Who are the most powerful secret society?

[Liberman]

Guys,

I was thinking that there's quite a few different groups out there and they seem to be hell bent on taking control but which one of them has the most power. This obviously can't be measured but I'd like to see how everyone views all the different groups.

The groups I can think of so far are (not in any order yet....)

The Freemasons

The Illuminati

The Weavers

Skull and Bones

The Bildeburg

Please add anymore or which one of these has the most power?:D

[Finnegan]

Marylebone Cricket Club

Finnegan

[DC]

i would say, the Secret O's that you did not list, because you dont know them.

[defaultdotxbe]

i would say, the Secret O's that you did not list, because you dont know them.
Fraternal Order of Pink Unicorns and Invisible Bigfeet

[moon1969]

Yes Yes. Young boys from Yale rule the world? how stupid? The Bildeburg is just a group where old people meet. The Illuminati doesn"t exist anymore. The Freemasons nothing evil about that group.

[Confuseling]

Me (Mike) and my mate (Paul) once formed a secret organisation called Mike and Paul's Intelligence Agency. It's so secret. Seriously. We're not even allowed to tell each other when things we are doing are under MPIA's rubric.

Which brings me to ask, isn't this rather like asking which are the most unidentified UFOs?

[Naughtyhippo]

Hmmmm.....I think these can be boiled down to old boys clubs.....That's it! It's the conspiracy of rich old(ish) men to maintain the status quo and keep those uppity poor people and woman in their place!

[Dave Rogers]

Assuming that the OP was ironic - seems obvious to me, but I've been fooled before - then there's the reptoids, the British Royal Family (alternatively, see reptoids), the UN, the neocons, the Elders of Zion, and - of course - Canada.

If you weren't joking, please note that I was.

Dave

ETA: Does the Federal Reserve count? What about the oil companies? Halliburton?

[jhunter1163]

Don't forget the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission. Those usually show up somewhere along the line.

[rightshu]

Personally, I'm going to have to go with the Stonecutters. They did, after all, make Steve Guttenberg a star.

[Disbelief]

Loyal Order of Water Buffalo - Really, everyone fears the Grand Poobah!

[rightshu]

Yes Yes. Young boys from Yale rule the world? how stupid?

Stupid indeed. Skull and Bones doesn't seem to be that far removed from most other college fraternities, really. Are you telling me that you never did anything stupid and fraught with goofy symbolism in college (or that you'll never do anything stupid and fraught with goofy symbolism when you get to college if you're still in high school)? The fact that many Bonesmen have gone on to positions of power and prestige may have something to do with the fact that the society selects for those who are already the scions of power. It's like being shocked that a fraternity targeting college athletes would have a high percentage of its alumni go on to play for the NFL.

The Bildeburg is just a group where old people meet.

Actually, it's just a group designed to promote understanding and communication between the United States and the nations of Europe. Would it be more or less effective to have a group of 120 McDonald's fry chefs and avant-garde artists work to influence national policy in their respective homelands? Why or why not?

The Illuminati doesn"t exist anymore.

If you mean Adam Weishaupt's group of Enlightenment philosophers who agitated subtly for the abolishment of European monarchies, you're right. There just aren't that many monarchies left in Europe to overthrow. If you're talking about bad guys in a Dan Brown novel, well, they've never really existed.

The Freemasons nothing evil about that group.

When you consider that Freemasons build homes for the indigent, education for the impoverished, hospitals for burn victims and the victims of congenital disease, and programs to aid in the identification and recovery of missing children, it's hard to say that the Masons are "evil". Do you have any evidence that suggests the Masons do anything that would contradict their public image? Please note that "evidence" means something tangible, e.g. video of recognized Masons torturing kittens in a lodge. "Evidence" does not mean a chain of speculation and innuendo that culminates in a grandiloquent speech about how Jack the Ripper was a Mason.

If you were being serious, you're right on every score. If you were going for sarcasm, well, you fail it.

[DGM]

Loyal Order of Water Buffalo - Really, everyone fears the Grand Poobah!
Nobody is going to convince me that "Slate construction" is not profiting from the war.:D

[Phaedrus74]

Sorry to nitpick guys, but...

It's spelled Bilderberg, not Bildeburg. As in Hotel de Bilderberg (http://www.bilderberg.nl/hotels/hotel-de-bilderberg/) in Oosterbeek, the Netherlands.
(And yes, you can book a room for bragging rights.)

Sorry again for the interjection.

Carry on....

[aggle-rithm]

The militant branch of the Salvation Army.

[Disbelief]

Nobody is going to convince me that "Slate construction" is not profiting from the war.:D

Let's not forget that the Great Gazoo is proof of an alien overlord.

[IDB87]

Let's not forget that the Great Gazoo is proof of an alien overlord.

Speaking of Alien Overlords, why not throw good ol' Cthulhu into the mix. I mean, afterall, there isn't any proof DENYING the existance of the Cult of Cthulhu.

The stars are right, people!

[Minadin]

the Red Hat Society. Seriously. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hat_society)

[Normal Dude]

After years of painstaking research, I have found the group responsible for coordinating all of the above mentioned secret societies in the mission to estabilish a New World Order. They have been hiding in plain site the entire time:

http://www.castoff.info/

It's disturbing, I know.

[fuelair]

Fear the International Order of Friendly Sons of the Raccoons

[Foolmewunz]

Well, now that you've let it out of the bag, brothers Norton and Kramden will have to admit it, I guess.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_110854804bcaab97b0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=11761)

How can on ever forget the benefits of making Raccoon of the Year?

1. Opening the first clam at the annual clambake.

2. Steering from the bridge of the boat on the annual ride up the Hudson River to Raccoon point.

3. Free burial with spouse at Raccoon National Cemetery in Bismarck, North Dakota.

4. Chance to run for Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler

5. The honor of throwing the first bag of water out the hotel window at the Raccoon convention

[beachnut]

International Pancakes, and Boy Scouts

Hair Club for Men

[Jonnyclueless]

Don't forget

TPMS6tGOACo

[LastChild]

I don't know. They're probably a secret.

[Naughtyhippo]

International Pancakes, and Boy Scouts

Hair Club for Men

Oooooo, someone once told me that Boy Scouts was a pedophilic/homosexual conspiracy. I always thought he was nuts...UNTIL NOW!!!!

[Stellafane]

How about the Trilateral Commission? They've certainly got an impressive roster, and I thought one of their stated goals was literally to establish a new world order. On the other hand, they're not all that secret.

[Naughtyhippo]

Don't forget the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission. Those usually show up somewhere along the line.
How about the Trilateral Commission?

Ding ding ding we have a winner!

[Nim Chimpsky]

After years of painstaking research, I have found the group responsible for coordinating all of the above mentioned secret societies in the mission to estabilish a New World Order. They have been hiding in plain site the entire time:

http://www.castoff.info/

It's disturbing, I know.


I think I have to agree with you. That "DARK KNITTERS DANCE" surely has connections to necromancy, child molestation and human sacrifice.


http://www.castoff.info/movies/dark_knitters/dark_knitters_lge.wmv



'shudder'


You do realize that the words "skein" "yarn" and "knit" form the phrase:

A STINKY REIN......NK


This is an obvious prophesy to their evil intent of world domination. They have developed and are currently releasing a new breed of "NK" or "Natural Killer" cells,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_killer_cell


that will mutate into a "reverse NK" cell that will attack a person's immune system to near nothing. These NK cells are now being introduced into the water systems worldwide. It is nearly undetectable. Haven't you noticed how bad this cold and flu season was????? PROOF sheeple!! Wake up!

They will then release a common cold virus into every knitted product in the world. Simply putting on your scarf, pulling a sweater over your head or reaching for the next roll of toilet paper

http://www.crochet-pattern-club.com/images/rippletoilettissuecove.jpg



Will result in death.


These evil knitters then will tell the world that they have the only known antidote and will hold it back until their demands are met.


Evil I tells ya, evil.

[Swing Dangler]

I'm going to have to vote for the Bilderburgs.

[Alferd_Packer]

Stupid indeed. Skull and Bones doesn't seem to be that far removed from most other college fraternities, really.


http://sixmeatbuffet.com/images/thank-you-sir.JPG

"Thank you sir. May I have another?"

[NikZeta302]

What about the Church of Scientology, do they count?

[The Kilted Yaksman]

Obviously the Pentavirate. Made up of the Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went tits up.
Or maybe the Church of the Subgenius.

[ktesibios]

Don't forget the Junior Woodchucks!

[geni]

News Corporation
Chinese communist party

[Drudgewire]

Or maybe the Church of the Subgenius.

No, no... it's not us. We're... um... we're just a big joke.




:whistling

[DGM]

How about the ultimate; U.N.C.L.E.


Did I just reveal my age? :boxedin:

[uk_dave]

T.H.R.U.S.H

Though it's influence has diminished since the formation of the 'Cane Sten' organisation.

[Swing Dangler]

the title Secret Societies and Subversive Movements by Nesta H. Webster, first published in 1924.

It is an excellent researched and documented tome with outstanding reviews from the likes of the Daily Express, Irish Times, Masonic Record, Chicago Tribute, New York Herald Tribune, The Scotsman, English Review, and of all people an endorsement from H.G. Wells.

The pace is slow and tedious but the knowledge is well worth it.

[Dave Rogers]

Nah, KAOS is easily the most powerful. And it delivers the freshest milk.

Dave

[applecorped]

the title Secret Societies and Subversive Movements by Nesta H. Webster, first published in 1924.

It is an excellent researched and documented tome with outstanding reviews from the likes of the Daily Express, Irish Times, Masonic Record, Chicago Tribute, New York Herald Tribune, The Scotsman, English Review, and of all people an endorsement from H.G. Wells.

The pace is slow and tedious but the knowledge is well worth it.

From the book:

I use the word " anti-Semitism " here in the sense in which it has come be used--that is to say, anti-Jewry, but place it in inverted commas cause it is in reality a misnomer coined by the Jews in order to create a false impression.

http://www.illuminati-news.com/subversive-movements.htm

[DGM]

T.H.R.U.S.H

Though it's influence has diminished since the formation of the 'Cane Sten' organisation.
I see I'm not alone in the knowledge of these super secret organizations.:cool:

I won't say how old I was when the series came out in 1964 (what the hell I was 6)

[Par]

the title Secret Societies and Subversive Movements by Nesta H. Webster, first published in 1924. It is an excellent researched and documented tome with outstanding reviews... The pace is slow and tedious but the knowledge is well worth it.


There he goes again. He’s recommending a book of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories penned by a fascist and apologist for Nazi genocide as if it’s the most normal thing in the world – as if he’s recommending Dostoyevsky’s later works to a follow commuter on a railway platform.

[Swing Dangler]

From the book:

I use the word " anti-Semitism " here in the sense in which it has come be used--that is to say, anti-Jewry, but place it in inverted commas cause it is in reality a misnomer coined by the Jews in order to create a false impression.

http://www.illuminati-news.com/subversive-movements.htm

You left this out:

The object of the present book is therefore to carry further the enquiry I began in World Revolution, by tracing the course of revolutionary ideas through secret societies from the earliest times, indicating the rôle of the Jews only where it is to be clearly detected, but not seeking to implicate them where good evidence is not forthcoming. For this reason I shall not base assertions on merely " anti-Semite " works, but principally on the writings of the Jews themselves.

Now let me finish what your source or you choose to leave out of the preface:

"The word anti-Semite literally signifies a person who adopts a hostile attitude towards all the decedents of Shem-the Arabs, and the entire twelve tribes of Israel. To apply the term to a person who is merely antagonistic to that fraction of the semitic race known as the Jews is therefore absurd, and leads to the ridiculous situation that one may be described as anti-Semitic and pro-Arabian." This expresson actually occured in The New Palestine (New York), March 23, 1923. One might as well speak of being "anti-British and pro-English."[Footnote to Preface


You also left out her focus on the French, Germans, and English throughout the book as well.

But to stop you in your tracks when you start to head down the "anti-semite" route, you would do well to read the book. Her chapter on the Jews focuses on the difference between Mosaic law and the Talmud and how some Jews have spoken out against the Talmud as well as how the Talmud is not a positive influence on the Jewish community.

[Swing Dangler]

There he goes again. He’s recommending a book of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories penned by a fascist and apologist for Nazi genocide as if it’s the most normal thing in the world – as if he’s recommending Dostoyevsky’s later works to a follow commuter on a railway platform.

Terrible analysis of something you have never read in your life apparently and is in no way anti-semitic. Please read the book before commenting. Also can you source the other attacks on her or are you regurgitating WIKI?

Would an anti-semitic facist make this statement: I write however as no blind admirer of Hitler or of Nazi-ism, for, like most Britons, I prefer a regime of greater liberty, such as we enjoyed in the days when England was a free country, to one under which, however necessarily, it is curtailed.

Not quite the self-description Nazi fascist now, eh?

Someone who describes the historical actions of Hitler is now an apologist for Nazi genocide?

It appears to me you glanced at a couple of sentences and threw out some garbage to tarnish one book all from an unsourced Wiki entry.

[uk_dave]

Swing, you 'truthers' do read some utter crap, you know?

[fuelair]

Don't forget the Junior Woodchucks!Now that is one dangerous group!!!:jaw-dropp

[AZCat]

You left this out:


Now let me finish what your source or you choose to leave out of the preface:



You also left out her focus on the French, Germans, and English throughout the book as well.

But to stop you in your tracks when you start to head down the "anti-semite" route, you would do well to read the book. Her chapter on the Jews focuses on the difference between Mosaic law and the Talmud and how some Jews have spoken out against the Talmud as well as how the Talmud is not a positive influence on the Jewish community.

So the author hates Jews, but not Arabs? Well then that's okay. :rolleyes:

[Swing Dangler]

So the author hates Jews, but not Arabs? Well then that's okay. :rolleyes:

Can you cite where she says she hates Jews? No where in the book I'm referencing does she mention hatred of even dislike of Jews. She does point out the negative impact the Talmud has on some Jews in comparison to the Torah's impact.


uk_dave Swing, you 'truthers' do read some utter crap, you know?
Dave you usually make judgments on books you don't read?

[Tippit]

Guys,

I was thinking that there's quite a few different groups out there and they seem to be hell bent on taking control but which one of them has the most power. This obviously can't be measured but I'd like to see how everyone views all the different groups.

The groups I can think of so far are (not in any order yet....)

The Freemasons

The Illuminati

The Weavers

Skull and Bones

The Bildeburg

Please add anymore or which one of these has the most power?:D

"There are all kinds of secrets" - John Kerry (http://youtube.com/watch?v=HNRhR2Hgy4c&feature=related)

[AZCat]

Can you cite where she says she hates Jews? No where in the book I'm referencing does she mention hatred of even dislike of Jews. She does point out the negative impact the Talmud has on some Jews in comparison to the Torah's impact.

Does she need to say it explicitly, or can we conclude it from her body of work? Her essays on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, her writings for The Patriot, her rationalization of the treatment of Jews in Germany - are you aware of these?

[Nogbad]

It is like saying "there is no such thing as the perfect crime"

How the feck would we know?

Equally, by definition a truly secret society is completely unknown to all but its members.

[AgeGap]

And also by definition a truly, truly secret society is completely unknown to even its members.
Minadin nominated the Red Hat Society. These people want to topple Microsoft and are using Linux to do so. They know Bill Gates is the Antichrist.
I nominate the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.
Evidence?
I just like the word Hermetic.

[Confuseling]

...I write however as no blind admirer of Hitler or of Nazi-ism...

Doesn't that say enough? Damning oneself with faint condemnation, if such a phrase exists?

If I wrote: "although Pol Pot's economic policies were in some sense flawed" you would basically have two options: call me an idiot, or say I was making an ironic understatement.

Was she being ironic?

[AgeGap]

T.H.R.U.S.H

Though it's influence has diminished since the formation of the 'Cane Sten' organisation.
Whites in Nystatin, never reaching the end.....

[Swing Dangler]

Does she need to say it explicitly, or can we conclude it from her body of work? Her essays on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, her writings for The Patriot, her rationalization of the treatment of Jews in Germany - are you aware of these?

I think it is important to realize, at least based upon my understanding of her work that I have, that she separates Jews into those who are influenced by the Talmud as opposed to those who live by Mosaic law. The best analogy I liken it to the comparison of Muslims who practice Islam and those who practice radical Islam.

She does indeed criticize those who follow and practice the edicts in the Talmud as I'm sure anyone would if they understood what the Talmud states.
This is by no means anti-semitic. I haven't read her works on the Protocols but from what I've read she associates those with the Talmudic tradition.

In Societies she describes noble and honorable people of Jewish decent. This again is a non anti-semitic statement that should not becoming from a supposed anti-semitic nazi apologist.

I find it difficult if not impossible to label her as anti-semitic based upon her own comments as well as her description of Jews who practice Mosaic law versus Talmudic traditions.

From what I've read about her thoughts on Hitler, she does state that obvious that Hitler was successful in removing for the most part the Bolsheviks from Germany. Anti-semitic, no, anti-communist most certainly.

[SDC]

I think it is important to realize, at least based upon my understanding of her work that I have, that she separates Jews into those who are influenced by the Talmud as opposed to those who live by Mosaic law. The best analogy I liken it to the comparison of Muslims who practice Islam and those who practice radical Islam.

She does indeed criticize those who follow and practice the edicts in the Talmud as I'm sure anyone would if they understood what the Talmud states.
This is by no means anti-semitic. I haven't read her works on the Protocols but from what I've read she associates those with the Talmudic tradition.

In Societies she describes noble and honorable people of Jewish decent. This again is a non anti-semitic statement that should not becoming from a supposed anti-semitic nazi apologist.

I find it difficult if not impossible to label her as anti-semitic based upon her own comments as well as her description of Jews who practice Mosaic law versus Talmudic traditions.

From what I've read about her thoughts on Hitler, she does state that obvious that Hitler was successful in removing for the most part the Bolsheviks from Germany. Anti-semitic, no, anti-communist most certainly.

Ah, some of her best friends are Jews, are they? Where have we heard that one?

This is an old canard, by the way: decent Jews = Mosaic law (Torah), bad Jews = Talmud. Nuts. Swing D., please call home; Atrain, Kageki, and Magz are waiting for you.

Hitler "removed the bolsheviks..." Also a lot of others. Social Democrats of all stripes, some centrists, Catholic activists, liberals like the Mann boys, oh heck the list goes on and on and helps to explain how Hitler lost.

Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a composition of the Russian imperial police. You seem to find it reliable.

Well, at least you are finally out of the closet. It explains a lot.

[Par]

Terrible analysis of something you have never read in your life apparently and is in no way anti-semitic. Please read the book before commenting... Would an anti-semitic facist make this statement "I write however as no blind admirer of Hitler or of Nazi-ism, for, like most Britons, I prefer a regime of greater liberty, such as we enjoyed in the days when England was a free country, to one under which, however necessarily, it is curtailed." Not quite the self-description Nazi fascist now, eh?


You quite right, I’ve never read the book in question in my life (or out of it, for that matter). Similarly, I’ve not read the latest book by David Irving or the nonsense being written by creationists. Moreover, I didn’t claim that she was a Nazi at all, let alone a “self-description Nazi fascist” (whatever that means). Further, the fact that someone states that they are no blind admirer of Hitler or of Nazism and that they would prefer freedom were it to be feasible scarcely means that they are neither a Nazi nor a fascist. In fact, it suggests that they are at the least some kind of admirer of Hitler or of Nazism and means that they consider the revocation of freedom to be necessary.

[Par]

Someone who describes the historical actions of Hitler is now an apologist for Nazi genocide?


I suppose that would depend upon the way in which they describe them.

[Par]

You left this out:


Now let me finish what your source or you choose to leave out of the preface:

"The word anti-Semite literally signifies a person who adopts a hostile attitude towards all the decedents of Shem-the Arabs, and the entire twelve tribes of Israel. To apply the term to a person who is merely antagonistic to that fraction of the semitic race known as the Jews is therefore absurd, and leads to the ridiculous situation that one may be described as anti-Semitic and pro-Arabian."...


Incidentally, the above is an example this Ms. Webster falling foul of the etymological fallacy.

[gc051360]

Obviously the Pentavirate. Made up of the Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went tits up.
Or maybe the Church of the Subgenius.

If I am not mistaken, this is a line from "So I married an axe murderer"

But, obviously the most powerful group in any CT's mind is THEY.

[Viper Daimao]

I'd throw out Adam Selene's group.

[Foolmewunz]

[LCF Poster Mode] The JREF. [/LCF Poster Mode Off]

[Alareth]

I think all of you are overlooking the power weilded by the minions of the cosmetics giant Mary Kay.

Then again, what about Amway?

[Slayhamlet]

So which Jews follow the "edicts in the Talmud" to the letter? And which "edicts in the Talmud" that they follow are so particularly heinous, anyway? And in what way are these "edicts" any worse than the edicts in the Torah, or those in the Koran for that matter?

[HeyLeroy]

of course - Canada.


Knock that talk off right now!

I'm a member of a fraternity that my grandfather started in 1929. The name's a secret, but this symbol on my hat is how we recognize each other:


http://cdnl3.vidilife.com/image/2006/10/10/946639/1353139L.jpg

TWFuIG9oIG1hbiwgdGhlIHF1YWxpdHkgb2YgYXJndW1lbnRzIG Zyb20gdGhlIGxhdGVzdCBiYXRjaCBvZiB0cnV0aGVycyBpcyBj ZXJ0YWlubHkgc3ViLXBhci4=

[CHF]

I would recommend....the title Secret Societies and Subversive Movements by Nesta H. Webster, first published in 1924.

This has been quite a week for you, Swing - quite possibly your worst yet.

First you tried to defend that fraud Kevin McPadden. Then you dismissed NIST's claims as to how the WTC collapsed and failed to respond to research that backed them up. Then you falsely claimed that investigators model the impact of planes slamming into the earth. Then you tried to use Danny Jowenko's hilarious claims to explain why you have so few demolition experts.

And now you're recommending fascist literature.

Wow. :eek:

[fuelair]

And also by definition a truly, truly secret society is completely unknown to even its members.
Minadin nominated the Red Hat Society. These people want to topple Microsoft and are using Linux to do so. They know Bill Gates is the Antichrist.
I nominate the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.
Evidence?
I just like the word Hermetic.
The Red Hat Society is a secret cabal of women (over 50) set up to topple government from inside it's social structure (well, something maybe sort of like that - or not :)) and has no affiliation with Linux and Red Hat, Inc.:)

[Disbelief]

The He-Man Woman Haters Club

Just watch out for the guy with the funny hair who likes to sing.

[aggle-rithm]

TWFuIG9oIG1hbiwgdGhlIHF1YWxpdHkgb2YgYXJndW1lbnRzIG Zyb20gdGhlIGxhdGVzdCBiYXRjaCBvZiB0cnV0aGVycyBpcyBj ZXJ0YWlubHkgc3ViLXBhci4=

"Man oh man, the quality of arguments from the latest batch of truthers is certainly sub-par."

All your codes are belong to us!

[aggle-rithm]

I went to a presentation this weekend on nutrition for dogs and cats, and it was stated unequivocally that the big pet food cartels are in control of veterinary schools in the US. They have all the vets brainwashed into thinking that commercial pet food is the only safe source of nutrition for our beloved Fido.

Table scraps = DEATH!!!

I think this is only part of the picture, though. They are only a cog in the machine of the industrial-military-entertainment-petfood complex.

Oh, and the Joooos are in there somewhere, too.

[jhunter1163]

I went to a presentation this weekend on nutrition for dogs and cats, and it was stated unequivocally that the big pet food cartels are in control of veterinary schools in the US. They have all the vets brainwashed into thinking that commercial pet food is the only safe source of nutrition for our beloved Fido.

Table scraps = DEATH!!!

I think this is only part of the picture, though. They are only a cog in the machine of the industrial-military-entertainment-petfood complex.

Oh, and the Joooos are in there somewhere, too.

I wish I'd known about this sooner. I could have saved my brother's beloved Labrador, who died this past winter after 17 years of eating mainly refried beans.

[Doctor Evil]

Swing Dangler, the term antisemitism was coined, and most commonly used to describe prejudice against Jews. From your citation, you seem to want the term to mean prejudice against all Semitic people. However, this is not the common use of the term.

Are you are perturbed by terms whose meaning differs from the meaning of their parts? If so, have you ever had a hot dog? (A somewhat lame example, but I can give an example for a scientific term, which have its own problems, but this would need long explanation.)

Regarding the Talmud, I have not read it, and would have to refer to the opinions of others. For instance:
Are you actually reading the Talmud, or a collection of quotations from it? I ask because of your reference to "terrible" passages about the treatment of non-Jews. Compendia of such quotations are commonly found on antisemitic websites, most often associated with the "research" of one I. B. Praniatis, a Russian antisemite of the turn of the century. Many of his references are fabrications, and those that exist at all are invariably misquoted and/or taken out of context.

It is much more common to find admonitions to treat Gentiles with the same compassion and fairness that one extends to fellow Jews, often with reference to the Biblical injunction to "be kind to the stranger, since you were strangers in Egypt," which is repeated several times in the Torah. There are even many warnings that it is far worse to cheat a non-Jew than a Jew, because it is a "khillul ha-Shem", a shaming of the Holy Name.

The Talmud is an enormous work, running to dozens of folio-sized volumes with numerous sections and subsections on every page, of layers of commentaries and later commentaries on the commentaries. It is written in both Hebrew and Aramaic, and often uses shorthand-type references and allusions that were clear to the rabbis and sages of the time, but are opaque today to all but experts.

Its form is that of a record of debates among various scholars and sages from the same and from different periods, as if they were all in the same room at the same time. Various opinions on various points of Jewish law are given, often without a clear indication of what the final consensus was--if indeed there was one. It is often found that more than one answer was acceptable, and sometimes the acceptable answers were contradictory. The limits of the human intellect are very often acknowledged, and it is sometimes decided that "When Elijah comes, he will explain which of us is right--or why we both are." Sometimes outrageously wrongheaded, bigoted, or frankly evil opinions are included in order to be refuted; and sometimes such sayings are left without comment, just as one will see outrageous statements quoted without comment on this forum: their foolishness or evil is apparent to all and require none.

There is even humor in the Talmud, though perhaps unintentional. Though it is famous for analyzing every possible application and situation concerning a particular law, there were limits; in one passage discussing the ownership of a lost chicken, the consensus is reached that, if the chicken is found less than 100 cubits from the land of a man who raises chickens, the bird is assumed to be his; if found farther away, it belongs to he who found it. At this point in the discussion, one Rabbi Joseph is said to have asked, "What if the chicken is found with one foot closer than 100 cubits, and the other foot farther away?"

The text notes that "At that point, R. Joseph was asked to leave the Assembly."

As if all that complexity weren't enough, the traditional interpretation and priority of passages in the Talmud is generally not written, but passed down face-to-face by scholars in a tradition of group study that has persisted for centuries and is still followed today. If you are beginning to think that Talmud study is an esoteric field for dedicated experts akin to the study of quantum physics, you would not be wrong. There are, to be sure, some wonderful texts for the layman; "Everyman's Talmud", "The Talmud for Today", and "The Talmud for Dummies" are three, but there are many more.

In general, beware of any reference that seems to include a lot of shocking or patently immoral statements. It is not difficult, in the detailed records and commentaries of a thousand years of conversation and argument, to find such things and rip them from their contexts or deliberately misquote them to "prove" the "evil" taught in these books. One rather famous example, merrily quoted on Stormfront, JewWatch, and other such hate sites, is this: "Sex with a three-year-old child is as nothing"--of no account, insignificant. Horrible, right?

Here is the context: A loss of virginity, in the ancient world, incurred certain consequences, e.g., concerning the dowry or bride-price to be paid by the father or prospective husband, as well as in matters of ritual purification and the obvious social stigma. The sages were here agreeing that a small child who had been raped would not be made to suffer any such consequences in later life. Some horror, huh? Sparing a victim of child sexual abuse from being victimized for life. Deplorable.

You will not see this context revealed on any hate site--and there are many--that posts it. The deception is not an accident, nor from ignorance. It is quite deliberate. These misquotations and distortions of the Talmud have been circulating for centuries, and they continue to this day.

If you wish to study Talmud in a casual way, choose a book from a reputable publisher written by a recognized scholar, such as those recommended above. If you wish to study Talmud in the traditional manner, first learn Hebrew and Aramaic, then find a yeshiva or Beit Midrash and set aside the next 20 or 30 years for the task.

And good luck. There is a prominent rabbi here in Dallas, considered a world-class authority on Torah and Talmud--and he is still studying daily, and will be the last to tell you that he knows everything. No one, to my knowledge--not even the great sages of medieval times who were known to have memorized the entire Talmud, page numbers and all--has ever made that claim.


The Wikipedia article have similar opinion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud#Contemporary_accusations


It seems that most of the claims regarding the Talmud are from unsavory sources, who like to quote mine and take things out of context.

I would not judge anyone just by the material he reads. However, Swing Dangler seems to easily accept serious accusations against a particular group of people. Moreover, he present these to others as truth. Well, Swing, this leads me to suspect (until further evidence) that you are prejudiced against Jews.

I wonder what is the correct term to describe such prejudice?

[Swing Dangler]

Ah, some of her best friends are Jews, are they? Where have we heard that one?

This is an old canard, by the way: decent Jews = Mosaic law (Torah), bad Jews = Talmud. Nuts. Swing D., please call home; Atrain, Kageki, and Magz are waiting for you.

Hitler "removed the bolsheviks..." Also a lot of others. Social Democrats of all stripes, some centrists, Catholic activists, liberals like the Mann boys, oh heck the list goes on and on and helps to explain how Hitler lost.

Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a composition of the Russian imperial police. You seem to find it reliable.

Well, at least you are finally out of the closet. It explains a lot.

I will take complete offense to the assertion you are trying to make. The trick your pulling is reveled to all.

Your logic that Nester feels all Jews are bad by identifying one group as being a good group and the other is bad is nonsense. You suggestion is akin to all white people are bad because some white people are members of the KKK. Therefore your anti-Caucasian.

Or all black people are bad because some are members of the Black Panthers, while the majority are not. There fore your anti-African American. Frankly, I find your assertions pathetic and unwarranted and dishonest.

I find it quite amusing the logic you jump through to try to tarnish my character.

Tell me, are you an anti-Semite as you seem to be quite familiar with the tactics of that wretched group?

I do not of course find the Protocols as reliable. Another terrible dishonest logical leap as well.

CHF
Originally Posted by Swing Dangler View Post
I would recommend....the title Secret Societies and Subversive Movements by Nesta H. Webster, first published in 1924.
This has been quite a week for you, Swing - quite possibly your worst yet.

First you tried to defend that fraud Kevin McPadden. Then you dismissed NIST's claims as to how the WTC collapsed and failed to respond to research that backed them up. Then you falsely claimed that investigators model the impact of planes slamming into the earth. Then you tried to use Danny Jowenko's hilarious claims to explain why you have so few demolition experts.

And now you're recommending fascist literature.

Wow.
1. I did defend Kevin and provided two others witnesses that reported explosions. I did agree with you about the countdown being suspect. Have you proven him a fraud? Do you have a lie detector test to support your accusation?

2. I didn't dismiss NIST's explanation of collapse as there is not explanation because it was too difficult for computers to model.

3. I gave several examples of models being used to model airplane accidents, ie. crashes. You dismissed them or did not have the time to examine each case in depth. Not only that, you failed to produce any evidence supporting your comment!:newlol

4. I used Jowenko's explanation because he is a demo expert and would have a better clue about your question than any of us would. Better yet, perhaps you should contact him just to make sure he knows what he is talking about.
Are you up for that?

5. Finally, how can you describe literature as fascist when you have never read it? :mgduh

[applecorped]

I will take complete offense to the assertion you are trying to make. The trick your pulling is reveled to all.

Your logic that Nester feels all Jews are bad by identifying one group as being a good group and the other is bad is nonsense. You suggestion is akin to all white people are bad because some white people are members of the KKK. Therefore your anti-Caucasian.

Or all black people are bad because some are members of the Black Panthers, while the majority are not. There fore your anti-African American. Frankly, I find your assertions pathetic and unwarranted and dishonest.

I find it quite amusing the logic you jump through to try to tarnish my character.

Tell me, are you an anti-Semite as you seem to be quite familiar with the tactics of that wretched group?

I do not of course find the Protocols as reliable. Another terrible dishonest logical leap as well.


1. I did defend Kevin and provided two others witnesses that reported explosions. I did agree with you about the countdown being suspect. Have you proven him a fraud? Do you have a lie detector test to support your accusation?

2. I didn't dismiss NIST's explanation of collapse as there is not explanation because it was too difficult for computers to model.

3. I gave several examples of models being used to model airplane accidents, ie. crashes. You dismissed them or did not have the time to examine each case in depth. Not only that, you failed to produce any evidence supporting your comment!:newlol

4. I used Jowenko's explanation because he is a demo expert and would have a better clue about your question than any of us would. Better yet, perhaps you should contact him just to make sure he knows what he is talking about.
Are you up for that?

5. Finally, how can you describe literature as fascist when you have never read it? :mgduh

A lie detector? Maybe you should try one but I doubt you would accept the results when it shows you are full of ****.Please do not partially mask swear words.

Keep believing the worst if you choose, you seem most comfortable wallowing in woo.

[aggle-rithm]

I wish I'd known about this sooner. I could have saved my brother's beloved Labrador, who died this past winter after 17 years of eating mainly refried beans.

Beloved Labrador + 17 years of refried beans + cumulative resulting poopage = DEATH!!!

[SDC]

Heck, Swing D., I'm glad you are amused. Revel on! (I am assuming you mean "revel" as in celebrate and the like. Party, party.)

ETA: you actually wrote the past participle, "reveled," but I hope you don't mind my using the present or root form of the verb.

[Drudgewire]

A lie detector? Maybe you should try one but I doubt you would accept the results when it shows you are full of sh*t.

Keep believing the worst if you choose, you seem most comfortable wallowing in woo.

Then relying on the results of a polygraph would be right up his alley.

http://antipolygraph.org/

[Nick Terry]

5. Finally, how can you describe literature as fascist when you have never read it? :mgduh

when it's written by a fascist, of course. Or are you going to deny that Nesta Webster was a BUF member?

[SDC]

BUF = British Union of Fascists, the Mosleyites of the 1930s. (Sorry to step on your lines, Nick, but they aren't well known in the States.)

ETA: my own guess is that Swing D. came across this somewhere, more or less accidentally, and then read a few chapter headings and anything on the jacket. Case study in "caveat lector, because otherwise said lector is likely to put his feet right squarely in it."

[Nick Terry]

No doubt Swing will point up the fact that Webster wrote Secret Societies in 1921 and only "went bad" later on. Well, sorry, no: anyone touting conspiracist theories in the wake of the 1917 Revolution deserves to be excoriated as a proto-fascist just waiting to make the transition. And guess what, Webster did.

What amazes me about conspiracists is their hypocrisy. It's okay for them to allege almighty conspiracies on the basis of tenuous connections, but mention the far better documented connections of one conspiracist guru or one source to another, dubious guru or source, and they squeal like stuck pigs about how unfair it is to 'smear' their gurus. And then proclaim about how great they are at separating the wheat from the fascist, antisemitic chaff, before posting gibberish nonsense about Talmud Jews.

[Cuddles]

Now let me finish what your source or you choose to leave out of the preface:

Quote:
"the ridiculous situation that one may be described as anti-Semitic and pro-Arabian." This expresson actually occured in The New Palestine (New York), March 23, 1923. One might as well speak of being "anti-British and pro-English."[Footnote to Preface ]

So, wait, in an effort to try to make describing some as "anti-Semitic and pro-Arabian" seem silly, she compares it with the entirely normal occurence of being "anti-British and pro-English"? When your book fails while still in the preface, you know you've got problems.

[Finnegan]

Swingdangler, it would be grossly unfair to say that you hold the same views as those expressed by the author you're recommending. However, I feel that you may have misinterpreted her work or only read from it partially.

"5. Finally, how can you describe literature as fascist when you have never read it? "

It would be ludicrous to claim that Nesta Webster was not a fascist. Not only was she a member of the BUF, but she wrote a political tract titled The Need for Fascism in Great Britain.

It is also ludicrous to say that she was not anti-semitic, but she can show that herself:

"Anti-semitic, no, anti-communist most certainly."

From The Patriot:

"For it must not be forgotten that in Germany, as everywhere else in the East of Europe, the Communists being predominantly Jewish, suppressing Communism necessarily involves taking action against a number of Jews...[Hitler] has shown his determination to deal firmly with disintegrating movements and has done what no other statesman of his day has dared to do--set out to grapple fearlessly with the Jewish problem..."

"Your logic that Nester feels all Jews are bad by identifying one group as being a good group and the other is bad is nonsense."

From The Patriot:

"It is idle to say that this vast ambition has been falsely attributed to the Jewish race."

From The Origin and Progress of the World Revolution:

"What mysteries of iniquity would be revealed if the Jew, like the mole, did not make a point of working in the dark! Jews have never been more Jews than when we tried to make them men and citizens."

Oh, sorry for the strange format of my post. I'm still getting used to the forums.

[Disbelief]

3. I gave several examples of models being used to model airplane accidents, ie. crashes. You dismissed them or did not have the time to examine each case in depth. Not only that, you failed to produce any evidence supporting your comment!:newlol


Why do you continue to lie about this? It was repeatedly explained to you that CHF specifically stated an airplane crash into the ground. However, you continue to cite examples of in air break-ups. Why are you misrepresenting someone like this when it is written out for all the world to see?

[The Kilted Yaksman]

Beloved Labrador + 17 years of refried beans + cumulative resulting poopage = DEATH!!!
Actually, I think we have now discovered the catalyst for the hole in the ozone layer and global warming. Lab+17yrs frijoles refritos=cubic parsecs of gaseous emanations...

[jhunter1163]

Lie detectors most certainly can be beaten. The one time I took one, I lied like a rug all the way through it and still passed. Just thought cool thoughts.

[Par]

Why do you continue to lie about this? It was repeatedly explained to you that CHF specifically stated an airplane crash into the ground. However, you continue to cite examples of in air break-ups. Why are you misrepresenting someone like this when it is written out for all the world to see?


Indeed. He attempts some staggeringly blatant deceptions at times. I don’t think he realises how transparent they are. He must just click “POST REPLY” and think to himself “They won’t notice”.

[jhunter1163]

Actually, I think we have now discovered the catalyst for the hole in the ozone layer and global warming. Lab+17yrs frijoles refritos=cubic parsecs of gaseous emanations...

This was true. This Lab was, without question, the most flatulent creature I've ever been around. Even more so than my brother.

[Disbelief]

Indeed. He attempts some staggeringly blatant deceptions at times. I don’t think he realises how transparent they are. He must just click “POST REPLY” and think to himself “They won’t notice”.

He is like CIT, where he takes what people say to a point and then zones out.

[Swing Dangler]

[QUOTE=Doctor Evil;3624808]Swing Dangler, the term antisemitism was coined, and most commonly used to describe prejudice against Jews. From your citation, you seem to want the term to mean prejudice against all Semitic people. However, this is not the common use of the term.
Are you are perturbed by terms whose meaning differs from the meaning of their parts? If so, have you ever had a hot dog? (A somewhat lame example, but I can give an example for a scientific term, which have its own problems, but this would need long explanation.)

Doctor Evil, please catch up. The term antisemite is a term used to describe prejudice against Jews and Arabs. The word was coined in 1879 from the Greek words "anti", meaning "against" and "Semite", meaning a descendant of Shem. Now you would have a huge point if it were Anti-Jewish writings but the text didn't and therefore your point is nil. The text itself was published in 1924. It is 2008.

Secondly, the author described that term and its use in her novel to avoid the unfounded criticism that you are starting to build based upon the meaning of the term. Nice try, but you fail.



Regarding the Talmud, I have not read it, and would have to refer to the opinions of others. For instance: It seems that most of the claims regarding the Talmud are from unsavory sources, who like to quote mine and take things out of context.

I would not judge anyone just by the material he reads. However, Swing Dangler seems to easily accept serious accusations against a particular group of people. Moreover, he present these to others as truth. Well, Swing, this leads me to suspect (until further evidence) that you are prejudiced against Jews.

I wonder what is the correct term to describe such prejudice?

You haven't read it?! Perhaps you should. You want to use an anonymous source WIKI?
Let me end this right now:

In the thirteenth century a converted Jew and former Talmudist Donin who, on his baptism, assumed the name Nicholas, presented himself before the Pope, Gregory IX, " and brought charges against the Talmud, saying that it distorted the words the words of Holy Writ and in the Agadic portions that it contained many gross errors and absurdities, further that "it was filled with abuse against the founder of the Christian religion and the Virgin. ...
" he stated that the Talmudical writings taught it was a meritious action to kill the best man among Christians...that it was lawful to deceive a Christian without any scruple; that it was permitted to Jews to break a promise made on oath." Other commands...Kill even the best of the Gentiles..." Graetz-History of the Jews.

So your source, wiki, is really nothing compared to a person who actually practiced the Talmud and then highlighted particular passages for the public record.

Lets add the following analysis about the Talmud: it expressly forbids saving a non-Jew from death, to restore lost goods, to have pity on him.-Drach, De l'Harmonie entre l'Elise et la Synagogue.


Tell me again about Wiki and its reliability?

The author then goes on to discuss how many Jews have spoken against the Talmud.

Then, good Doctor, you go into accusations about a select group of people (those who follow the Talmud) and then try to apply that to all people of that same ethnic group i( all Jews) in attempt to label me as prejudice against all Jews. What nerve you and intellectual dishonesty you have!

That logic as discussed in another post can follow this line:
You are prejudice against all whites, because some whites are members of the KKK and you don't agree with the rules and beliefs of the KKK.

You are prejudice against all blacks, because some blacks are members of the Black Panthers and you don't agree with the rules and beliefs of membership.

Of course I know why you are being illogical because that is the only dishonest and unfounded way of trying and failing in vain to label me as anti-Semite and prejudice against Jews!

Terrible reading comprehension I might add as well. The criticism is of course about the document itself and its commands. You could easily replace Jew with Caucasian and it doesn't change language of the document.

You then contradict yourself with your oh so noble comment that you wouldn't "judge a person by what he reads" but then you turn around and do exactly that. Not only that, your basing all of this on two books you haven't even read.

And finally, many of my Jewish friends would have a huge huge problem with you stating I'm prejudice against Jews. Then again, they would find your comment as unfounded and uneducated as I find it.

[Swing Dangler]

Swingdangler, it would be grossly unfair to say that you hold the same views as those expressed by the author you're recommending. However, I feel that you may have misinterpreted her work or only read from it partially.

"5. Finally, how can you describe literature as fascist when you have never read it? "

It would be ludicrous to claim that Nesta Webster was not a fascist. Not only was she a member of the BUF, but she wrote a political tract titled The Need for Fascism in Great Britain.

It is also ludicrous to say that she was not anti-semitic, but she can show that herself:

"Anti-semitic, no, anti-communist most certainly."

From The Patriot:

"For it must not be forgotten that in Germany, as everywhere else in the East of Europe, the Communists being predominantly Jewish, suppressing Communism necessarily involves taking action against a number of Jews...[Hitler] has shown his determination to deal firmly with disintegrating movements and has done what no other statesman of his day has dared to do--set out to grapple fearlessly with the Jewish problem..."

"Your logic that Nester feels all Jews are bad by identifying one group as being a good group and the other is bad is nonsense."

From The Patriot:

"It is idle to say that this vast ambition has been falsely attributed to the Jewish race."

From The Origin and Progress of the World Revolution:

"What mysteries of iniquity would be revealed if the Jew, like the mole, did not make a point of working in the dark! Jews have never been more Jews than when we tried to make them men and citizens."

Oh, sorry for the strange format of my post. I'm still getting used to the forums.

Source please for your quotes?

[Hans]

The greatest secret group? The Belgians, come'on you don't think there a real country do you?

[Par]

Source please for your quotes?


There’s you with your quirky source questions again. Why have you asked that? The sources for the quotations are clearly specified in the post itself. They are “The Patriot”, “The Patriot” and “The Origin and Progress of the World Revolution”.

[dudalb]

And for his next act, Swing will prove that Adolf Hitler was not a Anti Semite.....
Nesta Webster is a notorious Anti Semite.Whether she was actually a Nazi or not is IMHO,a technicality.
I don't know if Swing is an Anti Semite or not, but he is defending some pretty anti semitic theories here.
I had little respect for Swing before, and Now I have none. He is either trying to hide his bigotry using the "some of my best friends are Jews" routine or he is a blithering idiot.
And that is another evil of conspriacy theories, folks. They lead,almost inevitably,to Anti Semitism.

[dudalb]

As for the most powerful secret society, I would a tie between SPECTRE, HYDRA, or
Ras Al Ghul and his League of Shadows.
The world would have been conquered long ago if it were not for James Bond, Nick Fury, and Batman.

[dudalb]

BTW for Info on Nesta Webster:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nesta_Webster

Wikipedia is not the most reliable of sources,(I am a pretty big critic of it) but this article is accurate,and I challenge anybody based on it to deny that Webster did not hate the Jews.
One of the more disgusting things about conspiracy theorists is that they will defend any fellow conspiracy theorists , no matter how disreputable they are.
Unless they have a different conspiracy theory,in which case open warfare ensues.

[Confuseling]

Heck, Swing D., I'm glad you are amused. Revel on! (I am assuming you mean "revel" as in celebrate and the like. Party, party.)

ETA: you actually wrote the past participle, "reveled," but I hope you don't mind my using the present or root form of the verb.

Is anyone else autistic spectrum enough to find it wildly amusing that this post was given the editing reason 'grammar'?

Sorry.

[dudalb]

The greatest secret group? The Belgians, come'on you don't think there a real country do you?

They are just a bunch of people who can't make up their minds whether they are French or Dutch....

[Par]

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9056/capturent1.jpg

It's a quotation, it appears.

ETA: It’s fairly obvious from the above, but just to clarify: It’s a quotation of Prudhomme (whoever that is) from Webster’s book.

[Doctor Evil]

[QUOTE]

Doctor Evil, please catch up. The term antisemite is a term used to describe prejudice against Jews and Arabs. The word was coined in 1879 from the Greek words "anti", meaning "against" and "Semite", meaning a descendant of Shem. Now you would have a huge point if it were Anti-Jewish writings but the text didn't and therefore your point is nil. The text itself was published in 1924. It is 2008.

Secondly, the author described that term and its use in her novel to avoid the unfounded criticism that you are starting to build based upon the meaning of the term. Nice try, but you fail.



To the best of my knowledge the terms is used in academic circles to refer to Jew hatred. This is the common accepted use, and is almost universally accepted. (Though, I would be happy if someone like Nick Terry could confirm that). The fact that you can find one or few authors which use the term differently is not that surprising, but is not the issue here.

You haven't read it?! Perhaps you should.

Well, have you read it? I suspect not. It is a fairly large book.

Lets do an experiment. You claimed that
: it expressly forbids saving a non-Jew from death.
This is a strong claim. Please tell me in what book and chapter can I find this claim. I will try to follow what I can find there, and will summarize it in context.

[dudalb]

How long until Swing starts defending "The Protocols of the Learned Elders Of Zion" as being as accurate book?
Probably about two or three the days the way he is going.

[Nick Terry]

[quote=Swing Dangler;3625238]

To the best of my knowledge the terms is used in academic circles to refer to Jew hatred. This is the common accepted use, and is almost universally accepted. (Though, I would be happy if someone like Nick Terry could confirm that). The fact that you can find one or few authors which use the term differently is not that surprising, but is not the issue here.

The term Antisemitismus was coined in the 1880s by Wilhelm Marr, someone who can colloquially be called a 'Jew hater'. No prizes for guessing what the German word-ending -ismus corresponds to in English.

So for antisemites to claim that antisemitism was "invented" by the Jews is preposterous, especially when the most famous antisemitic movement in history, the Nazis, boasted a whole slew of leaders who proclaimed themselves to be antisemites, meaning Jew-haters (Rosenberg, Streicher and of course Uncle Dolfy himself).

Note how the waffling and hairsplitting progresses in truly classic form from Swing:

1. 'I'm not antisemitic'
2. 'antisemitism doesn't mean anti-Jew because Semitic blahblahblah'
3. 'some of my best friends are Jews'

Keep digging...

[aggle-rithm]

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9056/capturent1.jpg

It's a quotation, it appears.

Ooooh, Swing, are you gonna let him get away with that?!?

[dudalb]

When Swing begun the crap about Talmudic and Non Talmudic Jews, I knew he had been seduced by the Dark Side.
Just more proof that buying into Conspiracy Theories can be hazardous to your mental health. There is a real tendacy to go deeper and deeper in paranoia.
I would bet that most believers in the Grand Conspiracy Theories ( A Small Secret Group Plotting To Take Over The World) either grow up,see the light, and give up the kooky theories, or become out and out Anti Semites.

[Drudgewire]

I would bet that most believers in the Grand Conspiracy Theories ( A Small Secret Group Plotting To Take Over The World) either grow up,see the light, and give up the kooky theories, or become out and out Anti Semites.

As one who was right at the point of no return, I'll vouch for this. It really is tempting, they are such a convenient answer to everything as long as you let paranoia usurp common sense.

[SDC]

Damn, I'm going to go out and follow the Talmud now...

Reading that over, I can only say, it's a nonsensical statement. The Talmud is not a law code, or a set of instructions. It sure is a ton of active interpreting, often conflicting; it's been compared to a kind of template for the Web.

Give it up, Swing D. You have no idea what you are talking about. Try something else. ETA: Tatting?

[dudalb]

Damn, I'm going to go out and follow the Talmud now...

Hope you are VERY fluent in Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic.

Give it up, Swing D. You have no idea what you are talking about. Try something else. ETA: Tatting?

In other words, business as usual as Swing, except for the added bigotry.

[CHF]

1. I did defend Kevin and provided two others witnesses that reported explosions. I did agree with you about the countdown being suspect. Have you proven him a fraud? Do you have a lie detector test to support your accusation?

McPadden changes his story by the minute, and even you admit his Red Cross claims are silly. Yet you defend the man.

2. I didn't dismiss NIST's explanation of collapse as there is not explanation because it was too difficult for computers to model.You were directed to Frank Greening's work which back's up NIST's claim.

3. I gave several examples of models being used to model airplane accidents, ie. crashes. You dismissed them or did not have the time to examine each case in depth. Not only that, you failed to produce any evidence supporting your comment!:newlolWhy do you keep ignoring the crash into the ground part? Do you not think anyone notices?

4. I used Jowenko's explanation because he is a demo expert and would have a better clue about your question than any of us would. Better yet, perhaps you should contact him just to make sure he knows what he is talking about.
Are you up for that?
I'd love to but your expert has gone quiet on all things 9/11. Maybe he got a US government contract. :rolleyes:

5. Finally, how can you describe literature as fascist when you have never read it? :mgduhShe was a BUF member. Clear enough for ya, Swingy?

At this point I think it's fair to say that you are knowingly being dishonest. No one makes this many screw-ups by mistake.

Sorry for the derail...

[applecorped]

I hope they don't make a sequel to V for Vendetta. I'm hoping use of that mask will end soon. There was a rally here in Boston a couple of days ago where protesters stood outside the Scientology center wearing Guy Fawkes masks. In that case I understand it; who wants a cult going after you?

[Liberman]

I'm glad this topic has got everyone talking and some debate going as this was my intention. I think many view this with scepticism but I'm a true believer in secret societies and think there is more to them than just laughing them off. I also think that some of these groups have religious links and are far more dangerous than we realise.

So far I think the Masons are top of the list and as for Skull and Bones I think they install things into people that they then take into other groups so should be seen as pretty powerful. The weavers are also a pretty dangerous bunch from what I've read, check out: the weaver code .com

[SDC]

The Weavers?? Pete Seeger, Lee Hayes, Ronnie Gilbert, and Fred what's-his-name?? Well, I guess Pete and Hayes were actual communists at some point, and got blacklisted. Goes to show. Something.

[Pato2747]

Guys,

I was thinking that there's quite a few different groups out there and they seem to be hell bent on taking control but which one of them has the most power. This obviously can't be measured but I'd like to see how everyone views all the different groups.

The groups I can think of so far are (not in any order yet....)

The Freemasons

The Illuminati

The Weavers

Skull and Bones

The Bildeburg

Please add anymore or which one of these has the most power?:D

You missed CFR.

[dudalb]

I'm glad this topic has got everyone talking and some debate going as this was my intention. I think many view this with scepticism but I'm a true believer in secret societies and think there is more to them than just laughing them off. I also think that some of these groups have religious links and are far more dangerous than we realise.

So far I think the Masons are top of the list and as for Skull and Bones I think they install things into people that they then take into other groups so should be seen as pretty powerful. The weavers are also a pretty dangerous bunch from what I've read, check out: the weaver code .com


Yeah, the Shriners are plotting to take over the world.
As my brother who is a Mason says:
"Yeah, taking over the world is on our agenda..but first we have to settle on which day we have the annual All You Can Eat Crab Feed."
There is really very little that is secret about the Freemasons. A few passwords and secret hand shakes to get you into meetings where it becomes as dull as any other club meetings.
The Free mason conspiracy stuff is dumb paranoia at it's worse. And if the Masons are so all powerful, why are they having to close some Masonic Halls for lack of funds?.
And the Skulls And Bones is just a Rich Kids Club with some Halloween trimmings.

[SDC]

Hope you are VERY fluent in Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic....



Not me. Strictly prayerbook level. But one suspects -- mind you, merely suspects, and I'd be happy to be corrected -- that Swing D.'s level of Hebrew/ Aramaic literacy is even less.

My point was really that the Talmud isn't a book of rules. (As some would have it -- "be mean to gentiles," or something.) It's a compilation of interpretations of the written and oral torah... But heck. Swing D. knows that.

[beachnut]

[quote]
And finally, many of my Jewish friends would have a huge huge problem with you stating I'm prejudice against Jews. Then again, they would find your comment as unfounded and uneducated as I find it.
Source? Many? Do they know you are truthy? To shy to share your lack of evidence ideas with your many Jewish friends?

I doubt any of your many Jewish friends know you are a fact less truther on 9/11. Do they? Proof? Many? Is that more than 1?

This proves the most powerful secret society is 9/11 truth. They have kept their "ample evidence" secret for 6 years. I call that powerful something!

[Par]

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/7928/c3qr8.jpg

[Swing Dangler]

How long until Swing starts defending "The Protocols of the Learned Elders Of Zion" as being as accurate book?
Probably about two or three the days the way he is going.
Never of course.

Nesta even comments on that fact. Hmmm a supposed anti-semite facist Hitler lover find no merit in the Protocols.

aggle-rithm
Originally Posted by Par View Post
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9056/capturent1.jpg

It's a quotation, it appears.
Ooooh, Swing, are you gonna let him get away with that?!?
I haven't read that book nor the quote mine.
Nothing to get away with. Nesta as already established the division of the Jewish community into Talmudic and non-Talmudic following Jews. Her critical comments are directed to those within the Talmudic camp. To be fair though, I haven't read the preceding chapters to that comment as written by another author.


SDC

Reading that over, I can only say, it's a nonsensical statement. The Talmud is not a law code, or a set of instructions. It sure is a ton of active interpreting, often conflicting; it's been compared to a kind of template for the Web.
Now to completely shut you down....
Rabbi Morris N. Kertzer, Directory of Intereligious Activities of the American Jewish Committee wrote concerning the role of the Talmud in Judaism: "The Talmud consists of 63 books of legal, ethical and historical writings of the ancient rabbis. It was edited five centuries after the birth of Jesus. It is a compendium of Law and Lore. It is the legal code which forms the Basis of Jewish Religious Law , and it is the Textbook used in the training of Rabbis."

For example: Sanhedrin X, 3, f.88b:
"He who transgresses the words of the scribes sins more gravely than the transgressors of the words of the law."
In the book Mizbeach, cap. V, we find the following:
"There is nothing superior to the Holy Talmud."


Doctor Evil-Lets do an experiment. You claimed that
Quote:
: it expressly forbids saving a non-Jew from death.
This is a strong claim. Please tell me in what book and chapter can I find this claim. I will try to follow what I can find there, and will summarize it in context.

First off, your reading comprehension fails you. I didn't not claim that. It was a quote. Please make a mental note about the difference between a personal claim of mine and a quote from a text.
Secondly, there is no need to summarize anything, it is completely clear in its description.
A quick vocab check:
"("Akum" (עכו"ם) is an acronym of "Ovdey Kochavim U'Mazalot" (עובדי כוכבים ומזלות), literally "worshippers of stars and zodiac signs", but is actually a term for believers in non-Jewish faiths)."

Choschen Hamm. (425, 5): "If you see a heretic, who does not believe in the Torah, fall into a well in which there is a ladder, hurry at once and take it away and say to him 'I have to go and take my son down from a roof; I will bring the ladder back to you at once' or something else. The Kuthaei, however, who are not our enemies, who take care of the sheep of the Israelites, are not to be killed directly, but they must not be saved from death."
Iore Dea (158, 1): "The Akum who are not enemies of ours must not be killed directly, nevertheless they must not be saved from danger of death. For example, if you see one of them fall into the sea, do not pull him out unless he promises to give you money."

Maimonides, in Hilkhoth Akum (X, 1) says: "Do not have pity for them, for it is said (Deuter. VII, 2): Show no mercy unto them. Therefore, if you see an Akum in difficulty or drowning, do not go to his help. And if he is in danger of death, do not save him from death.

These are just a few of the comments that may have caused the Catholic Church (which I'm not a member of)...in 553 the Emperor Justinian forbade the spread of the Talmudic books throughout the Roman Empire. In the 13th century "Popes Gregory IX and Innocent IV condemned the books of the Talmud as containing every kind of vileness and blasphemy against Christian truth, and ordered them to be burned because they spread many horrible heresies."Later, they were condemned by many other Roman Pontiffs - Julius III, Paul IV, Pius IV, Pius V, Gregory XIII, Clement VIII, Alexander VII, Benedict XIV, and by others who issued new editions of the Index of Forbidden Books according to the orders of the Fathers of the Council of Trent, and even in our own time.


Nick Terry
So for antisemites to claim that antisemitism was "invented" by the Jews is preposterous, especially when the most famous antisemitic movement in history, the Nazis, boasted a whole slew of leaders who proclaimed themselves to be antisemites, meaning Jew-haters (Rosenberg, Streicher and of course Uncle Dolfy himself).

I did not realize anti-semites claim Jews invented the word. Thank you for that tid bit of information.

Note how the waffling and hairsplitting progresses in truly classic form from Swing:1. 'I'm not antisemitic'
2. 'antisemitism doesn't mean anti-Jew because Semitic blahblahblah'
3. 'some of my best friends are Jews'

I pointed out the anti-semtic reference from th book. And as such, I am not prejudice towards anyone who is a decedent of Shem be it Jew or Arab.
And most importantly of all, I'm certainly not Anti-Jewish. I think you will find opposing comments to those who use to post here that were Anti-Jewish.

There is no waffling of course or hairsplitting. Your attempting the same character attack as the others and it fails miserably.

The book I original referenced pertaining to Secret Societies focuses on the Illuminati, Pan-Germans, Frenchmen, Englishmen, and Talmudic Jews. Your vile failed subtle attempt to tarnish my character has been exposed as academic dishonesty. That is too bad, I thought you might have something intelligent to say about Secret Societies, alas I was wrong.

[Retrograde]

The Red Hat Society is a secret cabal of women (over 50) set up to topple government from inside it's social structure (well, something maybe sort of like that - or not :)) and has no affiliation with Linux and Red Hat, Inc.

Ha! That's what we^H^Hthey want you to believe.

I haven't seen the Jesuits mentioned yet.

The real conspiracy, though, is the local works department, which somehow manages to tear up the street/sidewalk every place I want to go. How do they do that?

[SDC]

Thank heaven that Swing D. says he is not anti-Jewish! That is one heck of a load off my mind. And I applaud your efforts at research. They are certainly efforts.

I stand by my comment about the Talmud. It is not a law code. Note I said "code." That is different from a compilation of interpretations and arguments, which is what it is. It can be seen as a guide to behavior, but you have to work it out; it's more like a guide to figuring out or learning proper behavior. It's quite common for diametrically opposed views to be expressed and not resolved. That's not the way a law code works. ("You can run a red light, and here are the authorities that said so." "No, you can't, here is why your authorities are wrong, and here are mine, who are right.")

Also, I find your use of Hebrew simply darling. Please don't stop doing that. It gives me goose bumps. Or maybe that was goose steps. I forget.

(NB: the "goose step" was by no means either an exclusively Nazi or German practice, as is commonly thought in the US. Quite popular in central Europe. I will never forget, from my graduate student days, a chilling moment at the tomb of the unknown Polish soldier in Warsaw, when I realized that the honor guard was performing the step. That was then. Don't know what they do now. )

[Par]

I would ask that we refrain from allowing Swing Dangler to turn this thread into a sordid discussion about the minutiae of what he considers to be wrong with “the Jews”. The assertion that the author he recommends was an anti-Semite, a fascist and a Nazi apologist has been fairly straightforwardly established.

[Doctor Evil]

First off, your reading comprehension fails you. I didn't not claim that. It was a quote. Please make a mental note about the difference between a personal claim of mine and a quote from a text.
Secondly, there is no need to summarize anything, it is completely clear in its description.
A quick vocab check:
"("Akum" (עכו"ם) is an acronym of "Ovdey Kochavim U'Mazalot" (עובדי כוכבים ומזלות), literally "worshippers of stars and zodiac signs", but is actually a term for believers in non-Jewish faiths)."

Choschen Hamm. (425, 5): "If you see a heretic, who does not believe in the Torah, fall into a well in which there is a ladder, hurry at once and take it away and say to him 'I have to go and take my son down from a roof; I will bring the ladder back to you at once' or something else. The Kuthaei, however, who are not our enemies, who take care of the sheep of the Israelites, are not to be killed directly, but they must not be saved from death."
Iore Dea (158, 1): "The Akum who are not enemies of ours must not be killed directly, nevertheless they must not be saved from danger of death. For example, if you see one of them fall into the sea, do not pull him out unless he promises to give you money."

Maimonides, in Hilkhoth Akum (X, 1) says: "Do not have pity for them, for it is said (Deuter. VII, 2): Show no mercy unto them. Therefore, if you see an Akum in difficulty or drowning, do not go to his help. And if he is in danger of death, do not save him from death.

These are just a few of the comments that may have caused the Catholic Church (which I'm not a member of)...in 553 the Emperor Justinian forbade the spread of the Talmudic books throughout the Roman Empire. In the 13th century "Popes Gregory IX and Innocent IV condemned the books of the Talmud as containing every kind of vileness and blasphemy against Christian truth, and ordered them to be burned because they spread many horrible heresies."Later, they were condemned by many other Roman Pontiffs - Julius III, Paul IV, Pius IV, Pius V, Gregory XIII, Clement VIII, Alexander VII, Benedict XIV, and by others who issued new editions of the Index of Forbidden Books according to the orders of the Fathers of the Council of Trent, and even in our own time.



The context of your qoute was such that it was clear to any reasonable person reading your post that you agree with it, making it your claim too.

Anyway, I have managed to find a translation of the Talmud here:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Talmud/talmudtoc.html

For some reason, I can not find the books you metioned, 'Choschen Hamm', '
Iore Dea' or 'Hilkhoth Akum'. To be more precise, the first two do not appear, while the third can be interpreted as 'Tractate Avodah Zara'. However, the latter was definitely not been written by Maimonides, unless you imply that he managed to write it a centuries before he was born.

I have spent more than enough time trying to find the citations you claim are part of the Talmud. The Talmud is horribly borring so far. Since you claim that the Talmud contain this, go to the link above and show me where.

ETA: It is possible that this translation is not complete. In any case Maimonides could not have been part of the Talmud.

[Doctor Evil]

An interesting fact about Moses Ben Maimon (Maimonides). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

He studied medicine, and was claim to be the physician of Sultan Saladin of Egypt. He also treated Richard the Lionheart during the crusades. It seems he found great happiness in helping all men, irregardless of their faith. He is cited as writing After visiting the Sultan’s palace, he would arrive home exhausted and hungry, where “I would find the antechambers filled with gentiles and Jews ... I would go to heal them, and write prescriptions for their illnesses ... until the evening ... and I would be extremely weak.

[stilicho]

I just finished reading the first quarter of the Nesta Webster book recommended by SwingDangler and many of the (almost 900) endnotes. Far from being an eye-opening experience, it's simply another in a long series of rambling pseudo-histories produced by keen amateurs (of which the best known is Eustace Mullins). It's all about Freemasons, Jews, Templars and Assassins, and pretty harmless to anyone with a general knowledge of history.

To the unschooled, however, it may overwhelm the senses with an incoherent staccato of names, dates, and places. These are the people who will accept Webster's ramblings as factual.

[dudalb]

Swing continues to persist in his efforts to deny that Nesta Webster was an Anti Semite and a Nazi sympathizer despite massive evidence to the contrary. Please note that he totally ignores the evidence and instead quote mines some statement by Webster that is not overtly Anti Semite.
And he also persists in quoting cherry picked excerpts from the Talmud,probably cherry picked by Anti Semites to "Prove" how evil the Jews are .
And then he seems to applaud the Catholic Church banning the Talmud.
I repeat: He is either really really ignorant or stupid or is trying to hide his Anti Semitism.
Either way he is totally pathetic.

[dudalb]

I just finished reading the first quarter of the Nesta Webster book recommended by SwingDangler and many of the (almost 900) endnotes. Far from being an eye-opening experience, it's simply another in a long series of rambling pseudo-histories produced by keen amateurs (of which the best known is Eustace Mullins). It's all about Freemasons, Jews, Templars and Assassins, and pretty harmless to anyone with a general knowledge of history.

To the unschooled, however, it may overwhelm the senses with an incoherent staccato of names, dates, and places. These are the people who will accept Webster's ramblings as factual.

And I presume her Anti Semitism is pretty apparent?
Throwing a lot of names ,dates,and places at a reader is a prime tactic of Crackpot Historians.

[AkuManiMani]

What about the Church of Scientology, do they count?

They aren't very secret and their aspirations for world domination are quite overt.

[dudalb]

They aren't very secret and their aspirations for world domination are quite overt.

Yes, although there is a lot the upper echelons of the CO$ hide from the membership...like the ultimate secret..the whole Xenu and the Volcano saga.
You have to spend, I understand, around $100'000 bucks to get to that level.

[Drudgewire]

Yes, although there is a lot the upper echelons of the CO$ hide from the membership...like the ultimate secret..the whole Xenu and the Volcano saga.
You have to spend, I understand, around $100'000 bucks to get to that level.

In my less respectable days I used to sell it on the street for $35 a level. I'd be on the corner slinging OT's like they were candy. I'd be all "yo man, level two. I gotz that BOMB level two."

Trick is to get 'em hooked so they want more and more, then jack your rates up to a couple of grand once they hit level four. All the dealers with game knew how to play.

Come to think of it... that's exactly what they do too. Man, I was in the wrong racket. :mad:

[stilicho]

Swing continues to persist in his efforts to deny that Nesta Webster was an Anti Semite and a Nazi sympathizer despite massive evidence to the contrary. Please note that he totally ignores the evidence and instead quote mines some statement by Webster that is not overtly Anti Semite.
And he also persists in quoting cherry picked excerpts from the Talmud,probably cherry picked by Anti Semites to "Prove" how evil the Jews are .
And then he seems to applaud the Catholic Church banning the Talmud.
I repeat: He is either really really ignorant or stupid or is trying to hide his Anti Semitism.
Either way he is totally pathetic.
Here's a direct quotation from the book:

"But the time has come to ask: Is the Jew really the super-man we have
been taught to consider him? On examination we shall find that in the
present as in the past his talents are displayed principally along two
lines--financial and occult. Usurers in the Middle Ages, financiers
to-day, the Jews have always excelled in the making and manipulating of
wealth. And just as at the former period they were the great masters of
magic, so at the present time they are the masters of the almost
magical art of gaining control over the mind both of the individual and
of the public."

It may be found in the last chapter entitled "The Jewish Peril". To get to that part of the book, though, you have to wade through acres of nonsense about Scottish Freemasons escaping with "secrets" from the Battle of Bannockburn, the influence of obscure Egyptian "mysteries" on the Rosicrucians, and how Frederick the Great of Prussia was initiated into Freemasonry while traveling through the countryside of Braunschweg.

Is SwingDangler honestly suggesting that this is the product of an historian rather than of an obsessive loon?

[Doctor Evil]

Well, Swing, I do not seem to be able to find your citations. I did noticed that throwing accusations about the Talmud seems to be very common in antisemitic circles.

I did manage to find this beautiful quote in Sanhedrin 4,5:
לפיכך נברא אדם יחידי בעולם, ללמד שכל המאבד נפש אחת, מעלים עליו כאילו איבד עולם מלא; וכל המקיים נפש אחת, מעלים עליו כאילו קיים עולם מלא.
My very crude attempt to translate this is: "Therefore man is unique in the world, teaching that if one loses one soul he is said to have lost the whole world; and if one revives one soul, he is said to have saved the whole world."

Can I suggest you will take your racism and post somewhere else?

[stilicho]

Well, Swing, I do not seem to be able to find your citations. I did noticed that throwing accusations about the Talmud seems to be very common in antisemitic circles.
I was able to finish the whole of Nesta Webster's book this evening. It's not that long and available freely on the web.

Unlike what SwingDangler wants us to believe, the crescendo, climax, and conclusion of the book do not distinguish between "good" and "evil" Jews at all. There is heavy use of quotations from other individuals who've written similar books.

I am also curious why SwingDangler refers to Webster's book as a "novel". There is no disclaimer, no fictional characters, and no plot. It is structured almost identically to at least two other books I've read, including one by Eustace Mullins. (Reading this stuff is a waste of your time, but I wanted to respond to SwingDangler without having him claim that I couldn't comment on Webster without having read her book).

The quotation I used, from her book, in a prior post on this page is not referenced so I can only assume that it's her own words and her own opinion. The thesis of the work is that "the Jews" have used international finance, "pan-Germanism", "illuminism", the Freemasons, Bolshevism, and scores of other tools to destroy Christianity, spread immoral behaviour, and dominate the world. And, far from denying the validity of the "Protocols", she quotes from the known forgery to support her thesis.

Is this SwingDangler's thesis too?

[stilicho]

I was able to finish the whole of Nesta Webster's book this evening. It's not that long and available freely on the web.

Unlike what SwingDangler wants us to believe, the crescendo, climax, and conclusion of the book do not distinguish between "good" and "evil" Jews at all. There is heavy use of quotations from other individuals who've written similar books.

I am also curious why SwingDangler refers to Webster's book as a "novel". There is no disclaimer, no fictional characters, and no plot. It is structured almost identically to at least two other books I've read, including one by Eustace Mullins. (Reading this stuff is a waste of your time, but I wanted to respond to SwingDangler without having him claim that I couldn't comment on Webster without having read her book).

The quotation I used, from her book, in a prior post on this page is not referenced so I can only assume that it's her own words and her own opinion. The thesis of the work is that "the Jews" have used international finance, "pan-Germanism", "illuminism", the Freemasons, Bolshevism, and scores of other tools to destroy Christianity, spread immoral behaviour, and dominate the world. And, far from denying the validity of the "Protocols", she quotes from the known forgery to support her thesis.

Is this SwingDangler's thesis too?
I am still waiting for SwingDangler's replies to my questions about the Nesta Webster book I read at his recommendation. I hate having to reply to my own replies but SwingDangler made a few false statements about the book and I wanted to wait a couple of days until he picked up a copy, read it, and corrected his mistakes.

[Liberman]

The COS aren't secret as was stated they don't have much chance of taking over the world. Maybe Hollywood. I think people are dismissing groups far too easily as you don't know much about them so why would you think they're powerful or looking to get more control.

Many of the top politicians are members of these groups and they're the ones with the power to make these changes.