McCain on Polygamy and Forced Marriages with Child Brides: No Comment?

[Kaylee]

As you all know the problem of polygamy (including forcing child brides into marriage) by members of the FLDS Church occasionally surfaces in the news. Recently this has surfaced in the news again as Texas has rescued over 400 children from a polygamy compound into children protective services.

See: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080407/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

Given that the problem primarily occurs in Utah and Arizona, I was curious if McCain, who has served as a senator from Arizona since 1987, had ever had a comment about it or attempted to pass a bill or get funding to help solve this problem in his home state.

I found very little. It seems his policy is not to make a comment, not even when asked by Flora Jessup (an anti-polygamist activist) to help rescue her 13 year old sister from a forced marriage. :jaw-dropp

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00396.htm (Date: May 26, 2006)
...while the FLDS, America's largest polygamy cult, is incorporated in Utah -- members live and vote on either side of the Utah-Arizona border. That means media darling John McCain's (R--AZ) stance on polygamy is also an issue [ Scoop: Reports Reconfirm Hatch Said He Condones Polygamy], particularly because of McCain's 2008 US presidential aspirations.

McCain twice ducked my requests for comment for articles on polygamy, first in 2000 for the front page of the Weekend Financial Times Seven brides for one brother: Plural marriage is rife in the western United States, and then for a piece that ran March 2005 both in Scoop and CounterPunch, where I noted:

"Arizona is even less responsive on the Babyland issue [unmarked children's graves in the FLDS canyonlands]. John McCain (R - AZ), who is incensed about Iraq POW humiliation, takes campaign contributions in part from Mohave County where the FLDS is headquartered on the Arizona side of the border. McCain failed to comment for my Financial Times October 2000 cover story on polygamy and his assistant press secretary, Crystal Benton, told me last year regarding the Babyland matter that his schedule was "too hectic" for him to make a statement, although she wouldn't want it to be reported that the Senator had "no comment".

Funny the night before Benton told me McCain's schedule was too hectic, he appeared on MSNBC's Hardball promoting his new book (he's a frequent guest). He's also found time to host Saturday Night Live."

Finding any other comment on polygamy from either of the two US senators from Arizona - both Republicans: John McCain and John Kyl - is an exhausting exercise.


Beswick [ed note: a child activist] also comments that neither McCain nor Kyl has helped Arizona anti-polygamy activists rescue women in their jurisdictions from the polygamy cult. He cites Flora Jessop pressing the Arizona Attorney General's office and Arizona's US Congressmen J.D. Hayworth and John Shadegg, as well as Senator McCain, to help free Jessop's 13-year old sister from the FLDS after the girl had been raped.

Jessop said she got no assistance.

<snip>

… there is no defense for the inaction of McCain, Kyl, J.D. Hayworth and other Arizona leaders regarding the polygamy issue, since there is only one side to the story:

Polygamy is a human rights issue -- it violates the UN Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) -- which 182 countries of the world have signed -- including the United States of America.

[Note: I added the bolding]

Off topic, but I will mention this anyway -- luckily for the children of Arizona, other politicians are not as reluctant to help them. A child bigamy bill has just passed the Arizona State Senate:

http://www.azcapitoltimes.com/story.cfm?ID=8373 (Date: March 27, 2008)

This bill prevents a parent from obtaining custody if he or she practices child bigamy.

<snip>

Flora Jessop, who escaped polygamy, testified on behalf of his [ed note: Representative Lujan (the bill apparently originated in Arizona’s House of Representatives)] legislation. "This effort has a lot of bipartisan and public support. Now that the Senate committee has approved the bill, I am very hopeful that the legislation is moving forward this year," Lujan said in a statement. "The legislation will help women leave polygamous communities because they will be confident that their former husband will not be able to subject the children to further abuse."

[daredelvis]

I am so happy that someone has finally stepped up and done something about the systematic child rape and abuse that has been going on at the FLDS compounds for decades (not just the girls, but the excess boys in this community are also victims). There were many angles available for the authorities to do something about this (the institutionalized stealing from the state for one), but in a post Waco world they were afraid to act for fear of a repeat of that disaster (brought about entirely by the adult members of the Branch Davidians). Under The Banner Of Heaven is a good, but nauseating account of what is going on at the FLDS compounds and this was an issue that I would regularly contact McCain's office about when I lived in Arizona (to McCain's credit I would never bother with the worthless Kyl).

One thing I can say for the state of Texas if that they have done the tough, but right thing by addressing this issue. I lived in Arizona from 94 to 06 and what went on was an embarrassment. I would not single out McCain for standing by and watching what was going on and doing nothing, the entire state did.

Daredelvis

[Kaylee]

Yes, I think Texans have a lot to be proud of.

In regard to McCain, I agree that he does not bear the sole blame but he is definitely part of the problem. For example, when he was asked specifically to help rescue a 13 year old girl forced into a polygamous marriage, he didn't even comment. He had several options including putting public pressure on the state AG to do something or he could have asked the FBI to investigate. He could have also at least made a public comment or even at least responded to the woman who asked for help for her sister. He did nothing instead. This is all the worse because in the Hillsdale (Utah)/Colorado City (Arizona) municipality, polygamy and forced child marriage has been occurring out in the open for all to see for decades.

In Texas, the church has established the compound less than a few years ago. They had originally said, IIRC, that their purchase of the ranch was for investment purposes only and that they would not be moving congregants in. They did not live openly in the area but restricted the women and children to the compound.

It appears that the first time the Texas authorities got an opening to do something about this problem, they didn't waste anytime. Good for them.

ETA: I don't think the MSM should give McCain a free pass on this issue. I think they should be asking him for his position on this issue and they should also be asking him what he has done as a senator to deal with this flagrant illegal activity which by the way it is practiced in his home state includes child abuse. Also, as one of the articles linked to in the OP says, polygamy is not only recognized as an illegal activity by the USA, it is also considered a human rights issue by the UN.

And as you have noted, and is repeated here for truth:

* the abuse also extends to boys including "throwing away" many of them like excess garbage so as to ensure that the older men in the community can continue to have polygamous marriages. (To be fair, I don't recall how many, if any, are kicked out of their communities before the age of 18 however. Regardless, its a very shameful practice.)

* Its partially financed by institutionalized stealing from the state.

[Zygar]

I agree that more legislation needs to be created to attack these groups.

However, a primary reason for the group's move to Arizona was legislation which cracked down on their abuses in the state of Utah.

The FLDS and other similar clans have created compounds in Canada and Mexico, as well. This allows them to move around easily and commit their specific atrocities in places where they are most legal.

It also gives them the advantage of having sanctuaries outside the jurisdiction of any specific laws created to eliminate them.

Personally, pointing the finger at McCain, in this particular instance, is a little counterproductive. Anything Arizona did to push the group outside of AZ would only tend to further scatter them.

[Brainster]

Scoop? We're citing articles at Scoop now on a skeptic forum?

As for the article itself, the instance cited notes that somebody wrote McCain about a situation in Utah. Oooh, he passed the buck? But of course, Utah is not his territory. And I found this effort hilarious:

John McCain (R - AZ), who is incensed about Iraq POW humiliation, takes campaign contributions in part from Mohave County where the FLDS is headquartered on the Arizona side of the border.

Oooh, he takes campaign contributions from people who live in the same county? And how dare he get incensed about Iraq POW humiliation!

Ditto for the Flora Jessop story. Flora herself lives in Phoenix (http://www.helpthechildbrides.com/stories/florajessopautobio.htm), but her sister was in Utah.

Question: What has Barack Obama done about polygamy and force marriages with child brides?

[dudalb]

I think McCain was advised not to comment on a ongoing legal case..standard procedure with politicians.

[T.A.M.]

What has Hillary Clinton done? What have you done? What have I done?

TAM;)

[daredelvis]

Personally, pointing the finger at McCain, in this particular instance, is a little counterproductive. Anything Arizona did to push the group outside of AZ would only tend to further scatter them.

Arizona should have enforced the laws on the book. They can't scatter if they are sitting in jail cells.

Daredelvis

[Zygar]

Arizona should have enforced the laws on the book. They can't scatter if they are sitting in jail cells.

Daredelvis

It's all about gathering evidence. That's the drawback of the sort of rights we Americans enjoy and appreciate.

[daredelvis]

It's all about gathering evidence. That's the drawback of the sort of rights we Americans enjoy and appreciate.

Thank you for your condensing lesson on rights. It is clear from your dismissive statement that you are unfamiliar of the shenanigans going on in near the Utah / Arizona border. There was plenty of evidence to lock up most of leaders of the FLDS using the Al Capone model. They were ripping off the State and Federal governments right and left.

I am very surprised that the operation in Texas has gone as smoothly as it has, and how little resistance was put up by the sect members. If on the other hand it had turned into a blood bath, how do you believe that would have gone over. Do you think the blame would rightly be placed on the abusers and the criminals, or do you think the fallout would. I think that fear of such a standoff was what prevented action. I am surprised and pleased that Texas took the step it did, and that there has been no loss of life.

Daredelvis

[dudalb]

What has Hillary Clinton done? What have you done? What have I done?

TAM;)


I love the way some people are trying to make a huge thing about McCain dodging a question on the issue.
You are not seeing Hilary or Obama not making statements about this case for the same reason: their legal advisor has told them not to comment on a ongoing criminal investigation would be a bad,bad,move,and comments on the topic need to be carefully framed.
And it's not like the candidates could make any difference anyway. the Federal penalaties for Polygamy are already pretty stiff.

[Zygar]

Thank you for your condensing lesson on rights. It is clear from your dismissive statement that you are unfamiliar of the shenanigans going on in near the Utah / Arizona border. There was plenty of evidence to lock up most of leaders of the FLDS using the Al Capone model. They were ripping off the State and Federal governments right and left.

I am very surprised that the operation in Texas has gone as smoothly as it has, and how little resistance was put up by the sect members. If on the other hand it had turned into a blood bath, how do you believe that would have gone over. Do you think the blame would rightly be placed on the abusers and the criminals, or do you think the fallout would. I think that fear of such a standoff was what prevented action. I am surprised and pleased that Texas took the step it did, and that there has been no loss of life.

Daredelvis

Yeah, I know nothing about it. :rolleyes:

[Cleon]

Thank you for your condensing lesson on rights. It is clear from your dismissive statement that you are unfamiliar of the shenanigans going on in near the Utah / Arizona border.

I find the above deduction to be quite amusing.


There was plenty of evidence to lock up most of leaders of the FLDS using the Al Capone model. They were ripping off the State and Federal governments right and left.

Oh yeah? Prove it in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt.

Without cooperation from the local law enforcement agencies.
Without cooperation from any of the people involved.

There's plenty of evidence of wrongdoing...But not so much when it comes to legally admissible evidence.


I am very surprised that the operation in Texas has gone as smoothly as it has, and how little resistance was put up by the sect members.

The FLDS is not known for employing violence against the outside world, and neither Jeffs nor any of his predecessors preached violence. (Contrast that with David Koresh, who had his followers believing that the infidels were going to invade, and thus they had to be armed to "defend" themselves.)

[daredelvis]

I find the above deduction to be quite amusing.
Yes, now I see the Salt Lake City location. But, to take my initial post as a suggestion that the members of the FLDS are not due the rights of any citizen is insulting.


Oh yeah? Prove it in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt.

Without cooperation from the local law enforcement agencies.
Without cooperation from any of the people involved.
That was the goalpost that I suggested???

Enough to investigate and lock up members of said local law enforcement? There was enough fraud within the school system and local law enforcement agencies that with a little effort convictions could be won.

I never suggested, or meant to suggested that the authorities were in possession of the evidence necessary to "Prove it in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt." I suggested that they did not take the steps to acquire said evidence. Forgive me if I feel that this situation was not the priority it should have been for state and federal law enforcement agencies. Something about child rape and systematic child abandonment gets to me.

There's plenty of evidence of wrongdoing...But not so much when it comes to legally admissible evidence.

Maybe not enough in the child abuse cases, but there was plenty to start an investigation on the fraud and misuse of state monies. Look at how soon after the Texas authorities moved in they were able to conclude that ALL of the children were either abused, or in danger of being abused. I will be curious to see how those accusations hold up in court.

The FLDS is not known for employing violence against the outside world, and neither Jeffs nor any of his predecessors preached violence. (Contrast that with David Koresh, who had his followers believing that the infidels were going to invade, and thus they had to be armed to "defend" themselves.)
CNN would disagree with you.

Law enforcement officials had feared the possibility of a violent showdown in trying to capture Jeffs, who was believed to travel with heavily armed security guards.

But in the end, the only people with the polygamist leader when he was captured were his brother and one of his wives, Naomi Jeffs. They were released without charges.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/30/jeffs.arrest/index.html

Yes, not on the level of the followers of Koresh, but my point is that the Waco standoff might have contributed to the unwillingness for the authorities to move in and remove the children.

Daredelvis

[marksman]

Yes, not on the level of the followers of Koresh, but my point is that the Waco standoff might have contributed to the unwillingness for the authorities to move in and remove the children.
Which would equally explain why a Senator (any of the three currently running for President) might want to just let law enforcement do its job and not rush into something that might precipitate a Waco-style fiasco. Which is exactly why politicians so often refuse to comment about ongoing federal investigations.

[Cleon]

CNN would disagree with you.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/30/jeffs.arrest/index.html

Actually, CNN said nothing that contradicted me.

In fact, it was one of their correspondents who, when asked, pointed out that the FLDS doesn't have a history of violence towards outsiders. (This was during live video coverage, so I don't have a link for you.)

The police would be stupid not to have a contingency for every possibility, and the media's been playing up the possibility of a violent confrontation for obvious reasons, but there really wasn't much reason to believe there would be one.

As for Jeffs' personal guards, he's made so many enemies over the years that they were likely there to guard him against expelled enemies, exiled youth, other fundamentalist groups, or men whose wives he reassigned. If he'd been genuinely interested in a violent confrontation with the outside world, he would've built an army (a la Koresh), rather than train a few minions as souped-up rent-a-cops.

[daredelvis]

Which would equally explain why a Senator (any of the three currently running for President) might want to just let law enforcement do its job and not rush into something that might precipitate a Waco-style fiasco. Which is exactly why politicians so often refuse to comment about ongoing federal investigations.

Yes, all fine points. I do not hold McCain responsible for the actions of the FLDS, I only commented that this was an issue that I wold contact his office about, and that was not meant as some ringing criticism of him. For various reasons I do not want McCain to be our next president, but this is not one. Would I have liked to hear some action on his part about this issue some years ago, yes, but I would have like to seen any action on this issue that wold have helped to remove these children from this horrible situation.

All I have to say is bravo to the Texas law enforcement agencies that finally stepped in started to do something about this situation.

Daredelvis

[Kaylee]

I agree that more legislation needs to be created to attack these groups.
Great! We agree on something! :)

However, a primary reason for the group's move to Arizona was legislation which cracked down on their abuses in the state of Utah.
Interesting. I had thought that was the reason for their move to Texas but that their establishment in Colorado City, AZ started simultaneously with their establishment in Hildale, UT. A quick look at mapquest.com shows me that they are essentially one municipality split by a state border.

The FLDS and other similar clans have created compounds in Canada and Mexico, as well. This allows them to move around easily and commit their specific atrocities in places where they are most legal.

It also gives them the advantage of having sanctuaries outside the jurisdiction of any specific laws created to eliminate them.
I'm sure that is a big advantage and I'm willing to bet it's not a coincidence that they decided to live in Colorado City/Hildale to try to take advantage of any confusion that probably results from living in an area essentially governed by two states.

Personally, pointing the finger at McCain, in this particular instance, Not this particular instance -- I think my post was misunderstood. McCain has been a senator representing AZ since 1987. I cannot find a comment attributed to him on this major problem which is unique to Utah and AZ. He has been asked several years ago to help rescue a 13 year old child married against her will and not only didn't he help, but he even refused to provide any comment. For a situation like this, IMHO, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. It appears that McCain is part of the problem.

is a little counterproductive. Anything Arizona did to push the group outside of AZ would only tend to further scatter them. That sounds like a justification for not trying to help people caught up in a nightmare situation. And I just can't agree with that.

[daredelvis]

Actually, CNN said nothing that contradicted me.

In fact, it was one of their correspondents who, when asked, pointed out that the FLDS doesn't have a history of violence towards outsiders. (This was during live video coverage, so I don't have a link for you.)

The police would be stupid not to have a contingency for every possibility, and the media's been playing up the possibility of a violent confrontation for obvious reasons, but there really wasn't much reason to believe there would be one.

As for Jeffs' personal guards, he's made so many enemies over the years that they were likely there to guard him against expelled enemies, exiled youth, other fundamentalist groups, or men whose wives he reassigned. If he'd been genuinely interested in a violent confrontation with the outside world, he would've built an army (a la Koresh), rather than train a few minions as souped-up rent-a-cops.

Minions as "souped-up rent-a-cops" are still dangerous, either to law enforcement, to themselves, or to the other members of the sect, and I suspect that they played some role in the timid way the FLDS has been dealt with over the last three decades that the Jeffs have been running Colorado city and the FLDS. Of course an additional explanation might be the negative public response to the last time there was government intervention back in the 50's.

Daredelvis

[Zygar]

Interesting. I had thought that was the reason for their move to Texas but that their establishment in Colorado City, AZ started simultaneously with their establishment in Hildale, UT. A quick look at mapquest.com shows me that they are essentially one municipality split by a state border.

Utah has cracked down in waves. The location at Hildale/Colorado City is a major result of this and your below statement:

I'm sure that is a big advantage and I'm willing to bet it's not a coincidence that they decided to live in Colorado City/Hildale to try to take advantage of any confusion that probably results from living in an area essentially governed by two states.

Not this particular instance -- I think my post was misunderstood. McCain has been a senator representing AZ since 1987. I cannot find a comment attributed to him on this major problem which is unique to Utah and AZ. He has been asked several years ago to help rescue a 13 year old child married against her will and not only didn't he help, but he even refused to provide any comment. For a situation like this, IMHO, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. It appears that McCain is part of the problem.

My point is that the FLDS have a knack for living in a manner that is unprosecutable. Changing laws will not change this behavior. Instead, they will just open another location which allows them to manipulate the system in the way they wish.

That sounds like a justification for not trying to help people caught up in a nightmare situation. And I just can't agree with that.

Feel free to think that. I want something to be done, and I am glad that Texas has stepped up. But I believe you are minimizing the complexity of the solution.

Minions as "souped-up rent-a-cops" are still dangerous, either to law enforcement, to themselves, or to the other members of the sect, and I suspect that they played some role in the timid way the FLDS has been dealt with over the last three decades that the Jeffs have been running Colorado city and the FLDS. Of course an additional explanation might be the negative public response to the last time there was government intervention back in the 50's.

Daredelvis

Given that there is rarely any way to attack the FLDS that does not break the constitution, they haven't historically needed to resort to violence. They want people to leave them alone. Leaning towards externally directed violence doesn't tend to keep a group isolated for long.

[Kaylee]

Scoop? We're citing articles at Scoop now on a skeptic forum?
Anything wrong with Scoop? The article seemed factual and agreed with what I recall reading about the FLDS over the years, and also seeing on TV news.

As for the article itself, the instance cited notes that somebody wrote McCain about a situation in Utah. Oooh, he passed the buck? But of course, Utah is not his territory.
Yes indeed, McCain passed the buck. If you look at the letter's image you will see that it is in reference to Nicole Holm. Do a search on Nicole Holm and FDLS and only one family comes up and their residence was in AZ. That's right, McCain passed the buck.


And I found this effort hilarious:

Oooh, he takes campaign contributions from people who live in the same county? And how dare he get incensed about Iraq POW humiliation!
OK, I agree with you on that one. Mohave County consists of more cities than Colorado City. That was either a invalid point or a poorly written quote. Perhaps the reporter misquoted and meant to say Colorado City which I understand is to be entirely populated by the FLDS. It appears that they are the only landlord in town and that only people in good standing at the FLDS church can live in Colorado City.

Ditto for the Flora Jessop story. Flora herself lives in Phoenix (http://www.helpthechildbrides.com/stories/florajessopautobio.htm), but her sister was in Utah.
I don't know who owns this site (http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/smart/janetta/janetta.htm) but according to it, the Jessop family, resided in Colorado City, AZ, and Ruby (the sister) went to school in Colorado City. The same web site says that after repeated efforts by Flora to find her sister after her forced marriage, the Utah family services eventually came through and located her. Keep in mind that Colorado City, AZ and Hildale, UT are essentially one city split by a state line. The place must be a bureaucratic nightmare.

Question: What has Barack Obama done about polygamy and force marriages with child brides?
I grew up in Illinois and to the best of my knowledge polygamy and forced marriages with child brides is not a problem in Illinois. My understanding is that McCain is in a position to help AZ citizens get help from the AZ AG and AZ state agencies, and that he can ask the FBI for help in dealing with forced marriages with child brides in AZ also. My understanding is that Obama, a senator from IL cannot help AZ citizens the same way. Is your understanding different?

[Kaylee]

I think McCain was advised not to comment on a ongoing legal case..standard procedure with politicians.

I think we are talking about two different things. I believe that you are referring to the current situation in TX and I was referring to Flora Jessop asking for help, a few years ago, for her 13 year old sister who had been forced into marriage.

Even if it would have been prudent for McCain to be careful about what he said for legal (vs. political) reasons he had options. He could have said that he would help her get in touch with someone at the FBI that could help her or that he was looking into it but was limited as to what he could say since the situation might turn into a legal case. Instead he said absolutely nothing.

[Kaylee]

What has Hillary Clinton done? What have you done? What have I done?

TAM;)

TAM, of all the 50 states in the USA, only Utah and Arizona have had this flagrant problem for years.

McCain has been a senator representing Arizona since 1987 and, yet, in all that time it appears that he has not commented on this problem or has provided any legislative, financial or political help to solve or at least reduce this problem.

While I think it is fair to ask all 3 presidential candidates what their position is on polygamy and forced child marriages, and also what they are prepared to do to help solve or at least reduce this problem – this has been going on in McCain’s back yard – not Clinton’s and not Obama’s.

The political climate in Utah and Arizona appears to be changing*, however it doesn’t look like McCain has had anything to do with that.

* Note:

• In my first post in this thread I mentioned a bill in AZ that has so far passed in the State Senate that will prevent adults who practice child bigamy from having full or split custody over children.

• In Utah a bill called the Child and Family protection law (http://www.utahbar.org/sections/family/assets/bill_voting_poll.pdf)looks like it may pass this year. It will make it a 3rd degree felony for organizations to pressure families to abandon a minor. Some boys as young as 13 years old have been left to fend for themselves by the FLDS community. For non-Americans, its illegal in the US to hire anyone younger than 16 with some very rare exceptions. To read more about this phenomena just do a search on “lost boys fdls”

[Zygar]

TAM, of all the 50 states in the USA, only Utah and Arizona have had this flagrant problem for years.

That is patently false.

Polygamist sects exist in Utah, Nevada, Montana, Arizona, Wyoming, Idaho, California, Missouri, Texas (well, until recently), British Columbia, and Mexico. Texas is probably the newest place to make this list, but the rest of those locations have continuously housed one or more of these sects since the early 1900s or earlier. Please refer to Mormon fundamentalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_fundamentalism) for a fairly comprehensive list of these splinter groups.

[Brainster]

Anything wrong with Scoop? The article seemed factual and agreed with what I recall reading about the FLDS over the years, and also seeing on TV news.

I see them on a lot of conspiracy stuff as well; they are an aggregation site, so this is not a primary link.

Yes indeed, McCain passed the buck. If you look at the letter's image you will see that it is in reference to Nicole Holm. Do a search on Nicole Holm and FDLS and only one family comes up and their residence was in AZ..

Was that made clear in the original letter? We don't know, but McCain's letter looks very much like a form letter that gets sent out whenever it appears that the issue being discussed lies outside the senator's state.

I don't know who owns this site (http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/smart/janetta/janetta.htm) but according to it, the Jessop family, resided in Colorado City, AZ, and Ruby (the sister) went to school in Colorado City. The same web site says that after repeated efforts by Flora to find her sister after her forced marriage, the Utah family services eventually came through and located her. Keep in mind that Colorado City, AZ and Hildale, UT are essentially one city split by a state line. The place must be a bureaucratic nightmare.

I grew up in Illinois and to the best of my knowledge polygamy and forced marriages with child brides is not a problem in Illinois. My understanding is that McCain is in a position to help AZ citizens get help from the AZ AG and AZ state agencies, and that he can ask the FBI for help in dealing with forced marriages with child brides in AZ also. My understanding is that Obama, a senator from IL cannot help AZ citizens the same way. Is your understanding different?

Yes, in fact it is. Arizona has a state government, which is run by Janet Napolitano, who the last time I checked was a Democrat and unlikely to be swayed by John McCain. The Arizona Attorney General is Terry Goddard, who, gosh darn it, is another one of those Democrats. Perhaps you could help us elect more Republicans out here so that John McCain could pull some strings?

[T.A.M.]

ummm....my comment, as I think Brainster may have gotten, was sort of a friendly back hand at him for asking "what has Obama done"? I found that question to be so irrelevant that I figured I would simply add to his list, including what he and myself had done about the issue, as what I have done about it is as about as relevant as what Obama has done.

TAM:)

[Brainster]

ummm....my comment, as I think Brainster may have gotten, was sort of a friendly back hand at him for asking "what has Obama done"? I found that question to be so irrelevant that I figured I would simply add to his list, including what he and myself had done about the issue, as what I have done about it is as about as relevant as what Obama has done.

TAM:)

I got it, but didn't perceive it as a back hand at me. The fact is that some issues are and should be handled on the state level, and so John McCain's position should be the same as Hillary's or Obama's: It's not my bailiwick.

Let me add that I don't want to be heartless about the situation here. Polygamy is wrong and forced child marriages is particularly wrong. But it should be handled on the state level, not on the national level. I strongly suspect that Texas' US senators were not involved in the Texas roundup.

[T.A.M.]

my "back hand" at you was concerning your "Conservative" stance, and the jump to "Obama" bash, so to speak.

No harm, no foul, all is fair...etc....

TAM:)

[Kaylee]

dup

[Kaylee]

That is patently false.

Polygamist sects exist in Utah, Nevada, Montana, Arizona, Wyoming, Idaho, California, Missouri, Texas (well, until recently), British Columbia, and Mexico. Texas is probably the newest place to make this list, but the rest of those locations have continuously housed one or more of these sects since the early 1900s or earlier. Please refer to Mormon fundamentalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_fundamentalism) for a fairly comprehensive list of these splinter groups.

I checked out your link Zygar and it confirms that the FLDS is in UT, ZA and more recently TX. I intentionally left out TX in my response to TAM because they had recently moved there as late as 2004 [1], the FLDS had originally said that their purchase of the ranch was for investment purposes only, and, afaik, the women and children lived a secretive life and never left the ranch. As you implied in an earlier post, because we live in a free society the authorities can’t take action in anyone’s home until there is a complaint. Last week may have been the first legal opportunity that TX social services had to do anything about the problem at the ranch.

Your link mentioned other polygamous sects that have historical links to the Mormon Church. I admit that I was not aware of them. However, the link does not make it clear if they share the other problems found in the FLDS sect. Do these other sects

* Have children brides
* Prevent their children from getting an education, at least until the legally required minimum of 16 years of age?
* “Throw-away” their “extra” male children?
* Engage in activities that defraud the state?

in addition to having polygamous marriages?


The link did specifically say that the Kingston Clan (located in Utah) has child brides. As for the other sects, for each one, it either says if they don’t permit child brides (most of them) or it doesn’t say.

I do think its fair to say that the FLDS is distinctive from the other sects and have created severe problems not only within their own communities but also for the communities that live near them. I think this is evidenced by the fact that AZ and UT have started to create more legislation (mentioned in post) that deals with these problems. Additionally the state govt of AZ took over the school district in Colorado City in 2005 [2 & 3].

Would you agree with that assessment?

Sources:
[1]http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4629743 (May 4, 2005)
Residents of the rural West Texas town of Eldorado are concerned by the arrival of a polygamist sect known as the FLDS, or Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

<snip>

Last March, FLDS leaders arrived in Eldorado to purchase 2,000 acres just outside of town. When the FLDS men first came, they pretended to be businessmen and said they were building a hunting retreat for corporate clients. FLDS leaders have since admitted that they are building a new settlement for their religious sect.

<snip>

Nobody knows how many people are living there now; the oft-stated estimate of 200 is just a guess.

Eldorado locals were already distrustful of the group after its initial lie about its intentions in settling there. Many are disturbed by the group's secretiveness and disgusted by its practice of polygamy and sexual involvement with young teenage girls. There is also a concern that someday, the FLDS might try to get involved in Eldorado politics, running its own candidates for sheriff and mayor.


[2] http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/88285.php (August, 11, 2005)
State officials will move Friday to seize financial control of the Colorado City Unified School District on Arizona's northern border.
The move - unprecedented in state history - follows an investigation that Attorney General Terry Goddard said shows "very serious story of mismanagement of public money." That includes an administrative payroll padded with members of a church that controls the community, unnecessary expenses and misuse of district property.
"And the children who attend the school district, the schools in Colorado City, ultimately are the victims," he said.
But Goddard said he could not act until a law permitting a district to be placed in receivership took effect. And that will not occur until tomorrow.
The petition filed with the state Board of Education charges that school board members, administrators and employees "have routinely charged personal expenses to district-issued credit cards." But Goddard said that isn't the only problem.
He said there were more than 1,200 students in the district in 2000 before Warren Jeffs, leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints, ordered followers in his polygamous sect to pull their children out of public schools.
Goddard said while enrollment dropped to fewer than 250, the number of administrators - mostly FLDS members - not only remained the same but the district in 2002 bought a $200,000 airplane.
Yet checks made out to teachers last school year bounced, forcing the state's Schools Risk Retention Trust - essentially an insurance fund for schools - to loan the district $1.4 million to cover payroll costs.
Goddard also said the district leased five buildings for classroom space from the United Effort Plan Trust, controlled by FLDS leaders, paying multi-year contracts up front. In 2002, the district abandoned three of the leases, forfeiting about $190,000 in prepaid rent.
Yet last year the district asked the state for a new elementary school to alleviate overcrowding.
And the buildings abandoned in the lease, Goddard said, now are being used by an FLDS-controlled private school. That, said Goddard, shows at least an indirect subsidy of church-run schools by taxpayers.


[3] http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695265724,00.html (March 29, 2008)

The state of Arizona took over the school district in 2005, after teachers had gone months without pay and allegations of financial mismanagement had surfaced. Police raided district offices and seized computers, records and files. The school was put into financial receivership and most of its staff replaced.

Since then, the district has been paying off debts and slowly pulling itself out of receivership.

[Kaylee]

I see them on a lot of conspiracy stuff as well; they are an aggregation site, so this is not a primary link.
I’d be happy to post the original article, but I didn’t see it. This information looks factual, fits in with what I have heard over the years and the other articles that I have been able to find and link to in this thread.

Was that made clear in the original letter? We don't know, but McCain's letter looks very much like a form letter that gets sent out whenever it appears that the issue being discussed lies outside the senator's state.
Now that’s a lame response. :rolleyes:

Yes, in fact it is. Arizona has a state government, which is run by Janet Napolitano, who the last time I checked was a Democrat and unlikely to be swayed by John McCain. The Arizona Attorney General is Terry Goddard, who, gosh darn it, is another one of those Democrats. Perhaps you could help us elect more Republicans out here so that John McCain could pull some strings?

Another lame response. Democrats and Republicans cooperate all the time to get things done. And how did either of them prevent McCain from picking up the phone and calling the FBI for assistance? Terry Goddard was the AG in 2005 and apparently had no problem doing his job and taking over the Colorado City school district after allegations of serious financial gross mismanagement by the FLDS surfaced.

Goddard is on record of being supportive of the current proposed bill (HB 2009) that would prevent bigamist with spouses that are children from being able to have full or split custody of children. This bill was sponsored by a Democrat – Representative Luhan.

See: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/20490/polygamous-sects-2

I did a search on Napolitano and she may also be part of the problem. But according to Dick Mahoney, an independent who ran for governor in AZ in 2002, and to Flora Jessop, an anti-polygamist activist, the Republican candidate would probably have been no better.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A00E0DD133AF930A25753C1A9649C8B 63
One of them, Flora Jessop, 32, said she escaped from a plural family in Colorado City 16 years ago after repeated beatings and sexual abuse. Hearing her story and others, Mr. Mahoney agreed to bring the issue into the campaign. Ms. Jessop appears in both of his commercials, criticizing the other candidates [ed note: Napolitano [Dem] and Salmon [Rep] ].

In an interview, Ms. Jessop, who is one of 28 children of a man who had two wives, said she had also approached Ms. Napolitano and Mr. Salmon for help, and they were not receptive.

She was especially critical of Ms. Napolitano, saying, ''I've given her extensive information about Colorado City and Hildale for two years, and she's done nothing about it I'm aware of.''

Also, as far as I can tell, neither Napolitano or Salmon has come out in support of the current child bigamy bill, HB 2009.

[Kaylee]

ummm....my comment, as I think Brainster may have gotten, was sort of a friendly back hand at him for asking "what has Obama done"? I found that question to be so irrelevant that I figured I would simply add to his list, including what he and myself had done about the issue, as what I have done about it is as about as relevant as what Obama has done.

TAM:)

I think I've been thrown off by some of the strange responses and comments I've heard about this situation. But hey, I should have gotten it as well.

Mea culpa. :)

[Kaylee]

I got it, but didn't perceive it as a back hand at me. The fact is that some issues are and should be handled on the state level, and so John McCain's position should be the same as Hillary's or Obama's: It's not my bailiwick.

Let me add that I don't want to be heartless about the situation here. Polygamy is wrong and forced child marriages is particularly wrong. But it should be handled on the state level, not on the national level. I strongly suspect that Texas' US senators were not involved in the Texas roundup.




All politics is local. Tip O'Neill and Pat Buchanan. Wow a Democrat and Republican agreed on something! ;):)

Seriously, McCain was asked for help, at least once, on a similar issue several years ago. He had the option of getting the FBI involved, a federal tool that exists for a reason.

[Cleon]

Your link mentioned other polygamous sects that have historical links to the Mormon Church. I admit that I was not aware of them. However, the link does not make it clear if they share the other problems found in the FLDS sect. Do these other sects

* Have children brides
* Prevent their children from getting an education, at least until the legally required minimum of 16 years of age?
* “Throw-away” their “extra” male children?
* Engage in activities that defraud the state?

in addition to having polygamous marriages?


It's a mixed bag. There are some sects, like the Kingstons, who make the FLDS look like Quakers.

But there are others, like the Apostolic United Brethren, which do not have arranged marriages, do not allow underage marriage, and regard child and spousal abuse as serious sins. (According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_United_Brethren), they excommunicate offenders and encourage victims to contact the police.)

There are scads of small, isolated sects as well as independent fundamentalists who follow "the Principle," and they all tend to isolate themselves. At the end of the day, it's difficult to accurately gauge who does what, especially when it comes to matters like welfare fraud.

[Brainster]

I think I've been thrown off by some of the strange responses and comments I've heard about this situation. But hey, I should have gotten it as well.

Mea culpa. :)

Okay, my read of the OP was that you were trying to smear McCain on a current events issue; from what I can see of what you're saying now you're trying to get McCain involved in an issue you care about. That's why my response may have seemed a little off-key.

I have been saying that the issue is a state matter; the bill you pointed to is a state bill. I am happy to support the bill myself, and I will see if I can get the senator on the record as supporting it as well. There are apparently some federal issues as well; I note that the FBI (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2006-01-26/news/fbi-raids-polygs/full) did raid the community in 2006.

[Kaylee]

It's a mixed bag. There are some sects, like the Kingstons, who make the FLDS look like Quakers.
:jaw-dropp

But there are others, like the Apostolic United Brethren, which do not have arranged marriages, do not allow underage marriage, and regard child and spousal abuse as serious sins. (According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_United_Brethren), they excommunicate offenders and encourage victims to contact the police.)

There are scads of small, isolated sects as well as independent fundamentalists who follow "the Principle," and they all tend to isolate themselves. At the end of the day, it's difficult to accurately gauge who does what, especially when it comes to matters like welfare fraud.
Yes, I can imagine that it must be really difficult to know what the various groups, especially the ones considered "independents", are up to. Part of the reason we know how evil (trying to think of a more apt word, but I can't) the FDLS are is because they basically have taken over two cities (Colorado City and Hildale) and thus have put themselves in the spot light. It made committing more types of fraud easier for them to do (grossly mismanaging the school district funds for example), and they just went ahead and did it -- even though that type of fraud was very easy for people outside their community to observe.


Okay, my read of the OP was that you were trying to smear McCain on a current events issue; from what I can see of what you're saying now you're trying to get McCain involved in an issue you care about. That's why my response may have seemed a little off-key.

My goal is not to smear anyone. What I try to do with the candidates is look for ways to see what their real values are and what they actually do when they are not in the spot light. Sound bites spoken during televised debates and news conferences only go so far.

I have been saying that the issue is a state matter; the bill you pointed to is a state bill. I am happy to support the bill myself, and I will see if I can get the senator on the record as supporting it as well. There are apparently some federal issues as well; I note that the FBI (http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2006-01-26/news/fbi-raids-polygs/full) did raid the community in 2006.

Well, we almost agree. I think its both a state and federal matter. I don't believe in taking freedom for granted. I think its a constantly moving line and requires vigilence to preserve it. So I'm not actually being totally altruistic when I'm concerned about the welfare of the FDLS women and children. When the rest of us protects their rights not to be oppressed and abused, we are actually strengthening our rights and freedoms at the same time.

If you can get a public comment from John McCain that would be great, perhaps you can let the rest of us know what happens.

I'm glad you support the bill also. It sounds like you live in AZ, do you?

[Brainster]

Well, we almost agree. I think its both a state and federal matter. I don't believe in taking freedom for granted. I think its a constantly moving line and requires vigilence to preserve it. So I'm not actually being totally altruistic when I'm concerned about the welfare of the FDLS women and children. When the rest of us protects their rights not to be oppressed and abused, we are actually strengthening our rights and freedoms at the same time.

If you can get a public comment from John McCain that would be great, perhaps you can let the rest of us know what happens.

I'm glad you support the bill also. It sounds like you live in AZ, do you?

Yep, I've lived in the Valley of the Sun for almost 24 years now. I have some contacts in the McCain campaign and I have participated in blogger conference calls with McCain for the last year. No guarantees of course; the senator is a strict federalist and may be reluctant to get involved in state issues. But it does seem like a very common sense bill.

[Zygar]

It's a mixed bag. There are some sects, like the Kingstons, who make the FLDS look like Quakers.

Actually, for downright evilness, check out Ervil LeBaron. He ordered the killing of pretty much anyone who tried to leave his group. His daughter is still on the FBI's most wanted list, and has been for over 20 years.

BTW, she's wanted for a killing spree that also occurred in Texas. I had completely forgotten about that, but it turns out that Texas is not new to the polygamy scene.

[Tailgater]

Texans did great.........after 4 years of "letting it happen".

'This group doesn't openly talk'
"You can only press someone so far without having a criminal investigation going on," the sheriff said. "This group doesn't openly talk and they do not openly answer questions."

Children "were shuffled around houses" as investigators searched the polygamist compound in Eldorado, Texas, authorities said Thursday.

Doran said he had an informant who was "instrumental in teaching me the group's ways." But he declined to say whether the informant, a former sect member, was in Texas, or Utah or Arizona.

Barry Caver, a Texas Ranger who sometimes went with Doran to the compound, said a general welfare check wouldn't have produced much. "They would allow us on the property to the extent that we could talk to the main three or four people" only, Caver said.

Texas Attorney General Gregg Abbott said that despite other states' investigations into Jeffs and FLDS, Texas authorities had to wait until they had evidence of wrongdoing in this state to act. He said authorities handled the case properly.

"You cannot go in and bust in someone's house if there's not probable cause to do so," Abbott said.

Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who has written about polygamy, said even Jeffs' conviction was not enough to barge in on the sect in Eldorado.

"You cannot use stale evidence," Turley said. "They would need a contemporary statement or evidence at trial that an individual at the compound is practicing polygamy." What's next for the children in Eldorado?

"When you're dealing with a culture like this, they're taught from very early on that they don't answer questions to the point," Doran said. "All of that is certainly being sorted out right now."

It's just soooo easy.

[Skeptic Ginger]

There may not be anything specific from Hilary on this sect. After all, not everyone has been aware of just how extensive the abuse had become. Warren Jeffs only became the leader of the group in 2002 and he has gone over the top with a lot of things.

Clinton does, however, have more going for her as far as being concerned about and working for children, women and against teen pregnancy.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=6246

[Kaylee]

Yep, I've lived in the Valley of the Sun for almost 24 years now. Sounds very picturesque!

I have some contacts in the McCain campaign and I have participated in blogger conference calls with McCain for the last year. That's great!

No guarantees of course; the senator is a strict federalist and may be reluctant to get involved in state issues. But it does seem like a very common sense bill.I agree that polygamy is a state and not a federal issue (except of course when it occurs in federal territories outside a state’s jurisdiction).

However, forced marriages with children and fraud committed with govt. funds do appear to be federal issues. I am basing this on this web page:
http://www.fbi.gov/hq.htm

which lists the crimes that the FBI* will investigate.

Perhaps McCain would be justified in not wanting to take a position on a state bill, I honestly don’t know. It certainly seems to me that he could do so as an Arizonian citizen even if he didn't wish to do so as a US Senator.

However, I think that he could certainly state for the record whether he is willing to be of assistance in helping victims of these type of federal crimes. Better yet, he could explain how he has actually been of assistance in the past in this area.

My understanding is that the FBI is usually called upon to handle the kidnapping cases that cross state lines. I would imagine that the reason is at least partially because its much more difficult, if not impossible, for a state employee or agency to investigate or prosecute those crimes given the difficulties in sorting out jurisdiction.

We already discussed in this thread that is no doubt one of the reason why the FLDS decided to live in the Hildale/Colorado City municipality because it straddles two different states.

All the more reason that the US senators representating the area and the FBI resources in the area need to step up to the plate and help solve or at least reduce these problems.

I would be very interested in finding out the reactions of McCain or McCain’s staff to your inquiries. I’m glad you are in a position to do so!


* For Non-Americans, the FBI is a federal agency.

[Kopji]

Maybe McCain remembers how Short Creek went back in the 50's.