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Third Eye Open
28th March 2008, 03:56 PM
I just watched this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LHoyB81LnE) video on youtube, which shows an elephant painting a so called 'self portrait' which is really a pretty simple drawing of an elephant holding a flower. Still I was pretty impressed

Does anyone here know much about elephants? Are they really this smart, or do you think it is more likely that this particular elephant has been trained to reproduce this specific picture only?

I knew elephants were smart as far as animals go, but are they this smart?

Gord_in_Toronto
28th March 2008, 04:52 PM
They are smarter than creationists but not as smart as evolutionists. :eye-poppi

Rob Lister
28th March 2008, 04:52 PM
impressive training.

skeptigirl
28th March 2008, 05:17 PM
That is incredibly impressive. How can you assume what training occurred first, Lister? And even so, it is incredibly impressive. The elephant is clearly being extremely deliberate in it's actions.

Wow, just wow.

skeptigirl
28th March 2008, 05:26 PM
Hey, when in doubt, look for more information.

Elephant 'self-portrait' on show (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5203120.stm)They include "self-portraits" by Paya, who is said to be the only elephant to have mastered his own likeness.

Paya is one of six elephants whose keepers have taught them how to hold a paintbrush in their trunks. They drop the brush when they want a new colour.

Mrs Khunapramot, from Newington, said: "Many people cannot believe that an elephant is capable of producing any kind of artwork, never mind a self-portrait.

"But they are very intelligent animals and create the entire paintings with great gusto and concentration within just five or 10 minutes - the only thing they cannot do on their own is pick up a paintbrush, so it gets handed to them.

"They are trained by artists who fine-tune their skills, and they paint in front of an audience in their conservation village, leaving no one in any doubt that they are authentic elephant creations."

World: Asia-Pacific - Elephants brush up on new skills (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/240527.stm)The academy hand-picks the elephants for their artistic talent and encourages the former beasts of burden to express their inner selves on the canvas.

So, trained, yes, whether they are aware it is a self picture, yet to be determined.

skeptigirl
28th March 2008, 05:29 PM
More...

Self portrait by an elephant is exhibited at Edinburgh (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=396749&in_page_id=1770)The elephants are taught to paint by a special trainer, who teaches them to hold a brush with their trunks and copy certain objects, including flowers, trees, and even the Thai flag.

The giant creatures, are taught to grab hold of the brush in their trunks and then pass it back to their keepers when they want to swap colours.

Experts believe that the elephants memorize the image which they can then 'paint by rote' over and over again.

It is not known if the elephants are aware they are painting themselves.

skeptigirl
28th March 2008, 05:32 PM
Here is a third example, again by the same elephant.

Elephant Self Portraits Go On Display (http://news.napier.ac.uk/press/articles/article_10319.htm)“But they are very intelligent animals and create the entire paintings with great gusto and concentration within just five or ten minutes – the only thing they cannot do on their own is pick up a paintbrush so it gets handed to them. They pass the brush to their trainer when they want to use a new colour and they know when they are finished because they set their paintbrush down.

“They are trained by artists who fine-tune their skills, and they paint in front of an audience in their conservation village, leaving no-one in any doubt that they are authentic elephant creations.”

Only one of the elephant artists, named Paya, has mastered self-portraits but the few he paints are usually put on display at the conservation village.

Tanja
28th March 2008, 05:37 PM
My thought was that the man who is in few instances visible to the left of the elephant is somehow guiding the elephant as to what to do, but I am not sure how.

Third Eye Open
28th March 2008, 05:40 PM
...."Experts believe that the elephants memorize the image which they can then 'paint by rote' over and over again."....

That's what I kind of thought, its more of a positive reinforcement kind of thing than the elephant actually knowing what it is doing.

skeptigirl
28th March 2008, 05:40 PM
From the news articles it is pretty clear the paintings are done in public and it suggests the ooohs and wows of the observers are genuine. I think in order to guide the trunk, you'd have to hold it close to the brush.

skeptigirl
28th March 2008, 05:43 PM
Yes, 3rd eye, there is rote teaching involved according to the news reports. But this is the only elephant that can make these kind of paintings. That suggests there is more here than simply mindless repetitive movements.

I am not saying we can say the elephant knows, just that I am also not sure we can say it does not know.

Third Eye Open
28th March 2008, 05:49 PM
Yes, 3rd eye, there is rote teaching involved according to the news reports. But this is the only elephant that can make these kind of paintings. That suggests there is more here than simply mindless repetitive movements.

I am not saying we can say the elephant knows, just that I am also not sure we can say it does not know.

I am of the opinion that elephants are not mindless creatures.

But I think it would be much more interesting to see what the elephant would paint if just given a canvas and brush with no 'coaching' involved.

From the article snipits you posted (thanks!) it seems to me that this particular painting was one that had been practiced specifically to be performed in front of crowds.

I wonder what the elephant would paint if just left to it's own ideas...

shadron
28th March 2008, 05:52 PM
They are smarter than creationists but not as smart as evolutionists. :eye-poppi

That's because they can remember back farther than 6000 years (unless, of course, god implanted those earlier memories to fool them into sin).

Yes, the elephant's drawings are remarkable. I wonder what they fetch in London? Ah - OK, about $500. I hope she gets some top quality feed out of it.

skeptigirl
28th March 2008, 05:55 PM
The rest of elephant paintings are devoid of images.

It would be interesting to study this one elephant and see what it would paint if given the choice.

BTW, this is one of my all time favorite YouTube videos up there with the Battle at Kruger (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM&eurl), thanks.

liverleef
28th March 2008, 06:07 PM
Elephants? Are you talking about the African animal or Rosie O'Donnell?

Badabing!

Jeff Corey
28th March 2008, 06:36 PM
It is interesting that the elephant paints a red flower with green leaves, since they are red-green color blind (deuteranopes). But the trainer chooses which color brush to hand the elephant. I suspect that there is a lot more cuing from the trainer than we see on the viddie.

Foolmewunz
28th March 2008, 10:58 PM
Yes, 3rd eye, there is rote teaching involved according to the news reports. But this is the only elephant that can make these kind of paintings. That suggests there is more here than simply mindless repetitive movements.

I am not saying we can say the elephant knows, just that I am also not sure we can say it does not know.

Been There. Done That.
This is the only elephant that can do THAT painting. The exhibition in Chiang Mai consists of a number of elephants doing various paintings. Each has been trained to do a particular painting. One does the Thai flag, one does a house, one does a tree.

You can find several YouTube videos of this same elephant doing other variations of the same "self-portrait" (which some idjit is claiming is evidence that the elephant is painting pictures of OTHER elephants).

It's training. Very impressive training. But training, nonetheless.


ETA: Sorry - the "BTDT" was not meant to be snarky. I meant it literally. I've seen this exhibition. (sounded like I was being a smartass when I re-read my post)

skeptigirl
28th March 2008, 11:16 PM
I was under the impression one elephant painted all those things and none of the others painted any symbols, Foolme. I'll reread the links.

I see from the gallery of paintings for sale that the other elephants paint flowers and trees and that flag.

http://www.thai-fine-art.com/Elephant_Art.htm

Still, being trained to do something doesn't tell us what the elephants think of the images they have learned to make. Again, there is no evidence right now either way. Many things intelligent animals do have often been dismissed out of hand but the research shows that is an incorrect human-centric view of the animal kingdom. Only humans use tools, nope, only humans have morals, nope, only humans have language, nope... and so on. While one can argue that animal language is missing some syntax found in human language or animal tools have xyz limits and so on, the fact is humans have a tendency to forget our mental abilities evolved and they did not spring up out of the blue, all at once, with no precursor animal capabilities. Technology has taken off, yes, but our capacity to think did not originate with a couple nucleic acid substitutions in our DNA. Evolution is a slow process.

Foolmewunz
29th March 2008, 01:43 AM
I was under the impression one elephant painted all those things and none of the others painted any symbols, Foolme. I'll reread the links.

I see from the gallery of paintings for sale that the other elephants paint flowers and trees and that flag.

http://www.thai-fine-art.com/Elephant_Art.htm

Still, being trained to do something doesn't tell us what the elephants think of the images they have learned to make. Again, there is no evidence right now either way. Many things intelligent animals do have often been dismissed out of hand but the research shows that is an incorrect human-centric view of the animal kingdom. Only humans use tools, nope, only humans have morals, nope, only humans have language, nope... and so on. While one can argue that animal language is missing some syntax found in human language or animal tools have xyz limits and so on, the fact is humans have a tendency to forget our mental abilities evolved and they did not spring up out of the blue, all at once, with no precursor animal capabilities. Technology has taken off, yes, but our capacity to think did not originate with a couple nucleic acid substitutions in our DNA. Evolution is a slow process.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you on wanting to know what that elephant is thinking when it's painting. (I was just clarifying that particular question.)

"Ho hum, another day of doing this stick and color thing so I get some sugar cane."

Or

"If I get a little more depth in it I'm sure I can get it to look like my sister Nanu."

The park is one of the "good guys". In Thailand, mahouts cannot find work for their elephants in the rural areas any longer and they have taken to begging in Bangkok and the other cities, which is the only way to feed the poor animals, but that's no life for an elephant. Every time I see one, I give the mahout a few thousand baht.

These efforts to turn the elephants into "green tourism" may be their only hope. There's a program to re-release Thai elephants into the wild, and into a national preserve, but it's not far enough along, yet.

At any rate, the "park" where these artistically inclined elephants "create" is a commercial venture. The more reputable institutes also have painting elephants but they're not trained as heavily, and none of their works are quite so representative. (It was kind of a tacky cheap show. Next time I'm up in the area, I'm checking out the National Elephant Institute. You can adopt(sponsor) your own elephant. How cool is that?)

If you check the "art" on this link, everything's in the abstract. These pics come from elephants at the NEI in Thailand, where they don't train the animals to do particular paintings (but do train them as to how to hold a brush, etc...). http://www.elephantartgallery.com/

a_unique_person
29th March 2008, 04:25 AM
Been There. Done That.
This is the only elephant that can do THAT painting. The exhibition in Chiang Mai consists of a number of elephants doing various paintings. Each has been trained to do a particular painting. One does the Thai flag, one does a house, one does a tree.

You can find several YouTube videos of this same elephant doing other variations of the same "self-portrait" (which some idjit is claiming is evidence that the elephant is painting pictures of OTHER elephants).

It's training. Very impressive training. But training, nonetheless.


ETA: Sorry - the "BTDT" was not meant to be snarky. I meant it literally. I've seen this exhibition. (sounded like I was being a smartass when I re-read my post)

I have seen a display of elephants painting in Thailand, and I wasn't very impressed. They are amazing animals, but it wasn't hard to tell that they weren't very happy with having to jump through the hoops as they had to. I felt sorry for them.

Foolmewunz
29th March 2008, 06:05 AM
I have seen a display of elephants painting in Thailand, and I wasn't very impressed. They are amazing animals, but it wasn't hard to tell that they weren't very happy with having to jump through the hoops as they had to. I felt sorry for them.

I don't know if they were unhappy - they appeared to be concentrating real hard, and weren't exactly trumpeting with delight, but I'm not sure what a happy elephant looks like, actually. It's a task for them, I'm sure. Their muscle control in their trunk is excellent, but it usually works in much broader sweeping movements. Ever notice that when they're reaching for food they often miss left, miss right, then center on the target? How difficult to get that little paintbrush onto the precise spot on a piece of paper? So I just reckoned they were working hard at something.

The other elephants at the particular park mentioned seemed fit and well treated. But like I said in my follow-up post, they it was a pretty commercial and tacky show. I didn't think to be greedy and see how much they'd sell one of the paintings for. Reading up on the NEI and elephant painting today I noticed that the pics sell for about three hundred bucks - and those are the abstracts. There have been charity auctions where they've fetched thousands. If I get back up there, I'll try to buy one and we can auction it for one of the TAM or Scholarship auctions. It'd make a good "link" back to an interesting conversation or two on animal intelligence (some of my favorite threads here).

a_unique_person
29th March 2008, 06:21 AM
I don't know if they were unhappy - they appeared to be concentrating real hard, and weren't exactly trumpeting with delight, but I'm not sure what a happy elephant looks like, actually. It's a task for them, I'm sure. Their muscle control in their trunk is excellent, but it usually works in much broader sweeping movements. Ever notice that when they're reaching for food they often miss left, miss right, then center on the target? How difficult to get that little paintbrush onto the precise spot on a piece of paper? So I just reckoned they were working hard at something.

The other elephants at the particular park mentioned seemed fit and well treated. But like I said in my follow-up post, they it was a pretty commercial and tacky show. I didn't think to be greedy and see how much they'd sell one of the paintings for. Reading up on the NEI and elephant painting today I noticed that the pics sell for about three hundred bucks - and those are the abstracts. There have been charity auctions where they've fetched thousands. If I get back up there, I'll try to buy one and we can auction it for one of the TAM or Scholarship auctions. It'd make a good "link" back to an interesting conversation or two on animal intelligence (some of my favorite threads here).

There was one particular elephant, that had the hardest task to do, that didn't want to do it. They 'discplined' it till it did. The paintings were sold, which seemed to be the point of the exercise. I didn't feel at all inclined to buy one.

quarky
29th March 2008, 07:45 AM
elephants have a large brain. There is likely a purpose for such an investment. I think it is more than a simple brain wt./ body wt. ratio. Rhinos manage a similar life with a tiny brain.

andyandy
29th March 2008, 04:18 PM
It was in the news (and on here) about an elephant who had passed the self-awareness test. Obviously to what extent the mirror test actually tests self-awareness, and to what extent self-awareness equates to intelligence are contested, but it does certainly seem that elephants are one of the top animal intellects... Not as clever as the orangutans mind :)

Here is the you tube clip

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George
29th March 2008, 04:34 PM
If elephants are so smart then how come they keep getting caught in those fishing nets huh.

INRM
29th March 2008, 07:19 PM
Elephants are probably a lot smarter than many would actually think.

INRM

portlandatheist
29th March 2008, 07:45 PM
There is also evidence that elephants mourn their dead (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1497634.htm)
What I'm curious is if elephants ever differentiate between just any dead elephant vs a former relative or herd member

skeptigirl
29th March 2008, 10:29 PM
There is also evidence that elephants mourn their dead (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1497634.htm)
What I'm curious is if elephants ever differentiate between just any dead elephant vs a former relative or herd memberI believe they do. Refreshed my false memories there.

Well it looked like they did from the sounds of this:

new research suggests that they may, like humans, be able to recognise their own kind among the dead. (http://www.sussex.ac.uk/press_office/media/media513.shtml)

But then the actual story said this: * Elephants showed a much stronger interest in ivory than in the other objects, including the elephant skulls;
* They also showed a stronger preference for elephant skulls over other "non-elephant" objects, including the skulls of other large mammals such as rhinos and buffalo;
* Elephants showed interest by sniffing then feeling the elephant skulls - and especially the ivory - with the trunk, then gently rolling or stroking with their feet;
* Elephants did not, however, show greater interest in the skulls of close relatives over those of other elephants.

Of course we don't know from this if these bones were no longer recognizable. Would a human know a skull was that of uncle Joe's if it were not in the place they buried him? Only if he had a special gold tooth or something else that was recognizable. Think I'll keep looking.

skeptigirl
29th March 2008, 10:45 PM
Here are a couple interesting anecdotes (http://www.natureinstitute.org/pub/ic/ic5/elephant.htm) for what they are worth: [In India an] elephant was following a truck and, upon command, was pulling logs out of it to place in pre-dug holes in preparation for a ceremony. The elephant continued to follow his master's commands until they reached one hole where the elephant would not lower the log into the hole but held it in mid-air above the hole. When the mahout [elephant driver] approached the hole to investigate, he found a dog sleeping at the bottom; only after chasing the dog away would the elephant lower the post into the hole. (3, p. 137)

[In South Africa] it was observed that an elephant, after digging a hole and drinking water, stripped bark from a nearby tree, chewed it into a large ball, plugged the hole, and covered it with sand. Later he removed the sand, unplugged the hole, and had water to drink. (3, p. 137)

Many young elephants develop the naughty habit of plugging up the wooden bell they wear around their necks with good stodgy mud or clay so that the clappers cannot ring, in order to steal silently into a grove of cultivated bananas at night. There they will have a whale of a time quietly stuffing, eating not only the bunches of bananas but the leaves and indeed the whole tree as well, and they will do this just beside the hut occupied by the owner of the grove, without waking him or any of his family. (1, p.78)


The same source noted they use tools to reach places to scratch that they cannot reach with their trunks. That's a step up from just rubbing your bum on a tree trunk.

plumjam
6th April 2008, 10:09 PM
Well, I came across that video independently tonight, and was mightily impressed. So I did a search here.

This thread could do with an elephant sized BUMP so more people get to see the video.

plumjam
6th April 2008, 11:43 PM
Dumbo Bumpo

Kahalachan
7th April 2008, 02:54 AM
Even if it was positively reinforced, it's pretty precise painting. So it's impressive regardless. Unless the person was holding the trunk and guiding it.

I think they are up there not too far below the dolphins and great apes. I think the African grey parrot was really high too.

Edit: Yeah it was the African grey parrot. I saw the full version of this vid in one of my psych classes.

R6KvPN_Wt8I

plumjam
7th April 2008, 04:09 AM
Wow, impressive parrot.

Dr Adequate
7th April 2008, 05:24 AM
IIRC, the elephants can only produce representational art when the mahout has a hand on one tusk. It's a variant of the Clever Hans Effect.

Michael C
7th April 2008, 05:45 AM
The elephant who paints the "self-portrait" is Hong, the star painter of the Mae Taeng Elephant Camp on Thailand. Vanda Harvey, an artist from London, went there to see if she could "liberate her from her day job of painting other elephants!". See the article here (http://www.tvthrong.co.uk/news/extraordinary-animals-friday-january-4). She found out that Hong is guided by her trainer, standing beside her with a hand on a tusk "almost like a technician working with robotic arms".

Vanda wanted to see what would happen when Hong painted without being guided by her trainer:

She starts her pupil off with some charcoal, while Hong’s trainer steps back to avoid influencing her. “It’s amazingly intense for me, watching Hong draw,” says Vanda, “because I didn’t know what was going to happen.” After the charcoal comes paint, and a two-metre canvas is quickly filled with sweeping, colourful, almost joyful strokes. The next day, Vanda supervises Hong as she completes a series of canvases to be taken back to London. Vanda is confident that the paintings will stand up against competition from human artists: “There are far worse paintings hanging in galleries all over the world as we speak,” she says. “Probably some with far less emotion in, and far less tension – and certainly far less joy!”

I hope that Hong is really enjoying herself.

wahrheit
7th April 2008, 06:18 AM
My (uneducated) guess when I saw this video last week was that the trainer was more involved than the video shows, but it is very impressive nonetheless.

zeusbheld
7th April 2008, 06:22 AM
I am of the opinion that elephants are not mindless creatures.

But I think it would be much more interesting to see what the elephant would paint if just given a canvas and brush with no 'coaching' involved.

having been to art school...

i am of the opinion that H. sapiens are (generally) not mindless creatures...

but i found it not very interesting to see what the average human would paint if given just a canvas and brush with no 'coaching' involved.

zeusbheld
7th April 2008, 06:24 AM
ps i'm currently living in Thailand; as soon as i get a chance i'll visit the Mae Taeng elephant camp. it's up near Chiang Mai and i may be going up there in the next few weeks. if anything interesting comes of it i'll post here.

zeusbheld
7th April 2008, 07:02 AM
elephants have a large brain. There is likely a purpose for such an investment. I think it is more than a simple brain wt./ body wt. ratio. Rhinos manage a similar life with a tiny brain. they are quite social, too. that usually has a lot to do with animal intelligence (chimps like us, for example), from what i understand. i don't think the paintings say much about their intelligence either way, except that they're clearly a lot smarter as individuals than, oh i don't know, a gecko. i suspect however that if ant pheromone trails could show up as colored inks, and a canvas were placed so that they had to walk over it to fulfill their various tasks, anthills could produce some pretty decent abstract art.

Gord_in_Toronto
7th April 2008, 07:13 AM
IIRC, the elephants can only produce representational art when the mahout has a hand on one tusk. It's a variant of the Clever Hans Effect.

There is some doubt about the authenticity of the degree of the elephant's actual input/ involvement in the creative process being expressed by the regulars over on the Usenet group alt.folkelore.urban -- camera cuts, fake trunks and pre-tracing being suggested.

YMMV & etc.

zeusbheld
7th April 2008, 07:13 AM
Yes, 3rd eye, there is rote teaching involved according to the news reports. But this is the only elephant that can make these kind of paintings. That suggests there is more here than simply mindless repetitive movements.

I am not saying we can say the elephant knows, just that I am also not sure we can say it does not know.

from what i know of the camp, it was set up by two Russian artists, Komar and Melamid.

every article i've seen cites that the elephants are screened for 'talent'. incidentally most humans suck at painting regardless of how much time they spend in art school.

even if it's rote learning it most likely requires a certain amount of

the whole self portrait thing reeks of anthropomorphization, however. even *if* Miss Hong or mr. Paya know they are painting elephants.

'traditional' art schools are mostly rote learning btw. i'm halfway convinced that a great deal of human behavior, including the post that seems to imply Thailand is in Africa in order to feebly set up his dig at Rosie O'Donnell, are examples of the Clever Hans Effect.

as a gimmick and tourist attraction elephant painting is magnificent, and benefits the elephants. and it's a LOT easier than logging. or starving. incidentally, most humans aren't happy with the things they have to do in order to get by either.

unlike many inept human painters, the elephant painters' abstract work seems to use the entire surface, and have a sense of composition and negative space. this could be rote training, but many humans are too stupid to understand these simple concepts (at least based on what i've seen painted in art schools).

i'd be interested in knowing more about the elephant's sensory world. my understanding is that they have rather poor vision and, as someone mentioned, are red-green colorblind. possibly they see *some* color? extrapolating a bit looking at the abstract paintings by elephants, they still look somewhat composed if one considers them to be as colorblind as, say, my dad. even if they're as colorblind as my cat, the elephants do seem to show some sense of light-vs-dark as a compositional elephant.

rote training or not, they DO paint better than the average human, in my opinion. this does not, however, imply much either way in terms of how aware they are of what they're doing.

Michael C
7th April 2008, 07:53 AM
There is some doubt about the authenticity of the degree of the elephant's actual input/ involvement in the creative process being expressed by the regulars over on the Usenet group alt.folkelore.urban -- camera cuts, fake trunks and pre-tracing being suggested.

YMMV & etc.

There are no fake trunks or camera cuts, nor is pre-tracing involved. What is clear from watching other videos and reading the report that I already mentioned is that there is always a trainer standing next to the elephant. The trainer guides the elephant's movements by applying pressure to a tusk. If the trainer does not intervene, the elephant may still paint, but the result will be abstract.

I don't think the elephant is conscious that the drawing actually depicts an elephant. If she was, she'd probably try to do something like it even when the trainer wasn't guiding her.

AkuManiMani
7th April 2008, 12:03 PM
I find it hard to believe that an elephant wouldn't have the basic intelligence to make a crude drawing of an elephant. Now if they had insects etching pictures of other insects then I might be a lil impressed -- But an elephant -- big deal. /shrug

I think most of the shock at witnessing such a thing comes more from human arrogance than anything else; we, as a species, just find it hard to believe that any creature can even begin to approach us in cognitive ability o.<

the whole self portrait thing reeks of anthropomorphization, however. even *if* Miss Hong or mr. Paya know they are painting elephants.

While I agree its a bit premature to assume that the elephant intended the painting to be a portrait of itself I don't think it would be anthropomorphizing to believe that the elephant knew what is was drawing. I find it hard to reconcile the view that humans are the product of evolution but yet are placed on such a high pedestal that no other animal is comparable to us in cognitive ability.

CurtC
7th April 2008, 03:04 PM
An elephant can paint a self-portrait, just like horses can solve math problems.

Soapy Sam
7th April 2008, 06:03 PM
I was once with a safari group who chased a herd of elephants off a favoured campsite. The herd leader was clearly reluctant to leave.
Later that evening she returned and pushed a tree down across the road entrance to the site.
It may be anthropomorphism on my part, but it felt a lot like we had been given the finger.

Gord_in_Toronto
7th April 2008, 06:29 PM
I was once with a safari group who chased a herd of elephants off a favoured campsite. The herd leader was clearly reluctant to leave.
Later that evening she returned and pushed a tree down across the road entrance to the site.
It may be anthropomorphism on my part, but it felt a lot like we had been given the finger.

Should that not be "given the trunk"? :)

Jeff Corey
7th April 2008, 07:39 PM
There are no fake trunks or camera cuts, nor is pre-tracing involved. What is clear from watching other videos and reading the report that I already mentioned is that there is always a trainer standing next to the elephant. The trainer guides the elephant's movements by applying pressure to a tusk. If the trainer does not intervene, the elephant may still paint, but the result will be abstract.

I don't think the elephant is conscious that the drawing actually depicts an elephant. If she was, she'd probably try to do something like it even when the trainer wasn't guiding her.

Facilitated Communication in the Elephant? Guiding the tusks, huh. That's why the vid doesn't show the trainer.
It wouldn't work in Alabama, where the Tuscaloosa.

dann
8th April 2008, 12:06 AM
Oh, I absolutely agree with you on wanting to know what that elephant is thinking when it's painting. (I was just clarifying that particular question.)

"Ho hum, another day of doing this stick and color thing so I get some sugar cane."
Or
"If I get a little more depth in it I'm sure I can get it to look like my sister Nanu."

It took evolved homsaps several thousand years to invent depth and perspective. How many drawings by fashion designers have depth? So how about:
'Anyone can paint a picture of my sister Nanu or one of the other fat-bottomed bitches stuffing their mouthes with hay all day long, but how about this slim cutie? Hasn't she got legs?!!!'

This elephant is on the verge of inventing elephantine anorexia!

ErkDemon
10th April 2008, 09:24 AM
The BBC just showed a documentary about tigers made of footage shot by elephants.

I know, I know ... I immediately had an image of an elephant holding a domestic camcorder up to its eye and squinting at the screen, and that's not really the case here.

But they did train them to find tigers and plant cameras nearby disguised as logs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7312511.stm