NYC 9/11 Ballot Initiative

[SezMe]

Maybe this belongs in politics. If a mod thinks so, feel free to move it.

I heard a radio ad today about a NYC 9/11 Ballot Initiative (http://www.nyc911initiative.org/). Seems weird to me but I'd be interested in the opinion of those closer to the action (I'm in southern California). Is there polling data on this initiative? What do you folk closer to the action think? How is it being promoted and objected to? Who is standing up for and against it. Are any of our pet trolls here involved? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I looked at your link, Sez. It's definite troofer crapola.

Mocking the electoral failures of the troof movement is as on-topic to this forum as mocking thier logical failures.

[Redtail]

Can we get back to commentary on the ballot initiative?

I'm just waiting for the vote. If the numbers are even 1/4 of what truthers say they are, not only should this be on the ballot, but it should pass easily.

If it doesn't... Well I'd be really interested to read/hear how the NWO/illuminatti/Neocons/America suppressed the "truth" this time.

[Foolmewunz]

D.C.
This is an actual honest injun interesting topic. Do you have anything to add to this thread that is on topic? Or do you wish to continue your initiation rites as a Newbie and pan through as many threads as possible reciting the "Why can't you be civil?" meme. (As Tom Lehrer once remarked, "I feel the least that people who have difficulty communicating can do is have the decency to SHUT UP!")

Sezme - can you cite the radio station you heard this on? I'd be curious to know what sort of outlet the TM could afford. I'd also like to know more about the contents of the advert, who sponsored it (was it either We Are Change or our friends at A&E for 911 Truth?).

For my fellow Gothamites.... Has anyone got anything locally on this? Is there such an initiative being floated? By whom? Etc....

[Foolmewunz]

D.C.
This is an actual honest injun interesting topic. Do you have anything to add to this thread that is on topic? Or do you wish to continue your initiation rites as a Newbie and pan through as many threads as possible reciting the "Why can't you be civil?" meme. (As Tom Lehrer once remarked, "I feel the least that people who have difficulty communicating can do is have the decency to SHUT UP!")

Sezme - can you cite the radio station you heard this on? I'd be curious to know what sort of outlet the TM could afford. I'd also like to know more about the contents of the advert, who sponsored it (was it either We Are Change or our friends at A&E for 911 Truth?).

For my fellow Gothamites.... Has anyone got anything locally on this? Is there such an initiative being floated? By whom? Etc....


Sezme-Gothamites.... Never Mind. I hadn't realized there was a link in the OP. Now reading.

[jhunter1163]

I'm not that worried about this getting on the ballot. They'd have to get out of Mom's basement and go get actual live people to sign their silly petition. As we all know, Truthers are not good at this sort of thing. And, NYC being what it is, I doubt they'll get a very warm reception from the Gothamites.

That said, it disgusts me that they have the stones to put "Unanswered Family Questions" on their website. I'm tired of these people hiding behind the families. I may go looking for one of these morons and follow him around shouting "LIAR!"

What do you suppose my odds are of finding one in NYC?

[Foolmewunz]

Well, I read through it and was depressed at how few signatures they need - only 30,000. And if they are turned down by the City Council, they only need 15,000 more to over-ride. So they're shooting for 100,000 to be safe.

Ah, but..... I did find my own silver lining. The text of the petition has to contain the actual wording of the proposal and in the wording they state that this will require a 10,000,000 usd budget, but that NO GOVERNMENT FUNDS WILL BE REQUIRED. They will raise the money in the private sector.

End of wild goose chase. They couldn't get more than 100 people to show up for 9/11/07 and a screening of the vaunted LCFC! They say they have promises of "matching funds", but they don't mention for what amount. T'ain't no way they're raising ten million bucks.

[Alferd_Packer]

Maybe Mark Cuban can donate some money, after all he made so much off of LC:FC. . . oh, wait a minute. . .

[Alt+F4]

Spitfire had a good post on this a month or so back, he correctly pointed out that all the financing must be privately raised.

McKinney's Municipal Home Rule Law § 37][/B]
"No such petition for a proposed local law requiring the expenditure of money shall be certified as sufficient by the city clerk or become effective for the purposes of this section unless there shall be submitted, as a part of such proposed local law, a plan to provide moneys and revenues sufficient to meet such proposed expenditures."

And this is their financing plan…


NYC 911 Ballot Initiative Petition][/B]
The Commission shall have a budget not to exceed $10,000,000 per year for the conduct of its investigation and related activities. Financing shall be entirely drawn from private contributions. No public funds shall be requested or accepted. Four prominent citizens have pledged substantial matching fund contributions. In addition, pledges of specific contributions from wealthy private individuals are being obtained with payment subject to enactment of the Initiative by the voters of New York City. A substantial five figure seed money fund has been established as of January 2008, and a world wide internet fund raising campaign has been launched. Celebrity parties, concerts and other fund raising events and activities are also being planned to take place throughout the months of the Petition drive. Cumulatively, these sources will provide for the funding of the investigation.

Duh, the law clearly states that the financing has to be in place before a new local law can be certified, not the other way around. These people are seriously disingenuous. The website does say that only registered New York City voters can sign the petition but then adds:

NYC 911 Ballot Initiative][/B]
If you are not, please register by clicking here, downloading the PDF file, filling it out and mailing it in to the Board of Elections. Then you can download our petition.

Meanwhile the law clearly states:

McKinney's Municipal Home Rule Law § 37][/B]
"Qualified electors shall be deemed for this purpose to be voters of the city who were registered and qualified to vote in such city at the last general election preceding the filing of the petition.”

Therefore, only folks who were already registered to vote in November 2007 are qualified to sign the petition, not folks who are just registering to vote now.

These people need to be called what they really are – liars.

[BigAl]

Well, I read through it and was depressed at how few signatures they need - only 30,000. And if they are turned down by the City Council, they only need 15,000 more to over-ride. So they're shooting for 100,000 to be safe.

Ah, but..... I did find my own silver lining. The text of the petition has to contain the actual wording of the proposal and in the wording they state that this will require a 10,000,000 usd budget, but that NO GOVERNMENT FUNDS WILL BE REQUIRED. They will raise the money in the private sector.


As someone that has done petition drives for candidates for elected office, IMO, that is lots of signatures.

[SpitfireIX]

The proponents could have included some new or increased tax to pay for their investigation, but that would obviously make passage of the initiative even more problematic.

As I've pointed out before, I think that, besides the free publicity such a ballot question would generate, what truthers really want is the subpoena power. I presume that they imagine they'll be able to put Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al. on the hot seat and ask them any number of potentially embarrassing questions, and obtain access to all sorts of classified information as part of a fishing expedition for some sort of smoking gun-type proof of an "inside job."

The problem with this truther JAQ-off fantasy is that the federal courts are virtually certain to rule that a locally created commission can't subpoena the federal government or federal officials.

[SpitfireIX]

As someone that has done petition drives for candidates for elected office, IMO, that is lots of signatures.


I think they can probably do it if they enlist the aid of the "Jersey Girls" and other disgruntled family members. Most New Yorkers would not slam the door in the face of someone whose opening line is, "I lost my husband in the World Trade Center on 9/11; may I have just three minutes of your time?" Most peope would also not decline to sign the petition for a new investigation that (allegedly) won't cost the taxpayers anything, for fear of appearing unsympathetic.

[Myriad]

I think they can probably do it if they enlist the aid of the "Jersey Girls" and other disgruntled family members. Most New Yorkers would not slam the door in the face of someone whose opening line is, "I lost my husband in the World Trade Center on 9/11; may I have just three minutes of your time?"


Three minutes * 40,000 signatures (assuming an optimistic 75% valid) = 2,000 man-hours.

Three minutes * 60,000 signatures for override = 3,000 man-hours.

Three minutes * 100,000 signatures for override and a more realistic validity rate = 5,000 man-hours.

A sympathetic but non-fanatical volunteer will put in 10 hours. They need 200 to 500 of those.

A volunteer dedicated to the cause will do 100 hours. They need 20 to 50 of those.

Friends and friends-of-friends who promise to pass a petition around at work or in their social circle are unreliable. They need thousands of those.

(Or, of course, some combination of the above.)

And to get anywhere near a 3 signatures per minute rate, they'll have to be patient, personable, approachable people with non-threatening demeanors and persistent yet polite behavior.

Most of the people the truthers think are in the "sympathetic non-fanatical volunteer" category and will spend a day or two going door to door or canvassing in public, are probably actually in the "I'll pass a petition around among people I know" category. And most of the people the truthers think are in the "dedicated volunteer" 100-hour category are probably actually in the day-or-two-of-canvassing 10-hour category.

Hence, a petition drive also requires a large overhead of organizing and motivating other volunteers.

If they can pull it off I'll be impressed, and surprised. It can be done, but it takes actual no-kidding-around work.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[chillzero]

Several posts moved to AAH.

[SezMe]

Foolmewunz, I've heard the ad several times on my local (ETA: southern California) Air America station. Coincidentally, last Saturday the local Humanist group had Dan Barker, co-president of the FFRF (http://www.ffrf.org/) as speaker and I was lucky enough to get to sit with him at dinner after the talk. The FFRF has been doing some Air America ads and I asked him about it. He said they were happy with the results in spite of the fact that the ads were "very expensive".

So whoever is behind this has some considerable loose change (har-har) and enough organizational skills to get an ad produced and on the air. Conversely, it sure seems dumb to me to buy ads nationally when they surely could have placed the same ads on a local New York station.

[Minadin]

Well, I read through it and was depressed at how few signatures they need - only 30,000. And if they are turned down by the City Council, they only need 15,000 more to over-ride. So they're shooting for 100,000 to be safe.

Ah, but..... I did find my own silver lining. The text of the petition has to contain the actual wording of the proposal and in the wording they state that this will require a 10,000,000 usd budget, but that NO GOVERNMENT FUNDS WILL BE REQUIRED. They will raise the money in the private sector.

End of wild goose chase. They couldn't get more than 100 people to show up for 9/11/07 and a screening of the vaunted LCFC! They say they have promises of "matching funds", but they don't mention for what amount. T'ain't no way they're raising ten million bucks.

I had just read that and honestly I think that 30,000 is a lot more signatures than they will be able to get, but, you never know, some people will sign anything. I recall a "The Man Show" episode where Adam and Jimmy were getting women to sign a petition to "end women's suffrage".

[Uzzy]

So, let's say they get these signatures and the council buckles and holds a new, independent inquiry. Which will cost lots of money, which the US obviously has to spare right now, and inevitably re-open old wounds. But anyway, they hold this inquiry and summon experts to testify on the science, get evidence, call witnesses and do everything that the 9/11 commission did.

What exactly would the Troofers do when that returns exactly the same results as the original commission? Reality doesn't change just because you wish it to. It would be nice if it did, heck, I'd be slimmer and having fun with my girlfriend right now, but alas it can't be changed. No matter how many videos you make, how many tiny insignificant oddities you spot or how many people you convince that your position is the correct one.

The Reality is that 19 Al-qaeda terrorists hijacked 4 planes and crashed them into the World Trade Centre, the Pentagon and a field near Shanksville. Reality is also that I could do with dropping a few pounds and that my girlfriend is on the other side of the Atlantic.

There is Reality and there is the position of the Truth Movement, and never the two shall meet.

[DavidJames]

What exactly would the Troofers do when that returns exactly the same results as the original commission?
A subset of 9/11 CTists are not in it to "find the truth". They are in it for one or more of, money, ego, notoriety, rage against authority, politics, or simply general trolling. Keeping the topic alive keeps them "in business". For this group, I would expect they would prefer the same result so they can keep on keeping on. I think this describes many of the CTists on this forum.

[Alt+F4]

I had just read that and honestly I think that 30,000 is a lot more signatures than they will be able to get, but, you never know, some people will sign anything. I recall a "The Man Show" episode where Adam and Jimmy were getting women to sign a petition to "end women's suffrage".

I'm sure some people will sign anything (I usually do) but the 30,000 signatures they need must come from NYC residents who were registered to vote in the last general election. Their petition leaves that last part out, making all the signatures they collect subject to challenge.

I call this nothing more than a publicity stunt.

[DGM]

I'm sure some people will sign anything (I usually do) but the 30,000 signatures they need must come from NYC residents who were registered to vote in the last general election. Their petition leaves that last part out, making all the signatures they collect subject to challenge.

I call this nothing more than a publicity stunt.
Your absolutely right. Any serious campaign would know the rules and though encouraging people to vote is good they would not suggest you could still sign the petition by doing so.

[Alt+F4]

Your absolutely right. Any serious campaign would know the rules and though encouraging people to vote is good they would not suggest you could still sign the petition by doing so.

Yup. They are encouraging people to register to vote, which is great, then they ask for a signature on their petition, a signature that they must know is invalid for purposes of generating a new local law.

[nicepants]

If this new investigation is going to be funded by private individuals...I guess I'm not understanding the need for this to even be voted on. If they've got pledges for all of the money they need to do their investigation, what are they waiting for?

[DGM]

If this new investigation is going to be funded by private individuals...I guess I'm not understanding the need for this to even be voted on. If they've got pledges for all of the money they need to do their investigation, what are they waiting for?
The holy grail. Subpoena power!!!!!!!!!!
Don't ask me why.

[Alt+F4]

A volunteer dedicated to the cause will do 100 hours. They need 20 to 50 of those.

I doubt they have 20 to 50 of those. I'm around all the time, riding the subways and buses, shopping and never have I seen anyone with one of these petitions. Of course, if they had real money behind this scheme, they could hire professional signature gatherers.

I also think it's very disingenuous for these people to call this a "ballott initiative, as in this is a fight for direct democracy. Citizen initiated ballott initiatives are not permitted under New York State law, what these folks are trying to do is enact a new local NYC law which would establish their "commission".

[nicepants]

The holy grail. Subpoena power!!!!!!!!!!
Don't ask me why.

Ah, I guess that would make sense. So they can subpoena information like this:

Beginning with the transition period between the Clinton administration and your own, and ending on 9/11/01, specifically what information (either verbal or written) about terrorists, possible attacks and targets, did you receive from any source?

That screams "classified" to me....almost as loudly as it screams "800,000 pages"

[SpitfireIX]

Three minutes * 40,000 signatures (assuming an optimistic 75% valid) = 2,000 man-hours.

Three minutes * 60,000 signatures for override = 3,000 man-hours.

Three minutes * 100,000 signatures for override and a more realistic validity rate = 5,000 man-hours.

A sympathetic but non-fanatical volunteer will put in 10 hours. They need 200 to 500 of those.

A volunteer dedicated to the cause will do 100 hours. They need 20 to 50 of those.

Friends and friends-of-friends who promise to pass a petition around at work or in their social circle are unreliable. They need thousands of those.

(Or, of course, some combination of the above.)

And to get anywhere near a 3 signatures per minute rate, they'll have to be patient, personable, approachable people with non-threatening demeanors and persistent yet polite behavior.

Most of the people the truthers think are in the "sympathetic non-fanatical volunteer" category and will spend a day or two going door to door or canvassing in public, are probably actually in the "I'll pass a petition around among people I know" category. And most of the people the truthers think are in the "dedicated volunteer" 100-hour category are probably actually in the day-or-two-of-canvassing 10-hour category.

Hence, a petition drive also requires a large overhead of organizing and motivating other volunteers.

If they can pull it off I'll be impressed, and surprised. It can be done, but it takes actual no-kidding-around work.

Respectfully,
Myriad


I considered the time-commitment issue. If we're talking about a period of many months, I think the hours will be higher for a "dedicated volunteer." Further, many family members have the financial wherewithal to gather signatures full-time, if they chose to, due to their having received large settlements from the compensation fund. And if there really are people willing to put up some money for this commission, presumably at least some of those people would be willing to contribute to paying workers to gather signatures (say $1-2 per valid signature).

To be clear, I'm not saying that I expect this to happen. But I think it's quite doable if the truthers go about it intelligently. Of course, given their track record, how likely is that?

[Foolmewunz]

Several posts moved to AAH.

Great... now I look like I'm talking to someone from Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends! :spjimlad::woowoo:spjimlad:

[GreyICE]

As a resident of NYC... no one takes this **** seriously here. No really, its BS. I mean we have all the usual suspects preaching about it. But seriously, a good half this *********** city is crazy. All you need to see that is the Jesus freaks in the subway. This city breeds crazy.

[Foolmewunz]

As a resident of NYC... no one takes this **** seriously here. No really, its BS. I mean we have all the usual suspects preaching about it. But seriously, a good half this *********** city is crazy. All you need to see that is the Jesus freaks in the subway. This city breeds crazy.

Hey, I resemble that remark! (And I've got the snappy dollar ninety-five fedora to prove it.)

But that's why I don't think it would be that difficult for the truthatics to get the signatures necessary. We once set up a table at 8th St. and Sixth, beside the bookstore, and got a thousand signatures in about ten hours. Of course, we had about ten people working and it was for a very popular cause (Save the Nauga*, or something like that).

I think with a little bit of effort, there are enough New Yorkers who'd sign any petition backed by the Jersey Girls and tugging at the heartstrings of patriotism.


*Not really - I just always loved the Save the Nauga campaign.... I think it was for one of the Viet Nam mobilizations... I joined anything in that era.

[Thunder]

As a lifelong resident of NYC, I KNOW that no one really cares about this sillyness. I know many many people..and the only time folks ever talk about 9-11 conspiracies..is as a punchline.

this "ballot"..will go nowhere. soooo funny!!!!!

thanks 9-11 toothers..for another great laugh.

[GreyICE]

Hey, I resemble that remark! (And I've got the snappy dollar ninety-five fedora to prove it.)

But that's why I don't think it would be that difficult for the truthatics to get the signatures necessary. We once set up a table at 8th St. and Sixth, beside the bookstore, and got a thousand signatures in about ten hours. Of course, we had about ten people working and it was for a very popular cause (Save the Nauga*, or something like that).

I think with a little bit of effort, there are enough New Yorkers who'd sign any petition backed by the Jersey Girls and tugging at the heartstrings of patriotism.


*Not really - I just always loved the Save the Nauga campaign.... I think it was for one of the Viet Nam mobilizations... I joined anything in that era. Yeah, they're just going to end up like the people hanging out handing out flyers for whatever - pathetic, dragging up a few signatures. Or, Odin forfend, another group screwing up the transfer at Atlantic. Because the scientologists and the prayer people aren't enough down there. Actually, now that I think about it they will end up there... I hate Atlantic Ave so much...

[Jonnyclueless]

Well you know if they don't get enough signatures it simply means the US is more powerful than they thought.

[timhau]

From Alt+F4's post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3559649&postcount=9):

The Commission shall have a budget not to exceed $10,000,000 per year for the conduct of its investigation and related activities. Financing shall be entirely drawn from private contributions. No public funds shall be requested or accepted. Four prominent citizens have pledged substantial matching fund contributions. In addition, pledges of specific contributions from wealthy private individuals are being obtained with payment subject to enactment of the Initiative by the voters of New York City. A substantial five figure seed money fund has been established as of January 2008, and a world wide internet fund raising campaign has been launched.

OK. It's supposed to have a budget of up to $10 million a year, and they now have a "substantial five figure seed money fund". Do they realize that if you pile those zeros after the initial one, they all of a sudden count a lot? Every cent they have would need to turn into a dollar, and they in all likelihood still wouldn't have enough to keep it going for a single year?

[Foolmewunz]

From Alt+F4's post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3559649&postcount=9):



OK. It's supposed to have a budget of up to $10 million a year, and they now have a "substantial five figure seed money fund". Do they realize that if you pile those zeros after the initial one, they all of a sudden count a lot? Every cent they have would need to turn into a dollar, and they in all likelihood still wouldn't have enough to keep it going for a single year?

The important element is how the City Council treats the wording. Since it's their own wording and their own estimate of the maximum cost, I'd think they would have to show the actual money, not a bunch of hype about how they will raise the funds. They won't get to the question of over-riding the "veto" becuase the City Council will just not entertain the initiative and will never table it for a vote of approval since they've failed to produce the financing. (All "IMHO", of course.)

[Thunder]

the people of new york will not suppport this. the city council will not support this.

we...are not morons.

[DC]

the people of new york will not suppport this. the city council will not support this.

we...are not morons.

you still have no backup for those claims?
just your oppinion. you say, NOONE really cares in NY, as if you know them all :)

got any polls or something like that? just something to back it up?

[Redtail]

you still have no backup for those claims?
just your oppinion. you say, NOONE really cares in NY, as if you know them all :)

got any polls or something like that? just something to back it up?

Aside from out of 10 million people nobody has tried it until now?

[DC]

Aside from out of 10 million people nobody has tried it until now?

http://www.angus-reid.com/uppdf/NYT_October2k6.pdf

polls totaly contradicts the claims that all newyorkers hate the truth movement.
only 16% belive they got told the truth.....

[Redtail]

http://www.angus-reid.com/uppdf/NYT_October2k6.pdf

polls totaly contradicts the claims that all newyorkers hate the truth movement.
only 16% belive they got told the truth.....

And yet nothing was done until now... 84% believe the government is lying or suppressing information? What will these people say when (if) this initiative doesn't end up on the ballot?

[DC]

.... What will these people say when (if) this initiative doesn't end up on the ballot?

how can one answer that question?

[Thunder]

you still have no backup for those claims?
just your oppinion. you say, NOONE really cares in NY, as if you know them all :)

got any polls or something like that? just something to back it up?


How many people showed up in black t shirts on 9-11-07?

Maybe 50.

Question answered. The people of NY do not support 9-11 Denial.

[Thunder]

the only new yorkers i have known to support the 9-11 conspiracy theory were mentally disturbed and had issues with women.

[Thunder]

the only new yorkers i have known to support the 9-11 conspiracy theory were mentally disturbed and had issues with women.

[DGM]

how can one answer that question?
The trouble is how can you ask the original question. Why on earth would any organization have trouble getting a question on the ballot if they had 84% support. This makes no sense at all. You need to reevaluate your support believes.

[DC]

the only new yorkers i have known to support the 9-11 conspiracy theory were mentally disturbed and had issues with women.

troubles with woman? cant be truthers then, i learned here they all live in moms basement and never saw a woman in real life, mmmhh maybe thats the issue?

still do you have any polls that would backup your claims about the thaughts about truthers in NY?

[DC]

The trouble is how can you ask the original question. Why on earth would any organization have trouble getting a question on the ballot if they had 84% support. This makes no sense at all. You need to reevaluate your support believes.

who said they have 84% support? thats like Bush's your with us or against us.
and just cause someone does not support something does not mean they hate it.

[Redtail]

who said they have 84% support? thats like Bush's your with us or against us.
and just cause someone does not support something does not mean they hate it.


http://www.angus-reid.com/uppdf/NYT_October2k6.pdf

polls totaly contradicts the claims that all newyorkers hate the truth movement.
only 16% belive they got told the truth.....

So the 84% of New Yorkers who believe that they were lied to about the greatest act of mass murder on American soil don't support the truth movement? Why do you think that New Yorkers just don't care?

[DC]

[U]

So the 84% of New Yorkers who believe that they were lied to about the greatest act of mass murder on American soil don't support the truth movement? Why do you think that New Yorkers just don't care?

who sais they dont support the movement? how many have donated to them, and how many got active themself?

[Redtail]

who sais they dont support the movement? how many have donated to them, and how many got active themself?

If out of 84% of New Yorkers the "movement" (roughly 8.4 million) has to show as the tippy top of their success is, a few cut & paste movies, 50+ people protesting at Ground Zero, spamming of internet forums, and a few radio interviews?... I'd say They are those who says they don't support the truth movement.

[BigAl]

who sais they dont support the movement? how many have donated to them, and how many got active themself?

I can tell you that here on Staten Island, home to some large portion of the victims, the survivors, and several fire houses that were decimated on 9/11, that the "Truth Movement" has zero visibility.

Here in 2008, I still see newly-purchased cars that get new "in memory of...." rear-window stickers.

I've never seen a "Truth" bumper sticker here, if such exists. I'm afraid that a car carrying one might get vandalized by parties unknown.