Qi Gong? "Chi" Whatever.

[Eos of the Eons]

http://www.exn.ca/video/?Video=exn20031001-qigong.asx


Ahem, :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[arcticpenguin]

Whatever kind of plugin that video wants, I don't have it.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
Whatever kind of plugin that video wants, I don't have it.

http://www.exn.ca/


Under "recent hot clips"

[T'ai Chi]

Aww man, wish I could see that clip.

Yeah, it is "qi", or "ch'i" (both in the alphabet version of Chinese), or "ki" (in the alphabet version of Japanese) but not chi.

The chi from the word "t'ai chi ch'uan" is from the word t'ai chi, which is the word for the entire yin-yang symbol, and is not the same word as "ch'i" or "qi".

Anyway, I practice qigong for flexibility and for a weight bearing exercise, and I enjoy it, and that is about it. I see qi simply as the Chinese word/concept.

[Eos of the Eons]

It is not excersize of any sort. It is healing power this guy is using on cancer cells in a petri dish. He has to heal them or just kill the cancer cells. The non-cancerous brain cells need to show some benefit from the guy's treatment as well.

Then they had him just sit by some petrie dishes without doing his 'thing'. Then a regular person just sat by them.

No results yet. It was just silly though. Chanting and rocking and his silly hand movements over the dish. Ya know.

[BTox]

Interesting clip, but too bad they don't give the results. They said it will take a year - for just cell cultures?

Anyway, the grandmaster has the moves down well!

[RCNelson]

arcticpenguin:
Whatever kind of plugin that video wants, I don't have it.
T'ai Chi:
Aww man, wish I could see that clip.
To see the video, paste the following URL into Windows Media Player.

http://www.exn.ca/news/video/exn20031001-qigong.asx

[arcticpenguin]

I moved over to a Windows machine and viewed the video. (My primary machine is Linux)

Very very odd that they didn't report any results.

Misleading that they showed one cancer cell die without reporting overall results.

I think their plexiglass box could be set up a little better to keep the 'healer' from actually touching or interfering with the plates.

Are the patients being 'treated' in a medical facility or at the healer's place? Are they also receiving 'conventional' medicine?

I hope their blinding and controls are adequate; there was clearly a human judgment step in counting the number of cells dying, etc.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons

No results yet. It was just silly though. Chanting and rocking and his silly hand movements over the dish. Ya know.

I agree, in my opinion 'ch'i can heal serious diseases' claims are incredibly silly, but fortunately they can be easily tested.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


I agree, in my opinion 'ch'i can heal serious diseases' claims are incredibly silly, but fortunately they can be easily tested.

Wow, Troll Chi? How can this be done without testing every person with every disease and every claimed healing master? Shall I recite to you your inane assertion about this? Please do explain. Expect me to do an A/B roll of whatever you say here against what you barfed up some weeks ago.

Clock's a-ticking, Sherlock. Woo-hoo.

[Bikewer]

On one of the Martial Arts boards I frequent, we've had long, involved threads on similar subjects.

The Oriental belief in Chi (or Ki) is pervasive, and all involved in the whole philosophy of Asian medicine, acupuncture, meridians, etc...etc...

It's pervasive in the martial arts as well, and there are numbers of "masters" who promote various sorts of "chi power' including the ability to effectively perform telekinesis; they claim to be able to knock down an opponent without touching him.

I have, on more than a few occasions, extended the invitation to such practicioners to apply for Randi's prize, as this is clearly a paranormal ability. No takers, to date.

The demonstrations given by these folks are either blatant (and rather simple) sideshow tricks, or else "assisted" by the participants, who are almost invariably thier own students. No attempts at any sort of controls.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by BillHoyt

How can this be done without testing every person with every disease and every claimed healing master?


We're talking about testing a single person's claim here.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
We're talking about testing a single person's claim here.

No, no....if we are to follow your own logic, we need to keep testing every single person on this planet, for whatever they claim to be able to do to every other person, animal, inanimate object or idea ever conceived, for all eternity.

Don't start setting up rules, just because you are the one under the microscope.

[T'ai Chi]

CF tags Bill, Bill cimbs into the ring, Bill tags CF, etc. :)


No, no....if we are to follow your own logic, we need to keep testing every single person on this planet, for whatever they claim to be able to do to every other person, animal, inanimate object or idea ever conceived, for all eternity.


If a single person makes the claim of healing or influencing/whatever with qi, then we can test that person fairly easily.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Troll Chi
CF tags Bill, Bill cimbs into the ring, Bill tags CF, etc. :)



If a single person makes the claim of healing or influencing/whatever with qi, then we can test that person fairly easily. [/B]

Shall I recite back to you your nonsense about science and having to test everyone, son?

[BillHoyt]

Troll Chi,

Here it is, in all its.. whatever:

You said people don't have superpowers. That implies you've tested everyone. Not even you are immune to providing evidence. You are a foolish person for hinting that the people not passing Randi's challenge implies in any way that people in general don't have superpowers.

Duh.

So now what say you, troll? Which one stays and which one goes?

[Dancing David]

I would say that ki is a way of definig certain things that happen in states of relaxation and mindfulness. Every one has heard the story of super human strenth, there are times my body has responded to a physical theat with out my consious awareness being involved.

Ki is the life force, tapped through pactise or nessecity, if some one is under less stress that means they are more likely to be healthy. No super power neeeded.

Follow the way of the dao, follow the way of the dao, follow the, follow the, follow the way of the dao. Were off to see lao Tzu the wonderful wizard of dao.

[Eos of the Eons]

Meh, all you have to do is relax, clear your mind, and breath from the 'stomach'. This deep relaxation helps relieve the effect of stress (good or bad) has on your body. It also gives the mind a 'rest' and you can think more clearly after.

Anyone with an anxiety disorder or under a lot of stress (moving/life changes) benefits greatly from this break. Otherwise, They keep themselves in a stressed state and they suffer from the constant strain on mind and body.

Letting yourself relax and concentrate only on the whacky guy making his noises has the same effect-like hypnosis...

clear your mind and only listen to a person talk, and concentrate only on that while relaxing every part of your body. Or just relax and visualize something pleasant. Even visualize putting whatever stress or bad thing bothering in a box and sealing it up.

You don't need to pay anyone. for htis effect. Get a tape of pleasant noises or music. Sit back and relax and think of nothing else. Breath from the stomach. That's important...long deep breaths.

You'll get all this 'healing power' free. Of course it won't help you cure some dread disease all on it's own, but it could help whatever treatment you're getting for something physical or mental.

You can do it on your own. If you have to read up on Yoga or whatever to help you along, then whatever helps isn't bad unless you give your hard earned money over to some quack that you think can only help you do this.

Hell, get a massage. Does a body good, but don't rely on any relaxation technique alone to heal anything. It'd only be a band aid.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by BillHoyt

So now what say you, troll? Which one stays and which one goes?

You also neglected, as is your usual treatment, to provide context or follow-ups.

I said that practically speaking, thaiboxerken (I believe he was the one who brought it up) was correct. Logically, however, he was 100% wrong, as even he cannot test all people throughout all past, present, and future. If you make the statement:

'No person has superpowers.'

That is a universal statement, incapable of being tested.
(any logicians around?)

But practically, and I agree here, Ken is correct- no person has superpowers.

However, Bill, in this specfic thread about a specific hypothetical person claiming to be able to manipulate something with qi, I am saying we can test that person to see if there is any substance to his/her claims. That in no way contradicts my statement that a universal dismissal of no people having 'superpowers' (whatever those are) cannot be logically proven without testing every person past, present, and future, throughout all space.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
However, Bill, in this specfic thread about a specific hypothetical person claiming to be able to manipulate something with qi, I am saying we can test that person to see if there is any substance to his/her claims. That in no way contradicts my statement that a universal dismissal of no people having 'superpowers' (whatever those are) cannot be logically proven without testing every person past, present, and future, throughout all space.

But "this person" is not the only person making this claim. There are others. Many others.

Please explain why we should just - in this case - test this person, but - in the other - test each and every person on the planet, for all eternity.

Were you only speaking theoretically before? There is, actually, a "limit" to when you will stop testing people for paranormal powers?

If so, when?

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

But "this person" is not the only person making this claim. There are others. Many others.


Yes, there are others, and anyone making a testable claim can be tested.

[exarch]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
There is, actually, a "limit" to when you will stop testing people for paranormal powers?

If so, when?How about when there are no more people claiming to have special powers? The testing will stop because there is nothing left to test.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


You also neglected, as is your usual treatment, to provide context or follow-ups.

I said that practically speaking, thaiboxerken (I believe he was the one who brought it up) was correct. Logically, however, he was 100% wrong, as even he cannot test all people throughout all past, present, and future. If you make the statement:

'No person has superpowers.'

That is a universal statement, incapable of being tested.
(any logicians around?)

But practically, and I agree here, Ken is correct- no person has superpowers.

However, Bill, in this specfic thread about a specific hypothetical person claiming to be able to manipulate something with qi, I am saying we can test that person to see if there is any substance to his/her claims. That in no way contradicts my statement that a universal dismissal of no people having 'superpowers' (whatever those are) cannot be logically proven without testing every person past, present, and future, throughout all space.

Whiny little Troll Chi,

Oh, come on, pup. We discussed this. I gave you opportunity to correct it. For someone who claims to have a degree in statistics, this stance is pitiful.

This version of your reasoning is muddier than the others. I didn't think that was possible. First of all, pup, logic is not "testable" in this context. The question is: is the hypothesis testable? Of course it is! The second question is: do we need to test everybody? Of course not. As we conduct each test, we increase our confidence in the statement. It moves up from 0% and converges on 100%. As a practical matter, we don't need to do many such tests to gain high confidence in the absence of superpowers.

Ya buy em books and ya buy em books and all they do is chew on the covers.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by exarch
How about when there are no more people claiming to have special powers? The testing will stop because there is nothing left to test.

By Troll Chi's pretzel logic, we must wait until we have exhausted the supply of future humans. The species must go extinct first.

Ya buy em books...

[Martin]

Originally posted by BillHoyt
Ya buy em books and ya buy em books and all they do is chew on the coversThat, Sir, is going in my sig.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by BillHoyt

Whiny little Troll Chi,
Oh, come on, pup.
this stance is pitiful.
reasoning is muddier
First of all, pup,
Ya buy em books and ya buy em books and all they do is chew on the covers.


For someone rallying against supposed trolls, you sure do talk a good game. Unfortunately for you, in intelligent discussions, your bouncer tactics won't work. Ever.

:roll:

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by BillHoyt

..,logic is not "testable" in this context. The question is: is the hypothesis testable? Of course it is!


Uh...where did I say the 'logic was testable' ? Yes, I agree the hypothesis of someone being able to influence something with what they are calling qi is testable. Yes, obviously. I've already stated that.


The second question is: do we need to test everybody? Of course not. As we conduct each test, we increase our confidence in the statement. It moves up from 0% and converges on 100%. As a practical matter, we don't need to do many such tests to gain high confidence in the absence of superpowers.


In a practical matter, as you note, I agree. Logically, what you are concluding is erroneously concluding that there are no purple ravens because we haven't found one yet. Since we can't look throughout all space and time, we can't validate that claim.

Obviously, an increase in the confidence of the statement is not the same as a universal negative like: "no one has superpowers". You could obviosuly only be justified in saying "we are so and so confident that no one has superpowers". You might be 99.99999999 confident, but that is still epsilon away from saying "no one" as you claim.

Ken and you talk about "no one". Only in a practical sense can you state that and be correct. Logically, you both are wrong. Period.

But that is besides the point. You seem to bring up something from way back, from another thread, simply for argument generation that you are so fond of. I've only said in this thread that testing someone who claims to be doing stuff with qi is easy.

[CFLarsen]

T'ai Chi,

You forgot to address these points:

Please explain why we should just - in this case - test this person, but - in the other - test each and every person on the planet, for all eternity.

Were you only speaking theoretically before? There is, actually, a "limit" to when you will stop testing people for paranormal powers?

If so, when?

You are not going to avoid these points, like you have avoided to post your critique as well as what studies you consider show possible evidence of psi?

Don't make me make a list....

[exarch]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
T'ai Chi,

You forgot to address these points:

Please explain why we should just - in this case - test this person, but - in the other - test each and every person on the planet, for all eternity.

Were you only speaking theoretically before? There is, actually, a "limit" to when you will stop testing people for paranormal powers?

If so, when?

You are not going to avoid these points, like you have avoided to post your critique as well as what studies you consider show possible evidence of psi?

Don't make me make a list.... I think this is sad. Both you and BillHoyt are just arguing for arguments' sake, and not really going to achieve anything except being bullies.

Clearly the two of you need to learn and listen to what is actually being said before attacking someone just because, for some obscure reason, you don't like him or her or what they said in the past.

I would take a good look at your own actions here before calling someone a troll.

[CFLarsen]

exarch,

You are free to point out where any poster - not just me, BillHoyt, or anybody else - is not focusing on the issues. On the facts. On the evidence.

That's all that matters. Don't you agree? Shouldn't we pursue, relentlessly, what is real and true?

I didn't call T'ai Chi a troll, I just mentioned that he doesn't seem to want to answer the tough questions. That seems to be a feature that applies almost exclusively to creduloids.....

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
You seem to bring up something from way back, from another thread, simply for argument generation that you are so fond of. I've only said in this thread that testing someone who claims to be doing stuff with qi is easy.
Cut T'ai some slack, guys, why don't you? He just said something perfectly sensible, and all you seem to be able to do is complain that this contradicts something allegedly rather less sensible he apparently said some time ago. If you can't let this go, this thread dies. Which would be a shame, as it seemed quite interesting.

Now maybe I'm overinterpreting here, but T'ai seems to me to be taking a much more rational view of stuff over the past couple of weeks than at times in the past. OK, I'm new-ish, and I may have got it wrong, but that's how it seems to me. If you can't accept that someone may have been trolling (trawling, I think would be the correct spelling) in the past, but is not doing so now, or that someone may have become more critical and rational having been in the forum for a while, then I think you're as bad as he was, if not worse.

Rolfe.

[exarch]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
I didn't call T'ai Chi a troll, I just mentioned that he doesn't seem to want to answer the tough questions. That seems to be a feature that applies almost exclusively to creduloids.....What I can gather from what's already been said in this thread, is that T'ai Chi said something in an earlier thread about how, in theory, you can't proclaim not a single individual within the human race has superpowers unless you tested the entire human race, and logically speaking, he's correct when he says that. However, it is not that hard to exclude this one single greyhaired chinese dude by submitting him to an experiment, and find (with a high degree of certainty) that he is indeed not endowed with superpowers of any kind.

Since the claim here is markably different from what I assume the claim was in the previous thread that sparked this discussion, you can't compare them. It is after all not inconceivable that at some point in the future people will develop what might nowadays only be described as "superpowers", just like we have technology today that would only a mere 100 years ago have been considered magic items or witchcraft. But right now we are talking about a woowoo qi'gong master who says he heals with chi, which can easily be (dis)proven.

[T'ai Chi]

Thanks for the kind comments, exarch and Rolfe. Made my Internet day. :)

[CFLarsen]

T'ai Chi,

Address the questions, please.

[Eos of the Eons]

Alright already, take it that flaming area or something. I'm more concerned about woo woo woozy wavy whacko dude saying he can cure cancer. Now, that one should be answering some questions!