The Power Of The Gods?

[Space_Ed]

I have thought of something recently...

Undeniably there is little to no evidence of any form of god or gods. That is pretty much a given. My thoughts have recently been veering from the materialistic to the dualistic i.e. the possibility that consciousness is a product of the material world (the body) and the... spiritual(?) world.

It is definately true that the mind is a very deceitful and powerful thing. The power of the placebo effect etc. But I have been thinking that so many intelligent people have really truely believed in the power of magic and sorcery, the power of cursing and the importance of pleasing the gods. Why is this? Is the rational explanation that all these people are completely wrong? Or is there the possibility that these people have observed things happen to reaffirm their beliefs and are actually right?

People in areas where black magic is truely believed in have died after being cursed. Is this really just the power of the mind or is there the possibility that something else is at work?

Recently I have been wondering- If a persons belief in something is strong enough can this belief actually materialize in the physical world? If I invoked Jupiter to curse someone then sacrificed a goat on it I very much doubt that that would make the tiniest bit of difference to the person. But what if I really believed in Jupiter? What if the receiver of the curse did and what if everyone around me did? Would the curse be just as pointless then as it would be otherwise?


(Expected response- 'yes')

[Gate2501]

Seems like this would mean that:

A: Prayer should work.

B: The people that pray don't *really* believe.

[Space_Ed]

Yeah prayers don't work for ***** do they? But people still do them.

[Space_Ed]

Look what I just found...

'Does prayer effect plant seeds?

In a study on germinating seeds done by Dr. Franklin Loehr, a Presbyterian minister and scientist, the objective was to see in a controlled experiment what effect prayer had over living and seemingly non-living matter. In one experiment they took three pans of various types of seeds. One was the control pan. One pan received positive prayer, and the other received negative prayer. Time after time, the results indicated that prayer helped speed germination and produced more vigorous plants. Prayers of negation actually halted germination in some plants and suppressed growth in others.

In another experiment two bottles of spring water were purchased. One container was used as a control, receiving no prayer; a group prayed for the second. The water was then used on pans of corn seeds layered in cotton, with one pan receiving the prayer water and the other receiving the control water. The pan receiving the prayer water sprouted a day earlier than seeds in the other pan. The prayer seeds had a higher germination and growth rate. The experiment was repeated with the same result each time.'

From http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

[Scottch]

You stated: "there is little to no evidence of any form of god or gods."

I don't see any "little evidence" at all.

I think we should say there is NO evidence of any form of god or gods.

Scottch

[Gate2501]

Look what I just found...

'Does prayer effect plant seeds?

In a study on germinating seeds done by Dr. Franklin Loehr, a Presbyterian minister and scientist, the objective was to see in a controlled experiment what effect prayer had over living and seemingly non-living matter. In one experiment they took three pans of various types of seeds. One was the control pan. One pan received positive prayer, and the other received negative prayer. Time after time, the results indicated that prayer helped speed germination and produced more vigorous plants. Prayers of negation actually halted germination in some plants and suppressed growth in others.

In another experiment two bottles of spring water were purchased. One container was used as a control, receiving no prayer; a group prayed for the second. The water was then used on pans of corn seeds layered in cotton, with one pan receiving the prayer water and the other receiving the control water. The pan receiving the prayer water sprouted a day earlier than seeds in the other pan. The prayer seeds had a higher germination and growth rate. The experiment was repeated with the same result each time.'

From http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

No peer review.

This is one guy that believes that prayer works carrying out experiments that proves prayer works.

Show me the evidence, his methods, etcetera, if I am to believe this outrageous claim that speaking to an unobservable entity creates real world results.

[Space_Ed]

Found this too:

http://www.noeticscience.com/

[Space_Ed]

You stated: "there is little to no evidence of any form of god or gods."

I don't see any "little evidence" at all.

I think we should say there is NO evidence of any form of god or gods.

Scottch


Yeh no evidence.

[Jeff Corey]

Look what I just found...

'Does prayer effect plant seeds?

In a study on germinating seeds done by Dr. Franklin Loehr, a Presbyterian minister and scientist, the objective was to see in a controlled experiment what effect prayer had over living and seemingly non-living matter. In one experiment they took three pans of various types of seeds. One was the control pan. One pan received positive prayer, and the other received negative prayer. Time after time, the results indicated that prayer helped speed germination and produced more vigorous plants. Prayers of negation actually halted germination in some plants and suppressed growth in others.

In another experiment two bottles of spring water were purchased. One container was used as a control, receiving no prayer; a group prayed for the second. The water was then used on pans of corn seeds layered in cotton, with one pan receiving the prayer water and the other receiving the control water. The pan receiving the prayer water sprouted a day earlier than seeds in the other pan. The prayer seeds had a higher germination and growth rate. The experiment was repeated with the same result each time.'

From http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

No. You link shows not one scientific article. Find some and come back soon.

[paiute]

Look what I just found...

'Does prayer effect plant seeds?

In a study on germinating seeds done by Dr. Franklin Loehr, a Presbyterian minister and scientist, the objective was to see in a controlled experiment what effect prayer had over living and seemingly non-living matter. In one experiment they took three pans of various types of seeds. One was the control pan. One pan received positive prayer, and the other received negative prayer. Time after time, the results indicated that prayer helped speed germination and produced more vigorous plants. Prayers of negation actually halted germination in some plants and suppressed growth in others.

In another experiment two bottles of spring water were purchased. One container was used as a control, receiving no prayer; a group prayed for the second. The water was then used on pans of corn seeds layered in cotton, with one pan receiving the prayer water and the other receiving the control water. The pan receiving the prayer water sprouted a day earlier than seeds in the other pan. The prayer seeds had a higher germination and growth rate. The experiment was repeated with the same result each time.'

From http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

Given that the above is true, we can now proceed with my protocol:

1. Test prayers specific to all of the many religions - Anabaptist, Sunni Muslim, Greek Orthodox, etc.
2. Determine from test which religion is the true religion.
3. Kill all the rest as infidels.

Dr. Franklin Loehr better pray that it's the Presbyterian prayer that is effective.

[Space_Ed]

'Dr. Deepak Chopra, who is well-known for his insights on science and spirituality, says these prayer experiments are proving what he's been saying all along: There are healing forces in nature that science is only beginning to understand.

"What physicists are saying to us right now," he says, "is that there is a realm of reality which goes beyond the physical … where in fact we can influence each other from a distance."' - From that Noetic link

[Space_Ed]

Given that the above is true, we can now proceed with my protocol:

1. Test prayers specific to all of the many religions - Anabaptist, Sunni Muslim, Greek Orthodox, etc.
2. Determine from test which religion is the true religion.
3. Kill all the rest as infidels.

Dr. Franklin Loehr better pray that it's the Presbyterian prayer that is effective.

Lol if the results are true and can be taken as evidence, my hypothesis is that it doesnt matter which religion the prayer follows it is the act of praying or the belief that it will work that does the magic. Not Allah, Jesus, Jehova or Buddha.

[Space_Ed]

A way to test that would be to get athiests to pray along with people from all world religions. See if the skeptics have less power. Wooooooooooo that would be interesting, woooooo

[Gate2501]

'Dr. Deepak Chopra, who is well-known for his insights on science and spirituality, says these prayer experiments are proving what he's been saying all along: There are healing forces in nature that science is only beginning to understand.

"What physicists are saying to us right now," he says, "is that there is a realm of reality which goes beyond the physical … where in fact we can influence each other from a distance."' - From that Noetic link

Chopra is a nutter. It has been shown over and over again to be the case.

I have seen the man speak for five minutes just playing word salad with large metaphysical terms. He doesn't ever actually prove or justify anything.

He is a windbag.

[Space_Ed]

Chopra is a nutter. It has been shown over and over again to be the case.

I have seen the man speak for five minutes just playing word salad with large metaphysical terms. He doesn't ever actually prove or justify anything.

He is a windbag.

Wouldn't surprise me. I listened to a Krishna Consciousnesss monk talk the other day. What a p*nis.

[Space_Ed]

Chopra is a nutter. It has been shown over and over again to be the case.

I have seen the man speak for five minutes just playing word salad with large metaphysical terms. He doesn't ever actually prove or justify anything.

He is a windbag.

Yeh he seems like one. Hes one of those people that apply quantum physics to things to try to give it credibility. Not impressed.

[Gravy]

Yeh he seems like one. Hes one of those people that apply quantum physics to things to try to give it credibility. Not impressed.Why did you quote him above? You didn't comment on the quote, you simply reprinted it.

And why did you cite the prayer-seed experiments? What do you think of their scientific merit and efforts to eliminate bias?

[Space_Ed]

Why did you quote him above? You didn't comment on the quote, you simply reprinted it.

And why did you cite the prayer-seed experiment? What do you think of its scientific merit and efforts to eliminate bias?

A lot of people here don't understand why I would copy something and leave no comment. It is because I have not had any time to mull it over. I put it up and see other peoples reactions and compare them to my own. When I put up something and don't leave a comment about it it is usually because I have not formed an opinion.

[Space_Ed]

And why did you cite the prayer-seed experiments? What do you think of their scientific merit and efforts to eliminate bias?


Well I think that their assumption that evidence that prayer works constitutes evidence for God is pretty solid evidence that they are biased.

[Space_Ed]

They don't say anything about the environment- for all we know the seedlings that were prayed for could have been on a radiator.

[Space_Ed]

That investigation has little to no scientific value and the information presented as it is, is entirely anecdotal.

[Gate2501]

A lot of people here don't understand why I would copy something and leave no comment. It is because I have not had any time to mull it over. I put it up and see other peoples reactions and compare them to my own. When I put up something and don't leave a comment about it it is usually because I have not formed an opinion.


You make a lot more sense to me now.

I actually like you after reading that, you are like a spontaneous blob of Internet putty. This is very anomalous.

Normally people here on the Internets have a strong opinion that IS right, and only post to see that reinforced, or laugh at those who disagree.

[Space_Ed]

You make a lot more sense to me now.

I actually like you after reading that, you are like a spontaneous blob of Internet putty. This is very anomalous.

Normally people here on the Internets have a strong opinion that IS right, and only post to see that reinforced, or laugh at those who disagree.

Wow I've made a friend.

[Space_Ed]

Awesome site. Just what I always wanted lol:

http://www.islamicfinder.org/prayer/index.html

(Note the last section of the introduction about meaning your prayer)

[Space_Ed]

Perhaps my theory could help explain why the idea that 'faith' is important came about. Perhaps without 'faith' God would not help them or manifest himself.

[Space_Ed]

The section at the bottom of this is worth a read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer#Efficacy_of_prayer

And it doesn't conflict at all with my theory :D I don't think.

[Horatius]

That investigation has little to no scientific value and the information presented as it is, is entirely anecdotal.



And yet, is would be very easy to construct a test of this alleged effect that would have scientific value.

First, double blinding. Have the people doing the praying be completely separate from the people growing/measuring the seeds. Have a third party keep track of both sides of the experiment.

Second, store all water and plants in as close to the same conditions as possible. Have each plant labeled as to which set it belongs to, and then set up a grow table, and intersperse the various sets so as to average out any variations in heat/light/air/whatever.

Third, conduct multiple trials, keeping accurate records of all trials. Include all these trials in your analysis, except in the cases where there was some major disruption (like, say the grow table caught fire one time, or some such thing).

These three simple steps would produce some good science. And anyone could do this. You'd only need three people, a few plants, and a table in your house somewhere. A couple of months of part-time work, and poof! All the evidence you'd need, one way or the other.

This isn't Rocket Science people, it's just plain old science.

[quarky]

If your socks don't match, you are more likely to get hit by a car.

(slight distraction to normal perceptual acuity)

prayer is similar.

[godless dave]

"What physicists are saying to us right now," he says, "is that there is a realm of reality which goes beyond the physical … where in fact we can influence each other from a distance."' - From that Noetic link


Except physicists aren't saying that.

[fuelair]

Wouldn't surprise me. I listened to a Krishna Consciousnesss monk talk the other day. What a p*nis.Last I heard, penis is ok to write here. If I'm wrong, I am sure they will let me know - and you, by default.:)

[nathan]

Recently I have been wondering- If a persons belief in something is strong enough can this belief actually materialize in the physical world? If I invoked Jupiter to curse someone then sacrificed a goat on it I very much doubt that that would make the tiniest bit of difference to the person. But what if I really believed in Jupiter? What if the receiver of the curse did and what if everyone around me did? Would the curse be just as pointless then as it would be otherwise?
In this thought experiment does the cursee know the curser cursed them? Or is the existence of the curse kept secret to the curser (and the now-dead goat)?

[Olowkow]

Mythbusters TV show tried an experiment thinking good thoughts and bad/destructive thoughts with a pretty fair scientific setup. Plants showed no significant difference as I recall.

[Gravy]

A lot of people here don't understand why I would copy something and leave no comment. It is because I have not had any time to mull it over. I put it up and see other peoples reactions and compare them to my own. When I put up something and don't leave a comment about it it is usually because I have not formed an opinion.Unfortunately, that's what I thought. I consider it bad form not to "mull over" what you post before asking others to do so.

[Space_Ed]

In this thought experiment does the cursee know the curser cursed them? Or is the existence of the curse kept secret to the curser (and the now-dead goat)?

Lol it was just something I thought of. I don't really think my idea is likely to be right.

[Space_Ed]

Unfortunately, that's what I thought. I consider it bad form not to "mull over" what you post before asking others to do so.

Well I think that being a rude ****** like you are is bad form but I don't think that will stop you.

[cyborg]

But I have been thinking that so many intelligent people have really truely believed in the power of magic and sorcery, the power of cursing and the importance of pleasing the gods. Why is this? Is the rational explanation that all these people are completely wrong? Or is there the possibility that these people have observed things happen to reaffirm their beliefs and are actually right?

Illusions will continually fool people because people's ability to interpret illusions correctly has not really changed through the ages.

The rational explanation is that these people are wrong and people will continue to be wrong because the basic underlying reason why people come to the wrong conclusions hasn't changed.

This is what education is for.

[Space_Ed]

Illusions will continually fool people because people's ability to interpret illusions correctly has not really changed through the ages.

The rational explanation is that these people are wrong and people will continue to be wrong because the basic underlying reason why people come to the wrong conclusions hasn't changed.

This is what education is for.

Yeah I think it is very probably that.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Perhaps my theory could help explain why the idea that 'faith' is important came about. Perhaps without 'faith' God would not help them or manifest himself.

Faith is important. On any given field, if you want to sucess, you must have faith in yourself. Just not blind faith. A faith in the sense of trust in yourself and motivation to get things done. But people usually reffer to the faith that makes things magically happen just because you had faith in them. This is a game of superstition that never ends good. Because the day you utterly fail even though you were really faithfull, you will begin looking for the uniexisting causes, convincing yourself that "you didn't really have enough faith" and thus it is your fault because you didn't have faith (not because of a real causal factor) and so it goes on.

[buzz lightyear]

Illusions will continually fool people because people's ability to interpret illusions correctly has not really changed through the ages.

The rational explanation is that these people are wrong and people will continue to be wrong because the basic underlying reason why people come to the wrong conclusions hasn't changed.

This is what education is for.

The problem here cyborg, is that your reality is also an illusion.

What makes you think it is the correct one?

Could you also have come to the wrong conclusions from lack of "education"?

[Gravy]

Well I think that being a rude ****** like you are is bad form but I don't think that will stop you.Please explain in what way I have been a "rude ******" to you. Do you disagree that it's respectful to mull over the material you post before asking others to do so?

[cyborg]

The problem here cyborg, is that your reality is also an illusion.

What makes you think it is the correct one?

I don't think it's "correct".

I think it's less "incorrect".

[Space_Ed]

I don't think it's "correct".

I think it's less "incorrect".

Touche

[Space_Ed]

Please explain in what way I have been a "rude ******" to you. Do you disagree that it's respectful to mull over the material you post before asking others to do so?

Yes. I do disagree.

[buzz lightyear]

I don't think it's "correct".

I think it's less "incorrect".

Bravo cyborg.

So how do you know that your illusion is less "incorrect".

Is this just a hunch, or have you a lifetime of study "education" to back up your claims.

Have you have studied the occult, religion, and magic to a point that you consider yourself an "expert"?

Have you ever altered you reality to a point that you even believe that an alternate reality exists?

[Space_Ed]

Bravo cyborg.

So how do you know that your illusion is less "incorrect".

Is this just a hunch, or have you a lifetime of study "education" to back up your claims.

Have you have studied the occult, religion, and magic to a point that you consider yourself an "expert"?

Have you ever altered you reality to a point that you even believe that an alternate reality exists?

Valid question.

[arthwollipot]

:popcorn1

[buzz lightyear]

:popcorn1:duck:

[Belz...]

It is definately true that the mind is a very deceitful and powerful thing. The power of the placebo effect etc.

Placebo is not a power. It is an impression.

But I have been thinking that so many intelligent people have really truely believed in the power of magic and sorcery, the power of cursing and the importance of pleasing the gods. Why is this?

Because it's been shown NOT to work.

Is the rational explanation that all these people are completely wrong? Or is there the possibility that these people have observed things happen to reaffirm their beliefs and are actually right?

Argument from ignorance.

People in areas where black magic is truely believed in have died after being cursed.

Some of them, you mean.

Dr. Deepak Chopra

Disqualified.

[Ashles]

I'm jealous.

I want to be 'a spontaneous blob of Internet putty'.

It sounds sweet.

[buzz lightyear]

Because it's been shown NOT to work.

Argument from ignorance.

Some of them, you mean.



Like good old GZ keeps hammering at me..........."PROOF".
Where is your proof that it doesnt work.

If I did some "magic" and changed the course of history how would know if I had or hadn't. It would just be.

And the part where you say "some of them" to the statement of people dying from curses........................like "huh"!
Probably should see a doc about that bullet in your foot.

[Space_Ed]

And the part where you say "some of them" to the statement of people dying from curses........................like "huh"!
Probably should see a doc about that bullet in your foot.

Ha. That guy seems to think that my theory is actually what I believe. It was just an idea that I had. People often dismiss things like aliens and sorcery etc because it seems unlikely but dont try to find any evidence for or against. Einstein said something like: "dismissal of an idea without further inquiry is the height of ignorance."

[arthwollipot]

Ha. That guy seems to think that my theory is actually what I believe. It was just an idea that I had. People often dismiss things like aliens and sorcery etc because it seems unlikely but dont try to find any evidence for or against. Einstein said something like: "dismissal of an idea without further inquiry is the height of ignorance."True enough, but some ideas have had so much enquiry in the past that there is little point in further enquiry. When the enquiry has produced negative results, then the idea can usually be dismissed at a first approximation.

[Space_Ed]

Here is a modern day witchcraft website. These people obviously believe in this stuff so its work having a look.

http://www.witchcraft.com.au/

By the way before anyone starts to call be stupid for putting this up, I do not have an opinion on this as yet. My expectation is that it will all turn out to be completely unsubstantiated but you can't know that without properly looking into it.

[Space_Ed]

True enough, but some ideas have had so much enquiry in the past that there is little point in further enquiry. When the enquiry has produced negative results, then the idea can usually be dismissed at a first approximation.

Yeah its probably not worth bothering with.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Look what I just found...

'Does prayer effect plant seeds?

In a study on germinating seeds done by Dr. Franklin Loehr, a Presbyterian minister and scientist, the objective was to see in a controlled experiment what effect prayer had over living and seemingly non-living matter. In one experiment they took three pans of various types of seeds. One was the control pan. One pan received positive prayer, and the other received negative prayer. Time after time, the results indicated that prayer helped speed germination and produced more vigorous plants. Prayers of negation actually halted germination in some plants and suppressed growth in others.

In another experiment two bottles of spring water were purchased. One container was used as a control, receiving no prayer; a group prayed for the second. The water was then used on pans of corn seeds layered in cotton, with one pan receiving the prayer water and the other receiving the control water. The pan receiving the prayer water sprouted a day earlier than seeds in the other pan. The prayer seeds had a higher germination and growth rate. The experiment was repeated with the same result each time.'

From http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htmFirst, find me a single one of those studies that actually cites the original report. I see a lot of claims and no sources.

Second, show me one that was repeated with the same results.

I see a typical lying for Jesus site.

I have tracked down the original reports on a supposed claim that a meta-analysis showed prayer was effective and found the meta-analysis was falsified. I have yet to see any scientific study that prayer worked for anything other than subjectively reported improvement by people knowing they were prayed for. After all, prove you can make plants grow better with water that has been prayed over and you'd likely qualify for the JREF million.

It bothers me to see these lies for Jesus passed on from person to person as if they are actual facts when they really amount to myths and unsubstantiated claims.

[Space_Ed]

Placebo is not a power. It is an impression.

I disagree with you here. People given placebo pills really do get measurably better. It is more than just an impression that they get better. They actually do get better.

[Space_Ed]

It bothers me to see these lies for Jesus passed on from person to person as if they are actual facts when they really amount to myths and unsubstantiated claims.

I went on a website once looking for evidence for the ressurection. They way they went on about it you'd think it was archeologically proven and everything. '500 witnesses', loads of rubbish about how no Roman soldiers would leave something they've been told to guard etc. Then I noticed it was a christian website. I then found another site run by a historian. Needless to say his theory of the ressurection story was far less fantastical.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Found this too:

http://www.noeticscience.com/Here is a CSICOP review of DrTarg.

Notes of a Fringe-Watcher - Distant Healing and Elisabeth Targ (http://www.csicop.org/si/2001-03/fringe-watcher.html)This was brought home to me recently when E. Patrick Curry, a retired computer engineer, now a consumer health advocate in Pittsburgh, sent me a batch of material about Elisabeth Targ, daughter of the paraphysicist Russell Targ. Readers of SI will recall how the team of Targ and his paraphysicist friend Harold Puthoff made a big splash in parapsychological circles in the 1970s. They claimed to have established beyond any doubt that almost everybody is capable of "remote viewing," their term for what used to be called clairvoyance. In addition, they claimed they had validated Uri Geller's psychic ability to remote-view pictures, and his ability to control the fall of dice by PK (psychokinesis). They sat on the fence about Uri's ability to bend spoons and keys because they were never able to capture the actual bending on film. Some parapsychologists called this a "shyness effect."This woman appears to be a fraud and has gotten lots of NIH money to study her supposed remote healing. Great, our tax dollars for a charlatan.

[Skeptic Ginger]

A way to test that would be to get athiests to pray along with people from all world religions. See if the skeptics have less power. Wooooooooooo that would be interesting, wooooooA way to test it is to get any prayer to work in a valid double blind study. It has not been done.

[Southwind17]

It is definately true that the mind is a very deceitful and powerful thing. The power of the placebo effect etc. But I have been thinking that so many intelligent people have really truely believed in the power of magic and sorcery, the power of cursing and the importance of pleasing the gods. Why is this? Is the rational explanation that all these people are completely wrong? Or is there the possibility that these people have observed things happen to reaffirm their beliefs and are actually right?

I think so. I believe Mark Twain had the answer to this well over a century ago:
Hain't we got all the fools in town on our side? And ain't that a big enough majority in any town? (The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn)

[Skeptic Ginger]

I disagree with you here. People given placebo pills really do get measurably better. It is more than just an impression that they get better. They actually do get better.The placebo effect is a small effect and works better on things like pain and pain related medical problems than on other conditions. It is often overrated in people's perceptions.

Breast cancer patients do better when they attend support groups.

Life stresses both positive and negative predict the probability one will suffer a major illness in the year following the event. Those stresses have been given a value on the Holmes scale.

I can track down sources on these later if anyone cares. And perhaps there have been updates to these research conclusions so it is probably worth checking in to.

[Southwind17]

Breast cancer patients do better when they attend support groups.

"Better" in what way, exactly?