Norwegian girl kills herself after Scientology test.

[Ryokan]

Kaja Bordevich Ballo, aged 20, daughter of parliamentary representative Olav Gunnar Ballo, jumped out a window on the 3rd floor and killed herself after getting the results from a standard Scientology test march 28th this year.

When she was 13, she was admitted to a hospital because of an eating disorder. A year later, she was admitted again for the same reason.

March 28th she took a standard Scientology test, then went home and killed herself. She left behind a bag with a pair of trousers she had bought earlier that day, the results of her Scientology test that concluded she was unstable, depressed, irresponsible, hypercritical and lacked harmony and a note where she apologized for being such a failure.

Scientology claims another life.

[Safe-Keeper]

Incredibly sad.

[MG1962]

I can recall being roped into one of those tests when I was young. I was happy to go along with things till I heard money was involved. When I decided to leave, they became so aggressive I thought I was going to have to fight my way out of the place.

I;ve always thought of myself as being fairly emotionally tough - So how someone that is a little fragile handles the situation, I have no idea

[geni]

Scientology claims another life.

Questionable. Non scientologist with history of mental illness jumps out of window. Quite a few other posibilities here.

[Ryokan]

Questionable. No scientologist with history of mental illness jumps out of window. Quite a few other posibilities here.

She wasn't a Scientologist, she just took one of their tests, which probably confirmed, to her, what she thought of herself.

Forgot source in the OP. It's in Norwegian, though.

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2008/04/15/532571.html

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Questionable. No scientologist with history of mental illness jumps out of window. Quite a few other posibilities here.

Pardon? She was not a Scientologist. She was lied to by a scientologist who presumably claimed to have some expertise in the "science of the mind". :mad:

[Safe-Keeper]

If it happened as the papers describe it, scientology's messed up big time. You don't tell a person with a serious mental illness that she's a hopeless case. That's pretty much basic psychology there, and with Scientology's anti-psychiatric stance one would think they'd have some sort of skills at it themselves.

As for the source, Dagbladet is a redtop paper of dubious seriousness and a taste for scandals, so I'll withhold judgment until I get some info from a more serious source. Though unfortunately, it seems the serious sources are not publishing the story, possibly due to their policy to avoid publishing stories on suicides out of fear of copycat cases.

[geni]

Pardon? She was not a Scientologist. She was lied to by a scientologist who presumably claimed to have some expertise in the "science of the mind". :mad:

So? Perhaps she would have jumped out that window anyway.

[Safe-Keeper]

Yup, geni, perhaps she would, but when you tell someone with suicidal tendencies that she's a hopeless case, in my eyes you're responsible if that person harms herself. It's kinda like giving an alcoholic who's given up drinking a bottle of wine, with the result that he falls off the wagon. Maybe he'd have started drinking anyway, but that doesn't exactly clear you of responsiblity, does it?

[CFLarsen]

One for krelnik.

[geni]

Yup, geni, perhaps she would, but when you tell someone with suicidal tendencies that she's a hopeless case, in my eyes you're responsible if that person harms herself.

Why? Are there solid studies showing that this is likely to result in an increased suicide rate?

Did they even know that she had acutal suicidal tendencies.


It's kinda like giving an alcoholic who's given up drinking a bottle of wine, with the result that he falls off the wagon. Maybe he'd have started drinking anyway, but that doesn't exactly clear you of responsiblity, does it?

Depends are they over the age of 18? If they are then legaly it probably would.

[Pato2747]

This is really sad. If, instead of Scientology, she went to, say, a psychiatrist, she probably would have lived.

This gives me more than a reason to be in Project Chanology.

[RobRoy]

Yup, geni, perhaps she would, but when you tell someone with suicidal tendencies that she's a hopeless case, in my eyes you're responsible if that person harms herself. It's kinda like giving an alcoholic who's given up drinking a bottle of wine, with the result that he falls off the wagon. Maybe he'd have started drinking anyway, but that doesn't exactly clear you of responsiblity, does it?

Your analogy doesn't work. If they'd handed her the results and then opened a window for her, maybe. Of perhaps given her a loaded gun, or a fistful of pills. But they didn't say "hopeless case", did they? The OP didn't state that in the quote from the article. It sounded like their review of her was spot-on (interesting in itself, I'm curious what the test is based on). \

I don't think we can pin this to Scientology just because it's Scientology. There's a bias to do that, I understand, and want to lean in that direction myself. But, if someone a depressed girl with a self-image problem was told she was depressed and had a self-image problem by, well, anyone else, would they then be regarded as responsible for her suicide? Seems a tenuous connection at best, and the paper is actually rather irresponsible for making the link in the first place.

[CFLarsen]

If it happened as the papers describe it, scientology's messed up big time. You don't tell a person with a serious mental illness that she's a hopeless case. That's pretty much basic psychology there, and with Scientology's anti-psychiatric stance one would think they'd have some sort of skills at it themselves.

Ah, but you miss the point: Scientology didn't know that she had a record of mental illness. They just gave her the standard feed to anyone who takes the test, which is that "You are messed up and the only way you can be saved is to join Scientology".

They didn't know, and they didn't care to know. All they wanted was a new sheep.

As for the source, Dagbladet is a redtop paper of dubious seriousness and a taste for scandals, so I'll withhold judgment until I get some info from a more serious source. Though unfortunately, it seems the serious sources are not publishing the story, possibly due to their policy to avoid publishing stories on suicides out of fear of copycat cases.

What policy? Show evidence of this, please.

Either the girl took a Scientology test, left it behind with the suicide note - or she didn't.

[m0nngis]

What policy?
This one: Vær Varsom-plakaten (http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A6r_Varsom-plakaten)

The last revision softened the suicide clause considerably. You can read §4.9 before the 2006 revision here. (http://www.pfu.no/vvpl_popup.php?p=4.9&r=2000)

[supercorgi]

Questionable. Non scientologist with history of mental illness jumps out of window. Quite a few other posibilities here.

I have to agree with this. You can't imply that it was the cause. People with mental illness often have suicidal tendencies. This is no more meaningful in which those reports that Proszac use causes suicides. If you were ill enough in certain ways to cause you be prescribed anti-depressants, you may have been ill enough to think about suicide. I think Scientology is a horrible, manipulative, money-making scheme, but you can't blame it for everything. The point is that severely depressed people will contemplate suicide and some will carry it out.

[hgc]

When Tom Cruise drives past an accident, he has to do something - because he knows, as a Scientologist, he's the only one that can really help. I wonder what he would have done to help at the scene of this tragedy.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0

[Showmeproof]

As someone currently applying for their PhD in Clinical Psychology, stories like this get me furiated. Screw being open minded to all other types of religions and/or organization. Scientologists are idiots and are crazy :)

[Macoy]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/2633480551952234c.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=11780)

Here's what a true scientologist would do.

[hgc]

He's dreaming of the day when SPs will exist only in history books. Of course people will be jumping out of windows in droves -- and that's not just from watching Battlefield Earth.

[Rufo]

As someone currently applying for their PhD in Clinical Psychology, stories like this get me furiated. Screw being open minded to all other types of religions and/or organization. Scientologists are idiots and are crazy :)
Better idea - start thinking about what you're going to do when you have to help out an ex-scientologist who has gone through years of indoctrination to make him/her believe you and your kind are utterly evil. Hubbard was quite maliciously brilliant in that regard - he tabooed one of the things that can help people to see through his lies. If you're going to become a PhD in Clinical Psychology, it might be in your best interest to start considering ways to counter that.

[Showmeproof]

Better idea - start thinking about what you're going to do when you have to help out an ex-scientologist who has gone through years of indoctrination to make him/her believe you and your kind are utterly evil. Hubbard was quite maliciously brilliant in that regard - he tabooed one of the things that can help people to see through his lies. If you're going to become a PhD in Clinical Psychology, it might be in your best interest to start considering ways to counter that.


Thank you, oh wise one :)

It was just my way too vent, nothing more :)

[Macoy]

It's the eyes...

[hgc]

Better idea - start thinking about what you're going to do when you have to help out an ex-scientologist who has gone through years of indoctrination to make him/her believe you and your kind are utterly evil. Hubbard was quite maliciously brilliant in that regard - he tabooed one of the things that can help people to see through his lies. If you're going to become a PhD in Clinical Psychology, it might be in your best interest to start considering ways to counter that.


I would start with presenting the evidence that LRon was using numerous psychoactive medications at the time of his death. It's a double-edge sword, since he died a raving lunatic, downgrading the possible effectiveness of such medications, but then it helps to puncture the myth at its source.

[gtc]

Why? Are there solid studies showing that this is likely to result in an increased suicide rate?

I do not know, but I do know that psychologists and psychiatrists do not tell their patients that they are 'unstable, depressed, irresponsible, hypercritical and lacked harmony' and so on but are very careful to emphasise that their patients are not 'bad' people.

Now I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, so I do not know precisely what they do or do not say but I do know that they are evidence based sciences so it is safe to assume that they have solid studies showing the effects of the various ways of interacting with a patient.

Did they even know that she had acutal suicidal tendencies.

And yet they gave her counselling anyway. If they did not know, then they were enormously negligent.

Scientologists claim to be able to offer effective counselling; they are free to do so but they should also be held accountable for the effects of their actions.

[CFLarsen]

I have to agree with this. You can't imply that it was the cause. People with mental illness often have suicidal tendencies. This is no more meaningful in which those reports that Proszac use causes suicides. If you were ill enough in certain ways to cause you be prescribed anti-depressants, you may have been ill enough to think about suicide. I think Scientology is a horrible, manipulative, money-making scheme, but you can't blame it for everything. The point is that severely depressed people will contemplate suicide and some will carry it out.

Except in this case, the girl left the test telling her that she was a failure, with her suicide note where she apologized for being a failure.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/2633480551952234c.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=11780)

Here's what a true scientologist would do.

Now, there's a T-shirt design....


This one: Vær Varsom-plakaten (http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A6r_Varsom-plakaten)

The last revision softened the suicide clause considerably. You can read §4.9 before the 2006 revision here. (http://www.pfu.no/vvpl_popup.php?p=4.9&r=2000)

Thanks.

The earlier version:

Selvmord eller selvmordsforsøk skal som hovedregel ikke omtales.

Suicide or attempts of suicide shall as a rule not be reported.

Current version:

Vær varsom ved omtale av selvmord og selvmordsforsøk. Unngå omtale som ikke er nødvendig for å oppfylle allmenne informasjonsbehov. Unngå beskrivelse av metode eller andre forhold som kan bidra til å utløse flere selvmordshandlinger.

Be careful when mentioning suicide and attempts of suicide. Avoid mention of irrelevant things when fulfilling common information needs. Avoid describing method or other conditions which can lead to more acts of suicide.

I see no reason to think other news sources are not writing about this because of the method. Jumping out of a window is hardly something people don't know is a way of committing suicide. Furthermore, they could simply write she killed herself.

Better idea - start thinking about what you're going to do when you have to help out an ex-scientologist who has gone through years of indoctrination to make him/her believe you and your kind are utterly evil. Hubbard was quite maliciously brilliant in that regard - he tabooed one of the things that can help people to see through his lies. If you're going to become a PhD in Clinical Psychology, it might be in your best interest to start considering ways to counter that.

Read Dan Garvin's terrific account (http://skepticreport.com/newage/dangarvin.htm).

[AkuManiMani]

Kaja Bordevich Ballo, aged 20, daughter of parliamentary representative Olav Gunnar Ballo, jumped out a window on the 3rd floor and killed herself after getting the results from a standard Scientology test march 28th this year.

When she was 13, she was admitted to a hospital because of an eating disorder. A year later, she was admitted again for the same reason.

March 28th she took a standard Scientology test, then went home and killed herself. She left behind a bag with a pair of trousers she had bought earlier that day, the results of her Scientology test that concluded she was unstable, depressed, irresponsible, hypercritical and lacked harmony and a note where she apologized for being such a failure.

Scientology claims another life.

Scientology has been directly responsible for the deaths of numerous people and this girl ain't one of them. The result she got is pretty much the standard one given by scientologists to everyone they 'test' for the first time. Sounds to me like she was already suicidal and looking for an excuse to go thru with it; apparently she found what she was looking for.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/2633480551952234c.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=11780)

Here's what a true scientologist would do.

This post made me laugh tears... xD

[RobRoy]

Thank you, oh wise one :)

It was just my way too vent, nothing more :)

I'm with ya on this. Given your chosen career path, I'd be frustrated and angry with Scientology as well. They certainly don't help people who need real, professional, proven assistance with their problems. I'm a big fan of therapists, and I believe that in the main they do good work. Very good work. :wackynotworthy:

[Kilgore Trout]

Did they even know that she had acutal suicidal tendencies.

No way of knowing if she took the same personality test, but I wouldn't think Scientology had different ones. In any event, there are a few questions on suicide and depression in this test. (http://www.oca.scientology.org/oca.php) (Like this one: "113) Would it take a definite effort on your part to consider the subject of suicide?") But, of course, it depends how she answered.

[RobRoy]

No way of knowing if she took the same personality test, but I wouldn't think Scientology had different ones. In any event, there are a few questions on suicide and depression in this test. (http://www.oca.scientology.org/oca.php) (Like this one: "113) Would it take a definite effort on your part to consider the subject of suicide?") But, of course, it depends how she answered.

I'm curious if there is a way to "pass" the test and not need scientology's help.

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm curious if there is a way to "pass" the test and not need scientology's help.

I took it and all it did was direct me to the closest Org and offer to sell me a book. Perhaps that is their way of saying I failed. It was difficult to stomach, though, that's for sure. The way some questions are worded is maddening (like the one I quoted... Whose suicide? Just the idea? Can I answer with "no amount of effort would get me to consider my own suicide"?)

[RobRoy]

I took it and all it did was direct me to the closest Org and offer to sell me a book. Perhaps that is their way of saying I failed. It was difficult to stomach, though, that's for sure. The way some questions are worded is maddening (like the one I quoted... Whose suicide? Just the idea? Can I answer with "no amount of effort would get me to consider my own suicide"?)

Yeah, it's odd. Like, "Do you intend two or less children in your family even though your health and income will permit more?" What is this trying to get at? What's the Scientology view on children? Is it similar to the LDS one, in that you should have as many as you can?

[jsiv]

Police probe suicide linked to Scientologists (http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2371180.ece)


Come on though, everything seems to point at the test (administered by an apparent authority) being what finally pushed her over the edge.

Trying to pin the whole thing on them, though, is a bit of a stretch. They had no intention of driving her to suicide (well, at least not yet.)

[Eskarina]

Yeah, it's odd. Like, "Do you intend two or less children in your family even though your health and income will permit more?" What is this trying to get at? What's the Scientology view on children? Is it similar to the LDS one, in that you should have as many as you can?

This what Scientology thinks of children: :(

http://www.whyaretheydead.net/childabuse/index.html

[Moochie]

As much as I detest $cientology, I can't in good conscience sheet this sad event to it or its practitioners.

M.

[Kilgore Trout]

Yeah, it's odd. Like, "Do you intend two or less children in your family even though your health and income will permit more?" What is this trying to get at? What's the Scientology view on children? Is it similar to the LDS one, in that you should have as many as you can?

I think the answer they are going for is, "Yes, I'm healthy and wealthy, and have few children that will sap that wealth, so I'll have plenty for the church."

And, although I don't have a source, I believe the view of Scientology is few or no children at all. I'm not sure if that's an LRH-written rule (or mere suggestion) or just as a matter of course. Astra Woodcraft talks about it in this video interview. (http://xenutv.com/interviews/astra.htm) (Towards the end of part 5, though the whole interview, along with the interviews of her father and sister are well worth watching.)

[RobRoy]

I think the answer they are going for is, "Yes, I'm healthy and wealthy, and have few children that will sap that wealth, so I'll have plenty for the church."

That would make sense then. What was up with the questions about being put off by ambient noises?

And, although I don't have a source, I believe the view of Scientology is few or no children at all. I'm not sure if that's an LRH-written rule (or mere suggestion) or just as a matter of course. Astra Woodcraft talks about it in this video interview. (http://xenutv.com/interviews/astra.htm) (Towards the end of part 5, though the whole interview, along with the interviews of her father and sister are well worth watching.)

I'll have to take a look when I get home tonight.

[Eskarina]

I think the answer they are going for is, "Yes, I'm healthy and wealthy, and have few children that will sap that wealth, so I'll have plenty for the church."

And, although I don't have a source, I believe the view of Scientology is few or no children at all. I'm not sure if that's an LRH-written rule (or mere suggestion) or just as a matter of course. Astra Woodcraft talks about it in this video interview. (http://xenutv.com/interviews/astra.htm) (Towards the end of part 5, though the whole interview, along with the interviews of her father and sister are well worth watching.)

Hubbard considered children to be "thetans in small bodies", i.e. basically adults. (I'm still digging frantically to come up with the exact quote)

And members of the Sea Org (the "elitist" organisation of Scientology) who got pregnant were in the past (probably still are, but that is just my guess) coerced into having abortions as is testified by Mary Tabayoyon:

http://www.scientology-lies.com/marytabayoyon.html

And let's not forget the nauseating "Children's Sec Check":

http://members.chello.nl/mgormez/books/kaufman/isd-5i.htm

[Kilgore Trout]

That would make sense then. What was up with the questions about being put off by ambient noises?

To hazard a guess, there are probably several questions that are probably geared so that they can get a relatively normal person to have points that can be worked on with Scientology, like the ones on involuntary muscle twitches. Not getting enough magnesium? Maybe. Or it could be an engram or body thetan.

[Eskarina]

To hazard a guess, there are probably several questions that are probably geared so that they can get a relatively normal person to have points that can be worked on with Scientology, like the ones on involuntary muscle twitches. Not getting enough magnesium? Maybe. Or it could be an engram or body thetan.

The whole test is rigged, so the outcome will always be "There is a way Scientology can help you" (to hand over large amounts of money :eye-poppi). And you probably won't be told about body thetans in that early stage.

http://www.xenu.net/archive/oca/oca.html

Scientology preys on vulnerable people without, in the least, being equipped to handle their problems.

[thaiboxerken]

To be fair, the Scientologists probably didn't say she was without hope. But that the "technology" to cure her would cost more money than she could pay.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Why? Are there solid studies showing that this is likely to result in an increased suicide rate?

Did they even know that she had acutal suicidal tendencies.


they had just done an analysis of her "personality". One would think that should tell you something eh?

If it didn't show up then the test is absolutely worthless and is merely a carrot to force people to do what you want or its a true test in which case they just harassed a suicidal person into killing themselves.

not exactly a pretty picture, is it?

You won't recognize that last line - it is from the evaluation script that scientologists use .

[hgc]

To be fair, the Scientologists probably didn't say she was without hope. But that the "technology" to cure her would cost more money than she could pay.


No way. They don't give you sticker shock when you first walk into the showroom. It's a lease-to-buy arrangement, except that with continual new OT levels, you never quite get to own whatever nirvana they're selling.

[DrBaltar]

Did she get a Darwin Award?

[RobRoy]

Did she get a Darwin Award?

She hasn't "ensured the long-term survival of the human race by removing themselves from the gene pool in a sublimely idiotic fashion." She was just depressed with a poor self-image. Her story is just unfortunate and sad.

[Big Les]

I would start with presenting the evidence that LRon was using numerous psychoactive medications at the time of his death. It's a double-edge sword, since he died a raving lunatic, downgrading the possible effectiveness of such medications, but then it helps to puncture the myth at its source.

As I understand it, the drug in question was Vistaril, mostly used as an antihistamine. It's quite likely that he wasn't taking it for its psychoactive properties, hypocrite though he was in various ways.

And I have to agree that although the Scientology test COULD have been the trigger for this girl, you can't pin the blame on them any more than any other arbitrary trigger factor you could think of. They're reprehensible as an organisation, but a sense of perspective is needed here.

If you're a gamer or fan of violent movies, think of it this way - a tabloid blames a video game for triggering a spree killing/suicide. Do you blame the game/game developer/publisher?

[skeptifem]

Kaja Bordevich Ballo, aged 20, daughter of parliamentary representative Olav Gunnar Ballo, jumped out a window on the 3rd floor and killed herself after getting the results from a standard Scientology test march 28th this year.

When she was 13, she was admitted to a hospital because of an eating disorder. A year later, she was admitted again for the same reason.

March 28th she took a standard Scientology test, then went home and killed herself. She left behind a bag with a pair of trousers she had bought earlier that day, the results of her Scientology test that concluded she was unstable, depressed, irresponsible, hypercritical and lacked harmony and a note where she apologized for being such a failure.

Scientology claims another life.

eating disorders have the highest death rate of any mental illness, and plenty of the deaths are suicides.

even if the test was just too much to handle and was the final thing that made her decide to kill herself- if it wasnt that test it would have been something else. you have to be really unstable to be that close to killing yourself in the first place.

[Stout]

I can sure see something like this happening.

I was on vacation in Amsterdam in 1985 and I'd just walked out of one of those coffee shops when I was approached by this young hottie asking me if I would like to take a test and it would only take "a few minutes"

I thought...like wow man, sure, it'll be an experience ( and maybe I'll get me a piece of Dutch treat to boot). so I followed her upstairs to the testing room.

There were several people up there and it seemed like they were all waiting for me and very enthused that I'd come up. They handed me this huge fricken multiple choice booklet that was comprised of questions that required a considerable amount of mental effort to answer and when I got about half way through it it thought " [rule 10] this, I want to party some more" so I randomly checked off some boxes and handed in the test.

The hottie came back and chatted me up while my test was being "marked" but left as soon as the guy returned with the results..and a few of his buddies. They sat opposite me and produced a graph of my personality, telling me that these high points were good and well...BUT....look at these low points.

They zeroed in on those low points and tried to make me feel like a real looser.

Really, they tried hard, and had it not been for my faking half the answers, I might have just believed them ( I was 22 at the time )

They offered these books, very expensive books and insisted that i buy them immediately otherwise I was doomed to live my life as a looser. They wouldn't hear my complaints of travelling Europe by bicycle, and kept giving me the hard sell. I ended up slamming my open palm down hard on the table and taking a threatening stance demanding to be shown the door. Finally they complied and I left, very shaken.

Thing is, I didn't know anything about Scientology...nothing, zero and it wasn't until years later when I told someone this story and they asked if the books were written by L Ron Hubbard that that memory surfaced and I became aware of just who I was dealing with.

Based on those tactics, and the general ridiculousness of Scientology, I find it a .....errrrr...religion, that i want to keep well away from.

[TobiasTheViking]

I'm curious if there is a way to "pass" the test and not need scientology's help.

Yes.

I've worked with a woman who took one of their stress tests.... Now, this is a very special woman, always happy, always extremely cheerful, extremely trustful(in the sense that people easily trust her)

So, after she took the test, they asked her to be a lecturer for them.. She bought the dianetiks book and went home to read it.

Later the same day i met her, and she told me the story, overjoyed and all. I looked at the book, and told her matter of factly "ehm, that was scientology".

She became rather incensed, wanted to burn the book. I convinced her to give it to me though(always wanted one, but didn't wanna give them money.. The harm was done).

They phoned her a little later and she ripped them a new one for deceiving her.

So yes.. You can "pass" the test. The outcome is about the same though(still need to takes classes to become a teacher, or whatever they called it).

[RobRoy]

Yes.

I've worked with a woman who took one of their stress tests.... Now, this is a very special woman, always happy, always extremely cheerful, extremely trustful(in the sense that people easily trust her)

So, after she took the test, they asked her to be a lecturer for them.. She bought the dianetiks book and went home to read it.

Later the same day i met her, and she told me the story, overjoyed and all. I looked at the book, and told her matter of factly "ehm, that was scientology".

She became rather incensed, wanted to burn the book. I convinced her to give it to me though(always wanted one, but didn't wanna give them money.. The harm was done).

They phoned her a little later and she ripped them a new one for deceiving her.

So yes.. You can "pass" the test. The outcome is about the same though(still need to takes classes to become a teacher, or whatever they called it).

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.