making a list of hypocracy

[Marc]

In my debate against Mormons last month I brought up the hypocracy of religions in that when science agrees with their teaching they will tout that as proof of their beliefs. When science says something that goes against their beliefs then it's "science doesn't know everything" " there are higher truths" and so on.

But of course that is not the only way religions can be hypocritical. So I was thinking we might come up with a list of the various ways different religions are guilty of the H word. Note I am speaking about religions, not individuals. Entire threads could be devoted to Robertson and Fallwell I'm sure, but lets not get into the trap of pointing out the faults of the individual and extrapolating it onto the group.

[Professor Frink]

Maybe this is the same thing you're thinking of, but the "God works in mysterious ways" argument has always rattled me.

In the new testatment, there are references to those who pray openly and in public with loud voices, and today's religious leaders seem intent on following the tradition of loud voices and accusations. Not only Falwell/Robertson but any religious leader trying to make a point about anything.

Someone once pointed out that Mother Theresa was very much against poverty, and then ironically (is irony the same as hypocracy?) forced anyone who worked for her to take a vow of poverty.

Frink

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Frink said:Someone once pointed out that Mother Theresa was very much against poverty, and then ironically (is irony the same as hypocracy?) forced anyone who worked for her to take a vow of poverty.
And apparently kept a lot of the donations in her bank account.

~~ Paul

[Marc]

Well that would come under the hypocracy of an individual, but we can include the money thing. "easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to get into heaven" yet many religions have huge cathedrals and own large amounts of property.


so we got

1. embrace/reject science depending on if it comes in line with their theology

2. bible teaches to pray in privacy, yet many christians promote public prayer, even seek to enforce it (prayer in school, national day of prayer)

3. bible teaches the rich not likely to get into heaven, blessed are the meek, yet large religious organizations are quite wealthy and hardly meek (catholic church trying to get politicians to obey their tennants on gay rights, christian coalition)

[whitefork]

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Almost all Christian religions have quite a large stake in the kingdoms of this world.

[Starrman]

Christian: God saved me from the fiery wreck, how wonderous of him to send an angel to save me!

Person: What about the family of 5 in the other car, who burned to death when their gas tank ruptured?

Christian: The Lord works in mysterious ways!

[ernestocastillo]

In the theme of religious hypocracy, can anyone provide a good resource for direct quotations from the bible that fly in the face of fundamentalists. I have a copy of Michael Shermer's "How to Debate a Creationist" which I have really enjoyed putting to use. What I now would like to find is a list of good 'zingers' to toss in front of biblical literalists at those appropriate moments. You know, something that will leave them flustered and saying, "good question, I'll get back to you"

[whitefork]

Ask them how it was possible for the earth to exist before the sun and stars.

Ask them how it's possible for pi to equal 3.

[Marc]

Well you could check out Skeptic's Annotated Bible (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/). It uses the King James bible, favored by fundamentalists. Can use the indexes to try and find some good stuff, like look up the violence index for counters to the 'benevolent' god. False Prophecies index and Contradictions should help with inerrency claims.

[Marc]

Originally posted by Kullervo
Ask them how it was possible for the earth to exist before the sun and stars.

Ask them how it's possible for pi to equal 3.

saw a lame excuse for the pi equal to 3 issue recently. Don't remember where, but the argument claimed the 10 cubits was the diamiter of the entire bath, but the 30 cubits was only the circumfrence of the inside of the bath, not the outer rim which adds an additional handspan. The guy did some quick calculations by adding his own handspan (usual fallacy of asigning greater numeric accuracy than can be justly claimed) and magically it worked out to Pi perfectly.

[jan]

Originally posted by Marc


saw a lame excuse for the pi equal to 3 issue recently. Don't remember where, but the argument claimed the 10 cubits was the diamiter of the entire bath, but the 30 cubits was only the circumfrence of the inside of the bath, not the outer rim which adds an additional handspan. The guy did some quick calculations by adding his own handspan (usual fallacy of asigning greater numeric accuracy than can be justly claimed) and magically it worked out to Pi perfectly.

In a discussion with two of Jehovah's witnesses a couple of years ago, one found the same excuse in one of his books (I assume they have a book with all the possible things a skeptic might ask them). He clearly didn't understand the answer and could only quote it word-by-word. I tried to explain him that it is very convenient to measure the outer circumference of the bath with a string, but really inconvenient to measure the inner circumference with a string, so I would expect that the 30 cubits would be the outer circumference, if anything. If the 10 cubits happens to be the smaller diameter, so much the worse. He didn't get it, and kept repeating what his book told him.

But perhaps the value of π changes over time, and was smaller those days...

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Marc


saw a lame excuse for the pi equal to 3 issue recently. Don't remember where, but the argument claimed the 10 cubits was the diamiter of the entire bath, but the 30 cubits was only the circumfrence of the inside of the bath, not the outer rim which adds an additional handspan. The guy did some quick calculations by adding his own handspan (usual fallacy of asigning greater numeric accuracy than can be justly claimed) and magically it worked out to Pi perfectly.

I really have a problem ( but not so big as my problem with Bible thumpers in general .. ) with pushing the:

" The Bible says pi = 3 ... " claim...

The verses in question do not specify that we are dealing with a perfectly circular object, just a " molten sea " that had a circumference three times it's diameter...


The Bible is so full of other crap, making a big deal out of the pi thing, seems a waste of time.. Give em' this one...

[whitefork]

Ok, I'll concede the Pi issue.

All you really have to do, I guess, is ask someone claiming to be a biblical literalist why they get to choose which of God's laws to obey and which to disregard.

I ask Paul Bethke about that when he first showed up. He stated that he obeyed ALL the biblical laws, from both testaments.

I didn't believe him, but it was quite refreshing to hear someone say it.

[Professor Frink]

Originally posted by Diogenes
The Bible is so full of other crap, making a big deal out of the pi thing, seems a waste of time.. Give em' this one...

One of my favorite sayings from math classes in college was

"2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2."

So maybe the bible argument is

"Pi = 3 for sufficiently small values of Pi."

Sounds brainy!

Frink

[Dorian Gray]

A really devastating one is:

How was the death of Jesus Christ in any way a 'sacrifice', when he returned from death fully formed and knew he would? Doesn't 'sacrifice' mean giving something up? What did Jesus give up? A week?

One for bigots is:

The ROMANS killed Jesus Christ, not the Jews. But even if the Jews DID kill Jesus, it was God's WILL that Jesus die. So why do you hate people for performing God's will?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
A really devastating one is:

How was the death of Jesus Christ in any way a 'sacrifice', when he returned from death fully formed and knew he would? Doesn't 'sacrifice' mean giving something up? What did Jesus give up? A week?

One for bigots is:

The ROMANS killed Jesus Christ, not the Jews. But even if the Jews DID kill Jesus, it was God's WILL that Jesus die. So why do you hate people for performing God's will?

Shucks, even Jesus asked God to spare him ( talk about cold feet ), but God said no...

Imagine the internal dialogue : " Now, do I really want to save everyone from their sins ?
Grabs an olive branch and starts plucking leaves..
" I love them, I love them not.. "

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
A really devastating one is:

How was the death of Jesus Christ in any way a 'sacrifice', when he returned from death fully formed and knew he would?

I'll bet it hurt. :D

[Professor Frink]

Originally posted by Dorian Gray

One for bigots is:

The ROMANS killed Jesus Christ, not the Jews. But even if the Jews DID kill Jesus, it was God's WILL that Jesus die. So why do you hate people for performing God's will?

Not sure why you expect Christians to make sense on this one when they don't make sense on any of the rest of it.

The idea, of course, is that the Jews said they wanted Jesus to die over another crucifixion candidate, and that tipped the scales. The Romans asked for a vote and carried out the wishes of the crowd.

Frink