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RobRoy
25th March 2008, 01:24 PM
Can anyone recommend a decent book on the enigmatic heroine Tomoe Gozen? I would prefer something more historical, and less Jessica Amanda Salmonson.

The Tale of the Heike doesn't really offer to much on her.

Also, is there anyone who can offer assistance with terms and forms of address from this time period?

Soseki
25th March 2008, 01:45 PM
I've not read it myself, but you could try Chieko Irie Mulhern, ed., Heroic with Grace: Legendary Women of Japan, (M.E. Sharpe, Armonk, NY), 1991, which has a chapter by Royall Tyler on Tomoe. The overall reviews of the book I've seen were somewhat mixed, but the chapter itself should have a reasonable overview of other sources in its bibliography, which might be of some use. I believe it also features a translation of the No play Tomoe, which could be of interest if you want to know a little more about her historical reception.

I could probably dig up some more info, but it would help to know (a) if you can read Japanese and (b) if you have access to JSTOR and other academic sources before making further suggestions. And as for terms of address and so forth, well, the standard academic excuse about it not being my period notwithstanding (I specialise more in 19th and 20th century work), let me know what you have and I'll see what I can do...

RobRoy
25th March 2008, 02:01 PM
I've not read it myself, but you could try Chieko Irie Mulhern, ed., Heroic with Grace: Legendary Women of Japan, (M.E. Sharpe, Armonk, NY), 1991, which has a chapter by Royall Tyler on Tomoe. The overall reviews of the book I've seen were somewhat mixed, but the chapter itself should have a reasonable overview of other sources in its bibliography, which might be of some use. I believe it also features a translation of the No play Tomoe, which could be of interest if you want to know a little more about her historical reception.

Thank you, that does help.

I could probably dig up some more info, but it would help to know (a) if you can read Japanese and (b) if you have access to JSTOR and other academic sources before making further suggestions. And as for terms of address and so forth, well, the standard academic excuse about it not being my period notwithstanding (I specialise more in 19th and 20th century work), let me know what you have and I'll see what I can do...

(a) No, I don't read Japanese and only knew a few words and phrases.
(b) Unless it's a free site, I don't have access.

Thank you much for the offer, that would help greatly. I'm working on a peice of historical fiction which centers on Tomoe Gozen and the events following the Battle of Awazu. I'll pull my manuscript and provide you a list of terms that I need or need verified. :D

Soseki
25th March 2008, 06:14 PM
Thank you, that does help.

No problem. Having searched around a bit more, unfortunately I find that most of what turns up seems to be in the vein you're keen to avoid or behind academic paywalls. For example, Teena Apeles' Women warriors : adventures from history’s greatest female fighters is, according to the jacket blurb,

"a playful celebration of women’s fiercest role models from around the world, from Apache warrior Lozen to Lakshmibai of India, Aung San Suu Kyi to The Powerpuff Girls."

It has a chapter on Tomoe, but I wonder how much use it would be. Perhaps more promising is Steven T. Brown's Theatricalities of Power: The Cultural Politics of Noh, (Stanford University Press, 2002) which seems to go into some detail about Tomoe, mainly in reference to the No play, though at $50+ you might find for the volume of info you get it's not worth the expense. You can (I think) preview some of the relevant parts at Google Books if you do a search for "Tomoe Gozen".

(a) No, I don't read Japanese and only knew a few words and phrases.
(b) Unless it's a free site, I don't have access.


Shouldn't be too much of a problem, but it does make things a little harder. There's an article on JSTOR by the aforementioned Steven Brown entitled "From Woman Warrior to Peripatetic Entertainer: The Multiple Histories of Tomoe" which I think would be ideal for your purposes, but you probably can't get to it without paying. However, if you're within striking distance of a public library, you might find that you can access JSTOR and other academic pay sites through their computers and get at it that way. It's probably worth making a few calls, anyway.

Thank you much for the offer, that would help greatly. I'm working on a peice of historical fiction which centers on Tomoe Gozen and the events following the Battle of Awazu. I'll pull my manuscript and provide you a list of terms that I need or need verified. :D

Glad to help. I'll do what I can - sounds like an interesting project.

fuelair
25th March 2008, 06:34 PM
Can anyone recommend a decent book on the enigmatic heroine Tomoe Gozen? I would prefer something more historical, and less Jessica Amanda Salmonson.

The Tale of the Heike doesn't really offer to much on her.

Also, is there anyone who can offer assistance with terms and forms of address from this time period?


No individual books on her - but a number that include her listed on Amazon - one includes a doll of her - but it's not one of the examination pages.

RobRoy
26th March 2008, 01:32 PM
No problem. Having searched around a bit more, unfortunately I find that most of what turns up seems to be in the vein you're keen to avoid or behind academic paywalls. For example, Teena Apeles' Women warriors : adventures from history’s greatest female fighters is, according to the jacket blurb,

Yeppers, I saw those as well, which is why I came to this forum to impose upon the learned. :)

It has a chapter on Tomoe, but I wonder how much use it would be. Perhaps more promising is Steven T. Brown's Theatricalities of Power: The Cultural Politics of Noh, (Stanford University Press, 2002) which seems to go into some detail about Tomoe, mainly in reference to the No play, though at $50+ you might find for the volume of info you get it's not worth the expense. You can (I think) preview some of the relevant parts at Google Books if you do a search for "Tomoe Gozen".

Thanks again. I was able to pick up Heroic with Grace from Amazon for about $9 with shipping. I'll see if I can't dig up a similar used copy of this book as well.

How serious should I take the No play in my background research of her as a character?

Shouldn't be too much of a problem, but it does make things a little harder. There's an article on JSTOR by the aforementioned Steven Brown entitled "From Woman Warrior to Peripatetic Entertainer: The Multiple Histories of Tomoe" which I think would be ideal for your purposes, but you probably can't get to it without paying. However, if you're within striking distance of a public library, you might find that you can access JSTOR and other academic pay sites through their computers and get at it that way. It's probably worth making a few calls, anyway.

I'm on the hunt now.

Glad to help. I'll do what I can - sounds like an interesting project.

If you're interested, could I also impose on you to read the manuscript when it gets to an acceptable point? My knowledge of ancient Japan is faulty at best, and I'd like to make certain I get as much right as I can.

RobRoy
26th March 2008, 01:49 PM
In all instances, I'm looking for the proper term in use at the time:

daimyo
Asahi Shogun
is -san the proper form of address for peers, or for lord to vassal? For example Imai-san.
is -sama the proper form of address for vassal to lord? For example Imai-sama?
toda - Would this title be appropriate in the formal address of vassal to lord? Along the same lines, is it proper to include this within a person's title, such as General toda Kanehira Imai?
gokenin - is this the proper term for what would later be called hatamoto to a lord, or is this only for the Shogun? If the latter, what is the term for a close advisor to a daimyo-level lord?
Is there a term for a master weapon-maker?
Would peasants have names, or would they simply go by their profession in whatever terms it took to make them individuals?

That should do for the bulk of my questions. I'll have to review my notes in detail to see if there are additional areas of concern.

Again, many, many thanks for your assistance.

Gagglegnash
26th March 2008, 02:46 PM
Hi

daimyo:
Baron, but actually more like the Icelandic(?) Filkeskonig(sp?) - Folks' King. Pretty much in absolute rule of his demesne, but owing fealty to the Emperor/Shōgun/Government.

Asahi Shogun:
Asahi is like rising or morning sun. Shōgun is the military ruler. As such, Id say it's probably, "military ruler of the rising sun." (Japan being Ni Hon,
http://www.df.lth.se/cgi-bin/j-e/FG=r/jap/%c6%fc%cb%dc?TR
the land of the "sun root," or rising sun.) ("Nippon," if you're a militarist.)

is -san the proper form of address for peers, or for lord to vassal? For example Imai-san.
It means sort of, "honorable," and is common form of polite peer-to-peer speech. Lord to vassal would probably omit it and use something like the masculine imperative tense of address. ("Hikawa! E ikiyo." "Lests go, Hikawa," lord to vassal, "Hikawa-san, e ikimashō ne." Same thing, among equals.)

Wakakushi no namu wa Hikawa desu! Well - ok - only in Japanese.

is -sama the proper form of address for vassal to lord? For example Imai-sama?
It's like, "Lord," and implies a position of respect and fealty, so yes, but not to, for instance, a lieutenant to a captain, even if the captain is a lord. The president of a company might be spoken of as, "Sony-sama," but not the owner of the corner grocery.

toda - Would this title be appropriate in the formal address of vassal to lord? Along the same lines, is it proper to include this within a person's title, such as General toda Kanehira Imai?
That sounds like a name to me.
Hail, Wikipedia, full of grits, blessed art thou among webapps, and blessed art thy fruit of the looms...
toda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toda)

gokenin - is this the proper term for what would later be called hatamoto to a lord, or is this only for the Shogun? If the latter, what is the term for a close advisor to a daimyo-level lord?
That's kind of Kamakura/Edo era stuff. I think that the gokenin are rather junior vassals of any lord, while hatamoto are direct retainers of the Shōgun.

Is there a term for a master weapon-maker?
See below.

Would peasants have names, or would they simply go by their profession in whatever terms it took to make them individuals?
Names were for, "important," people, and they showed their importance by changing them... often. Until the Meiji era, peasants were referred to by, "hey you," "front kaga man," "aft kaga man," "swordsmith," and like that.

Now, what the peasants called themselves is up for grabs. They weren't, "important," so no one that I know of wrote them down. (If you have a source, please fork it over.) However, folks being folks, it wouldn't surprise me if they all had names of a sort among their families and friends.

If you BECAME, "important," you got to take a name so people would know what was your stuff. Masamune Okazaki, for instance, so that people could tell which were his blades.

As such, I don't believe there was a word for a, "master swordsmith." If you became good enough at it to be an acknowledged master, the other, "important," people would know your name.

All answers are somewhere between honest, informed opinions and irresponsible, mad ravings.
Your mileage may vary.

RobRoy
26th March 2008, 04:44 PM
Hi

daimyo:
Baron, but actually more like the Icelandic(?) Filkeskonig(sp?) - Folks' King. Pretty much in absolute rule of his demesne, but owing fealty to the Emperor/Shōgun/Government.[snip]

I know what all these terms mean. My question was and remains if they are appropriate to the timeframe of Tomoe Gozen.

Thanks for the effort though.

Names were for, "important," people, and they showed their importance by changing them... often. Until the Meiji era, peasants were referred to by, "hey you," "front kaga man," "aft kaga man," "swordsmith," and like that.

This part is what I understood as well. On this, I just wanted confirmation beyond myself.

All answers are somewhere between honest, informed opinions and irresponsible, mad ravings.
Your mileage may vary.

Much thanks for the effort, sorry that I wasn't clear what I needed though.

Soseki
26th March 2008, 05:24 PM
Yeppers, I saw those as well, which is why I came to this forum to impose upon the learned. :)

I don't know if I qualify as 'the learned' (yet), but hey, we put the E in JREF, right?:cool:

How serious should I take the No play in my background research of her as a character?

If, as I assume, you're more interested in finding reliable or semi-reliable historical details about Tomoe, forget about it. No is as subject to poetic licence as any other form of literature, and historical accuracy comes a distant second to dramatic impact. This is why I would be a little wary of shelling out too much to get the Brown book; it might well provide a lot of info on how Tomoe was viewed in later centuries and which of the legends surrounding her were the most popular, but it may be somewhat sketchy on the historical details you want. As far as I can tell from Google Books and JSTOR, most of what's in Brown's book is in the JSTOR article anyway.


If you're interested, could I also impose on you to read the manuscript when it gets to an acceptable point? My knowledge of ancient Japan is faulty at best, and I'd like to make certain I get as much right as I can.

Be happy to. As I said, it's not my period, but I like to think I know more about it than the average layman...

Soseki
26th March 2008, 06:46 PM
OK, now for the terms. This might take some time; unfortunately, a lot of the terms you use aren't historically stable and don't always mean the same thing across the Kamakura, Muromachi, Warring States and Edo periods. I'm consulting my memory and the sources I have available at home right now, so let's take them as provisional until I can get to the library and find out in a little more detail. In some cases, I may know that the term you brought up isn't quite right but need a few more days to find out what the right term would have been. Sorry if this seems picky or if there's more detail than strictly necessary.

In all instances, I'm looking for the proper term in use at the time:

Right. Just for reference, let me clarify what the periods I'll use refer to:

Heian 794-1185
Kamakura 1185-1336
Muromachi 1336-1467
Warring States 1467-1603
Edo 1603-1868

daimyo

Daimyo in the sense of big semi-autonomous land-holding feudal lord is really late Muromachi onwards, and if we're talking about Tomoe Gozen (?1157-?1247), who's sort of late Heian-early Kamakura, it's a bit anachronistic. Military governors of land and fiefdoms at the time were referred to as Shugo, which, once we get into Muromachi, transitioned to Shugo-daimyo and then just daimyo. It kind of depends on what position the person you're writing about has; he might be a Jito (steward) if he is simply administering the land in a civil capacity.

Asahi Shogun

I'm not familiar with a shogun by that name - your invention? The title itself is appropriate depending on what time frame you're talking about; it had been awarded during Heian but had more or less fallen out of use until 1192, when Minamoto no Yoritomo became shogun. It won't come to refer to the military ruler of all Japan until much later, when Tokugawa Ieyasu is victorious at the Battle of Sekigahara in 1600; right during Tomoe's time, there's still an uneasy balance between the court/Emperor and military/Shogun centres of power.

is -san the proper form of address for peers, or for lord to vassal? For example Imai-san.

My instincts say probably not - I recall instances of -san being used as an honorific suffix in Edo literature, but the use of -san in that form is, I think, mainly a modern thing. I suspect a lord addressing a vassal would simply have used the vassal's name or rank/title, with no honorific suffix. I'd like to take a look at the original Japanese of the Heike to see if I can dig up some examples before giving a definitive answer, though.

is -sama the proper form of address for vassal to lord? For example Imai-sama?

See above, but I suspect a vassal addressing the lord would not have used the lord's name, no matter how polite the suffix. Again, I'd want to try to dig up some actual examples before giving a definitive answer.

toda - Would this title be appropriate in the formal address of vassal to lord? Along the same lines, is it proper to include this
within a person's title, such as General toda Kanehira Imai?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by toda - the only entry I can find in the dictionary is for a place name or surname. If it's a surname, then I think it might be used in the full name, e.g., in the Death of Atsumori part of the Heike (9:16, if you're interested), Kumagai announces himself as Kumagai no Jiro Naozane (though this is as part of the nanori pre-battle ritual). He seems to be addressed by his fellow warriors simply as Kumagai. I don't have a Japanese text with me, unfortunately, otherwise I might be able to give you a better idea of how the warriors talk to each other.

gokenin - is this the proper term for what would later be called hatamoto to a lord, or is this only for the Shogun? If the latter, what is the term for a close advisor to a daimyo-level lord?

I believe gokenin were specifically personal vassals of the shogun (in some cases blood relations), so I don't think the term would have been used for other lords. I think the general catch-all term for military retainers and vassals is kerai. I'm not quite sure what a close advisor to a daimyo-level lord would be called; I don't know if the Shugo of Tomoe's day were quite so powerful as to have specific titles for their advisors, since power was still basically concentrated in the court at Kyoto and the bakufu at Kamakura. A bit more detail on how you envision the person might help us get a better handle for what his title might be.

Is there a term for a master weapon-maker?

Not that I know of, but I'll have a look.

Would peasants have names, or would they simply go by their profession in whatever terms it took to make them individuals?

Yes, they'd have first names but no surnames (so you'd be Jubei the lamp maker, or whatever). Ordinary peasants didn't usually have surnames up until after the Meiji Restoration, when the prospect of keeping track of literally millions of Taros for tax purposes and military conscription became a bit daunting. Anecdotally, this is why there are so many Tanakas in Japan; they say the census-taker came by, couldn't be bothered to wait for the peasants to choose a surname and decided they'd be Tanaka, which means 'in the middle of a rice paddy'. I make no claims as to the truth of this story...

Soseki
26th March 2008, 09:36 PM
A quick update - I forgot that the Japanese text of the Heike is available online, so I had a browse through. Historical linguistics isn't really my thing, but I think it's fair enough to take one's cue from the way the characters talk to each other from what goes on in the Heike, since it's about as close to a record of the time as we can hope to get. Anyway, with regard to terms of address:

1) Higher status characters (the Emperor, Taira no Kiyomori, military commanders, etc) address their subordinates by their given name, without using any particular suffix. So when the Emperor addresses Taira no Tadamori in 1:1, he calls him simply "Tadamori".

2) Subordinates addressing higher status characters use a different form of syntax which comes across fine in the Japanese but which would be almost impossible to translate into English and probably make the text unreadable even if you could. As is the case in modern Japanese, they generally seem to avoid directly referring to the superior by any appellation, but there are a few examples. For example, when Gio in 1:6 is talking to Kiyomori she refers to him by his title (Lay Priest, or nyudo) plus the suffix -dono. When other characters refer to a higher-status character in the third person, similarly, they use that person's title plus -dono. I did not come across any examples of a subordinate addressing his superior by any part of his actual name. For one thing, the Emperor (even to this day) doesn't actually have a surname, and most of the characters in the first few books would all have the same surname (Taira) anyway.

For what it's worth, I don't think it's necessary when writing in English to translate the -dono; the flavour of the term could be adequately conveyed by using something like "My Lord", or when in the third person, "My Master, XXXX" or whatever. Both the English translations of the Heike I have do this, and I think it reads fine.

3) Names are only given in full (e.g. Kumagai no Jiro Naozane) when the narrative is introducing a particularly important character or during the nanori before battle when the character is supposed to introduce himself and when making a big show of one's illustrious lineage is considered the done thing. I didn't come across any instances of characters addressing each other with their full names, though.

RobRoy
27th March 2008, 09:04 AM
OK, now for the terms. This might take some time; unfortunately, a lot of the terms you use aren't historically stable and don't always mean the same thing across the Kamakura, Muromachi, Warring States and Edo periods. I'm consulting my memory and the sources I have available at home right now, so let's take them as provisional until I can get to the library and find out in a little more detail. In some cases, I may know that the term you brought up isn't quite right but need a few more days to find out what the right term would have been. Sorry if this seems picky or if there's more detail than strictly necessary.

No worries. This is exactly what I need.

Daimyo in the sense of big semi-autonomous land-holding feudal lord is really late Muromachi onwards, and if we're talking about Tomoe Gozen (?1157-?1247), who's sort of late Heian-early Kamakura, it's a bit anachronistic. Military governors of land and fiefdoms at the time were referred to as Shugo, which, once we get into Muromachi, transitioned to Shugo-daimyo and then just daimyo. It kind of depends on what position the person you're writing about has; he might be a Jito (steward) if he is simply administering the land in a civil capacity.

I looked up Shugo, and apparently this was instituted at the time of Tomoe Gozen to help capture her leige, Minomoto no Yoshinaka. I suppose I can fudge the title's timeline a little to make it apply, as I haven't been able to find anything else that works.

I'm not familiar with a shogun by that name - your invention?

No, that's the "full" title of the position as I understood it. The Asahi Shogun. It was not intended as a name, I just wanted to make certain I was using the right title.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by toda - the only entry I can find in the dictionary is for a place name or surname.

I had understood toda to mean "lord" or "my lord" as a general form of address from vassal to superior. You've already addressed that vassals would use the position, so perhaps when the characters are speaking, I can have them use that. I was hoping for a catch-all, but clearly it's not that simple.

Did Tomoe Gozen hold any specific titles?

I know that "gozen" is an honorific (though I'm not clear on what it means). Would it be considered her title, then?

Everything else has been very helpful.

Soseki
27th March 2008, 02:13 PM
I looked up Shugo, and apparently this was instituted at the time of Tomoe Gozen to help capture her leige, Minomoto no Yoshinaka. I suppose I can fudge the title's timeline a little to make it apply, as I haven't been able to find anything else that works.

Yeah, I think you might have to fudge it a little. My sources say that the title of Shugo was created in 1185 by Minamoto no Yoritomo. The Shugo wasn't really a feudal lord in the same way that the Warring States and Edo daimyo were; at least initially, he did not in any real sense own the land he was responsible for and was basically there to keep order and punish troublemakers ('constable' is probably the best way to translate the term). He was also emphatically prohibited from dipping into land revenues and collected taxes (this was the Jito(=steward)'s responsibility). However, in practice the prohibition didn't stop them from doing so, and given a monopoly on military power they were able to do pretty much what they wanted, especially once the court and bakufu had weakened to the point where they couldn't stop them. This accounts for the shugo-> shugo-daimyo -> daimyo transition, basically. I suppose if you want a character who's similar to what an Edo or Warring States daimyo would be in power and military strength, you could have him be a Minamoto warlord in eastern Japan.

I haven't heard anything about the title and role being created specifically to capture Minamoto no Yoshinaka, but would be interested to hear more. My understanding was that it was a way for Yoritomo to keep order after his victory in the Genpei wars, and also for him to reward his vassals, since Yoritomo gained the right to appoint shugo and jito in due course.

No, that's the "full" title of the position as I understood it. The Asahi Shogun. It was not intended as a name, I just wanted to make certain I was using the right title.

Ah, gotcha. The full title is Sei-i taishogun, or 'barbarian-subduing generalissimo'.

I had understood toda to mean "lord" or "my lord" as a general form of address from vassal to superior. You've already addressed that vassals would use the position, so perhaps when the characters are speaking, I can have them use that. I was hoping for a catch-all, but clearly it's not that simple.

I think you might be referring to tonosama, which means does mean 'my /one's lord', but that mostly comes into currency during the Edo period. I don't know if there's a catch-all term for late Heian/Kamakura; I'll see what I can come up with.

Did Tomoe Gozen hold any specific titles?

That I don't know for sure. According to 9:4 in the Heike she was one of Kiso no Yoshinaka's leading commanders, so it's possible she may have had a military title along the lines of Taisho (i.e. General) or something similar, but the text doesn't say for sure. She almost certainly did not possess court rank or any of the titles that would go with it; people who did were usually important enough that they were written about in memoirs, diaries, official documents etc and so we know a fair amount about them. Tomoe's somewhat hazy status strongly suggests she didn't have any official noble titles (though see below).

I know that "gozen" is an honorific (though I'm not clear on what it means). Would it be considered her title, then?

I don't think it's a formal title, but it's normally translated into English as "Lady" as in "Lady Tomoe", "Lady Hotoke", "Lady Gio" and so forth.

The Japanese means literally 'the honorable one in front of me', and in the context we're talking about it seems to be used to mean something like 'the honorable lady X', though that doesn't necessarily imply she's a noble. Let me paraphrase the main points from Steven Brown's article, which addresses this in a footnote.

1) Tomoe is never referred to as Tomoe Gozen in any variation of the Heike itself (she's simply Tomoe, I think), but seems to have been widely referred to by that name in later centuries.

2) Gozen is, variously:
(i) an honorific used towards members of the nobility
(ii) a 2nd-person pronoun used to address one's wife or someone else's
(iii) an honorific pronoun used during the Edo period to refer to a daimyo or his wife
(iv) an honorific suffix used throughout the medieval period to refer to gods, members of the nobility, and various types of female entertainer (c.f. Gio and Hotoke in 1:6 of the Heike).

3) So there are two possibilities; one, that she's referred to as Gozen because of her status as brother of Imai Kanehira and lover of Kiso Yoshinaka (though if so, why would she not be referred to as Tomoe Gozen in the Heike itself?), and two, that the title came to be associated with her much later, after her name had come to be associated with female performers through her presence in the No play and other dramas.

I realise this is probably way more information than you need, but I think it kinda helps to have a bit more context for these things.


Everything else has been very helpful.

Glad to hear it. Let me know if you have any further questions or if any of the above requires clarification.

RobRoy
28th March 2008, 10:24 AM
Yeah, I think you might have to fudge it a little.

Such is the way of a writer! :D

I haven't heard anything about the title and role being created specifically to capture Minamoto no Yoshinaka, but would be interested to hear more.

It was mentioned in passing on Wikipedia, but I can't find any other source for it, and so, as always with Wikipedia, I'm leary of using it in that context.

Ah, gotcha. The full title is Sei-i taishogun, or 'barbarian-subduing generalissimo'.

Perfect. That's what I needed.

I think you might be referring to tonosama, which means does mean 'my /one's lord', but that mostly comes into currency during the Edo period. I don't know if there's a catch-all term for late Heian/Kamakura; I'll see what I can come up with.

Perhaps. I'm not certain where I picked it up, now that I'm thinking of it.

That I don't know for sure. According to 9:4 in the Heike she was one of Kiso no Yoshinaka's leading commanders, so it's possible she may have had a military title along the lines of Taisho (i.e. General) or something similar, but the text doesn't say for sure.

In this case, what would be proper for her title and names? Noting below that she was Imai Kanehira's sister, would she be Taisho Kanehira Tomoe?

. . . as brother of Imai Kanehira . . .

This I didn't know, even though I was aware of Kanehira, and he figures into the story that I'm telling (though briefly).

I realise this is probably way more information than you need, but I think it kinda helps to have a bit more context for these things.

Not at all, you are helping me a great deal.

Soseki
28th March 2008, 01:47 PM
It was mentioned in passing on Wikipedia, but I can't find any other source for it, and so, as always with Wikipedia, I'm leary of using it in that context.

I just took a look at the Wikipedia article on shugo. The info that is there is basically accurate, but it's very vague on what exactly shugo were and did, as opposed to other roles. The article says that the position was instituted to capture Minamoto no Yoshitsune, not Yoshinaka, who as you probably know was Yoritomo's brother (it's hard to keep track when almost everyone has the same surname, I realise). It doesn't cite a source for this and I'm a little hazy on why instituting the position would help to capture Yoshitsune; as I recall, he escaped into the wilds of northern Japan, which weren't fully under the control of the court or bakufu at the time anyway. I might have a look at the books cited as sources and see if I can work out what it's referring to.

In this case, what would be proper for her title and names? Noting below that she was Imai Kanehira's sister, would she be Taisho Kanehira Tomoe?

Kanehira is the given name and Imai the family name, so Tomoe (if in fact she was Kanehira's sister and shared the same family name) would be Imai Tomoe. My guess is that her full title would be Taishogun Imai Tomoe; I'm basing this on 9:8 in the Heike, which opens by naming a male warrior who holds the rank of general in similar fashion. It's possible that women wouldn't have been addressed that way, but there are very few women characters in the Heike, still less ones who held military rank, so I don't have any sources to hand to check with. I think this is about as accurate as you'll get. In any case, you're presumably writing in English, so it's not always necessary to strictly follow the Japanese format for people's names so long as it's clear who they are.

This I didn't know, even though I was aware of Kanehira, and he figures into the story that I'm telling (though briefly).

I just realised I wrote 'brother' above when I meant 'sister'. :blush:

Well, it's by no means certain since we don't really know who exactly she was. According to the Brown article, one source, the Genpei seisuiki, claims that she was the daughter of Nakahara Kaneto and sister to Higuchi no Jiro Kanemitsu, Imai no Shiro Kanehira and Ochiai no Goro, and Kiso no Yoshinaka's foster sister and lover. However, another source, the Genpei tojoroku, says that she was Higuchi no Jiro Kanemitsu's mistress, not sister, but she might even have been his (Kanemitsu's) daughter, according to yet another source. My own view is that since the sources don't seem to be mutually contradictory on the possibility of Tomoe being Kanehira's sister, it would be very difficult to complain on grounds of historical accuracy if you do portray them as siblings.

Gagglegnash
28th March 2008, 01:57 PM
Hi

Wow. This is fun!

Hey! When your Nō is done, who's going to write your Kyōgen? :D

Soseki
28th March 2008, 02:24 PM
Hey! When your Nō is done, who's going to write your Kyōgen? :D

Surely the real question is, "What part of Nō don't you understand?" :duck:

Gagglegnash
28th March 2008, 03:16 PM
Hi
Surely the real question is, "What part of Nō don't you understand?" :duck:

(Writing that down for possible future Kyōgenesque use....)