Uproar over "Russsian Roulette" Stunt.

[a_unique_person]

Magician's deadly game
October 6, 2003 - 10:00AM

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A British magician apparently "played" a deadly game of Russian roulette with a loaded pistol on a television show today despite criticism the stunt could lead to copycats.

The show by self-styled "psychological illusionist" Derren Brown was broadcast on Channel Four television, which said there would be a slight tape delay so transmission could be quickly ended if he blew his head off.

Brown carried out his stunt in an unnamed foreign country, since handguns are illegal in Britain.

A volunteer, picked by Brown from 12,000 hopefuls, put a bullet in one of the gun's six chambers. Brown then said he was reading the volunteer's mind to determine where the bullet was before putting the gun to his head.

Twice Brown put the revolver to his head and squeezed the trigger. On the third shot the illusionist pointed the gun away and fired. The chamber was empty.

After several minutes of silent contemplation Brown fired at his head and then quickly fired the live round into a wall of sandbags.



Well, it had to be a trick, of course. But is it ethical?

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/06/1065292502963.html

[Garrette]

While I would not let my young children see this demonstration without some very heavy discussion with them before and after, I do not see this as unethical.

It is not the responsibility of any performer to save a viewer from himself.

---

It might be relevant to discuss what Brown's style is. His disclaimer about his 'powers' is not so clear cut as some in the skeptic community might deem appropriate. He admits to having no paranormal ability, but describes his act in such a manner that--while technically accurate--leads the less discerning audience member to think there is 'something' there.

This is, in fact, the basis of his act. He is an 'atmosphere' magician. (The term is mine, not his).

Frankly, I agree with his approach, and what little bit of 'performing' I do is along his lines of creating an aura and atmosphere.

/digression

[Jon_in_london]

Well, revolvers are illegal in the UK. So if any illegal gun-owners want to go ahead and give the chambers a spin...... well, thats just fine by me. The more the merrier in fact!!!

I watched it btw, it was very good. I wonder if he actually uses trickery or if he really did read the guy?

BTW- he pulled the trigger with the gun to his head twice- then chickened out and pulled the trigger with the gun aimed away but just a click. Then he did another one to his head and the last one- which he aimed away was the live one.
Bah! only 50%.

Last thing- While he was doing the trigger pulling, there was no music or lights or other shiznt. That added to the atmosphere hugely.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

BTW- he pulled the trigger with the gun to his head twice- then chickened out and pulled the trigger with the gun aimed away but just a click. Then he did another one to his head and the last one- which he aimed away was the live one.


Well, he had to make a show of it. Just standing there going click, click, click isn't nearly as effective.

[Liamo]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
I watched it btw, it was very good. I wonder if he actually uses trickery or if he really did read the guy?

Maybe it's not so much about reading the guy but rather conditioning him to pick one (or two!) specific chamber. After listening to Derren's instructions, and while the guy loaded the gun, I figured it would be no. 1 (my gf thought no. 5)... (ok, it's only a 1 one 6 chance of guessing correctly, but there are some clues).

The shield to hide the barrel was a very nice touch, especially as it was introduced a the last possible moment

Liam

[mummymonkey]

There are many ways the illusion could have been done. There is no way of knowing if the helper put anything in the gun. If he did it could have been an inert round.
I didn't tape it but I have the distinct impression that the 'money shot' took place just out of camera shot. (He held the gun at arms length for a very brief moment). So we didn't actually see the gun go off. We just heard a gun shot.
If anybody made a recording perhaps they could check if this is so or is it my memory playing tricks on me?

[Lothian]

Garrettte,

I disagree (mildly). He does give some mystery to his tricks however he makes it very clear that he does not uses psychic powers. Someone would have to ignore that clear statement to assume that he does have psychic ability, but I suppose you are right no matter how clear he makes it some people will not believe him and think he has powers he doesn't realise

The most impressive trick on the show was with the final 5 volunteers.

He lined up 6 differently coloured chairs then played Word association with the 5. When someone lost they had to pick any free chair and sit on it.
When the winner sat down there was an empty chair left. An envelope under the chair had Derren’s name in it.

Not content with that each of the other five chairs was then revealed to have an envelope with the name of the person sat in that chair. :eek:

He must have had a psychic insight :wink:

[Liamo]

Originally posted by mummymonkey
There are many ways the illusion could have been done. There is no way of knowing if the helper put anything in the gun. If he did it could have been an inert round.
I didn't tape it but I have the distinct impression that the 'money shot' took place just out of camera shot. (He held the gun at arms length for a very brief moment). So we didn't actually see the gun go off. We just heard a gun shot.
If anybody made a recording perhaps they could check if this is so or is it my memory playing tricks on me?
As far as I remember, the gun was fired immediately after the 4th 'click', leaving no time to cut to a different angle (and to avoid any extreme reaction from the loader?), and the gun seemed to go off (of course, no sparks/flames, just as you would expect).

Re: my last comment, of course it does not mean there was no trick beside suggestion; but as he does uses these techniques in some effects, it is very possible he would try to influence the loader while also relying on other methods.

[Peter S.]

Reminds me of a discussion a friend of mine had with Mike Caveny about David Copperfield's escape from the imploding building. My friend said, "Copperfield wasn't anywhere near that building when it blew up, right?", to which Caveny said, "What do you think?"

Whatever method he used, you can be sure it sure fire, (pun intended).

[cerberus]

Originally posted by mummymonkey
There are many ways the illusion could have been done. There is no way of knowing if the helper put anything in the gun. If he did it could have been an inert round.
I didn't tape it but I have the distinct impression that the 'money shot' took place just out of camera shot. (He held the gun at arms length for a very brief moment). So we didn't actually see the gun go off. We just heard a gun shot.
If anybody made a recording perhaps they could check if this is so or is it my memory playing tricks on me?

Just watched the final couple of minutes again - as you say the final shot is out of camera shot - but you do hear a bang, but you do see a puff of smoke coming back into camera shot. Also the camera shot then changes and you see the sand bag again at the far end of the room and there are now 2 streams of sand falling from it. A couple of minutes before there was just the one that was done by the firearms expert at the start.

Edited for spelling

[glee]

There was a sandbag (or similar) hanging up in the direction he pointed the gun.
Sadly we never saw what damage the bullet did.

I think Derren is very clever, and he also makes it completely clear he is not psychic.
In one of his illusions, he asked two advertising people to construct a poster. When they finished he revealed 'one he had done earlier', which was practically identical (both words and pictures). Then Derren showed a tape of the journey the advertisers made to the appointment. They passed all sorts of clues (both words and pictures) that would apply to the poster.
So he's a clever guy and a well-prepared illusionist.

[glee]

Originally posted by cerberus

Just watched the final couple of minutes again - as you say the final shot is out of camera shot - but you do hear a bang, but you do see a puff of smoke coming back into camera shot. Also the camera shot then changes and you see the sand bag again at the far end of the room and there are now 2 streams of sand falling from it. A couple of minutes before there was just the one that was done by the firearms expert at the start


Well there you go - memory is not 100% reliable. I could have sworn we didn't see the sandbag!

[Dazza]

I've just posted description of what i saw last night on a thread in the "general scepticism and the paranormal" section. Then I spotted this thread.

Never mind

Can I just add that however this was done it was done brilliantly?

As a non-magician, I don't know exactly what was done, but it was very convincing. It was also incredibly tense. Usually magic can be entertaining but never scary - you always know the magician is in control and is perfectly safe. This felt like we were watching someone risking his life. The production of the show was superb. No drumrolls to distract from the tension. No commentary.

As to whether its ethical or not - sure it is. There was nothing in the programme that trivialised what he was doing or which suggests that anyone could do it. It was shown after 9pm which is a 'watershed' in the UK which means that parents should be aware that it is not suitable for children, and the extreme nature of the content was trailed right at the outset.

[Matabiri]

There's a good article about Brown here: http://www.simonsingh.com/Derren_Brown_Article.html

[Garrette]

Lothian,

No problem with the disagreement. I perfectly understand his disclaimers, and think they're right on. They simply don't, and intentionally don't, make it slam-bam clear cut like:

"Everything I do tonight is a trick so stop believing it's anything more."

I'm glad they're not that way. I prefer the mysterious style myself. He explains his approach very clearly and quite eruditely and sometimes humorously crudely in his two books.

[Lothian]

Originally posted by Garrette
Lothian,

I prefer the mysterious style myself. He explains his approach very clearly and quite eruditely and sometimes humorously crudely in his two books. Two books !

I foresee early movement on the Xmas list front.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by cerberus


Just watched the final couple of minutes again - as you say the final shot is out of camera shot - but you do hear a bang, but you do see a puff of smoke coming back into camera shot. Also the camera shot then changes and you see the sand bag again at the far end of the room and there are now 2 streams of sand falling from it. A couple of minutes before there was just the one that was done by the firearms expert at the start.

Edited for spelling

Hmmm I wonder if this is a clue to the trickery (although I do thin khe is brilliant, he aint so stoopid as to put a loaded revolver to his head and pull the trigger), Notice the firearms expert couldnt get the revolver to hit the sandbag dead-centre? It isnt easy to aim a small arm. Derren seemed to hit the bag without even taking the trouble to aim properly. I'd guess he had a little remotely detonated firework hidden in the sack....

Nevertheless or whatever he did, It was DAMNED good entertainment!!!!

[Ed]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Well, revolvers are illegal in the UK. So if any illegal gun-owners want to go ahead and give the chambers a spin...... well, thats just fine by me. The more the merrier in fact!!!


Jon, are you suggesting that the penalty for illeagel gun ownership should be death?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Ed


Jon, are you suggesting that the penalty for illeagel gun ownership should be death?

Well, if its self inflicted.............. :D

Actually yes I do. Ownership of an illegal firearm is tantamount to conspiracy to commit murder.

Illegal gun ownership is the reason law-abiding citizens have to jump through hoops in order to possess one........

[magicflute]

I have a video that must be close to 20 years old of Larry Becker performing "Russian Roulette" stunt! He added a couple of twists but basicaly the same thing.
:bgrin:

[severin]

He did do it pretty well, even though there was no way his life was ever in danger.

The trouble with acts like his is that it's impossible to tell what he is really doing by sleight of hand and by being very good at reading people, and how much is set-up with lots of assistants, hidden cameras and microphones etc.

It was interesting that the final five people he chose out of a hundred as the group to pick the gun loader from were all male - is this because men are more easy to read or manipulate? But then, he probably would have predicted they would all be male as he knew exactly the type he was looking for.

At least there was skill and style and showmanship involved here - not like just sitting in a box pretending to starve to death.

[richardm]

The stunt was done in Jersey, and the Jersey police are a bunch of spoilsports :mad:

Superintendent John Pearson said Jersey police were informed of the stunt before it took place.

However, having examined how the stunt would work, they were satisfied it would not break any of the island's gun laws.

Asked if he had been concerned that somebody was going to fire a loaded gun at their head, he said: "If what was portrayed on TV was going to happen, then we did have concerns.

"So a senior officer contacted Channel 4 and then we found out.

"We were absolutely satisfied that, firstly, there would no offences committed in Jersey in relation to any laws at all and secondly, that no-one was in any danger whatsoever."

Mr Pearson said that to hold a firearm "that could fire a lethal shot" on the island would have required a licence and the programme makers did not have a licence.

Asked whether that meant it was not a real gun, he said: "It is not for me to go into the intricacies of what Channel 4 did to make this programme.

"All I can reassure you is that we are entirely satisfied that no offences were committed."



I should think that Derren Brown and his team are a bit annoyed about that.

Full story. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3169388.stm)

[reprise]

For Aussie viewers, Derren Brown's Mind Control series premieres on the Nine network at 10:30pm AEST tonight.

[Stevie -G-]

I don't think that I am easily tricked (although I could be wrong), and am aware of some of the psychological techniques Derren Brown uses. I have also been to see him perform live.

Every ounce of me says that what he did was genuine. He has "guessed" numbers correctly on a huge number of occasions, and although he does not always perform perfectly when he performs live, he is good enough for me to believe his Russian roulette was genuine, with a real bullet.

Two of the techniques he uses to make his "guesses" include:

Reading small movements in the lips, neck, and other parts of the face when the subject is saying that word over and over in their head - I suppose it is natural that when you say a word in your head, you also make some movements that you would make when saying it out loud. It was notable that he asked his subject to do this for the Russian roulette, and paid very close attention to his face when the subject repeated it.

When the subject counts out loud, there can also be tell-tale signs, such as hesitations, emphasis on some words, etc. If you listen back to this occasion, you can sense a relaxation on "3,4,5,6", suggesting the bullet was in chambers 1 or 2.

So, I think DB guessed it was in 1 or 2, and so safely started with chamber 3. He also said out loud, several times "I believe chamber 3 is safe". I think he did this as an extra safety check. The guy who loaded the bullet was probably instructed beforehand to intervene at this stage if DB had guessed wrong. DB said on a radio interview that he would rather face humilitation than death, and so was prepared to withdraw if he wasn't 100%confident.

Having had this unspoken confirmation, I think the rest of the show was choreographed to maximise the effect. He shot the empty chamber toward the sand bag to trick the audience into thinking that he wasn't sure, and build up the tension more. The look of fear on his face looked genuine at the time, but perhaps not. The 2-minute pause was also done for effect.

I think he is an incredibly impressive performer, and that he does not trick his audience - he is just extremely skilled at what he does.

It was brilliant, terrifying TV.

Stevie G.

[Agammamon]

Was it ethical (to get back to the topic)? Sure, I can't be responsible for every numbnut who tries to copy me but doesn't have the intelligence to do it right. As a matter of fact I would say the guy is doing a public service, helping to rid the world of people with so little critical reasoning ability that they would try to copycat (and before you ask, yes I extend this judgement even unto the little children and the parents who failed to educate them).
A bit harsh? Certainly, but don't take this to mean that I'm bloodthirsty and hope that people die. I just don't agree with the biblical maxim "I am my brothers keeper". You are responsible for what you do not me reagardless of what I do. If I jump of a cliff and you jump after me, it's not my fault that you're lying on the canyon floor, broken. Short of direct exhortations, a person should not be held responsible for the actions of another.

[mummymonkey]

Originally posted by Stevie -G-
Every ounce of me says that what he did was genuine. He has "guessed" numbers correctly on a huge number of occasions, and although he does not always perform perfectly when he performs live, he is good enough for me to believe his Russian roulette was genuine, with a real bullet.
I have some beans for sale. These are magic beans...

[severin]

Oooh, magic beans. Can I have some? I swapped my cow for some a couple of weeks ago but they don't seem to be working. I think they're broken.

I don't think DB should be held responsible for the 'moral' content of what he did. While kiddies need to be protected, I don't want to live in a nannie state that controls what I can watch. The show was on after 9pm (the watershed) so any parents letting small kids watch it have only themselves to blame. As for older people, if someone is dumb enough to copy the stunt, they are the type of person who would do something incredibly stupid anyway and then try to blame someone else after (if they're still alive).

If you watched Titus Andronicus and then went out and slaughtered a load of people, would Shakespeare be banned? OK, I know there are issues with guns, but knee-jerk reactions are not going to solve anything.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by severin

If you watched Titus Andronicus and then went out and slaughtered a load of people, would Shakespeare be banned? OK, I know there are issues with guns, but knee-jerk reactions are not going to solve anything.

As was said somewhere else, whats the big diff between this and the old "put the tart in a box and saw her in half" trick? I mean, if people are actually going to saw each other in half because they saw that on a magic show Ill resign from the human race altogether!

[glee]

Originally posted by Stevie -G-
I don't think that I am easily tricked (although I could be wrong), and am aware of some of the psychological techniques Derren Brown uses. I have also been to see him perform live.

Every ounce of me says that what he did was genuine. He has "guessed" numbers correctly on a huge number of occasions, and although he does not always perform perfectly when he performs live, he is good enough for me to believe his Russian roulette was genuine, with a real bullet.

Two of the techniques he uses to make his "guesses" include:

Reading small movements in the lips, neck, and other parts of the face when the subject is saying that word over and over in their head - I suppose it is natural that when you say a word in your head, you also make some movements that you would make when saying it out loud. It was notable that he asked his subject to do this for the Russian roulette, and paid very close attention to his face when the subject repeated it.

When the subject counts out loud, there can also be tell-tale signs, such as hesitations, emphasis on some words, etc. If you listen back to this occasion, you can sense a relaxation on "3,4,5,6", suggesting the bullet was in chambers 1 or 2.

So, I think DB guessed it was in 1 or 2, and so safely started with chamber 3. He also said out loud, several times "I believe chamber 3 is safe". I think he did this as an extra safety check. The guy who loaded the bullet was probably instructed beforehand to intervene at this stage if DB had guessed wrong. DB said on a radio interview that he would rather face humilitation than death, and so was prepared to withdraw if he wasn't 100%confident.

Having had this unspoken confirmation, I think the rest of the show was choreographed to maximise the effect. He shot the empty chamber toward the sand bag to trick the audience into thinking that he wasn't sure, and build up the tension more. The look of fear on his face looked genuine at the time, but perhaps not. The 2-minute pause was also done for effect.

I think he is an incredibly impressive performer, and that he does not trick his audience - he is just extremely skilled at what he does.

It was brilliant, terrifying TV.

Stevie G.

I agree that Derren is an excellent illusionist.
However I don't believe he really played Russian Roulette, and neither does richardm, who provided that helpful link showing the police licensed Derren because "no-one was in any danger whatsoever."

[severin]

I watched the last part of the show again tonight and when DB was talking the bloke through what he had to do, he did say ONE quite a few times. For example "I want you to choose ONE number". The trouble is, the more you watch it, the more you wonder just how much trickery there was - was the bloke loading the gun an actor?

I read in the paper today that 3.3 million watched the show (not bad for UK terrestrial TV) and only four people complained to the channel. Most of the fuss has been generated by journalists (suprise).

[Liamo]

Originally posted by severin
I watched the last part of the show again tonight and when DB was talking the bloke through what he had to do, he did say ONE quite a few times. For example "I want you to choose ONE number". The trouble is, the more you watch it, the more you wonder just how much trickery there was - was the bloke loading the gun an actor?
Excerpt from the transcript:


[...]
If it f**ks up it's not your fault, alright?

Pick up the gun.

Put the gun under the table.

Can you see the numbers?

(Yes)

OK. Move it around a bit, familiarise yourself with the numbers, make sure you can see them clearly.

I want you to choose one of those numbers, you keep that number to yourself, but have a look at them now, and choose one. This number you choose now, it doesn't matter which one it is, you can change your mind as many times as you like, but you make that decision for me and you settle on a number.

Are you thinking of one now?

(Yup).

Alright. You need to repeat that number to yourself over and over again quietly in your head. Fix that number in your mind.

Pick up the bullet.

[...]


The thing is, we know he uses suggestion in some tricks, in the stone-paper-scissors one, or when he guesses what letter someone is thinking of. However, he also misdirects the viewer, as JamesM pointed out in the other Russian Roulette thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28148), so there is no way to know what really happened.

I think he does use suggestion but also relies on other methods to be on the safe side (e.g. a fake gun); an example would be the "watch under the cup" trick where he appears to use the same technique as in stone-paper-scissors to suggest "cup 2", but the guy actually puts the watch under cup 1 and DB still finds it. In the case of the Russian Roulette, there was probably no risk involved, but if there was, it would still have 'worked'.

Liam

[severin]

We didn't actually see the bullet going into the gun either. There are so many ways the trick could have been done. I know magicians never reveal how they do their tricks, but I would love to know how he did it.

[TwoShanks]

I honestly don't think it matters whether he was in danger at all. All that matters to me is that for a ten minute period I was fascinated, entertained, and completely enthralled by the trick. It was a superb piece of showmanship, the most gripping television I've seen in many years.

I doubt he was ever in any real danger, but for just a few minutes it was believable and I was mystified, amazed and entertained.

And that's what magic is all about, isn't it?

[severin]

But I hate not knowing!!

If the man who loaded the gun was an actor and he didn't put a live round in, that would be disappointing as the skill would then not be DB's.

[Tesserat]

I can think of at least one technique that I'd use if I had to perform the same trick. It'd be completely foolproof, wouldn't use a stooge, and I'd never be in danger.

I don't believe for an instant that Derren Brown used a technique where he'd have to rely on influencing the person from the audience. And to rely on reading the volunteer's involunatry muscle movements would be suicidal.

Nope, great theatre, but a safe trick.

[Lavie Enrose]

Originally posted by magicflute
I have a video that must be close to 20 years old of Larry Becker performing "Russian Roulette" stunt! He added a couple of twists but basicaly the same thing.
:bgrin:

I have a tape of a magician doing the Russian Roulette performance, and I think it might be the same person; Larry Becker. I'll have to do some digging through my video tapes to find out.

This piece of Russian Roulette magic has been around for a long time. Maybe as long as The Bullet Catch has. However, if performed well, it is still a great piece of magic.

To answer a_unique_person's question about the performance being unethical or not: my opinion would be it is unethical only if the performer did not take every precaution to ensure it was done abolutetly safely. There is no drama without danger, but there must only be danger in the minds of the audience members; never for real.