Men and woo- I'd like both men and women to offer opinions on this

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I have a question for everyone who is interested in these things.

I'm intrigued by something Michael Shermer wrote (I believe it's from his book Why People Believe Weird Things but I didn't check):

http://skeptically.org/logicalthreads/id15.html (http://skeptically.org/logicalthreads/id15.html)

Gender and Belief.
In many ways the orthogonal relationship of intelligence and beliefs is not unlike that of gender and beliefs. With the surge of popularity of psychic mediums like John Edward, James Van Praagh, and Sylvia Browne, it has become obvious to observers, particularly among journalists assigned to cover them, that at any given gathering (usually at large hotel conference rooms holding several hundred people, each of whom paid several hundred dollars to be there), that the vast majority (at least 75%) are women. Understandably, journalists inquire whether women, therefore, are more superstitious or less rational than men, who typically disdain such mediums and scoff at the notion of talking to the dead. Indeed, a number of studies have found that women hold more superstitious beliefs and accept more paranormal phenomena as real than men. In one study of 132 men and women in New York City, for example, scientists found that more women than men believed in knocking on wood or that walking under a ladder brought bad luck. 13 Another study showed that more college women than men professed belief in precognition. 14
Although the general conclusion from such studies seems compelling, it is wrong. The problem here is with limited sampling. If you attend any meeting of creationists, Holocaust “revisionists,” or UFOlogists, for instance, you will find almost no women at all (the few that I see at such conferences are the spouses of attending members and, for the most part, they look bored out of their skulls). For a variety of reasons related to the subject matter and style of reasoning, creationism, revisionism, and UFOlogy are guy beliefs. So, while gender is related to the target of one’s beliefs, it appears to be unrelated to the process of believing. In fact, in the same study that found more women than men believed in precognition, it turns out that more men than women believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster. 15 Seeing into the future is a woman’s thing, tracking down chimerical monsters is a man’s thing. There are no differences between men and women in the power of belief, only in what they choose to believe.

Allthough I'd like to believe and I do believe that men and women are intellectually equal and very much the same, this struck me as very true, and I'd add conspiracy theorists (enspecially 9/11 "truthers") to the list.

Whenever I see some nutjob or nutjobs with signs and bullhorns, handing out leaflets and screaming about how Bush orchestrated 9/11 in Washington Square Park or Union Square or disturbing events like the Halloween parade, you can bet that they are all guys.

Sure, I've had obnoxious-way-too-liberal-hippie-chick types tell me the same nonsense. Sure, Erica Jong and Rosie have said the same thing Charlie Sheen and Richard Belzer have. Sure, some of the twoofers posting videos and making DVDs and ranting on Z-list radio shows are women. Yes, my mom used to think that LBJ shot JFK.

But the vast majority are guys. As a matter of fact, it took me some effort to even think of any female conspiracy nuts. They are all mainly gentile, white and straight men, too- allthough I've heard some of the same crap from minority and gay men. What gives? :confused:

This is even more perplexing given that politically women are generally more likely to be liberal than men are (not that I haven't heard of ring-wing conspiracy weirdos).

Certainly they are more somewhat more likely to vote Democratic. I'd definitely imagine more men than women, say, voted for George Bush in 2000 and 2004- so why the disparity in the 9/11 nuttery, even among the "Green Party liberal" crowd?

Same thing with Holocaust revisionists and "the Jews did 9/11" or "the Jew conspiracy to take over the world" people. Look at them - they are all guys.

Off the top of my head, I can't even think of any women in the public eye who advocate that garbage. Off the top of my head, I can barely think of any women I've personally known or have met who advocate that.

Which is very surprising, given that racism and the hatred of Jews have no gender. I have known or met as many female Jew-haters as I have male- but for some reason, all of the professionals and hobbyists of it, from Nazis, to neo-Nazis, to Muslim fanatics, to KKK members to Holocaust revisionists to world domination conspiracy nuts, are men.

Now, I have heard the vilest, most despicable garbage about Jews, blacks, Hispanics, Arabs, Muslims, Asians and gays come out of the mouths of women- housewives, mothers, teenage girls. It's an evenly split demographic, gender-wise. Women aren't inherently more accepting, open-minded or more loving than men when it comes to people of other ethnicities, religions, orientation or races- so why are almost all people who make prejudice a hobby men?

One explanation that occurs to me is that groups like the KKK, the Nazis, neo-Nazis and Muslim fundamentalists aren't exactly known for female leadership. Still, it baffles me that even among racists, this kind of nuttery is only popular among guys.

Now, I love men and so I'm interested in how their minds work. They usually aren't that hard to figure out or understand but in this nonsense, they are a mystery to me.

And the creationists- I'd think that as many women as men would advocate ID and other creation science. After all, women are more likely to be religious than men are. Certainly there are as many female theists as male ones. And the opposite is true- men are more likely to be atheists/ agnostics/ secularists/ skeptics than women.

Yes, most pastors, priests, activists, legislators, etc. are men. Again, the pros are guys. Taking it further, the vast majority religious and political fanatics and religious terrorists are almost all men. The occasional female suicide bomber and the political and media performance artist known as Ann Coulter being an exception.

After thinking about it though, I realize that Shermer is correct- all creationists are men. How many female creationists can you think of? Coulter? Kirk Cameron's wife? Kent Hovind's wife?

Have I ever met female creationists? I've met religious women who don't accept evolution, yes, but no one involved enough to want to read books about it, go to conventions, protest, etc.

I wonder why. Any theories?

However, I can instantly see why UFO crazies and Bigfoot hunters are, in the majority, men- aliens and creatures just aren't sexy or cool or interesting to most women. They just aren't.

Women just don't gravitate towards that stuff, even if we are science fiction fans or fantasy buffs, interested in animals or we dream of travels and adventure.

[Linda777NJ]

Got me...I am an atheist, prefer conspiracy theories and aliens. The possibility makes it an interesting topic.... at least those possibilities seem more logical to me than the notion of chatting up the dead through some greedy carnival sideshow twit like Sylvia Browne.

[Minarvia]

When I think back to my college days all the guys I knew were as suseptible to woo as we ladies. The difference between us was that we gals were more likely to not mind being seen buying woo or paying a "psychic" and the guys were too embarrassed to be seen spending their money. They had the belief, but not the guts to be seen showing the belief.
That was only in my own personal experience, tho, and way back when. Besides, believing in the UFO stuff and conspiracy stuff is outwardly cooler than psychics, palm reading, and fluffy woo.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Got me...I am an atheist, prefer conspiracy theories and aliens. The possibility makes it an interesting topic.... at least those possibilities seem more logical to me than the notion of chatting up the dead through some greedy carnival sideshow twit like Sylvia Browne.

To me, aliens and conspiracy theories and the people who push them are as dunderheaded, idiotic and laughable as mediumship, fortune-telling, etc. . And just as real.

I'll granted that conspiracies aren't impossible by virtue of breaking all known laws of reality (like tarot card fortune-telling or astrology is) - just all known common sense. They aren't physically impossible- but they are still absolutely impossible.

Woo is woo.

[Hokulele]

It would have been more convincing if these studies included people other than New Yorkers. For example, Chinese men and women equally fall for medicinal woo. Japanese men and women are equally likely to buy omamori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omamori). West Africans have their voodoo. I think that some of the gender differences in this study, as well as Shermer's critique, tend to be culturally influenced in America, not necessarily hard-wired.

[Jeff Corey]

I've read his book and used it for a critical thinking course.
He doesn't even imply it is hard wired.

[Hokulele]

I've read his book and used it for a critical thinking course.
He doesn't even imply it is hard wired.


Sorry, poor wording on my part. The OP seemed to be asking why the men and women in the study and Shermer's discussion believed in different types of woo. I think it would be more helpful to first determine if such a difference in beliefs is universal before trying to find a mechanism that drives this difference. If we can show that the differences are universal or are local only, we could narrow down the field of potential causes.

[Jeff Corey]

True.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Jeff, you're a man. Tell me: according to you, why is it that creationists, Holocaust revisionists, skinheads, white supremacists, 9/11 conspiracy crazies, terrorists, crop circle people and UFO nuts are almost never women?

What is it about you guys? That makes you want to spam the Internet with unwatchable videos and hunt the forests, seas and skies for imaginary creatures?

[rebecca]

I've done a bit of research on this and the evidence has led me to a very different conclusion than Michael. It was the basis of the talk I gave for the NYC Skeptics last month, audio of which is online here:
http://www.nycskeptics.org/lectures#watson

One of these nights I'll have enough time to turn it into a more accessible essay sort of thing (that I'd like to perfect and expand upon), but in the meantime I think the lecture is a good overview.

[Gate2501]

I would say that more men are into conspiracies because it is so tied to a big ego. "I know something you don't know" or "I know the REAL truth about x y and z" are very ego-centric lines of thinking. I could be wrong about this, but it is the way I have always viewed it.

It is all about being smarter, stronger and faster than everyone else as usual.

FYI I am a man, but I loathe conspiracy theories.

[Miss Whiplash]

I think it has to do with the different psychological make up between men and women. Men's woo is more simply more active. It has more to do with conquest than safety. The heart of women's woo is ultimately safety and assurance.

Just my thoughts.

[Jeff Corey]

Jeff, you're a man. Tell me: according to you, why is it that creationists, Holocaust revisionists, skinheads, white supremacists, 9/11 conspiracy crazies, terrorists, crop circle people and UFO nuts are almost never women?

What is it about you guys? That makes you want to spam the Internet with unwatchable videos and hunt the forests, seas and skies for imaginary creatures?

Eeney,
I take from it your post that you are a woman. I could tell because women always make sweeping generalizations from insufficient data.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Eeney,
I take from it your post that you are a woman. I could tell because women always make sweeping generalizations from insufficient data.

:D

Ok, let me rephrase myself. :) If, based on anecdotal evidence, most Neo-Nazis, violent militants, pseudoscientists, twoofers and Big Foot hunters were men, why would that be?

Edit: Pretty nice interview, Rebecca. I'm interested- why do you say creationism "seemed like a guy belief" to you?

I'd agree about 9/11 nuttery, the Bermuda Triangle, monsters and Holocaust revisionism at first seeming like such guy things but creationism, at least at first, seemed like a gender neutral belief to me. Not really something where there would be a gender breakdown. Not even a gender disparity, since religion is about equally popular among men and women.

Edit: I agree with your thesis, that it's a matter of belief in different things. God knows that men are as full of it as women can be...and most woo is just universally appealing and apparent among all human beings.

That's funny; I've been on Internet forums since I was about 12 years old and have always taken alot of delight from flaming wars :P. I've always loved a good debate and a good fight but then, I've always been a tomboy :).

Not that I don't treasure the Internet as a way to make online friends and acquaintances and as a way to communicate and connect with people. Sure, it's great to have a sense of community, feel like you know someone- but you can attack me, rant endlessly and in-fight :). In person, I wouldn't feel comfortable at an old boy's club but guys not acting like gentlemen on a forum doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

Edit: Hmm, that's funny. I can honestly say that I've never felt like I had to be "ladylike" on here. Then again, just about everyone I meet online, whether it's on IMDB or in Harry Potter fandom, automatically assumes I'm a man in the first place. :D

[sgf8]

Thinking out loud now....I went to a creationist talk at a church a few years ago and it seems split in gender. Creationists seem more confrontational and the women I know just aren't that into it. Quietly I think there may be more female creationists at least the women I know are less educated in science and haven't really thought about it (or care).

I don't know many (thankfully) truthers, but every one of them has been a man or boy. Again don't know why that is but just my experience. Maybe again this is a "louder" belief and women are just lost in the noise?

All the psychic believers I have heard have been women. Is this a more emotional belief? I went with Joe Nickell to Lilydale, NY a few years ago. We were on a skeptic day trip, we broke up into the audience where about 200 people were sitting by the "magic stump" and the local psychics came out and "read" the group, they were hoping to encourage readings. That's another story, but the audience was pretty split in gender groups with a small leaning towards women.

The classes that they offer seemed to be full of women practicing automatic reading for example. We skeptics all split up so to encourage being read. I sat next to a older couple that I didn't know, the man kept telling his wife, "that seemed so general" or other skeptic comments. She never said a thing back to him.

When I was dating on-line I noticed that there were lots more men who listed themselves as non-religious, atheist or freethinkers. If I pretended to be a man looking for a woman my age I rarely ever found any non-religious, atheist or freethinking women looking for men.

So with this unscientific thought process I would have to agree with Shermer. Just look at a skeptic event and how few women are there without men or dragging their man along. You have Harriett Hall, Rebecca and me. I take that back, I met a Susan from Minn a few years ago at the Toolbox and she was totally alone.

And yes, you have always appeared to me to be female Eeney.

[sleepy_lioness]

[QUOTE=sgf8;3556282]When I was dating on-line I noticed that there were lots more men who listed themselves as non-religious, atheist or freethinkers. If I pretended to be a man looking for a woman my age I rarely ever found any non-religious, atheist or freethinking women looking for men. [QUOTE]

This is interesting. I wonder if women don't like to describe themselves as atheist etc because they perceive it to have something of a macho image which might put guys off? As a woman I sometimes feel a social pressure not to be confrontational or overt about my lack of belief. I think it could be perceived as 'unfeminine' to be so open about one's rationality. Hmmm, that's depressing.

[Lilith]

Eeney,
I take from it your post that you are a woman. I could tell because women always make sweeping generalizations from insufficient data.


Hey!!

[Veleria]

Maybe this supposed 'gender seperation' merely has to do with trend?

Perhaps crystals and aura-readings, or whatever, are simply considered 'un-cool', even un-manly? That would explain how it could be more accepted elswhere than America, as trend can easily differ from country to country.

I do not believe however that this also applies to any racist communities or the likes. ( Who in their right mind would call racism trendy?)

I remember from my time in the 'wicca-ish' social circles, that there where in fact a pretty even men-to-women-ratio. There weren't many of us though, so a nation-wide demographic parallel is not likely. But that's not the point.

The point is that, most of these boys where satanists (satanism apparently share a number 'magickal tecniques' with other magical religions) before diverting to the more 'white magick' world view.

One could wonder why that is, I imagine it could have happened like this:

1:Teenage boy stumbles upon a forum/webpage/tv-show about modern magic.
2:Teenage boy finds it 'cool'.
3:Teenage boy does a bit of research on said magic and the related religions.

Now, teenage boy is likely to find that in order to practice magic a certain level of worship to a deity is often requiered, luckily there are plenty to chose from.
But if you were a teenage boy, witch do you think you would then be more likely to choose; Satan From The Fiery Pits Of Doom? Or The All-Loving Mother That Is MoonGoddess?

[Pope130]

I think the apparent difference depends a great deal on how you define wooish beliefs, and how wide you cast your net.

For example, if you include "Liff" ('Liff' is any book with a jacket that says: "Read this book and it will change your life", Douglas Adams) then it seems that women are much more susceptible. This is the whole self help genre. I'd add programs that are supposed to change your life, like Amway, Copper-craft, envelope stuffing, affirmation a day calenders, "The Secret" and pretty much anything you see on Oprah.

Cast you net a bit wider and you find 50yo overweight men who think that all they need is hair transplants to get the 20yo supermodel. Self delusion is both deep and wide.

My, tuppence,

Robert

[sgf8]

This is interesting. I wonder if women don't like to describe themselves as atheist etc because they perceive it to have something of a macho image which might put guys off? As a woman I sometimes feel a social pressure not to be confrontational or overt about my lack of belief. I think it could be perceived as 'unfeminine' to be so open about one's rationality. Hmmm, that's depressing.

I just think that there are FAR MORE un-religious men than women. When I think back to my church days, I can see how many more women there were than men sitting in the pews.

Susan

[rebecca]

Edit: Pretty nice interview, Rebecca. I'm interested- why do you say creationism "seemed like a guy belief" to you?


Thanks. I lumped creationism in with "guy beliefs" for the same reason I imagine Shermer did: because the most visible adherents are men.


Edit: I agree with your thesis, that it's a matter of belief in different things.


Actually, that was not my thesis, that was my initial belief. Examining the evidence led me to the opposite conclusion: women are more susceptible to crazy beliefs than are men.


That's funny; I've been on Internet forums since I was about 12 years old and have always taken alot of delight from flaming wars :P. I've always loved a good debate and a good fight but then, I've always been a tomboy :).


Me, too. That's why I had to take special care to set aside my own personal preferences in favor of identifying what the majority of women were telling me they'd like to experience online.

[ponderingturtle]

Thanks. I lumped creationism in with "guy beliefs" for the same reason I imagine Shermer did: because the most visible adherents are men.

Which raises an interesting issue, if for say 9/11 conspiracies and creationism, why do the smaller percentage of believers that are men, make up so much of the out front rabid promoters of this?

Is it that when men go woo they go way woo? Is it competitiveness and a desire to be at the top?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Which raises an interesting issue, if for say 9/11 conspiracies and creationism, why do the smaller percentage of believers that are men, make up so much of the out front rabid promoters of this?

Is it that when men go woo they go way woo? Is it competitiveness and a desire to be at the top?

Yeah, that's what I asked in my OP- how is it that even if a particular woo has as many female devotees as not, or a majority female membership, the leaders always seem to be men?

One explanaton that occurs to me as to why there as more Christian women than men but the ID-promoting politicians, pastors, scientists, activists and authors are almost all men is that religion is not the best place to find female leadership.

Sure, the Episocopalians, the Pentecostals and other churchs and denominations have high-ranking female clergy but the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox, the Southern Baptist Convention and many others don't even allow it.

So maybe that explains the paucity of female priests and pastors and other clergy advocating ID the way Jerry Falwell did.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Actually, that was not my thesis, that was my initial belief. Examining the evidence led me to the opposite conclusion: women are more susceptible to crazy beliefs than are men.


My gut feeling would actually tell me the same- but then I see the wild-eyed conspiracy freaks littering every public square in NYC every other weekend and I think there isn't that much of a difference after all.

And whether they are well-dressed and attractive college boys, middle-aged family men or wild-eyed homeless drug addicts, I think "Thank you, 9/11 conspiracists, you really even it out for us. Talk about crazy beliefs, you match psychics, mediums, divination, astrology and graphology by yourself!"

[ponderingturtle]

My gut feeling would actually tell me the same- but then I see the wild-eyed conspiracy freaks littering every public square in NYC every other weekend and I think there isn't that much of a difference after all.

And whether they are well-dressed and attractive college boys, middle-aged family men or wild-eyed homeless drug addicts, I think "Thank you, 9/11 conspiracists, you really even it out for us. Talk about crazy beliefs, you match psychics, mediums, divination, astrology and graphology by yourself!"

The thing is that Rebbeca's research showed that more women believe in 9/11 conspiracies than men. But more men seem to be in the rabbid groups.

This is true of 9/11 conspiracies as it is true for creationists.

So why do the men protest and show their beliefs in public?

[Elizabeth I]

Edit: Pretty nice interview, Rebecca. I'm interested- why do you say creationism "seemed like a guy belief" to you?

I don't know about Rebecca, but I would guess that it might be that creationism emphasizes the creation of woman from man's rib, and thus her natural subservience to him (if you believe that kind of thing.) We all know how uppity women can get if they're not kept in their place. :rolleyes:

[Jeff Corey]

At the local New Community Cinema, someone is presenting the "Vagina Monologues" and the trouble and strife wanted to know if I wanted to see it.
So a bunch of replies spin through me gulliver.
"No, I'll wait for the dialogues, probably be more Platonic."
"Didn't know they were all that articulate, must be trained by Noam Chomsky, the cunning linguist."
Needless to say.

[quarky]

interesting question, Eeney.
Perhaps you're reading too much into it?

What if woo was analysed as any other product?
That it didn't have any extra weight or significance?

Guys like guns; women like household items.
Purely anecdotal, but in my experience, gay women are more into crystals than anyone.
Why? Crystals are rocks (guy stuff) but also pretty decorations (Gal stuff).

Monsters, like nessie and bigfoot are guy stuff...they want to go out and explore; kill something, and bring it home, hopefully to great praise.

Outer space stuff is male territory. Flying saucers are hi-tek muscle cars; metal and big engines.
Churchy stuff is definitely female. Women love church because you get to dress up. Guys hate to dress up. Guys that endure church are either hoping to score points with their wife, or become the next big mahoff.

Women like to get out of the house, same as guys. But they might be more inclined to get with a group of women doing women stuff (aromatherapy, aura fluffing, etc) than run around in the swamp looking for monsters.

isn't it all entertainment?
If seen as such, doesn't it break down in predictable ways?
Chic flicks are nuturing. Guy flicks involve guns and car wrecks.

males are drawn to violence; even if they are protesting violence...they dig the confrontational aspects of the peace rally.

Of course this is all too sterotypical, but generally, we aren't all that sophisticated.
people dedicate their lives to things they barely understand or believe in.
we are a bunch of predictable chumps, posing as original thinkers.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Hmmm no. I don't think this has any gender-related origins. I think that being preconceived to believe in superstitions is something more of a cultural aspect. If anything, what the researchs might find is that since a lot of "male" and "female" behaviours we learn are actually based on social behaviours that are adopted out of pure imitation; that this might lead to other things, including the predetermination to believe in woo. But sexual orientation itself being a main factor? I doubt it. Sometimes it might have to do with the personality of each individual, which makes him/her more prone to believe (or not believe) in woo. But again, the gender itself, I doubt it.

But if you ever find some compelling evidence to prove me wrong, by all means. I shall take a look at it (A critical look, that is):D

[quarky]

Hmmm no. I don't think this has any gender-related origins. I think that being preconceived to believe in superstitions is something more of a cultural aspect. If anything, what the researchs might find is that since a lot of "male" and "female" behaviours we learn are actually based on social behaviours that are adopted out of pure imitation; that this might lead to other things, including the predetermination to believe in woo. But sexual orientation itself being a main factor? I doubt it. Sometimes it might have to do with the personality of each individual, which makes him/her more prone to believe (or not believe) in woo. But again, the gender itself, I doubt it.

But if you ever find some compelling evidence to prove me wrong, by all means. I shall take a look at it (A critical look, that is):D

typical male answer.

I say we take a deep breath, and measure our penises.

then we will be more objective.

[RSLancastr]

Something I have noticed, and have mentioned on these forums a time or two: While men are definitely in the minority of believers in Browne, Edward, van Praagh and the lot, an inordinately large percentage of those men are gay.

I don't know if any study has been done to confirm or refute this, and it is altogether possible that I have come to this conclusion through confirmation bias, but I do not think so.

Assuming for the moment that this is true, why is this? If indeed believing in mediums is a largely "feminine" trait, then is it that more gay men are comfortable enough with their "feminine side" to embrace this belief? Or perhaps gay men aren't more prone to believe in it, but are less embarrassed than straight male believers to be open about the belief? Or, if it is a largely hard-wired feminine thing, do gay men share this hard-wiring to a greater degree than straight men?

It's an interesting side-issue to the male/female belief dbate.

[JoeEllison]

Well... I never thought of dividing up the stupid based on gender. That's saying something, considering I have a rant about how women and men see colors differently. No man would ever have come up with chartreuse, for instance.

[nails3jesus0]

i think its a matter of whats encouraged in society.

like women are encouraged to make family and relationships the most important thing in their lives, so woo involving stuff like talking to your dead family members is going to be more appealing. I dont think women are encouraged to think about the mechanics of 9/11 or species discovery or science in general, so that sort of woo attracts men instead.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

males are drawn to violence; even if they are protesting violence...they dig the confrontational aspects of the peace rally.



Rebecca and ponderingturtle suggested the same: in-your-face, confrontational, frothing-at-the mouth rabid, wild-eyed screaming woo, like 9/11 conspiracy nuttery, and "Jews taking over the world" conspiracy theories and Holocaust Revisionism is a guy thing. Even female 9/11 loons don't make themselves visible; there's a large disparity between belief and activism, enspecially in leadership.

I'm not sure I believe that, though. I've been to a handful of peace rallies and protests in my time, including the Republican Convention protests in 2004 (which I'm actually pretty embarrassed to admit to now- those are no doubt well-meaning people but, my god, what schmucks they can be), and none of the women I saw there looked shy about being there. :boxedin:

It's hard to say but I'd also say there were as many or only marginally more men at these events than women. Certainly the group I was with had mny more women than men- but that might be another example of girls banding together when in the minority.

Speaking of which, I finally found at least one outspoken female truther, besides Rosie and Erica Jong and that Judy Wood woman who spoke at Cooper Union :D:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=conspiracy+wars

[UnrepentantSinner]

Thinking out loud now....I went to a creationist talk at a church a few years ago and it seems split in gender. Creationists seem more confrontational and the women I know just aren't that into it. Quietly I think there may be more female creationists at least the women I know are less educated in science and haven't really thought about it (or care).

I cannot think of a single high-profile Creationist or IDer who is a woman. I've also noticed that of the Creationists who participate in on-line Crevo debate, the men are more likely to engage or confront, while the women will say they just want to have their opinion and express it without "getting jumped all over". And there are a lot of female Creationists, they just don't, or don't want to, engage in the debate.

You paragraph is spot on with my experiences.

[celticwarrior]

Jeff, you're a man. Tell me: according to you, why is it that creationists, Holocaust revisionists, skinheads, white supremacists, 9/11 conspiracy crazies, terrorists, crop circle people and UFO nuts are almost never women?

What is it about you guys? That makes you want to spam the Internet with unwatchable videos and hunt the forests, seas and skies for imaginary creatures?

Maybe this has to do with the innate differences between genders that are a result of evolution. I believe women, as a whole, are more likely to seek harmony in a group dynamic than men. If you notice the more dangerous the belief to society ostracizing you the less likely women are to publicly subscribe to it. There are very few women who publicly renounce the Holocaust but a lot more of them are Creationists. Just a thought.

CW

CW

[Cuddles]

There have been several threads on this topic before. The general consensus is simply that men and women tend to go for different kinds of woo, just as they tend to go for different things in other areas. Men generally seem to prefer conspiracies and aliens while women seem to prefer new age, feel-good type stuff. It's for the same reasons that men tend to prefer cars and bikes while women tend to prefer horses. When it comes down to it, no-one really knows exactly why. No doubt some of it's genetic, some of it's environmental and there are plenty of exceptions all over the place.

[sgf8]

Something I have noticed, and have mentioned on these forums a time or two: While men are definitely in the minority of believers in Browne, Edward, van Praagh and the lot, an inordinately large percentage of those men are gay.


This is really interesting if true. Maybe with the exception of Browne the "followers" are attracted to the psychics? Personally I think that men are just not into crying in public and wanting to talk (to dead or alive people) about their feelings. That just isn't cool.

And face it, if the psychic pulls out the story of how grandma ran over kitty with the truck when you were a little boy, that is going to cause some painful tears to flow. And no one esp. a manly man wants to be blubbering in front of everyone over kitty's loss.

Susan

[ponderingturtle]

There have been several threads on this topic before. The general consensus is simply that men and women tend to go for different kinds of woo, just as they tend to go for different things in other areas. Men generally seem to prefer conspiracies and aliens while women seem to prefer new age, feel-good type stuff. It's for the same reasons that men tend to prefer cars and bikes while women tend to prefer horses. When it comes down to it, no-one really knows exactly why. No doubt some of it's genetic, some of it's environmental and there are plenty of exceptions all over the place.

Check out Rebbeca's lecture. She looked for data about that, and found that aliens seems to be the only kind of woo where more men believe in it than women.

[Soapy Sam]

So how about sceptics?
Are male sceptics sceptical of Reiki and female sceptics sceptical of UFOs?

[Ron_Tomkins]

typical male answer.

I say we take a deep breath, and measure our penises.

then we will be more objective.



Oh I bet you would love that, now wouldn't you?:)

I have no interest in putting my penis next to another man's penis, but thank you for your kind offer. Nice try. Good day.

[Ateius]

I don't know about Rebecca, but I would guess that it might be that creationism emphasizes the creation of woman from man's rib, and thus her natural subservience to him (if you believe that kind of thing.) We all know how uppity women can get if they're not kept in their place. :rolleyes:

Tell me about it. Now hurry up and make my dinner, woman! ;)

[nails3jesus0]

I believe women, as a whole, are more likely to seek harmony in a group dynamic than men.


HAHA

no.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Men and woo- I'd like both men and women to offer opinions on this


So no hermaphrodites allowed to give their opinion? That sounds to me as segregationism.

[AmyWilson]

Who cares what gender, race, creed, or religion goes to psychic mediums most? It depends on the individual what they believe or not.

And talking to spirits of the dead and superstition are two different things. One can believe in spirits, but not think walking under a ladder will bring bad luck.

Dumb thread.

[arthwollipot]

Who cares what gender, race, creed, or religion goes to psychic mediums most? It depends on the individual what they believe or not.Clearly, the OP cares. I thought it was obvious that it was a matter of interest. There are clear trends, and the OP was interested in those trends.

And talking to spirits of the dead and superstition are two different things. One can believe in spirits, but not think walking under a ladder will bring bad luck.Wow. Yes. I agree.

Dumb thread.And my faith in the constancy of the universe is restored.

There is no such thing as an uninteresting subject, Amy, only an uninterested person. If you are uninterested, there is no need for you to post in the thread.

[Soapy Sam]

There can be needs outwith interest, grasshopper.

[Lilith]

I come from a relatively large family of 6 kids (compared with my friend who has 10 siblings!), plus parents, and I can comment on where we all stand...

Quickly:
3 females - one complete skeptic, one very woo, one wooish
5 males - one complete skeptic, one very woo, the other 3 wooish

In more detail (siblings first):
Two of us are what I would call complete skeptics - one is female (me, the youngest sibling) the other male.
Two of us are quite woo - again, one is female, the other male, and they are my oldest siblings but have always been woo.
The other two siblings, both males, are not skeptics (they believe in a god, attend church semi-regularly), but don't go around talking about woo things.

Then there are the folks, in their 70's and 80's, one male, one female (duh) and I don't remember any wooish talks when I was growing up, nor did they go to church when I was a kid (but I did!) - but they both attend church regularly now.

[meg]

Rather than assume there's some essentialist reason for men gravitating to certain woo cultures and women gravitating to others, I tend to believe it has more to do with the social rules of that woo culture. I think woo beliefs are mostly equal opportunity beliefs, and are believed pretty equally by men and women. However, who is allowed to rise to some kind of vocal leadership role within the community differs depending on the fundamental beliefs of the particular woo. For example, creationists obviously believe strongly in bible woo, and therefore, in general, tend to buy into the whole "woman should not presume to teach the man" woo. It's not that there aren't a lot of women that believe in creationism, it's just that they are not permitted to be particularly vocal or rise to leadership type positions. Their books won't be published. Their thoughts won't be listened to. They are supposed to be meek and subservient to the men, so that's what they do. They are also supposed to stay home and take care of the children, so they're less likely to attend conferences and conventions.

I don't really know, but I would guess that any woo that includes some fundamental belief in a "natural order" of things, or in "God's plan", like white supremacists, kkk, nazis, holocaust deniers, etc will be dominated by males who also believe that men are naturally superior to women. Again, it's not that there aren't just as many hideously bigoted women, it's just that nobody in the movement listens to them.

Spirits, being disembodied, apparently seem to not care too much about the gender of their channeler, though, so women are just as able to pretend to talk to the dead as men. General myths about "women's intuition" and how "women are more sensitive than men" in our culture at large might even give them a small edge as to their believability in ESP and the like.

Crystals, reiki, healing touch, etc all empower the woodoer, which may be particularly attractive to those members of the community that have felt disempowered by their childhood male centered religion and home culture. Wicca adds the extra enticement of appreciating the "feminine devine", an attractive counter balance.

As to UFO, troothers and Bigfoot believers, I know a whole lot of women that believe in it, but just don't feel any particular need to prove it to be true. I just look at it kind of like any other field of study (no matter how ridiculous it is). It's hard for a woman to break into a male dominated field. Once some woman does, you'll see more women join in.


My apologies to Rebecca. The flakiness of my internet connection prohibits me from watching any but the shortest videos right now. I look forward to reading your future writings about your research.

[Pope130]

Men and woo- I'd like both men and women to offer opinions on this


So no hermaphrodites allowed to give their opinion? That sounds to me as segregationism.

Just edit the question in your mind to read: "I'd like (those who are) both men and women to offer opinions on this."

[quarky]

Oh I bet you would love that, now wouldn't you?:)

I have no interest in putting my penis next to another man's penis, but thank you for your kind offer. Nice try. Good day.

We measure them in privacy, ferchrisakes!

(metric units, please)

[Ron_Tomkins]

We measure them in privacy, ferchrisakes!

(metric units, please)



Okay okay. Just don't accuse me of being a liar if you get surprised by the final results.:)

[quarky]

not angstrom units, btw.

[arthwollipot]

not angstrom units, btw.That would be an ego boost! Let me see - assume an average of 8 inches, that converts to somewhere around 20cm, which sounds pretty good, but in angstroms...

2 032 000 000! (http://www.onlineconversion.com/)

Now there's a big number!

From now on I'm going to measure my member in angstroms.

[Inquisitive Raven]

I cannot think of a single high-profile Creationist or IDer who is a woman. I've also noticed that of the Creationists who participate in on-line Crevo debate, the men are more likely to engage or confront, while the women will say they just want to have their opinion and express it without "getting jumped all over". And there are a lot of female Creationists, they just don't, or don't want to, engage in the debate.

You paragraph is spot on with my experiences.

Haven't met FTK have you?:rolleyes:

Actually, AFAICT, the outspoken female creos are on school boards, in Florida, North Carolina, Oklahoma, etc. They may not be the leaders, but they're there.

Ohh, just thought of a possibility. Denyse O'Leary?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Haven't met FTK have you?:rolleyes:

Who?

Actually, AFAICT, the outspoken female creos are on school boards, in Florida, North Carolina, Oklahoma, etc. They may not be the leaders, but they're there.

Definately agree with that, and some definately are the leaders. IIRC one of the Kansas school board Creationist leaders was a woman. I was referring to high profile Creationists like Hovind, Morris, Gish, Ham etc.

- edit Kathy Martin and Connie Morris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_evolution_hearings) are the two I'm thinking of.

Ohh, just thought of a possibility. Denyse O'Leary?

Who?

[aries]

I remember seeing an episode of Medium in Danish TV, where Allison's husband were to be interviewed by an FBI official using a polygraph. He were told by Allison to tell the truth about his wife's abilities (this is not to be a discussion about Medium, though, there is a point to this, I promise).

He told the truth and answered the FBI's guys question about whether or not his wife were able to tell what he was going to say, always would know what he had been up to, and sometimes even finished his sentences. And some other stuff. The FBI concluded this:

*you know what. My wife is psychic, too*

And in my experience, most women and wifes are ---- not as Allison is portrayed in Medium, but in how they deal with everyday life.

Most women probably have a hunch if their partner are unfaithfull or is looking at other men or will question why a man gives her flowers, if he has not done so in the past or will probably know when a guy is lying to them or what they have been up to. Twice as many women than men believe in astrology.



The point here is that more women than seems to believe in pre-cognition. Maybe this is because most women's brain are wired a bit differently than most men's brains are wired?
This is just an idea as I have no studies to back this up (as of yet).

But I do think it makes sense in that back in the day of the stone ages, women would stay home (normally) and look after the children and slowly over time they would make a notice on when children and other could be in danger. And then react to this.

It could also be that women are encouraged by their mothers and society to be wary of men and then just be educated to learn, maybe unconscious?, by their mothers etc. to notice the little subtle signs men uses when they say tell a lie or tell a story that isn't quite true.

Interestingly, the Danish newspaper Belingske Tidende did a survey on this and found the
same as the N.Y. study did. Here's the link.

http://www.berlingske.dk/article/20080319/danmark/703190026/

Here's another link:

http://www.berlingske.dk/article/20080319/kultur/703190009/

The articles are in Danish (unfortunately) but the main thing is that 37 % of all Danes believe in ghosts, while 34% believe in clairvoyants, and 29% believe in astrology.

About 4 out of 10 women believe in clairvoyants, while 54% of men do not believe in either ghosts nor clairvoyants.

So it seems that this study from the Danish Gallup-institute validates (if this is the correct word) the study from N.Y. - especially since Gallup did interview 1022 Danes that were carefully selcted to match a representative section of the overall Danish population.

[meg]

About 4 out of 10 women believe in clairvoyants, while 54% of men do not believe in either ghosts nor clairvoyants.


Am I missing something, or is this saying that pretty much men and women are the same?

If 4 out of 10 women (40%) believe in clairvoyants, that means 6 out of 10 (60%) do not believe in clairvoyants, yes?

[sgf8]

About 4 out of 10 women believe in clairvoyants, while 54% of men do not believe in either ghosts nor clairvoyants.


That is 40% of women believe in clairvoyants
46% of men believe in clairvoyants.

or

60% of women do NOT believe in clairvoyants
54% of men do NOT believe in clairvoyants

Sorry, I just like my statistics neat and orderly.

Susan

[Francesca R]

That is 40% of women believe in clairvoyants
46% of men believe in clairvoyants. A part of me believes that this was predicted in advance.

[Ron_Tomkins]

not angstrom units, btw.


Ohhh geez. Everything has to be done your way, doesn't it???

[Ron_Tomkins]

That would be an ego boost! Let me see - assume an average of 8 inches, that converts to somewhere around 20cm, which sounds pretty good, but in angstroms...

2 032 000 000! (http://www.onlineconversion.com/)

Now there's a big number!

From now on I'm going to measure my member in angstroms.



Ohh I see what you're doing. You gave us the number in armstrong units AND you linked it to the page where you get the measures, so we can now process the number the opposite way and deduce the real measure of your member. Nice try but I'm not into picturing other men's members.

[ponderingturtle]

Am I missing something, or is this saying that pretty much men and women are the same?

If 4 out of 10 women (40%) believe in clairvoyants, that means 6 out of 10 (60%) do not believe in clairvoyants, yes?

THe thing is that the comparison is belief in clairvoyants vs disbelief in clairvouants and ghosts.

So if more than 6% of women believe in ghosts but not clairvoyants then more women believe in them

[ponderingturtle]

That is 40% of women believe in clairvoyants
46% of men believe in clairvoyants.



46% of men believe in clairvoyants and or ghosts.

[RSLancastr]

Ohh I see what you're doing. You gave us the number in armstrong units AND you linked it to the page where you get the measures, so we can now process the number the opposite way and deduce the real measure of your member. Nice try but I'm not into picturing other men's members.Well, he did say he was calculating it on an "average" of eight inches.

I'm not sure where he's getting that particular average...

[quarky]

Its starting to look like it might take a clairvoyant to decipher the % of males that believe in them.

I have a hunch that males are more likely to believe in anything that comes in candy apple red.

[arthwollipot]

Ohh I see what you're doing. You gave us the number in armstrong units AND you linked it to the page where you get the measures, so we can now process the number the opposite way and deduce the real measure of your member. Nice try but I'm not into picturing other men's members.Don't you go ascribing motives to me. I was just providing the method that I used to make the calculation. :rolleyes:

Well, he did say he was calculating it on an "average" of eight inches.

I'm not sure where he's getting that particular average...Well duh! I pulled it out of my... um, yeah. I believe that I can say without fear of contradiction that I have never measured, nor have I ever permitted anyone else to measure. So I can't honestly say that I know beyond a vague approximation.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

:Sigh: Well, speaking of which, I take it that pseudoscientific "can you make my johnson longer?" woo compromises mostly of men.

Then again, all breast enhancement woo...

[skeptigirl]

I think men and women are just attracted to different woo, the same way Republicans and Democrats are attracted to different woo.

[Inquisitive Raven]

Unrepentant Sinner:

FTK (For the Kids) is a notorious creationist troll on the evo discussion boards. She's managed to get herself banned on Pharyngula (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/plonk.php), and any AtBC'er should be able to tell you about her.

Denyse O'Leary is a sycophantic hanger-on at Uncommonly Dense who apparently has a large number of blogs that link to each other, and is a co-author of a book called The Spiritual Brain. I freely admit that I would never have heard of her if PZ Myers didn't occasionally comment on her idiocies on his blog (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=017254414699180528062%3Auyrcvn__yd0&q=Denyse+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fscienceblogs.com%2Fph aryngula%2F&sa=Search).

[UnrepentantSinner]

Unrepentant Sinner:

FTK (For the Kids) is a notorious creationist troll on the evo discussion boards. She's managed to get herself banned on Pharyngula (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/plonk.php), and any AtBC'er should be able to tell you about her.

Denyse O'Leary is a sycophantic hanger-on at Uncommonly Dense who apparently has a large number of blogs that link to each other, and is a co-author of a book called The Spiritual Brain. I freely admit that I would never have heard of her if PZ Myers didn't occasionally comment on her idiocies on his blog (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=017254414699180528062%3Auyrcvn__yd0&q=Denyse+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fscienceblogs.com%2Fph aryngula%2F&sa=Search).

Ah, and thanks for informing me of them. I don't read blogs so there are some cyberspace people that fall under my radar.

[ponderingturtle]

I think men and women are just attracted to different woo, the same way Republicans and Democrats are attracted to different woo.

That was the theory Rebbeca believed before her research, and was only able to find evidence for men believing in UFO's more than women.