Help! My child is a troother!

[applecorped]

What would you do if you had a child, under the age of eighteen, that completely believed that 9/11 was a conspiracy? How would you handle it? What would you say? How would you feel knowing they were spreading it around to his/her friends?

[I Ratant]

I's start with asking for the evidence they use, and then look at that evidence, pointing out the problems with it.
Do this with enough of the evidence, and maybe they'll begin to think about the rest of it, and look for other reasons themselves.

[WildCat]

First thing, find their dope stash.

[gumboot]

Well given they were my child, they would have been raised to think critically about anything presented to them, thus a little prodding from me would quickly lead them to unravel the lies.

:D

[Pato2747]

I's start with asking for the evidence they use, and then look at that evidence, pointing out the problems with it.
Do this with enough of the evidence, and maybe they'll begin to think about the rest of it, and look for other reasons themselves.

I second this. And you should do it quick, before it spreads to his/her friends.

[A W Smith]

his/her frontal lobe is not fully developed yet (http://www.captus.org/Western/news/events/documents/brain.ppt#10)

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm89/AWSmith1955/frontallobedevelopment.jpg

[Blender Head]

Cull them, that's the NWO wants you to do.

[AZCat]

What would you do if you had a child, under the age of eighteen, that completely believed that 9/11 was a conspiracy? How would you handle it? What would you say? How would you feel knowing they were spreading it around to his/her friends?

When I was a child I had many stupid beliefs. Part of growing up is learning how to separate the wheat from the chaff. Parents can teach critical thinking skills. I think this would be a good opportunity to do so.

[Björn Toulouse]

1. Ask from where this ideation came and provide alternative observations.

2. Wait for him/her to mature.

3. Beat the hell out of him/her before reaching majority.

4. Begin with #1, forget #3, and if necessary, endure #2.

[fullflavormenthol]

Well, firstly come down. It is probably an expression of teen angst against society, and I had similiar opinions when I was a kid. Of course I was more communistic, but now I am a Libertarian; so things do change a little bit.

I think the best thing is to expose them to real life things that governments have done bad, for example the holocaust. Then talk with them about people who say the holocaust was fake. By doing this, hopefully you can make them see the bad logic used by truthers. Then hopefully they will realize that the same people who speak about the holocaust being fake, "American Free Press" are the same ones who started 9-11 truth.

I will level with you and everyone here. Until about a month ago I was a 9-11 truther myself. Then someone started a fight with me about Zeitgeist. I had watched it and ignored it, because I am a hobbyist in the study of religion; and a student of cultural communications. The fighting with Zeitgeist fans forced me to really look at the claims of both Zeitgeist and Acharya S whose writings were the inspiration for the first part of the movie. I then realized the bad logic being used, BUT I also saw the same logic in the truth movement. This led me to really look at things, and I realized that the truth movement is a big lie, and run by hucksters who only want my "donations" to support their "cause".

Maybe tell him that Dylan Avery was a wanna be film maker who wrote a fictional script about a bunch of people discovering the "truth" of 9-11; then suddenly he begins to "understand" the truth. The movement is full of hucksters, and maybe he just needs to realize this.

[Caper]

My advice. Let him stay up late and watch nothing but infomercials...... Then let him spend his hard earned money on some get rich quick scheme... or something that will make him an instant speed reader.... or coral calcium..... or whatever. Let him get stung in the pocket book by charlatans....... That will help develop the critical thinking skills.

[fullflavormenthol]

My advice. Let him stay up late and watch nothing but infomercials...... Then let him spend his hard earned money on some get rich quick scheme... or something that will make him an instant speed reader.... or coral calcium..... or whatever. Let him get stung in the pocket book by charlatans....... That will help develop the critical thinking skills.
Second! He just needs to learn from the mistakes.

[Caper]

I will level with you and everyone here. Until about a month ago I was a 9-11 truther myself. Then someone started a fight with me about Zeitgeist.

Really? It's not often I see people that have drank the koolaide and came back. What would say was the number 1 reason that brought you into the movement in the 1st place? Bush hatred?

[defaultdotxbe]

Second! He just needs to learn from the mistakes.
this could backfire, it may merely convince him the mainstream media is in on the conspiracy to keep him poor and stupid

[A W Smith]

My advice. Let him stay up late and watch nothing but infomercials...... Then let him spend his hard earned money on some get rich quick scheme... or something that will make him an instant speed reader.... or coral calcium..... or whatever. Let him get stung in the pocket book by charlatans....... That will help develop the critical thinking skills.


yes lots of infomercials!

6ZhMfzc9RbU
JMYxPqCfA0E

[fullflavormenthol]

this could backfire, it may merely convince him the mainstream media is in on the conspiracy to keep him poor and stupid
Yeah I see your point. Hell I was convinced because of nonsense that I knew was false, but I mean that could backfire too. With me it just happened to be something I knew a lot about.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I think the best thing is to expose them to real life things that governments have done bad, for example the holocaust. Then talk with them about people who say the holocaust was fake. By doing this, hopefully you can make them see the bad logic used by truthers. Then hopefully they will realize that the same people who speak about the holocaust being fake, "American Free Press" are the same ones who started 9-11 truth.

This does not make logic.


Governments do do bad things.

People lie about governments not doing bad things that they did.

Therefore the government did not do 9/11, and people lie about the government doing 9/11.


You have the example in reverse and this will confuse the child.


:gnome:

[Reality Believer]

Propose a simple question:

How can you disagree with the "official story", if you don't fully understand it first? If someone was to attack the values of his favorite video game, he would probably come up with the same argument (You don't understand it!)

Then offer to explain the "official story" with the resources found here and in the links.

[GodisEnergy]

ah it was an inside job ex predient Cossiglia said in italys top newspaper that it was well known in intelligence agencies throughout europe that it was done by CIA and Mossad.
What do you think intel uses this site as reseach..

[16.5]

ah it was an inside job ex predient Cossiglia said in italys top newspaper that it was well known in intelligence agencies throughout europe that it was done by CIA and Mossad.
What do you think intel uses this site as reseach..

GiE: for about the 50th time: use the search feature! That quote has been debunked on this site a dozen times. HE WAS MOCKING TRUTHERS LIKE YOU!!!

Do you only read truther web sites???

[PhantomWolf]

GiE: for about the 50th time: use the search feature![/search]

Good luck with that at the moment.

[quote]That quote has been debunked on this site a dozen times. HE WAS MOCKING TRUTHERS LIKE YOU!!!

Exactly, he didn't say he believed it, he said his political opponents did, ie that his political opponents were dumb.

Do you only read truther web sites???

It's called research dah...

[Björn Toulouse]

ah it was an inside job ex predient Cossiglia said in italys top newspaper that it was well known in intelligence agencies throughout europe that it was done by CIA and Mossad.
What do you think intel uses this site as reseach..


Thanks for referencing that. You just did this guy's kid more good than anyone else.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1289047352438cee96.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=9153)

What a maroon!

[Jonnyclueless]

Sell the kid on the black market.

[GodisEnergy]

So he tells italys best newspaper a joke and its reported as news...
Yea i guess he was being Sarcastic when he was talking about operation Gladio :) :jaw-dropp
and when he said in 2001 that the attacks were to advanced to be done by al qaeda.
Finally yea he maybe right wing conspiracy theorist usually are..

[Pardalis]

^
As I said in another thread, our truthers don't even bother to make coherent posts anymore.

So depressing.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

As I said in another thread, our truthers don't even bother to make coherent posts anymore.

So depressing.

Nevermind.

[The Silver Shadow]

Give him the entire 9/11 Commission report to read, talk to him about the NIST report, ask him what he thinks the best arguments are, refer him to Gravy's sites, introduce him to Formula 1, and show him how real life conspiracies and scandals have been blown wide open with only a couple of people in the know and I think you should be good to go.

One more thing: ask him why he thinks that Al-Qaeda hasn't declared their innocence in these attacks, almost 7 years after the fact.

[Pardalis]

Not sure a troofer made a post in this thread. :confused:

GodisEnergy.

We've got probably the most sloppy bunch or twoofers posting here these days. I mean, grammatically, logically, it's utter gibberish. Nothing to sink our teeth into...

I WANT MY MONEY BACK!

[Walter Ego]

yes lots of infomercials!

6ZhMfzc9RbU
JMYxPqCfA0E


Those flex-o-ladders work real good. I've got three of them. :D

[fullflavormenthol]

This does not make logic.


Governments do do bad things.

People lie about governments not doing bad things that they did.

Therefore the government did not do 9/11, and people lie about the government doing 9/11.


You have the example in reverse and this will confuse the child.


:gnome:
Thats not what I meant, but in the interest of not arguing with the point I agree with I will just say sorry for the misunderstanding.

[eromitlab]

To answer the OP... I would probably agree with them. Reverse psychology, you know? At least for a little while; then I'd show them how truthers obfuscate real truth to create their fake truth snake oil. Stuff like their mined quotes, or the discarded theories (something ludicrous, like the pods in LCv1), or the utter fabrications.

GodisEnergy.

We've got probably the most sloppy bunch or twoofers posting here these days. I mean, grammatically, logically, it's utter gibberish. Nothing to sink our teeth into...

I WANT MY MONEY BACK!

If you think it's bad here, go over to reddit. All the old debunked and hopelessly stupid memes and the appeals to authority are still alive; and some of the new ones too, like Judy's billiard ball theory. JREF is an oasis of sanity by comparison.

[fullflavormenthol]

To answer the OP... I would probably agree with them. Reverse psychology, you know? At least for a little while; then I'd show them how truthers obfuscate real truth to create their fake truth snake oil. Stuff like their mined quotes, or the discarded theories (something ludicrous, like the pods in LCv1), or the utter fabrications.



If you think it's bad here, go over to reddit. All the old debunked and hopelessly stupid memes and the appeals to authority are still alive; and some of the new ones too, like Judy's billiard ball theory. JREF is an oasis of sanity by comparison.
That is why I am here. I got pushed here after trying to argue on youtube of all places, and I left digg when I was a truther; should probably go back and apologize to some of the people I personally attacked who were trying to stop me from spreading my nonesense.

Speaking of which. I am sorry to the people here for being one of the idiots who bought into the truth movement and encouraging people to watch crap like Loose Change. It was just that it was so easy to believe it without reading into the real information and challenging myself intellectually.

[GodisEnergy]

You guys could debunk anything.Your like a crazy Nihilistic Cult

[jhunter1163]

Why, yes, we are. We don't believe in anything on faith. We demand EVIDENCE.

[GodisEnergy]

Heres a favourite skeptic line " if there were a conspiracy then it would be exposed"
you guys expect jim and janet from down the road to be involved ,but the only people involved are at the highest levels of secret societys there are.these people are so evil ,they make the Russian mob **** their pants,noone dare speak their name For they wont kill you theyll let you suffer when everyone you know dies or is torturted brutally.

[uk_dave]

Heres a favourite skeptic line " if there were a conspiracy then it would be exposed"
Well it does have to be massive to encompass every 'truther' fantasy out there.

you guys expect jim and janet from down the road to be involved ,but the only people involved are at the highest levels of secret societys there are.
Evidence?
these people are so evil ,they make the Russian mob **** their pants
Evidence?
,noone dare speak their name For they wont kill you theyll let you suffer when everyone you know dies or is torturted brutally.
Evidence?

You know, you aint Picard and just saying it aint gonna "make it so".:D

[Pardalis]

Seriously guys, I think GodisEnergy isn't in high school yet.

[Slayhamlet]

Heres a favourite skeptic line " if there were a conspiracy then it would be exposed"
you guys expect jim and janet from down the road to be involved ,but the only people involved are at the highest levels of secret societys there are.these people are so evil ,they make the Russian mob **** their pants,noone dare speak their name For they wont kill you theyll let you suffer when everyone you know dies or is torturted brutally.

Then why aren't any of the kingpins of the "Truth" movement dead or incarcerated yet? And obviously thousands of conspiracy theorists do dare to speak their name (despite their nonexistence) and do so quite openly.

[PhantomWolf]

:dl: :dl: :dl:

You know, what I think is really funny is that someone that apparantly believes that there are these so evil people would kill anyone that looks at them wrong then goes and blabs that he knows all about them on the Internet. I mean come on, if they'd kill a whistlblower in the blink of an eye, what would they do to some kid on the net, ROFLMAO!

[chillzero]

Everybody stop.... wait... reconsider.

You are being neatly led off topic again by someone who has dropped irrelevant posts in the middle of a thread. Don't respond to these. As a mod, they won't be moved just now because both topics raised are already under discussion elsewhere here - several times.

Please stay on topic - handling critical thinking in youth, or perhaps how to deal with kids having different opinions from you.

Personally I think the first few answers were good - discuss the topic clearly and calmly. Identify what they feel are the most important points, and talk them through. Encourage critical thinking, and use of logic backed up with proper research.

[DC]

What would you do if you had a child, under the age of eighteen, that completely believed that 9/11 was a conspiracy? How would you handle it? What would you say? How would you feel knowing they were spreading it around to his/her friends?

i would ask them if they did read/listen/watch both sides of the debate.
and Talk with them about it :)

[uk_dave]

Under the age of 18? I'd agree with him/her, wear a black 'investigoogle 9-11' t-shirt as often as possible, put up a wall planner with forthcoming 'truth' movement meetings clearly marked (along with weather forecasts....in case it looks like rain) and start saying "Bro" alot. That'll soon make them lose interest.

Works for 'gangsta rap', 'myspace' and methamphetamine too (though the last one can be a bit tough on the old liver).

[deep]

What would you do if you had a child, under the age of eighteen, that completely believed that 9/11 was a conspiracy? How would you handle it? What would you say? How would you feel knowing they were spreading it around to his/her friends?


I would get used to it, because the number of people around you who believe the US Government is lying about 9/11 is only going to grow.

Right now, you're incapable of considering the possibility that the US Government is lying about 9/11 on such a grand scale, which is why you believe (more or less) that all truthers are insane. Once you're able to consider that possibility, then and only then can you look back and evaluate all of the evidence objectively.

I would hope that you consider your own child to be of sound mind - so maybe you should take this as a wake-up call to start considering the possibility that he or she is correct.

[stateofgrace]

I would get used to it, because the number of people around you who believe the US Government is lying about 9/11 is only going to grow.

Right now, you're incapable of considering the possibility that the US Government is lying about 9/11 on such a grand scale, which is why you believe (more or less) that all truthers are insane. Once you're able to consider that possibility, then and only then can you look back and evaluate all of the evidence objectively.

I would hope that you consider your own child to be of sound mind - so maybe you should take this as a wake-up call to start considering the possibility that he or she is correct.

Good idea, alternatively you could explain that there is the possibility that he or she is incorrect and is being fed lies from a tiny fringe group who have yet to produce a shred of evidence to support any one of their silly claims.

[EvilBiker]

I would get used to it, because the number of people around you who believe the US Government is lying about 9/11 is only going to grow.


...like a dead dog lying in the sun, with the same unpleasant side effects. :p

Some things you just have to bury. The 9/11 truth movement is one of those things.

[applecorped]

I would get used to it, because the number of people around you who believe the US Government is lying about 9/11 is only going to grow.

Right now, you're incapable of considering the possibility that the US Government is lying about 9/11 on such a grand scale, which is why you believe (more or less) that all truthers are insane. Once you're able to consider that possibility, then and only then can you look back and evaluate all of the evidence objectively.

I would hope that you consider your own child to be of sound mind - so maybe you should take this as a wake-up call to start considering the possibility that he or she is correct.

You are frightening.

[MikeyMetz]

This is a tough one, considering the age of the person in question. As an ex-truther, I consider myself really lucky to have gone through my troofer phase at just the right time. I was about to enter my super-senior year in college. (a conscious decision I made as a troofer to put off having to deal with the real world)

My parents were actually pretty decent about my troofer phase. My father, a volunteer fireman no less, did not agree with me but did support my activist efforts. I made him sit through an Alex Jones documentary and he had logical responses in regard to the collapse of the buildings and how the warnings from other countries disproved the whole MIHOP idea. My mom bought it hook, line, and sinker, but she eventually came to her senses after she saw the History Channel program. I think this actually helped me see the light eventually because if they had overly bashed the ideas, I might have been more inclined to rebel against my parents.

I'd say there's a fine line between coming out against his/her (probably his) beliefs. Sometimes, you just gotta let kids find out for themselves. Unfortunately, this might get hard to watch as a parent. I was absolutely miserable as a troofer, waiting for doomsday to come. I wasted hundreds of dollars on organizing meeting, printing pamphlets, and copying DVDs. As mentioned earlier, I even postponed my future to await this doomsday scenario Jones kept talking about.

Here are some things that helped me come to my senses:
- Quitting pot
- Talking to a good friend I knew before I joined the Movement. He was the one to initially start talking me out of all the doomsday stuff, asking me logical questions like, "what exactly is going to be different next year?" Funny story-- I asked him what he thought would happen after the dreaded next attack. He calmly responded, "Probably get out of work early that day. Back to work the next day."
- Checking out "debunker" sites like Screw Loose Change and watching the video of the same name
- Taking a "Strategic Management" management class that put emphasis on critical thinking.
- Taking a class on social movements, which completely broke down the psychological and sociological aspects of different movements and put the troof movement into perspective.

Hope that could help. If I could simplify it, I would say to play it by ear and let history take its course for now. Hopefully, he/she will come to their senses or merely get bored by the dying movement. Only when you see your child start taking drastic measures in throwing away their life on it should you intervene.

[deep]

You are frightening.


That's because what I'm saying is true, and you know it (at least at some level of consciousness).

I'm not making an unreasonable claims - if you were capable of considering the possibility that the US Government is lying about 9/11 on such a large scale, you wouldn't believe that truthers are insane for what they believe.

I like Coke, but I don't believe that Pepsi drinkers are insane, because I've tasted Pepsi and I can consider the possibility that people may like how it tastes.

On the other hand, I believe that any person who drinks battery acid is insane, because I'm incapable of considering the possibility that it tastes good. Battery acid probably isn't the best example, but I'm not trying to gross anybody out here.. :)

[uk_dave]

That's because what I'm saying is true, and you know it (at least at some level of consciousness).

I'm not making an unreasonable claims - if you were capable of considering the possibility that the US Government is lying about 9/11 on such a large scale, you wouldn't believe that truthers are insane for what they believe.



And if you were capable of considering that the official account is actually backed up by evidence and is based upon extensive investigation by many different agencies and involving many hundreds of people, and that the main political opposition in the US is not interested in the 9-11 CT and neither is the worlds media, professional bodies etc, then you and your ilk wouldn't make such fools of yourselves with your blind faith in the pronouncements of people who don't have a clue about which they speak.

[EvilBiker]

That's because what I'm saying is true, and you know it (at least at some level of consciousness).

I'm not making an unreasonable claims - if you were capable of considering the possibility that the US Government is lying about 9/11 on such a large scale, you wouldn't believe that truthers are insane for what they believe.


The possibility has been considered, and in light of the evidence, rejected. I don't believe the truthers are insane in general, just misguided and led on by charlatans who use pseudoscience to push their agendas, be it selling DVDs, getting recognition on Youtube or just trying be feel superior among peers.

I like Coke, but I don't believe that Pepsi drinkers are insane, because I've tasted Pepsi and I can consider the possibility that people may like how it tastes.


Bad example. In this case you make your own decision by tasting each product, effectively collecting solid, verifiable evidence for each fizzy. We have yet to see any real evidence for an inside job.

[DC]

The possibility has been considered, and in light of the evidence, rejected. I don't believe the truthers are insane in general, just misguided and led on by charlatans who use pseudoscience to push their agendas, be it selling DVDs, getting recognition on Youtube or just trying be feel superior among peers.




Bad example. In this case you make your own decision by tasting each product, effectively collecting solid, verifiable evidence for each fizzy. We have yet to see any real evidence for an inside job.

im not so sure witch side uses pseudo sience, especially after reading Bazant^^

[MikeyMetz]

im not so sure witch side uses pseudo sience, especially after reading Bazant^^

Let me help you. Here's an example of pseudoscience:

"No, you don't have to have a theory." - David Ray Griffin

Scientific Method: A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]

[Dave Rogers]

I would tell her, "That's the sort of thing your Uncle Stephen would believe."

Worked for me.

Dave

[fuelair]

You guys could debunk anything.Your like a crazy Nihilistic CultWe do not debunk Quantum Theory (because it works, so far). We don't debunk Newton's Laws of Motion, the laws of Thermodynamics, MRI, evolution, etc (because they work), What we debunk is stupidity/error : religion (no evidence), psychic powers(no evidence), ID/creationism (no evidence), conspiracy theories* WHERE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF A CONSPIRACY, fake/fraudulant/bad science, etc.






*there are and have been conspiracies, nobody argues that - but most of them are unimportant or known BECAUSE if they get big enough, they leave enough real evidence to discover them and prove they are real conspiracies (like, say, Watergate - which was way smaller than 9/11 would have to be and was spotted and proved with the utmost simplicity).

[Nick227]

What would you do if you had a child, under the age of eighteen, that completely believed that 9/11 was a conspiracy? How would you handle it? What would you say? How would you feel knowing they were spreading it around to his/her friends?

I would encourage them to go into it totally. Tell them to check out all the stories. Or otherwise be not so bothered or interested. Kids need to rebel against the viewpoints of their parents. It's part of growing up. If you start to really push them to come up with hard evidence, the way people do on this list, you may create a bit of a barrier between you. Good to be aware of this, in case that's not what you want to do.

Nick

[applecorped]

Wouldn't you be concerned with your child passing these lies to other people? Shouldn't it be cut off quickly? I understand the position of letting it go and hoping interest will eventually be lost, but at what point do you say "this has gone to far", at that point it may be to late to try and reason with someone.

[Swing Dangler]

I's start with asking for the evidence they use, and then look at that evidence, pointing out the problems with it.
Do this with enough of the evidence, and maybe they'll begin to think about the rest of it, and look for other reasons themselves.

Amazing. That is what skeptics of the official story have done which of course has led to the truth movement and sites like this: Patriots Question 9/11. (http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/)

And to the author of the OP: Don't you find it rather difficult to explain to your child why articles like these exist-
Twenty-five U.S. Military Officers Challenge Official Account of 9/11 – Official Account of 9/11 “Impossible”, “A Bunch of Hogwash”, “Total B.S.”, “Ludicrous”, “A Well-Organized Cover-up”, “A White-Washed Farce”
Jan. 14, 2008 Article on OpEdNews

Eight U.S. State Department Veterans Challenge the Official Account of 9/11 – Official Account of 9/11 "Flawed", "Absurd", "Totally Inadequate", "a Cover-up"
Jan. 5, 2008 Article on OpEdNews

Seven Senior Federal Engineers and Scientists Call for New 9/11 Investigation – Official Account of 9/11 "Impossible", "Hogwash", "Fatally Flawed"
Dec. 13, 2007 Article on OpEdNews

Eight Senior Republican Administration Appointees Challenge Official Account of 9/11 – "Not Possible", "a Whitewash", "False"
Dec. 4, 2007 Article on OpEdNews

Or why professionals like this make statements...
Robert David Steele (Vivas) – U.S. Marine Corps infantry and intelligence officer for twenty years. Second-ranking civilian (GS-14) in U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence from 1988 - 1992 and a member of the Adjunct Faculty of Marine Corps University. Also former clandestine services case officer with the CIA. 25-year U.S. military and intelligence career. Currently Founder and CEO of OSS.net and a proponent of Open Source Intelligence.
"I am forced to conclude that 9/11 was at a minimum allowed to happen as a pretext for war, and I am forced to conclude that there is sufficient evidence to indict (not necessarily convict) Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and others of a neo-conservative neo-Nazi coup d'etat and kick-off of the clash of civilizations. ...

This is, without question, the most important modern reference on state-sponsored terrorism, and also the reference that most pointedly suggests that select rogue elements within the US Government, most likely led by Dick Cheney with the assistance of George Tenet, Buzzy Kronguard, and others close to the Wall Street gangs, are the most guilty of state-sponsored terrorism....

I sit here, a 54-year old, liberally educated, two graduate degrees, war college, a life overseas, 150 IQ or so, the number #1 Amazon reviewer for non-fiction, a former Marine Corps infantry officer, a former CIA clandestine case officer, founder of the Marine Corps Intelligence Center, and I have to tell anyone who cares to read this: I believe it. I believe it enough to want a full investigation that passes the smell test of the 9/11 families as well as objective outside observers."

Seven CIA Veterans Challenge 9/11 Commission Report – Official Account of 9/11 a "Joke" and a "Cover-up"
Sep. 23, 2007 PDF Version Article on OpEdNews



Perhaps the author of the OP should sit down with your child and layout the information on both sides and determine why experts from the site above question the official story.

[uk_dave]

..................I sit here, a 54-year old, liberally educated, two graduate degrees, war college, a life overseas, 150 IQ or so, the number #1 Amazon reviewer for non-fiction, a former Marine Corps infantry officer, a former CIA clandestine case officer, founder of the Marine Corps Intelligence Center, and I have to tell anyone who cares to read this: I believe it. I believe it enough to want a full investigation that passes the smell test of the 9/11 families as well as objective outside observers."



Now that there is truly amazing.

[Dave Rogers]

Perhaps the author of the OP should sit down with your child and layout the information on both sides and determine why experts from the site above question the official story.

I'd encourage that approach. Having looked through both sides of the argument in considerable detail and decided for myself that the arguments of all the above experts, generally outside their areas of expertise, are without merit, I'm quite confident that a well-educated child with a mind that isn't already made up would come to the same conclusion.

Dave

[ZouPrime]

applecorped:
Everyone is free to believe anything on this planet. I wouldn't interfere with your son willingness to believe in 9/11 conspiracies, it's not worth it. Let him talk about it and participate in the "movement" as much as he wants. It's just a phase, and he'll grow out of it by himself.

[funk de fino]

Perhaps the author of the OP should sit down with your child and layout the information on both sides and determine why experts from the site above question the official story.

Or perhaps he should just let him read all of your posts and see what poppycock is spread by the guys on his side.

Smackdown city is a sore place to inhabit but you seem to like the neighbourhood?

[Björn Toulouse]

....I sit here, a 54-year old.....

I thought you were 55.

[Swing Dangler]

I thought you were 55.

Reading comprehension problems again?

Robert David Steele (Vivas) is 54. It was his statement as indicated by the " marks.

[Pardalis]

Amazing. That is what skeptics of the official story have done which of course has led to the truth movement and sites like this: Patriots Question 9/11. (http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/)

One would think that with all these people, another investigation would have gone off the ground by now...

Why the stalling?

[chillzero]

Reading comprehension problems again?

Robert David Steele (Vivas) is 54. It was his statement as indicated by the " marks.

To be fair... you could have put the quoted section in [ quote ] boxes to make it clearer. And, it's proper use of " marks when continued speach carried over more than one paragraph, to add more " at the start of each new paragraph.

[sts60]

As others have said, don't simply bash your son for falling for this tripe. Engage with him. Ask him questions. Ask him which things he believe - is he a no-planer, for example? Ask him for details of how something might have been done, and compare it to the opinions of the vast majority of experts. Ask him exactly how the gubmint supposedly pulled off the vast conspiracy so perfectly and simultaneously left all these obvious clues for laymen to discover. Point out to him that "the government" is not some monolithic entity, and is not very good at keeping big secrets - look how secret activities like "extraordinary rendition" are all over the press. Ask him to compare the alleged aims of the conspiracy (pipelines across Afghanistan, big cheap oil from Iraq, etc.) to the reality (no and no, plus an incredibly unpopular Administration). Ask him why the gubmint could pull all this off, yet couldn't plant some WMDs in Iraq to justify the invasion. Just keep the dialog going, and gently expose him to the absurdities and contradictions of the conspiracist claims.

[applecorped]

Trying to reason with a teenager is like walking blindfolded through a mine field, you never when you're going to set something off and have it blow up in your face.

[Nick227]

Wouldn't you be concerned with your child passing these lies to other people? Shouldn't it be cut off quickly? I understand the position of letting it go and hoping interest will eventually be lost, but at what point do you say "this has gone to far", at that point it may be to late to try and reason with someone.

It's up to you. I mean, personally, my girlfriend's teenage son is into Loose Change and seems to think the whole world is basically controlled by "old people," which in a sense is anyway right. I've told him that a lot of it seems to have been debunked now, in an offhand way.

I think you can go for the cut it off quickly approach but, to me, you need to be able to judge how much of it is just teenage rebellion, because if you try and squash rebellion totally usually I don't think it's so healthy for kids. I guess if it's really getting to be a major thing, like he's holding school demos or something then you need to confront it a bit more. I mean, from what I've seen, the MIHOP case is pretty weak really. Rationally there's not much there, so going through the evidence bit by bit will usually flush stuff out.

I've been myself pretty heavily into conspiracy stuff, quite a few years back now. Something I learnt was that the emotional pull I experienced towards the CT perspective was strongly rooted in issues I had with authority in general. I've found this to be pretty much the same with the majority of CTers I've had dealings with, and so I do tend to regard a prediliction towards CTs as just part of growing up really.

Nick

[DC]

Let me help you. Here's an example of pseudoscience:

"No, you don't have to have a theory." - David Ray Griffin

Scientific Method: A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]

does that guy claim his books are scientific work or a scientistic study?

[Alferd_Packer]

does that guy claim his books are scientific work or a scientistic study?

it are a book to make moonie!!!

[applecorped]

A PM to me from godisenergy:

hey

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know this is going to be difficult for you to digest.But the evidence for it being an inside job or having some element of inside job overwhelming.these skeptics are cultish they could debunk absolutely anything.

Firstly let me say something about the american media for a start they act like your leaders are decent people there not there criminals they could Cure the World hunger crisis with ones years Military budget !


Americans are good people but its skeptics like these who keep you from electing a decent human being.And questioning the Political process in USA ,like Bill clinton is a smart guy or something sorry if your a fan but DEPLETED URANIUM is NOT A SMART AND GOOD THING TO SHOOT ARABS WITH !


I REPEAT THEY COULD CURE HUNGER IN AFRICA WITH ONE YEARS MILITARY BUDGET,INSTEAD THEY CREATE FEAR FOR COMMUNISM OR TERRORISM BECUASE IT GIVES THEM MORE POWER.

__________________________________________________ ________________

You heard it! It is all you JREF's fault!

[DC]

it are a book to make moonie!!!

alot of thing make mooonie, like WARS

[Almo]

That is why I am here. I got pushed here after trying to argue on youtube of all places, and I left digg when I was a truther; should probably go back and apologize to some of the people I personally attacked who were trying to stop me from spreading my nonesense.

Speaking of which. I am sorry to the people here for being one of the idiots who bought into the truth movement and encouraging people to watch crap like Loose Change. It was just that it was so easy to believe it without reading into the real information and challenging myself intellectually.

Apology accepted. It takes a big person to admit this kind of thing. :)

[Sporanox]

does that guy claim his books are scientific work or a scientistic study?

Either way, he claims bad science. Playing with semantics now isn't going to save him.

alot of thing make mooonie, like WARS

No, actually, the two wars going on now have informed a lot of people as to much of the truth in the Middle East. Why do you think so many people oppose Iraq? Because they're moonies? :jaw-dropp

No.

(this is actually kind of funny because I believed in invading Iraq and believe in trying to make it work...but oh well)

Firstly let me say something about the american media for a start they act like your leaders are decent people there not there criminals they could Cure the World hunger crisis with ones years Military budget !


No.

Americans are good people but its skeptics like these who keep you from electing a decent human being.And questioning the Political process in USA ,like Bill clinton is a smart guy or something sorry if your a fan but DEPLETED URANIUM is NOT A SMART AND GOOD THING TO SHOOT ARABS WITH !

Right. Stuff you shoot into people isn't usually good for them.

I know what you're talking about with the depleted uranium though, but you're also wrong on that. If somebody does a real study that proves there's a danger of radioactivity, then fine. But that hasn't happened. Instead, we keep on hearing ridiculous anecdotes.

I REPEAT THEY COULD CURE HUNGER IN AFRICA WITH ONE YEARS MILITARY BUDGET,INSTEAD THEY CREATE FEAR FOR COMMUNISM OR TERRORISM BECUASE IT GIVES THEM MORE POWER.

Do you realize Bush has done a heck of a lot of good for Africa?

[deep]

I'd say there's a fine line between coming out against his/her (probably his) beliefs. Sometimes, you just gotta let kids find out for themselves. Unfortunately, this might get hard to watch as a parent. I was absolutely miserable as a troofer, waiting for doomsday to come. I wasted hundreds of dollars on organizing meeting, printing pamphlets, and copying DVDs. As mentioned earlier, I even postponed my future to await this doomsday scenario Jones kept talking about.


Did you ever consider a middle-ground between waiting around for doomsday & believing that 19 Muslim hijackers with box cutters outwitted a 500 billion dollar defense system?

To me, it sounds like the majority of your problem stemmed from listening to Alex Jones, instead of from your underlying beliefs at the time.

Yes, I believe that the US Government had intimate knowledge of the upcoming attack prior to 9/11, possibly even planning it themselves; however, I'm 100% confident that they felt it was the right thing to do given the circumstances. It's impossible to judge their decision any further without knowing precisely what those circumstances were, but the point I'm trying to make is that I believe the decision was free of any malicious intent.

So there's no need to build a fallout shelter or freeze-dry twelve years worth of food - the US Government is still looking out for the best long-term interests of US citizens. Sometimes, they are forced to make tough choices - choices that might not make sense right now, but will make perfect sense in 50 years when people look back (at least in theory). Why do you think so many promotions/awards were given out within the US Government after 9/11?

Regardless - glad you got things turned around. In many ways, you "renewed your faith". :D

[applecorped]

alot of thing make mooonie, like WARS

Wars also free people.

[applecorped]

Did you ever consider a middle-ground between waiting around for doomsday & believing that 19 Muslim hijackers with box cutters outwitted a 500 billion dollar defense system?

To me, it sounds like the majority of your problem stemmed from listening to Alex Jones, instead of from your underlying beliefs at the time.

Yes, I believe that the US Government had intimate knowledge of the upcoming attack prior to 9/11, possibly even planning it themselves; however, I'm 100% confident that they felt it was the right thing to do given the circumstances. It's impossible to judge their decision any further without knowing precisely what those circumstances were, but the point I'm trying to make is that I believe the decision was free of any malicious intent.

So there's no need to build a fallout shelter or freeze-dry twelve years worth of food - the US Government is still looking out for the best long-term interests of US citizens. Sometimes, they are forced to make tough choices - choices that might not make sense right now, but will make perfect sense in 50 years when people look back (at least in theory). Why do you think so many promotions/awards were given out within the US Government after 9/11?

Regardless - glad you got things turned around. In many ways, you "renewed your faith". :D

There's your problem. Beliefs aren't facts. Got any facts to support that statement?

[applecorped]

edit
Yes, I believe that the US Government had intimate knowledge of the upcoming attack prior to 9/11, possibly even planning it themselves;

Proof?

[Alferd_Packer]

Did you ever consider a middle-ground between waiting around for doomsday & believing that 19 Muslim hijackers with box cutters outwitted a 500 billion dollar defense system?

What particular part of the 500 billion dollar defense system should have stopped them?

[DC]

Wars also free people.

yes, it also kills alot ppl. but we geting OT :)

[funk de fino]

Did you ever consider a middle-ground between waiting around for doomsday & believing that 19 Muslim hijackers with box cutters outwitted a 500 billion dollar defense system?

To me, it sounds like the majority of your problem stemmed from listening to Alex Jones, instead of from your underlying beliefs at the time.

Yes, I believe that the US Government had intimate knowledge of the upcoming attack prior to 9/11, possibly even planning it themselves; however, I'm 100% confident that they felt it was the right thing to do given the circumstances. It's impossible to judge their decision any further without knowing precisely what those circumstances were, but the point I'm trying to make is that I believe the decision was free of any malicious intent.

So there's no need to build a fallout shelter or freeze-dry twelve years worth of food - the US Government is still looking out for the best long-term interests of US citizens. Sometimes, they are forced to make tough choices - choices that might not make sense right now, but will make perfect sense in 50 years when people look back (at least in theory). Why do you think so many promotions/awards were given out within the US Government after 9/11?

Regardless - glad you got things turned around. In many ways, you "renewed your faith". :D

Do you know what the defense system was designed to do? If you and I had a fight and I was armed with a box cutter and you with nothing, who do you think would win, and how bad would your injuries be?

You have your beliefs, Mikey had his. He then looked at the evidence and realised his beliefs were baloney. You have not reached stage two yet. You will one day though.

how sad, mosts people look at evidence yet all you talk about is beliefs

i believe all politicians lie or misrepresent the truth, this is far from believing that US politicians could plan and execute something that would kill nearly 3000 people from various countries, yet leave no factual evidence for anyone to find.

i also do not think they could have found thousabnds of people who keep quiet about it till the end of their days

[Björn Toulouse]

To be fair... you could have put the quoted section in [ quote ] boxes to make it clearer. And, it's proper use of " marks when continued speach carried over more than one paragraph, to add more " at the start of each new paragraph.


Thanks. I was a bit hasty in posting because a large truck was coming up my driveway and I read so quickly, I didn't even see Steele's name in the paragraph above, and I failed to notice the quotation mark at the end of the last paragraph in that quote. I thought the poster was pretending to be him. I was going to say more, but I had to check out the truck.

And he is 55, turns 56 this summer.

[Almo]

That's because what I'm saying is true, and you know it (at least at some level of consciousness).

No.

I like Coke, but I don't believe that Pepsi drinkers are insane, because I've tasted Pepsi and I can consider the possibility that people may like how it tastes.

There's something REALLY wrong with this. Pepsi is HORRIBLE.

[Astute Perspicuous]

Whelp...Sounds like someone's kid is smarter than their parent.

Maybe instead of trying to "change" the kid, you should sit down and listen, stop thinking you know it all.

It's all coming apart for you debunkers now. Muah ah ah ah ahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

The day when I am here saying "I TOLD YOU SO" is coming fast.

[Almo]

The day when I am here saying "I TOLD YOU SO" is coming fast.

PM me the "I told you so" when the truth drops. I wouldn't want to accidentally miss that.

[BillyRayValentine]

What would you do if you had a child, under the age of eighteen, that completely believed that 9/11 was a conspiracy? How would you handle it? What would you say? How would you feel knowing they were spreading it around to his/her friends?

I would whisk him or her away on some sort of month long, Outward Bound-type getaway and do my damnedest to reconnect with them. Kiddie truthers almost always fit the profile of misfits, social outcasts, etc. Of course there are exceptions, and some are simply victims of dullness (poor luck in the genetic lottery, as it were), but most seem exceedingly angry and desperate to find some measure of self-importance. This is the mindset that drives there irrationality. Trutherism is merely the symptom.

[BillyRayValentine]

Whelp...Sounds like someone's kid is smarter than their parent.

Maybe instead of trying to "change" the kid, you should sit down and listen, stop thinking you know it all.

It's all coming apart for you debunkers now. Muah ah ah ah ahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

The day when I am here saying "I TOLD YOU SO" is coming fast.

Is "that" day coming? Really?

That's interesting, because the reason I decided to revisit these boards after a 6 month hiatus was that I recently saw Jason Bermas, of Loose Change "fame" at Liberty Airport. Prior to that, I hadn't experienced a whiff of CT lunacy during the entire time. And then I see Bermas, shuffling around the airport in sweatpants and a filthy "Investigate 9/11" sweatshirt, looking like one incredibly sad sack. Not a single person gave him a second glance that I saw, and the only reason I had any idea about his identity was because of the time I'd spent here.

As I was with my own children at the time, it got me to thinking about his upbringing, and the attrocious parenting responsible for allowing him to become the disaster that he is today. Quite sad, really.

[applecorped]

Whelp...Sounds like someone's kid is smarter than their parent.

Maybe instead of trying to "change" the kid, you should sit down and listen, stop thinking you know it all.

It's all coming apart for you debunkers now. Muah ah ah ah ahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

The day when I am here saying "I TOLD YOU SO" is coming fast.

This is a prime example of what I am hoping to avoid with my children.

[A W Smith]

Whelp...Sounds like someone's kid is smarter than their parent.

Maybe instead of trying to "change" the kid, you should sit down and listen, stop thinking you know it all.

It's all coming apart for you debunkers now. Muah ah ah ah ahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

The day when I am here saying "I TOLD YOU SO" is coming fast.

We prefer facts from adults, Who have brains with fully developed frontal lobes. sounds like?

Well it sounds like this. Come back and talk to us after your brain is fully developed ....Child.
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm89/AWSmith1955/frontallobedevelopment.jpg

[applecorped]

i would ask them if they did read/listen/watch both sides of the debate.
and Talk with them about it :)

PM from DC:

JREF and your KID

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hi

btw, i ment it about JREF and your kids.

even i as a CT do belive that JREF is one of the most competent counter part to the 9/11 conspiracys.

regards


In the real world there is no debate about 9/11. There is a ridiculously small fringe group (you, et al) that exists only on the internet. When/if you have kids then feel free to teach them whatever woo you want. Giving any credence to the crap you and GIE spews and letting children thinks its equally valid to what actually happened is tantamount to child abuse. Don't PM me again with your insincere advice.

[Brainster]

Consider tailoring your message based on the child. Is he liberal? You might point them to some excellent denunciations of the "Truth" Movement by liberals and leftists, like Bill Clinton, Noam Chomsky, George Monbiot and others.

[DC]

PM from DC:

JREF and your KID

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hi

btw, i ment it about JREF and your kids.

even i as a CT do belive that JREF is one of the most competent counter part to the 9/11 conspiracys.

regards


In the real world there is no debate about 9/11. There is a ridiculously small fringe group (you, et al) that exists only on the internet. When/if you have kids then feel free to teach them whatever woo you want. Giving any credence to the crap you and GIE spews and letting children thinks its equally valid to what actually happened is tantamount to child abuse. Don't PM me again with your insincere advice.

your kid only exist in the internet?

when i wanted you to teach your kids woo, i would have said send them to LC forum or AJ.

but when you think your kids will learn woo here, okey.......

btw, are you alowed to post PM?

[applecorped]

your kid only exist in the internet?

when i wanted you to teach your kids woo, i would have said send them to LC forum or AJ.
but when you think your kids will learn woo here, okey.......

btw, are you alowed to post PM?

So everything at LC forum is woo? Everything you spout sounds like it comes right from their playbook. So, you finally took a position, you're woo.
That wasn't so hard now, was it?

[X]

I would not make any comment one way or another about the issue.
Most teens would feel that is patronizing.

Instead, I'd suggest, as others have, quietly introducing or encouraging rational inquiry.
Try to get him/her to read stuff like "Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan.

I was never into 9/11 (I was 18 when it happened), but I was big into UFOs for quite some time.
I wish I'd had books like that.