Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here?

[LastChild]

Often I find myself in the position of defending my view on 9/11 to someone from another country here at JREF. There seems to be many Europeans, Canadians, maybe even others, who can’t wait to take the position that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. Wishful thinking maybe? It’s almost like…

“See America isn’t so great.”

Resentment? Has America reminded you of what your country is not in the past? Did you take any pleasure in watching the greatest nation in the history of the world take a shot on 9/11? Just a little bit?

Now before anyone gets me wrong I haven’t ruled out that America was caught with its pants down on 9/11. I just didn’t consider that possibility in an attempt to bring America down to the level of second best. A far, far, behind second best at that.


Hell maybe not even third best?

[Big Les]

Fail

[LastChild]

Fail

United Kingdom? I think not.

[slyjoe]

Globalization.

[stateofgrace]

Often I find myself in the position of defending my view on 9/11 to someone from another country here at JREF. There seems to be many Europeans, Canadians, maybe even others, who can’t wait to take the position that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. Wishful thinking maybe? It’s almost like…

“See America isn’t so great.”

Resentment? Has America reminded you of what your country is not in the past? Did you take any pleasure in watching the greatest nation in the history of the world take a shot on 9/11? Just a little bit?

Now before anyone gets me wrong I haven’t ruled out that America was caught with its pants down on 9/11. I just didn’t consider that possibility in an attempt to bring America down to the level of second best. A far, far, behind second best at that.


Hell maybe not even third best?

Pathetic, grow up.

[LastChild]

Oh come on. It doesn't bother some of you just a little how we had to come and fight your battles for you in the past? The big brother turned into the little sister can't feel good can it?

[gumboot]

I don't even understand the OP...

"Has America reminded you of what your country is not in the past?"

[stateofgrace]

Oh come on. It doesn't bother some of you just a little how we had to come and fight your battles for you in the past? The big brother turned into the little sister can't feel good can it?

No,why ?

Your opening post is complete and utter pathetic drivel as is the one above.

[Myriad]

Attempting to provoke arguments about which country is "best?"

I thought the truthers were opposed to all that "1984" stuff.

I ask again, LastChild. Can't you do better for yourself?

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Totovader]

Oh come on. It doesn't bother some of you just a little how we had to come and fight your battles for you in the past? The big brother turned into the little sister can't feel good can it?

You're desperately trying to piss people off.

Troll.

[Architect]

Often I find myself in the position of defending my view on 9/11 to someone from another country here at JREF. There seems to be many Europeans, Canadians, maybe even others, who can’t wait to take the position that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. Wishful thinking maybe? It’s almost like…

“See America isn’t so great.”

Resentment? Has America reminded you of what your country is not in the past? Did you take any pleasure in watching the greatest nation in the history of the world take a shot on 9/11? Just a little bit?

Now before anyone gets me wrong I haven’t ruled out that America was caught with its pants down on 9/11. I just didn’t consider that possibility in an attempt to bring America down to the level of second best. A far, far, behind second best at that.


Hell maybe not even third best?


It seems to me that there is an inherrent contradiction in your approach here.

You argue that 9/11 is an inside job undertaken by elements of the US national administration, the only superpower (for now). It has led us - including the UK - into wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which have cost us dearly in terms of lives, stature, and money. This would naturally be of the greatest concern to us all.

However you seem to be objecting that those outwith the US - and one assumes you're also counting the Canadians here - are sceptical of your claims and taking time to debunk them. I think you need to ask yourself what you position would be had we supported them? Surely you'd be praising our objective understanding, or pointing out that we're not subject to the media propoganda of the US?

Basically, I think you want to have your cake and eat it. Why not concentrate on attacking our arguments instead?

[gumboot]

Basically, I think you want to have your cake and eat it.

I've never understood this saying. What's the point of having a cake if you're not going to eat it? I mean, you might as well give it to someone else who will eat it.

[Good Lt]

Often I find myself in the position of defending my view on 9/11 to someone from another country here at JREF.

You don't have a view on 9-11. You're just asking questions. Remember?

[Good Lt]

I've never understood this saying. What's the point of having a cake if you're not going to eat it? I mean, you might as well give it to someone else who will eat it.

Understood - it simply means that you can't have a cake look all pretty and pristine and then go eat parts of it expecting it to look the way it did before you ate it. One or the other.

[Aitch]

I've never understood this saying. What's the point of having a cake if you're not going to eat it? I mean, you might as well give it to someone else who will eat it.

The original is to eat your cake and have it; that is to have eaten it yet still have it.

[SDC]

I think that LC is trying to drive away non-US JREFarians, so he'll have fewer overall to contend with. Or else since he seems to think the US is evil enough to elect a prez who would kill its (the USA's) own without hesitation (I assume LC's an Amurrican, but I don't know), perhaps he is genuinely baffled when those lucky enough not to be Yanks disdain his views.

Go figure, as we say 'round NYC.

[CptColumbo]

Often I find myself in the position of defending my view on 9/11 to someone from another country here at JREF. There seems to be many Europeans, Canadians, maybe even others, who can’t wait to take the position that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. Wishful thinking maybe? It’s almost like…

“See America isn’t so great.”

Resentment? Has America reminded you of what your country is not in the past? Did you take any pleasure in watching the greatest nation in the history of the world take a shot on 9/11? Just a little bit?

Now before anyone gets me wrong I haven’t ruled out that America was caught with its pants down on 9/11. I just didn’t consider that possibility in an attempt to bring America down to the level of second best. A far, far, behind second best at that.


Hell maybe not even third best?
The nationalism you are displaying is not uncommon among the CT community. IMO it stems from paranoia/anxiety regarding one's own well being. An attempt to reassure oneself that there is no way a small group could pull off such a monumental act of terrorism. Also, that your government/leaders (whatever/whoever it/they may be) are so infallable and/or ineffable they could never make mistakes that would lead to such an outcome. Somehow it is more comforting to think that there is a vast conspiracy to harm the public among the people you believe to also be your protectors, than a few fanatics.

However, it is often forgotten that goverments (for the moment) are administered by human beings. Mistakes can be made for the same reasons that plague every other human being, through ego, pragmatism and/or incompetence.

Finally, are you able to find, within those conversations you mention in the OP, where the non-American poster is saying that their native country is greater than the USA?

[Apollo20]

LastChild:

I think for me the most significant aspect of 9/11 is that it was, (apart from the Pentagon, perhaps), an attack on civilians; as was the Lockerbie and Air India bombings, for example. Then I am reminded of the famous lines by John Donne:

"No man is an island, entire of it self....
Any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind:
And therefore never send to know
for whom the bell tolls;
it tolls for thee"

[Architect]

Just as an aside, does LastChild therefore think that other countries should tell the US to bugger off when they send the FBI to "help" with an investigation which happened on their soil but involved Americans?

[Stout]

LC might actually have a valid point here.:eye-poppi

I feel there's a certain anti-American component to the whole 9/11 "truth" idea. I first heard the CT on 9/12, from another Canadian.

Interestingly, I haunt a very left wing Canadian forum ( I don't post there, because, being a normal person, they'd ban me ) and as anti-American as they are, they're not truthers.

So I'd say yes, there is a component, however it's very small.

It is after all, a global issue that affected more than just America. Even the Australians are getting in on the action with their production of that bastion of intellectual integrity...Shitegeist.

[LastChild]

It seems to me that there is an inherrent contradiction in your approach here.

You argue that 9/11 is an inside job undertaken by elements of the US national administration, the only superpower (for now). It has led us - including the UK - into wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which have cost us dearly in terms of lives, stature, and money. This would naturally be of the greatest concern to us all.

However you seem to be objecting that those outwith the US - and one assumes you're also counting the Canadians here - are sceptical of your claims and taking time to debunk them. I think you need to ask yourself what you position would be had we supported them? Surely you'd be praising our objective understanding, or pointing out that we're not subject to the media propoganda of the US?

Basically, I think you want to have your cake and eat it. Why not concentrate on attacking our arguments instead?


How is it a contradiction? Now I myself don't believe it but some Americans would go as far as to think no other group or country could successfully attack America without the help of America. Even in the official version the hijackers trained in America. I believe UBL was educated in America. Let's read how the people whispering in President Bush's ear think...

The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'" – 2002 Senior adviser to President Bush

All I'm claiming is that it's possible that the motivation for some people to want to believe America was caught with its pants down is their resentment towards America.

[Alt+F4]

Has America reminded you of what your country is not in the past?

What?

[Mobyseven]

Often I find myself in the position of defending my view on 9/11 to someone from another country here at JREF. There seems to be many Europeans, Canadians, maybe even others, who can’t wait to take the position that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. Wishful thinking maybe? It’s almost like…

“See America isn’t so great.”

Resentment? Has America reminded you of what your country is not in the past? Did you take any pleasure in watching the greatest nation in the history of the world take a shot on 9/11? Just a little bit?

Now before anyone gets me wrong I haven’t ruled out that America was caught with its pants down on 9/11. I just didn’t consider that possibility in an attempt to bring America down to the level of second best. A far, far, behind second best at that.


Hell maybe not even third best?

America was caught with its pants down. Australians lost their lives that day. Then more lost their lives when a related terrorist group made moves closer to home a year and a bit on. As such, I'll weigh in on the discussion, on these public internet forums, whenever I damn well please.

Oh come on. It doesn't bother some of you just a little how we had to come and fight your battles for you in the past? The big brother turned into the little sister can't feel good can it?

Sorry, you'll have to run that one by me again...when did the USA have to come and fight battles for us?

ETA - You may also not realise this, but there are a great many people who don't think that the USA is, "[T]he greatest nation in the history of the world," or indeed even in the top three.

[jhunter1163]

LC:

Believe it or not, the US does not exist in a vacuum. There were many foreign nationals who died on 9/11. Those governments had (and have) an interest in seeing that those responsible (OBL and Al Qaeda) are brought to justice.

Also, the US does not have the monopoly on any type of expertise, or on critical thinking. Our resident NORAD expert, Gumboot, is from New Zealand. The UK is also very ably represented by Architect, Dave Rogers, and many other qualified individuals.

In short, people weigh in because they have something to contribute. Or, like me, they kibitz from the sidelines. I personally don't contribute much because the issues most commonly debated re: 9/11 involve engineering and physics, which is not in my area of expertise.

But if you want to debate the health-insurance system, I'm up for it.

[Alt+F4]

All I'm claiming is that it's possible that the motivation for some people to want to believe America was caught with its pants down is their resentment towards America.

I'm an American who often has resentment towards my own country. I hate George Bush and all his corrupt cronies and I can't wait for the whole rat's nest to be swept out next January.

With that said, I still don't believe that the attacks of 9/11 were an "inside job" because I've not seen one piece of hard evidence to indicate that.

Perhaps it's your own resentment of the current administration that blinds you to the fact that 19 Islamic jhadists murdered almost 3000 people on September 11, 2001. The incompetency of the President was not needed.

[RedIbis]

LastChild:

I think for me the most significant aspect of 9/11 is that it was, (apart from the Pentagon, perhaps), an attack on civilians; as was the Lockerbie and Air India bombings, for example. Then I am reminded of the famous lines by John Donne:

"No man is an island, entire of it self....
Any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind:
And therefore never send to know
for whom the bell tolls;
it tolls for thee"

One of the more dramatic examples of bringing some class into an inscrutable thread.

[DC]

LastChild:

I think for me the most significant aspect of 9/11 is that it was, (apart from the Pentagon, perhaps), an attack on civilians; as was the Lockerbie and Air India bombings, for example. Then I am reminded of the famous lines by John Donne:

"No man is an island, entire of it self....
Any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind:
And therefore never send to know
for whom the bell tolls;
it tolls for thee"

good post

[gumboot]

"No man is an island, entire of it self....
Any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind:
And therefore never send to know
for whom the bell tolls;
it tolls for thee"


I'm in agreement with Apollo20. When I learn of anything happening to any humans anywhere I am affected on some level because I too, am human.

The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
-Thomas Paine

[LastChild]

The nationalism you are displaying is not uncommon among the CT community. IMO it stems from paranoia/anxiety regarding one's own well being. An attempt to reassure oneself that there is no way a small group could pull off such a monumental act of terrorism. Also, that your government/leaders (whatever/whoever it/they may be) are so infallable and/or ineffable they could never make mistakes that would lead to such an outcome. Somehow it is more comforting to think that there is a vast conspiracy to harm the public among the people you believe to also be your protectors, than a few fanatics.

I find absolutely no comfort in the possibility of a conspiracy involving my own government and the attacks of 9/11.

However, it is often forgotten that goverments (for the moment) are administered by human beings. Mistakes can be made for the same reasons that plague every other human being, through ego, pragmatism and/or incompetence.

I haven't forgotten, I just don't consider it the only possibility just because I feel America needs to be taken down a few pegs.

Finally, are you able to find, within those conversations you mention in the OP, where the non-American poster is saying that their native country is greater than the USA?

I never claimed someone said their country is greater then America. I know some of you are delusional but come on... who in their right mind would ever even consider that?

[Myriad]

Good lord, I'm agreeing with RedIbis, Dictator Cheney, and Apollo20 all at the same time. If it weren't on such obvious points (to wit, that the 9/11 attacks were primarily attacks on civilians and that they concern us all regardless of what country we live in), I'd fear a serious rift in the time-space continuum.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[applecorped]

I find absolutely no comfort in the possibility of a conspiracy involving my own government and the attacks of 9/11.



I haven't forgotten, I just don't consider it the only possibility just because I feel America needs to be taken down a few pegs.



I never claimed someone said their country is greater then America. I know some of you are delusional but come on... who in their right mind would ever even consider that?

Why does America need to be taken down a few pegs? What exactly do you mean by a "few pegs"?

[gumboot]

Even in the official version the hijackers trained in America.

The hijackers were trained in Afghanistan.


I believe UBL was educated in America.

Osama Bin Laden has never been to the United States, and was educated at Al-Thager Model School and King Abdulaziz University, both in Saudi Arabia.

[LastChild]

LastChild:

I think for me the most significant aspect of 9/11 is that it was, (apart from the Pentagon, perhaps), an attack on civilians; as was the Lockerbie and Air India bombings, for example. Then I am reminded of the famous lines by John Donne:

"No man is an island, entire of it self....
Any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind:
And therefore never send to know
for whom the bell tolls;
it tolls for thee"

What are you trying to say Apollo? Hemingway the great American ripped off Donn? What are you resentful?


Just kidding. Good post.

[gumboot]

I never claimed someone said their country is greater then America. I know some of you are delusional but come on... who in their right mind would ever even consider that?


Heck, why not...

As far as I can tell I think my country is vastly better than the United States, and wouldn't move to the USA if you paid me...

[applecorped]

Better how?

[DC]

most ppl belive theyr country is the greatest and best in the entire world, heck, even some of those ppl that flee theyr country, to have a better live in other countrys.

that is totaly subjective.

just like almost everyone has the best mother on earth :)

[gumboot]

most ppl belive theyr country is the greatest and best in the entire world, heck, even some of those ppl that flee theyr country, to have a better live in other countrys.


Quite true. Assuming you're not being forced to remain in a given country, I really don't understand why someone would live in a country that they don't think is the best in the world.

[stateofgrace]

How is it a contradiction? Now I myself don't believe it but some Americans would go as far as to think no other group or country could successfully attack America without the help of America. Even in the official version the hijackers trained in America. I believe UBL was educated in America. Let's read how the people whispering in President Bush's ear think...

The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'" – 2002 Senior adviser to President Bush

All I'm claiming is that it's possible that the motivation for some people to want to believe America was caught with its pants down is their resentment towards America.

Your claim is groundless and the real motivation for this thread is apparent as it is transparent. You are trying to create the resentment, by doing so you are hoping that the American and non American posters in this sub forum will suddenly start to have a go at one another. You are trying to open up a rift between members from different nations.

You have once again failed because everybody can see exactly what your motivation is.

Forget this one guys, it really is not worth the effort, nobody I know holds any resentment towards America or her people.

[gumboot]

Better how?

In every way imaginable... ;)

[LastChild]

The hijackers were trained in Afghanistan.

I was talking about the flight schools.

Osama Bin Laden has never been to the United States, and was educated at Al-Thager Model School and King Abdulaziz University, both in Saudi Arabia.

I stand corrected. I thought I had read that somewhere. Maybe this...

The Bin Laden family saga also provides a particularly consequential thread of the troubled, compulsive, greed-inflected, secret-burdened, and, ultimately — to both sides — unconvincing alliance between the United States and Saudi Arabia during the oil age. Until Osama announced himself as an international terrorist, his family was much more heavily invested in the United States than has generally been understood — his brothers and sisters owned American shopping centers, apartment complexes, condominiums, luxury estates, privatized prisons in Massachusetts, corporate stocks, an airport, and much else. They attended American universities, maintained friendships and business partnerships with Americans, and sought American passports for their children.

[LastChild]

LC:

Believe it or not, the US does not exist in a vacuum. There were many foreign nationals who died on 9/11. Those governments had (and have) an interest in seeing that those responsible (OBL and Al Qaeda) are brought to justice.

Also, the US does not have the monopoly on any type of expertise, or on critical thinking. Our resident NORAD expert, Gumboot, is from New Zealand. The UK is also very ably represented by Architect, Dave Rogers, and many other qualified individuals.

In short, people weigh in because they have something to contribute. Or, like me, they kibitz from the sidelines. I personally don't contribute much because the issues most commonly debated re: 9/11 involve engineering and physics, which is not in my area of expertise.

But if you want to debate the health-insurance system, I'm up for it.

It was America that was attacked.

[Jonnyclueless]

I need to start a new thread called "Why do so many people not use the ignore function?"

[CptColumbo]

It was America that was attacked.
Geographically speaking the attacks occured in the US, but the victims were not all Americans and it affected a broader community of nations. The "W" in WTC stood for "World."

Our hearts where they rocked our cradle
Our love where we spent our toil,
And our faith, and our hope, and our honor,
We pledge to our native soil.
God gave all men all earth to love
But since our hearts are small
Ordained for each one spot should prove
Beloved over all.
–Rudyard Kipling

[LastChild]

http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.17764/article_detail.asp

Europe's Anti-American Obsession
By Jean-Francois Revel

Many Europeans sneer that America, a society still in a primitive state, ruled by violence and criminality, couldn't possibly have a mature culture. American literature and cinema is said to be an arid desert, devoid of original talent or great creators. They apparently never heard of Poe, Melville, Hawthorne, Henry James, Faulkner, Tennessee Williams, or Scott Fitzgerald. Piercing analysts like Theodore Dreiser, Upton Sinclair, Sinclair Lewis, Frank Norris, John Steinbeck, John Dos Passos, and Tom Wolfe are conveniently ignored. And never mind that American film and television are far more willing to confront sensitive social or political issues than are European productions.

On the whole, American society is sweepingly condemned as practically the worst association of human beings in history. Fresh evidence can do nothing to dispel such views, which, filled with distortion as they are, reflect little on the true strengths and failures of American society. But they tell us a great deal about the psychological problems of those Europeans who proffer the criticisms.

[CptColumbo]

http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.17764/article_detail.asp

Europe's Anti-American Obsession
By Jean-Francois Revel

Many Europeans sneer that America, a society still in a primitive state, ruled by violence and criminality, couldn't possibly have a mature culture. American literature and cinema is said to be an arid desert, devoid of original talent or great creators. They apparently never heard of Poe, Melville, Hawthorne, Henry James, Faulkner, Tennessee Williams, or Scott Fitzgerald. Piercing analysts like Theodore Dreiser, Upton Sinclair, Sinclair Lewis, Frank Norris, John Steinbeck, John Dos Passos, and Tom Wolfe are conveniently ignored. And never mind that American film and television are far more willing to confront sensitive social or political issues than are European productions.

On the whole, American society is sweepingly condemned as practically the worst association of human beings in history. Fresh evidence can do nothing to dispel such views, which, filled with distortion as they are, reflect little on the true strengths and failures of American society. But they tell us a great deal about the psychological problems of those Europeans who proffer the criticisms.
What does this have to do with your OP?

I have no doubt that there are people who dislike America, and there are Americans who dislike various other countries for no particular reason, other then it's not the United States of America.

[LastChild]

What does this have to do with your OP?

I have no doubt that there are people who dislike America, and there are Americans who dislike various other countries for no particular reason, other then it's not the United States of America.

It has everything to do with it. The 9/11 attacks to some are nothing more then a confirmation that America isn't so great after all. It has more to do with wishful thinking and an underlying resentment then it does with investigations and evidence. The article I posted is for those who would imply there is no resentment towards America.

[Alt+F4]

The 9/11 attacks to some are nothing more then a confirmation that America isn't so great after all. It has more to do with wishful thinking and an underlying resentment then it does with investigations and evidence. The article I posted is for those who would imply there is no resentment towards America.

No one is denying that many folks in other countries have resentment against the United States. Why is this in the conspiracy sub-forum?

[CptColumbo]

It has everything to do with it. The 9/11 attacks to some are nothing more then a confirmation that America isn't so great after all. It has more to do with wishful thinking and an underlying resentment then it does with investigations and evidence. The article I posted is for those who would imply there is no resentment towards America.
Who implied that there was no resentment?

IMO what you are misunderstanding is that many are writing that it's not USA that isn't so great, but the people who were running the government at the time.

I've been traveling abroad lately and found very few people who disliked/hated Americans. The majority didn't like the Bush administration, but not the country itself. In fact, many, especially in the UK were very upset with how their own government was being run.

As with the article you linked to, there are the cultural elites who believe in their own cultures superiority. Wine production is a good example of this elitism. Each region/country feels their wine the best and speaks in derogatory ways about other countries growers.However, I find they tend to be the minority.

[Foolmewunz]

Often I find myself in the position of defending my view on 9/11 to someone from another country here at JREF. There seems to be many Europeans, Canadians, maybe even others, who can’t wait to take the position that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. Wishful thinking maybe? It’s almost like…

“See America isn’t so great.”

Resentment? Has America reminded you of what your country is not in the past? Did you take any pleasure in watching the greatest nation in the history of the world take a shot on 9/11? Just a little bit?

Now before anyone gets me wrong I haven’t ruled out that America was caught with its pants down on 9/11. I just didn’t consider that possibility in an attempt to bring America down to the level of second best. A far, far, behind second best at that.


Hell maybe not even third best?

Project much, do you? This is merely turning the discussion from many TMers point of view on its head. The sub-theme through many of the CTs is that no dumb foreigner living in no cave could possibly outsmart the greatest nation in the world with the most money and most firepower, forever and ever, Amen!

I've never seen such a distorted view of patriotism in my life. You and I are entitled to accuse the government of malfeasance, but they are not? Have you an opinion on Kosovo? Darfur? The Boer Wars? Eurovision? How about the London Underground/Bus bombings? The liquid bomb arrests? Madrid trains? You have nothing to say about any of that and shouldn't be allowed to even if you did?

If it's your belief that interested parties have nothing to add to the discussion, then you are sadly xenophobic. I missed the part where it says on the Forum that it's available only to trueblooded Americans.

Further, when I see the logic of your contributions compared to some of those nasty foreign elements you're so concerned about, frankly, I'd rather read their views.

We've had a Canadian troofer here, and a Dutch troofer (and every troofer known to man has rallied around the great Danny Jawenko), and an Aussie troofer. Are you going to disclaim their views because they weren't born under the red, white and blue?

No one's trying to bring America down a peg. If anything, the TM is doing that on its own. While we show our tolerance and affection for our loons, we don't want to lock them away; we want to share them with the world. And as long as the virus that is the TM hasn't died off, you guys will continue to make the world aware of the fact that it's not only London and Sydney and Paris where they have webloonies (they've moved inside from the street corners and soap boxes in the parks).

As long as the TM can't get a thing right, I welcome our NWO allies from overseas.

[Par]

Often I find myself in the position of defending my view on 9/11 to someone from another country here at JREF. There seems to be many Europeans, Canadians, maybe even others, who can’t wait to take the position that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. Wishful thinking maybe? It’s almost like…

“See America isn’t so great.”

Resentment? Has America reminded you of what your country is not in the past? Did you take any pleasure in watching the greatest nation in the history of the world take a shot on 9/11? Just a little bit?

Now before anyone gets me wrong I haven’t ruled out that America was caught with its pants down on 9/11. I just didn’t consider that possibility in an attempt to bring America down to the level of second best. A far, far, behind second best at that.


Hell maybe not even third best?


I would have thought that the notion that America was taken by surprise reflects on it far more positively than does the notion that it either murdered or knowingly allowed to be murdered three thousand of its own citizens. In short, debunkers – including, of course, non-American ones – are defending America.

[Wildy]

Often I find myself in the position of defending my view on 9/11 to someone from another country here at JREF. There seems to be many Europeans, Canadians, maybe even others, who can’t wait to take the position that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. Wishful thinking maybe? It’s almost like…

“See America isn’t so great.”

What the hell are you on about?

It doesn't take 11/9 to say "See, the US isn't so great".

What about healthcare? Even before 11/9 the health system of the US was inferior to many countries.
That whole mm/dd/yyyy system probably counts as well, it looks like only you guys use it. Why? Is it to feel special? Thanks to the attacks on September 11, and that system I now live through two 9/11's. One in September, and one in November.
Or Gun Control? You guys have a serious problem with that, I mean what kind of crappy gun responsibility education do you guys have?
Wages are another, what is the point of exploiting your lowest class of people by paying them a wage that they can't live off of?
That whole "We're number one" thing. Again, it makes you look rather stuck up.
A rather poor electoral system. Apart from it being rather confusing, it also seems to enjoy letting people know that you really only have two options.

Although do you think that non-US citizens/residents, should not be allowed to argue this issue?

Resentment? Has America reminded you of what your country is not in the past? Did you take any pleasure in watching the greatest nation in the history of the world take a shot on 9/11? Just a little bit?

Yeah, lets take a look at that. Australia has very few parallels to the US in it's history so I fail to see how this is of any relevance.

And besides, the US isn't the "greatest nation in the history of the world". The UK probably has a far better claim to that. As would most of Europe, China, India, Egypt, Iran, Turkey, maybe even Thailand.

And I am sure I could find many things in the military history of the US to laugh about as well.

Now before anyone gets me wrong I haven’t ruled out that America was caught with its pants down on 9/11. I just didn’t consider that possibility in an attempt to bring America down to the level of second best. A far, far, behind second best at that.

Hell maybe not even third best?

That depends on how you determine what "number 1" is.

Then again you seem to be one of those "ultra-patriotic I-know-what-the-Founding-Fathers-would-have-wanted-and-it-isn't-this" kind of guys.

[LastChild]

What the hell are you on about?

It doesn't take 11/9 to say "See, the US isn't so great".

What about healthcare? Even before 11/9 the health system of the US was inferior to many countries.
That whole mm/dd/yyyy system probably counts as well, it looks like only you guys use it. Why? Is it to feel special? Thanks to the attacks on September 11, and that system I now live through two 9/11's. One in September, and one in November.
Or Gun Control? You guys have a serious problem with that, I mean what kind of crappy gun responsibility education do you guys have?
Wages are another, what is the point of exploiting your lowest class of people by paying them a wage that they can't live off of?
That whole "We're number one" thing. Again, it makes you look rather stuck up.
A rather poor electoral system. Apart from it being rather confusing, it also seems to enjoy letting people know that you really only have two options.

Although do you think that non-US citizens/residents, should not be allowed to argue this issue?



Yeah, lets take a look at that. Australia has very few parallels to the US in it's history so I fail to see how this is of any relevance.

And besides, the US isn't the "greatest nation in the history of the world". The UK probably has a far better claim to that. As would most of Europe, China, India, Egypt, Iran, Turkey, maybe even Thailand.

And I am sure I could find many things in the military history of the US to laugh about as well.



That depends on how you determine what "number 1" is.

Then again you seem to be one of those "ultra-patriotic I-know-what-the-Founding-Fathers-would-have-wanted-and-it-isn't-this" kind of guys.

You sound kind of resentful. Thank you.

[Undesired Walrus]

An utterly pathetic poster.

Grow up.

[Wildy]

You sound kind of resentful. Thank you.

That's all you have to say?

So even though you act as though you love your country you aren't going to even try and defend it?

Besides, I'm not that resentful of the USA, what I don't like are the US Citizens who always go on and on about the US being the best country in the world, that they have the most freedoms, they they are this, and that, and some other thing.

Listening to people like that is like listening to people complain that "the terrorists aren't playing fair because they are using unconventional tactics".

The things you really need to understand is that:

1. There is no all round #1 country, in the same way that there isn't a #2 country, or a #3 country, etc.

2. Blind patriotism is pointless. If you believe that your country is the greatest country but fail to even accept that there are failings in all sections of your society then you aren't doing anything worthwhile. You won't be able to improve your country internally because you are blind to real problems and refuse to accept that they exist, and you aren't helping externally because you come across as a stuck up, ignorant fool.

[Alt+F4]

That whole mm/dd/yyyy system probably counts as well, it looks like only you guys use it. Why? Is it to feel special?

You left out the fact that we still refuse to use the metric system.

Sorry LC, but all the American resentment in the world still doesn't change the fact that 19 insane men murdered almost 3000 people in one day.

[RedIbis]

What are you trying to say Apollo? Hemingway the great American ripped off Donn? What are you resentful?


Just kidding. Good post.

Good writers "rip off", great writers steal.

[patchbunny]

Understood - it simply means that you can't have a cake look all pretty and pristine and then go eat parts of it expecting it to look the way it did before you ate it. One or the other.

That's why you have to buy two cakes.

[Wildy]

You left out the fact that we still refuse to use the metric system.

Well a few other countries don't either and over here we sort of use both depending on what we are talking about (height for example, or spanner sizes...), so it isn't as bad.

[Apollo20]

LastChild:

I think a lot of people DO have a problem accepting that the mighty US could be humbled by a bunch of "amateurs on a mission"; and I suspect this line of thinking fuels the Truth Movement. But this raises an interesting point: if the 9/11 attacks were indeed carried out by 19 jihadists without any outside help, did these terrorists not consider that the US would bring down some heavy-duty retribution on someone? Certainly, in WW II, it is known that in Yugoslavia the Nazis would simply kill villagers at random in an attempt to curb attacks from Yugoslav "freedom-fighters". Now, since the 19 attackers were on a suicide mission, who should the US punish and how can the US ever come to terms with what happened?

[CptColumbo]

You left out the fact that we still refuse to use the metric system.

Sorry LC, but all the American resentment in the world still doesn't change the fact that 19 insane men murdered almost 3000 people in one day.
At least we drive on the right side of the road, literally. :)

[CptColumbo]

Good writers "rip off", great writers steal.
And if your gonna steal, don't go to Woolworth's, do it at Harrod's.

[gumboot]

Well a few other countries don't either and over here we sort of use both depending on what we are talking about (height for example, or spanner sizes...), so it isn't as bad.


Liberia, Myanmar and the USA are the only countries in the world that do not use SI as their primary or sole system of units.

[Alt+F4]

if the 9/11 attacks were indeed carried out by 19 jihadists without any outside help, did these terrorists not consider that the US would bring down some heavy-duty retribution on someone?

That's why in the end, terrorism never succeeds. Terrorism doesn't get the terrorists what they want. Has it succeeded in accomplishing anything but adding to mayhem and loss and hatred. Does it feed anyone? Put a roof over anyone's head? Provide anyone with health care? Does it educate the young to do anything but kill and destroy and waste their lives?

I can only belive that those 19 murderers cared nothing about the retaliation their actions would bring down on tens of thousands of their Muslim brothers and sisters. They cared only for themselves.

[Pardalis]

Globalization.


Such as the internet.

We've had a Canadian troofer here, and a Dutch troofer (and every troofer known to man has rallied around the great Danny Jawenko), and an Aussie troofer.


And an bunch of them from Manchester, for some reason.

[Finnegan]

There is a huge amount of anti-americanism in Britain. It helps us to forget that our country took part in the Iraq war as well.

[LashL]

Good lord, I'm agreeing with RedIbis, Dictator Cheney, and Apollo20 all at the same time. If it weren't on such obvious points (to wit, that the 9/11 attacks were primarily attacks on civilians and that they concern us all regardless of what country we live in), I'd fear a serious rift in the time-space continuum.

Respectfully,
Myriad


Great Scott! Me, too.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_111034802555886b5b.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=11723)

[pomeroo]

Oh come on. It doesn't bother some of you just a little how we had to come and fight your battles for you in the past? The big brother turned into the little sister can't feel good can it?


Your confusion must be contagious. Am I to understand that you are now channeling your irrational hatred for America into an attack on nations that sympathized with us over the jihadist attacks? Surely you are aware of the fact that Saddam's Iraq was alone in refusing to express condolences.

Many of us have posed this question before, to no avail, but what can your point possibly be?

[LastChild]

I am far from a mindless flag waving Yankee Doodle dandy pissing red white and blue. Just ask some of the people around here. That being said I still believe even with all it's faults the United States is the greatest nation this world has ever seen. Any other civilization present or past pales in comparison. Do I know there are those who disagree? Sure I expect it. I await the blowhards and their “history according to them” lessons.

In any case I feel one of the reasons the US has reach its position of World Power is because its people are never satisfied. In that respect I'm about as American as it gets. This so-called investigation into 9/11 doesn't satisfy me in the least and I suspect I will never be completely satisfied at this point but what we have thus far doesn't even count as a valid attempt if you ask me.

The fact that people from other countries are completely satisfied with the half ass investigative attempts so far doesn't really surprise me in the least. Hell some of you still buy into royalty. Most of us (except for some republicans) got over that nonsense over 200 years ago. Next time something with a crown tries to parade around your streets why don't you throw a rock at them? We are not supposed to as Americans accept "do it because I say so" or "believe it because I say so". Our representatives are supposed to work for us not the other way around. I think when some from other countries witness us not accepting something just because we are told to (like they have to) this also brings out a little bit of resentment. And if some of you feel your countries are as great and maybe even more so then the US remember where you got most of your ideas from in the first place. It would also serve you to remember you and your country have a long way to go before you start assuming to tell me what I should be satisfied with.

[gc051360]

The OP seems kind of odd. It seems he is displaying some nationalism, but he is also a truther. He seems to be trying to get into a "my country is better than your country", but he believes his country....is downright evil.

Or at least he doesn't know if it's evil or not. That's what the unspecified all encompassing "INVESTIGATION" is supposed to uncover.

In any case I feel one of the reasons the US has reach its position of World Power is because its people are never satisfied
I think it's due to it's industrial power. Specifically during the period of World War 2. That's kind of where the US became that whole economic superpower, thing.

This so-called investigation into 9/11 doesn't satisfy me in the least and I suspect I will never be completely satisfied at this point but what we have thus far doesn't even count as a valid attempt if you ask me.
Well, I'm not gonna ask you, because you can't even construct a coherent argument as to why the investigation wasn't satisfactory, or why we would need a new one. When asked, you either try and dodge, or post some links that you didn't read, but you liked the headline.

The fact that people from other countries are completely satisfied with the half ass investigative attempts so far doesn't really surprise me in the least.
It seems to me that most Americans are pretty satisfied with the investigation as well.

It would also serve you to remember you and your country have a long way to go before you start assuming to tell me what I should be satisfied with.
I think you should research, and learn a bit about other countries before you start making these types of assumptions.

I am an American. I do not buy into this 9-11 truth movement at all. I believe that the basic narrative of the 9-11 Commission Report is correct, and that the buildings came down due to fire and structural damage. In your mind, what does that say about me? I see no need for a new investigation.

eta: Just for my own personal information LastChild. Have you ever been out of the country? Ever been to Europe, or anything like that?

[CptColumbo]

Great Scott! Me, too.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_111034802555886b5b.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=11723)

Settle down, that's the worst-case scenario. It may be confined to our local galaxy.

[pomeroo]

How is it a contradiction? Now I myself don't believe it but some Americans would go as far as to think no other group or country could successfully attack America without the help of America. Even in the official version the hijackers trained in America. I believe UBL was educated in America. Let's read how the people whispering in President Bush's ear think...

The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'" – 2002 Senior adviser to President Bush

All I'm claiming is that it's possible that the motivation for some people to want to believe America was caught with its pants down is their resentment towards America.


Senior advisers to the President generally have names. Can you be a bit more specific? What is your source here? Is it a work of non-fiction?

Incidentally, absolutely nobody "believes" that Osama was educated in the U.S.

[peteweaver]

I'm a Brit, and unless Europe becomes a country I'm not a European. ;-)
I'm also skeptical of the EU, politicians, religions, and pseudo science.

[CptColumbo]

I am far from a mindless flag waving Yankee Doodle dandy pissing red white and blue. Just ask some of the people around here. That being said I still believe even with all it's faults the United States is the greatest nation this world has ever seen. Any other civilization present or past pales in comparison. Do I know there are those who disagree? Sure I expect it. I await the blowhards and their “history according to them” lessons.

In any case I feel one of the reasons the US has reach its position of World Power is because its people are never satisfied. In that respect I'm about as American as it gets. This so-called investigation into 9/11 doesn't satisfy me in the least and I suspect I will never be completely satisfied at this point but what we have thus far doesn't even count as a valid attempt if you ask me.

The fact that people from other countries are completely satisfied with the half ass investigative attempts so far doesn't really surprise me in the least. Hell some of you still buy into royalty. Most of us (except for some republicans) got over that nonsense over 200 years ago. Next time something with a crown tries to parade around your streets why don't you throw a rock at them? We are not supposed to as Americans accept "do it because I say so" or "believe it because I say so". Our representatives are supposed to work for us not the other way around. I think when some from other countries witness us not accepting something just because we are told to (like they have to) this also brings out a little bit of resentment. And if some of you feel your countries are as great and maybe even more so then the US remember where you got most of your ideas from in the first place. It would also serve you to remember you and your country have a long way to go before you start assuming to tell me what I should be satisfied with.[bolding mine]
So, your real problem is that non-Americans believe the investigations into 9-11, conducted by a country they want to prove is less than competent, were done competently?

Who on the JREF board said they were "completely satisfied?"

[stateofgrace]

I am far from a mindless flag waving Yankee Doodle dandy pissing red white and blue.

Of course you are not

And if some of you feel your countries are as great and maybe even more so then the US remember where you got most of your ideas from in the first place. It would also serve you to remember you and your country have a long way to go before you start assuming to tell me what I should be satisfied with.
You are just a sad parody of a mindless flag waving Yankee Doodle dandy who as a superiority complex, suffers delusions of grandeur and thinks that the rest of the planet is not entitled to an opinion unless it is sanctioned by yourself.

[pomeroo]

I am far from a mindless flag waving Yankee Doodle dandy pissing red white and blue. Just ask some of the people around here. That being said I still believe even with all it's faults the United States is the greatest nation this world has ever seen. Any other civilization present or past pales in comparison. Do I know there are those who disagree? Sure I expect it. I await the blowhards and their “history according to them” lessons.

In any case I feel one of the reasons the US has reach its position of World Power is because its people are never satisfied. In that respect I'm about as American as it gets. This so-called investigation into 9/11 doesn't satisfy me in the least and I suspect I will never be completely satisfied at this point but what we have thus far doesn't even count as a valid attempt if you ask me.

The fact that people from other countries are completely satisfied with the half ass investigative attempts so far doesn't really surprise me in the least. Hell some of you still buy into royalty. Most of us (except for some republicans) got over that nonsense over 200 years ago. Next time something with a crown tries to parade around your streets why don't you throw a rock at them? We are not supposed to as Americans accept "do it because I say so" or "believe it because I say so". Our representatives are supposed to work for us not the other way around. I think when some from other countries witness us not accepting something just because we are told to (like they have to) this also brings out a little bit of resentment. And if some of you feel your countries are as great and maybe even more so then the US remember where you got most of your ideas from in the first place. It would also serve you to remember you and your country have a long way to go before you start assuming to tell me what I should be satisfied with.


Ah, I had to wade through two pages of drivel before you revealed your game. You were beaten to a pulp when you attempted to foist upon the adults here your fantasy that the 9/11 Commission "investigated" the jihadist attacks. People across the political spectrum exposed your clumsy deception and called your attention to the unprecedentedly massive investigation conducted by several agencies acting in concert. Now, you are claiming to unsatisfied with "the" investigation. What investigation would that be? The real one that began within hours of the last attack and quickly discovered the identities of the hijackers? Tell us what was overlooked. The 9/11 Commission's attempt to establish an accurate timeline? What mistakes did the commission make?

Tell us why the most comprehensive investigation in history was "half-assed." You have a habit of running away when asked if the FBI is part of your imaginary conspiracy. How about clarifying this issue?

[Architect]

And an bunch of them from Manchester, for some reason.


I just work there. An architect living within sight of his buildings? Don't be daft...

[Dr Adequate]

Often I find myself in the position of defending my view on 9/11 to someone from another country here at JREF. There seems to be many Europeans, Canadians, maybe even others, who can’t wait to take the position that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. Wishful thinking maybe? It’s almost like…

“See America isn’t so great.”

Resentment? Has America reminded you of what your country is not in the past? Did you take any pleasure in watching the greatest nation in the history of the world take a shot on 9/11? Just a little bit? But you see, or rather you would see if you had any common sense, you do not need to invoke some sort of special ad hoc fantasy to explain why non-Americans treat you and your kind exactly the same as Americans do. The reason that people of all nations treat you with exactly the same sort of ridicule and contempt is the same for non-Americans as for Americans --- it's because people of all nations can see that you are ridiculous and contemptible.

[NickUK]

And an bunch of them from Manchester, for some reason.

It is strange. Could be we feel some kinship after our own terrorist attack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Manchester_bombing) in 1996, although we enjoyed some luck that day.

Personally, the reason I have an interest in 9/11 is because it's the most historic event I've lived through, and a day I will never forget. Also worth noting that the UK lost 67 (I think) people (more than 7/7).

I occasionally weigh in against 9/11 conspiracy theories because I'm not a moron.

[Myriad]

I just work there. An architect living within sight of his buildings? Don't be daft...


I thought the architects' ideal was to live in your own buildings, so you wouldn't have to look at them. :D

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Tweeter]

Ive asked the same question before. Why do foreigners even care about the US and its dealings? Most americans dont give two ***** about the rest of the world. So why are the majority of debunkers non-american? All of the information you have was from outside sources. You need to of lived in America that day to realize what really happened. Foreigners dont have a clue.

[NickUK]

I thought the architects' ideal was to live in your own buildings, so you wouldn't have to look at them. :D

Respectfully,
Myriad

He'd need a few quid to live in the Beetham Tower! I'm staying there on the 26th and it's costing me an arm and a leg AND it doesn't include breakfast. I'm PMing Architect for a refund if anything isn't to my liking :p

[LashL]

Settle down, that's the worst-case scenario. It may be confined to our local galaxy.


Whew, that's a relief. ;)

Also worth noting that the UK lost 67 (I think) people


24 Canadians also died in the attacks that day. :(

[Brainache]

Although the 9/11 attacks happened on the other side of the world from me, the stupidity of the CTs is everywhere. I don't have the ability to fight the terrorists, but I can oppose the enemies of reason here on the internets. I choose to do it with humour. Sue me.

[Dr Adequate]

Ive asked the same question before. Why do foreigners even care about the US and its dealings? Most americans dont give two ***** about the rest of the world. Even were that true, that would be no need to take it as a model for emulation.

So why are the majority of debunkers non-american? They aren't, unless by "debunkers" you merely mean "people who haven't been conned by the Truth Movement", in which case that would be because the non-American population of the world is bigger than the American population.

All of the information you have was from outside sources. As opposed to making stuff up. Yes indeed.

Where do you get your information from? Does it come from the world external to you, or does it just burgeon spontaneously in your head?

You need to of lived in America that day to realize what really happened. Foreigners dont have a clue. Well, this raises a few obvious questions.

(1) Does the same apply to non-Americans who are part of the Twoof Delusion, or are they miraculously exempt?

(2) You write "You need to of lived in America that day to realize what really happened". Why? Non-Americans had just as good a view of the events as Americans who didn't happen to live in New York. We saw it on telly, like you did.

(3) What is there to prevent Americans who "realize what really happened" from telling the rest of us, so that we all know?

[Oxigen]

Ive asked the same question before. Why do foreigners even care about the US and its dealings? Most americans dont give two ***** about the rest of the world. So why are the majority of debunkers non-american? All of the information you have was from outside sources. You need to of lived in America that day to realize what really happened. Foreigners dont have a clue.

Try and get on a plane now and take a bottle of water with you in Europe. You start getting fairly p***ed off with the American acceptance of 9/11.

[stateofgrace]

Ive asked the same question before. Why do foreigners even care about the US and its dealings?
By foreigners, I assume you mean the other 95 % of the planet that does not live inside the US. The reason the other 95 % of the planet cares is because what happened on Sept 11th affected the rest of the planet. Many nations lost their citizens on Sept 11th and many nations did then and continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with the US in her commitment to capture and punish all those involved in this dreadful terrorist attack.
Most americans dont give two ***** about the rest of the world.
Please allow me to reword this for you.

"I,as an American,do not give two ****s about the rest of the world."

So why are the majority of debunkers non-american?

Because many non-Americans actually do care about the rest of the planet.
All of the information you have was from outside sources.
I take it you mean non US news outlets.
You need to of lived in America that day to realize what really happened.
Just like you,right?

Foreigners dont have a clue.


Indeed.

[Bobert]

I was right about referring to LC as a troll a week ago

[gumboot]

Ive asked the same question before. Why do foreigners even care about the US and its dealings? Most americans dont give two ***** about the rest of the world. So why are the majority of debunkers non-american? All of the information you have was from outside sources. You need to of lived in America that day to realize what really happened. Foreigners dont have a clue.


I was wondering how long that would take.

[gumboot]

I am far from a mindless flag waving Yankee Doodle dandy pissing red white and blue. Just ask some of the people around here. That being said I still believe even with all it's faults the United States is the greatest nation this world has ever seen. Any other civilization present or past pales in comparison. Do I know there are those who disagree? Sure I expect it. I await the blowhards and their “history according to them” lessons.

In any case I feel one of the reasons the US has reach its position of World Power is because its people are never satisfied. In that respect I'm about as American as it gets. This so-called investigation into 9/11 doesn't satisfy me in the least and I suspect I will never be completely satisfied at this point but what we have thus far doesn't even count as a valid attempt if you ask me.

The fact that people from other countries are completely satisfied with the half ass investigative attempts so far doesn't really surprise me in the least. Hell some of you still buy into royalty. Most of us (except for some republicans) got over that nonsense over 200 years ago. Next time something with a crown tries to parade around your streets why don't you throw a rock at them? We are not supposed to as Americans accept "do it because I say so" or "believe it because I say so". Our representatives are supposed to work for us not the other way around. I think when some from other countries witness us not accepting something just because we are told to (like they have to) this also brings out a little bit of resentment. And if some of you feel your countries are as great and maybe even more so then the US remember where you got most of your ideas from in the first place. It would also serve you to remember you and your country have a long way to go before you start assuming to tell me what I should be satisfied with.


This post reads like it was written by a whiney, no-nothing obnoxious snotty little child.

[Drudgewire]

You need to of lived in America that day to realize what really happened. Foreigners dont have a clue.
Says the guy whose stupid movement was basically launched by a guy named Thierry Meyssan. :boxedin:

[1337m4n]

LastChild and Tweeter:


Are you aware that the first 9/11 conspiracy theories were started by Frenchmen?

http://images.quizilla.com/J/jackee/1037956530_ench-guard.jpg

[Walter Ego]

At least they're not correcting you on the proper use of your native language. :usa:

[Slayhamlet]

Try and get on a plane now and take a bottle of water with you in Europe. You start getting fairly p***ed off with the American acceptance of 9/11.

What an utterly shallow and inane comment. Luckily, I know it reflects only your own character and not on that of all Europeans.

[Drudgewire]

LastChild and Tweeter:


Are you aware that the first 9/11 conspiracy theories were started by Frenchmen?
Heehee, beat you to the point by three minutes while you were looking for the Monty Python picture. :p

[1337m4n]

Heehee, beat you to the point by three minutes while you were looking for the Monty Python picture. :p

Curses!

[Jonnyclueless]

This post reads like it was written by a whiney, no-nothing obnoxious snotty little child.

I highlighted the portion of your post that does not belong. Probably a typo.

[PhantomWolf]

Well apart from the victims of 9/11 being from more countries than just the US (including one Kiwi, though he always gets added to the US count since he was living in the US at the time) who says the US is the greatest country in the world anyway? Sure it has a lot of wealth, but in most other areas it's well behind. Here's a sample.

UNICEF rankings of Western educational systems – 18th (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/26/world/main530872.shtml)
World Health Systems (http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html) – 37th
Murders (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita) - 24th (Only behind South Africa in the Developed Western World)
Rapes (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita) – 9th
Assults (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita) – 6th (not that we aren't that far behind.)
International Debt (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_deb_ext-economy-debt-external) – 1st
Population below the Poverty Line (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_bel_pov_lin-economy-population-below-poverty-line) – at 12% #122 (better than the UK and Canada, but below Ireland, France and even China, which has the 2nd most poor people in the world.) NOTE: Australia and New Zealand didn't make the list, though if this is due to no figures of being too low to make it I don't know.
Unemployment (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_une-labor-unemployment) – 11th of the 18 listed, better than New Zealand, Australia and the UK, but nowhere near the Scandinavia countries.
Average income (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gro_nat_inc_percap-gross-national-income-per-capita) - 5th, good, but still behind Luxembourg, Switzerland, Japan, and Norway.
Wages per capita (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_wor_rem_and_com_of_emp_pai_us_percap-employees-paid-us-per-capita) – 34th
Economic Freedom (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_eco_fre-economy-economic-freedom) – 8th, behind NZ, Ireland and Denmark.
Divorce Rate (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate) – 1st
Teenage Birth Rates (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_tee_bir_rat-people-teenage-birth-rate) – 1st
Life Satisfaction (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_lif_sat-lifestyle-life-satisfaction) – 13th
Happiness (http://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/hap_nat/nat_fp.htm) – 17th

Interestingly the US is 2nd on Pride in their country, a fraction of a percent behind Ireland.

[stateofgrace]

Try and get on a plane now and take a bottle of water with you in Europe. You start getting fairly p***ed off with the American acceptance of 9/11.

Really?

The last time I got on a plane in Europe and was asked to declare any liquids I was hand carrying,the thought of American acceptance of 911 was the last thing from my mind.

Are you sure you haven’t just made this up?

[Damien Evans]

America was caught with its pants down. Australians lost their lives that day. Then more lost their lives when a related terrorist group made moves closer to home a year and a bit on. As such, I'll weigh in on the discussion, on these public internet forums, whenever I damn well please.



Sorry, you'll have to run that one by me again...when did the USA have to come and fight battles for us?

ETA - You may also not realise this, but there are a great many people who don't think that the USA is, "[T]he greatest nation in the history of the world," or indeed even in the top three.

Maybe he's talking about Buna. Oh, wait, that was us bailing the Americans out. Hmm...

[Jonnyclueless]

Try and get on a plane now and take a bottle of water with you in Europe. You start getting fairly p***ed off with the American acceptance of 9/11.


And thus the NWO plot to take over the world by depriving us of our right to carry liquids on a plane was a raving success!

[PhantomWolf]

And thus the NWO plot to take over the world by depriving us of our right to carry liquids on a plane was a raving success!

Sush, you're not supposed to let them know that the plot was to remove bottled water from them so that they would instead have to consume vast quantities of the free alcohol, thus becoming more susceptible to the chemtrails being pumped from the plane as it flies.

[Dog Town]

Have not read the whole thread, that being said!

Answer to the OP: Because even foreign folk's have a brain! You however...
Nuff said!

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I am far from a mindless flag waving Yankee Doodle dandy pissing red white and blue. Just ask some of the people around here. That being said I still believe even with all it's faults the United States is the greatest nation this world has ever seen. Any other civilization present or past pales in comparison. Do I know there are those who disagree? Sure I expect it. I await the blowhards and their “history according to them” lessons.

In any case I feel one of the reasons the US has reach its position of World Power is because its people are never satisfied. In that respect I'm about as American as it gets. This so-called investigation into 9/11 doesn't satisfy me in the least and I suspect I will never be completely satisfied at this point but what we have thus far doesn't even count as a valid attempt if you ask me.

The fact that people from other countries are completely satisfied with the half ass investigative attempts so far doesn't really surprise me in the least. Hell some of you still buy into royalty. Most of us (except for some republicans) got over that nonsense over 200 years ago. Next time something with a crown tries to parade around your streets why don't you throw a rock at them? We are not supposed to as Americans accept "do it because I say so" or "believe it because I say so". Our representatives are supposed to work for us not the other way around. I think when some from other countries witness us not accepting something just because we are told to (like they have to) this also brings out a little bit of resentment. And if some of you feel your countries are as great and maybe even more so then the US remember where you got most of your ideas from in the first place. It would also serve you to remember you and your country have a long way to go before you start assuming to tell me what I should be satisfied with.

The bolded portion is about the only thing you've said here that's remotely true. The rest is self-serving blatantly dishonest crapola.

Nothing says rabid reflexive unthinking America hatred quite like "9/11 was an inside job".

You're one of the biggest america-haters here, LC. As is evidenced by your instinctive blaming of your countrymen for what has been long proven an attack by hostile foreign agressors.

[LastChild]

The bolded portion is about the only thing you've said here that's remotely true. The rest is self-serving blatantly dishonest crapola.

Nothing says rabid reflexive unthinking America hatred quite like "9/11 was an inside job".

You're one of the biggest america-haters here, LC. As is evidenced by your instinctive blaming of your countrymen for what has been long proven an attack by hostile foreign agressors.

The only thing I've blamed my own country men of is not doing a complete investigation. A real American doesn't reward failure.

[Dog Town]

The only thing I've blamed my own country men of is not doing a complete investigation. A real American doesn't reward failure.

That's not real is it? Your statement of falsehood. Sadly we do, ad nauseum! Now that's a fact!

[Pardalis]

It is strange. Could be we feel some kinship after our own terrorist attack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Manchester_bombing) in 1996, although we enjoyed some luck that day.

I was talking about Pdoh and his socks. ;)

[PhantomWolf]

The only thing I've blamed my own country men of is not doing a complete investigation. A real American doesn't reward failure.

Say the product of an Education system rated the 18th out of 24 developed countries...

[Jonnyclueless]

By complete investigation he means one that ignores the truth and comes up with a conspiracy that supports his political views.

[VespaGuy]

That being said I still believe even with all it's faults the United States is the greatest nation this world has ever seen.

So, the fact that the US Government is willing to kill 3000 of its own citizens would be one of its "faults"?

[Dog Town]

Say the product of an Education system rated the 18th out of 24 developed countries...

True, but our private schools ROCK! Besides...40 million illeagals don't help the skew!
Capiche?

[gc051360]

True, but our private schools ROCK! Besides...40 million illeagals don't help the skew!
Capiche?

Our higher education is the best in the world.

By complete investigation he means one that ignores the truth and comes up with a conspiracy that supports his political views.
If everything was held to the standard of proof that LastChild wants for 9-11....nobody would ever be convicted of a crime. Ever.

[PhantomWolf]

True, but our private schools ROCK! Besides...40 million illeagals don't help the skew!
Capiche?

So what you're trying hard not to say is it's all them dumb as Hispanics that are dragging down the intelligent rich white folk's scores?

[gc051360]

So what you're trying hard not to say is it's all them dumb as Hispanics that are dragging down the intelligent rich white folk's scores?

It's not that they're dumb. It's that they don't speak english. The standardized tests are in english.

They also leave, and go back to Mexico in the middle of the school year. A lot of them, just now have shown up in the US in the third grade, and had no schooling in Mexico...etc. etc.

eta: I think Arizona (where my mom teaches) is near the bottom in standardized test scores for elementary schools. It's not hard to figure out why.

[Dog Town]

So what you're trying hard not to say is it's all them dumb as Hispanics that are dragging down the intelligent rich white folk's scores?

I did NOT mention hispanics! There is over a MILLION Persian in LA! Bank on that. Many are my friends,ditto English, French, etc... It's a language issue. Many friends teach pub, N , private. It's REAL!

ETA: Above post from GC is correct!

[PhantomWolf]

Our higher education is the best in the world.

Depends how you look at it. While the US does have 7 of the 10 top Universities, if you look at the top 100 by population (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_uni_top_100_percap-universities-top-100-per-capita) it falls to 13th, behind Australia, New Zealand and the UK

[Dog Town]

Depends how you look at it. While the US does have 7 of the 10 top Universities, if you look at the top 100 by population (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_uni_top_100_percap-universities-top-100-per-capita) it falls to 13th, behind Australia, New Zealand and the UK


When getting jobs, the top 10 is all there is!

ETA: Do you have any idea what an Aggie Ring means in the engineering world? That's One.

[PhantomWolf]

When getting jobs, the top 10 is all there is!

Perhaps in the US, not in the rest of the world.

ETA: Do you have any idea what an Aggie Ring means in the engineering world? That's One.

I'm not an engineer, I'm a chemist. That means I have better chance of telling you about benzene rings.

[gc051360]

Depends how you look at it. While the US does have 7 of the 10 top Universities, if you look at the top 100 by population (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_uni_top_100_percap-universities-top-100-per-capita) it falls to 13th, behind Australia, New Zealand and the UK

Are we doing this by the level of education, or by how much these schools like to party?

About stats. I believe the one's that affirm my own assumptions. And if they don't, I will twist them until they fit what I want to say.

But, to get back on topic. LC, what is your point? Are you trying to say that the reason that a lot of debunkers are foreign, is because they dislike America? They resent America? How do you explain the lack of truthers within the United States?

[Dog Town]

Perhaps in the US, not in the rest of the world.

No... it's the same, the world over. Just depends on the jobs, you aspire to.

[PhantomWolf]

Are we doing this by the level of education, or by how much these schools like to party?

About stats. I believe the one's that affirm my own assumptions. And if they don't, I will twist them until they fit what I want to say.

I did it based on Population for the mere fact that a country with 300 million people is far more likely to have a good University than one with just 4 million. Sure you have 7 of the Top ten, find, but how many do you have in total and how many are terrible? We only have 7 in total! (and one of those is an agricultural one) and one of those is in the top 100 worldwide. Simply basing how good your higher education is based on your having a more great schools and universities totally ignore the number of really bad ones and that you simply have more people to throw at them.

[PhantomWolf]

No... it's the same, the world over. Just depends on the jobs, you aspire to.

Sorry to burst the bubble, but most employers over here would think you were being a stuck up snob if you waved a harvad degree at them. They value real things like Work Experience and personality over degrees. In fact when surveyed the last thing most NZ employeers look at is education.

[Dog Town]

Sorry to burst the bubble, but most employers over here would think you were being a stuck up snob if you waved a harvad degree at them. They value real things like Work Experience and personality over degrees. In fact when surveyed the last thing most NZ employeers look at is education.

Again, depends on the "HOT" jobs you aspire to. I love Kiwi land, the All Blacks rule. What was your great addition to the world? LOTR? Please...

[PhantomWolf]

Again, depends on the "HOT" jobs you aspire to. I love Kiwi land, the All Blacks rule. What was your great addition to the world? LOTR? Please...

I do hope you are joking or I might have to start naming names to take the smirk off your face. The first that Jumps to mind is a guy that qualified with 3 degrees from the University of New Zealand (as it was known back then) and when on that become the grandfather of Nuclear Power.

[Dog Town]

I do hope you are joking or I might have to start naming names to take the smirk off your face. The first that Jumps to mind is a guy that qualified with 3 degrees from the University of New Zealand (as it was known back then) and when on that become the grandfather of Nuclear Power.


Maybe you missed it, but we're going to Mars! Grandfather? Pffft... that sounds recent! Face it... the best jobs, in any field ain't in Kiwi land, where certain "schools" get ya the gig. My friends worked on LOTRings, it was hell! Bit O' help!


Sorry mod's, send this to AHHHH!

[Caper]

I think Last Child has a point. There are plenty of non-American's (and American's for that matter) that were glad to see the US hit........ More people then you would think IMO.

I'm from Canada.

[Dog Town]

I think Last Child has a point. There are plenty of non-American's (and American's for that matter) that were glad to see the US hit........ More people then you would think IMO.

I'm from Canada.



FASHION, beep...beep...

[PhantomWolf]

Funny thing that the US is buying the technology to miniturise GPS chips so they could fit well in a cellphone or (if you blieve our green party) missiles, from us, or the new DNA tests that are faster and more accurate with the smallest amounts of DNA. There are a lot of things going on in NZ in the science area that you wouldn't have a clue about.

As to going to Mars, yeah right. Heck if Obama gets in I'll be surprised if you get back to the moon when he's done with NASA's budget, and when you get right down to it the only reason your space program is better then most countries is because you have so many people you can PAY for it. If we had just the numbers you throw at your military we're be way past you. This isn't meant to be a, oh woo is us the US has all the wealth either, it's merely a statement of fact, that the US government has a way bigger budget, so pointing at programs that require that budget and saying "we're great" only proves you have a bigger chequebook. If Australia or the UK had the money to invest in going to Mars the US would get there and find them having a Tea party while watching the roos.

[Dog Town]

...blah...If Australia or the UK had the money to invest in going to Mars the US would get there and find them having a Tea party while watching the roos.


You don't get it! Sorry, no offense, I love your country, but...you ain't it! We are, deal with it. Are you suffering Oliver's cough?

[PhantomWolf]

You don't get it! Sorry, no offense, I love your country, but...you ain't it! We are, deal with it. Are you suffering Oliver's cough?

Actually you aren't. Remember a little thing the Senate passed about a year back that stated that NASA was not allowed to use any of it's budget towards planning a manned mission to Mars... Oops. Seems you aren't going to Mars and once Obama has filleted NASA for his health budget better get used to the ideaof a China Moon too.

[Dog Town]

Actually you aren't. Remember a little thing the Senate passed about a year back that stated that NASA was not allowed to use any of it's budget towards planning a manned mission to Mars... Oops. Seems you aren't going to Mars and once Obama has filleted NASA for his health budget better get used to the ideaof a China Moon too.

You're funny... A'm readn itt wid ya accent! See ya on Mars... Ooops wrong country. :D
I'm done here, howz da mudd?

[PhantomWolf]

You're funny... A'm readn itt wid ya accent! See ya on Mars... Ooops wrong country. :D
I'm done here, howz da mudd?

Not unless you're planning to make it past 2100 you won't, but hey, if you do manage to live that long, just remember to take a fistful of Yuan with you to pay the tolls. ;)

[MikeyMetz]

What makes this thread even sadder is the fact that LC seems to have no problem with:

1.)The fact that the French are credited with the first 9/11 CT's
2.)All of the 9/11 Truth groups in the UK, Canada, Australia, Italy, and Spain (not to mention, the ideas of the Japanese PM), and
3.)The fact that I can name at least 5 prominent, foreign-born truthers off the top of my head (Luke, the leader of WAC Seattle, Nico Hauppt, Boris Epstein, and my fellow co-founder of 9/11 Truth UAlbany).

It's not that I'm trying to turn this around and say, "why are all twoofers blame-America-first foreigners" or something. It's the fact that this illustrates the essential problem with twoofers: Opening their mouths, while ignoring all contradictory evidence.

[MikeyMetz]

And lest we forget how excited the twoofers always get whenever Hugo Chavez and/or Ahmedinejad (sp?) support their dumb conspiracy junk.

[Quad4_72]

I am going to volunteer to take up legal council on behalf of the people of the United States for LastChild's remarks. Here is my statement:

The comments made by LastChild are solely the opinion of LastChild. They in no way represent the opinion of the United States government or the citizens that reside within the borders.

[pomeroo]

The only thing I've blamed my own country men of is not doing a complete investigation. A real American doesn't reward failure.


How long do you think you can hide? The investigation that quickly determined the identities of the hijackers was unprecedented in its comprehensiveness. The FBI detailed more than 7,000 agents to the task.

When will you tell us if the FBI was complicit in your imaginary conspiracy? When will you explain what the various agencies overlooked?

[fromdownunder]

Ive asked the same question before. Why do foreigners even care about the US and its dealings? Most americans dont give two ***** about the rest of the world. So why are the majority of debunkers non-american? All of the information you have was from outside sources. You need to of lived in America that day to realize what really happened. Foreigners dont have a clue.

I am sorry, but this statement is just plain wrong. I was at that time a Mod. on IIDB, and I had made a lot of on-line friends over the 15 or so months that I had been posting and later Moderating.

I woke up in the morning, and saw with shock what had occured while I had been sleeping. The threads and posts by people I felt I knew fairly well and considered friends, shock, horror, bewliderment, confusion, unless you were there, sharing the horror these people felt, YOU don't know much about that day.

I had CNN news on 16 hours a day 5 days straight following 9/11. I talked to hundreds of people on the Board, by PM, and by e-mail. We had concerns about our members who lived in NY who had not signed in, we were sharing intimate and heartfelt details about pretty much everything. We were a GLOBAL community of friends.

I did the best I could in that week. It was not much - there was not a lot I could do except express sympathy, but don't ever tell me that I do not realize or have a clue what happened that day.

What I saw on TV horrified me. I watched the news non stop for 5 days. It changed my life. What I felt and the changes I saw in the minds of people whom had become friends frightened me. From a fairly carefree, happy and humourous group, the whole tone of IIDB lost something. it was innocence that had been lost, and life would never be the same again.

And life has not been the same since. Anywhere on this entire mudball. It has changed me for life, just as the events of 9/11 changed my friends in the USA.

Norm

[Travis]

Silly arguments over who's education/health/measurement system is better is exactly the type of bickering LastChild was hoping to cultivate.

Congratulations!

This may be the only thread to actually accomplish what a Truther wants.

[Jonnyclueless]

And why do so many American conspiracy theorists weigh in about Israel?

[Arus808]

I need to start a new thread called "Why do so many people not use the ignore function?"

agreed. LC has been here long enough to stop JAQing off. he's been given his answers, and he ignores it.

so we should ignore those that refuses to learn, and just repat the same crap they posted , only 10 days later.

LC is a troll .nothng more.


as per his OP. this is another attempt at him, trolling for respones, and like we always do, we fall for it.

[lee5]

Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here?

My guess:

1. Since there is not an emotional involvement (other than the human one), they are usually able to look at the situation in a rational, mature manner.

2. It has been my experience that Europeans are usually better educated than us American folk.

3. Some may have a slight hint of "we are better than you" attitude on the subject.

4. Some like to talk about something that they don't really know nothing about.

5. Some are genuinely concerned on the matter.

6. Some are interested in history and historic events.

I believe that there is probably a big list of reasons....
Whats your point?

[Tweeter]

I am sorry, but this statement is just plain wrong. I was at that time a Mod. on IIDB, and I had made a lot of on-line friends over the 15 or so months that I had been posting and later Moderating.

I woke up in the morning, and saw with shock what had occured while I had been sleeping. The threads and posts by people I felt I knew fairly well and considered friends, shock, horror, bewliderment, confusion, unless you were there, sharing the horror these people felt, YOU don't know much about that day.

I had CNN news on 16 hours a day 5 days straight following 9/11. I talked to hundreds of people on the Board, by PM, and by e-mail. We had concerns about our members who lived in NY who had not signed in, we were sharing intimate and heartfelt details about pretty much everything. We were a GLOBAL community of friends.

I did the best I could in that week. It was not much - there was not a lot I could do except express sympathy, but don't ever tell me that I do not realize or have a clue what happened that day.

[b]What I saw on TV horrified me. I watched the news non stop for 5 days. It changed my life. What I felt and the changes I saw in the minds of people whom had become friends frightened me. From a fairly carefree, happy and humourous group, the whole tone of IIDB lost something. it was innocence that had been lost, and life would never be the same again.

And life has not been the same since. Anywhere on this entire mudball. It has changed me for life, just as the events of 9/11 changed my friends in the USA.

Norm

Norm , youre the first person here that i actually believe is telling the truth in their experience.
You say you watched it for days on the "TV". Thats just my point, you needed to be here in the US to really experience the propaganda bomb they dropped on us.You could see in most people eyesdistrust and the loss of innocence just as your group did.
Life will never be the same, but you dont have to promote it.

[gtc]

Norm , youre the first person here that i actually believe is telling the truth in their experience.
You say you watched it for days on the "TV". Thats just my point, you needed to be here in the US to really experience the propaganda bomb they dropped on us.You could see in most people eyesdistrust and the loss of innocence just as your group did.
Life will never be the same, but you dont have to promote it.

I'm not an American. I experienced the events after 9/11 by watching the news, reading newspapers and through online news websites (including US sources). Part of my job was to monitor the effects of the events on the economy and the financial system (both globally and in Australia) and to help assess how robust our systems would be in the event of a similar attack here or elsewhere. In the aftermath, a lot of security systems and procedures were upgraded as people became aware that terrorism threatened not only America but that anywhere was a potential target.* Some of these changes were probably unnecesary, such as my local Westfields Shopping Centre no longer allowing people to walk through the centre to the train station prior to the start of trading, but that is another thread. Our organisation had a branch in one of the buildings on the WTC site; fortunately all our employees were quickly accounted for but the building was highly damaged and the office was relocated. We all knew of people who had transferred to that branch and some were very good friends.

What I am wondering is how your experience differed to ours. In what way did you experience the events that we, as foreigners, could not experience. Obviously if you were actually in NYC, your experience would be much different. But I wonder how the experience of someone in Detroit differed from someone in Windsor for instance.


*I dare say that the major cities in the West (Toronto, London, Paris, Frankfurt, Sydney, Singapore etc) face a higher threat than small towns in America.

[gumboot]

Silly arguments over who's education/health/measurement system is better is exactly the type of bickering LastChild was hoping to cultivate.

Congratulations!

This may be the only thread to actually accomplish what a Truther wants.


I was thinking the same thing.

[gtc]

I was thinking the same thing.

Only an American or a New Zealander would think that way. :catfight:

But seriously, there are many ways to measure countries and every person will put a different weight on those measures when deciding which is the 'best' country.

[ush]

Oh come on. It doesn't bother some of you just a little how we had to come and fight your battles for you in the past? The big brother turned into the little sister can't feel good can it?
This, as your first post isn't even worthy of adult attention. What makes you think someone must be American to "weigh in" about the World Trade Center attacks? Anyones opinion is valid as long as it's rational my friend, the country which they happened to be born in is irrelevant.

[jhunter1163]

Norm , youre the first person here that i actually believe is telling the truth in their experience.
You say you watched it for days on the "TV". Thats just my point, you needed to be here in the US to really experience the propaganda bomb they dropped on us.You could see in most people eyesdistrust and the loss of innocence just as your group did.
Life will never be the same, but you dont have to promote it.

I agree in part with this. Pre-9/11, we Americans did have a sense that terrorism was something that happened in other countries. We felt that no one would dare to attack us here, on our soil. It was a shock to sat the least to discover that were were vulnerable after all. And, after the attacks, the outpouring of patriotism was immense.

However, I don't move in the paranoid circle that Tweeter seems to inhabit, so there was no distrust in the air around me. There was grief, and anger, and a resolve that someone was going to be made to pay for this. I'm far from a Bush fan, but I think he handled the immediate aftermath of 9/11 as well as anyone could have.

[Dave Rogers]

LastChild, can I take this as a promise that you won't be peddling any idiotic 7/7 conspiracy theories?

Dave

[Architect]

Ive asked the same question before. Why do foreigners even care about the US and its dealings? Most americans dont give two ***** about the rest of the world. So why are the majority of debunkers non-american? All of the information you have was from outside sources. You need to of lived in America that day to realize what really happened. Foreigners dont have a clue.

My, what a particularly peculiar and...with respect...myopic position.

Truthers typically complain that the US media is part of the coverup, likewise that professionals/academics in the US are scared to speak up.

Yet you have a bunch of us from outwith the US, with independent media sources, who frankly would never lose or jobs if we spoke up, and then you complain that we don't really understand your country?

Now I only comment on technical issues and, as you know, work on tall building design in the UK. In what way doe geography specific issues limit my ability to review - for example - fire safety or structural arguments?

[lionking]

I agree in part with this. Pre-9/11, we Americans did have a sense that terrorism was something that happened in other countries. We felt that no one would dare to attack us here, on our soil. It was a shock to sat the least to discover that were were vulnerable after all. And, after the attacks, the outpouring of patriotism was immense.

However, I don't move in the paranoid circle that Tweeter seems to inhabit, so there was no distrust in the air around me. There was grief, and anger, and a resolve that someone was going to be made to pay for this. I'm far from a Bush fan, but I think he handled the immediate aftermath of 9/11 as well as anyone could have.
Bolding mine. At the risk of providing an opinion as a foreigner, I agree.

[Architect]

Norm , youre the first person here that i actually believe is telling the truth in their experience.
You say you watched it for days on the "TV". Thats just my point, you needed to be here in the US to really experience the propaganda bomb they dropped on us.You could see in most people eyesdistrust and the loss of innocence just as your group did.
Life will never be the same, but you dont have to promote it.

Well let's look at the flip of that.

Northern Ireland was a subject very close to the heart of many Irish Americans, and the administration was traditionally supportive of the need for a negotiated solution. Yet if I apply your argument, the US and its citizens have no right to any such views. You hadn't visited Ulster, you hand't been exposed to IRA terrorism, you had only the vaguest of grasps of the political issues.

Do you agree, then, that US interest in that matter was wrong? And if you do, where do we draw the line? How many other similar issues are there?

[Architect]

Bolding mine. At the risk of providing an opinion as a foreigner, I agree.

Aye an' naw [/Scots]

Grounding planes, etc....sensible. Letting the Bin Laden family out the country....not smart. Co-ordinating the clean-up, etc......aye. Trying to limit some aspects of the investigation (allegedly)....naw. Invading Afghanistan.....maybe. Invading Iraq.....naw naw naw naw.

I don't like the guy. The lights are on and the door is open, but no-one seems to be at home. If there was a good reason to get stuck into him, I would. But damning analysis of his 9/11 response? I'm still waiting.

[Architect]

LastChild, can I take this as a promise that you won't be peddling any idiotic 7/7 conspiracy theories?

Dave


:D

[Architect]

He'd need a few quid to live in the Beetham Tower! I'm staying there on the 26th and it's costing me an arm and a leg AND it doesn't include breakfast. I'm PMing Architect for a refund if anything isn't to my liking :p

The 26th? Ohhhhh......if the wind's from the west, get out, quick! :p


My (former) boss has the penthouse, of course. Just chap on his door with any complaints!

[Architect]

At least they're not correcting you on the proper use of your native language. :usa:

Says the man that thinks we have "movie theaters" in the UK

:p

[Kage]

The whole premise of this thread is total nonsense, and the OP is pushing certain assumptions that are bunk:

LC wants people to believe that motivation determines one's views on 9/11 and government complicity in global terror. The purpose behind this is twofold. First, to attack the rationalist as someone who sees what they want to see, i.e. "the only reason you disagree with me and don't see the truth is because you want to believe that the US can be taking down by 19 terrorists in a cave." Second, is to push the idea that the CTers and the Rationalists occupy equal intellectual footing. If the difference is mostly due to motivation then there still is meaningful debate to be had. This is not the case.

LC's saying that most debunkers are from outside the US and most Truthers are American is pushing the assumption that this disparity (if it actually exists) on JREF represents an actual disparity in the makeup of people who believe in CTs vs the "OT." This is also total bunk, given that the JREF is English language, and thus seriously under-represents the prevalence of crazy conspiracy theories in the mideast, China and non-English speaking parts of europe. My personal theory as an american debunker is at this point in time, the Truth movement is so totally bankrupt in the US most of us don't feel the need to come online to spar with people who never listen to anything. The only reason I came online was talking to college friends who had just seen loose change. I haven't come across a real live truther in 2 years, so now to me the conspiracy sub-forum here is my terrarium of delusion, and I don't stop by much. Dealing with the same old recycled drivel only to have people not respond to questions get really old quick. I do enjoy debunking for the sake of finding simple ways to debunk CTs, but Cters never listen so this is for my benefit only I'm afraid.

If you really want to play, put something original supporting your conspiracy forward, answer the questions posed to you and lets have a discussion. Where people come from has nothing to do with the validity of their arguments. If you can't win arguing with a canadian, or a brit, or an aussie, you aren't going to be able to win with an american. You don't have to live in the US to "get it" about 9/11. It doesn't come down to what news you saw or how you felt or how you measure the distance to grocery story. What determines your view on what happened on 9/11 is your ability to think clearly and put aside your prejudices. Every CT I have heard regarding 9/11 is so unreasonable that my political views don't even come into play.

[8den]

I'm Irish and got involved in challenging 911 CTers because of how much they upset a friend of mine. She's Irish too, and lost her brother in the south tower.

911 is an event that had a global effect.

Oh and oxigen you utter oaf 911 had nothing to do with whether you can carry a bottle of water on a plane. It was thee liquid bomb plot from 18 months ago that changed that. Up until then there was no question about carrying any form of liquid onto a plane.

Honestly the truth movement can't get anything right.

[Mobyseven]

Ive asked the same question before. Why do foreigners even care about the US and its dealings? Most americans dont give two ***** about the rest of the world. So why are the majority of debunkers non-american? All of the information you have was from outside sources. You need to of lived in America that day to realize what really happened. Foreigners dont have a clue.

Interesting. Because 'most Americans' (according to you*) are ignorant asswipes, the rest of the world should be ignorant asswipes too?

*This in no way represents my view of things. Indeed, I know many Americans who are genuinely concerned about the state of matters in the rest of the world, and can think of a few who I'd prefer cared less about the rest of the world...

[Jonnyclueless]

Say, how is that absurd claim that all the media in the world is controlled by the government which no one has been able to substantiate yet going? tweeter?

[Finnegan]

"I think Last Child has a point. There are plenty of non-American's (and American's for that matter) that were glad to see the US hit........ More people then you would think IMO."

Well then, all those that were glad to see three thousand innocent people killed are callous, inhumane stains of the earth. We can all establish this, surely.

[Oxigen]

I'm Irish and got involved in challenging 911 CTers because of how much they upset a friend of mine. She's Irish too, and lost her brother in the south tower.

911 is an event that had a global effect.

Oh and oxigen you utter oaf 911 had nothing to do with whether you can carry a bottle of water on a plane. It was thee liquid bomb plot from 18 months ago that changed that. Up until then there was no question about carrying any form of liquid onto a plane.

Honestly the truth movement can't get anything right.

My point is that this is a direct result of 9/11. I am not in any way trying to diminish nearly 4000 deaths, which I find absolutely horrific. Where we differ is that I am not as certain as you that 19 Arab hijackers caused it. When liquid was not allowed onto airplanes around August, 2006 I must admit my immediate thought was THIS IS A SCAM and an effort to frighten travellers with terrorism. It was in September 2006 that I first became aware of any problems with the official story although I had wondered about some stories I had heard. So my reaction to the banning of liquids was one of skeptism. 9/11 has effected most countries around the globe (which I am sure it was designed to do).

[PhantomWolf]

My point is that this is a direct result of 9/11.

No it wasn't, it was the direct result of a bunch of British Muslims thinking they could somehow carry onboard a bunch of chemicals to make an explosive.

BTW, am I one of the few non-Americans that saw the whole thing live from pre-2nd plane onwards?

[Nick Terry]

No it wasn't, it was the direct result of a bunch of British Muslims thinking they could somehow carry onboard a bunch of chemicals to make an explosive.

BTW, am I one of the few non-Americans that saw the whole thing live from pre-2nd plane onwards?

If you mean did other non-Americans see the 2nd plane hit, then I'm one. I suspect quite a few Brits were able to, because of BBC News24. I was working from home that day and got a call from a friend who'd worked in the WTC when he was in the insurance business. His initial prediction of the casualties was off by a factor of ten.

It does make you wonder, though, how many twoofers actually saw the attacks on TV as they happened. My suspicion is not that many.

[SpitfireIX]

<snip>

It does make you wonder, though, how many twoofers actually saw the attacks on TV as they happened. My suspicion is not that many.


Most of them were in elementary school at the time. The sense I've gotten from the few anecdotes I've heard is that televisions were generally not turned on in elementary classrooms to allow the students to watch.

[dudalb]

My point is that this is a direct result of 9/11. I am not in any way trying to diminish nearly 4000 deaths, which I find absolutely horrific. Where we differ is that I am not as certain as you that 19 Arab hijackers caused it. When liquid was not allowed onto airplanes around August, 2006 I must admit my immediate thought was THIS IS A SCAM and an effort to frighten travellers with terrorism. It was in September 2006 that I first became aware of any problems with the official story although I had wondered about some stories I had heard. So my reaction to the banning of liquids was one of skeptism. 9/11 has effected most countries around the globe (which I am sure it was designed to do).

Let's see: You were not allowed to bring a liquid on a plane and all of a sudden because of it you become a truther.
Wow, that really says something about the motivations of people who become Truthers.
And please tell me how banning people from carrying liquids on board planes furthers some vast evil plot.
Do you know how spoiled and petty this makes you sound?

[dudalb]

I did not tune in until after both planes hit, and that only because a friend called me up and told me to turn on the TV. I live in California and My wife and I had just gotten up when the attacks hapened. A lot of people on the West Coast who do not turn on the TV first thing in the morning did not tune in until the whole thing was over.

[Nick Terry]

Most of them were in elementary school at the time. The sense I've gotten from the few anecdotes I've heard is that televisions were generally not turned on in elementary classrooms to allow the students to watch.

Chalk up another reason for adolescent resentment: 'and Ms Perkins didn't even allow us to see what was going on when we were taking her Introductory Crayon class!!! Waaaa!!!'

[Nick Terry]

I did not tune in until after both planes hit, and that only because a friend called me up and told me to turn on the TV. I live in California and My wife and I had just gotten up when the attacks hapened. A lot of people on the West Coast who do not turn on the TV first thing in the morning did not tune in until the whole thing was over.

Ironically, then, more people in Europe would have seen the realtime events than people on the West Coast.

I doubt there's any way of working out a firm correlation among the older twoofers as to where they come from, and I might be way off, but I get the impression there's more of an East Coast than a West Coast bias.

[8den]

No it wasn't, it was the direct result of a bunch of British Muslims thinking they could somehow carry onboard a bunch of chemicals to make an explosive.

BTW, am I one of the few non-Americans that saw the whole thing live from pre-2nd plane onwards?

Hand up. Non American who was unemployed at the time, channel surfing before I was about to head out.

Didn't switch off the tv for about 13 hours.

[dudalb]

Ironically, then, more people in Europe would have seen the realtime events than people on the West Coast.

I doubt there's any way of working out a firm correlation among the older twoofers as to where they come from, and I might be way off, but I get the impression there's more of an East Coast than a West Coast bias.

That's true, it would have been around noon in Europe, but most of the West Coast was still asleep or just getting up when the planes hit.

[8den]

My point is that this is a direct result of 9/11. I am not in any way trying to diminish nearly 4000 deaths, which I find absolutely horrific. Where we differ is that I am not as certain as you that 19 Arab hijackers caused it. When liquid was not allowed onto airplanes around August, 2006 I must admit my immediate thought was THIS IS A SCAM and an effort to frighten travellers with terrorism.


Where you see paranoia and fear I see a minor inconvenience and alot of hyperbole.

As the currently unfolding trial exposes that there was a genuine threat, albeit one has to ask why I am still taking my shoes off at Heathrow.


It was in September 2006 that I first became aware of any problems with the official story although I had wondered about some stories I had heard. So my reaction to the banning of liquids was one of skeptism. 9/11 has effected most countries around the globe (which I am sure it was designed to do).

Yes by KSM and Bin Laden.

So tell us oxigen what are your issues with the "offical" story?

[CptColumbo]

The fact that people from other countries are completely satisfied with the half ass investigative attempts so far doesn't really surprise me in the least. Hell some of you still buy into royalty. Most of us (except for some republicans) got over that nonsense over 200 years ago. Next time something with a crown tries to parade around your streets why don't you throw a rock at them? We are not supposed to as Americans accept "do it because I say so" or "believe it because I say so". Our representatives are supposed to work for us not the other way around. I think when some from other countries witness us not accepting something just because we are told to (like they have to) this also brings out a little bit of resentment. And if some of you feel your countries are as great and maybe even more so then the US remember where you got most of your ideas from in the first place. It would also serve you to remember you and your country have a long way to go before you start assuming to tell me what I should be satisfied with.

[bolding mine]
So, your real problem is that non-Americans believe the investigations into 9-11, conducted by a country they want to prove is less than competent, were done competently?

Who on the JREF board said they were "completely satisfied?"I'm still waiting for for the answer to these questions.

[PhantomWolf]

Hand up. Non American who was unemployed at the time, channel surfing before I was about to head out.

Didn't switch off the tv for about 13 hours.

I was playing an on line text based RPG when one of the other players came on channel and told everyone to turn on their TVs. I sort of laughed and pointed out I wasn't American and he said do it anyway. About that point I knew it was big, but didn't know what it was. I turned on the TV and switched to BBC World and there was Tower 1 burning. That was just after 1am NZ time, the second plane hit just minutes later. Interestingly the editor of the local paper was also awake, playing poker online and got the same sort of message. Our paper was the only morning paper in New Zealand to run images of the attacks. I still have a copy somewhere.

[Oxigen]

Let's see: You were not allowed to bring a liquid on a plane and all of a sudden because of it you become a truther.
Wow, that really says something about the motivations of people who become Truthers.
And please tell me how banning people from carrying liquids on board planes furthers some vast evil plot.
Do you know how spoiled and petty this makes you sound?

Funny when I look at your name, it reminds me of light bulb, which I had presumed to be bright.

[gtc]

That's true, it would have been around noon in Europe, but most of the West Coast was still asleep or just getting up when the planes hit.

I believe the story broke during the late night news in Australia. Most papers ran late editions the next day with the story.

[Oxigen]

[QUOTE=8den;3619580]Where you see paranoia and fear I see a minor inconvenience and alot of hyperbole.

I don't think people see it that way. Unless they are brain dead. It is quite obvious that people are beginning to distrust the media, with good reason,

[Par]

Let's see: You were not allowed to bring a liquid on a plane and all of a sudden because of it you become a truther. Wow, that really says something about the motivations of people who become Truthers.
And please tell me how banning people from carrying liquids on board planes furthers some vast evil plot. Do you know how spoiled and petty this makes you sound?Funny when I look at your name, it reminds me of light bulb, which I had presumed to be bright.


Would you answer the question? I’d like to know as well.

[stateofgrace]

I don't think people see it that way. Unless they are brain dead. It is quite obvious that people are beginning to distrust the media, with good reason,

Incorrect, that is exactly how people who actually fly frequently see it. It is a simply a minor inconvenience, not some scam to frighten the travelling public. You are simply trying to lay your paranoid spin on something that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to with the Sept 11th attacks.

I fly frequently in my job, what you are suggesting is not only preposterous but completely groundless. The fact that you feel paranoid, the fact that you feel it is all one big scam to scare everybody, is your problem, not mine.

[Oxigen]

Oh Boy,you Guys Are Good At Twisting Statements.
Adious

[8den]

I don't think people see it that way. Unless they are brain dead. It is quite obvious that people are beginning to distrust the media, with good reason,

What are these reasons?

And if it's obvious you'll have evidence.

Like say sharp drop in viewing figures for 24hr news, or a sudden fall off in newspaper circulation? I don't pay a quid every morning for the paper if I didn't believe it held the highest journalist principles.

[8den]

Oh Boy,you Guys Are Good At Twisting Statements.
Adious

You mean "adios" right?

Don't want to confuse or twist your statement.

[stateofgrace]

Oh Boy,you Guys Are Good At Twisting Statements.
Adious

What statement did I twist ?

This one?


When liquid was not allowed onto airplanes around August, 2006 I must admit my immediate thought was THIS IS A SCAM and an effort to frighten travellers with terrorism.


Did you not post this ?

[Par]

You mean "adios" right? Don't want to confuse or twist your statement.


Perhaps he meant "adieu". Who knows.

[Oxigen]

yes I DID.

[8den]

yes I DID.

Well thats good! Thats progress.

Now you can point out the other posts users on this forum have "twisted" and you can clarify what you were trying to say.

[LastChild]

So, your real problem is that non-Americans believe the investigations into 9-11, conducted by a country they want to prove is less than competent, were done competently?

Who on the JREF board said they were "completely satisfied

I'm still waiting for for the answer to these questions.

No. I suggested that because of the resentment some might feel towards the US and its power some might want to believe that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. They want to believe a weakness was exposed. It makes them not feel so bad about being a weakling them self. Which is what America makes some people feel like. Weak and insignificant.

[gtc]

Do you have anyone in mind that thinks this way?

[LastChild]

Do you have anyone in mind that thinks this way?

Anyone who resented America before 9/11 and thought it was about time we took a smack to the mouth. Someone like that would never want to believe America had something to do with letting or making 9/11 happen.

It would be like rooting for the underdog in a championship fight and watching him score a knockdown against the heavily favorite champion only to find out later the champ took a dive. What they thought was a fantasy come true is still just an impossible pipe dream.

[Slayhamlet]

My point is that this is a direct result of 9/11. I am not in any way trying to diminish nearly 4000 deaths, which I find absolutely horrific. Where we differ is that I am not as certain as you that 19 Arab hijackers caused it. When liquid was not allowed onto airplanes around August, 2006 I must admit my immediate thought was THIS IS A SCAM and an effort to frighten travellers with terrorism. It was in September 2006 that I first became aware of any problems with the official story although I had wondered about some stories I had heard. So my reaction to the banning of liquids was one of skeptism. 9/11 has effected most countries around the globe (which I am sure it was designed to do).

Your opinions are as odious as they are idiotic. What a petty, despicable mentality you exhibit.

[stateofgrace]

Anyone who resented America before 9/11 and thought it was about time we took a smack to the mouth. Someone like that would never want to believe America had something to do with letting or making 9/11 happen.


You mean these guys?


There is America, hit by God in one of its softest spots. Its greatest buildings were destroyed, thank God for that


When God blessed one of the groups of Islam, vanguards of Islam, they destroyed America.


I would like to touch on one important point in this address. The actions by these young men who destroyed the United States and launched the storm of planes against it have done a good deed.


Amid the huge developments and in the wake of the great strikes that hit the United States in its most important locations in New York and Washington, a huge media clamour has been raised. This clamour is unprecedented. It conveyed the opinions of people on these events. People were divided into two parts. The first part supported these strikes against US tyranny, while the second denounced them.


Those who distinguish between America and Israel are the real enemies of the nation. They are traitors who betrayed God and His prophet,


God has blessed a group of vanguard Muslims, the forefront of Islam, to destroy America


The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it
http://www.doublestandards.org/alqa.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/binladen_10-7.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html

Ever thought about asking them LC?

[LashL]

Anyone who resented America before 9/11 and thought it was about time we took a smack to the mouth. Someone like that would never want to believe America had something to do with letting or making 9/11 happen.


I disagree. It seems to me that those who harbour hatred of the U.S. (aside from supporters of the terrorists who actually committed the acts on 9/11) would much more gleefully believe that the U.S. and/or its current administration are evil, horrible, criminal, cold-blooded murderers who deliberately planned and executed the death of 3,000 innocents than believe that the U.S. was merely caught with its pants down.

As for those who support and supported the terrorists who committed the acts, though, sure, I can see how they would not want the "credit" for the murders to be taken away from the terrorists. But you won't find any such people among the debunkers here.

[gumboot]

9/11 CTs are most popular in the Middle East, which incidentally happens to be where Anti-Americanism is also most popular. Coincidence?

[LastChild]

You mean these guys?







http://www.doublestandards.org/alqa.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/binladen_10-7.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terrorism/international/fatwa_1998.html

Ever thought about asking them LC?

I'm sure some of those people would like to believe their life’s dream came true. What's your point?

How pathetic would it be to have to admit after failing miserably in 93 the only way they could be successful is if America let them?

[LastChild]

9/11 CTs are most popular in the Middle East, which incidentally happens to be where Anti-Americanism is also most popular. Coincidence?


Most popular but not exclusive and maybe these days but not always...

Anti-Americanism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism

[stateofgrace]

I'm sure some of those people would like to believe their life’s dream came true. What's your point?

Whats your?

How pathetic would it be to have to admit after failing miserably in 93 the only way they could be successful is if America let them?


What is more pathetic is a fool who defends the terrorists who have repeatedly admitted doing this and prefers to accuse their own countrymen of mass murder. Now that is truly pathetic.

[LastChild]

I disagree. It seems to me that those who harbour hatred of the U.S. (aside from supporters of the terrorists who actually committed the acts on 9/11) would much more gleefully believe that the U.S. and/or its current administration are evil, horrible, criminal, cold-blooded murderers who deliberately planned and executed the death of 3,000 innocents than believe that the U.S. was merely caught with its pants down.

As for those who support and supported the terrorists who committed the acts, though, sure, I can see how they would not want the "credit" for the murders to be taken away from the terrorists. But you won't find any such people among the debunkers here.

Those are two different things. There is hatred in wanting to see something die and then there is resentment for whatever reason. It could be jealousy it could be valid resentment towards American policy or culture. Some might claim we had it coming on 9/11 and it came by way of blow back. If they think we deserved it even a little they wouldn't want to find out we let it happen or made it happen on purpose thus confirming how much we do control.

Remember some people claim we're an empire now and we create our own reality because... well we can.

[LastChild]

Whats your?


What is more pathetic is a fool who defends the terrorists who have repeatedly admitted doing this and prefers to accuse their own countrymen of mass murder. Now that is truly pathetic.

Who is defending them?

[stateofgrace]

Who is defending them?

Who is them ?

[LastChild]

Who is them ?

Who is defending terrorists?

[stateofgrace]

Who is defending terrorists?

Read what I wrote, child.

What is more pathetic is a fool who defends the terrorists who have repeatedly admitted doing this and prefers to accuse their own countrymen of mass murder. Now that is truly pathetic.

Of course that fool wouldn't be you would it?

[LashL]

Those are two different things. There is hatred in wanting to see something die and then there is resentment for whatever reason. It could be jealousy it could be valid resentment towards American policy or culture. Some might claim we had it coming on 9/11 and it came by way of blow back. If they think we deserved it even a little they wouldn't want to find out we let it happen or made it happen on purpose thus confirming how much we do control.


My point - which was clear, cogent, and well-articulated - seems to have gone right over your head, either intentionally or otherwise.

Colour me unsurprised. :rolleyes:


ETA: And to get back to the OP, I am Canadian and I neither hate nor resent the U.S. On the contrary, I quite like the U.S.; I have traveled the U.S. quite a lot; and I have many, many U.S. friends and colleagues. Yet, here I am, disputing the nonsensical claims of the so-called "truth" movement when they claim that your government orchestrated the events of 9/11, and here you are claiming that I ought not to have anything to say about the events of 9/11, despite the fact that those events did not occur in a vacuum, despite the fact that those events were international in nature, and despite the fact that 24 of my fellow Canadians died as a result.

Are you ready to rethink your OP (and other unsupported subsequent posts) yet?

[johnny karate]

It's the psychology behind Lastchild's mental gymnastics in this thread that draw me to conspiracy theories in the first place. I find it fascinating how far some people will go to confirm their predetermined beliefs, and what we're seeing LastChild do here is a prime example of just that.

LastChild is at least able to recognize a glaring flaw in his ideology: How does something that is both so heinous and so obvious (i.e. 9/11 as an inside job), for the most part go unacknowledged by the world at large? The typical answer we get from CTers implying the iron-grip the U.S. government has over the dissemination of information is rendered moot in the face of a foreign media, including that of countries unfriendly to America, that has willfully ignored this story as much as domestic media. And LastChild seems to realize this.

So he concocts a theory explaining why these countries that dislike the U.S. don't blow the lid of this conspiracy.

And his answer?

It's because they don't like the U.S.

Twooferism at its finest.

[CptColumbo]

No. I suggested that because of the resentment some might feel towards the US and its power some might want to believe that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. They want to believe a weakness was exposed. It makes them not feel so bad about being a weakling them self. Which is what America makes some people feel like. Weak and insignificant.What you wrote was:
The fact that people from other countries are completely satisfied with the half ass investigative attempts so far doesn't really surprise me in the least. Which suggests that you feel that the investigation done by the US government was not done well ("halfass"), and that anyone from another country who thinks that it was conducted well believes this due to a resentment towards the USA. Which is more insulting to America? That they were attacked by fanatical people who took advantage of the freedoms and lacks security of the country and after the largest investigation in the US they now know (as much as can be expected without time travel technology) how it happened and how to prevent it from happening again, or that the US government murdered 3000 civilians (most of whom were it's own citizens) and those not in on the conspiracy conducted an incompetent investigation.

Basically, what I'm discovering from your posts is that you believe that anyone who doesn't agree with you does so because of numerous reasons, except that you are wrong.

[LastChild]

My point - which was clear, cogent, and well-articulated - seems to have gone right over your head, either intentionally or otherwise.

Colour me unsurprised. :rolleyes:


ETA: And to get back to the OP, I am Canadian and I neither hate nor resent the U.S. On the contrary, I quite like the U.S.; I have traveled the U.S. quite a lot; and I have many, many U.S. friends and colleagues. Yet, here I am, disputing the nonsensical claims of the so-called "truth" movement when they claim that your government orchestrated the events of 9/11, and here you are claiming that I ought not to have anything to say about the events of 9/11, despite the fact that those events did not occur in a vacuum, despite the fact that those events were international in nature, and despite the fact that 24 of my fellow Canadians died as a result.

Are you ready to rethink your OP yet?

Why would I rethink it just because you don't think it applies to you or anyone you've met? Who are you?

[LastChild]

Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here?

[CptColumbo]

Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here?How many is too many? Does it matter where someone is from, if their right?

[gtc]

Should Americans be allowed to have an opinion about non-American peoples' opinions about Americans? No American could ever know what it was like to be a non-American having an opinion about an American but so many Americans do.

Is it a superiority complex? Are American truthers so nationalistic and mindlessly patriotic that they think that only the American government is so supremely powerful, so supremely evil to be the only government capable of faking 4 airline crashes in one morning and then topping it all off with, for the first time in history, 3 silent controlled demolitions leaving behind no-trace evidence?

etc, etc, etc.

[CptColumbo]

Should Americans be allowed to have an opinion about non-American peoples' opinions about Americans? No American could ever know what it was like to be a non-American having an opinion about an American but so many Americans do.

Is it a superiority complex? Are American truthers so nationalistic and mindlessly patriotic that they think that only the American government is so supremely powerful, so supremely evil to be the only government capable of faking 4 airline crashes in one morning and then topping it all off with, for the first time in history, 3 silent controlled demolitions leaving behind no-trace evidence?

etc, etc, etc.
As I've mentioned before, some of the motivation of "twoofers" is jealousy of the actual heroes of 9/11. They want to be given the same recognition.

[LastChild]

Should Americans be allowed to have an opinion about non-American peoples' opinions about Americans? No American could ever know what it was like to be a non-American having an opinion about an American but so many Americans do.

Is it a superiority complex? Are American truthers so nationalistic and mindlessly patriotic that they think that only the American government is so supremely powerful, so supremely evil to be the only government capable of faking 4 airline crashes in one morning and then topping it all off with, for the first time in history, 3 silent controlled demolitions leaving behind no-trace evidence?

etc, etc, etc.

Well maybe. If anyone is going to have a superiority complex it's Americans. I'm just not sure it's a complex.

[Dr Adequate]

Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here? Have you not read this thread?

If not, I suggest that you read it. You may remember that you began it by asking this very question. If you read this thread, you will find answers to your question. (You remember answers? The things you used to give to questions before you discovered Da Twoof?)

This fact is so simple that I'm mildly surprised that even you have not yet grasped it.

[Kage]

Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here?

Why does this matter to you? What is your point? They have a different looking passport and don't believe you. How is one at all related to the other?

[LashL]

Why would I rethink it just because you don't think it applies to you or anyone you've met? Who are you?

Once again, the point goes sailing over your head without ever bumping into any rational, critical, or even semi-intelligent or semi-coherent thought on your part.

Can anyone make it any simpler for you? You should rethink it because it is nonsensical, misguided, and demonstrably wrong, not because it has anything to do with me, personally. I merely gave you an example of why and how you are wrong by way of reference to a real life example. Is this really so difficult for you to comprehend?

Yet again, you failed spectacularly to comprehend that which should be glaringly apparent to anyone who is not merely trolling and playing silly buggers for kicks.

Oh... there it is...

[LashL]

Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here?

For all of the reasons set out previously in this thread, and because 9/11 did not occur in a vacuum, and because the actions of the U.S. and the actions of other countries do not occur in a vacuum, and because citizens of some 80 countries died that day as a result of the terrorist attacks.

And because even non-Americans are sometimes embarrassed on behalf of your country for people like you who purport to represent your fellow Americans while spewing nothing but nonsense. Look at it as similar to the "mercy rule" but on a global level.

[Dr Adequate]

For all of the reasons set out previously in this thread, and because 9/11 did not occur in a vacuum, and because the actions of the U.S. and the actions of other countries do not occur in a vacuum, and because citizens of some 80 countries died that day as a result of the terrorist attacks.

And because even non-Americans are sometimes embarrassed on behalf of your country for people like you who purport to represent your fellow Americans while spewing nothing but nonsense. Look at it as similar to the "mercy rule" but on a global level. Good summary. And of course LastChild has been provided with these reasons throughout this thread.

So what I want to know is: is he so stupid that he doesn't realize that his question has been answered, or is he so stupid that he doesn't realize that if he pretends that his question hasn't been answered, everyone reading this thread will know that he's lying?

This is always the question with LastChild: is it cognitive inadequacy or social inadequacy?

[PhantomWolf]

I think most of the reason I deal with it is because I don't like to see people stomp on the victims and at the sane time ignore what is likely the biggest danger to western civilisation ever. On 11/9/2001 one NZer was killed along with 3 Australians. On 12/10/2002 three NZers and 88 Australians were amongst the 202 dead in Bali. Shelley Mather, a 26 year old New Zealander and Sam Ly, a 28 year old Australian were both killed in London on 7/7/2005. Our people are dying next to yours in this new war, maybe not in the same numbers, but still they are dying. Our troops are fighting next to yours in Afghanistan, they are getting shot at and blown up by the same people responsible for 9/11, 7/7 and Bali. When idoits claim that this is all being done by the Jews, or the US Govt, or the NWO, that irks me, you devalue the victims, you devalue my countrymen and women who died by the hands of scum who want to force their version of religion on the world. If I have to fight the idiots and morons that spout the rubbish, lies, and untruths of the "Truth" Movement who try and make a buck of the deaths of my countrymen and women and those of my neighbours, then I will, and if it wakes up a few people to the threat that looms on the horizon, all the better.

[gumboot]

I think most of the reason I deal with it is because I don't like to see people stomp on the victims and at the sane time ignore what is likely the biggest danger to western civilisation ever. On 11/9/2001 one NZer was killed along with 3 Australians. On 12/10/2002 three NZers and 88 Australians were amongst the 202 dead in Bali. Shelley Mather, a 26 year old New Zealander and Sam Ly, a 28 year old Australian were both killed in London on 7/7/2005. Our people are dying next to yours in this new war, maybe not in the same numbers, but still they are dying. Our troops are fighting next to yours in Afghanistan, they are getting shot at and blown up by the same people responsible for 9/11, 7/7 and Bali. When idoits claim that this is all being done by the Jews, or the US Govt, or the NWO, that irks me, you devalue the victims, you devalue my countrymen and women who died by the hands of scum who want to force their version of religion on the world. If I have to fight the idiots and morons that spout the rubbish, lies, and untruths of the "Truth" Movement who try and make a buck of the deaths of my countrymen and women and those of my neighbours, then I will, and if it wakes up a few people to the threat that looms on the horizon, all the better.


Quite. An important thing to remember is that this threat is not one of invasion by forces of soldiers, warships, tanks, and bombers. It is an invasion of ideas, the erosion of values, and social revolution from within. Nurturing critical thinking skills and value in science is vital if we're to survive.

[gtc]

Quite.

Thirded by this Australian.

[lee5]

Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here?

I already gave you an honest answer and you didn't respond so I am assuming you don't really want to talk about it and are just here to stir up poo. Oh, I mean, woo.

Honestly though, look back a few pages.

Edit... here...

My guess:

1. Since there is not an emotional involvement (other than the human one), they are usually able to look at the situation in a rational, mature manner.

2. It has been my experience that Europeans and some other countries are usually better educated than us American folk.

3. Some may have a slight hint of "we are better than you" attitude on the subject.

4. Some like to talk about something that they don't really know nothing about.

5. Some are genuinely concerned on the matter.

6. Some are interested in history and historic events.

7. It is a historic attack that is interesting to humans, no matter your origin.

8. Bordom

9. The truth movement is annoying to all, not just Americans and some are determined to stop rubbish.

I believe that there is probably a big list of reasons why people do what they do....
Whats your point?

What are your list of reasons LC?

[Corsair 115]

Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here?Counter-question: why do so many Americans weigh in on 9/11 here?

My counter-question has as much validity as your question does.

[Wildy]

No. I suggested that because of the resentment some might feel towards the US and its power some might want to believe that 9/11 was nothing more then the US getting caught with its pants down. They want to believe a weakness was exposed. It makes them not feel so bad about being a weakling them self. Which is what America makes some people feel like. Weak and insignificant.

Well maybe. If anyone is going to have a superiority complex it's Americans. I'm just not sure it's a complex.

I've selected these two quotes because it shows something about you.

As far as I can tell the stereotype of the "patriotic American" fits you quite well. You think that the US is superior to everyone else here and I also get the sense that you think that the US can protect their citizens from anything, in a Hollywood-like situation.

You only subscribe to the 9/11 CT because you can't stand to think that foreigners from a country far away, could ever launch an attack on the "mighty, all powerful" US, so you choose the only option that lets you stay in your Hollywood world of a US that is perfect, and can never be defeated by anyone. You decided that the US Government had to have done it, because your superiority complex is utterly destroyed if you believe the latter.

At least Linus' security blanket was a physical object.

[gc051360]

Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here?

Why do so many non-Iraqis weigh in about the Iraq war? Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about America's role in the Iraq war? Why do people talk about significant world events?

It's not really that hard of a question to answer. Do you have a point?

You seem to be trying to make the point that non-Americans don't buy 9-11 truth propaganda, because they think that the real story makes America look foolish.

Your assertion fails on so many levels.

The first being, that 9-11 happening, does not really make America look foolish.

The second being that, a giant conspiracy and/or a complete joke of an investigation into a huge terrorist attack, are both more embarrassing than terrorists hi-jacking planes, and ramming them into stuff.

The third being, that Americans don't buy into these conspiracy theories either. There really isn't much of a difference between Americans, and citizens of other countries on this issue.

[fromdownunder]

Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here?

Have you even read the thread that you started?

Do you think that only Americans were killed in the 9/11 attacks?
Do you think that nobody else cared, or had friends (even on-line ones) that we genuinely felt for?
Do you think that no other countries have been affected by the aftermath?

Why did I care about the Bali bombings as well? After all, they occured in Indonesia. But they killed many hundreds of people from many nations, including Americans. Do you even know or care about this? If not, why not? After all, it happened in Indonesia, and would not have affected you. Do you even care that Americans were murdered in the Bali bombings?

Norm

[Dave_46]

Why do so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11 here?


The "location" shown under Dr A's name sums it up.

Fighting Inadequacy Everywhere!


In this case the inadequacy of conspiracy fantacists.

[LastChild]

For all of the reasons set out previously in this thread, and because 9/11 did not occur in a vacuum, and because the actions of the U.S. and the actions of other countries do not occur in a vacuum, and because citizens of some 80 countries died that day as a result of the terrorist attacks.

And because even non-Americans are sometimes embarrassed on behalf of your country for people like you who purport to represent your fellow Americans while spewing nothing but nonsense. Look at it as similar to the "mercy rule" but on a global level.

It was America that was attacked on 9/11. The attackers didn't care that day who else was in the buildings or on the planes except for the Americans.

[chillzero]

It was America that was attacked on 9/11. The attackers didn't care that day who else was in the buildings or on the planes except for the Americans.

So, because the terrorists didn't care, none of the countries who lost people should care?

[moon1969]

Because twoofers don"t know who Gulbuddin Hekmatyar is. They keep claiming that CIA supported Osama in Soviet Afghan war but they are wrong. CIA and ISI supported Gulbuddin Hekmatyar not Osama Bin Laden.

[LastChild]

So, because the terrorists didn't care, none of the countries who lost people should care?

No. Just because it wasn't just Americans killed in the 9/11 attacks doesn't mean some people didn't take pleasure in seeing America caught with its pants down. They don't want to let go of that thought that America might not be as great as some people say.

[chillzero]

No. Just because it wasn't just Americans killed in the 9/11 attacks doesn't mean some people didn't take pleasure in seeing America caught with its pants down. They don't want to let go of that thought that America might not be as great as some people say.

Which is completely the opposite of what your question was asking. You asked why so many non-Americans weigh in about 9/11. The answer is because non-Americans care, and part of that is because non-Americans died.

[Rolfe]

Heck, why not...

As far as I can tell I think my country is vastly better than the United States, and wouldn't move to the USA if you paid me...


Just reading through this thread, and came upon this.

Yeah. Me too.

Rolfe.

[Dave Rogers]

As far as I can tell I think my country is vastly better than the United States, and wouldn't move to the USA if you paid me...

I'd just like to make it known to anyone who's monitoring this forum that, though it's high, I have my price, should the USA be interested in securing my residence.

Dave

[sts60]

As far as I can tell the stereotype of the "patriotic American" fits you quite well. You think that the US is superior to everyone else here and I also get the sense that you think that the US can protect their citizens from anything, in a Hollywood-like situation.

You only subscribe to the 9/11 CT because you can't stand to think that foreigners from a country far away, could ever launch an attack on the "mighty, all powerful" US, so you choose the only option that lets you stay in your Hollywood world of a US that is perfect, and can never be defeated by anyone. You decided that the US Government had to have done it, because your superiority complex is utterly destroyed if you believe the latter.

At least Linus' security blanket was a physical object.
I consider myself to be a patriotic American, and in fact I love my country (for all its flaws) and consider it to be in many ways the greatest country on Earth. I also believe, as Carl Sagan put it, that real patriots ask questions. But it's critically important to look carefully and honestly for the real answers - something conspiracists seem unable to do, even while those from this country noisily wrap themselves in the trappings of patriotism. I would like to extend my apologies to the international members of this community for their displays of arrogance and ignorance.

Anyway, I will go ahead and take a stab at the OT. I think it's a combination of very simple factors:
- as many have mentioned, the 9/11/2001 attacks killed many non-Americans, and
- many more have been affected by events stemming from the attacks;
- the skeptical community is an international one, so this board naturally has many international members, who will naturally participate in such discussions;
- not surprisingly, it seems the majority of international participants are from Canada, Britain, and Australia and New Zealand; English-speaking countries which share a common heritage.
The last two items, I think, are the real drivers for the mix of nationalities seen here.

I've noticed the same distribution in forums dedicated to discussing the Apollo "hoax" claims. Come to think of it, I've also noticed that Americans who believe that the government faked the Moon landings have a strong tendency to believe it staged the 9/11/2001 attacks. It seems to me that believing such drivel shows great contempt for one's country - indulging juvenile fantasies rather than doing a little bit thinking about our real problems and their possible solutions.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

My point - which was clear, cogent, and well-articulated - seems to have gone right over your head, either intentionally or otherwise.

Colour me unsurprised. :rolleyes:


ETA: And to get back to the OP, I am Canadian and I neither hate nor resent the U.S. On the contrary, I quite like the U.S.; I have traveled the U.S. quite a lot; and I have many, many U.S. friends and colleagues. Yet, here I am, disputing the nonsensical claims of the so-called "truth" movement when they claim that your government orchestrated the events of 9/11, and here you are claiming that I ought not to have anything to say about the events of 9/11, despite the fact that those events did not occur in a vacuum, despite the fact that those events were international in nature, and despite the fact that 24 of my fellow Canadians died as a result.

Are you ready to rethink your OP (and other unsupported subsequent posts) yet?

At the time of the attacks every single aitcraft in the air enroute to the USA was either turned back or diverted to Canada. More than 200 flights landed in Canada with the full permission of the Canadian Government. No one knew if there were not more hijackers on these flights as they landed in our country. If there had been, Canadian citzens could have been killed and property destroyed. Of course we have an interest in "what really happened".

As far as what Canadians thought at the time:
Prime Minister Jean Chrétien declared a National Day of Mourning for September 14 and more than 100,000 people gathered on Parliament Hill in Ottawa for a Memorial Service.

The Prime Minister's Memorial Address is here:
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/chretian9-14-01.htm

As an aside you may note that Chrétien does not mention God or the Almighty once.

And, if I remember correctly, no religious leader spoke.

[Architect]

If I recall many of us - notably the UK - turned out to help in Afghanistan and Iraq too.

[LastChild]

I don't need to point any further then this thread to prove my point valid when some people took this thread as an opportunity to bash America. It really didn't take much prodding from me did it? Go back and read.

[Naughtyhippo]

I'm really confused...... isn't the truth movement bashing America?

Isn't a government that would MIHOP (plus all the co-conspirators) a more terrible thing than being the victim of a radical terrorist organization?

An organization that has either directly or indirectly been responsible for attacks in the UK - will the truth movement say that their governement planned and executed these attacks too? In which case I'd definately want to weigh in on the 9/11 movement!

[Dr Adequate]

I don't need to point any further then this thread to prove my point valid when some people took this thread as an opportunity to bash America. It really didn't take much prodding from me did it? Go back and read. It proves my point perfectly.

Americans and non-Americans think that you're talking crap.

Patriotic Americans and the "bashers" of America think that you're talking crap.

Liberals and conservatives think that you're talking crap.

Pro-war and anti-war people think that you're talking crap.

To take a case study, pomeroo is an American pro-war Bush loyalist conservative who thinks America is all that, whereas I am a British liberal who opposed the Iraq war from the start, who despises Bush and who finds many aspects of America inferior to Britain. Yet we both think that you're talking crap.

So leave off this ridiculous whining about how people only think you're talking crap because they're conservative or non-American or anti-American or Bush loyalists, and face the facts.

The reason that people of all nations, with all political opinions, with all views on Bush, with all views on the war, think that you're talking crap is that you are, in fact, talking crap.

[DavidJames]

Ladies and gentlemen who are replying to LC, two questions....

Do you think LC tries to understand your arguments?
Do you think LC can be persuaded to reconsider his position?

[Architect]

We're just keepin' him talkin' while the bouncers zero in.......

[Dave Rogers]

Ladies and gentlemen who are replying to LC, two questions....

Do you think LC tries to understand your arguments?
Do you think LC can be persuaded to reconsider his position?

No, and no, which are two reasons why I rarely contribute to his/her threads. However, there is also a third question:

Do you think there are readers who, if LC's posts are left unchallenged, will believe they have merit?

So the main reason I rarely contribute to LC's threads is that I think the answer to the third question is also "No".

Dave

[Horatius]

You seem to be trying to make the point that non-Americans don't buy 9-11 truth propaganda, because they think that the real story makes America look foolish.

Your assertion fails on so many levels.

The first being, that 9-11 happening, does not really make America look foolish.





And while we're at it, if the only reason we non-Americans are aguing against the 9/11 CTs is that we want to make the US look foolish, then why do we also argue against the CTs that have sprung up about the Bali bombings, or the 7/7 attacks in the UK, or the train bombings in Spain? There are CTs for all those attacks, being spread by the same gang of idiots who are pushing the 9/11 CTs, and yet, we argue against those too.

Is Lost Child going to claim that we all hate and envy all these other countries too?

[Confuseling]

...
This is always the question with LastChild: is it cognitive inadequacy or social inadequacy?

Excluded middle?

I think most of the reason I deal with it is because I don't like to see people stomp on the victims and at the sane time ignore what is likely the biggest danger to western civilisation ever. On 11/9/2001 one NZer was killed along with 3 Australians. On 12/10/2002 three NZers and 88 Australians were amongst the 202 dead in Bali. Shelley Mather, a 26 year old New Zealander and Sam Ly, a 28 year old Australian were both killed in London on 7/7/2005. Our people are dying next to yours in this new war, maybe not in the same numbers, but still they are dying. Our troops are fighting next to yours in Afghanistan, they are getting shot at and blown up by the same people responsible for 9/11, 7/7 and Bali. When idoits claim that this is all being done by the Jews, or the US Govt, or the NWO, that irks me, you devalue the victims, you devalue my countrymen and women who died by the hands of scum who want to force their version of religion on the world. If I have to fight the idiots and morons that spout the rubbish, lies, and untruths of the "Truth" Movement who try and make a buck of the deaths of my countrymen and women and those of my neighbours, then I will, and if it wakes up a few people to the threat that looms on the horizon, all the better.

Good post, but I have to fundamentally disagree with your assessment of the scale of the threat. I think climate change is the greatest risk facing humanity, never mind our civilisation, and I think international solutions are the only possible ones. I guess that's partly why 911 is particularly interesting to a lot of Europeans; we're aware that there is a strong isolationist current in US politics, and we're seeing it overcome, but concerned about what may replace it. With isolationism no longer a realistic option, we can see you going one way or the other - more belligerent and unilateralist, or more cooperative and interested in international institutions and equitable foreign policy. We have a strong vested interest in the latter.

This has nothing to do with America or Americans specifically, you just happen to be at the nexus of a large empire. That's why they picked you, and why we're interested. Give it thirty years, and it may well have been China.

[1337m4n]

LastChild:

How do you feel about the dozens of 9/11 Truth organizations that exist in other countries?

How do you feel about the fact that the first 9/11 conspiracy theories started in France?

I would like answers to these questions.

[Dr Adequate]

And while we're at it, if the only reason we non-Americans are aguing against the 9/11 CTs is that we want to make the US look foolish, then why do we also argue against the CTs that have sprung up about the Bali bombings, or the 7/7 attacks in the UK, or the train bombings in Spain? There are CTs for all those attacks, being spread by the same gang of idiots who are pushing the 9/11 CTs, and yet, we argue against those too.

Is Lost Child going to claim that we all hate and envy all these other countries too? Good point. LastChild, if you claim that I argue against 9/11 nonsense because I'm British and HATE AMERICA!!! --- then why do also I argue against 7/7 fantasies?

[Oxigen]

Incorrect, that is exactly how people who actually fly frequently see it. It is a simply a minor inconvenience, not some scam to frighten the travelling public. You are simply trying to lay your paranoid spin on something that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to with the Sept 11th attacks.

I fly frequently in my job, what you are suggesting is not only preposterous but completely groundless. The fact that you feel paranoid, the fact that you feel it is all one big scam to scare everybody, is your problem, not mine.

whatever.

[Bobert]

whatever.

Time to take a break and leave the basement and grab another Twinkie.

[Dr Adequate]

whatever. Well, I was about to write the Truth Movement off as a buch of vacuous empty-headed jerks. But then your eloquent and detailed post changed my mind.

[Drudgewire]

whatever.

Good answer. "Ur mom" would also have been acceptable.

[Rolfe]

Last Child has achieved the vitually impossible, as I find myself in hearty and perfect agreement with both Drudgewire and Quad456 (sorry, can't remember the actual numbers).

He should really be recommended for some sort of international peace award.

Rolfe.

[CHF]

I must say, this thread has been a wonderful summary of the global situation regarding 9/11 "truth."

Regardless of one's race, nationality, political leaning, stance on Iraq, opinion of Bush...the overwhelming bulk of humanity can agree on the obvious: that 9/11 twoofers are complete morons.

It takes a special kind of skill to unite people in such a way. Good job, LostChild.

[Par]

And while we're at it, if the only reason we non-Americans are aguing against the 9/11 CTs is that we want to make the US look foolish, then why do we also argue against the CTs that have sprung up about the Bali bombings, or the 7/7 attacks in the UK, or the train bombings in Spain?...Good point. LastChild, if you claim that I argue against 9/11 nonsense because I'm British and HATE AMERICA!!! --- then why do also I argue against 7/7 fantasies?


Los atentados en los trenes de Madrid: una conspiración ¡Viva España!

[PhantomWolf]

Good post, but I have to fundamentally disagree with your assessment of the scale of the threat. I think climate change is the greatest risk facing humanity, never mind our civilisation, and I think international solutions are the only possible ones.

Note that I didn't say Humanity. Western Civilisation can survive Global Warming, that isn't going to take away our democracy or rights to free speak, choice of religion and many, many other things. Extremeist Islam is a direct threat to those things that make our civilisation what it is. Western Civilisation and the Islamists form of Islam are direct compeditors, only one can survive with the other having to be destroyed to allow any possiblity of peace to occur. Global Warming simply isn't that sort of threat to our way of life, it merely means we have to think about how we change the methods of luxary we ejoy with that way of life.