Female Engineers

[SRW]

I worked in the electronics industry for over 22 years and noticed that there were not many female engineers. In all that time I think we only hired 5 or 6, and none stayed very long. Ether they would move on to another company or into marketing.

I know that loosing them to marketing really upset their managers, because he would always have to re-distribute the work they were doing. In all that time no male engineers left for marketing, although many left for other companies. By the way engineers usually dislike marketing because the make up stuff and blame the engineers for not making it work. Any one else have experience with female engineers?

[arcticpenguin]

I know several. My sister took some years off to have a few kids, but is back working as an engineer. Some of the others I haven't seen for a while, so don't know if they are still in the field or not.

[Phil]

Never seen any female engineers in all the train rides I've taken.

[Brown]

The number of female engineers is increasing, but women are still far from parity with men. Whenever I can, I encourage women who have an aptitude for mathematics to become engineers.

When I went to kindergarten, about half the class was girls and half was boys. This ratio stayed true in grade school and all the way through high school. Aside from sex-separated classes such as gym and shop, the half-girls, half-boys ratio held true in all my classes.

When I got my first college degree, about half the people in all my classes were women and about half were men. This was true even of math and science classes. The only classes that were all men were physical education classes. Then in law school, about half the people in all my classes were women and about half were men. (Just a few years earlier, law students were overwhelmingly male.)

So I went all through school, got two college degrees, and had roughly equal representation of the sexes all through school, except for classes that were intentionally single-sex.

And then I went to Engineering school. At first, most of the classes had about half women and about half men. When I focused on Electrical Engineering, however, that changed. Several of my classes were all male. Advanced electronics, all male. Advanced analog circuits, all male. Various control systems, all male. Every other class, overwhelmingly male.

The "stag" nature of the classes was not by requirement, but by choice. Few women wanted to be electrical engineers. They seemed to prefer mechanical and biomedical engineering. I asked several of my female friends why this was so, and the answer was that they simply prefer mechanical and biomedical engineering to electrical engineering.

[SRW]

Originally posted by Brown
The "stag" nature of the classes was not by requirement, but by choice. Few women wanted to be electrical engineers. They seemed to prefer mechanical and biomedical engineering. I asked several of my female friends why this was so, and the answer was that they simply prefer mechanical and biomedical engineering to electrical engineering.

Well that would explain it our engineers were EE's or IE's (industrial engineers).

[Nyarlathotep]

Up until a year and a half ago, I worked for a company that manufactured parts for airplanes. We had more female engineers than male (3 female, 2 male). Whether that was chance or if the company made a special effort to hire women, I couldn't say.

[SRW]

Originally posted by Phil
Never seen any female engineers in all the train rides I've taken.

They are the ones with the good looking cabooses

[Professor Frink]

I had the same experience in college - in computer science classes there might be one or two females in a class of 25. I had a friend from high school who was one of the (relative) few in the school and she was a very pretty girl. She was absolutely inundated with date requests from the other students since she was not only attractive, but one of few available. I felt sorry for her - we would sit in a computer lab doing work and she would get constant attention from the pasty-white boy engineering students. (she did end up marrying one of them though, so I guess all is well that ends well.)

So ladies, if you're looking for an academic path to meeting lots of boys, come on down to the computer science department. They're waiting for you!

The interesting thing about this is that now that I'm in the workforce, the male/female split is much smaller. 2 of 5 technical people on my team are female. At my last job, 1 of 4 was. That's a tremendous increase in percentage from college where it was more like 10 to 1.

Frink

[BTox]

In our company ~ 75% of the Chem Engineers are women.

[uneasy]

There have always been more men in my technical education and work.

However, I worked for a while in the telephony area (telephone switches, call routing, computer control of telephone functions). I looked up one day in a meeting of around a dozen people and realized I was the only man. I don't know why, but there seem to be a lot of women in this field. It's technical, but not exactly computer work.

I have a theory on this that may be a crock, but it's what I've seen. People's personalities tend match their work. People who do database work tend to be concerned about keeping control over what they have. They have the data, and they control access to it. People who work in telephony or telecommunications tend to be concerned most about interactions among things. They are happier to communicate with other people to get things done.

I think women might be more drawn to this type of work because it's very communication oriented.

[bpesta22]

The average female is in the 16th % of the male distribution for math and spatial skills.

Perhaps this explains it???

[belinda]

Originally posted by bpesta22
The average female is in the 16th % of the male distribution for math and spatial skills.

Perhaps this explains it???

Exactly where did you get this little bit of statisical trivia? :confused:

[bpesta22]

Originally posted by belinda


Exactly where did you get this little bit of statisical trivia? :confused:

Actually, it's scientific fact-- one of the most replicated effects in psychology.

See:

Halpern, D. (1997). Sex differences in intelligence: Implications for education. American Psychologist, 52, 1091-1102.




It's testosterone versus estrogen, btw

[belinda]

Errm...I don't know what research you have done into it...but whilst on some IQ tests males may outperform females in spatial and mathematical reasoning, (and v/versa for language) ( and not forgetting the HUGE range of individual differences) a lot of studies show that the REASON this happens is due to the gender sterotype and to academic expectation ( on behalf of both the student and the teacher). Eg Academic Self-Concept (http://www.aare.edu.au/97pap/yeuna157.htm)

[belinda]

Also - I don't think you mean the 16th percentile - that would mean that on average females score as well as the bottom 16% of males.

[dissonance]

Originally posted by belinda
Errm...I don't know what research you have done into it...but whilst on some IQ tests males may outperform females in spatial and mathematical reasoning, (and v/versa for language) ( and not forgetting the HUGE range of individual differences) a lot of studies show that the REASON this happens is due to the gender sterotype and to academic expectation ( on behalf of both the student and the teacher). Eg Academic Self-Concept (http://www.aare.edu.au/97pap/yeuna157.htm)

There's also volumes of research on stereotype threat. A google search ought to get the basics of that interesting phenomena. Look for Claude Steele or Steven Spencer as authors in particular.

[bpesta22]

Originally posted by belinda
Also - I don't think you mean the 16th percentile - that would mean that on average females score as well as the bottom 16% of males.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean-- look at the article I cited, by the premier researcher in the field (who happens to be female).

The male / female difference on math and spatial tasks is 1 standard deviation, putting the average female at just the 16th% of males.

There are verbal tasks where the difference is as big, but in the other direction-- favoring females.

You really should check out the article-- the differences have little to do with socialization, or "academic self concept" (blech! what journal is that crap published in?) but testosterone versus estrogen, and sex differences in brain anatomy.

Just some interesting examples:

1) The size of the math difference is biggest when the female is on her period-- where estrogen levels are highest.

2) Older males given testosterone also show a boost in math / spatial skill.

3) Females exposed to too much androgen while developing in the womb (i.e., CAH females):

a) score higher than normal females on math and spatial tasks,

b) prefer male toys (i.e., gi joe) over female toys (i.e. dolls)

and,

c) are more likely to be lesbian.

4) as kids, females originally do better in math. Once puberty kicks in (i.e. male increase in testosterone levels) males do better by a lot, and the difference remains throughout the lifespan.

5) Perfect scores on the SAT math section are 100 to 1 by males (iirc).

Verbal Stuff:

Although the male brain on average is bigger, the female corpus collosum (the bundle of fibers on the top / center of the brain that let the two hemispheres communicate) is bigger on average in females.

Further, females-- with high probability-- process language in both hemispheres; whereas right handed males use the left hemisphere just about exclusively.

6) Females do much better in reading comprehension, verbal fluency and synonym generation measures

7) 3 x 5 times as many males stutter, or get dyslexia.

I can go on, but the evidence that the difference is biologically based is outstanding.

Further, it even explains why men on average make more money than women on average.

When controlling for occupation type, the earnings gap disappears for women in their 20's and 30's, and shrinks to only 4% for older females.

B

[belinda]

:mad: Calm...Breath deep...Ok now I can type... if you want me to read the paper, give me the link. I don't have quick and easy access to that particular journal. Otherwise I can not comment on the paper.

It is not as clear cut and dried as you make out.... I admit I did my degree in psych a few years ago, but there are still contradictory papers to what you are suggesting. Don't forget, a few decades ago the published work was proving the black's were intellectually inferior to whites and that this was biologically based as well. (NOTE to mod - I DON'T support this view).

[bpesta22]

Originally posted by belinda
:mad: Calm...Breath deep...Ok now I can type... if you want me to read the paper, give me the link. I don't have quick and easy access to that particular journal. Otherwise I can not comment on the paper.

It is not as clear cut and dried as you make out.... I admit I did my degree in psych a few years ago, but there are still contradictory papers to what you are suggesting. Don't forget, a few decades ago the published work was proving the black's were intellectually inferior to whites and that this was biologically based as well. (NOTE to mod - I DON'T support this view).


Well, it's real science published in an A journal, so I'm not sure I can find a link to it on the net. I will check though.

I have a Ph.D. in cognitive psych, for what it's worth, and it is that cut and dried.

You could change my mind simply by showing me the data, but good luck in that regard. I think the only more replicated effects in all of psychology is either cognitive slowing with age or the fact that males are more aggressive than females (uhm, guess what causes this one too :)

Don't get me started on the black white thingy either ;)

[belinda]

We could go forever one-upping each other (my study is better than your study)etc. Eg. This quote is out of a report I found just by googling for gender differences and maths. The studies referred to have been published in reputable, peer reviewed journals.

"A study (Hamilton and Snow) of tests in biology and astronomy taken by 1100 17 year olds showed no format effect when comparing constructed format and MCQs, but males scored better on questions involving spatial or visual content. Interestingly, a short lesson on spatial-mechanical reasoning eliminated the effect. This could indicate a difference related to experience rather than an inherent gender traits. This is also suggested by a study by Byrnes et al. (1997) in which maths items that showed a large gender difference in American students showed no such difference in Chinese students. "

Please don't tell me that American male students somehow have more testosterone than Chinese male students when compared to their female counterparts.

I admit there have been gender differences found in testing math and spatial skills, what I disagree with is the biological basis of such a huge difference (1SD according to your study). Old nature vs. nurture debate. (plus of course biases in the testing used
;) )

[renata]

Bpesta, I only took basic psych as part of my undergrad degree in bio several years back, so I have no references or expertise. :)However, I remember reading that some speculated that the reason women deteriorate in math skills after puberty is unequal teaching and expectations. In particular, I remember reading (and I have no links at all, so perhaps it is all feel good bs) that
1. boys tend to be called on more and encouraged in math courses
2. boys tend to take more math courses than girls , women tended to be steered more towards humanistic disciplines
3. When girls from all girl schools were compared with boys , their math abilities were equal to them, and much better than girls from co-ed schools who were intimidated by the boys and somewhat picked over by the teachers. This last one is frequently used in favor of all girl schools still.

Is there any truth in that at all? I assume those things would have been checked for and controlled for in the studies you mentioned.

[dissonance]

Originally posted by bpesta22



Well, it's real science published in an A journal, so I'm not sure I can find a link to it on the net. I will check though.

I have a Ph.D. in cognitive psych, for what it's worth, and it is that cut and dried.

You could change my mind simply by showing me the data, but good luck in that regard. I think the only more replicated effects in all of psychology is either cognitive slowing with age or the fact that males are more aggressive than females (uhm, guess what causes this one too :)

Don't get me started on the black white thingy either ;)

Have you looked at the stereotype threat lit? That's published in real journals (JESP, JPSP). Basically, when in a situation where they might be judged in terms of the negative stereotype about women's math abilities, women don't do as well as men on math tests. When given the exact same test, but it's described in such a way as to make the stereotype irrelevant, women do just as well as men. It's an interesting literature (in the interests of full disclosure, it's one of my areas of research).

Although if you're a coggie, maybe you don't consider social psych a real science ;) (There's very little love lost between the social and cognitive divisions in my department, although that has more to do with space allocation politics than theoretical differences...)