Zero tolerance...dress code

[Pyrrho]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/US/GMA031004Zero_tolerance_dresscode.html

Ah, for the good old days, when we used to get hit with a board for such offenses. Yeah...that's the "simpler time" people wax nostalgic about.

[Chaos]

Just one question: Which century do these school board people think they´re living in?

[LuxFerum]

the century doesn't matter,
what matter is what they think is right.

[roger]

This quote at the end of the article is what kills me:

Dress code violations are treated like other offenses, ranging from talking out in class to taking a weapon to school. Those who break the dress code one time receive a one-day suspension
This implies that you get the same punishment for bringing a gun to school as you do for a shirt becoming accidentally untucked.

[Pyrrho]

When I was in middle school, minor dress code violations usually resulted in detentions, not suspensions. If a shirt wasn't tucked in, we were told to tuck it in, and were allowed to do so. No suspension, the issue was taken care of in a minute, on with the day. Suspension was for fighting and other serious antisocial behavior. Flagrant dress code violations meant you got sent home to change your clothes, if necessary. A lot depended on your intent. If you were copping an attitude, you were more likely to get a detention...or paddling.

[Glory]

What a wonderful way for the staff to look like they are doing something about the "discipline problem" facing educators today. I like how the article describes a guy coming into the classroom for the express purpose of checking to see that the code was being followed to the letter. Untucked shirts are clearly the root of evil and will lead to the down fall of our youth.

Man, they would have hated me. I tended toward the underwear as outer wear trend when I was in high scool.

Can someone explain the connection between clothing and education? I have never bought into that, mostly because I have never seen it demonstrated that forcing kids to dress a certain way improves their behaviour or performance.

Glory

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/US/GMA031004Zero_tolerance_dresscode.html

Ah, for the good old days, when we used to get hit with a board for such offenses. Yeah...that's the "simpler time" people wax nostalgic about.

For those too lazy to click the link, here is a picture of the malefactor:
http://a.abcnews.com/media/GMA/images/abc_gma_clothes_031001_nh.jpg

There's nothing in the story detailing the dress code, but I notice that she is not wearing an elven mithril coat as she should. :p

[Eos of the Eons]

That's ridiculous. I was thinking a bare midriff or bad language splashed across it. Bother, what a bunch of freaks. No tolerance would be more than freakin untucked. What about shirts that look stupid tucked in? I never tuck my shirts in. What if it's tucked in but ungodly tight and low?

[MoeFaux]

The private school I attended my freshman year had a strict dress code. No t-shirts, no shirts with writing or emblems on them, and boys could only wear collared shirts - tucked in. It was annoying as hell, and I hated not being able to wear certain clothes.
The private school I attended my last two years of high school was much more leinient in it's dress code.

But, even at the other school, if you were in violation, you weren't suspended. That's just ridiculous.

[Mendor]

Hmm...

Although a suspension for a non-tucked-in shirt is ridiculous, I have to say that my sympathy is limited, coming from a country where we have to wear school uniform (including ties and ridiculously uncomfortable shirts).

"Dress code"? Pah!

Having said all that, the school board in this case is, quite clearly, stupid.

[rachaella]

Originally posted by Mendor
Hmm...

Although a suspension for a non-tucked-in shirt is ridiculous, I have to say that my sympathy is limited, coming from a country where we have to wear school uniform (including ties and ridiculously uncomfortable shirts).

"Dress code"? Pah!

Having said all that, the school board in this case is, quite clearly, stupid.

I would MUCH rather have school uniforms than an absurdly strict and complex dress code.

[shemp]

Back in '73, I was dressing for school one day (11th grade). I couldn't find my usual sneakers so I grabbed an old pair, put them on and went. During first period class, I looked down and noticed that my little sister had written a variety of four-letter words (relax Hal, I won't repeat them here) in magic marker all over the sides of the shoes. I was sure I'd get in trouble. Nope. Nobody noticed, all day long, until I walked in my house after school and my mother saw them and had a fit.

[Zep]

Zero tolerance means exactly that - line 'em up against a wall and shoot them, I say! They'll never do it again...

:D

[Tony]

The government has no right dictating what American citizens can and cant wear. Where's the ACLU in this injustice?

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by Tony
The government has no right dictating what American citizens can and cant wear. Where's the ACLU in this injustice?

They seem to have opinions on those issues:

here (http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRightsList.cfm?c=156)

and

here (http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRightslist.cfm?c=158)

[tamiO]

Tony

Children and their parents need to know that they have rights and should contact lawyers. It is very weird that parents and children allow the schools to violate their rights and just shrug their shoulders.

The apathy just galls me, its as if parents and children brought up in the public school system are brainwashed.

A young friend of mine was recently in a fight at school. The boys are 11 years old. The fight was over and both boys had gone their seperate ways. Someone reported the fight and the boys were called into the office. They were both handcuffed and given the "scare tactic" cops love to give potential juvenile delinquents. Threats of the diversion center were made.

The boys were both suspended for a week. The difference between me and my young friend's family? I would have had my lawyer crawling up their asses. His father gave him a good whipping for causing such trouble for him.

:mad:

[arcticpenguin]

Zero tolerance? You ain't seen zero tolerance.

Teacher throws students out window (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/10/06/morocco.teacher.reut/index.html)

[jimlintott]

David Holbrook says he doesn't understand what kind of lesson his daughter, Amber, is supposed to learn from the school's policy.

Let's see... ridiculously heavy handed enforcment of draconian laws or policies. She's learning the 'American way'.

[Mendor]

Originally posted by me
Hmm...

Although a suspension for a non-tucked-in shirt is ridiculous, I have to say that my sympathy is limited, coming from a country where we have to wear school uniformSeems I was wrong - not everyone has to here - yet...

Pupils walk out at uniform plan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/3172902.stm) Hundreds of pupils disrupted lessons at a Roman Catholic secondary school when they walked out in protest at plans to introduce a school uniform.

[Zep]

Gee, diddums for them. The vast majority of Australian schools, public and private, have mandatory uniform requirements. Not that they are draconian, nor do the kids abide by them strictly (it's cool to flout the rules), but it sure stops any fights and stuff about "different" clothes.

Here's a typical bunch of young Aussies in a school uniform.

[Tony]

Originally posted by tamiO
Tony

Children and their parents need to know that they have rights and should contact lawyers. It is very weird that parents and children allow the schools to violate their rights and just shrug their shoulders.

The apathy just galls me, its as if parents and children brought up in the public school system are brainwashed.

A young friend of mine was recently in a fight at school. The boys are 11 years old. The fight was over and both boys had gone their seperate ways. Someone reported the fight and the boys were called into the office. They were both handcuffed and given the "scare tactic" cops love to give potential juvenile delinquents. Threats of the diversion center were made.

The boys were both suspended for a week. The difference between me and my young friend's family? I would have had my lawyer crawling up their asses. His father gave him a good whipping for causing such trouble for him.

:mad:


Your story is not unique.

I experienced a similar "scare tactic" employed by the cops when I was in High school.

Children, and teenagers are the most oppressed citizens in America today. I, for one, am pissed off about it.

[Mendor]

Originally posted by Zep
Gee, diddums for them.My thoughts exactly. Poor oppressed kids.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist


They seem to have opinions on those issues:

here (http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRightsList.cfm?c=156)

and

here (http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRightslist.cfm?c=158)


Thanks.


Once when I was in Jr. High, the school janitor (yeah, the freekin janitor, ya know, the guy who cleans the toilets?) told me to go to the office and change the shirt I was wearing. The reason? Because my shirt featured a picture of Marvin the Martian holding a ray gun. The PC brainwashed janitor said that because Marvin the Martian was holding a "gun", I needed to change my shirt. I basically told the guy to go to hell.

[Whomp]

We deal with these issues all the time. My school district despises me. (Why should they be different?)
I mortify my daughter constantly because I am unwilling to just let things slide.
Once, my daughter was involved in a situation in which a boy was stealing jewelry from his mother and distributing it to girls he liked at school.
She was dragged out of class, hauled down to the office, handcuffed, and questioned by the principal, the boy's mother, and the police. No one bothered to contact me. I found out about it from my daughter when she got home from school.
I've never been so mad!!!
Put a 10 year old child in handcuffs to scare them? Question them about an alleged crime without my being present? Involve the police in a situation involving minors without even an attempt to contact their parents?
That principal had scorch marks on his face by the time I was done. We ended up with a written letter of apology, and the principal apologized to my daughter in front of the class she was pulled out of.

Zero tolerance has done away with rational thought and the progression of consequences. Remember being in school? It used to be 1st offence = detention, 2nd offence = maybe in school suspension, THEN suspension was considered for a 3rd offence.
But with zero tolerance, there are no minor offences. A principal justified policies like this to me by stating "Well, it works! Students get to class on time when they know they'll be suspended for being late 3 times in one year." (Actual tardy policy at the high school here)
I told him that lopping their heads off would WORK, but might be a bit severe for the infraction, just like suspension is. Our students no longer have lockers, for fear of bombs, drugs and weapons. Our students cannot bring knapsacks to school to hold their books, because they could also hide weapons. They cannot wear certain clothing because teachers fear the students may be emulating or promoting “gang culture”.

I believe that for the most part, children will rise to your level of expectation. If you treat them like criminals …

Whomp!

[Tony]

Originally posted by Whomp
We deal with these issues all the time. My school district despises me. (Why should they be different?)
I mortify my daughter constantly because I am unwilling to just let things slide.
Once, my daughter was involved in a situation in which a boy was stealing jewelry from his mother and distributing it to girls he liked at school.
She was dragged out of class, hauled down to the office, handcuffed, and questioned by the principal, the boy's mother, and the police. No one bothered to contact me. I found out about it from my daughter when she got home from school.
I've never been so mad!!!



Thats left-wing tyranny for you.

Don't you know whomp, they know whats best for your children, not you. How dare you question their authority. :mad:

[Whomp]

Geeez! What was I thinking!?!

I'm gonna have to run down and beg forgiveness right away!
Maybe they have some children I can beat ... um ... I mean administer corporeal punishment to ... as a penance.

[Yahweh]

Well, I've never been one to bow down to authrority of "this kind". I would never allow myself to give in to a dress code (I'm a teen rebel alright :rolleyes:...). Hell yeah, I'm going to wear a black hoodie, extremely baggy pants, and keep my shirt untucked just like I always do... then I'll get expelled.

My school has a policy where 10 (that number is only a guess) suspensions in whatever given time = Recommendation for Expulsion.

One word sums up this Zero Tolerance dress code: STUPID!

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Tony
Thats left-wing tyranny for you.

Don't you know whomp, they know whats best for your children, not you. How dare you question their authority. :mad:
It all makes sense now! Hagelluya!

I'm not only going to dryclean my drycleanables, I'm going to iron my socks and show off my classiness by struttin' with a cane (sans cane, its a weapon) like I own the place because I'm happy to be in school now that I've figured it out!.

[Zep]

So much ANGST over what people WEAR, for goodness sake! Since when did school get to be a fashion parade? It's for LEARNING in!!!

Build a bridge and get OVER it, people...

[Boo]

um, zep?
I am neither anxious nor aprehensive about what my daughter wears.
Angst?
You are right, however, in that she is there to learn.
So what possible difference could it make what she wears while she's doing it?

[tim]

Eeee, you young 'uns don't know your born! Let me tell you, when I were a lad...................
Actually things are a lot more relaxed than when I went to school. We had to wear white shirt, school tie, school blazer and (deeply mortified sigh) grey SHORTS until we were 13. Oh, and a peaked cap until we were 15. If you were seen out of school at lunchtime and weren't in full uniform - immediate detention. And this was a state school. Other punishments included Saturday morning detention, impositions (a two page essay on things like "A Feather" or "The Inside of a Ping-Pong Ball") or the cane. Bloody hell, that hurt!
The best days of my life!

[Luciana]

I hated the mandatory school uniform when I was a kid. It consisted of dark-colored tennis shoes (any brand would do), a pair of black or blue jeans and a T-Shirt with the school logo.

But nowadays I think to myself - uniforms serve two good purposes: one, they are cheaper for parents and two, it diminishes the competition for "better" or more fashionable clothes. For example, my private school offered many grants for poorer kids, and how could they possibly keep up regarding clothing choices if not for the uniform? Yep, students could express their individuality, but not much. Therefore, even the cliques were somehow less defined. There could be no goths or hippies or whatever. A goth makeup over jeans would be ridiculous. If a kid wants to wear that, it won't be at school.

There's already so much competition in this world, I don't think that adding "clothing" to this is healthy in any way. It only helps to form another generation of avid consumers. Make-up, in a school??? Unheard of. I remember seeing a Seventeen magazine which give tips on make-up kits girls should keep at lockers, and Iwas flabbergasted. We never had lockers, an make-up kits?? Lipstick, at best.

Uniform was mandatory. If we didn't comply, the school would send a letter to parents. That was enough in 99% of the cases. If that wasn't enough, then the kid wouldn't be allowed to enter the school unless in uniform, and the parents would be notified by letter and phone call. More than once I had to go home and change, and only then I could enter the school. That's because I wore a sweater without the school T-shirt under. But it was never a big deal.

[kittynh]

here's a real school this was dress down day....heheheheheheh

that's Kitten in the red, when she was just a baby....

[kittynh]

I've posted the girls wearing the cute sailor uniforms at Kittens high school...heheheheheheheheheheheheh

http://www.westoverschool.org/alumsplash.html

please note they don't show many pictures of the school uniform, because if most girls saw it right off they'd never apply!

[UnrepentantSinner]

Those skirts are showing waaaaay to much leg. And the sweaters should be done up not left open seductively.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Boo
um, zep?
I am neither anxious nor aprehensive about what my daughter wears.
Angst?
You are right, however, in that she is there to learn.
So what possible difference could it make what she wears while she's doing it? Theoretically, I agree. And would that children, especially girls, have an adult's disregard for clothing appropriateness versus the situation. That is, that it would make no difference what they wear at school.

HOWEVER, teenagers ARE usually going through that stage of personal identification, that process of defining themselves in the world, and dress is a very important part of that process. And in a school situation they are being allowed to see this as being more important than the reason they are ACTUALLY there for - learning. That is why I defined it previously as a "fashion parade" - they get more intent on social identification and "dressing cool" and "lookin' good" than learning.

There's plenty of time for fashion OUTSIDE of school, I feel. Inside school, like the army in a way (and I am only applying this to fashion, not anything else!), if they all look similar by having to wear the same uniform then they can forget about the fashion diversion and concentrate on the other, more important stuff.

Or perhaps I'm just a fuddy ol' duddy!!! :)

[Glory]

Originally posted by Zep

There's plenty of time for fashion OUTSIDE of school, I feel. Inside school, like the army in a way (and I am only applying this to fashion, not anything else!), if they all look similar by having to wear the same uniform then they can forget about the fashion diversion and concentrate on the other, more important stuff.

Or perhaps I'm just a fuddy ol' duddy!!! :)

The problem of fashion does not go away once uniforms are introduced. One kid will find a way of wearing part of the uniform in a unique way and that will become cool or they will concentrate entirely on having the cool shoes or the cool hair style. Earrings become extremely important at uniform schools. Worse, they will pick on the kid who does something slightly nonconformist. You cannot get kids to disregard fashion. They are hard wired for it. Think about all the different trends they start which have nothing to do with clothes. There are cool foods, cool drinks, cool bags, cool cars, cool book covers, cool locker accessories, cool toys, even cool ways of carrying books to class. Uniforms may serve a purpose but they do not do away with the fashion diversion.

I actually believe that the school uniform simply teaches them to conform. School uniforms prepare kids at an early age to judge people by their clothes. The message is, "proper people wear what they are expected to wear and those who refuse to conform are not to be trusted." Thus, they can easily transition to their adult uniform which is determined by their jobs. There are uniforms for most jobs including those that appear not to have one. Lawyers and bankers certainly wear one. I am troubled by the notion that clothing is more important than the indvidual inside it. I think that uniforms reenforce that notion though that is the opposite of their stated purpose.

Adults judge kids by their clothes. What is the message recieved from an Eton jacket or a Harvard tie? The original purpose of school uniforms was, in part at least, to let everyone who saw your kid know that he was one of the elite. That he was better than other kids.

I agree that uniforms have some advantages such as evening things out for poorer students and yet, as I pointed out, kids find other details on which to concentrate.

"Isn't it bad enough we try to make these kids all think alike? Now we gotta make 'em all look alike too?"
-George Carlin

Glory

[Luciana]

Originally posted by Glory
[B]
The problem of fashion does not go away once uniforms are introduced. One kid will find a way of wearing part of the uniform in a unique way and that will become cool or they will concentrate entirely on having the cool shoes or the cool hair style. Earrings become extremely important at uniform schools. Worse, they will pick on the kid who does something slightly nonconformist. You cannot get kids to disregard fashion. They are hard wired for it. Think about all the different trends they start which have nothing to do with clothes. There are cool foods, cool drinks, cool bags, cool cars, cool book covers, cool locker accessories, cool toys, even cool ways of carrying books to class. Uniforms may serve a purpose but they do not do away with the fashion diversion.

They don't go away, Glory, but I'm sure they diminish the intensity of this pressure. Because if you wear the uniform ONLY, you're not in the wrong, whereas a kid with a poor fashion taste can cause a disaster of big proportions if left to choose his outfit. A poor kid can "get away" with being poor if he's wearing a uniform.

The possibilities of picking on somebody because of their choice of clothes is immense. It is, in my opinion, another source of stress. It's when you're a troubled teen and you wake up already worrying what you should wear, because if you don't, they will pick on you. With a uniform, that issue is settled already.

I actually believe that the school uniform simply teaches them to conform. School uniforms prepare kids at an early age to judge people by their clothes. The message is, "proper people wear what they are expected to wear and those who refuse to conform are not to be trusted."

Even if that's the case, I still think that the benefits outweigh the problems. There's never a 100% perfect solution anyway.

I HATED my uniform when I was a teen. But I also concede that, if not for that, my parents and other kid's would have had to spend MORE money on clothing. More visits to the mall, more incentive to consumerism. I don't think we need any more of that.

[Kilted_Canuck]

Wow, after reading this thread I love my school a whole lot more!

At my public high school, which is mostly suburbanite (as suburban as one can get in a city of 200,000) , we have a very, very lenient dress code policy. Rather than 'approved' clothing, we have a short list of forbidden clothing. This includes:

-Profanity on clothing
-Drug references on clothing (not enforced)
-Alcohol references on clothing (many beer companies give out t- shirts or hats in 18 packs of beer, but this policy is also rarely enforced)

and that's about it. The penalty for breaking any of these rules? Turning the shirt inside out and wearing it like that for the rest of the day. Untucked shirts, ragged jeans, mini-skirts (though rarely worn worn by girls, except on special occasions) and trenchcoats are all tolerated, as the principal has said she doesn't want to curb our individuality, only keep a friendly learning environment.

Our school has had only one major offence involving a student in recent memory. It involved a guy hiding in the girl's washrooms and spying on them wearing a balaclava.

I cannot imagine a school with a dress code such as the ones mentioned. I know a bunch of people that would just go insane being made to conform to what was decided by some adults at the school board.

And people wonder why Canada has a much better school system than the US, where we are obviously much more lenient on rules, and where the teacher's main objective is to help the students LEARN, rather than force them to conform.

[Eos of the Eons]

I like the learn rather than conform point.

[kittynh]

HA! It isn't Canada, it's the old the further North the better the schools system. I think Canadian systems are not any better than NH or Vermont or Minnesota. Certainly compatable with the same socio-economic group. My brother's kids go to school in Kanata, it's the same as here in NH. Well, a LOT more Asians (my nephew and neice are Asian, and raised with the Asian work ethic). They have a dress code called, "Asians don't wear belly shirts or get tattos in middle school or mom will kill you." Plus, Canada takes Asians with better bank accounts and education levels (the exodus from Hong Kong) than the US does. Hey, they took my relatives in! And they are smart and good looking if I do say so myself!

[Mendor]

Originally posted by Kilted_Canuck
I cannot imagine a school with a dress code such as the ones mentioned. How about a uniform? With a tie? A white, proper, button-up shirt? Black trousers? Sweatshirt with school crest on it? (which admittedly not many folk wear - well, specifically, I wear it, and some first years wear it)

Prefects wear blazers at my school. This is one of the reasons I elected not to try for prefectship.

Roll on university.

[Eos of the Eons]

There are very few Asians where I live. I wish there were more because I feel normal sized around them instead of like a dwarf!

Rich Asians? We have Asian gangs in places like Edmonton and Calgary, just like there are other gangs.

I think we're pulling out too many stereotypes here

[Zep]

Originally posted by Glory
The problem of fashion does not go away once uniforms are introduced. One kid will find a way of wearing part of the uniform in a unique way and that will become cool or they will concentrate entirely on having the cool shoes or the cool hair style. Earrings become extremely important at uniform schools. Worse, they will pick on the kid who does something slightly nonconformist. You cannot get kids to disregard fashion. They are hard wired for it. Think about all the different trends they start which have nothing to do with clothes. There are cool foods, cool drinks, cool bags, cool cars, cool book covers, cool locker accessories, cool toys, even cool ways of carrying books to class. Uniforms may serve a purpose but they do not do away with the fashion diversion.
Quite true, and I did point out above that kids WILL find ways to flout "the uniform rules" - it's they way they are at that age. And, to a certain extent, it IS tolerated - even the Zeplette, who goes to a private school with strong uniform rules, has ways and means of imposing her individuality within the guidelines.
Originally posted by Glory
I actually believe that the school uniform simply teaches them to conform. School uniforms prepare kids at an early age to judge people by their clothes. The message is, "proper people wear what they are expected to wear and those who refuse to conform are not to be trusted." Thus, they can easily transition to their adult uniform which is determined by their jobs. There are uniforms for most jobs including those that appear not to have one. Lawyers and bankers certainly wear one. I am troubled by the notion that clothing is more important than the indvidual inside it. I think that uniforms reenforce that notion though that is the opposite of their stated purpose.That's a more draconian point of view, really. Unfortunately, it IS true - there IS an expected degree of dress conformity required by certain business sectors that cannot be ignored. You simply cannot rock into a merchant bank looking like Eminem or P. Diddy - your job would be on (or, indeed, off) the line. This is one extreme, of course. But kids do need to learn earlier rather than later that their personal choices may, sometimes, not be allowed or be suitable or be in their best interests.

However you can just as easily say that a school uniform gives kids a sense of "team" rather than forcing conformity. Take a look at your standard teenager - the fashion imperative is often that they all try to FIT INTO a group, to look similar. And I doubt that the school football/baseball/cheerleader team wants to use "whatever took my fancy this morning" as their standard dress.

It also (and here's a possible social difference emerging) "levels the playing field", to provide equal opportunity for learning. Rich kid, poor kid, all at least would find it harder to put down the other, to find differences that lead possibly to hatred and resent.
Originally posted by Glory
Adults judge kids by their clothes. What is the message recieved from an Eton jacket or a Harvard tie? The original purpose of school uniforms was, in part at least, to let everyone who saw your kid know that he was one of the elite. That he was better than other kids.Indeed so, and no place is immune from that. However, KIDS also judge each other by their clothes, so it becomes harder to dis someone who looks like you, basically!Originally posted by Glory
I agree that uniforms have some advantages such as evening things out for poorer students and yet, as I pointed out, kids find other details on which to concentrate.

"Isn't it bad enough we try to make these kids all think alike? Now we gotta make 'em all look alike too?"
-George Carlin

Glory That's a strawman argument. Great individuality originates from many sources, and a uniform is no restriction to that. What a pity it would be, though, that a great mind might be looked over and disregarded simply because its owner wears possibly unfashionable camo pants, hoodie jackets, Oakleys and giant unlaced shoes??

[Brown]

Another dress code issue has come up. Here is a report from CNN: (http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/10/11/scarf.reut/index.html)An 11-year-old Oklahoma girl has been suspended from a public school because officials said her Muslim head scarf violates dress code policies. I found it ironic that those challenging the dress code assert the issue as one of "religious freedom." How perverse, I thought, to refer to an outdated sexist religious requirement as a matter of "religious freedom."

[Brown]

Originally posted by Glory
"Isn't it bad enough we try to make these kids all think alike? Now we gotta make 'em all look alike too?"
-George Carlin Last night, HBO reran the special in which George Carlin uttered these sentiments. Although I have great respect for George, I thought he was off base, for a couple of reasons.

First, earlier on in the same special, George ranted against children being overprotected and worshipped by their parents. Kids were being given too much latitude, he argued. But later on, he opposed school uniforms as being too restrictive. Hey, George, as far as restrictions go, uniforms are really at the non-restrictive end of the spectrum. Would you rather that Mommy and Daddy go out an buy junior the expensive shirt and the designer pants and the $250 shoes with some athlete's logo on them, because that's what junior WANTS to wear to school?

Second, dressing alike and thinking alike don't go hand in hand. I used to work with junior high school kids who all wore uniforms. These kids had some pretty good teachers. The kids didn't talk alike, they didn't behave alike, and they sure as hell didn't think alike.

[Kilted_Canuck]

Ummm, not really kitty. I hesitate to give a number, but I personally know three asians that go to my school (about 600 total students). There are many more First Nations teens, which happen to have one of the worst stereotypes here. Most of the people that go to my school are lazy white teens from mixed social classes, ranging from mid-lower class to upper-middle class. These people from entierly different backgrounds seem to not have many fights, disputes or arguements. Yeah, there are jerks and idiots here, but fights are extremely rare.

[Mendor]

The plot - well, a plot - thickens:

Uniforms 'raise school standards' (BBC) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3186886.stm)School uniforms can help to improve pupils' behaviour, says Education Minister Ivan Lewis.

Among successful schools, a common characteristic was a "strong sense of ethos", said the minister.

[Glory]

Double post.

glory

[Glory]

Originally posted by Brown
Last night, HBO reran the special in which George Carlin uttered these sentiments. Although I have great respect for George, I thought he was off base, for a couple of reasons.

I thought he was making jokes.

First, earlier on in the same special, George ranted against children being overprotected and worshipped by their parents. Kids were being given too much latitude, he argued. But later on, he opposed school uniforms as being too restrictive. Hey, George, as far as restrictions go, uniforms are really at the non-restrictive end of the spectrum. Would you rather that Mommy and Daddy go out an buy junior the expensive shirt and the designer pants and the $250 shoes with some athlete's logo on them, because that's what junior WANTS to wear to school?

I included the Carlin quote simply for humour and emphasis.

He also gave parents who have bumper stickers on their cars touting their kids' accomplishments no end of grief. I think he is smart enough to realize that when your kid comes home with a sticker proclaiming you as the proud parent of an honour roll student, you better put that thing on your car. That those who do put the stickers on their cars are doing so to inspire their children rather than to brag about them. What he does illuminate throughout his act, although not in so many words, is that there are a bunch ididots out there who have come up with new and different ways to tell us we are all failing to do right by our kids. They use both negative and positive reenforcement to ensure that our kids are all exactly the same. Yes, some of them will be soccer players and some of them will be musicians but the goal is still to churn out over acheiving, self sastified, smug little sh!ts who will support the consumerism, greed, and war mongering that the US is famous for.

I know this may sound a little far to the left for most of you, but that is what I got out Carlin's act and I do agree with it to some extent. I think he goes a little far but that is his job as a humourist. He makes his point with exageration.

Second, dressing alike and thinking alike don't go hand in hand. I used to work with junior high school kids who all wore uniforms. These kids had some pretty good teachers. The kids didn't talk alike, they didn't behave alike, and they sure as hell didn't think alike.

Uniforms do not destroy individuality all by them selves. They are simply a tool which can be used to that purpose amongst others. However, the quote does not imply that uniforms cause kids to think a like. It accuses society of trying to make the kids all think alike as well as making them dress alike.

Glory

[Brown]

Originally posted by Glory
I thought he was making jokes. Yes, of course. George's humor, unlike that of many other comics, usually makes a point. George occasionally makes jokes for the sake of making jokes, but one thing that sets him apart is that much of his comedy has a discernable theme.

I suspect that George's real target is not so much uniforms as it is uniformity in all respects, especially uniformity in thought. George was very lucky in that he attended a Catholic school that allowed him a good deal of freedom. Although there was some imposition of religious uniformity, it wasn't taken to an extreme. George had some good teachers, too, and the cover for "Class Clown" offered them thanks. Good teachers make all the difference.

By the way, I wonder how George would react to the uniformity imposed upon children in Japan? I expect he (like a lot of folks in the States) would be surprised, and perhaps appalled. Perhaps he sees the current push toward uniforms as a push toward the extreme uniformity practiced in Japan.

[Glory]

Originally posted by Zep
But kids do need to learn earlier rather than later that their personal choices may, sometimes, not be allowed or be suitable or be in their best interests.

Allowed by whom and for what reason? Suitable for what and who judges the suitability of the choice? People get really up in arms about what other people wear.

Okay, lets assume that kids need to learn to make appropriate clothing choices. How does making the decision for them help them do that?

Yes, their are reasons, some of them even good, for dressing a certain way for work. However, school is not work. School is the place where one is judged by their merits not their appearance. Ther is plenty of time to learn the value of conformity when one is trying to get a job. Until then I think there are more important things on which authorities can concentrate.

However you can just as easily say that a school uniform gives kids a sense of "team" rather than forcing conformity. Take a look at your standard teenager - the fashion imperative is often that they all try to FIT INTO a group, to look similar. And I doubt that the school football/baseball/cheerleader team wants to use "whatever took my fancy this morning" as their standard dress.

Kids form their own teams and devise their own uniforms. Their comaraderie stems from shared interests and simmilar attitudes rather than the coincidence of their landing in the same school. Dressing alike may give the illusion of comaraderie but that is the extent of it. Kids still form cliques and freeze others out. They still engage in all the behaviours that they do in their other schools. Remember Lord of the Flies. Uniform or not, the band still hangs together and hate the Jocks who hate the smart kids who hate the student union group etc...

It also (and here's a possible social difference emerging) "levels the playing field", to provide equal opportunity for learning. Rich kid, poor kid, all at least would find it harder to put down the other, to find differences that lead possibly to hatred and resent.

This may be to true to some extent.

Indeed so, and no place is immune from that. However, KIDS also judge each other by their clothes, so it becomes harder to dis someone who looks like you, basically!

Well, they manage. For instance, I know more than a few people who recall being teased for "trying to look like the cool/rich kids" "Look at so and so. She's wearing what we wear. She thinks she can be like us." Basically you get a rewording of, "you can take the boy out of the street but you can't take the street out of the boy."

That's a strawman argument. Great individuality originates from many sources, and a uniform is no restriction to that. What a pity it would be, though, that a great mind might be looked over and disregarded simply because its owner wears possibly unfashionable camo pants, hoodie jackets, Oakleys and giant unlaced shoes??

You also attribute an implication to the Carlin quote that isn't there. Carlin asserts that children are being forced to think alike as well as being made to dress alike. There is no implication that one causes the other.

Glory

[Glory]

Originally posted by Brown
Yes, of course. George's humor, unlike that of many other comics, usually makes a point. George occasionally makes jokes for the sake of making jokes, but one thing that sets him apart is that much of his comedy has a discernable theme.

I suspect that George's real target is not so much uniforms as it is uniformity in all respects, especially uniformity in thought. George was very lucky in that he attended a Catholic school that allowed him a good deal of freedom. Although there was some imposition of religious uniformity, it wasn't taken to an extreme. George had some good teachers, too, and the cover for "Class Clown" offered them thanks. Good teachers make all the difference.

By the way, I wonder how George would react to the uniformity imposed upon children in Japan? I expect he (like a lot of folks in the States) would be surprised, and perhaps appalled. Perhaps he sees the current push toward uniforms as a push toward the extreme uniformity practiced in Japan.

I know I am appalled by it. I Consider myself lucky to have grown up listening to George. He and several other people taught me the importance of resisting conformity, of questioning authority starting with questioning the method by which authority was attained and what the ultimate goal of the authoritarian is.

Glory

[Glory]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery


They don't go away, Glory, but I'm sure they diminish the intensity of this pressure. Because if you wear the uniform ONLY, you're not in the wrong, whereas a kid with a poor fashion taste can cause a disaster of big proportions if left to choose his outfit. A poor kid can "get away" with being poor if he's wearing a uniform.

The possibilities of picking on somebody because of their choice of clothes is immense. It is, in my opinion, another source of stress. It's when you're a troubled teen and you wake up already worrying what you should wear, because if you don't, they will pick on you. With a uniform, that issue is settled already.

I just don't think that uniforms are as good an answer to the problem as has been said. Kids at uniform schools still get picked on do they not?

Even if that's the case, I still think that the benefits outweigh the problems. There's never a 100% perfect solution anyway.

Maybe so, maybe so.

I HATED my uniform when I was a teen. But I also concede that, if not for that, my parents and other kid's would have had to spend MORE money on clothing. More visits to the mall, more incentive to consumerism. I don't think we need any more of that.

However, kids don't wear them all the time. They still need clothes for their lives outside of school and the pressure to have expensive clothes is still omnipresent. Parents have to buy the uniforms as well as the the other clothes.

Glory

[Whomp]

I think we've gotten a bit far afield.
Zep made the comment;
What a pity it would be, though, that a great mind might be looked over and disregarded simply because its owner wears possibly unfashionable camo pants, hoodie jackets, Oakleys and giant unlaced shoes??
I can't imagine a teacher overlooking a child's mind because of fashion. Or was he talking about other students? Do children really go around looking for great minds?

Regardless of my views of "Uniforms, Yes or No", my main twitch comes in with the draconian "zero tolerance" enforcement of what seem to be relatively minor rules.

Zero tolerance on issues surrounding student safety ... ok.
Anything else is counter-productive.


Whomp!

[Glory]

Originally posted by Whomp
Regardless of my views of "Uniforms, Yes or No", my main twitch comes in with the draconian "zero tolerance" enforcement of what seem to be relatively minor rules.

Zero tolerance on issues surrounding student safety ... ok.
Anything else is counter-productive.

I think zero tolerance is ridiculous under any circumstances including student safety issues. Life is full of variables and circumstances that can't be predicted. Zero tolerance policies makes it impossible to judge each situation individually. It is a recipe for injustice. It is also pure laziness disguised as an effort to be tough about discipline. It is the result of people saying, "we have to do something!", without giving any thought to the efficacy or negatiove consequences of their actions. We have already seen a kid get suspended for having a plastic knife in his lunch which his mother had included to enable him to slice up a peice of fruit. The school had a zero tolerance policy against students having weapons including knives. Relying on policies rather than common sense and judgement never works.



Glory

[Whomp]

Point!

[jimlintott]

A couple of points about school uniforms.

I am a single parent with two teenage children. I live on a tight budget. They attend school in regular everyday clothing. Uniforms would mean that I would have to purchase unique clothing with little to no use outside school. I would really be upset with having to bear this additional expense. School uniforms can mean extra stress to poorer families.

Here is a street smart tip. Do not allow your daughters to go out in public wearing school uniforms. There are a siginifacnt number of older males that find the school girl uniform to be extraordinarily erotic. These gilrs risk being harrassed, ogled and even being offered money to perform sexual acts. Of course some of this may happen anyway but the school uniform is particularly inviting.

I loathe the very idea of making everyone dress the same. I see it as an attack on personal liberty. Yes, many people wear uniforms for their profession but these are usually for identity or function. The suit and tie may be the uniform of many professions but we don't tell the bank manager what colour tie and socks to wear. He still has choice.

"You live in the freest country in the world now go get dressed the same as all the other children and go to school." School uniforms just seem unamerican.

Frankly, demanding conformity frightens me.

[arcticpenguin]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=8&u=/nm/20031016/od_nm/smoking_dc


DOMONT, France (Reuters) - French high school students are up in arms over a drive by teachers to ban some of their most cherished items, ranging from cigarettes to G-strings.
...
"We're not allowed to smoke anywhere on the school grounds any more. They treat us like babies," said Melodie Gambero, a 17-year-old student in Domont, north of Paris, who went on strike with fellow students last week against the new rules.
...
The controversial smoking rules are being introduced in many schools as teachers are also trying to ban girls from showing off thongs and bellies above their low-cut trousers, provoking angry protests from fashion-conscious adolescents.
No G-strings in high school! This is a question of civil rights.

[Glory]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=757&e=8&u=/nm/20031016/od_nm/smoking_dc


No G-strings in high school! This is a question of civil rights.

I don't like the idea of grown people thinking so much about young girls' underwear.

Glory

[Schizobunny]

Oh well. My school's dress code supports religious bigotry. It states that cothing advertising withcraft or Satanism is prohibited, but they think it is fine and dandy when Christians advertise their religion on their clothing. Then when I started a petition to get it changed one teacher said it was stupid because wiccans and Satanists support murder. Then I mentioned that that is not true, and that the crusades and whitch trials were both Christian things and I got glared at.

[jj]

Originally posted by Tony
The government has no right dictating what American citizens can and cant wear. Where's the ACLU in this injustice?

What's wrong, Tony, why don't you tell us your opinion?

So, what do YOU think should they do with people for untucked shirts?

What's YOUR opinion?

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Schizobunny
Oh well. My school's dress code supports religious bigotry. It states that cothing advertising withcraft or Satanism is prohibited, but they think it is fine and dandy when Christians advertise their religion on their clothing. Then when I started a petition to get it changed one teacher said it was stupid because wiccans and Satanists support murder. Then I mentioned that that is not true, and that the crusades and whitch trials were both Christian things and I got glared at.


When will people understand that satan isn't anything to do with wicca? That satan wasn't even part of any religion except christian. I don't know a thing about satanists, except that most aren't murderers and don't support it.

How does one "support" murder? That sounds so idiotic.

Your school is full of ignorants, and I'm glad there's some great people like you who know the difference between wiccan gods and satan.

[Tony]

Originally posted by jj


So, what do YOU think should they do with people for untucked shirts?

What's YOUR opinion?


I thought that was obvious, I am against dress codes.


What should they do with people with untucked shirts? Nothing.