testify that the army and the police restrained themselves from carrying out retaliation or revenge attacks against the KLA. He said that Gen. Lukic was very keen to abide by the Milosevic-Holbrooke agreement so that Serbia could not be accused of negotiating in bad faith.

Mr. Hartwig said that the Serbian police did their best to protect the lives of civilians. He testified that he never saw or received any reports of Serb forces attacking civilians in Kosovo. He said that there were cases when civilians would get caught in the cross-fire between the police and the KLA, but that the KLA was always the one who started the fighting, usually by ambushing the police.

The witness testified that the UNHCR exaggerated the number of IDP’s in Kosovo. In one case they reported a group of 3,000 IDP’s near the Macedonian border, but when EUMM observers arrived to checkout the scene they only found 400 IDP’s.

In other cases the UNHCR would say that a certain number of IDP’s had fled from a certain village, and the number of IDP’s they reported would be two or three times more than the population of the village.



As for the rest, they were mostly fleeing the Serb paramilitaries who stepped-up their expulsions once the bombing started.

See the above quoted sources. They would disagree with you. And they testified under oath.

I will agree with you that the level of violence in Kosovo before March 1999 did not warrant the label of "genocide"

Yet that is the description that was used daily and incessantly with claims that hundreds of thousands (some statements said half a million) were already dead or feared dead in the violence. Some would call that use propaganda. I think I would. Especially since I know that Clinton was looking for something to take the Cox report (i.e., his treason) off the front page.

Quote:
Speaking about that, what about the 160,000 to 200,000 Kosovo Serbs who SINCE the KLA and NATO/UN took over Kosovo have been driven out of their homes and forced to flee to Serbia? Have you no compassion for them? None at all?

I have as much compassion for them as I do the 10 million Germans expelled from Eastern Europe at the end of WWII.

Again, do I have to remind you that the Serbs were in the region BEFORE the Muslims even arrived? And remind you that it was the Muslims who sided with the Nazis in WWII. That it was the Muslims and Croats in WWII who waged a REAL campaign of genocide (with death camps that actually did murder hundreds of thousands)? Most of the serbs fought that and made an exceedingly valuable contribution to ending the Nazi menace.

But I suppose that's what happens when one's leaders set out to murder and cleanse other people, huh?

Based on the many sources I've posted above, I don't believe you've actually proven that. In fact, I don't think you have a sense of history at all. :D

[BeAChooser]

The war didn't start in Summer/Winter 1992, BeA.

Go back and reread the context in which I offered those examples of Muslim on Serb atrocities. I wasn't making a comparison to the start of the war. I offered those cases as being before the Srebrenica *massacre* which happened in 1995.

[dudalb]

Did I mention how apologists for Serb war crimes like to live off of past glories as a way of whitewashing crimes of the modern day?

Thanks for the reminder, BeA.


Be A Chooser would be one hell of a good Holocaust denier. He has the technique down exactly.

[BeAChooser]

Did I mention how apologists for Serb war crimes like to live off of past glories as a way of whitewashing crimes of the modern day?

By all means, point out in this thread where I've apologized for any Serb war crime that you actually proved happened. That's the problem. Much of what you claim happened may not have happened at all if the sources I posted are right. At the trials, one of the star prosecution witnesses claimed to have helped kill 1200 people in just a few short hours. Yet they haven't been able to find the bodies. And this REAL mass murderer (if you believe his story) is now a free man with a job ... courtesy of people like you.

And your dislike of war criminals would be a lot more credible if you showed an equal measure of dislike for non-serb ones. You throw out the word genocide and holocaust without really appreciating what that is or recognizing that of all the groups contesting one another in the region only the serbs have been the real victims of such terminology. And it was at the hands of the groups you seem to be so concerned about.

[BeAChooser]

Be A Chooser would be one hell of a good Holocaust denier. He has the technique down exactly.

What technique would that be? All I've done is note some facts and logic that you appear to have trouble challenging. So out come the adhominins. And by the way, I am not a Holocaust denier. Are you ... where what happened to the serbs is concerned?

[CHF]

No, let's look at what happened before that ... say during WWII.

Like I said, apologists for Serbian war crimes like to live in the past. In your world, murdering a family in 1992 is understandable given what some Croat or Muslim did in 1944.

I know all about the savagery of the Ustashe and the impact their crimes had on the psyche of the Serbian people.

Frankly, I even understand why the Serbs didn't want to live in a Croat state or a Muslim/Croat-majority state in Bosnia. Do I think the fears of the Serbian people justify what the Serbs started doing in Spring of 1992? Well there's where you and I differ, I suppose. If you want to think that the events of 1941-45 excuse what happened in the 1990s then that's fine. Just don't expect much understanding from the rest of the planet.

I loved your explanation for how the war really started...

http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/bosnia-started.htm

Slobodan-milosevic.org, huh? Oh boy... :rolleyes:

On March 18, 1992, Alija Izetbegovic (Bosnian-Muslim leader), Mate Boban (Bosnian-Croat leader), and Radovan Karadzic (Bosnian-Serb Leader) all reached an agreement on the peaceful succession of Bosnia & Herzegovina from Yugoslavia. The Agreement was known as the Lisbon Agreement (it is also known as the Cutileiro Plan). The agreement called for an independent Bosnia divided into three constituent and geographically separate parts, each of which would be autonomous. Izetbegovic, Boban, and Karadzic all agreed to the plan, and signed the agreement. ...

At Lisbon the three parties agreed to divide Bosnia along ethnic lines - something the Serbs and Croats had long supported but Izetbegovic had long opposed.

But they did not agree on a precise breakdown of territory.

This is an important detail that is often overlooked. There was no final deal in place! All that was agreed to was the concept of ethnic partition.

As we later saw, for every claim to a town by one group there was often a counter-claim by another. There is no reason to believe that the incompatible desires of each group could have been resolved without bloodshed. The Serbs were determined to stay in Yugoslavia, together with their ethnic kin in Bosnia, while the Croats and Muslims wanted out.

Izetbegovic withdrew from the deal hoping there might still be hope for a unified Bosnia. Fearing attacks by Serb paramilitaries (given what had already transpired in Croatia) he called for mobilization and even naively hoped that the JNA might step in to control whatever unrest followed.

Sadly, he didn't bank on the JNA joining Arkan and company which explains why the Muslims were so hopelessly unprepared for war once it came on April 8.

Yup, those villagers in the Drina Valley were a real threat to Serbia, weren't they? Why I'm sure they were all preparing to ambush a Serbian wedding party so thank goodness your heroes neutralized them.

[dudalb]

What technique would that be? All I've done is note some facts and logic that you appear to have trouble challenging. So out come the adhominins. And by the way, I am not a Holocaust denier. Are you ... where what happened to the serbs is concerned?

So what happened in the 40's justifies the Serbian atrocities in the 90's.
And trying to make a hero out of Milosovic just makes you look sillier and sillier.

[dudalb]

dp

[Darth Rotor]

Oh for heaven's sake....

I forgot that the Serbs were such nice people. I must remember and mention this to the Bosnians and the Croats, the next time I meet them.

Mods, can we have this moved to AAH because it's just descending into two sides ranting at each other, plus FreeRomanian's continual shouting.
My grandmother was a Serb, and a damned decent woman. Raised three kids, two of them after her second husband died in a flood, her first husband having died due to a gas attack in WW I after he got conscripted by the Austiran army after Austria and friends invaded Serbia.

Care to play the bigot some more, Architect, or are you willing to admit that maybe, just maybe, Serbs are people too.

(Milosovic, on the other hand, sure did a great job of symbolizing the ******* within, no question about that.)

As to your heroes, the Croats did a lovely job in the attempted genocide of Serbs during WW II. Pick a number between 300,000 and 1,000,000, the accounts vary, and you'll find the Ustasi of Croatia and a certain Catholic cardinal up to their arses is Serb blood.

If you peel the onion back a bit on the early 1990s, and the civil war in Yugoslavia, you will not only find a lot of ******** with varied dialects, you will find that the German and Italian links to the Croats were significant contributors to who chose what sides in someone else's civil war.

DR

[BeAChooser]

In your world, murdering a family in 1992 is understandable given what some Croat or Muslim did in 1944.

This debating technique of yours is rather despicable and tiresome. I've said nothing to suggest I sanction murder. Or that I'm denying that what you describe is an atrocity.

I'm trying to remind you that there is a long history in this case ... one with hatred on both sides spanning centuries. A history where one party actually did suffer genocide on a truly massive scale ... at the hands of the other parties.

For the West to step in and blatantly side with the parties that committed that genocide, especially when those parties were currently linked to terrorism and international crimes, especially when all the parties had already worked out an equitable agreement that would have avoided bloodshed, is foolish at best.

We may rue the day we turned that region of the world into a Muslim ruled domain where the rulers are linked to Osama Bin Ladin, the KLA and Nazi Death Camp operators.

Frankly, I even understand why the Serbs didn't want to live in a Croat state or a Muslim/Croat-majority state in Bosnia.

And yet, that is what you've now imposed on them. That choice or leaving land they've owned for centuries. Or more likely simply being driven off the land as has happened in Kosovo.

Do I think the fears of the Serbian people justify what the Serbs started doing in Spring of 1992?

Once again, the Serbs did not start that war. And it looks like Muslims have just as many atrocities to their name in that war as any Serbs do. But if anyone in the region had the right to proclaim, "Never Again", it was the serbs.

But they did not agree on a precise breakdown of territory. All that was agreed to was the concept of ethnic partition.

Actually, the agreement was that each of the three groups would be able to control regions that were predominantly made up of that group. And yes, there were still details to work out but the US didn't give them time to do that. Our ambassador convinced the Muslim leader to withdraw from it on the promise that we'd recognize their independence and control over areas where they weren't the predominant ethnicity. And that was the spark that set the war off. And you know what's really funny? The Dayton Accords that ended the fighting gave the Muslims less territory than was guaranteed by the Lisbon Agreement.

Izetbegovic withdrew from the deal hoping there might still be hope for a unified Bosnia. Fearing attacks by Serb paramilitaries (given what had already transpired in Croatia) he called for mobilization and even naively hoped that the JNA might step in to control whatever unrest followed.

Izetbegovic had no authority to mobilize anything at that point. Bosnia was headed by a JOINT presidency which included Bosnian Serb members who deemed the mobilization illegal. Bosnia-Hercegovina was still a republic of Yugoslavia. The referendum on independence (which again he had no legitimate authority to call for in the first place) had not taken place. And Bosnia had not yet been recognized as an independent nation by anyone. Yet he not only mobilized but ORDERED the Yugoslav army to leave what was then equivalent to a state of Yugoslavia.

I don't know about you but that looks like a power grab that would have made any Serb nervous given the history of the Muslims in the region and that man in particular. You see Izetbegovic was a member of the Young Muslims, a group that recruited Muslim units for the Nazi SS during WWII. After the war, he was sentenced to three years in prison for his wartime activities. In his 1970 book, Muslim Declaration, he wrote: "There can be no peace or coexistence between Islamic faith and non-Islamic faith and institutions. The Islamic movement must and can take power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough, not only to destroy the non-Islamic power, but to build up a new Islamic one."

[BeAChooser]

So what happened in the 40's justifies the Serbian atrocities in the 90's.

Did I say that? I suggest you read my last post to CHF.

[MarkCorrigan]

My grandmother was a Serb, and a damned decent woman. Raised three kids, two of them after her second husband died in a flood, her first husband having died due to a gas attack in WW I after he got conscripted by the Austiran army after Austria and friends invaded Serbia.

Care to play the bigot some more, Architect, or are you willing to admit that maybe, just maybe, Serbs are people too.

Either you're being deliberately obtuse, you're unable to comprehend simple english, or you're insane.

Was Architect saying all Serbs were evil, lying murderers? Let's see.......ohhh, I'm sorry, we have a big fat "of course not". Well, that's harmed your chances of progressing to the next round, so now, you decide, what heppens next?

[BeAChooser]

Here's a fresh example of how unfair the treatment of Serbs has been.

http://balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/9128/ "Kosovo PM Not Gulity Of War Crimes, 03 April 2008, Former Kosovo Prime Minister, Ramush Haradinaj has been found not guilty by The Hague War Crimes Tribunal. Haradinaj was accused of taking part in a conspiracy to drive Serbs out of Kosovo through murder, rape and torture. ... snip ... "This demonstrates once more that the war waged by the Kosovo Liberation Army was just and in accordance with international conventions,” the statement signed by Prime Minister Hashim Thaci read. ... snip ... Moderate Kosovo Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic said Kosovar Albanian commanders should be held responsible under the same criteria as other military leaders and that is a chain of command responsibility. He added that “Haradinaj was in charge of Pec, Decan and Djakovica region where more than 200 Serbs were killed or abducted in 1998-1999 and afterwards."

http://voanews.com/english/2008-04-03-voa43.cfm "Judges said they found it difficult "to conclude whether a crime was committed or whether the KLA was involved" based on the prosecution's evidence, which they called "insufficient," "vague, inconclusive, or nonexistent" on almost all of the 37 counts. That includes the 30 bodies found in a canal that prosecutors allege were victims of the KLA, but which judges ruled were inconclusive." ... snip ... [b]Judge Orie pointed out that getting evidence in this case was an uphill battle for prosecutors. "The chamber gained the strong impression that the trial was being held in an atmosphere where witnesses felt unsafe," he said. About one-third of the 100 prosecution witnesses received protective measures and another one-fifth of them had to be subpoenaed to testify. Two of them have been arrested and are being held in contempt of court for refusing to testify." ... snip ... "I think this is the logical outcome of pro-western court, which is made to demonize Serbs, not Albanians," said Petrovic. "And this is a pure example of it. I did not expect anything else but that."

http://www.un.org/icty/pressreal/2005/p946-e.htm "INDICTMENT AGAINST RAMUSH HARADINAJ, IDRIZ BALAJ* AND LAHI BRAHIMAJ RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC ... snip ... At all times relevant to the indictment, he (BAC - Ramush Haradinaj) was a commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) and had overall command of the KLA forces in one of the KLA operational zones, called Dukagjin. He was one of the most senior KLA leaders in Kosovo. ... snip ... The indictment alleges that the joint criminal enterprise of which the accused were members came into existence on or before April 1998 and that it's purpose was the consolidation of total control of the KLA over the KLA operational zone of Dukagjin by attacking and persecuting certain sections of the civilian population there, namely the unlawful removal of Serb civilians from that area, and the forcible, violent suppression of any real or perceived form of collaboration with the Serbs by Albanian or Roma civilians there. ... snip ... Ramush Haradinaj is charged with: • 17 counts of crimes against humanity - Article 5 of the Tribunal’s Statute: persecution (harassment, inhumane acts, destruction of property, unlawful detention, deportation or forcible transfer of civilians, murder, rape); inhumane acts; deportation and other inhumane acts; imprisonment and other inhumane acts; murders and other inhumane acts; rape and other inhumane acts, and • 20 counts of violations of the laws or customs of war – Article 3 of the Tribunal’s Statute: cruel treatment; murders; rape. ... snip ... All crimes alleged in the indictment occurred between 1 March 1998 and 30 September 1998 in the territory of Kosovo in the former Yugoslavia and were directed against the Serb civilian population and those members of the Albanian and Roma/Egyptian civilian population in Decani/Deçan, Pec/Pejë, Djakovica/Gjakovë, Istok/Istog and Kline/Klinë municipalities perceived to be collaborators or not supporting the KLA."

We may rue the day Clinton put the KLA in control of Kosovo.

Here's a little more history ...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/091000-01.htm "Published on Sunday, September 10, 2000 in the London Observer (UK),
US 'Covered Up' For Kosovo Ally, ... snip ... American officials in Kosovo are being accused of interfering with an investigation into a senior Kosovo Albanian politician implicated in murder, drug-trafficking and war crimes. Ramush Haradinaj, a former commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), was the key US military and intelligence asset in Kosovo during the civil war and the Nato bombing campaign that followed. ... snip ... United Nations police in the province complain that US personnel withheld evidence about a gunfight involving Haradinaj ... snip ... UN investigators leading the case say US officials based at their main base, Camp Bondsteel, removed forensic evidence from the scene of the gun battle, including bullets retrieved from walls. The incident, which took place in the village of Strellc in the west of Kosovo, is well out of the US Army's area of responsibility, which lies in the south-east of the province. Following the shooting Haradinaj ... snip ... was flown by helicopter to Camp Bondsteel and then onto Germany to be treated in an US Army hospital for shrapnel wounds. UN investigators were denied access to him during that time. ... snip ... The shooting revolved around a dispute between Haradinaj and members of the Musaj family, who accuse him of ordering the murder of their brother and three other men shortly after the arrival of Nato troops in Kosovo in June 1999. The men were all part of FARK (Armed Force of the Republic of Kosovo ), a rival group to the Kosovo Liberation Army ... snip ... This is the second time this year Haradinaj has been caught up in violence. He was injured in a fight with Russian soldiers at a K-For checkpoint in the spring. ... snip ... British military personnel who liaised with Haradinaj before and during the Nato bombing campaign paint a different picture. One former soldier, who served with the Kosovo Verification Mission, described him as 'a psychopath' and accused him of terrorising his own men and the local population into loyalty to him. 'He would beat his own men to maintain a kind of military discipline,' he said. 'Someone would pass him some information and he would disappear for two hours. The end result would be several bodies in a ditch,' he added" ... snip ... senior UN officials are concerned about Haradinaj's long-term impact on the province. One aide claims Haradinaj is now financed by two men, Naser Kelmendi and Ekrem Lluka, both of whom are suspected to be involved in smuggling. UN police reports seen by The Observer, go further and describe Lluka as trafficking drugs and cigarettes in Greece, Kosovo, Albania and Italy."

Yes, indeed, that's our *friend* in Kosovo ... or should I start saying Kosova. :D

[BeAChooser]

Here's one more little tidbit regarding Ramush Haradinaj and his *fair* trial:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/world/europe/04kosovo.html?_r=1&ex=1364961600&en=58d3cf17ad272c8b&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss&oref=slogin "Lawyers said that in no other case before the tribunal had witness intimidation been so widespread. ... snip ... Prosecutors complained repeatedly about pressure on the witnesses, saying that those most afraid were former rebel fighters who had been expected to testify as insiders. At least three designated witnesses were killed before the trial, prosecutors said."

It seems the prosecution’s chief witness, Tahir Zemaj, and his son and nephew were shot dead during the investigation. Another witness, Kjutim Berisha, died two weeks before the trial when he was hit by a car in Podgorica, the Montenegren capital. What a coincidence.

[CHF]

I'm trying to remind you that there is a long history in this case ... one with hatred on both sides spanning centuries. A history where one party actually did suffer genocide on a truly massive scale ... at the hands of the other parties.

There is no need for any reminders. I know what happened in 1941-45. I simply object to you using a genocide from WWII to excuse or justify mass murder in 1992. And yes, that is exactly what you're doing.

For example, you state....

For the West to step in and blatantly side with the parties that committed that genocide...

Please explain to me how the Bosnian Muslims of the 1990s "committed that genocide."

As if that wasn't silly enough, you follow up with this...

We may rue the day we turned that region of the world into a Muslim ruled domain where the rulers are linked to Osama Bin Ladin, the KLA and Nazi Death Camp operators.

Linked to Nazi Death Camp operators? :eek: How exactly? By being of the same ethnic group, 50 years later?

Such a mentality is a perfect example of why these conflicts simply refuse to die off. There always seem to be folks around who will insist that someone born in 1965 or 1978 was somehow responsible for a murder that took place decades before they were born.

As for the Serb propaganda about a Muslim region ruled by Al Qaeda, the Muslims of the Balkans are among the most moderate and secular in the world - which probably explains why that sales pitch didn't work so well. Balkan Muslims are of Ottoman/Turkish stock - not Saudi, Pakistani or Afghan. You are far more likely to find radical Muslims in London, Paris, or Rotterdam than you are in Sarajevo or Pristina.

And yes, I know all about the Islamic radicals of the 7th Muslim brigade. but they arrived after the Serbs decided to start clearing out their ethnically pure state, so they don't really provide a good reason for going to war. Sort of like how Al Qaeda militants who set up shop in Iraq after the US invasion don't really serve to justify said invasion unless we're willing to forget all about the chronology of events.

And yet, that is what you've now imposed on them.

I have not imposed a Muslim state on the Serbs and neither has anyone else. Izetbegovic actually wanted a united Bosnia while Croat and Serbs nationalists wanted to tear it apart. While I understand the fears of the Serb people, I cannot see their actions as being at all proportional to the threat they supposedly faced.

Once again, the Serbs did not start that war.

Right - the guy who shot up a Serb wedding did. :rolleyes:

Actually, the agreement was that each of the three groups would be able to control regions that were predominantly made up of that group.

True. Now explain to me how that formula would have been applied peacefully to places like Mostar and the Croat/Muslim patchwork of Central Bosnia, Sarajevo, the Drina Valley and Northern Bosnia.

Izetbegovic, to his credit, tried to avoid tearing apart Bosnia along ethnic lines, but sadly he turned out to be a dreamer given the sentiments of the other two parties.

Izetbegovic had no authority to mobilize anything at that point. Bosnia was headed by a JOINT presidency which included Bosnian Serb members who deemed the mobilization illegal.

Meanwhile, the JNA were passing out weapons to the Bosnian Serbs.

The referendum on independence (which again he had no legitimate authority to call for in the first place) had not taken place.

I seem to recall the Serbs boycotting that referendum.

Frankly, this conspiracy about a Muslim "power grab" looks pretty shabby in light of the crushing victories achieved by the Serbs in the early stages of the war. Izetbegovic had such a well-oiled military machine that he ended up using street gangs and local mafia thugs to defend Sarajevo for much of the war.

Look, in no way do I believe that the wars in Yugoslavia were entirely the fault of the Serbs. The Muslim leadership proved itself to be stubborn, foolish, and at times brutal. The Croats, meanwhile, were led by ultra-nationalists who has the same kind of territorial ambitions as the Serbs in Bosnia - some units in Central Bosnia even adopted the fascist imagery of the Ustashe regime (units that fought largely against the Muslims).

I agree that international favoritism often translated into hypocritical positions being taken against the Serbs....for example, Serbia was accused of sending troops into Bosnia while Croatia did the exact same thing. Serb atrocities were given far more attention than those of the Croats and Muslims.

But why did this all happen? Why was Serbia seen as the bad guys?

Because they played the part, that's why. Serbia was the most well-armed side of the conflict and her paranoia, use of heavy weaponry, and tendency to lash out with extreme force are what ultimately lost her the war.

[Elizabeth I]

Can't we create some sort of rule to limit the length and number of words of a post?

[BeAChooser]

I simply object to you using a genocide from WWII to excuse or justify mass murder in 1992. And yes, that is exactly what you're doing.

I know it's upsetting to learn that the folks you considered such "good guys" ... aren't. I know it's upsetting to have to fact that the Serbs have been treated in an unfair manner ... with a double standard where we've chosen to IGNORE not only the past transgressions of the Croatian and Muslim leaders and people, but their more recent murderous (nah, mass murderous) activities. I know it's unpleasant to learn that you've been lied to by those you thought trustworthy ... like Bill Clinton, NATO, the UN and the liberal mainstream media. But as they say ... the truth shall set you free.


Quote:
For the West to step in and blatantly side with the parties that committed that genocide...

Please explain to me how the Bosnian Muslims of the 1990s "committed that genocide."

Did I fail to mention that Izetbegovic, the leader of the Bosnian Muslims, recruited Muslims for the Nazi military and SS back in WW2? In the same area where those Muslims and their Croat friends ran death camps where hundreds of thousands of Serbs were exterminated in concentration camps? No, I believe I did mention that. You must have just missed it. :)

Did I fail to mention that Izetbegovic, the leader of the Bosnian Muslims wrote a book in 1970 stating "There can be no peace or coexistence between Islamic faith and non-Islamic faith and institutions. The Islamic movement must and can take power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough, not only to destroy the non-Islamic power, but to build up a new Islamic one." No, I believe I did mention that. You must have just missed it. :)

Ah, but no doubt you are saying to yourself right now that he probably just changed his views in the intervening 20 years. He'd turned into a different man by 1990. One who no longer held such radical, extremist views. The only problem with that belief is that Izetbegovic reissued his book in 1990, the same year he ran for the presidency of Bosnia. So he clearly had not moderated his views. He lost that election, by the way, to a Muslim named Fikret Abdic who was actually allied with the Serbs in wanting Bosnia to remain a part of Yugoslavia. And the fact that Abdic won the election suggests the Bosnian Muslims as a group felt the same way. Making what Izetbegovic did all the more wrong.

And you want to know what else?

Now it turns out Izetbegovic was linked to Osama Bin Ladin as well. He reportedly received hundreds of thousands of dollars from bank accounts that the US froze in 2001 for laundering and financing al-Qaeda operations. And we know there were thousands of foreign mujahadeen in Bosnia fighting on the side of local Muslims in the Bosnian war. He must have been aware of that. :)

Nor had he given up his Nazi past. In a 1993 article entitled “Albanians And Afghans Fight For The Heirs To Bosnia’s SS Past,” the Daily Telegraph reported on how Izetbegovic had reconstituted the Handzar Division ... you know, the one the Muslims in the 1940's formed to support the Nazis. Here's a quote from that article: "These are the men of the Handzar division. 'We do everything with the knife, and we always fight on the frontline,” a Handzar told one U.N. officer. Up to 6000 strong, the Handzar division glories in a fascist culture. They see themselves as the heirs of the SS Handzar division, formed by Bosnian Muslims in 1943 to fight for the Nazis. ... snip ... Many of them are Albanian, whether from Kosovo [the Serb province where Albanians are the majority] or from Albania itself. They are trained and led by veterans from Afghanistan and Pakistan, say U.N. sources."

So go ahead ... tell us again how the Bosnian Muslims of the 1990s had nothing at all to do with what happened in WW2.

Such a mentality is a perfect example of why these conflicts simply refuse to die off.

Tell that to the US Ambassador who meddled with a situation where all parties had already signed an agreement to peacefully partition the area and thus sparked a bloody civil war.


As for the Serb propaganda about a Muslim region ruled by Al Qaeda, the Muslims of the Balkans are among the most moderate and secular in the world - which probably explains why that sales pitch didn't work so well.


I see you haven't looked at the sources of much I've posted. :)

Sort of like how Al Qaeda militants who set up shop in Iraq after the US invasion don't really serve to justify said invasion unless we're willing to forget all about the chronology of events.

Ah ... so you're one of those *deniers*. I hate to inform you, but you are wrong on this score too. Al Qaeda was operating in Iraq well before the US invaded. In fact, we have admissions by al-Qaeda terrorists who were captured entering Jordan with the equipment, explosives and plans to kill tens of thousands of Jordanians and Americans in an Amman chemically laced bomb attach that they met with al-Zarqawi in Baghdad before the invasion to plan the operation and that he funded the operation.

I have not imposed a Muslim state on the Serbs and neither has anyone else.I think what Izetbegovic actually wanted a united Bosnia while Croat and Serbs nationalists wanted to tear it apart.

Let me just repeat what Izetbegovic republished in 1990: "There can be no peace or coexistence between Islamic faith and non-Islamic faith and institutions. The Islamic movement must and can take power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough, not only to destroy the non-Islamic power, but to build up a new Islamic one." Now tell us what you think he meant by "united"? :rolleyes:


Quote:
Izetbegovic had no authority to mobilize anything at that point. Bosnia was headed by a JOINT presidency which included Bosnian Serb members who deemed the mobilization illegal.

Meanwhile, the JNA were passing out weapons to the Bosnian Serbs.

As was their right since Bosnia was formally a part of Yugoslavia. Also note that Izetbegovic called on Muslims not to join the JNA. So who else were the Yugoslav government supposed to arm in their conflict with Croatia ... but Serbs?

Frankly, this conspiracy about a Muslim "power grab" looks pretty shabby in light of the crushing victories achieved by the Serbs in the early stages of the war.

No, it just means that Izetbegovic overreached and that Muslims found out how good the Serb military really was ... as the US would find out later in Kosovo.


Look, in no way do I believe that the wars in Yugoslavia were entirely the fault of the Serbs. ... snip ... I agree that international favoritism often translated into hypocritical positions being taken against the Serbs

Well at least we are making progress. :)

Serbia was the most well-armed side of the conflict and her paranoia, use of heavy weaponry, and tendency to lash out with extreme force are what ultimately lost her the war.

No, what lost Serbia the war was having to put her resources up against that of the US and most of Europe. Plus the fact that the US and NATO were willing to commit war crimes such as bombing civilian facilities in Serbia rather than face the Serb army on their own ground.

[Gurdur]

Can't we create some sort of rule to limit the length and number of words of a post?

You don't need a rule, it's a vBulletin option easily re-set by admins.

What we need though is a rule and the technics for automatically having certain long posts posted only in Rumanian.

[MarkCorrigan]

Deleted.

[figarot]

A bit off topic, but what I admired about the Serbs was that during the NATO bombing campaign (unjust IMHO) in '99 they managed to take down a stealth bomber. Only case I know of it being that easy to drop a stealth bomber out of the sky.

[Architect]

Knowing the Yanks, they probably took it out themselves with friendly fire......

;)

[Loss Leader]

FILM proving EVERYTHING you knew about KOSOVO was a LIE!


All I know about Kosovo is that it is a location on the earth. Was that a lie?

[CHF]

I know it's upsetting to learn that the folks you considered such "good guys" ... aren't.

No one in the 1990s was a "good guy." Some were just less bad than others.

Did I fail to mention that Izetbegovic, the leader of the Bosnian Muslims, recruited Muslims for the Nazi military and SS back in WW2?

He was an SS recruiter at the age of 17-18, huh?

From Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/alija-izetbegovic)

During the Second World War Izetbegovic joined the Islamic "Mlada Bosna" organization which opposed the Croat Fascist state of which Bosnia was then part.

Speaking of collaborating with the Nazis, I recall seeing many Serb fighters in the 1990s wearing Chetnik caps and insignia. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Chetniks collaborate with the Nazis? In fact, didn't a fair number of them get incorporated into the Waffen-SS?

I don't suspect you'd care to paint the Serbs with the same SS/Nazi brush that you've used to accuse the 1990s Bosnians of being reponsible for genocide.

Did I fail to mention that Izetbegovic, the leader of the Bosnian Muslims wrote a book in 1970 stating "There can be no peace or coexistence between Islamic faith and non-Islamic faith and institutions. The Islamic movement must and can take power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough, not only to destroy the non-Islamic power, but to build up a new Islamic one."


Indeed, he was a hothead when he was young and never completely disavowed those views. Unfortunately no Serb apologist has been able to square that with Izetbegovic's conduct in the 1990s.

I'd say the conduct of Serb paramilitaries was more inline with that of a radical movement.

Now tell us what you think he meant by "united"? :rolleyes:

A state where Muslims, Serbs and Croats lived in a single entity - as his actions proved. Tell me again who it was that was gung-ho for ethnic partition - was it the Serbs/Croats or the Muslims? Who was the first to cleanse large tracts of Bosnia?

I must say I get a real kick out of your "Bosnian Muslims are SS/Al Qaeda" take on things - as if the Bosnian Muslims spent the 1990s suicide bombing the Serbs and settling up Sharia courts. The Muslims of Western Europe are far greater a threat to the West than the Bosnians ever will be.

Even most Serbs today (while resenting NATO's intervention) seem to realize that ol' Slobo led them into disasterous wars based on load of paranoid nonsense.

[CHF]

A bit off topic, but what I admired about the Serbs was that during the NATO bombing campaign (unjust IMHO) in '99 they managed to take down a stealth bomber. Only case I know of it being that easy to drop a stealth bomber out of the sky.

What's most impressive is that they shot down the F-117 with AAA and a Vietnam-era A-3 missile.

[Gurdur]

Even most Serbs today (while resenting NATO's intervention) seem to realize that ol' Slobo led them into disasterous wars based on load of paranoid nonsense.

Actually, the Serbs elected Milosevic full well knowing what he promised. In his first election campaigns, he was very frank; he told the Serb electorate that they could either have glory or prosperity, they could either have guns or butter, but not both. They elected him (in his initial campaigns, he didn't have the machinery that he later had to stack the results) because they chose to have "glory". Serbia started 4 wars under Milosevic, chasing that elusive glory, and in a frenzy of paranoid, genocidal incompetence, managed to lose all 4, and in the process, introducing a huge degree of govt corruption hitherto unkown in Serbia.

It's not just Milosevic, but those who initially backed him, knowing full well what would result -- they just didn't plan on it turning out so badly for them.

Oh, and BTW, for all the glorification of the Serbs against those nasty Turks centuries ago, yada yada yada: in a crucial huge battle of the Ottoman Empire against the Western Crusaders, it was Serbian cavalry who swept in and saved the day -- saved the day for the Turkish Sultan.

[Gurdur]

All I know about Kosovo is that it is a location on the earth.

"Some damned silly thing in the Balkans"

--- historical quote, cited here as an abstruse joke; that damned silly thing did indeed happen and resulted in The Great War, WW1.

[WildCat]

What's most impressive is that they shot down the F-117 with AAA and a Vietnam-era A-3 missile.
Fill the sky with enough lead and you'll get lucky eventually.

[BeAChooser]

Speaking of collaborating with the Nazis, I recall seeing many Serb fighters in the 1990s wearing Chetnik caps and insignia. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Chetniks collaborate with the Nazis?

Yes, there were Serbs who collaborated with the Nazis. But as whole, that group fought the Nazis, tying down about 200,000 German troops, helping our airmen escape and generally being something more than a nuisance. Compare that to the behavior of the Croats and Muslims ... who were busy helping Nazis build and run extermination camps for Jews, gypsies ... and Serbs. :)

I don't suspect you'd care to paint the Serbs with the same SS/Nazi brush that you've used to accuse the 1990s Bosnians of being reponsible for genocide.

I wasn't recommending we become a close ally of Serbia either ... at least not as long as Milosevic and his crew were in power. :)


Quote:
Did I fail to mention that Izetbegovic, the leader of the Bosnian Muslims wrote a book in 1970 stating "There can be no peace or coexistence between Islamic faith and non-Islamic faith and institutions. The Islamic movement must and can take power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough, not only to destroy the non-Islamic power, but to build up a new Islamic one."

Indeed, he was a hothead when he was young and never completely disavowed those views.

Is that what he was doing in 1990 when he reissued the book containing that statement? Disavowing them? I suppose you think Obama knew nothing about Rev. Wrights views too. :)


Quote:
Now tell us what you think he meant by "united"?

A state where Muslims, Serbs and Croats lived in a single entity

And yet in 1990 when he chose to ignore the desires of his own populace (remember ... he lost at the ballet box to a candidate who wanted Bosnia to remain a part of Yugoslavia), he reissued a book with this statement: "There can be no peace or coexistence between Islamic faith and non-Islamic faith and institutions." That certainly doesn't carry a message of "unity". So call me a skeptic. :)

The Muslims of Western Europe are far greater a threat to the West than the Bosnians ever will be.

Probably true as long as NATO remains in their countries. :)

[FreeRomanian]

May the Holly Trinity: The Father, The Son, and The Holly Spirit bless you BeAChooser BeAChooser (colors of the flag of Romania ) for teling the truth!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MgCZan_ErQ





I totally agree with what you posted. 100%!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIeHB6ZHsjo












WWW.SAVEKOSOVO.ORG

[FreeRomanian]

A very COOL article!

Source : http://www.savekosovo.org/default.asp?p=10&sp=493


More exactly: http://www.savekosovo.org

Article:U.S. blunders by recognizing Kosovo independence


source: Detroit Free Press

BY JAMES A. PALMER
Monday, 31 March 2008

The United States' decision to recognize the independence of Kosovo is the most recent in a series of mistakes regarding the breakaway Serbian province. America has been making ill-fated decisions in the Balkans for at least a decade and a half. What separates this bungling of Kosovo from its prior decisions is that the recognition of Kosovo's independence will have deleterious effects on international law and cause consequences in the region and beyond.

The main problem is that Kosovo's independence undermines a system of international law that America helped create and from which it benefits greatly. The United Nations Charter enshrines the inviolability of state sovereignty. In recognizing Kosovo without a UN Security Council resolution, the United States and its European allies have weakened two of the fundamental principles of international law: that states are free to determine their internal composition and that their territorial integrity must be respected.

To make matters worse, the United States and the European Union have adopted a wildly expansive interpretation of Security Council Resolution 1244, which placed Kosovo under UN administration and provided for Kosovo's autonomy within Serbia. Under this interpretation, administrative authority is being transferred from the UN-sanctioned mission in Kosovo to an EU mission that has no legal mandate in the province and whose prospects for success rely on Serb participation, which is far from guaranteed. Already, ethnic divisions are hardening into a de facto partition of the territory between Albanian and Serb-controlled areas.

Another problem caused by Kosovo's independence is the precedent it sets for ethnic enclaves within other sovereign states. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's claim that "Kosovo cannot be seen as a precedent for any other situation in the world today" misses the point. It is doubtful that separatists from Xingjian to Catalonia will accept the niceties of Rice's argument that Kosovo is exceptional due to its political and legal history. It is much more likely that these separatists will view the conflict for the precedent that it is: the carving off of a sovereign state's territory in favor of an ethnic and religious minority threatening violence -- a model to be replicated elsewhere.

Russia has been particularly outspoken against Kosovo's independence because of its concern that its restive Caucasian provinces will follow the Kosovo precedent. The United States currently requires Russian cooperation on two issues of great strategic importance to America: counterproliferation efforts against Iran and the implementation of new missile defense systems in Central Europe. Irritating Russia and spending useful political capital on a tiny, economically stagnant, breakaway region will only make Russian cooperation less likely -- even on issues that concern its security.

Finally, Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence has only reinflamed the divisions and enmities of the 1990s -- not a time that any of us should want to revisit in the Balkans. The declaration of Kosovo's independence has emboldened Albanians in Montenegro, Macedonia and Bosnia in their calls for the creation of "greater Albania."

There is also the possibility that the largely Serbian north of Kosovo will decide to secede and ask its Serbian kinsmen to protect it. Will America defend Kosovo's sovereignty after having destroyed Serbia's?

The decision to recognize Kosovo's independence was foolish. In doing so, the United States and its European allies have undermined international law and opened the door to separatist movements worldwide to follow suit. Relations with Russia are being strained at a time when America needs Russia's cooperation. Most disturbing of all, the Balkan tinderbox could be reignited at any point. No amount of wishful thinking by our foreign policy leadership will fix the damage that's been done.


A very good article!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6kQWaKSD0c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6kQWaKSD0c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6kQWaKSD0c

[FreeRomanian]

Eventhough I do not understand the words, I really like how it sounds!
And the pictures are beautiful!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6kQWaKSD0c




KOSOVO was, is and always will be SERBIA!


Long live SERBIA-ROMANIA friendship!

[Architect]

Get out more, son, and try to get a broader spread of news sources.

[FreeRomanian]

"Source : http://www.savekosovo.org/default.asp?p=10&sp=493


More exactly: http://www.savekosovo.org

Article: U.S. blunders by recognizing Kosovo independence "

Architect, disturbed by the article man...?
But it is so real, you know....

[Architect]

Your posts show no meaningful attempt to present a balanced and cogent case, but rather exhibit the typical traits we associate with the belief systems of holocaust deniers and conpiracy theorists. You appear to have been highly selective in your sources, and look to sources which support a predetermined view.

This is a sceptical site. Do not expect to be able to post such material without question.

In the meantime get out more, son, and try to get a broader spread of news sources.

[FreeRomanian]

I don't understand what ballanced thing you are talkin about....


It is clear as day that ALBANIANS are the killers in Kosovo.
PROOF: from 1999 until 2008 all the non-albanians minorities,not only serbs, were forced to leave Kosovo!

And thIs whole so called full scale Serb-genocide againgst albainans was a set-up by KLA backed by USA and NATO!

What ballanced approach?

KOSOVO is SERBIA! perod!

[SDC]

I wonder where Magz stands on this topic. Problem is, nobody can be identified with the Jews, in this case. Makes it difficult.

[FreeRomanian]

SDC, you are totally off topic. Nobody is talking aboutthe jews here...
We are talking about the albanian terrorist government in Pristina recognised by the USA...
And about the false claims of NATO regarding Serbs!


A... by the way, the jews were also expelled from Kosovo by the albanians...

[Architect]

SDC

It appears that irony, as with balance and perspective, is lost on our Romanian friend.

[Architect]

Free Romanian

Mae Iolo Williams yn chwilio am fywyd gwyllt sy'n byw yng nghysgod dyn ac yn darganfod dyfrgwn yn chwarae ger y Cob ym Mhorthmadog.

Ymunwch ag Eleri Siôn a Gwyn Jones o Glwb Rygbi Cwmgors, a'r gwesteion arbennig fydd Roberts, asgellwr Gleision Caerdydd a Chymru; a Williams, asgellwr Y Gweilch

[Gurdur]

Freie Walesian! Lassen die Walesianen frei. Aus mit der Englischen Rumanier, Walesian für the Walesianen!

[Architect]

Tsk!

Chaidh corp a' phoidhleit a lorg am broinn a' phlèana a thàinig a-nuas ann am beanntan a' Mhonaidh Ruaidh.




In case anyone's asking, I'm doing this because it's making as much sense as Free Romanian's spam is. Now he knows how the rest of us feel.

[Gurdur]

Unabhängigkeit von alle der Sassanachs Rumanier sofort!

May the Blessings of the Holly Spirit* be upon you all! http://sp1.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/m3/2551533687
______

* FreeRomanian's misspelling, not mine

[dudalb]

Vlad The Impaler Rules!

[FreeRomanian]

Architect,

you speak for yourself,

not for the other almost 2500 people who read my thread ;)

[Architect]

Okay, let's take a vote. How many are swayed by FreeRomanian's posts and feel he's presenting a good case?

[Childlike Empress]

Swayed? I know the facts and Free Romanian presented a decent representation of them. BeAChooser, being a native english speaker, elaborated on everything you need to research the topic further and realize that you were in fact manipulated.

BTW, Germany played a very ugly role too, so i would prefer using "USA, Germany and NATO" instead of "USA & NATO", but those details would certainly mean nothing to you if you don't even see the validity of BeAChooser's posts.

[Elizabeth I]

How does FreeRomanian have a dog in this fight?

[Childlike Empress]

Tell us your thoughts, it might get interesting or at least funny to hear about a conspiracy theory created in a mind that knows nothing about either Kosovo or Romania.

I don't see a fight here, btw, i see facts getting presented and pseudo skeptics rejecting them.

[Darth Rotor]

How does FreeRomanian have a dog in this fight?
Possible answers:

1. He's Ion's idiot cousin.

2. He's a troll

3. He, like many people, did not see any sense in NATO establishing a Muslim client state in Europe, in Bosnia, and now Kosovo, and let's not forget the FYROM fun that still has some Greeks pissed off.

4. He wants to vent about America, since he has Romanian small penis envy, in a political sense.

5. BAC paid him to start a thread so he could post in ten thousand words what he could have said in a thousand.

BAC: you can make your point with fewer words, and tighter descriptions of what is in each link.

You'll reach a greater audience if you do so. Your current tactic guarantees a reduced number of people even reading your posts.

Remember: a lot of people surf the web at work, and need short and concise delivery of a point.

If you want to get your message out, improve the packaging.

No pathologists were killed in the crafting of this post.

DR

[FreeRomanian]

Darth Rotor, you said this about me: (or better said farked,Yes, I know what a stincking farck is. your posts for exemple!)
"Possible answers:
1. He's Ion's idiot cousin.

2. He's a troll

3. He, like many people, did not see any sense in NATO establishing a Muslim client state in Europe, in Bosnia, and now Kosovo, and let's not forget the FYROM fun that still has some Greeks pissed off.

4. He wants to vent about America, since he has Romanian small penis envy, in a political sense.

5. BAC paid him to start a thread so he could post in ten thousand words what he could have said in a thousand. "


But the reality is this:
Posibilities about you:

1)You are BILLY, the Kentucky retard Fried Chicken

2)You are so manipulated that you even refuse to see clear evidence, like the first movie in the thread...
NATO's Illegal War Against Serbia/ Lies About Kosovo War
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6cd_1194548338

A normal person, after seeses it, clearly understands that USA,and NATO manipulates the mass media in everything they said about KOSOVO and SERBIA!

3)Even worse than the first two, you are an albanian, OR AN ALBANIAN SIMPATISER who seekes to ridiculise all the others who point at albanian atrocities and genocide againgst all non-albanian population(a normal person checks a statistic from 1999 untill 2008 and notices how the other ethnic groups dissapeared in 10 years, how more than 150 churches were burned, etc, etc) and illegal independence of Kosovo

Kosovo is SERBIA dude!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jtToRGcpss

Face it!

Attack the argument, not the person making the argument.

[Architect]

That's right. We're all Albanian sympathisers. We're deliberately ignoring all their attrocities and genocide. The whole world is wrong. You're right.

Really, son; get out more.

[MarkCorrigan]

It's like watching someone have a breakdown.

Not that I think FR is, of course. It just brings up similar feelings as that. Mostly pity, with a not inconsiderable amount of horror.

[BeAChooser]

No pathologists were killed in the crafting of this post.

That you know of. :) Actually I don't think I ever claimed any pathologists were killed. But some were threatened. Rather pointedly, if what they publically said is true. And they did testify under oath. :)

[FreeRomanian]

MarkCorrigan, thank you mister Freud junior....

I should pay you in nature for your consult... ;)

[Architect]

It reminds me more of a teenager going through the "What do you know????" stage to their parents, to be honest.

[FreeRomanian]

Architect, all the evidence you need is in that film posted in the original thread.


You are totally off topic, and your personal remarks should be censored by forum's administrators.

You may discuss only IDEAS on the forum, not persons!


Administrators, please intervene!

[FreeRomanian]

That's right. We're all Albanian sympathisers. We're deliberately ignoring all their attrocities and genocide. The whole world is wrong. You're right.

Really, son; get out more.


And what whole world?
Only aprox. 28 of almost 180 counries of UN have recognised Kosovo's independence!


Arhitect, you are doing propaganda, and desinforming people!



The Majority of the World has not recognised Kosovo, and is on my side, not yours ;)

[Architect]

Ohh, it's SOOOOOO unfair! You're not my real parents anyway!!!! I wish I was dead!!!!


[/teenage tantrum]

[KoihimeNakamura]

Oooh. Argument to bold colors AND popularity.

[MarkCorrigan]

And what whole world?
Only aprox. 28 of almost 180 counries of UN have recognised Kosovo's independence!


Arhitect, you are doing propaganda, and desinforming people!



The Majority of the World has not recognised Kosovo, and is on my side, not yours ;)

The majority of the world is places like China or Russia.

Gee, real great friends you have there.

[Architect]

He'll storm off to his room in a huff now.

[FreeRomanian]

MarkCorrigan
"The majority of the world is places like China or Russia.
Gee, real great friends you have there."

I was refering to the number of countries who DID NOT recognise Kosovo's illegal independence, and they GRATELY outnumber those who did recognise it... ;)

Architect
I ignore such stupid and immature remarks. In the future I will not even bother to reply anything to them.Not even a message like this one.

[FreeRomanian]

KOSOVO is Serbia!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xPTvMx014g




.

[KoihimeNakamura]

got anything but youtube links?

[Architect]

He's in the huff. What a great way to prove you're not a teenager.....

Attack the argument and be civil. In other words, stop this behavior. If you want to discuss the point of the thread, please do so. Do not attack the arguer.

[dudalb]

He's in the huff. What a great way to prove you're not a teenager.....

..or prove you are a fanatic who cannot stand that people do not agree with him.
You can make a argument that indepedence for Kosovo might not be the solution but trying to whitewash the Serbs record in the Balkans since 1990 is not a brilliant way to go about it.
I love the way he thinks that shouting the exact same thing time and time again will convice people he is right.

[dudalb]

How does FreeRomanian have a dog in this fight?


That is an interesting question, since Romania tried to stay neutral in the break up of Yugoslavia...

[Architect]

Attack the argument and be civil. In other words, stop this behavior. If you want to discuss the point of the thread, please do so. Do not attack the arguer. Repeating here and removing the derail. Cease and desist.

[FreeRomanian]

I'm very glad that PEOPLE support JUSTICE!
They are againgst KOSOVO's independence almost everywhere in the world! Even in Countries who recognised this illegal state KOSOVO!

For exemple in Switzerland!!! Demonstration in Geneva!
Love and Solidarity with Serbia is felt in the entire demonstration!
They even sing in serb a traditional melody about Kosovo!
The warmth of hearts rises to the sky!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmO2ClwnRhg


Kosovo is Serbia! and will be Serbia again!

[Skeptic Ginger]

Thank you, Bill Clinton. (sarcasm)For what? Ending a conflict without getting 4,000 US soldiers killed doing it? I agree, with the correction I added of course.

[dudalb]

Kosove Will be Serbia without those nasty Kosovars and Albanians...wonder how that will happen.

[Skeptic Ginger]

FreeRomanian, I agree that the conflict you speak of was not as black and white as the US news media reports on such things. We in the US get very poor information from our news sources about what the real facts are in such conflicts including this one.

But the Serbs did go on an ethnic cleansing and killing spree regardless if the total killed was hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands. And there was a civil war regardless of who was right, who was wrong, what land belonged to whom, and whatever else the conflict was about. Just claiming Serb nationalism doesn't give anyone the right to settle differences with death and destruction.

In this news report from Democracy Now, Samantha Power v. Jeremy Scahill: A Debate on U.S. Actions in the Balkans, the Independence of Kosovo, the Iraq Sanctions and Humanitarian Intervention (http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/22/samantha_power_v_jeremy_scahill_a), I came away realizing the story was not as clean and neat as perhaps it was portrayed in our media. But just as perhaps there was no one side that bore all the blame, neither was there one side that didn't bear some.

I also have more trust that Clinton intervened after a more intellectual analysis of the situation as opposed to our current President who I trust only to support his own and his cronies' best interests.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Ooops, wrong thread.

[Childlike Empress]

Here is a german TV documentary that shows the propaganda unleashed on the german public to make them willing to support the war. I guess most of the lies were told to the american audience too. Worth a watch, skeptigirl. English subtitles.

It began with a lie (http://youtube.com/results?search_query=it+began+with+a+lie+angerer&search=Search)

edit: found it on google video in one part:

9022337190221762301

edit 2: oops, no subtitles there. Take the original youtube-link if you don't understand german.

[dudalb]

At times I think Childlike Empress longs for the Good Old Days of East Germany.

[FreeRomanian]

Childlike Empress, indeed a very very good movie!

I did not know about it. You were right, Germany is almost as deep in this sht as USA....

I don't understand, why Germany wanted so hard to break up Yugoslavia?

Hitler hated Yougoslavia, and wanted to break it apart, creating big Croatia.
Nowdays, Germany has the same policy, wanting to break it up.Germany sustained with weapons and training te croatian fascist movement Ustache, who commited genocide againgst serbs,in the 90's and created big Croatia, almost with the same borders as Hitler's created Croatia.
After that Germany has a very important role in the illegal bombings in 1999.
And is among first states to regognise Kosovo's illegal independence.

QUESTION: Why Germany hated so much Yugoslavia?

[Childlike Empress]

Well, in the early nineties, after Germany's reunification, we witnessed the forming of a new fraction of "left" activism, the (self-titled) "Antigermans". They formed because they saw the danger of Germany, the motor and paymaster of the EU, becoming a wanna-be imperium again. During the nineties it became obvious that this outlook was not realistic, that the capital was already so global and internationalised that you really can't speak of German "Reich" ambitions like in the nazi aera. Subsequently, the saner parts of the "Antigermans" left the movement and today it is a very loud but small minority of the german left, completely discredited by the inherent inconsistencies of their ideology and their over-the-top fanatic rethoric (for example, they show up in Dresden every year with "Bomber Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Travers_Harris) do it again" signs).

One of the former "Antigermans" is the author of the best book i've read on NATO's actions against Yugoslawia, Jürgen Elsässer (Book titled "Kriegslügen"). He states, and i agree, that the main problem with Yugoslawia was that it, contrary to all other countries of eastern europe, refused to "open its market" to "foreign investors", in other terms to sell the property of the citizens to international capitalism. Yugoslawia kept the "evil force of communism" alive in europe, and that was the last thing the elites wanted to see after the decline of the soviet union. They wanted to see the spectre dead and they were willing to take the measures.

Nowadays we see the industry and, most important, the media in most of eastern europe dominated by german money. So the strategy was successful, but the last word is not spoken. More and more people here realize that the stories about the need for us to lower our standards and break down our social security systems because of "Globalization", are fables, and that the economic entity called Germany is, as a whole and including its elite, an important motor and a big winner of said "Globalization". Based on lies and crimes.

[beachnut]

KOSOVO is Serbia!
.
was

[Normal Dude]

But the reality is this:
Posibilities about you:

1)You are BILLY, the Kentucky retard Fried Chicken


OK, I just about sprained my brain trying to figure this one out, can someone help me?

[Childlike Empress]

It was, not is.


Were you part of the crime of poisoning Yugoslawia with DU ammunition, beachnut? Are you aware of the breathtakingly disgusting longterm effects?

[Skeptic Ginger]

After listening to two people, one I consider to be an excellent investigative reporter, Jeremy Scahill, and one that seems trustworthy as she was considered by Obama to be worthy of being a political adviser and she is a Harvard professor, Samantha Power, each take different points of view of the conflict, I am certainly not going to take the word of anyone here as the true story. Not that I don't believe the people posting here are not sincere, but it's like trying to take the word of the Israelis or the Palestinians, both sides are so heavily biased by their own emotional involvement, they just simply refuse to see both sides of an issue.

I did see a bunch of starved prisoners in a Serbian prison camp (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/18/newsid_2499000/2499135.stm). Are you claiming that was fake? There was a survivor from a mass murder (http://www.zimbio.com/Bosnia+and+Herzegovina/articles/1020/GENOCIDE+SURVIVOR+FEJZIJA+HADZIC+TESTIFIED) and sniper alley in Sarajevo. (http://www.heyokamagazine.com/HEYOKA.3.PANO.MILOSEVIC.htm)

Samantha Power, Professor of Practice of Global Leadership and Public Policy, based at Harvard University’s Carr Center for Human Rights Policy. She wrote extensively about Bosnia and Kosovo in her book A Problem from Hell: America and the Age of Genocide, which won a 2003 Pulitzer Prize. Her new book is Chasing the Flame: Sergio Vieira de Mello and the Fight to Save the World.

Jeremy Scahill, independent journalist and Democracy Now! correspondent. He covered the NATO bombings of Kosovo and Yugoslavia for Democracy Now! in 1999. He is author of the book Blackwater: The Rise of the World’s Most Powerful Mercenary Army.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Jeremy, I’d like to ask you, you covered the original US-led NATO bombings in that region years ago, and it was raised then as sort of an example of humanitarian intervention that worked. And here we are a decade later, and we still have major, major divisions and problems in the region. Your perspective, as you look at this new upsurge of problems?

JEREMY SCAHILL: .... But it’s important to remember how we got to this point. I mean, Samantha was talking a little bit about the broader context here. The fact is that this was sort of Clinton’s Iraq, in a way. He bombed Yugoslavia for seventy-eight days with no United Nations mandate. I was at the UN the night that it began, and Kofi Annan was sort of beside himself that the action had been taken so swiftly, this military action, seventy-eight days of bombing of Yugoslavia under the auspices of NATO.

Wesley Clark was the commander of those operations, the Supreme Allied Commander. They bombed a Serbian television station, killing sixteen media workers; some of them were media workers, some of them were makeup artists, others were engineers. They directly targeted passenger trains and then fabricated a video afterwards to make it seem as though it was a split-second decision. They killed thousands of civilians.

And the fact was that the exaggerations of what was happening in Kosovo by William Cohen, the Defense Secretary at the time, who talked about a million missing people—then it was scaled back to 100,000, then 50,000, then 10,000, and now the official number is that there were 2,700 people that were killed, and there’s been no determination of their ethnicity. Now, I can tell you from being on the ground in Kosovo that some of the worst violence that occurred, slaughtering of Albanians, happened after the NATO bombing began. And the fact was that the US sabotaged the work of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe in the weeks leading up to the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia.

And I think that what we have to understand here is that this is where the sort of liberals, like Hillary Clinton, come together with the neocons, because there are a lot of similarities between what happened in Yugoslavia and what happened in Iraq, with the lead-up to the war, the disregard for international law or international consensus, and then the outright killing of civilians under the auspices of a humanitarian intervention.

AMY GOODMAN: Samantha Power, your response? And you’re saying Barack Obama isn’t that different on this issue than Hillary Clinton in his attitude to what has happened.

SAMANTHA POWER:.... I do have a different perspective from Jeremy from that period, as one who spent time in Kosovo in advance of the NATO bombing and wondered what on earth was going to be the fate of those people if the Serbian regime remained in power, and disagree with some of the specific facts of what he said about what actually happened during the bombing. ...

JEREMY SCAHILL: What the United States did, though, right after NATO forces entered Yugoslavia is they brought in some high-profile thugs and criminals, people like Agim Ceku, who became the commander, the military commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army. This was a man who was a war criminal from the war in Bosnia when he served in the Croatian military. He was trained by a US mercenary company called Military Professional Resources Incorporated. He was the guy that the United States was basically bolstering to become the new head of the Kosovo army, and it’s quite interesting that that man is a war criminal.

And the fact is that Camp Bondsteel is of tremendous, significant importance, significance, to the United States for geopolitical reasons, and I think that’s one of the reasons why Bush moved so swiftly to support the independence of Kosovo, is that the government in Pristina is very easy to manipulate. The government in Belgrade, that’s a tougher story. Vojislav Kostunica, who’s one of the main political figures, the prime minister of the country, is a fairly rightwing isolationist and I don’t think would be too happy about a US military base operating on Serbian soil. ...

...And I think that even if we look at it from the most mainstream political perspective, it was unwise for the US to come in so swiftly without giving the Serbian government an opportunity to deal with the safety of the Serbs in Mitrovica and in some of those border areas. And I think, internally in Serbia now, one of the reasons we’re seeing so much protest is that the Milosevic government had a despicable policy toward refugees from all of the various former Yugoslav republics who found themselves in Serbia. And you have literally hundreds of thousands of Serbs who are sort of left without a place to go and don’t have full rights in Serbia. I just think it was very poor diplomacy on the part of the Bush administration to do this so swiftly, and I think it raises serious questions about what the US agenda there is. So we have a very serious international crisis there right now....

SAMANTHA POWER: So Kofi Annan, who you invoked earlier, gave a very good speech in the middle of the NATO war, which was: I don’t want to live in a world where countries like the United States can just trample over the UN Security Council, as you alluded to earlier in terms of both Kosovo and Iraq. I also don’t want to live in a world where a government can commit massacres with impunity. Kofi Annan was much more torn— ...

...If I may—Kofi Annan was hugely torn about the Kosovo intervention. He didn’t want to see the UN Security Council trampled, you’re right. There wasn’t adequate international legal authorization for that, by any means. But he also didn’t want to live in a situation where the Serbs could massacre the ethnic Albanians at will.

Sergio Vieria de Mello, who at some point we will maybe talk about, was also somebody totally loyal to the UN Charter, totally loyal to the idea of civilian protection. He also supported the war in Kosovo. So, yes, in fact, I did support the Rambouillet negotiations. I don’t see it at all the way that you did. And, again, I haven’t heard a scenario by which ethnic Albanians would actually have been free of massacres and free of fear in the scenario which would have left the province alone in a way that you suggest.


These are very complex issues that don't have a clear good vs evil.

[BeAChooser]

But the Serbs did go on an ethnic cleansing and killing spree regardless if the total killed was hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands.

So did Saddam? But I notice you are completely on the other side in that case. ;)

And there was a civil war regardless of who was right

It wasn't a "civil war" prior to our involvement. It was a case of mostly illegal invaders ... Albanians and other KLA supporting terrorists ... trying to take the country away from Serbs and Serbia.

In this news report from Democracy Now

Well that's bound to be a good, unbiased source. :rolleyes:

I also have more trust that Clinton intervened after a more intellectual analysis of the situation as opposed to our current President who I trust only to support his own and his cronies' best interests.

ROTFLOL!

[BeAChooser]

Were you part of the crime of poisoning Yugoslawia with DU ammunition, beachnut? Are you aware of the breathtakingly disgusting longterm effects?

Although I wouldn't want to eat DU on a daily basis, I'm afraid I'm not one who puts much stock in all the nightmarish allegations surrounding DU. Most of the folks pushing those notions are completely dishonest. "Dr" Rokke would be an example. So let's not get sidetracked into a discussion of DU's good or evil (because you aren't likely to change my opinion in that regard nor am I likely to change yours, I suspect) and just keep to the central issue here. :)

[KoihimeNakamura]

Note:

DU isn't severely poisionous (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/)

Thank you.

[Skeptic Ginger]

So did Saddam? But I notice you are completely on the other side in that case. ;)

It wasn't a "civil war" prior to our involvement. It was a case of mostly illegal invaders ... Albanians and other KLA supporting terrorists ... trying to take the country away from Serbs and Serbia.

Well that's bound to be a good, unbiased source. :rolleyes:

ROTFLOL!First off, the time to attack Saddam for his atrocities would have been when the Kurds rose up at the encouragement of Bush Sr and we didn't come to their aide, not 10 years later. Second, another time to have condemned Saddam would have been about the time Rumsfeld was shaking hands with him in 1983 (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/).

You are fighting straw men here to claim the specific reasons I might support selective intervening and trying to lump them all together.

We probably should have intervened in Rwanda. Trying to intervene in Somalia had a bad outcome. I don't know what we should do in Darfur. I do not claim to know when we should and shouldn't intervene in the dozens of terrible human rights atrocities around the world.

I do know that if one does intervene, oil should not be the driving force. And that was the reason Bush invaded Iraq. The evidence is abundantly clear. No WMDs. Worse human rights atrocities elsewhere in the world. Not involved in 9/11. If you think Bush invaded for anything but oil you are ignoring the facts.

I don't know what the facts were in Kosovo. That is what I posted. But there was ethnic cleansing on the news every night. It seemed like people were in urgent danger. I assume Clinton sized things up appropriately because he got things under control and we didn't lose 4,000 soldiers doing it. Bush dropped the ball there as well and things have deteriorated since Bush took office from the looks of things.

[BeAChooser]

First off, the time to attack Saddam for his atrocities would have been when the Kurds rose up at the encouragement of Bush Sr and we didn't come to their aide

We had no authorization to do that. You folks demand we have authorization. Right? :)

, not 10 years later.

Why should it matter? A crime against humanity is a crime against humanity no matter when it occurs. Are you suggesting we should have condemned more Iraqis to the genocidal practices of Saddam just because Bush Sr didn't take him out ten years earliers. Sort of a "sins of the father" scenario?

The evidence is abundantly clear. No WMDs.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1207486215610&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull "Apr 7, 2008 21:57 'Report on Sept. 6 strike to show Saddam transferred WMDs to Syria' By JPOST.COM STAFF An upcoming joint US-Israel report on the September 6 IAF strike on a Syrian facility will claim that former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein transferred weapons of mass destruction to the country, Channel 2 stated Monday."

Worse human rights atrocities elsewhere in the world. Not involved in 9/11. If you think Bush invaded for anything but oil you are ignoring the facts.

ROTFLOL!

But there was ethnic cleansing on the news every night.

If you read my earlier posts then you know that most of that was totally bogus.

It seemed like people were in urgent danger.

So it was ok for Clinton to drum up support for an invasion based on false pretenses but not Bush? :)

I assume Clinton sized things up appropriately because he got things under control and we didn't lose 4,000 soldiers doing it.

Nah ... he just committed war crimes to do it ... deliberately targeting civilians and making an organization of terrorists (the State Department of the time recognized them as such) our best buddies.

Bush dropped the ball there as well and things have deteriorated since Bush took office from the looks of things.

Actually, the truth is you don't have a crystal ball where Iraq is concerned. You can't tell us with any confidence what the world (or Iraq) would be like today had we not invaded. A good case can be made that things might actually be much worse.

[FreeRomanian]

Childlike Empress, that explains why Germany hated so much Yougoslavia.

I must add, now I know why the west "loves" Romania so much.That's because we have sold to them everything: The Energy, the Natural Resources the entire Economy ,and now even land, huge key portions are owned by foreigners...

In other words, Romania is not a SOVEREIGN state anymore, because it totally depends of foreign capital, so logically, the foreigners dictate the policy...

Romania is sovereign only on paper.

YOUGOSLAVIA was trully sovereign, and that's why NATO led by USA and GERMANY distroyed it, and now enslaved the breaked parts: Croatia,Serbia,Slovenia, etc...

Childlike Empress, you were right!

[FreeRomanian]

And now, talking about who were the real killers in Kosovo,
of course, ALBANIAN KLA(UCK),

look what they used in order to make money, except drugs!Organs trafic! Prtelevated from captured serbs, who obviously died in the process.

I think, 99%, that the albanians didn't even use anestetic while taking SERBS organs away... Horror scene.... And it happened in our days...

Carla Del Ponte, who stepped down in January as chief prosecutor at the Hague tribunal for crimes committed in the Balkan wars of the 1990s, SAID:
Serb prisoners 'were stripped of their organs in Kosovo war'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/11/wserb111.xml


Of course NATO supported them, because are criminalls and murderors, just like the alliance is.
Who is alike, gets along very well...

So, as you can see...


NATO Everywhere, justice Nowhere !



www.savekosovo.org



.

[FreeRomanian]

NATO has "birthed" a MONSTER -- a real Grendel.

Drug running, abducting/raping/beating Europe's girls into prostitution, and now this!

And this isn't just black-marketing body parts: this is Auschwitz-Birkenau -- and worse.

But why was this only revealed now -- AFTER NATO "granted independence" to Kosovo? ??

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/11/wserb111.xml

[Architect]

For what it's worth, FreeRomanian is just parrotting the material found here:

http://www.savekosovo.org/default.asp

I am minded of CT'ers and Alex Jones.

[FreeRomanian]

Architect, you obviously do not know what you are talking about...

This is BREAKING news, and has not yet been posted on www.savekosovo.org

Any reader can verify that, and will understand that your attempts to discreditate me are only pathetic lies...

So far, I have read this Shocking :jaw-dropp news only on

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/11/wserb111.xml

So people, let's make a poll...

Who do you believe?

Carla Del Ponte, the former chief prosecutor at the Hague tribunal for crimes committed in the Balkan wars of the 1990s,

or


Architect

?


I'm looking forward to receiving your opinnion....

[Gurdur]

I think the poll should be in Rumanian. For your sake. With great big fonts in pretty colours.

[Complexity]

Architect, all the evidence you need is in that film posted in the original thread.


You are totally off topic, and your personal remarks should be censored by forum's administrators.

You may discuss only IDEAS on the forum, not persons!


Administrators, please intervene!


FreeRomanian - Your ideas are juvenile, poorly wrought, poorly expressed, and just plain wrong. Your ideas are unworthy of being held by a sane adult human. Your ideas kind of suck.

Furthermore, I don't think you have any sense of humor.

I'm delighted that Kosovo got away from Serbia. I wish Kosovo well.

[MarkCorrigan]

Architect, you obviously do not know what you are talking about...

This is BREAKING news, and has not yet been posted on www.savekosovo.org

Any reader can verify that, and will understand that your attempts to discreditate me are only pathetic lies...

So far, I have read this Shocking :jaw-dropp news only on

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/11/wserb111.xml

So people, let's make a poll...

Who do you believe?

Carla Del Ponte, the former chief prosecutor at the Hague tribunal for crimes committed in the Balkan wars of the 1990s,

or


Architect

?


I'm looking forward to receiving your opinnion....
The Telegraph?

Seriously?

The Telegraph?

Still, at least it isn't the Mail.....

[Finnegan]

"
Who do you believe?

Carla Del Ponte, the former chief prosecutor at the Hague tribunal for crimes committed in the Balkan wars of the 1990s,

or


Architect

?"

Two can play at this rather inconsequential game:

Srebrenica,

Who do you believe?

The United Nations
International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia
NATO
The Red Cross
Srebrenica Widows

or

FreeRomanian (oh, and the American and Western analists (sic))

[Architect]

Toughie. I'll go with anyone except FreeRomanian and the Serb leadership.

[FreeRomanian]

Srebrenica and Kosovo are distinct facts...

This thread is about Kosovo, and we are exposing evidences about KOSOVO.

So this link to Srebrenica only tried to distract attention from the real thing,

and that is that Albanians are the real killers in Kosovo.


Eventhough GERMANY, for exemple, did what it deed in Auchwitz, it doesn't mean that in every conflict Germany was or will ever be implicated, the germans are war criminals!

So just because you claim serbs murdered people at Srebrenica, it doesn't mean that they also did it in Kosovo!

And all evidences show that Serrbs DID NOT commit genocide againgst Albanians in KOSOVO!

And again,all evidences show that Albanians COMMITED geniocide againgst ALL other ethnic minorities in Kosovo!

[Childlike Empress]

Breaking News: Russia ups pressure on ex-war crimes prosecutor Del Ponte (http://en.rian.ru/world/20080414/105052868.html)

STRASBOURG, April 14 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's delegation to PACE has gathered sufficient signatures to force an investigation into controversial claims made by former Hague Tribunal prosecutor Carla Del Ponte in her book.

On Tuesday, Russia's Foreign Ministry asked the office of the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia to provide an explanation and details of crimes described in a book by Del Ponte, who stepped down as the UN's chief war crimes prosecutor in January. [...]

Last Monday, the ministry denounced a ruling by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia last week which saw a former Kosovo prime minister acquitted for crimes committed during the conflict between Kosovo and Serbia in 1998-1999.

Ramush Haradinaj, 39, a former KLA guerilla leader, accused of organizing the rape, murder and intimidation of thousands of Serbs and Roma was found 'not guilty' on April 3. [...]

According to claims made in Del Ponte's book, Haradinaj was involved in the sale of organs taken from prisoners executed in Kosovo.

[FreeRomanian]

Thank God the USA or German secret services, or even Albanian Mafia who is very strong in Europe, didn't kill Carla del Ponte because she knew too much!

They also know about that, but obviously want to make albanians look good, and to make serbs look like evil psichopath war criminals....

I am so happy Carla del Ponte had the courrage to speak the TRUTH!
Eventhough she brought Milosovic to Hague, she washed her sins by publishing this book!

I am so glad that she is still alive and could publish the book!
I am VERY HAPPY that people can now see beyond USA and NATO lies!

May The Holly Trinity bless Carla del Ponte!

In the Name Of The Father!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P5FZkqWBuU

And The Son!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P5FZkqWBuU

And The Holly Spirit!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P5FZkqWBuU

AMIN!

[Gurdur]

... German secret services...didn't kill Carla del Ponte ...
Neither did Prince Phillip, who also didn't order Diana's death. This the fortnight for non-news news? Dog didn't bite man, man didn't bite dog kind of thing?

...serbs look like evil psichopath war criminals....
We know, and they probably can't spell either.

she washed her sins
Can we have photos? :)

... Holly ...

Deck the halls with boughs of holly,
Tra la la la la, tra la la la

[B]In the Name Of The Father!
....
And The Son!
.....
And The Holly Spirit!
...AMIN!

And to think that that was seriously meant. Better than spending Saturday afternoon in Bedlam for entertainment.

[Elizabeth I]

I'm still confused about why FreeRomanian started this thread.

Is Romania part of the former Yugoslavia? Did it want to be?

[FreeRomanian]

Elizabeth I, I started this Thread in the name of Justice!

You can't just rip a country apart because you are USA, or Germany or NATO as a whol(r)e...

Kosovo is part of the SERBIAN state!

And what would happed if in every country the regions where the minorities are majority, would unilaterally declare independence?

A world disaster!


Gurdur, you should stop ridiculising Christianity.
Of course, you are free to do watherver you want, but remember that you also have a soul, and you will have to answer God for everything you did...

May The Holly Trinity bless Carla del Ponte!

In the Name Of The Father!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P5FZkqWBuU

And The Son!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P5FZkqWBuU

And The Holly Spirit!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P5FZkqWBuU

AMIN!

[Normal Dude]

I have to admit this thread has vastly entertained me.

[Gurdur]

Elizabeth I, I started this Thread in the name of Justice!
Did you ask Justice first? Tsk tsk tsk, you didn't, did you?

You can't just rip a country apart because you are USA, or Germany or NATO as a whol(r)e...
Yes, you can.
Kosovo is part of the SERBIAN state!
Not any more, not any more! :D
And what would happed if in every country the regions where the minorities are majority, would unilaterally declare independence?
Goodness, freedom!
A world disaster!
Bollocks.

Gurdur, you should stop ridiculising Christianity.
Don't be so patently ridiculous.
Of course, you are free to do watherver you want,
Because the Serbs were incompetent at stopping me. :p


... Holly ...
Dunno why you're so obsessed with a plant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holly).

In the Name Of The Father!
.....
And The Son!
....
And The Holly Spirit!
.....
More like in the name of ineptitude, incompetence and incapacity, whether Rumania or Serbia.

AMIN!
IDI! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin)

What a fitting symbol for the Serbian leadership. :)

__________

I have to admit this thread has vastly entertained me.

You don't say? :)

[Architect]

This is as humorous as some of the stuff on the CT thread.

I think that the NWO did it!

[FreeRomanian]

The film:


Exposed: how Kosovo Serbs were butchered for organs by Albanians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2QMm0VpJyQ

[Architect]

FreeRomanian,

I fear that no-one is listening to your message in view of the means of presentation, and recommend you reconsider how you are approaching this forum.

You may also find the CT forum more appropriate.

[Finnegan]

"YOUGOSLAVIA was trully sovereign, and that's why NATO led by USA and GERMANY distroyed it, and now enslaved the breaked parts: Croatia,Serbia,Slovenia, etc..."

In that case the nation of Serbia and Montenegro must have seriously disappointed you in 2003. Do you resent it's existence?

"And what would happed if in every country the regions where the minorities are majority, would unilaterally declare independence?"

A 92% majority I might add.

I suppose that you vociferously reject the establishment of a Palestinian nation, then? And obviously you'd agree that Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom, like it or not. The idea of making Kurdistan an independent state would also be anathema to you.

"Eventhough she brought Milosovic to Hague"

Del Ponte has never recanted her belief that Milosovic was guilty. Are you going to select bits of her account that you actually agree with?

"Exposed: how Kosovo Serbs were butchered for organs by Albanians"

Right.

1. Carla Del Ponte is publishing a book.

2. Her book alleges that members of the Kosovo Liberation Army harvested the organs of Serbian captives.

3. We don't know whether this is true or false, and without an investigation we won't. Vague internet speculation does not establish coherent cases.

4. An investigation is needed. If you wanted to play a proactive part in it then you could perhaps set up a petition.

Happy?

[Architect]

And obviously you'd agree that Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom, like it or not.


Bad example, since a majority in NI still support the Union, however this is otherwise an excellent point.

FreeRomanian, do you disagree with the concept of self-determination?

[bobrayner]

FreeRomanian, do you disagree with the concept of self-determination?

Apparently not, since a huge majority of people in Kosovo want self-determination, but:

Kosovo is part of the SERBIAN state!

And what would happed if in every country the regions where the minorities are majority, would unilaterally declare independence?

A world disaster!

If a thousand years' worth of historical states & historical borders are more important than what people currently want, surely most of the Balkans should be run from Istanbul? ;)

[FreeRomanian]

Source:
http://www.cnn.com

Article's link:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/11/kosovo.organs.ap/


Content:

Serbs slains for their organs, says ex-U.N. lawyer

# Story Highlights
# Human rights group urges Kosovo authorities to act over ex-U.N. prosecutor's claims
# Carla del Ponte says in book that Albanian guerrillas killed Serbs and sold organs
# The atrocities allegedly happened at the end of the war in Kosovo in 1999
# Kosovo's justice minister dismisses the allegations as "fabrications"5
(I'm not surprised... a murderor almost always pleads innocent...
Would you expect to say that he is guitly? Come on, he is the prime minister... He would never recognise that he did it even if alll the evidences in the World are shown to him, because the albanian leadership of Kosovo would be exposed as what it is, a bunch of mafiots and murderors.)

Now back to the article,

PRISTINA, Kosovo (AP) -- A human rights group has urged Kosovo authorities to investigate claims by a former U.N. war crimes prosecutor that ethnic Albanian guerrillas killed dozens of Serbs and sold their organs at the end of the war in Kosovo.
art.ponte.gi.jpg

Edited for Rule 4


KOSOVO is SERBIA!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6kQWaKSD0c



.

[FreeRomanian]

A very COOL and real GERMAN song about KOSOVO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y6QHR0Iqis&feature=related





.

[Gurdur]

KOSOVO is SERBIA!

Not any more! :D :D :D

[Normal Dude]

I don't know what we're yelling about!

[FreeRomanian]

Gurdur, just for a while...,

but KOSOVO will be SERBIA again!


You will see that in your lifetime! ;)




.

[Gurdur]

KOSOVO will be SERBIA again!

No, it won't! :D :D :D

You will see that in your lifetime!

No, I won't! And I will be living a very long lifetime to come! :) :) :)

_________________

I don't know what we're yelling about!

Who knows? Maybe FreeRomanian makes up in loudness what he lacks in persuasiveness.

;)

[MarkCorrigan]

Gurdur, just for a while...,

but KOSOVO will be SERBIA again!


You will see that in your lifetime! ;)




.

Oh good. Can we have America and Canada back then?

I mean, they requested to be independent, but hell, we can't allow self determination, can we?

Hell, Britain will own most of the world again. I've never been very imperialistic, but thanks to you FR, you've shown me that independent states being freed from a subjugating state which was created based upon imperialistic lines rather than representation and social contract theories are EVIL!!!!1111!1

[Finnegan]

Freeromanian,

We've covered this here:

1. Carla Del Ponte is publishing a book.
2. Her book alleges that members of the Kosovo Liberation Army harvested the organs of Serbian captives.
3. We don't know whether this is true or false, and without an investigation we won't. Vague internet speculation does not establish coherent cases.
4. An investigation is needed. If you wanted to play a proactive part in it then you could perhaps set up a petition.

Now, why don't you calm down and give us your views on self determination?

Bad example, since a majority in NI still support the Union, however this is otherwise an excellent point.

My apologies, I should have thought before I posted.

[Lensman]

I'm half Serb, my father came over here to the UK after WWII & married a Brit. I have no trouble believing that the Serbs behaved atrociously towards Kosovans, Croats & people of other ethnicity in the Balkans. I also have no trouble believing the converse, that Croats & Kosovans behaved atrociously towards the Serbs.

[KoihimeNakamura]

It is likely that both sides acted atrociously, yes. I wish he'd make a point -youtube -shouting though.

[Architect]

You know, I thought that just cut and pasting material was a breach of forum rules.

[dudalb]

I love Free Romanian's screaming about how we should not poke fun at Christianity.
Boy,is he on the wrong webpage ...........

[Gurdur]

... Boy, is he on the wrong webpage ...........

Indeedy. Isn't it fun? :)

If I wanted to, I could take the serious theist side and tell him off for his blaspheming; not only does he constantly take the name of the Holly [sic] Spirit in vain, but he also apparently continually evokes the Trinity in incantations about the Serbs, which is blasphemous in that he is pretending God is an extremist nationalist Serb.

OTOH, now that he's brought it up, I think I'll just go for the ridicule of the whole baggage as it is anyway, it's easier and faster.

[FreeRomanian]

dudalb
I love Free Romanian's screaming about how we should not poke fun at Christianity.
Boy,is he on the wrong webpage ...........

So, you say this is a page where people laugh about Christianity, and a page where we should not say(not scream, just say.I din't scream ;) ) that we are againgst blasfemies?

Boy, you are so wrong...


Gurdur


As a Christian I have the right to ask the Holly Trinity to bless whoever I feel love and sympaty for. It is nothing wrong with that.

And by the way, Carla del Ponte is not SERB.

And I feel love for all the people who say the truth regardless of the intimidations and personal bad consequences, even death...

So I ask the One and Only God, the Holly Trinity:
The Father, The Son and the Holly Spirit
to bless and protect Carla del Ponte!
She is a HERO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P5FZkqWBuU


.

[Gurdur]

You just keep on asking that Holly Trinity, FreeRomanian, maybe you'll get some holly berries out of it.

[Finnegan]

Freeromanian,

As a citizen Gurder has the right to deride your faith.

Now do you have anything constructive to say regarding Kosovo? Note that dreadful songs and frenzied praises for Carla Del Ponte don't count.

[MarkCorrigan]

Oh good. Can we have America and Canada back then?

I mean, they requested to be independent, but hell, we can't allow self determination, can we?

Hell, Britain will own most of the world again. I've never been very imperialistic, but thanks to you FR, you've shown me that independent states being freed from a subjugating state which was created based upon imperialistic lines rather than representation and social contract theories are EVIL!!!!1111!1

I notice you didn't answer me FreeRomanian.

Can we (Britain, that is) have our empire back then?

[FreeRomanian]

MarkCorrigan

Serbian National state , and an Empire, for exemple the British Empire are two very different things my friend...


Kosovo was the cradle of Serbian state for hundreads of years until modern times.

Albanians became majoritary there only after world war 2, by genocide, discrimination of serbs, mass migration from albania and making many children.


And just one more thing, this HUNDREADS of middle age centuriyes old Orthodox Churches couldn't have been built by abanian, because they are muslims... ;) , so they are not albanian! And neither the land they are built on! THAT'S WHY: Kosovo is Serbia!

Serbian Orthodox Monasteries in Kosovo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIeHB6ZHsjo


What animal retarded muslim Albanians did to them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTRtrBptJ98




Finnegan
you said
"As a citizen Gurder has the right to deride your faith."

Ofcourse e has the right to do whatever he wants!
He has the right to burn crosses or urinate in churches to prove that he doens't give a dam about Christianity. I meean it! He has that right!
He can do and say whatever he wants.
God gave him,and all of us absolut freedom.

But after he dies, he will answer to the Holly Trinity for everything he did, and how he used his freedom ;)

The same applies to me, you, and all oF us.

We are free to do whatever we want, but if we use our freedom to suicide ourselves spiritually then we self condemn ourselves. Not God sends us to Hell, because He loves us, but we autoexilate ourselves to Hell, because we refuse God, and we turn our backs on Him!

HELL = total lack of GOD's love

I'm not stopping Gurdur from anything. He is free!

[Skeptic Ginger]

Just curious how loud one might be able to shout in this forum.

Apparently it is bolded 7. I suggest that is a tad more than we need.

[Finnegan]

Freeromanian,

I have every right to report you because by your own rules you are:

"totally off topic."

If you having nothing to contribute to the Kosovo debate besides BOLD SLOGANS and casual racism then you should take your theological speculations to the Religion and Philosophy.

[Gurdur]

HELL = total lack of GOD's love


HELL = Being trapped in Serbia

I'm not stopping Gurdur from anything. He is free!

Because he is not in Serbia. :D

[Gurdur]

.... Can we (Britain, that is) have our empire back then?

Be careful what you ask for. Were the Empire (rah! rah!) reinstated tomorrow, then instead of the usual few Australians covering Earl's Court and Grosvenor Square in technicolour pizza after a night's drinking, you would have queues of millions of Americans camped out wanting access to NHS treatment.

If you ask, I'm Australian.

[Architect]

I find it hard to believe that Tito - Mr. Peace and Love himself - just let all those nasty Albanians chuck out the Serbs in the post war period. Or does FreeRomanian mean that it was the post-Tito, i.e. predominantly Serbian, regimes that allowed it to happen? I mean, it seems to be an awfully selective view of Balkan history we're hearing here. And why is someone from Romania getting so upset about this anyway??!?! DOes it detract them from listening to O-Zone records or somesuch?

You know, I remember the Greek students at uni. back in the early 1990s (postgrad, before someone asks) getting in a right tizzy about Macedonia calling itself that, for absolutely no sensible reason whatsoever.

[sackett]

...absolutely no sensible reason whatsoever.

Alas, you've just defined the Balkans

[Childlike Empress]

I distance myself from FreeRomanians formal behaviour, his "cool" german language music video (juvenile, nationalistic crap as far as i'm concerned) and his orthodox (sorry Elisabeth I) religious favour.

But i still agree with him on the facts about the Kosovo war.

[Childlike Empress]

... Holly ...

Dunno why you're so obsessed with a plant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holly).


Perhaps he means Holly Cartner, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch?

She had this to say in a recent HRW press release entitled Kosovo: Criminal Justice System Fails Victims (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/03/28/serbia18363.htm):

... unless EU states and the US are prepared to relocate and receive witnesses at risk, it will be next to impossible to prosecute individuals responsible for some of the most serious crimes.


The article announces the new HRW Report “Kosovo Criminal Justice Scorecard” (http://hrw.org/reports/2008/kosovo0308/), a follow-up report (to one from 2004) which concludes ...

... that there has been little progress on some of the key deficiencies in the system, including: inadequate police support for investigative prosecutors, poor coordination between the national and international elements of the system (in which international judges, prosecutors and police officers are supposed to work alongside their national counterparts), and an electronic case-management system that is still not operational, despite the millions of euros invested in it by various bilateral donors.

Witness protection is a particular problem, especially in cases involving organized crime, war crimes, and attacks on minorities. Widespread witness intimidation and harassment mean that many witnesses are unwilling to come forward. Kosovo lacks a witness protection law, and judges and prosecutors often fail to use those measures that are available. For witnesses in the most sensitive cases, relocation outside Kosovo is the only effective means of protection. Despite this, European states and the United States are reluctant to receive, or otherwise support, witnesses who need to be relocated from Kosovo.

“The EU’s decision to focus its efforts on the justice system is the right one,” said Cartner. “But unless EU states and the US are prepared to relocate and receive witnesses at risk, it will be next to impossible to prosecute individuals responsible for some of the most serious crimes.”


Remember that the minorities in Kosovo are not the Albanians. According to (http://www.ks-gov.net/esk/esk/pdf/english/general/kosovo_figures_05.pdf) the Statistical Office of Kosovo, in 2005 around 88% of the population of Kosovo were Albanians, 7% were Serbs, 5% other minorities (Bosnian, Turkish,...).

At 1.3% per year, ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have the fastest rate of growth in population in Europe.[76] Over an 82-year period (1921-2003) the population grew to 460% of its original size. If growth continues at such a pace, the population will reach 4.5 million by 2050.[77]

By contrast, from 1948 to 1991, the Serb population of Kosovo increased by but twelve percent (one third the growth of the population in the rest of Serbia). The population of Albanians in Kosovo increased by three hundred percent in the same period -- a rate of growth twenty-five times that of the Serbs in Kosovo.


Carla Del Ponte, when asked why she didn't do anything about the crimes in her role as prosecutor but instead write about them in a book, answers according to a RIA Novosti (http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080409/104220243.html) analysis:

... that she could do nothing because it was next to impossible to collect evidence in Kosovo, which was swarming with criminals. Witnesses were intimidated, and even judges in The Hague were afraid of the Kosovo Albanians. She writes in her book that some of the tribunal's judges were afraid that Albanians would come deal with them.


tbc

[MarkCorrigan]

[
And just one more thing, [B]this HUNDREADS of middle age centuriyes old Orthodox Churches couldn't have been built by abanian, because they are muslims... ;) , so they are not albanian!

No, they're Byzantine. The same Byzantines who owned Serbia for a very, very long time prior to it becoming a separate nation.

In fact, I don't think you came a seperate nation until very, very recently. Since Byzantium was centred in Constantinople, does that mean you should be given back to Turkey?

If you want to go further back, then you belong to Italy.

No matter how far back you go, Serbia is not Serbia.

[LukeB]

No, they're Byzantine. The same Byzantines who owned Serbia for a very, very long time prior to it becoming a separate nation.

In fact, I don't think you came a seperate nation until very, very recently.

He's Romanian Mark. Albeit a Romanian with a Serbian obsession.
Is it wrong that when I type Romanian I think Romulan?
:)

[FreeRomanian]

MarkCorrigan, you say:
"No, they're Byzantine. The same Byzantines who owned Serbia for a very, very long time prior to it becoming a separate nation."

You should document yourself better before posting such FALSE afirmations.

Those centuryes-old monasteries are SERBIAN, not Byzantine.

Serbian(not Byzantine ;) ) Orthodox Monasteries in Kosovo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIeHB6ZHsjo


So I just give you an exemple, DECANI Monastery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visoki_Decani_Monastery

Visoki Dečani (Serbian: Манастир Високи Дечани or Manastir Visoki Dečani) is a major Serb Orthodox Christian monastery located in the disputed Serbian province of Kosovo[1], 12 km south of the town of Peć. Its cathedral is the biggest medieval church in the Balkans.

The monastery was established in a chestnut grove by King Stefan Dečanski in 1327.

King Stefan Dečanski (is not byzantine ;) )
reigned as king of Serbia from 1321 to September 8, 1331. He took his name from the great monastery he built at Dečani.


In 2004, UNESCO listed the monastery on the World Heritage List.

The only BYZANTINE thing about Serbian or Romanian or Greek Orthodox Churches is the Architecture style and painting style ;)

So, MarkCorrigan, before stating such false and unfounded affirmations, consult some information sources, ok?

This HUNDREADS of middle age centuriyes old Orthodox Churches couldn't have been built by abanian, because they are muslims... , so they are not albanian!
And neither the land they are built on!
KOSOVO is SERBIA!

American council for Kosovo
www.savekosovo.org


www.savekosovo.org


.

[Travis]

So, seven pages in I think that so far we've determined that the crux of this is that Kosovo, who's majority population wants independence, should not be independent because (1) it was, a long time ago, once the homeland of the Serbs who, while obsessed over keeping it, apparently don't want to actually live there and (2) the Muslims, who actually do live there and are the majority of the population, did some nasty stuff way back in WW2.

Using this logic the folks in Brittany, France should get the UK back with the present day UK population being sent back to Germany which would be redivided and reoccupied by the USA since anyone who did bad stuff in WW2 don't have the right to self rule.

Seriously what kind of logic is that?

[Gurdur]

KOSOVO is SERBIA!

NOT ANYMORE! :D

This is too easy.

[FreeRomanian]

Travis, you say
"(1) it was, a long time ago, once the homeland of the Serbs who, while obsessed over keeping it, apparently don't want to actually live there and (2) the Muslims, who actually do live there and are the majority of the population, did some nasty stuff way back in WW2."

1)Serbs were majoritary in Kosovo until 1940 . Not so long ago!
Since then Serbs fled Kosovo because the albanian authonomous government discriminated them completely in every aspect of their lives.
And this begaen with TITO who after WW2, denied the more than 300.000 serbians who fled Kosovo because albanian fascists shot another 100.000.Only then Albanians became majority.Did you know that?And after the Autonomy, the tendency of serbian extinction of course, accelerated.Tito is responsable for this!(I'm not joking,this is the reality. Consult some history if you think I am exagerating the numbers.)

Watch this movie also made by Western analists.You will understand all:
A Brief History Of Ethnic Cleansing Of Serbs In Kosovo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5blPZoXGU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5blPZoXGU


2) Not back to WW2, but also in our days.Since 1999 almost all non -albanians including Serbs, Gypsies, gorani, bosnian, croats, ant others, summing almost 250.000 fled Kosovo, because albanian UCK was intimidating the and threatened to kill them if they remained.


So those serbian and other non-albanian people wanted to stay there, but were not let to.


Serbian refugees must return to their homes and lands in Kosovo!

With what right were they deprived of their property?

Just that albanians are majoritary, serbs must leave their homes and lands?

Come on! Does any of you have reason?


Kosovo is Serbia!

www.savekosovo.org

Site-ul din Romania:
www.kosovo.ro

[Ziggurat]

Seriously what kind of logic is that?

Logic which requires large colorful fonts to make its point, I guess.