I Give Up! Evolution Really Is a Sham!

[Wowbagger]

Guess what, folks. I've been debating creationists on the Internet for a long time now. And, I am just about to give up! No matter how much evidence I try to bring to them, they always manage to dismiss it with some simple logic I never considered before, and they never seem to learn anything!
In fact, I have probably learned a lot more from them, then they have from me. I am starting to feel as though the Theory of Evolution, that we all know and love, is seriously flawed, in many respects, after all!

First of all, there is this whole "Life from Life" argument. We have only ever seen life forms emerge from other life forms. The best our experiments can do is yield parts of life forms, which is clearly not the same thing. Perhaps we might never be able to create life forms in the lab, until we understand what the essence of life really is. What if we find it, only to realize that evolutionary origins are just not possible?! If there was a Special Creation event, in the beginning, we certainly can't recreate that in a lab. So, how can we claim evolution is true science, when we can't even test the opposing idea?!!

And then there is "Irreducible Complexity". I used to think that evolution was enough to explain how the wide variety of complex structures we see in life came about. But, now I am not so sure. We certainly can't apply evolution to non-living complex structures, like geological features. How can we be so sure it applies to every living creature? What if there are phenomenal exceptions waiting to be discovered? Without having an empirical framework in place, how are we supposed to determine if something is Intelligently Designed, after all?

Finally, I would like to talk about applicability: The claim that Evolution helps us fight diseases and all that. Now, scientists tend to be really smart people. Can't they just figure out how all these diseases work, by studying them really hard?! Is it really important to assume humans and monkeys and slime molds all share some common ancestor in order to, for example, cure AIDS? Evolution makes scientists look stupid and incompetent. If a theory cannot be applied to scientific endeavors, why even bring it to the table? Especially, in such a forceful way?

There are people, on both sides, trying to turn this into a political, moral issue, and/or Hollywood issue. Is the Theory of Evolution really so weak, that it can be threatened by these things? That is utterly pathetic! Intelligent Design is even stronger than that! And, ID is gaining ground: More and more people, even some very smart ones, are recognizing that Creationism is "so true", that they don't even bother questioning it, anymore! It's blatantly obvious to them. Why can't scientists, who are supposed to examine every idea, see this?

And if you don't think I am serious about this post, think about it this way: We have just entered the second quarter of 2008: That means the 150 year anniversary of Darwin's Origin of Species is rapidly approaching. And, in all this time, we still don't have all the answers to how everything evolved! I think it's utter foolishness for me to continue in this futile endeavor!

It is time for all of us JREFers to concede: Selling evolution, as some sort of all-powerful truth, is a lie and a sham! Who is with me?

[AudioFreak]

In that past 150 years, how much have we learned about evolution and the universe through science? And how much has society grown in knowledge from creationism or religion? Your exasperation reminds me of a comic...

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[sol invictus]

That means the 150 year anniversary of Darwin's Origin of Species is rapidly approaching. And, in all this time, we still don't have all the answers to how everything evolved!

More than 300 years since Newton's Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, and we still don't have all the answers to how gravity works.

Time to abandon it in favor of intelligent falling (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512)!!

[Fnord]

Thanks a lot, Wowbagger! :nope:


And just when I was about to give up the whole Bible thing, too...

[AudioFreak]

Maybe it's just April Fool's day on the east coast already?

[Arkayik]

2000 (give or take several-hundred) years, and we're still waging war over The Bible (at least one of them anyways, maybe more)... Sheesh, time to give up on that one...

In any case, well said Wow, good to get that out of your system. You see, when you have doubts about skepticism, this is healthy. The roots of science must be watered with the ichor of the odd theory now, and then...

I predict, that now you've named the Jungian source of your super-conscious issues with Darwin, you will go ahead and solve the problems yourself. We'll just sit back and watch the chrysalis opine.... or not...

cheers.

[Gate2501]

Maybe it's just April Fool's day on the east coast already?

Either April Fools joke OR Radrook has HAX0RD him.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Finally, I would like to talk about applicability: The claim that Evolution helps us fight diseases and all that. Now, scientists tend to be really smart people. Can't they just figure out how all these diseases work, by studying them really hard?! Is it really important to assume humans and monkeys and slime molds all share some common ancestor in order to, for example, cure AIDS? Evolution makes scientists look stupid and incompetent. If a theory cannot be applied to scientific endeavors, why even bring it to the table? Especially, in such a forceful way?


And if you don't think I am serious about this post, think about it this way: We have just entered the second quarter of 2008: That means the 150 year anniversary of Darwin's Origin of Species is rapidly approaching. And, in all this time, we still don't have all the answers to how everything evolved! I think it's utter foolishness for me to continue in this futile endeavor!

It is time for all of us JREFers to concede: Selling evolution, as some sort of all-powerful truth, is a lie and a sham! Who is with me?



Whoa, torns, whoa... hold on, buddy. Since when did science have all the answers all at once? We dig, slowly and patiently and uncover them and repostulate theories based on new evidence. Calm down. Sit down. I think you've been arguing with creationists for too long.

So it's almost 150 years since Darwin's Origin of Species and we still don't have all the answers! Uh oh..... And where is it written that we had a deadline to uncover all of the incognites? So if we don't do it after 150 years have pased, we just forget about the whole thing and claim ourselves Scientologists?

Should I take you seriously?

[arthwollipot]

Should I take you seriously?No. It's an April Fools joke.

Just call me killjoy spoiler.

[Verde]

Selling evolution, as some sort of all-powerful truth, is a lie and a sham!

Thank you for that wonderful post.

I have been struggling for some time against the illogic of reality, but now armed with this insight I will be able to purge my being of all 'evolved' genetic material.

It's still 3/31 here, so I have to wait another hour, but I still wish to thank you for showing the way.

Hugs.

V.

[MG1962]

have you ever gone and dug a fossil. Have you ever walked across an ancient landscape and seen the story of time etched into the land. Have you ever walked across long dead coral reefs 1000s of miles from the nearest water?

I have done all these things. In them I see the struggle of life through eons. Does evolution affect how I feel about my God? Not in the least. My God laid the basic foundations for this amazing place we call the universe.

If I am created in his image, I am both humble enough to know I dont know the grand plan, and how all we see fits together. I am also curious enough to go seek the answers. God didn't give man all this, to simply curl up in a book and ignore all around that is around us. To do so is to do dishonour to God and ourselves

[arthwollipot]

:rolleyes:

Am I the only one who failed to fall for the joke?

[AudioFreak]

pft! Yeah, after I called it! :P

[Naughtyhippo]

:rolleyes:

Am I the only one who failed to fall for the joke?

nah, but it was quite funny thoughC:\Program Files\World of Warcraft\

[Naughtyhippo]

oops, small amount of baby interference there

[Menalitus]

oops, small amount of baby interference there
Your baby can type? And plays Warcraft?

(Menalitus is my main Warcraft character name, sad eh)

[Naughtyhippo]

She just bashes the keyboard good. As well as inserting a file name she's done something to firefox so it's not my normal view and has got the date repeated all over my desktop. Does anyone know how to get the status bar back on the bottom of firefox?

Don't worry about the name, mine is Globule. My husband's is Titanicus - does that sound insecure??

[Safe-Keeper]

Maybe it's just April Fool's day on the east coast already?*facepalm*

Oooooooh! There we go! Silly me:covereyes!

Worst thing is that when I saw this thread, I immediately thought of another April fool's joke in another forum in which a strongly atheist poster declared he had become a fundamentalist Christian:D.

[Menalitus]

Theres an awesome April fool on the BBC website, flying penguins! Beautifully produced and presented by one of the Monty Python guys. Worth a look, one of the best I've ever seen.

[Menalitus]

She just bashes the keyboard good. As well as inserting a file name she's done something to firefox so it's not my normal view and has got the date repeated all over my desktop. Does anyone know how to get the status bar back on the bottom of firefox?

Don't worry about the name, mine is Globule. My husband's is Titanicus - does that sound insecure??



I am guessing you have already tried View - StatusBar from the menus?

[MG1962]

We had a good one down under - Virgin Blue announced cheap no seat flights - Any flights over 2 hours will come with a calf massage for all standing customers

[Naughtyhippo]

@menalitus menus had ALSO disappeared but some random clicking restored order....hmmm perhaps i should use this as an evolution example....but it is still reliant on some underlying order.......hmmm bet it's all connected to pi. it always is, even if you have to add an 'e'

[Wowbagger]

Too few of you have taken into account the underlining factors. Too few!!!

[Ysidro]

Brother Wowbagger, I believe you're right in that we need to cast off the false theory (and ONLY a theory) of evolution! However, you're wrong in assuming Creationism is the answer!

It's obvious if life can only come from life then life has always been! The Earth must be eternal for were else would all the baby ducks and monkeys and puppies and kitties live forever and ever?

No my friends, I believe Eternalism is the one true answer to the origins of life! It always was and it always will be! Hallelujah! Amen!

[Wowbagger]

I see some of you are not liking me for this. But, calm down! It seems some of my words are bolder than others. I am sure many more of you will eventually agree with them. It is only a matter of time!

[Nogbad]

I see some of you are not liking me for this. But, calm down! It seems some of my words are bolder than others. I am sure many more of you will eventually agree with them. It is only a matter of time!

Made me laugh :D

[Ron_Tomkins]

No. It's an April Fools joke.

Just call me killjoy spoiler.


Really? Can I call you that? That's a cool nickname.


You can call me Moe.

[Wowbagger]

All right, all right, quit complaining...

APRIL
FOOLS!!

Man, I got some of you good, didn't I?!!

More details to come.

[Wowbagger]

I don't suppose anyone is interested in the history of the opening post? Here is the short version:

I first came up with the idea of creating my own collection of stupid anti-evolution arguments, some months ago. I had written a few down on a scrap sheet of paper, and considered posting them, right away, for the humor section, as a sequel to some "Evidence of Creation" joke thread I started last year.

Then.... I lost the paper. Then, I figured it would work better as an April Fool's gag, anyway. So, I tried to re-construct the stupid arguments, best I could, from memory. The results, I suppose, were probably not quite as spectacular as they would have been, if only I still had the original sheet of paper. But, I think it's not too terrible.

Here is a paragraph that didn't make the final cut, because I couldn't remember how I was supposed to end it:

Finally, I would like to mention the "micro" vs. "macro" evolution thing. Many of us, in the past, have claimed that no new information is really necessary for new features to emerge on a life form, that mutations and transpositions, etc. would suffice. But, surely the new material that makes the features have to come from somewhere! It’s simple math, really. I think there was supposed to be a clever quip after this. But, I can't remember what it was, though the phrasing of the original, hand-written version probably had something to do with it, if only I could remember what that was.

And, for the record: No, I am NOT really "giving up" on Evolution. I am, in fact, hypothesizing ways we can enhance our efforts to open the minds of the masses up to it.

Tomorrow, if I have time, I shall debunk my own Opening Post, just for the heck of it.

[Wowbagger]

Guess what, folks. I've been debating creationists on the Internet for a long time now. So, debating people on the Internet is all it takes to become an expert at something?!

And, I am just about to give up! No matter how much evidence I try to bring to them, they always manage to dismiss it with some simple logic I never considered before, and they never seem to learn anything! Oh, grow a brain! If you think evidence can be beaten down by "simple logic", you are rendered hopeless as a bastion of scientific understanding.

In fact, I have probably learned a lot more from them, then they have from me. This is probably true, to a certain degree. You probably learned a lot about the mentality of Creationists, and how it takes more than throwing evidence in their face to convince them. Many of them truly believe that they are not just fighting against a "theory of evolution", but a new form of Nazism.

I should warn you, Bagger, that if you take the side of Creationists, you would be taking the side of paranoid delusional maniacs.

I am starting to feel as though the Theory of Evolution, that we all know and love, is seriously flawed, in many respects, after all! Funny how the rest of your post completely fails to describe any such serious flaws.

First of all, there is this whole "Life from Life" argument. We have only ever seen life forms emerge from other life forms. The best our experiments can do is yield parts of life forms, which is clearly not the same thing. Ah, but the fact that we can produce all or most of the parts of life, is evidence consistent with the idea that life does not need a "higher intelligence" to form naturally.

Perhaps we might never be able to create life forms in the lab, until we understand what the essence of life really is. What if we find it, only to realize that evolutionary origins are just not possible?! Hypothetically, if that did be come the case, at least we would then have evidence it was the case. Right now, Creation has no evidence, and no testable ideas. So, we dismiss it.

If there was a Special Creation event, in the beginning, we certainly can't recreate that in a lab. Hypothetically, if there was such an event, it would be within the realm of science to study it, just like we now study the Big Bang without having to recreate the whole thing.

So, how can we claim evolution is true science, when we can't even test the opposing idea?!! Well...duh... I think it has something to do with the fact that we can't test the opposing idea.

And then there is "Irreducible Complexity". I used to think that evolution was enough to explain how the wide variety of complex structures we see in life came about. But, now I am not so sure. Argument from Personal Incredulity, nitwit!

We certainly can't apply evolution to non-living complex structures, like geological features. Irrelevant to biological life forms!

How can we be so sure it applies to every living creature? What if there are phenomenal exceptions waiting to be discovered? We found no exceptions, yet, nor devised any mechanisms by which exceptions could come about. If you think there ought to be exceptions, why don't you go and find them!

Without having an empirical framework in place, how are we supposed to determine if something is Intelligently Designed, after all? Good point!! I hope you ask this question to every ID proponent you meet!

Finally, I would like to talk about applicability: The claim that Evolution helps us fight diseases and all that. Careful, you are treading into the fallacy of Consequences, here.

Now, scientists tend to be really smart people. No argument, here!

Can't they just figure out how all these diseases work, by studying them really hard?! Evolution provides a groundwork for allowing such studies to happen! Life forms, and diseases, change over time. Understanding the selection pressures that effect them is a key component in such hard studies.

Is it really important to assume humans and monkeys and slime molds all share some common ancestor in order to, for example, cure AIDS? In that case, not really. But, it is important to know how AIDS and the HIV virus emerged, as a product of Evolution, in the first place; and how it might be prone to evolve in the future, in order to fight it. Know thy enemy.

Evolution makes scientists look stupid and incompetent. First of all, that seems to contradict your claim that they tend to be really smart.

Second of all, I don't see Creationists coming up with anything smarter or more powerful, when it comes to understanding all the various aspects of life.

If a theory cannot be applied to scientific endeavors, why even bring it to the table? Especially, in such a forceful way? Good point!! I hope you ask this question to every ID proponent you meet!

There are people, on both sides, trying to turn this into a political, moral issue, and/or Hollywood issue. Is the Theory of Evolution really so weak, that it can be threatened by these things? Scientific understanding does not come automatically. Many of its ideas are non-intuitive. And, while these things do NOT threaten the use of Evolution in scientific circles, right now, it does make an impact on public understanding.

If Creationists succeed in warping public understanding enough, it could have long-term consequences in the progress and application of vital sciences, including medical research, environmental studies, and the farming industry, among others.

That is utterly pathetic! Intelligent Design is even stronger than that! ID can only thrive as a political/moral/Hollywood issue, because it can not really succeed as a scientific issue.

Scientific ideas are required to prove themselves with uncompromising precision and repeatability. Unlike, say, Hollywood movies.

And, ID is gaining ground: More and more people, even some very smart ones, Argument from Popular Opinion, followed by Argument from Authority. What happened to Evolution having serious flaws?

are recognizing that Creationism is "so true", that they don't even bother questioning it, anymore! Excellent point!! No argument here!!

It's blatantly obvious to them. Why can't scientists, who are supposed to examine every idea, see this? They like to see evidence. Not arguments.

And if you don't think I am serious about this post, think about it this way: We have just entered the second quarter of 2008: Oh, I get it! The first day of the 2nd quarter is April 1st. So, is this some kind of April Fool's Day joke, then?

That means the 150 year anniversary of Darwin's Origin of Species is rapidly approaching. And, in all this time, we still don't have all the answers to how everything evolved! The progress we made is not instantly undone by the fact that there is always still more progress that could be made.

In 150 years, we have learned enough about life, through the study of Evolution, that we have saved countless lives in the way it has transformed medical research, the farming industry, and environmental conservation, etc.

In thousands of years, Creationism has done nothing but rot our minds.

I think it's utter foolishness for me to continue in this futile endeavor! I wholeheartedly agree.

It is time for all of us JREFers to concede: Selling evolution, as some sort of all-powerful truth, is a lie and a sham! Who is with me? I am with you, on the point that Evolution is NOT an all-powerful truth. Like all scientific theories, it is a provisional model, subject to change based on new evidence.
If you claim that we think otherwise, it is a strawman.

Finally, and further more, I happen to think that you smell bad! Your stench, Wowbagger, is so strong, I can smell its foul odor in the very words you typed, as if your stinking body was right in the same room as me, and it is making everyone retch! Come back here, after you have had a good hose-down by the hazmat team! Filthy punk!

[arthwollipot]

Finally, and further more, I happen to think that you smell bad! Your stench, Wowbagger, is so strong, I can smell its foul odor in the very words you typed, as if your stinking body was right in the same room as me, and it is making everyone retch! Come back here, after you have had a good hose-down by the hazmat team! Filthy punk!Careful Wowbagger. Keep it civil. We wouldn't want anyone to be insulted now, would we? :D

[Wowbagger]

So, debating people on the Internet is all it takes to become an expert at something?! Pot, meet kettle.

Many of them truly believe that they are not just fighting against a "theory of evolution", but a new form of Nazism. Not all of them are like that. Some of them really are trying to get science done.

Ah, but the fact that we can produce all or most of the parts of life, is evidence consistent with the idea that life does not need a "higher intelligence" to form naturally. It is consistent with your track record of failures!

Well...duh... I think it has something to do with the fact that we can't test the opposing idea. Exactly. No argument here!

Argument from Personal Incredulity, nitwit! Oh, shut up and eat your spinach!

Good point!! I hope you ask this question to every ID proponent you meet! I shall!

In that case, not really. At least you admit it. You admit macro-evolution is useless, in fighting disease!!!!

In 150 years, we have learned enough about life, through the study of Evolution, that we have saved countless lives in the way it has transformed medical research, the farming industry, and environmental conservation, etc.

In thousands of years, Creationism has done nothing but rot our minds. Hey!! I never realized that before! You are right!!! It is Intelligent Design that is the sham, not Evolution! Evolution works, 'cause it really is based on evidence, after all! Holy cow!! Consider me a convert!! And, let us pretend that I never wrote all that embarrassing stuff promoting Creationism, in the first place. Okay?!

Finally, and further more, I happen to think that you smell bad! Your stench, Wowbagger, is so strong, I can smell its foul odor in the very words you typed, as if your stinking body was right in the same room as me, and it is making everyone retch! Come back here, after you have had a good hose-down by the hazmat team! Filthy punk! *sniffs self*

Wooooofffff!! You're totally right, again! I should really do something about that, thanks!!!

You are my hero and savior, Wowbagger! Without you, I never would have seem the truth!

Careful Wowbagger. Keep it civil. We wouldn't want anyone to be insulted now, would we? :D Forget civility. I was trying to keep it sanitary!