How do you know that everyone has irrational beliefs?

[Steven Howard]

"Everyone has some irrational beliefs." This is a truism that occurs frequently, often in discussions about the compatibility of skepticism and religious belief. Even in those often heated exchanges, it often goes by unquestioned, tacitly or even explicitly accepted by all participants. But I think skepticism requires us to think critically about statements like this. Does everyone have irrational beliefs?

It's possible that people are using "everyone" in the same sense that we use it when we rationalize small transgressions like taking office supplies from work for our own personal use: "Everyone does it." We don't literally mean that the behavior is universal, just that it's fairly widespread and socially acceptable. But that seems a pretty pointless observation to make about irrational beliefs -- we already know that irrational beliefs are widespread and socially acceptable.

So for anybody who's ever said or written that everyone has irrational beliefs, or even just nodded their head sagely when someone else said it, I have to ask: How do you know?

[I Ratant]

Everyone doesn't have irrational beliefs.
I don'f, for instance.
Can't say about you though. :)
If one equates "different/repugnant" with irrational, then there are many such, but most folks nowadays have been exposed to educational systems which clear up many of the old time problems.
I recall being appalled when my mother told me there were only 4 elements, during a conversation where I'd mentioned there were over 100.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Me?

[Magyar]

because I haven't met Mr. Spock yet!? I think it's part of the human condition to have some level or irrational belief. Now skeptics are supposed to find these and over come them with logic, and the obvious ones are easy, but there are all kind of irrational beliefs and behaviors.

[articulett]

That is a good question. How do we know? I think it's used when people want to justify their own irrational beliefs... but there is no way to know that. Although this article does suggests that humans do have a built in tendency to do "magical thinking". Science and skepticism aim to help us get it right more often and be aware of where thinking can go wrong:

Psychology Today's article covers the length and breadth of magical thinking - the tendency to see patterns and causality where none exists.

Magical thinking is described in a number of ways. Superstition is the most common, where we assume rituals will somehow affect the future despite having no causal connection to what we want to change.

Apophenia or pareidolia describe the effect where we see meaningful information where none was intended. The Fortean Times has a wonderful collection of photographs that depict 'faces' or other forms in clouds, trees, rock formations or even food.

Superstition and apophenia are an interesting contrast, because superstition can be more easily rejected than apophenia. Our perceptual systems are just set up to detect patterns, and so the perception of 'faces' is unavoidable.

Often we don't even register our wacky beliefs. Seeing causality in coincidence can happen even before we have a chance to think about it; the misfiring is sometimes perceptual rather than rational. "Consider what happens when you honk your horn, and just at that moment a streetlight goes out," observes Brian Scholl, director of Yale's Perception and Cognition Laboratory. "You may never for a moment believe that your honk caused the light to go out, but you will irresistibly perceive that causal relation. The fact remains that our visual systems refuse to believe in coincidences." Our overeager eyes, in effect, lay the groundwork for more detailed superstitious ideation. And it turns out that no matter how rational people consider themselves, if they place a high value on hunches they are hard-pressed to hit a baby's photo on a dartboard. On some level they're equating image with reality. Even our aim falls prey to intuition.

The article looks at seven types of magical thinking, and discusses some of the key psychology experiments that have shown us how magical thinking is influenced.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=20080225-000003&page=1

Skepticism has a built in error correcting mechanism. Faith doesn't.

[shadron]

You might also want to investigate the effects of modern marketing techniques. It seems to be completely possible for marketeers to, in effect, implant drives and reasoning into people which result in irrationalities that people are not aware are there until they have to, for some reason, examine them deeply. And I rather think that even skeptics who have trained themselves to examine their "input" might be susceptible, if the marketing is sophisticated enough. Thankfully I find that stuff targeted to the "average Joe" seems to be easily enough examined and rejected, but I wouldn't therefore say that it was impossible for such to "fly under my radar", just not cost effective for the marketing. Unfortunately, like so many things, marketing is still largely an art, but the science in it is still maturing.

Skepticism has a built in error correcting mechanism. Faith doesn't.

Yes, if you're conscious of all the thoughts contained. If you are rigorous in their application, and you don't allow emotions to bypass the safeguards, such as sentimentality, love, anger or hatred. It can be made a habit, but conscious thought is required; there is not automatic bull filter.

I don't think anyone can answer these questions in absolute terms.

[slingblade]

This is why I try to be so careful with language. This is why I'm a big fan of the phrase "in general." I can't know there's a condition or frame of mind common to every single individual (aside from the life-sustaning ones like breathing and eating). No one can know that. But I think it reasonable to say that a thing is more likely to be universally true than not.

I also use my obervations, rather like a survey, to extrapolate a figure. I haven't yet met a person who didn't have at least one opinion based in nonsense, or which they hadn't thought out, or which was just tripe. I have met those who had far fewer such opinions than others have, but never one who was completely without irrational or illogical thought and fully, consistently rational.

Still, I'd be careful in how I phrased it, because I am aware this is something I cannot really know. But I think it's highly likely to be true. We are none of us perfect. That much, I feel confident in asserting.

[Steven Howard]

It probably gets down, like everything else around here these days, to semantics. The Psychology Today article that articulett linked to, for example, says things like this:

And it turns out that no matter how rational people consider themselves, if they place a high value on hunches they are hard-pressed to hit a baby's photo on a dartboard. On some level they're equating image with reality. Even our aim falls prey to intuition.


Aside from that complete trainwreck of a first sentence (Does the baby-dartboard thing not apply to people who consider themselves rational but don't place a high value on hunches? And if they do place a high value on hunches, how does their evaluation of their own rationality affect the results?), this isn't really about beliefs, or at least not the same kind of beliefs that we were usually talking about right before somebody says, "Everyone has irrational beliefs."

To my way of thinking (and this is correct), if you ask somebody a question that starts "Do you believe ..." and they honestly answer "No," then it would be a mistake to conclude that they're wrong about their own beliefs and that they really do believe it. The most you can do is point out that they seem to act as though they believe it. And even then, it would be best to consider what other reasons there might be for such behavior.

I mean, if I can get (non-porn example ... non-porn example ... okay, got it) hungry looking at a picture a cheeseburger, that doesn't mean I believe that there's a real cheeseburger in front of me that I can eat. It just means that I've associated the visual image of a cheeseburger with the act of eating one, which is hardly irrational given the number of cheeseburgers I've eaten in my life. (Which, in turn, is probably irrational -- but even though I might behave irrationally in eating food that I know is not particularly good for me, that irrational behavior isn't necessarily predicated on any irrational beliefs. Anyway, this isn't about me, and some of you could probably lay off the saturated fats as well, so never mind how many cheeseburgers I eat.)

[articulett]

Yes, if you're conscious of all the thoughts contained. If you are rigorous in their application, and you don't allow emotions to bypass the safeguards, such as sentimentality, love, anger or hatred. It can be made a habit, but conscious thought is required; there is not automatic bull filter.

I don't think anyone can answer these questions in absolute terms.

I agree with the former. What questions? What absolute terms? I just noted that skepticism and science are the best tools we have for recognizing these errors in thinking... faith hijacks these errors to create confirmation bias and wishful thinking. I'm not talking in absolutes. I'm saying that, it might well be true that all humans are prone to irrational thinking... but being aware of the ways we are prone to irrational thinking is the best means we have for noticing and correcting it. I thought the OP was a good question. People do assert that all people are irrational, and I hadn't realized that most people don't have a basis to make that claim.

But I agree that all people are prone to irrational thinking and they are blind to the ways that they are for the most part. At least my studies would suggest that... and Randi's demonstrations. People are much easier to fool than they think they are. Me too. But I'm getting better at recognizing my own irrationality as well as others on this forum.

There is a great book called Persuasion by Robert Levine -- and also Influence by Robert Cialdini that explores the various ways humans are irrational. Oh, and Irrationality by Donald Sutherland. Like Randi, I really want to be as clear thinking as possible.

[articulett]

It probably gets down, like everything else around here these days, to semantics. The Psychology Today article that articulett linked to, for example, says things like this:




Aside from that complete trainwreck of a first sentence (Does the baby-dartboard thing not apply to people who consider themselves rational but don't place a high value on hunches? And if they do place a high value on hunches, how does their evaluation of their own rationality affect the results?), this isn't really about beliefs, or at least not the same kind of beliefs that we were usually talking about right before somebody says, "Everyone has irrational beliefs."

To my way of thinking (and this is correct), if you ask somebody a question that starts "Do you believe ..." and they honestly answer "No," then it would be a mistake to conclude that they're wrong about their own beliefs and that they really do believe it. The most you can do is point out that they seem to act as though they believe it. And even then, it would be best to consider what other reasons there might be for such behavior.

I mean, if I can get (non-porn example ... non-porn example ... okay, got it) hungry looking at a picture a cheeseburger, that doesn't mean I believe that there's a real cheeseburger in front of me that I can eat. It just means that I've associated the visual image of a cheeseburger with the act of eating one, which is hardly irrational given the number of cheeseburgers I've eaten in my life. (Which, in turn, is probably irrational -- but even though I might behave irrationally in eating food that I know is not particularly good for me, that irrational behavior isn't necessarily predicated on any irrational beliefs. Anyway, this isn't about me, and some of you could probably lay off the saturated fats as well, so never mind how many cheeseburgers I eat.)

Right. I recognize my irrational reactions or emotional reactions. I feel aversion to the thought of a baby's picture on a dart board. But we already know that decisions are wired through our emotions as well as the logic center of our brains. When we don't have time to think, we bypass thinking and let our emotions decide. I can feel jealous even if I don't want to feel jealous or feel that jealousy is a useless emotion or irrational.

But I agree, there is no basis for the claim that "everyone is irrational". I think there may be basis for the claim that humans are prone to certain kinds of irrationality in general... and are often very blind to their own irrationalities... that is, they rationally explain why they believe or did or said something to themselves if asked.

I think feelings aren't really subject to strong control nor are they really "rational"... but actions can be... and choices and beliefs.

[Complexity]

I certainly have had many irrational beliefs, and I think it extremely likely that I have many more.

When I find one, I do my best to understand it and get rid of it.

I know of no way of being certain that one no longer has any irrational beliefs.

I find it Vanishingly unlikely that any human has ever, or ever will, get rid of all of his irrational beliefs.

[Ateius]

Everyone has some beliefs or opinions that are considered irrational by at least one other person somewhere else in the world.

For example, a strict Fundamentalist Christian would consider my "belief" in the scientific Theory of Evolution to be irrational, while I consider his rejection of it equally irrational.

So the old saying is true, in a way.

[Beerina]

I recall being appalled when my mother told me there were only 4 elements, during a conversation where I'd mentioned there were over 100.

It's interesting that what were the 4 elements, or essences, more closely map to what are the states of matter: solid, liquid, gas. And throw in fire as the 4th since it seems so magical and different. (And yes, I know they consider a true plasma as a 4th state, i.e. a bunch of atomic nucleii bouncing around, completely stripped of any electrons. While it couldn't burn itself, per se, it would wreak hellacious havoc with any normal matter it came in contact with.)

[drkitten]

"Everyone has some irrational beliefs." This is a truism that occurs frequently, often in discussions about the compatibility of skepticism and religious belief.

So for anybody who's ever said or written that everyone has irrational beliefs, or even just nodded their head sagely when someone else said it, I have to ask: How do you know?

Because every serious study of irrational beliefs usually comes to the conclusion that for some specific belief, some huge percentage of people hold that belief. (Wason's three card task, or the work of Kahneman and Tversky, are good examples). Multiply out the large percentage of people with any specific belief against the huge number of beliefs out there, and the chances of anyone not having any becomes a comfortable approximation to zero.

Rather like if I said that everyone was a heterozygote. The odds of both halves of your DNA being identical are so astronomically low, I'm willing to treat it as zero.

[Gevaudan]

No one can possibly know everything, therefore some of our beliefs about reality are bound to be irrational. The important part is realizing which of our beliefs is likely to be irrational and not making any important decisions based on them.

For example, when I was much younger I had an irrational fear of being put under anesthesia to have my impacted wisdom teeth extracted. There was no reason to think this (at the time I was a perfectly healthy 17 year old), but the sensation I was going to die felt as certain as the knowledge that a glowing hot stove would burn me if I touched it. However, I did not let this fear prevent me from being put under when I required surgery, because I knew the actual chances of it were quite small.

[Mobyseven]

"Everyone has some irrational beliefs." This is a truism that occurs frequently, often in discussions about the compatibility of skepticism and religious belief. Even in those often heated exchanges, it often goes by unquestioned, tacitly or even explicitly accepted by all participants. But I think skepticism requires us to think critically about statements like this. Does everyone have irrational beliefs?

It's possible that people are using "everyone" in the same sense that we use it when we rationalize small transgressions like taking office supplies from work for our own personal use: "Everyone does it." We don't literally mean that the behavior is universal, just that it's fairly widespread and socially acceptable. But that seems a pretty pointless observation to make about irrational beliefs -- we already know that irrational beliefs are widespread and socially acceptable.

So for anybody who's ever said or written that everyone has irrational beliefs, or even just nodded their head sagely when someone else said it, I have to ask: How do you know?

I, for one, don't. I agree that it is a 'truism' that seems to hang around though.

What I do accept is that it is possible for even the most rational person to unknowingly hold an irrational belief. I do not think that I, personally, hold any irrational beliefs - but I accept that it is still a possibility that I may, and I extend that possibility to other people as well.

[Silentknight]

I know I may hold irrational beliefs because I've had to correct myself in the past, thus it can happen again. I obviously don't know everything, there's a lot I still have to learn, I will never truly know all there is to know, and humans are fallible creatures. I'm willing to confess that I even have irrational beliefs at the present, although perhaps that's for a separate topic.

[Piscivore]

I'm a metaphysical solipsist.

[shadron]

What questions? What absolute terms? I just noted that skepticism and science are the best tools we have for recognizing these errors in thinking... faith hijacks these errors to create confirmation bias and wishful thinking. I'm not talking in absolutes. I'm saying that, it might well be true that all humans are prone to irrational thinking... but being aware of the ways we are prone to irrational thinking is the best means we have for noticing and correcting it. I thought the OP was a good question. People do assert that all people are irrational, and I hadn't realized that most people don't have a basis to make that claim.

I think I was referring to the questions posed in the OP: "How do you know everyone has irrational beliefs?" Sorry for the conflation.

[shadron]

I'm a metaphysical solipsist.

A Heinleinist?

[linusrichard]

I might argue that to value rationality so highly that you refuse to hold even one irrational belief is itself irrational. So, you can't win.

[ponderingturtle]

"Everyone has some irrational beliefs." This is a truism that occurs frequently, often in discussions about the compatibility of skepticism and religious belief. Even in those often heated exchanges, it often goes by unquestioned, tacitly or even explicitly accepted by all participants. But I think skepticism requires us to think critically about statements like this. Does everyone have irrational beliefs?

It's possible that people are using "everyone" in the same sense that we use it when we rationalize small transgressions like taking office supplies from work for our own personal use: "Everyone does it." We don't literally mean that the behavior is universal, just that it's fairly widespread and socially acceptable. But that seems a pretty pointless observation to make about irrational beliefs -- we already know that irrational beliefs are widespread and socially acceptable.

So for anybody who's ever said or written that everyone has irrational beliefs, or even just nodded their head sagely when someone else said it, I have to ask: How do you know?


You need to define irrational beliefs better.

Everyone has beliefs that are not supported by the evidence, because evidence does not determine value(it can shape such a judgment but can not make a judgment that X is better than Y). So if this is what you mean by irrational, then everyone has them period.

If you mean beliefs that are contradicted by the evidence that is a much more specific definition, also more limiting, as you need to look at claims made, and if no evidential claims are made it does not matter how strange or silly something is, it is not contradicted by evidence.

If you mean logical fallacies, well how many people work out the detailed logical chain of every thing that they decide? Also can things that are contradicted by evidence then fit if you don't make logical fallacies in their argument?

[Steven Howard]

Pretty much everybody has made good points here, but the thing I want to respond to right now is this:


You need to define irrational beliefs better.


I was thinking about this yesterday, and it occurred to me that it's really hard to say that a belief, per se, is rational or irrational. You can after all come to a false conclusion based on a perfectly rational analysis of incomplete or misleading information. And, vice versa, you can reach a correct conclusion even though your method of getting there is completely crazy.

So, yeah, to really answer the question we need a definition of "irrational beliefs."

So, to anybody who's reading this who's ever said or written or agreed with the statement "Everyone has irrational beliefs," how are you distinguishing between rational and irrational beliefs, and how are you distinguishing between beliefs and ... things other than beliefs, like emotions, fears, and perceptions?

[Steven Howard]

I lied. One other bit I wanted to reply to directly was this:

Because every serious study of irrational beliefs usually comes to the conclusion that for some specific belief, some huge percentage of people hold that belief. (Wason's three card task, or the work of Kahneman and Tversky, are good examples).

Okay, I Googled these names, and I'm not really sure how they relate to beliefs, or to the conversation that we're normally having when somebody pipes in with "everybody has irrational beliefs."

[Neally]

So for anybody who's ever said or written that everyone has irrational beliefs, or even just nodded their head sagely when someone else said it, I have to ask: How do you know?Likewise, how do you know they don't?

[Steven Howard]

Likewise, how do you know they don't?

Oh, I don't. Didn't I make that clear? I absolutely and without reservation admit that I have no idea what kinds of beliefs people I've never met or spoken to have or don't have. I make no claim one way or the other about the universality of irrational beliefs. I'm just asking the people who do make such a claim to support it.

[Alareth]

I've been told my deep, vindictive and bitter desire for all the Xbox's in the world to burst into flame and melt into smoking piles of slag is irrational. Does that count?

[Darat]

...snip...

So for anybody who's ever said or written that everyone has irrational beliefs, or even just nodded their head sagely when someone else said it, I have to ask: How do you know?


Because we are human beings.

And I'm not being trite with that response, there is so much research that demonstrates without a doubt that humans are not rational creatures and that what we call "rationality" is often nothing more than a rationalization for our behaviour.

(Of course we can use "rationality" the same way as we can use any other tool we've invented and developed.)

[ponderingturtle]

Oh, I don't. Didn't I make that clear? I absolutely and without reservation admit that I have no idea what kinds of beliefs people I've never met or spoken to have or don't have. I make no claim one way or the other about the universality of irrational beliefs. I'm just asking the people who do make such a claim to support it.

I prefer to think of beliefs unsupported by evidence. Everyone has them, you can't make any sort of value judgement with out them, and yet there are all kinds of woo that can be worded such that while unsupported by the evidence makes no testable claims.

[ponderingturtle]

Oh, I don't. Didn't I make that clear? I absolutely and without reservation admit that I have no idea what kinds of beliefs people I've never met or spoken to have or don't have. I make no claim one way or the other about the universality of irrational beliefs. I'm just asking the people who do make such a claim to support it.

I prefer to think of beliefs unsupported by evidence. Everyone has them, you can't make any sort of value judgement with out them, and yet there are all kinds of woo that can be worded such that while unsupported by the evidence makes no testable claims.