Could you be friends with a troother?

[applecorped]

I was recently in another thread where to JREFers were acknowledging their opposing views on most everything except for when it came to 9/11.

Could you be a true friend with someone if they completely bought into a conspiracy about 9/11? Could you get past it or except it? Could you ever really trust that person?

[NickUK]

I'm friends with one, a girl I know from work who's now married to a very good friend of mine. We have an agreement not to talk about it (which I break more than her).

She's just misinformed more than wilfully ignorant, but she's a great girl so I don't preach too much. Plus, she's about the only person I know who still smokes ciggies, so I love her for that :)

[Jonnyclueless]

I think my not smoking pot would make that relationship too difficult. Not to imply that smoking pot itself is a bad thing. But it's almost a requirement for being a truther.

[uk_dave]

We have an agreement not to talk about it (which I break more than her).


I'm sure her belief is solid.... but you have to wonder why believing in a conspiracy theory which implicates not only the US government but also the worlds media and construction professionals, still leaves her with the option to avoid discussion. I mean.... it is kinda important, isn't it?

As for myself and in answer to the OP, since I have never met a 'truther' in the flesh I cannot conceive of having a friend who is a 'truther' so I don't have to contemplate the possibility of destroying the brain or cutting off the head of said 'truther........

...... or is that zombies?.....

...and, if so, what's the difference?

[Jonnyclueless]

I do have some good friends that are scientologists (and celebrities) that I have to bite my tongue around. They seem like perfectly normal people, but I am always tempted to just yell out "WTF are you thinking?!?!"

One friend, who if I were to name, everyone here would know once asked me to help him on a project the church of scientology was doing to raise money for Katrina victims. When I asked him if he was going to use his own people on it or the people form the church his response was "Oh no way I am working with those weirdos". To this day I don't know how to take it. The guy is as normal and rational as anyone, but he is a scientologist, but he also just called them weirdos. I also don't bring it up for fear of touching a sore spot or something or maybe I just don't want to ruine my view of him, lol. I have had the pleasure of getting to listen to his Hubbard lectures when we have been driving in the car. Boy what a bunch of nonsense. You know those lectures where it's jsut full of words, but not saying anything?

Anyways, I am not trying to derail the thread with scientology, but simply offering my experience which seems in a way a bit similar since I have no friends that I know are truthers.

[RecoveringYuppy]

Er, um. Would a hiking partner/booty call relationship count?

[SkepticGuy]

Could you be a true friend with someone if they...

I could be friends with anyone that liked Wild Turkey, dogs, and could quote entire scenes of The Big Lebowski.

[T.A.M.]

I have been friends with one for a while now. It is not a close friendship, but that has nothing to do with his belief in the 9/11 CTs.

TAM:)

[SpitfireIX]

Er, um. Would a hiking partner/booty call relationship count?


I would overlook much if she had big enough [Rule 10]s and was into [Rule 10] and [Rule 10]. :D

Seriously, though, I'm not sure I could be friends with a truther who couldn't be made to see reason after being presented with the evidence and having it discussed. I could overcome my revulsion to this person's beliefs, but the issue would be, "if you're this irrational on this subject, how rational are you in other areas of your life?"

[nicepants]

Could I be friends with a troother?

That's a great question. I would say probably yes, with exceptions for people like Craig, Aldo, stundie pdoherty and a few others whose willful ignorance is so strong it would preclude me from wanting to spend time with them regardless of their beliefs of anything 9/11 related.

The topic never comes up with any of my friends, except for one of my roommates who works with a troother.

Most of my friends are too smart to fall for the [rule10] surrounding the 9/11 "truth" movement, or other conspiracies.

[JamesB]

While I could never respect anyone stupid enough to be a troofer, troofer women (the few that there are) represent an interesting opportunity. I mean come on, how could anyone gullible enough to believe that the Pentagon got hit by an invisible cruise missile in broad daylight not buy the line that you are a professional baseball player and well-endowed?

[Jonnyclueless]

I'm trying to envision a truth booty call with role playing. dressing up in an uncle sam outfit and going it in the *censored*. "Yeah, the government is really givin it to ya now! Who's your oppressor, who's your oppressor!?"

[I Ratant]

I make a conscious effort to NOT get involved with my fundamentalist acquaintances in discussions about religion.
We get along nicely.
But not all of them. Some aren't worth cultivating as friends for many other reasons.
Didn't say "Neener, neener" on Jan 1, 2000 (or Jan 1, 2001 either) when the apocalypse, despite very sincere expressions of its approach, after its passing without anything undue occurring.

[johnny karate]

Actually, LastChild and I are very close. We're playing racquetball tomorrow.

[mortimer]

I have had a couple of acquaintances who were twoofers. Unfortunately, they were woo on almost all subjects, and it was impossible to hold a conversation with them without delving into all manner of woo. Yes, they both smoked pot, and no, I do not. They were interesting for conversation/debate, but there's no way I could get close to either of them because of their wooish ways.

[LastChild]

Actually, LastChild and I are very close. We're playing racquetball tomorrow.

I'm sorry didn't you get the message? I had to cancel. Something just came up. Really. You do believe me don't you? I hope this doesn't put a strain on our relationship.

BTW pretending to debunk one conspiracy theory doesn't validate your conspiracy theory. I was going to tell you that tomorrow but since I can't make it I thought I would remind you right now.

You're not mad are you?

Hey pal? Buddy? Hello are you still there? You still want to play next week don't you? I hope so. I have something I need to tell you.

[nicepants]

BTW pretending to debunk one conspiracy theory doesn't validate your conspiracy theory.

Most truthers don't understand this simple concept.

[pomeroo]

Actually, LastChild and I are very close. We're playing racquetball tomorrow.


No, he's studying to learn the difference between supply and demand. He's been at it for weeks with no signs of progress.

[MikeyMetz]

It's really hard to maintain a friendship with truthers, especially if you absolutely disagree with them. Other people who are not truthers, but are open to the ideas of the conspiracy theories probably have a better chance at friendship. Although, it eventually turns into "wake this person up at any cost," which means nonstop troofer documentaries and constant nagging to assist in a protest or action of some sort. Few, if any, actually go on to become truthers themselves. Most truthers I've known found out for themselves on the Internet (a.k.a. the troof brought us together).

As for me personally, there's really no communication between me and my [former] troofer friends. This is pretty awkward, considering I still live with a couple of them. There's really no personal animosity, as I came forth a few days before my "Letter of Resignation" blog, and basically told them I no longer believed in the cause and would not go on with them. What it really comes down to, I guess, is that without pot and conspiracy theories, we really have nothing in common anymore. And, without the opportunity to "wake me up," I guess there's no point for them to even hang out with me anymore.

[Pato2747]

I'm on a good relationship with one. And we often have one calmed chat about her "evidence".

Still, it ticks me off a little that, completely out of nowhere, she says "Did you know that WTC7 fell down BUT NO PLANE HIT IT?"

[gumboot]

Hrm, good question. I don't think I have an easy answer. I have "friendships" with a lot of people who believe a lot of woo - it's a hazard of working in the film industry here. I also worked with an old English guy who was absolutely positive that the Apollo missions were faked - I still managed to be friends with him.

What kind of "truther" are we talking here? Take it like religion. I hate and despise organised religion of all kinds. Does that stop me from being friends with religious people? Of course not. It does stop me being friends with some religious people though - the sort that stop me in the street and say "If you die tonight are you going to heaven or hell?".

So yeah, I could be friends with someone who believed the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories - but possibly not a really close friend, and no I don't think I could be friends with the sort of "truthers" we see most regularly on these subforums.

[applecorped]

Let's just look at one theory of troothers - CD brought down the towers and #7. On just this point alone do you think you could have meaningful friendship with the person?

[Par]

You're not mad are you? Hey pal? Buddy? Hello are you still there? You still want to play next week don't you? I hope so. I have something I need to tell you.


So angry! Relax. It was just a joke.

[Dr Adequate]

BTW pretending to debunk one conspiracy theory doesn't validate your conspiracy theory. You inadvertently told the truth again!

I wonder how many times we can get you to do this this month, and whether I can put several of your posts up for a collective Stundie.

You're not mad are you? No, he's laughing at you. When you can tell the difference, you will have taken a crucial step towards social maturity.

[Caper]

I probably could. I have a couple of friends that are at least fascinated
by it. More then anything, they just really hate Bush and love the fantasy of him being responsible..... Deep down I don't think they believe it at all. I think I'd have a much harder time being friends with a scientologist. Also, I could never be friends with a hard core truther.

[gtc]

Could truthers be friends with debunkers?

[sgf8]

Oh my FSM! I don't know how seriously the OP is about knowing the answer. But this has been bothering me for months!

I found out a few months ago that my boss (been my boss 10 years) believes that George Bush Sr. and friends killed JFK! He says that because they were all in town when he was assassinated that that shows it is true. I tried telling him that if the President of the U.S. was visiting the state that I governed I would be hanging around (and some of my friends also).

To no avail, my boss is so totally into it, he says that he has read so much on it and he can't understand why someone as intelligent as I am would not see the obvious. He said I must be stupid! (those are fighting words). I am trying to keep my mouth shut, but only asked if he has read everything he can get his hands on, did he read the Skeptical Inquirer report and that 7 million page book (just released, can't think of the name). He just says that he knows he is right and does not need to look at anything else, it is just obvious to him.

I have little contact with him even though he is my direct boss, I try to only talk to him about work related issues. But during a company meeting he said during dinner, that the World Trade Center was blown up by the government. He had had a couple drinks by this time, so I just rolled my eyes, and looked at my food. Someone else almost started in on him, but I said, "don't encourage him, change the subject"

Personally I HAVE LOST all respect for the man. I don't see him the same way I did before, and just think he is a big idiot. You can't discuss it with him because he will not listen. So I just stay quiet.

The other day he called me and told me that he really really wants me to see this movie called "Vantage Point" just to listen to the last sentence. I don't know anyone who has seen the movie, and I will probably never watch it, so if someone here could enlighten me I would be pleased. I assume it has something to do with JFK and the conspiracy.

But seriously, this has bothered me to no end. I am not leaving this job, nor does he look like he is leaving. We get along really well, but even though we don't talk about this issue, even after many months, I still can't talk to him without thinking of the troothers here on the forum. And that ain't a pretty picture.

So to answer the OP, NO, you can only remain friends with a trooter if you don't mind repeating over and over, "he's an idiot, he's an idiot, he's an idiot." And that a friendship does not make.

Susan

[Pardalis]

Could you be a true friend with someone if they completely bought into a conspiracy about 9/11?

Nope.

[Gorgonian]

Absolutely not.

[MattusMaximus]

I was recently in another thread where to JREFers were acknowledging their opposing views on most everything except for when it came to 9/11.

Could you be a true friend with someone if they completely bought into a conspiracy about 9/11? Could you get past it or except it? Could you ever really trust that person?


I know a guy who's into the whole 9/11 "Truth Movement" crapola. We travel in the same political circles (liberal leaning), but in my opinion he's let his political inclinations (i.e., his hatred of the Bush Administration) get the better of his higher reasoning skills.

I remember the exact moment when I discovered he was a "truther" - we were at a political meeting and I saw some conspiracy propaganda in with his notes. That and some things that he'd said previously made it all click for me.

I cannot express how much respect I lost for him at that moment :(

Can I get past it? Not sure - at this point I don't think I could.

On a positive note, last year I had a friend and a student (two people) express to me their interest in the whole 9/11 "Truth Movement". I gave them each a copy of Skeptic Magazine's analysis of the movement's claims, and it effectively brought them each back from diving off the conspiracy-mongering cliff.

So you lose some, but I guess you win some too :)

[Dog Town]

I could be friends with anyone that liked Wild Turkey, dogs, and could quote entire scenes of The Big Lebowski.

And was a twoofer! That is because, it pays your rent!

Answer: NO! My friends have a brain!

[Pardalis]

I could be friends with someone who believes in UFOs, or that McCartney has been dead and replaced, but a truther has so much twisted its mind in so many ways, and often deliberately, because of ideological and political reasons, that I don't see how we could be friends.

[BillyRayValentine]

I was recently in another thread where to JREFers were acknowledging their opposing views on most everything except for when it came to 9/11.

Could you be a true friend with someone if they completely bought into a conspiracy about 9/11? Could you get past it or except it? Could you ever really trust that person?

I've never actually met one. Most seem to be in their teens or early twenties - and blithering idiots. Not exactly my crowd. The remaining elderstatesmen (and women, can't forget about the energy beam and kerplunk(?) hotties) driving the bus appear to be a wee bit insane. Again, not quite my cup of tea.

Judging from what I've seen and read on the net, I doubt I'd ever consider being friends with any of them even if 9/11 never came up. Most come across as fairly pathetic. The fact that they indulge in such self-delusion and make such wild, odious accusations, all because they really, really don't like Bush or the U.S. or whatever, is the icing on the cake.

So my answer is no. I could never be friends with a twoof lover.

[CHF]

This thread reminds me that I've actually met two twoofers in real life - one was my uncle (since cured, by all indications) and the other was a friend of my fiancee.

For as long as either of us had known him he had been a little odd and quirky...but he had an awesome weed hook-up so we tolerated his overall weirdness.

But then he got into 9/11 twoofism and soon showed me that he had the critical thinking skills of a toddler.

One day he sent me an e-mail in which he claimed that helicopters circled the WTC and fired rockets into the core! His "proof" was the video shot from across the river that showed flashes from news/NYPD choppers. This was a theory that was so bad that even Jim Fetzer entertained it. I promptly replied by tearing that theory to bits with ease and so he dropped it.

But then a few weeks later at a house party he started spewing 9/11, Moon Landing and illuminati conspiracies in front of some of my other friends which really freaked everyone out.

He followed that embarrassing performance up with an e-mail link to a video of two engineers supposedly endorsing the demolition theory, when in fact they did no such thing. In fact one of the engineers was Gene Corley, for crying out loud!

At that point I realized it wasn't wise to stay friends with someone that stupid, so I basically told him he was a complete moron and that he needed medical help.

Ironically, at the same time he was bombarding my fiancee with a host of his stupid relationship problems (which resulted in her cutting him loose) and to top it off his weed source got busted by the cops.

So no - I don't stay friends for long with people dumb enough to believe in 9/11 twoof.

[BillyRayValentine]

I've never actually met one. Most seem to be in their teens or early twenties - and blithering idiots. Not exactly my crowd. The remaining elderstatesmen (and women, can't forget about the energy beam and kerplunk(?) hotties) driving the bus appear to be a wee bit insane. Again, not quite my cup of tea.

Judging from what I've seen and read on the net, I doubt I'd ever consider being friends with any of them even if 9/11 never came up. Most come across as fairly pathetic. The fact that they indulge in such self-delusion and make such wild, odious accusations, all because they really, really don't like Bush or the U.S. or whatever, is the icing on the cake.

So my answer is no. I could never be friends with a twoof lover.

P.S. See attached if any questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvNwfUsKG9g

[Dr Adequate]

I could be friends with someone who believes in UFOs, or that McCartney has been dead and replaced, but a truther has so much twisted its mind in so many ways, and often deliberately, because of ideological and political reasons, that I don't see how we could be friends. Always remember, when considering any group of cranks, that they should not be judged by their activists. Anyone who tries to debate for truthism at any length, and convinces himself that he's succeeded, will indeed have made a curious Moebius strip of his mind. But this is not necessarily true of the people who are just casually duped by it.

It's like creationism in this respect. And in so many others.

[HENTAI DOUKYUSEI JP]

I know lastchild.
He borrowed from me the Vladimir Nabocov's book while he was on vacation.
lastchild is a friend of mine.

[CHF]

Anyone who tries to debate for truthism at any length, and convinces himself that he's succeeded, will indeed have made a curious Moebius strip of his mind. But this is not necessarily true of the people who are just casually duped by it.

Indeed this is an important distinction.

I can forgive someone who is duped and then wakes up after seeing the facts, but not someone who sticks with the BS despite being proven wrong on their first 500 talking points....

[Mobyseven]

I probably couldn't become friends with a truther if I knew straight up that they were a truther. But I could probably get past it (annoying as it may be) if I found out after I already liked them.

[applecorped]

I know lastchild.
He borrowed from me the Vladimir Nabocov's book while he was on vacation.
lastchild is a friend of mine.

LC's favorite song:

Reality used to be a friend of mine
Reality used to be a friend of mine
Maybe "why?" is the question that's on you mind
But reality used to be a friend of mine
Reality used to be a friend of mine.
Reality used to be a friend of mine
Please don't ask me 'cause I don't know why,
but reality used to be a friend of mine.

I used to be friends with reality
She used to be a pal real close to me
But she tried to hide from me what was in store
Tried to house me but a house has doors
I was insane and the picture was crazy
So the relevance here seems to be a bit hazy
But I tried to explain this in the simplest terms
But she let the cross burn and it was my turn to say,
"The roses are red, and violets are blue,j
and things are gonna stay that way, too"
And I was the nut to believe all of this
I figured life would just hand me bliss
Now I have to worry about certain doom
Or will I be here tomorrow afternoon
Now ask me about the future.

PM Dawn

[TobiasTheViking]

I have one friend who is a troofer, but, as long as she doesn't bring it up i don't care, if she does, i'll show her how wrong she is..

BUT, she is extremely close minded(though, of course, claiming that i am) and won't accept that there weren't explosives in the tower. Because of "physics"... when i try to tell her the real physics she just shakes it off...

But, still good friends.

[Myriad]

The potential possibility exists. I am friends with one of the top promoters and teachers of Reiki in the U.S., someone who travels regularly to Japan to confer with the Japanese originators of the practice. (And we don't "avoid the subject.") I have other friends who are developmentally disabled and don't have the ability to learn to count to 20. I focus on the great deal we have in common and am respectful of what we do not.

My Reiki Master friend does not require me to believe in her practice, nor do I require her to share my doubt, as a condition of friendship. I don't require people to be able to count to 20, or to not genuinely believe in Santa Claus at the age of 45, as a condition of friendship.

But with truthers, it's not that easy. Critical thinking is above all a tool that facilitates trust. Those who lack it use other less effective trust models instead, such as trusting everyone (which, besides being unsafe, requires them to overlook contradictions), trusting the first thing they hear and then denying all subsequent contradictions, or trusting and distrusting based on arbitrary and unreliable criteria such as race, age, or religion. Truthers are among those whose flawed trust models preclude their trusting anything anyone says on any evidentiary basis at all. That's why they can confidently dismiss all expertise no matter how legitimate and well-demonstrated, treat ordinary people who disagree with them as willful liars and criminals, and turn on one another at the drop of a hat.

Only under very extraordinary circumstances would one be friends with someone whose behavior toward you you consider criminal -- such as someone who repeatedly steals from you or assaults you. When one doesn't believe in 9/11 trooth, you become such a criminal in truthers' eyes. Other than believing in their nonsense, there is simply no way to earn a truther's trust. Which I would say makes all but the most tenuous and unstable of friendships impossible, and explains why we often hear about even longstanding prior friendships being broken as a result of one of the friends becoming a truther.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[sgf8]

Sorry I could only make it to 3:32 on the YouTube Video. It was really sad.

I don't understand why people are still forming into these groups, are they fading away? The guy who first spoke on the video said that this groups is bigger than the New York groups. Isn't that a bit pathetic?

And no, I don't see any way I would want to associate with those people.

Susan

[Jonnyclueless]

When I was little I used to go to church of my own will, and went to the church youth groups, and participated in all the church activities. At the time I thought I did it because I was religious and believed in God, yadda yadda yadda.

Now that I am grown up I realize that it had nothing to do with religion and was simply about trying to find a group of people to fit in with. For some it might be jocks, for others it might be street gangs, for some church, for some 9/11 twoof groups.

Most will eventually grow up and realize they just wanted to find a group of people that accepted them.

[Unsecured Coins]

i'm actually casual with a few truthers. How? We don't talk about 9/11.

[sgf8]

Most will eventually grow up and realize they just wanted to find a group of people that accepted them.

My boss is in his 50's....what hope is there for him?

BTW-thinking about the first part of your post, that probably fits my church experience as a youth as well. I wanted to belong to something established, and find people to hang out with. But there were almost no young people, it was an old people church. I still stuck it out for years, if it had been one of these trendy, fun youth churches I might still be pretending I was one of them.

Susan

[GlennB]

Always remember, when considering any group of cranks, that they should not be judged by their activists. Anyone who tries to debate for truthism at any length, and convinces himself that he's succeeded, will indeed have made a curious Moebius strip of his mind. But this is not necessarily true of the people who are just casually duped by it.

It's like creationism in this respect. And in so many others.

My bolding.

This is very true. A surprising number of people seem to be susceptible to stuff like 9/11 "truth" and the like. However, many recover so shouldn't be casually dismissed as hopeless cases. Which is, perhaps, why we're here debating the issue endlessly?

[RecoveringYuppy]

Er, um. Would a hiking partner/booty call relationship count?

I would overlook much if she had big enough [Rule 10]s and was into [Rule 10] and [Rule 10]. :D

Yeah, she rules.

Seriously, though, I'm not sure I could be friends with a truther who couldn't be made to see reason after being presented with the evidence and having it discussed. I could overcome my revulsion to this person's beliefs, but the issue would be, "if you're this irrational on this subject, how rational are you in other areas of your life?"
Like Dr A said, she's one of the people who is casually duped by it. She knows there's a lot wrong on the web sites she's seen but also has some vague notion that "there's something to it". She's neither rational, nor irrational on the subject. Hasn't really examined it in depth. It's something she believes but it's not terribly important to her.