Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement

[CFLarsen]

I have received an image of the purported notarized agreement from Yellow Bamboo.

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yelbamb.jpg

I have cut away the surroundings - the letter was placed on a bed with a quilt.

There are several clues as to why I think this is a hoax.

I have never - ever - seen anybody sign his last name with caps only. I am also very suspicious of the very immature way the signature is made.

I find the fact that Randi's signature is found at the start of a page odd.

I also question why we should see the "WAIVER OF LIABILITY" clause, but that might be a minor point.

The most damaging fact is that, despite the call for verifiable evidence, it is impossible to read the name of the notary, or any of the text. Therefore, we don't know how the initial try-out (it wasn't a formal test) was supposed to happen.

I cannot imagine the Yellow Bamboo people not looking at the image, before they sent it to me by email.

A curious fact: The mail was sent with IMP Webmail Client, which is not something you would use if you were a technological newbie (YB has indicated a low knowledge of technology).

This, combined with the points of disagreement made by Randi, as well as the useless video, and the extremely quick way they claimed that they had passed the test (and won the million), makes me strongly suspect this is a hoax. Anyone who were sure they had won a million dollars fairly, would take the time and effort to present their case much better.

This stinks to high heaven.

[Brown]

I reserve judgment on the question of whether this is a hoax, but I note that there are a couple of other odd things.

First, one of the pages is partially obscured: the top is obscured by the envelope and the bottom is obscured by a second page placed over the first.

Second, the second page has a grey band across the top, suggesting that it may be a black-and-white photocopy. (A4 paper is longer than 8.5-by-11 inch paper used in the states.) And yet, at least one signature is in color.

[Brown]

I add that it is possible to read some of the text under the "WAIVER OF LIABILITY" section. I believe I can read at least 90 percent of it. What is not clear to me, however, is what bearing this has on Yellow Bamboo's claims.

[NoZed Avenger]

Is it me, or do the fonts not match on the different pages?

N/A

Edited to add: It's not me.

[ceo_esq]

I can hardly make any of this out from the picture, but the Florida notarial stamp seems consistent with real Florida notarial stamps. An embossing stamp does not appear to have been used along with the rubber stamp, which is also consistent with Florida notarial practice. Finally, I note that the venue notation "State of Florida, County of Broward" - all on a single line rather than two as you commonly see in many states - is also consistent with Florida practice.

If we could make out the notary's name just a little bit better, or get the commission number, we could cross-check the online Florida notarial registry. I considered looking through the registry for names that seem close to the signature, but given that there are hundreds of registered notaries in the JREF's zip code alone, I quickly discarded that idea.

I have some familiarity with notarization/apostille practices in U.S. consulates, and have examined several documents notarized by U.S. consular officers abroad. Usually, in my experience, an embossing stamp is used as well as a rubber stamp (which seems not to be the case with the Yellow Bamboo letter), but I suspect that the practice varies from consulate to consulate.

The consular officer named in this letter (Andrew F. Toth) is in fact the U.S. consular agent in Bali, for what that's worth.

[CFLarsen]

Brown,

You can read that? What does it say?

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Brown,

You can read that? What does it say? I read it as follows:WAIVER OF LIABILITY

Mr. Joko Tri agrees that the management of Bambu Kuning (Yellow Bamboo) Society, through Alvin G. Donovan III, will not be responsible for any damages to his person resulting directly from any special ability exhibited by Mr. N_________ S ________ exerting his claimed powers at a distance, as described in the attachment headed, "Yellow Bamboo demonstration". This excludes any chemical, physical, or other influences or forces, projectiles, weapons, or other such intervention that might be applied against Mr. Joko Tri. Mr. Joko Tri will not be touched in any way, nor interfered with in the process of attacking Mr. S________, and is not required to actually contact Mr. S_______ except by attempting to gently tap him with a piece of bamboo, since the claim is that he - Mr. Joko Tri - will be knocked down solely by Mr. S______'s use of "the energy of Yellow Bamboo," which does not involve any physical contact. If Mr. Joko Tri cannot tap Mr. S______ with the bamboo due to Mr. S______'s movements to avoid that action, and Mr. Joko Tri is not knocked down solely by “the energy of Yellow Bamboo” within a 10-minute time interval, the test will be terminated.EDITED TO ADD:

I gather from the other thread that the first proper name is Joko Tri, so I've inserted it throughout (I initially read it as "Jaka Tit", and decided to go with J___ T__ instead).

[Brown]

My reading of the "WAIVER OF LIABILITY" is basically consistent with that of ceo_esq.

I am unable to read virtually anything else, however. There is a typewritten paragraph that seems to end with the words "James Randi" and includes the word "Please" at a couple of sites. I am, however, unable to read the paragraph.

It would be odd indeed if this were to be the entire contents of the envelope. The "WAIVER OF LIABILITY" makes a clear mention of an "attachment," which is not shown. Also, there would ordinarily be a cover letter of some kind accompanying the materials, but I cannot say whether Mr. Randi's practice is to include a cover letter.

[ceo_esq]

I read the other paragraph as follows:Please be advised that several [claimants?] have suffered great personal embarrassment after [taking? failing?] these tests. I strongly advise you to conduct proper double-blind tests of any ability you believe you can [demonstrate?], before attempting to undergo a __________ for the prize. This has [saved?] me and [many?] claimants much time and work, by showing that the powers were ________ imaginary on the part of the would-be claimant. [Please do this?], and __ not _______ to ignore the need for such a precaution.

- James Randi

[uneasy]

As I mentioned in another thread. I don't think JREF has done a good job communicating what has gone on in the YB matter.

Of the two parties involved, one is a group of people in yellow shirts who run around screaming and falling down, and the other is a man most of us admire for his rational thinking. And yet, JREF only gives us a few sentences per week to figure out what happened. In an effort to find out what transpired, we have to resort to analyzing fuzzy pictures provided by the screaming, falling down people. ??? It doesn't make sense to me.

[T'ai Chi]

There are several clues as to why I think this is a hoax.


It is possible, of course, that you are correct and it is a hoax, but I think you are jumping the gun here.


I have never - ever - seen anybody sign his last name with caps only. I am also very suspicious of the very immature way the signature is made.


I have seen the former, and in my opinion the latter is a pretty absurd thing to say.

Are you claiming that you can rate the maturity of a person based on their signature? You should apply for the 1 Million Claus, really. Sheesh.


I find the fact that Randi's signature is found at the start of a page odd.


The document was longer than one page and printed from a web-browser. Stuff like that happens all the time.


The most damaging fact is that, despite the call for verifiable evidence, it is impossible to read the name of the notary, or any of the text. Therefore, we don't know how the initial try-out (it wasn't a formal test) was supposed to happen.


I agree. Hey, why don't you ask Randi for a copy?


A curious fact: The mail was sent with IMP Webmail Client, which is not something you would use if you were a technological newbie


Why would you think that??

[arcticpenguin]

On the page with Randi's alleged signature, I can find no mention of Joko Tri. Randi has already stated that he had negotiations with Yellow Bamboo, which might explain why there is a form with Randi's signature on it. He said Joko Tri's trip was not in official representation of JREF.

The only mention of Joko Tri is in the liability waiver, which is on a separate page, and we haven't even been shown any signatures on that page.

I also see some odd effects around Randi's signature, but I can't tell if it's just JPEG artifacts.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
It is possible, of course, that you are correct and it is a hoax, but I think you are jumping the gun here.

If you read what I actually wrote, instead of inventing things, you would have seen that I specifically say "I think". I say "I question". "I suspect".

I have not decided if this is, indeed, a hoax. Stop attributing opinions to me that I don't have.

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I have seen the former, and in my opinion the latter is a pretty absurd thing to say.

Are you claiming that you can rate the maturity of a person based on their signature? You should apply for the 1 Million Claus, really. Sheesh.

Again, stop attributing opinions to me that I don't have. I specifically say "I am also very suspicious".

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
The document was longer than one page and printed from a web-browser. Stuff like that happens all the time.

How do you know it was printed from a web browser??

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I agree. Hey, why don't you ask Randi for a copy?

Randi has stated that he will - in his own time - say what he has to say.

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
Why would you think that??

It just strikes me as odd. In my almost two decades of working as a computer professional, most of the time dealing with user interactivity and usability issues, I find that the vast majority of newbies stick to the beaten path. They are very unsure of trying things like that.

I would appreciate if you could address my questions. You are quickly developing a habit of avoiding them, and not just from me.

[Brown]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
I have not decided if this is, indeed, a hoax. Claus's remarks seemed pretty clear to me. I too withheld judgment on the question of whether this is a hoax, but there were (and as of this writing, still are) some things about this that are rather fishy.

It is possible that the final paragraph of the document is the same as the final paragraph appearing on the challenge web page. (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html) In addition, some of the language seems to be consistent with public statements issued by Mr. Randi. Nevertheless, things are still not quite right. For one thing, it does not appear that this photo shows all of the documentation.

[Patricio Elicer]

IMO, it's quite clear that this is a hoax intended to mislead people into thinking that yellowbamboo has passed the Preliminary Test.

It was consciously set up to leave the impression that Randi effectively signed the "Waiver of Liability" which states the conditions for the preliminary test.

It's clear that the "Waiver of Liability" and Randi's signature are in different sheets, they are not part of the same document. One sheet is smaller than the other, and the fonts are different as well.

Let's not forget that Randi said in his last commentary that both parts had come to an agreement on the protocol for the test. So yellowbamboo may very well have taken Randi's signature and the envelope of the said protocol document out of context, to leave the wrong impression.

If this is the case, then yellowbamboo has already shown their dirty intentions.

But I may be wrong,... let's wait for what Randi has to say about it.

[ImpyTimpy]

How is the waiver a contract for the actual preliminary test? A waiver is just that - a waiver... I see no mention of preliminary testing in that waiver, I just see a document protecting everyone's butts.

[Zep]

It's VERY fishy to me, but then on another thread I believe I have determined that this Alvin Donovan III guy is not exactly the most honest and up-front person, and it is thus even possible that the actual Yellow Bamboo organisation may not be involved in any way, shape or form in this exercise.

For example, since when does Alvin Donovan III get to be a signatory for Yellow Bamboo, when he has told us previously that "he was just helping out a friend" by posting the claims on the web? Can't Mr Serengen, a Balinese government official (or possibly a schoolteacher) actually write and sign for himself?

The longer this goes on, the more I'm convinced that Alvin, with the possible help of an Australian and some Balinese associates, is simply trying to pull a fast one for a million bucks.

[Blue Monk]

Big deal.

I would expect that if Yellow Bamboo wanted to offer proof of a contract between themselves and Randi they should at least post a document (besides being legible and complete) where they and Randi are the principles.

This is a waiver of liability and is merely an agreement between Yellow Bambo and Mr. Joko Tri.

I do believe now the Mr. Joko Tri agreed not to sue them unless they shoot, gas or electrocute him despite the fact that portions of the the initial page have been deliberaty obscured and we only have their word that the signature page goes with the waiver.

OK, we have Mr. Joko Tri's waiver of liability. How about posting this so-called contract with Randi now.

[Pyrrho]

Compare the signature to Randi's signature on the Commentary page. Any doofus with an image-editing program could use that to trick up a signature on a scanned document.

If this gets any more amateurish, I swear someone's gonna hit the gong.

[T'ai Chi]

Someone said:


There are several clues as to why I think this is a hoax.


and


, makes me strongly suspect this is a hoax.


My comments that person jumping the gun, was not that he, without a doubt, is claiming it is a hoax. My comments on jumping the gun was providing 'analysis' on why it might be a hoax, and for saying he strongly suspects it is, and that there are "several clues". I don't think there is much solid evidence to go by from this letter. Seems pretty wishy-washy of an analysis in terms of the lack of evidence.

Oops. That should have been: "word-processor", not "web-browser".

I am still wondering about this:


I am also very suspicious of the very immature way the signature is made.


Could anyone tell us how one can tell maturity or lack of, in an adult, from a signature? This can be easily tested, if in fact, that is a person's claim.

[CFLarsen]

T'ai Chi,

I have answered your questions, not just here, but in other threads as well. Now please answer mine:

How do you know it was printed from a web browser?

[uneasy]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
The document was longer than one page and printed from a web-browser. Stuff like that happens all the time.
Originally posted by CFLarsen
How do you know it was printed from a web browser??
Originally posted by T'ai Chi
Oops. That should have been: "word-processor", not "web-browser".
Originally posted by CFLarsen
How do you know it was printed from a web browser?

Congratulations to the both of you.

[Checkmite]

This document is meaningless. On the Commentary, Randi indicates that a protocol for a prelim test was drafted and agreed to, but that Yellow Bamboo tried to change conditions after the fact. The "video" we're given demonstrates that the conditions of the test did not match those outlines in the "waiver". Thus, the waiver's legitimacy is a non-issue - whether it is real or forged has no bearing on Yellow Bamboo's claim.

[Rolfe]

I think Patricio's right.

While it's not impossible that the entire thing could be fabricated (Randi's signature isn't exactly a state secret), ceo-esq has some good points regarding the apparent authenticity of the last page, the one we can pretty much see all of. The envelope looks genuine too. However, the envelope just demonstrates that something was received by Alvin Donovan from the JREF, and since the last page contains only the signatures and stamps but no actual text of whatever agreement it referred to, it doesn't prove a lot.

The last page looks very like the end of the standard application form for a preliminary test, very similar to the form appearing on the web page at www.randi.org/research/challenge.html. I don't think it's been printed directly from that, but I'll bet it is the last page of a properly notarised preliminary application, and that may be what was in the envelope pictured in the first place. We do know that such an application was indeed made at one time, so that's no surprise.

The middle page could be wholly fabricated, but in fact the wording is quite similar to what Randi says Joko Tri was instructed to do, so maybe there were such instructions in writing.

I think they've shuffled up bits of two different documents as a window-dressing job. Amateurish. Anyone who was genuine would have photographed each page in its entireity, separately and legibly.

I really can't see that anyone could regard this as a serious attempt to blag their way to the million bucks. It's just too silly. I think it's just a publicity stunt, plus people getting off on having everybody talking about them.

I think Randi's probably enjoying dragging out the story and having people who really need to get a life making speculations on the Forum and so on.

Rolfe.

[yellowbamboo]

TO make thigns simple and to have to post only once I thought to make it easy for everyone and put just the signature page
of randi.

The contract is simply downloaded from the internet. It was not changed in any way it was his standard agreeemtn.

I HAD thought the only question was if he had signed an actual contract or not?




I find the fact that Randi's signature is found at the start of a page odd.


Well if you want we could do a overview pic of all the docs
and then a close up of the notary page.

But I have understoond randi has now admitted to signing the contract- or has he not?



I also question why we should see the "WAIVER OF LIABILITY" clause, but that might be a minor point.


Simply because randi claimes it was part of the agreement
and we thought people might like to read it.

The most damaging fact is that, despite the call for verifiable evidence, it is impossible to read the name of the notary, or any of the text. Therefore, we don't know how the initial try-out (it wasn't a formal test) was supposed to happen.


Where in ANY of the documents does it say initial try out?
This is clearly a prliminary test or wehatever it says on the
doc/

Would it make it easier to do a close up of the notarized page?


I cannot imagine the Yellow Bamboo people not looking at the image, before they sent it to me by email.

A curious fact: The mail was sent with IMP Webmail Client, which is not something you would use if you were a technological newbie (YB has indicated a low knowledge of technology).


I dont know what thats about but we usedan older digital camera
and emailed it from our normal email account which comes with the website maintained in usa.


We are happy to resend maybe if you would do the courtesty of asking for it the exact weay you want instead of condemning it after the fact would make is simpler.

BTW- none of your comments changes the fact that Joko DID
get knocked down without getting touched as he has testified and the journalist witness has verified.

YBS

[yellowbamboo]

[/b]

I agree. Hey, why don't you ask Randi for a copy?

[/b]


At the risk of being simplistic that would be a good idea, then you could criticise him :-)

YBS

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
The contract is simply downloaded from the internet.


I knew I shouldn't have changed my initial "web-browser" to "word-processor"! Dangit dangit dangit! :)

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo

BTW- none of your comments changes the fact that Joko DID
get knocked down without getting touched as he has testified and the journalist witness has verified.

YBS
And you have provided absolutely no evidence that Mr. Tri was acting as an official representative of the JREF when he was knocked down or that it was as part of an official preliminary test for the $1M.

You were asked for evidence, you provided crap. The video doesn't hold up well either, which is dealt with in other threads.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
TO make thigns simple and to have to post only once I thought to make it easy for everyone and put just the signature page of randi.

The contract is simply downloaded from the internet. It was not changed in any way it was his standard agreeemtn.

From where did you download it from? Precise URL, please.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
I HAD thought the only question was if he had signed an actual contract or not?

Oh, no. You don't get off that easy. Each and every aspect of this will be investigated thoroughly. Don't expect to show us a piece of paper and walk away with a million bucks.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Well if you want we could do a overview pic of all the docs and then a close up of the notary page.

No, I would like this:

A picture of each page, so the text and signatures can be easily read. Also, I would like a close-up of the envelope, as well as a close-up of the signature.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
But I have understoond randi has now admitted to signing the contract- or has he not?

Where does he admit that? Do not ask us to provide evidence of your claims, please.

What contract did he admit to signing? What was the content?

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Simply because randi claimes it was part of the agreement and we thought people might like to read it.

I am amazed that you thought people might not like to read what the terms would be instead.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Where in ANY of the documents does it say initial try out? This is clearly a prliminary test or wehatever it says on the
doc/

"Whatever it says"?? Don't you even know what is in the document??

It is impossible for us to determine what it says, since we cannot read it.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Would it make it easier to do a close up of the notarized page?

No, we would need a full, readable photo of each page.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
I dont know what thats about but we usedan older digital camera and emailed it from our normal email account which comes with the website maintained in usa.

What camera did you use? Please be specific. When taking the photos, please use the highest possible resolution.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
We are happy to resend maybe if you would do the courtesty of asking for it the exact weay you want instead of condemning it after the fact would make is simpler.

I have. Your move.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
BTW- none of your comments changes the fact that Joko DID get knocked down without getting touched as he has testified and the journalist witness has verified.

That is your claim, which we are investigating. Repeating it does not make it true. So far, we have seen very strange things happen in the video. Perhaps you could address the points made in the appropriate threads?

You can email me the photos at webmaster@skepticreport.com as usual.

[Patricio Elicer]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Well if you want we could do a overview pic of all the docs
and then a close up of the notary page.A picture is not the best way. A scanned version would be far better and it's easy to do. Just scan every page and send them to Claus

But I have understoond randi has now admitted to signing the contract- or has he not?We are eagerly waiting to see what "Contract" your are talking about.

If there's really something out there, you could make your point very clear by scanning the purported document, and showing it to us. We need something coherent that is readable.

[CFLarsen]

I agree. Use a scanner, yellowbamboo.

[yellowbamboo]

Originally posted by Patricio Elicer
A picture is not the best way. A scanned version would be far better and it's easy to do. Just scan every page and send them to Claus

We are eagerly waiting to see what "Contract" your are talking about.

If there's really something out there, you could make your point very clear by scanning the purported document, and showing it to us. We need something coherent that is readable.



We do not own a scanner. If skeptic emails us asking exactly what he wants then we will phot it and send it.

We will also email joko tri and ask him to forward all correspondence between him and randi and we will also forward correspondence from randi to us telling us tri is his rep.

Just one question- if we jump through all the hoops and give you exactly what you want- what exactly do we get in return?

What is the reason to do everything you want here- will it make any difference with randi?


Pak Ananda
Yellow Bamboo Society
www.yellowbamboo.com

[Brian]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo




Just one question- if we jump through all the hoops and give you exactly what you want- what exactly do we get in return?




Pak Ananda
Yellow Bamboo Society
www.yellowbamboo.com

Credibility.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
We do not own a scanner. If skeptic emails us asking exactly what he wants then we will phot it and send it.

Very well, then photograph them the way I described it. Be advised that if the photos do not live up to a satisfactory standard, scanning might be an option.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
We will also email joko tri and ask him to forward all correspondence between him and randi and we will also forward correspondence from randi to us telling us tri is his rep.

Now you are thinking. Yes, please.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Just one question- if we jump through all the hoops and give you exactly what you want- what exactly do we get in return?

What is the reason to do everything you want here- will it make any difference with randi?

YOU come on the JREF board and claim that the million dollars have been won. YOU bring the evidence. You see, on this board, we support our claims with evidence, or lose credibility completely. Since you are also claiming one million dollars, you most certainly must show extraordinarily good evidence.

Will it make any difference with Randi? You will have to ask him that. However, I find you producing evidence for everyone to see a very good thing. Don't you want as much publicity as possible? Why did you want to win the money in the first place?

The JREF Challenge is the biggest challenge you can win. There are other skeptic groups which have offered prizes too, but this takes the cake. If you want to go for that, you have to expect to be scrutinized by others. Every aspect of this will be investigated, and by clever people, too.

You didn't expect to make a crappy video at night, only a few seconds long, and then walk away with a million bucks, unchallenged? If you did, you are in for a big surprise...

[Chupacabras]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Just one question- if we jump through all the hoops and give you exactly what you want- what exactly do we get in return?
Dear Mr. Pak Ananda,

Just in case some information got lost among your many associates participating in this process, this very discussion is derived from another thread which Yellow Bamboo initiated, named Bamboo Randi contratc (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28205) and which in turn evolves from yet another thread named Open letter to James Randi (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27804) again initiated by Yellow Bamboo, which says:

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Okay some people have said that mr randi claims there is no contract with yellow bamboo- we have never heard this but many people have asked for a copy of the contract. We tried to attach a photo of it ...

YB started posting here spontaneously. YB offered the document for everyone to see. YB willingly entered into further debate with skeptics defending its case.

So, may I ask politely, what do you exactly intend to get in return?

Regards,

[Pyrrho]

In my mind I see a very long chain. It stretches all the way to Bali. In Bali, there is a small man holding one end of that chain, and he is yanking it, and he is laughing.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

And the chain is called Yellow Bamboozle.

~~ Paul

[yellowbamboo]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Very well, then photograph them the way I described it. Be advised that if the photos do not live up to a satisfactory standard, scanning might be an option.



Now you are thinking. Yes, please.



YOU come on the JREF board and claim that the million dollars have been won. YOU bring the evidence. You see, on this board, we support our claims with evidence, or lose credibility completely. Since you are also claiming one million dollars, you most certainly must show extraordinarily good evidence.


NOT true we only won the preliminary test. Next would be the test for the money, if randi plays straight.



Will it make any difference with Randi? You will have to ask him that. However, I find you producing evidence for everyone to see a very good thing. Don't you want as much publicity as possible? Why did you want to win the money in the first place?


IF we win the money we would use it all to travel the world giving free seminars. But we know no matter how many times we knock randi down we will never, never pay :-)



You didn't expect to make a crappy video at night, only a few seconds long, and then walk away with a million bucks, unchallenged? If you did, you are in for a big surprise...


Maybe you are unfamiliar with the rules- once we win the prelim we must then do the real test.

YOu also keep missing one important point- an independent journaLIST WAS THERE TO WITNESS THE TEST- YOU CAN BE SURE IF HE WAS BENT RANDI WOULD ANNOUNCE IT TO THE WORLD, NO?

YBS

[Brown]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Maybe you are unfamiliar with the rules- once we win the prelim we must then do the real test.

YOu also keep missing one important point- an independent journaLIST WAS THERE TO WITNESS THE TEST- YOU CAN BE SURE IF HE WAS BENT RANDI WOULD ANNOUNCE IT TO THE WORLD, NO?As I understand it, you did not "win the prelim" at all. The documents you provided, partial though they are, disclose conditions that are not what were actually used. And the independent journalist's presence has no relevance at all.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Brown
As I understand it, you did not "win the prelim" at all. The documents you provided, partial though they are, disclose conditions that are not what were actually used. And the independent journalist's presence has no relevance at all.

May I just offer a note in support of what Brown has said?

The video, as short as it is, makes it very clear that the agreed-upon conditions for the test were not followed by Yellow Bamboo. Even if Mr. Tri was an official JREF representative (which he wasn't), the test still would not have been passed.

[Patricio Elicer]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Just one question- if we jump through all the hoops and give you exactly what you want- what exactly do we get in return?

What is the reason to do everything you want here- will it make any difference with randi?You would get our credibility, that's what you want, isn't it?. If not, and if this is just a matter between Randi and you, then why did you sign up to the forums and went into all the trouble of explaining the issue here?

I find your explanation of not owning a scanner, way too childish. It'd be very easy to have someone scan that purported document for you, if you so wanted.

If the alleged "Contract" were real, then it would be a big point in favor of Yellow Bamboo to post it here in all clarity and extension. If YB alleged superpowers were real, then you should have no problems in making a clear sun-lit video demonstration.

Why nothing of this has been done?. It raises strong suspicions on me that there's a concerted and conscious effort to conceal the truth.

[CFLarsen]

I got an email from YB with...some stuff. I will post it later today.

[CFLarsen]

YellowBamboo,

Thank you for emailing me the scanned page with Randi's signature. It is nice to see that you were able to find a scanner after all.

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/NotarizedForm2.jpg

The original (685Kb!), which should be referred to, when analyzing it) is here. (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/NotarizedForm.jpg)

I have a few problems:


Where did you download the "contract" from? Please provide a specific URL.
Where are the promised "overview pic" of all the documents? You have only provided a scan of a signed page. Please provide a scanned image of each page.
Where is the pic of the envelope?
Where does Randi admit that he has signed the "contract"?
What "contract" has he admitted to signing?
What was the content?


You have sent me some emails, purportedly from Randi. However, I see no mention of a "contract" there. You also dodge very crucial questions.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
YellowBamboo,

Thank you for emailing me the scanned page with Randi's signature. It is nice to see that you were able to find a scanner after all.

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/NotarizedForm2.jpg

The original (685Kb!), which should be referred to, when analyzing it) is here. (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/NotarizedForm.jpg)

I have a few problems:


Where did you download the "contract" from? Please provide a specific URL.
Where are the promised "overview pic" of all the documents? You have only provided a scan of a signed page. Please provide a scanned image of each page.
Where is the pic of the envelope?
Where does Randi admit that he has signed the "contract"?
What "contract" has he admitted to signing?
What was the content?


You have sent me some emails, purportedly from Randi. However, I see no mention of a "contract" there. You also dodge very crucial questions.
Nothing on that page links Randi to Joko Tri or supports the contention that Joko Tri was acting as an official representative of JREF.

[CERDIP]

All we have here is the end of a notarized Application for Status of Claimant (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html). The word "problems" as well as the other type-written text on the document shows this.

So then, what's the point of this ? It says nothing about anything, other than that Alvin G. Donovan III applied for Status of Claimant and that by signing the doc, he has agreed to abide by the rules of the Challenge.


It does not, for example, address the key aspect of the challenge:

1. Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result. This is the primary and most important of these rules.

It does not even mention Yellow Bamboo.

[Patricio Elicer]

Originally posted by CERDIP
All we have here is the end of a notarized Application for Status of Claimant (http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html). The word "problems" as well as the other type-written text on the document shows this.Yes, I agree. This is nothing but the last page of the agreement signed by both parts on the protocol for the final test.

Randi already addressed this point in his Oct 3rd Commentary: Our involvement with the Yellow Bamboo group, in Bali, Indonesia, began on June 28th, 2003, when we actually received their application. We'd been trying to get them to fulfill the application requirements since December of 2002, a full seven months of back-and-forth messaging. The protocol they finally agreed to needed small adjustments, which were made[Emphasis mine]

This is meaningless and misleading. Why only the last page?. Why should anybody take this seriously?

[yellowbamboo]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
YellowBamboo,

Thank you for emailing me the scanned page with Randi's signature. It is nice to see that you were able to find a scanner after all.

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/NotarizedForm2.jpg

The original (685Kb!), which should be referred to, when analyzing it) is here. (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/NotarizedForm.jpg)

I have a few problems:


Where did you download the "contract" from? Please provide a specific URL.
Where are the promised "overview pic" of all the documents? You have only provided a scan of a signed page. Please provide a scanned image of each page.
Where is the pic of the envelope?
Where does Randi admit that he has signed the "contract"?
What "contract" has he admitted to signing?
What was the content?


You have sent me some emails, purportedly from Randi. However, I see no mention of a "contract" there. You also dodge very crucial questions.



are you f**king stupid?


If you are going to go through the effort to criticise us you should at least pay attention to what is sent to you.

Yesterday ALL we sent to you was forwarded copies of email to us from randi.

We also organised (and paid the costs for as stipulated in our agreement with randi) for joko to forward to you all of his correspondence with randi.

If youir not going to pay attention to what is sent to you let us know and we will not waste any more time.

If you are going to pay attention- then on friday we will try to photo and post all of the
correspondence in a total shot then each page as a close up.


A) The scanned copies were in an email that randi sent to *us*
as an attachment. Did you not read his email to us which we forwarded to you?


B) Since you are too lazy to find the url of the
randi contract here it is http://randi.org/research/challenge.html


C) We now posess also copies of all of randis correspondence with joko- where does it state his test was not a preliminary test?

Randi clearly says he expects joko to tap randi and wodners if yb will put it up on their website.

What is the logic in this? If joko taps serengen we lose
but if serengen knocks down joko it is not winning?

Also you lose sight of this:

A) No where does it state the sized of the bamboo stick.

B) How do you know joko was not alking fast to scare serengen and had the intention of slowing and tapping him at the last minute.

C) Even if he did intend to walk fast and hit hard like all the attackers in the videos- serengen did knock him down- the speed and intent of the attack in no way takes away from the fact he was knocked down.

D) It was Joko and the journalist fault *they* were late
and it was joko who provided the camera so the quality of the video was randi's rep fault NOT ours.


YBS

[Patricio Elicer]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
If you are going to go through the effort to criticise us you should at least pay attention to what is sent to you. If you pretend to say that Yellow Bamboo passed the preliminary test, then you should pay attention to this: Randi: I told him that he should make a video of the whole procedure, and he agreed. I also told him that he should use a small bamboo stick, not a weapon, and simply walk forward and tap Serengen on the leg, then walk away.

Although YB had agreed to do the test on Friday, September 12th at ten in the morning, it was postponed until Sunday, September 14th, and it took place at night, after dark, at a spot they'd selected on the beach.

The videotape I was expecting to be made, was not made. Instead, a Sony camera that takes a floppy disk, was used; it makes 12-second "snaps" of action, at very low resolution. As we saw last week, that video "clip" is very obscure and dark, so it doesn't tell us much.

No, YB did not pass the JREF preliminary test. There are many reasons for their failure:

First, no continuous videotape record was made, as I'd clearly required. Without that, there is only evidence that Mr. Tri fell down, but no indication of how or why. Second, Joko did not walk up to Serengen and "gently tap him with a piece of bamboo," as I'd specified, and YB had agreed to, but charged at him full tilt, with a huge bamboo poleYou can't claim to have pass the Preliminary Test, since two rules clearly stated by Randi and agreed by YB, were not followed:

1) No continous, clear, day-light video was made.

2) Joko did not walk to Serengen and gently tap him, but ran and charged at him full tilt.

[Aoidoi]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
are you f**king stupid?They appear to be quite reasonable questions.

If you are going to go through the effort to criticise us you should at least pay attention to what is sent to you.

Yesterday ALL we sent to you was forwarded copies of email to us from randi.

We also organised (and paid the costs for as stipulated in our agreement with randi) for joko to forward to you all of his correspondence with randi.

If youir not going to pay attention to what is sent to you let us know and we will not waste any more time.Just to make sure this is clear, if you mean sending the information to Randi (at the JREF) that is exactly what you should do, as the JREF is the only organization actually involved in the challenge. Sending information to be posted on the board is nice of you, but none of the posters in this thread have any sort of authority to speak for the JREF. This board is hosted by the JREF but does not represent JREF. Randi very infrequently reads the boards, and I'm not even sure who else at the JREF has the authority to look into this sort of thing.

I just want to make it clear that you're dealing with 2 seperate groups here. JREF administers the challenge, this bulletin board is made up of people who (generally) do not. It is nice of you to try to answer the questions posed here, but the JREF is the one you need to communicate with to get the prize.

If you are going to pay attention- then on friday we will try to photo and post all of the
correspondence in a total shot then each page as a close up.That would be appreciated. I'm quite interested in seeing the details of what was agreed to and what happened.


C) We now posess also copies of all of randis correspondence with joko- where does it state his test was not a preliminary test?When you post it Friday we can see, but as far as I know nobody on the board has seen the correspondance yet.

Randi clearly says he expects joko to tap randi and wodners if yb will put it up on their website.

What is the logic in this? If joko taps serengen we lose
but if serengen knocks down joko it is not winning?I believe Randi's comment is that the test was to be to tap him, not to take a wild swing at him. So the issue is if Joko taps Serengen without being knocked down then Serengen has not demonstrated his ability, but if Joko does not follow the protocol then no determination can be made one way or the other.

The "logic" in it is that Randi apparently has an idea on how Serengen knocks people down which would be stopped by the person walking slowly and tapping rather than running and wildly swinging.

Also you lose sight of this:

A) No where does it state the sized of the bamboo stick.We haven't seen the correspondence yet, all we've seen so far is what is posted in this thread. While it does not specify a size for the bamboo stick it is hardly inclusive of all the communication that occurred. So we don't know. Randi has said it was specified, you're arguing it was not. Until one side or the other gives more info we can't say for sure.

B) How do you know joko was not alking fast to scare serengen and had the intention of slowing and tapping him at the last minute.If that was Joko's intention (and we have no way of determining that) then he was still not following the protocol Randi specified.

C) Even if he did intend to walk fast and hit hard like all the attackers in the videos- serengen did knock him down- the speed and intent of the attack in no way takes away from the fact he was knocked down.Again, Randi apparently believes that there is a trick involved in the running and swinging wildly. The issue is not that Joko ended up on the ground, it's that he ended up there in a way that does not eliminate whatever trick Randi suspects is happening.

D) It was Joko and the journalist fault *they* were late
and it was joko who provided the camera so the quality of the video was randi's rep fault NOT ours.Randi did not specify why the test was delayed. As far as I know it is because Joko was late. I also do not know the origin of the camera. So you are saying that Joko was two days late? Why not wait until the 15th during the day or find a better camera?

I'm sure if Serengen actually has the abilities he claims that you should have no problem demonstrating them again under the protocol previously agreed to.

I do look forward to seeing all the correspondance, it would clear up a number of matters for me... but again, these threads on the board are really just assuaging the curiousity of the bystanders, as it were. I do not represent the JREF, nor do any of the others posting on this thread (as far as I know).

[CERDIP]

What we are witnessing unfold here in the forums is the construction of a legend. Eventually it will culminate in the "out" that Alvin G Donovan III will believe allows him to exclaim "we beat the challenge" but (RANDI/JREF/The Great Unwashed Skeptics) weaseled out of the prize money by...[fill in the blank].

Of course, if that were really to happen (successful challenge not honoured), then the claimant would sue. But that will never happen. A suit could only be enjoined either in Indonesia, and that would be very hazardous to the claimants, or in Florida where I doubt that a court would even let it proceed.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo

D) It was Joko and the journalist fault *they* were late
and it was joko who provided the camera so the quality of the video was randi's rep fault NOT ours.

YBS
You have produced absolutely zero evidence supporting your contention that Mr. Tri was acting as an official repesentative of Randi and JREF. This despite repeated requests.

[MemeHacker]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

You have produced absolutely zero evidence supporting your contention that Mr. Tri was acting as an official repesentative of Randi and JREF. This despite repeated requests.
Randi isn't even diputing that Mr Tri was the JREF rep. Anyone demanding evdience of this is absolutely wasting YB's time ands should probably go read what Randi has said and wonder why he didn't just say 3 weeks ago that, "Joko Tri was not an official JREF reperesneative".

In fact, when YB was disputing the details of the protocols they refer to Joko Tri as the JREF represenative and Randi makes no attempt to correct them. In the open letter to Randi YB says:


. You claim that your representative
Mr Joko Tri from Java did not follow
the protocol correctly.

"Just recall that my protocol required that
Mr. Joko Tri simply walk up and "tap" their "superman"
Nyoman Serengen on the leg with a small bamboo stick,
which was not the protocol followed, for some reason or other"


This again is incorrect.
We refer to our contract which has your
notarized signature of 15 August 2003.



a) No where does it specify how fast Mr Tri
was to approach Mr Serengen. Mr Tri
was walking towards Mr Serengen rapidly
but our contract does not specify a speed.


b) The contract states ".... and is not
required to actually contact Mr Serengen
except by attempting to gently tap him
with a piece of bamboo..."

i. No where does it specify the size of the
piece of bamboo.

ii. Since Mr Tri did not actually tap
Mr Serengen you have no way of knowing
if his intention was to tap Mr Serengen lightly
or not. As you have previously stated
there is no scientific way to know someones
intention.


Randi's response:

(2) The document Joko Tri signed September 14th stated this condition. It supercedes the previous one.

2 a, b, and c, were my instructions to Joko Tri, not to you. He agreed to those stipulations.


http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28067&pagenumber=1

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by MemeHacker

Randi isn't even diputing that Mr Tri was the JREF rep. Anyone demanding evdience of this is absolutely wasting YB's time ands should probably go read what Randi has said and wonder why he didn't just say 3 weeks ago that, "Joko Tri was not an official JREF reperesneative".

So sorry to be wasting YB's time, but I did read what Randi wrote; here is an excerpt from the [u[Swift[/u] of 2003-10-03:

On August 11th, 2003, a Mr. Joko Tri Lestari, on the island of Java, wrote me volunteering to go to Bali and go through the Yellow Bamboo rigmarole that they'd put forth. I told him that though he appeared to have the right qualifications, and that I would normally accept him to do the preliminary test, I'd officially severed my connections with them. But, I told Joko, he was quite free to go there and see what happened, if they'd let him do so.

He decided to go, on his own, not believing that there was any danger involved, though he said he'd be careful to take along his own food and drink, as a precaution.
the part I consider most relevant is in bold font. I read this as Mr. Tri representing only himself, not the JREF in any official capacity.

I do wish Mr. Randi would have addressed the issue more completely.

[MemeHacker]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

So sorry to be wasting YB's time, but I did read what Randi wrote; here is an excerpt from the [u[Swift[/u] of 2003-10-03:

the part I consider most relevant is in bold font. I read this as Mr. Tri representing only himself, not the JREF in any official capacity.

I do wish Mr. Randi would have addressed the issue more completely.

I agree completely with you assesment that those lines seem to indicate Mr Tri was not going as the JREF represenative. However, the phrasing is also very open to interpreation. In light of YB's statements that Joko was the rep it would be moronic for Randi to not make that point clear. I suspect Randi is smart enough to choose his words carefully and wasn't accidentally vague but instead was intentionally spinning the story with out being factually wrong.
[If I am correct consider what this says about Randi's credibility]

If Mr Tri really wasn't the rep wouldn't that have been one the very first things Randi would have made clear when YB was claiming they passed the test with a JREF rep?!??

[yellowbamboo]

Originally posted by MemeHacker

I agree completely with you assesment that those lines seem to indicate Mr Tri was not going as the JREF represenative. However, the phrasing is also very open to interpreation. In light of YB's statements that Joko was the rep it would be moronic for Randi to not make that point clear. I suspect Randi is smart enough to choose his words carefully and wasn't accidentally vague but instead was intentionally spinning the story with out being factually wrong.
[If I am correct consider what this says about Randi's credibility]

If Mr Tri really wasn't the rep wouldn't that have been one the very first things Randi would have made clear when YB was claiming they passed the test with a JREF rep?!??



Excellent points everybody- something very curious here is that the same day we forwarded our correspondence with randi to
the person at skeptic report- *so did joko* but why has he not put jokos forwarded correspondence here as well?

In it randi clearly appoints joko his rep and gives him NO instructions as to the size of the stick.

Randi clearly talks about what will yb post on their site when serengen gets hit- so if serengen gets hit that means to randi we lose but if he does not get hit it means to randi he is in trouble with his money and better find an out.

We will try on friday to send skeptic all the photos of all the correspondence when we c an get to a high speed internet cafe.

And YES we are negotiating with randi to do the trial again but this time on the condition randi is there himself.

YB does not mind doing the test again but the point is we alreeady paid for joko expenses and we dont want to keep paying over and over again for tests that randi does not like the outcome.
YBS

[Jim_MDP]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo


In it randi clearly appoints joko his rep and gives him NO instructions as to the size of the stick.

YBS

Will you shut up about the size of the stick?

Who said anything about the size of the stick?

Nobody cares about the size of the stick.

There, I feel better now. ;)

[Two Possibilities]

I care about the size of the stick...at least Freud taught me to care!

Anyhow, the stick size is really not important is it? Like what good would YB's defensive art be if it only worked against a certain sized yellow bamboo. "Excuse me Mr. Robber, can you please use this stick instead of that knife"

Hey, I just thought of a good test. Since YB teaches the power of the shout, how about we have an elephant charge at the guy and if he lives then gets the 1 Milliion.

If Randi did agree to let Joko be a representative, then it is a bad judgement call on his part. Joko, if you are reading this...you were played. I am sorry my friend but there are people out there who want to play others. They have blamed you for the late start so that it was after dark but I believe there are many ways to ensure that you were there late.

What expenses did they pay? Did they fly you there? Or perhaps they paid for your cab ride to the site...

[Hannibal]

test

[whitefork]

Welcome back, Doctor. Great to see you.

[Hannibal]

Why thank you...I'll look forward to eating your liver later!;)

[yellowbamboo]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

So sorry to be wasting YB's time, but I did read what Randi wrote; here is an excerpt from the [u[Swift[/u] of 2003-10-03:

the part I consider most relevant is in bold font. I read this as Mr. Tri representing only himself, not the JREF in any official capacity.

I do wish Mr. Randi would have addressed the issue more completely.




1. Joko has forwarded his correspondence with mr randi to mr larsen the same day we did.

Mr Larsen - why dont you post jokos correspondence with randi?
He sent it to us as an attachment in yahoo mail so you can be sure it is not tampered with.


In the correspondence randi appoints him as the rep.
He also says a video is helpful but makes NO mention of a continous day light video.


2. We have to thank the people here for asking for all of our correspondence with randi- on friday we will email the correcpondence to larsen.

Guess what? On the letter from randi to us on 23 june 2003
randi says the "preliminary tests at least can take place in indonesia" thereby giving weight it is the real prelim

But most importantly

"The attacker will run towards mr serengen and attack him with a bamboo stick"

Keep watching to see if larsen puts jokos posts
and randis written letters here.


We will put jokos forwarded correspondence here
buy larsen has the emails sent to him as well as yahoo email attachments

[alfaniner]

"Tri"

"Joko"

I think we have the origins of a hoax here.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo

He also says a video is helpful but makes NO mention of a continous day light video.


Yeah, it is always better to shoot a very short grainy chaotic clip in terrible viewing conditions.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
Yeah, it is always better to shoot a very short grainy chaotic clip in terrible viewing conditions.
This is completely nuts. Do these people claim that their power only works after dark, in poor lighting, and when there are a lot of extraneous people milling around to confuse any record?

If not, why not just make a nice clear recording of a nice, obvious demonstration?

Just do it. If Randi is maintaining that whatever happened wan't an official preliminary test, that's good - it means they're not barred for a year from trying again. So come on, how hard can it be?

Rolfe.

[LTC8K6]

He sent it to us as an attachment in yahoo mail so you can be sure it is not tampered with.

What?

[CFLarsen]

yellowbamboo,

Here are the emails from a "joko tri".

Delivered-To: webmaster@skepticreport.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:08:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: joko tri <tl_joko_s@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: RE: yellow bambo challenge
To: webmaster@skepticreport.com

Hello I am Joko,

Dr Alvin asked me to send this to you about the randi
challenge i hope you get it okay?

Joko


Note: forwarded message attached.

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From: "James Randi" <randi@randi.org>
To: "'joko tri'" <tl_joko_s@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:08:47 -0400
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The test does not involve knocking down their leader, only your NOT being
knocked down "remotely," as they claim they can do.


Yes, I would accept you as a volunteer on behalf of the JREF. However, I'm
no longer dealing with them, since they have thrown so many obstacles in the
way of those who have previously volunteered. I suggest that you ask them
to provide you with a written guarantee of your safety against any harm that
might occur which is NOT a result of their magical powers. And I suggest
that you have a media representative present at all times....


James Randi


-----Original Message-----
From: joko tri [mailto:tl_joko_s@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 5:37 AM
To: randi@randi.org
Subject: yellow bambo challenge


Mr Randi,



I live in Indonesia and am a muslim from the island of
Java. A friend of mine
from Australia told me about your challenge with the
yellow bamboo organisation on bali
and I read on your website where you are looking for
volunteers
in Indonesia to be your representative.


I also read what they have been saying on the martial
arts newsgroups. They are obviously
lying and doing everything they can to get publicity
from you without doing the test.
Let me say right now that even though I am Indonesian
I am extremely skeptical
that their Mr Serengen can knock me down, in fact I am
sure of it.


I am so sure that I am wiling to go to bali on my own
expenses anytime anywhere
to prove their claims are phony and fraudulent. I will
do all of the things they want like
join their club etc just to prove they are total
baloney.


I think the next full moon is 12 of august and am
volunteering to go there
tomorrow to do their test. I think this element of
surprise would make them either
chicken out and not do the test at all or accept me as
the attacker.


Can I please be the volunteer for the test as I would
like to be the one to debunk their fraud?


If this 12 of august is too soon to organize
everything I can still go
next month also.


You might know there is a lot of bad energy between us
muslims and those hindus on bali
so it would also help if you could get them to give me
a written assurance of
my safety once i knock their leader onto the ground
thus proving what a bunch of frauds they
are.


Your sincerely,


Joko Tri Lestari



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Next one:

Delivered-To: webmaster@skepticreport.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:08:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: joko tri <tl_joko_s@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: RE: yellow bambo challenge
To: webmaster@skepticreport.com



Note: forwarded message attached.



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From: "James Randi" <randi@randi.org>
To: "'joko tri'" <tl_joko_s@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:37:22 -0400
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Yes, video would be necessary, and very valuable.


James Randi


-----Original Message-----
From: joko tri [mailto:tl_joko_s@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 10:22 PM
To: James Randi
Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge


Okay Mr Randi I will try to do all that you ask.



1. I will email them saying you will accept me as the
attacker and also written assurances for my personal
safety.


2. I will TRY to get media representative here as
well.



3. Should I also video the attacking demonstration?



Kind Regards,



Joko





--- James Randi <randi@randi.org> wrote:
> The test does not involve knocking down their
> leader, only your NOT being
> knocked down "remotely," as they claim they can do.
>
> Yes, I would accept you as a volunteer on behalf of
> the JREF. However, I'm
> no longer dealing with them, since they have thrown
> so many obstacles in the
> way of those who have previously volunteered. I
> suggest that you ask them
> to provide you with a written guarantee of your
> safety against any harm that
> might occur which is NOT a result of their magical
> powers. And I suggest
> that you have a media representative present at all
> times....
>
> James Randi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: joko tri [mailto:tl_joko_s@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 5:37 AM
> To: randi@randi.org
> Subject: yellow bambo challenge
>
> Mr Randi,
>
>
> I live in Indonesia and am a muslim from the island
> of
> Java. A friend of mine
> from Australia told me about your challenge with the
> yellow bamboo organisation on bali
> and I read on your website where you are looking for
> volunteers
> in Indonesia to be your representative.
>
> I also read what they have been saying on the
> martial
> arts newsgroups. They are obviously
> lying and doing everything they can to get publicity
> from you without doing the test.
> Let me say right now that even though I am
> Indonesian
> I am extremely skeptical
> that their Mr Serengen can knock me down, in fact I
> am
> sure of it.
>
> I am so sure that I am wiling to go to bali on my
> own
> expenses anytime anywhere
> to prove their claims are phony and fraudulent. I
> will
> do all of the things they want like
> join their club etc just to prove they are total
> baloney.
>
> I think the next full moon is 12 of august and am
> volunteering to go there
> tomorrow to do their test. I think this element of
> surprise would make them either
> chicken out and not do the test at all or accept me
> as
> the attacker.
>
> Can I please be the volunteer for the test as I
> would
> like to be the one to debunk their fraud?
>
> If this 12 of august is too soon to organize
> everything I can still go
> next month also.
>
> You might know there is a lot of bad energy between
> us
> muslims and those hindus on bali
> so it would also help if you could get them to give
> me
> a written assurance of
> my safety once i knock their leader onto the ground
> thus proving what a bunch of frauds they
> are.
>
> Your sincerely,
>
> Joko Tri Lestari
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> http://search.yahoo.com
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system
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> (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>



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Next one:

Delivered-To: webmaster@skepticreport.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:09:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: joko tri <tl_joko_s@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: RE: yellow bambo challenge
To: webmaster@skepticreport.com



Note: forwarded message attached.



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From: "James Randi" <randi@randi.org>
To: "'joko tri'" <tl_joko_s@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge
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Nothing else, I think, but please be very careful.


These are devious people, and I suspect that they don't really want to be
tested. With that in mind, I suggest that you should not drink or eat
anything they offer you, in case they put a psychedelic substance in there.
Just a precaution.


They will be very difficult, and very cunning. They will try to "win" you
with smiles and pleasant talk, but don't be deceived. If fact, I still
doubt that any test will really take place. I think they'll find ways to
abort the test.


However, I'm willing to be shown.


PLEASE be sure that you have a witness, preferably a media representative.


James Randi


-----Original Message-----
From: joko tri [mailto:tl_joko_s@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:27 PM
To: James Randi
Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge


Mr Randi,



Okay I think I have everything you wanted me to do.



A) I will video it.


B) I have their written agreement as well as guarantee
for my safety.


I am ready to go and do it in September is there
anything else I need to do to go ahead?



Joko





--- James Randi <randi@randi.org> wrote:
> Yes, video would be necessary, and very valuable.
>
> James Randi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: joko tri [mailto:tl_joko_s@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 10:22 PM
> To: James Randi
> Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge
>
> Okay Mr Randi I will try to do all that you ask.
>
>
> 1. I will email them saying you will accept me as
> the
> attacker and also written assurances for my personal
> safety.
>
> 2. I will TRY to get media representative here as
> well.
>
>
> 3. Should I also video the attacking demonstration?
>
>
> Kind Regards,
>
>
> Joko
>
>
>
>
> --- James Randi <randi@randi.org> wrote:
> > The test does not involve knocking down their
> > leader, only your NOT being
> > knocked down "remotely," as they claim they can
> do.
> >
> > Yes, I would accept you as a volunteer on behalf
> of
> > the JREF. However, I'm
> > no longer dealing with them, since they have
> thrown
> > so many obstacles in the
> > way of those who have previously volunteered. I
> > suggest that you ask them
> > to provide you with a written guarantee of your
> > safety against any harm that
> > might occur which is NOT a result of their magical
> > powers. And I suggest
> > that you have a media representative present at
> all
> > times....
> >
> > James Randi
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: joko tri [mailto:tl_joko_s@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 5:37 AM
> > To: randi@randi.org
> > Subject: yellow bambo challenge
> >
> > Mr Randi,
> >
> >
> > I live in Indonesia and am a muslim from the
> island
> > of
> > Java. A friend of mine
> > from Australia told me about your challenge with
> the
> > yellow bamboo organisation on bali
> > and I read on your website where you are looking
> for
> > volunteers
> > in Indonesia to be your representative.
> >
> > I also read what they have been saying on the
> > martial
> > arts newsgroups. They are obviously
> > lying and doing everything they can to get
> publicity
> > from you without doing the test.
> > Let me say right now that even though I am
> > Indonesian
> > I am extremely skeptical
> > that their Mr Serengen can knock me down, in fact
> I
> > am
> > sure of it.
> >
> > I am so sure that I am wiling to go to bali on my
> > own
> > expenses anytime anywhere
> > to prove their claims are phony and fraudulent. I
> > will
> > do all of the things they want like
> > join their club etc just to prove they are total
> > baloney.
> >
> > I think the next full moon is 12 of august and am
> > volunteering to go there
> > tomorrow to do their test. I think this element of
> > surprise would make them either
> > chicken out and not do the test at all or accept
> me
> > as
> > the attacker.
> >
> > Can I please be the volunteer for the test as I
> > would
> > like to be the one to debunk their fraud?
> >
> > If this 12 of august is too soon to organize
> > everything I can still go
> > next month also.
> >
> > You might know there is a lot of bad energy
> between
> > us
> > muslims and those hindus on bali
> > so it would also help if you could get them to
> give
> > me
> > a written assurance of
> > my safety once i knock their leader onto the
> ground
> > thus proving what a bunch of frauds they
> > are.
> >
> > Your sincerely,
> >
> > Joko Tri Lestari
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> > http://search.yahoo.com
> >
> > ---
> > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
> > (http://www.grisoft.com).
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> >
> >
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> > (http://www.grisoft.com).
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> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> http://search.yahoo.com
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system
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>
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> (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>
>



__________________________________
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http://search.yahoo.com


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And the next...

Delivered-To: webmaster@skepticreport.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: joko tri <tl_joko_s@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: RE: yellow bambo challenge
To: webmaster@skepticreport.com



Note: forwarded message attached.



__________________________________
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From: "James Randi" <randi@randi.org>
To: "'joko tri'" <tl_joko_s@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 10:01:25 -0400
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Joko: Interesting! I'm very much looking forward to hearing from you about
what has taken place! I looked up and saw the full moon, and wondered if the
test would be done, and now you write to tell me that everything is in
place.


Please, be careful, and get a report to me as soon as you can.


It will be very interesting to see what the YB people will put up on their
website after this event! I can guarantee that they will have an entire
mythology developed to explain why Mr. Serengen was struck, and that
explanation will be accepted by their followers!


If there are any newspaper accounts, I hope you will be able to have copies.


James Randi


-----Original Message-----
From: joko tri [mailto:tl_joko_s@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 10:27 PM
To: James Randi
Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge


Mr Randi,


I already did their balinese hokey pokey full moon
ceremony. I was surpriseed there was so many people
there.


Anyway you were right they are very cunning. Very
friendly and polite and they seemed to be searching
for excuses to get out of the challenge.


Mr Serengen seems like a very real person but i know
his claims must be untrue.


Well tomorrow is the day of the challenge. I have
everything ready-


camera to video it
my friend from java, mr eco is going to be my witness
there is a journalist who promised to be there


as soon as it is over i will email you and tell you
the results which i am sure will mean i tapped mr
serengen with the bamboo pole.


so i will email you in the next day or so with the
results and then get the video of proof to you as soon
as i can.


Joko Tri






--- James Randi <randi@randi.org> wrote:
> Nothing else, I think, but please be very careful.
>
> These are devious people, and I suspect that they
> don't really want to be
> tested. With that in mind, I suggest that you
> should not drink or eat
> anything they offer you, in case they put a
> psychedelic substance in there.
> Just a precaution.
>
> They will be very difficult, and very cunning. They
> will try to "win" you
> with smiles and pleasant talk, but don't be
> deceived. If fact, I still
> doubt that any test will really take place. I think
> they'll find ways to
> abort the test.
>
> However, I'm willing to be shown.
>
> PLEASE be sure that you have a witness, preferably a
> media representative.
>
> James Randi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: joko tri [mailto:tl_joko_s@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:27 PM
> To: James Randi
> Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge
>
> Mr Randi,
>
>
> Okay I think I have everything you wanted me to do.
>
>
> A) I will video it.
>
> B) I have their written agreement as well as
> guarantee
> for my safety.
>
> I am ready to go and do it in September is there
> anything else I need to do to go ahead?
>
>
> Joko
>
>
>
>
> --- James Randi <randi@randi.org> wrote:
> > Yes, video would be necessary, and very valuable.
> >
> > James Randi
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: joko tri [mailto:tl_joko_s@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 10:22 PM
> > To: James Randi
> > Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge
> >
> > Okay Mr Randi I will try to do all that you ask.
> >
> >
> > 1. I will email them saying you will accept me as
> > the
> > attacker and also written assurances for my
> personal
> > safety.
> >
> > 2. I will TRY to get media representative here as
> > well.
> >
> >
> > 3. Should I also video the attacking
> demonstration?
> >
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> >
> >
> > Joko
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- James Randi <randi@randi.org> wrote:
> > > The test does not involve knocking down their
> > > leader, only your NOT being
> > > knocked down "remotely," as they claim they can
> > do.
> > >
> > > Yes, I would accept you as a volunteer on behalf
> > of
> > > the JREF. However, I'm
> > > no longer dealing with them, since they have
> > thrown
> > > so many obstacles in the
> > > way of those who have previously volunteered. I
> > > suggest that you ask them
> > > to provide you with a written guarantee of your
> > > safety against any harm that
> > > might occur which is NOT a result of their
> magical
> > > powers. And I suggest
> > > that you have a media representative present at
> > all
> > > times....
> > >
> > > James Randi
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: joko tri [mailto:tl_joko_s@yahoo.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 5:37 AM
> > > To: randi@randi.org
> > > Subject: yellow bambo challenge
> > >
> > > Mr Randi,
> > >
> > >
> > > I live in Indonesia and am a muslim from the
> > island
> > > of
> > > Java. A friend of mine
> > > from Australia told me about your challenge with
> > the
> > > yellow bamboo organisation on bali
> > > and I read on your website where you are looking
> > for
> > > volunteers
> > > in Indonesia to be your representative.
> > >
> > > I also read what they have been saying on the
> > > martial
> > > arts newsgroups. They are obviously
> > > lying and doing everything they can to get
> > publicity
> > > from you without doing the test.
> > > Let me say right now that even though I am
> > > Indonesian
> > > I am extremely skeptical
> > > that their Mr Serengen can knock me down, in
> fact
> > I
> > > am
> > > sure of it.
> > >
> > > I am so sure that I am wiling to go to bali on
> my
> > > own
> > > expenses anytime anywhere
> > > to prove their claims are phony and fraudulent.
> I
> > > will
> > > do all of the things they want like
> > > join their club etc just to prove they are total
> > > baloney.
> > >
> > > I think the next full moon is 12 of august and
> am
> > > volunteering to go there
> > > tomorrow to do their test. I think this element
> of
> > > surprise would make them either
> > > chicken out and not do the test at all or accept
> > me
> > > as
> > > the attacker.
> > >
> > > Can I please be the volunteer for the test as I
> > > would
> > > like to be the one to debunk their fraud?
> > >
> > > If this 12 of august is too soon to organize
> > > everything I can still go
> > > next month also.
> > >
> > > You might know there is a lot of bad energy
> > between
> > > us
> > > muslims and those hindus on bali
> > > so it would also help if you could get them to
> > give
> > > me
> > > a written assurance of
> > > my safety once i knock their leader onto the
> > ground
> > > thus proving what a bunch of frauds they
> > > are.
> > >
> > > Your sincerely,
> > >
> > > Joko Tri Lestari
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> > > http://search.yahoo.com
>
=== message truncated ===



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And the final:

Delivered-To: webmaster@skepticreport.com
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 23:10:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: joko tri <tl_joko_s@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fwd: RE: yellow bambo challenge
To: webmaster@skepticreport.com



Note: forwarded message attached.



__________________________________
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From: "James Randi" <randi@randi.org>
To: "'joko tri'" <tl_joko_s@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:06:17 -0400
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Wow! How interesting!


Just getting out my web page for this week, so have to get back to that.


I'll be in touch shortly.


James Randi


-----Original Message-----
From: joko tri [mailto:tl_joko_s@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 12:04 AM
To: James Randi
Subject: RE: yellow bambo challenge




Mr Randi,



Well I did the Yellow Bamboo Randi challenge the day
before yesterday. I tried to email you yesterday
but the internet cafe here was shut down.


I will try to go to internet cafe at least 1 time a
week in case you have any questions for me from my
report.


It happened on Sunday 14 September. We
(my friend Ekko and I)
were a litle late to get to the meeting point
(which was a 2 hour drive from
where I was staying) but not intentionally.


Once I got to he meeting point we had to drive
about 30 minute to the beach for the demonstration.
Once we got to the beach we still had to wait for
the journalist.


The Journalist witnessing the event was
Mr Suastawa from the radio republik
indonesia broadcasting network. His phone
number is intl 62 812 365 0365. (You can see
the journalist in the background of the video
he was just a few meters away from the action.)


So by the time the journalist arrived the light
was fading fast so we lined up the autos with high
beams so we could get enough light to video it.


As you know already- I joined the Yellow Bamboo
a few days earlier so I wore my Yellow Bamboo
uniform issued to me on my joining day.


At the demonstration were Mr Serengen,
Mr Ananda, Mr Puspa, Mr Suardana and
Dr Donovan of the Yellow Bamboo Organisation.


There was myself, my witness Ekko and the
journalist Mr Suastawa. There were also
a few local villagers but I did not get
their names.


I had some others behind me (Mr Ananda and
Suardana) who also walked towards Mr Serengen
after I started.


We stood about
10 meters from Mr Serengen and
I came toward him with the intention of tapping
him with the bamboo pole.


I am not really clear about what happened next
and have watched the video over and over.
I went towards Mr Serengen and he kind of screamed
and pushed towards me but did not actually
touch me.


I then felt a small push against me which made
me quite dizzy and knocked me to the ground.
The others behind me also were knocked to the
ground. But they were behind me not in front
of me. At no time was I touched physically
by anybody or any thing.


There seems to be no logical explanation
about what happened but since it happened to me
I am sure I did not fall down on purpose.
I tried 100% to tap him with the pole.


I dont really know what else to say but
I dont think it was any kind of hypnosis
or power of suggestion since I was
totally skeptical Mr Serengen would knock
me down. It all came as a shock and a surprise
to me. Bit I have no idea how it was done
since I do not believe in magic power.


I looked around the area thoroughly before
and after the event and could find no kind
of hidden anything and my friend Ekko and the
journalist were very close and to them it looked
as if I was knocked down but by what they
have no idea or explanation.




Sincerely,


Joko Tri












--- James Randi <randi@randi.org> wrote:
> Joko: Interesting! I'm very much looking forward
> to hearing from you about
> what has taken place! I looked up and saw the full
> moon, and wondered if the
> test would be done, and now you write to tell me
> that everything is in
> place.
>
> Please, be careful, and get a report to me as soon
> as you can.
>
> It will be very interesting to see what the YB
> people will put up on their
> website after this event! I can guarantee that they
> will have an entire
> mythology developed to explain why Mr. Serengen was
> struck, and that
> explanation will be accepted by their followers!
>
> If there are any newspaper accounts, I hope you will
> be able to have copies.
>
> James Randi



__________________________________
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I will be awaiting full, readable scans/photos of all the pages by friday (tomorrow).

[yellowbamboo]

Okay I photo and send email to larsen all the written hard copy correspondence i get from randi.

Note in randi 28 june 2003 letter to us

"I agree that the demonstrations ( at least the preliminary TEST) may take place in Indonesia"

AND

" THe person will begin the attack from approximately 20 meters away and RUN towards Mr Serengen, attempting to STRIKE HIM with a bamboo stick"

EMPHASIS MINE.

Well in the written info randi calls it a preliminary test and says the attacker will run towards serengen and attempt to strike him
which is exactly what heppened.

Anyone with a friend here in bali can have them sight the original docs if they want to authenticate.

Ananda
YBS

[LTC8K6]

Why don't you just provide a clear demonstration? That way we can all see what is or is not happening.

I wouldn't give one dollar for what I've seen.

Video cameras are cheap these days.

[CERDIP]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo


...
Note in randi 28 june 2003 letter to us

...



I think we're more interested in seeing the correspondence between YB and JREF/Randi that took place AFTER the 28th June. At least I am. According to Randi's SWIFT postings, the 28th of June was when serious correspondence BEGAN. With said correspondence being terminated sometime with the next month or so, when too many roadblocks were raised by YB.

I'd like to see all YB - JREF/Randi correspondence, not just cherrypicked items.


Originally posted by yellowbamboo
....
Ananda
YBS

Ananda? Who is that? What happened to Alvin G. Donovan III ?

[CFLarsen]

Dear YellowBamboo,

I am now convinced that this is a hoax. You yourself have provided the evidence of this.

Allow me to explain.

Here are thumbnails of the photos you sent me. The full-sized versions can be seen by clicking on them.

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb001x.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb001.jpg)
PAGE 1

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb002x.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb002.jpg)
PAGE 2

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb003x.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb003.jpg)
PAGE 3

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb004x.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb004.jpg)
PAGE 4

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb005x.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb005.jpg)
PAGE 5

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb006b.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb006.jpg)
PAGE 6

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb007x.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb007.jpg)
PAGE 7

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb008x.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/yb008.jpg)
PAGE 8


Now...

PAGE 1

You did not - as you were asked to do - provide a full close-up of the envelope. Why?

PAGE 2

Here, Randi - purportedly - states that "the demonstration (at least the preliminary tests) may take place in Indonesia."

Note, that Randi talks about a demonstration. He generally wants to see (or somebody to see) a demonstration before a preliminary test takes place. This was the case with e.g. Natalia Lulova, and is a quite sensible demand.

If you claim that what Joko Tri did was a preliminary test, do you agree that no demonstration took place before the test?

There is another paragraph on this page:

"I will re-phrase your third sentence into an acceptable form: "Your attacker will sign a liability waiver prior to the demonstration releasing Mr. Serengen and the Yellow Bamboo organisation from any civil or criminal liability in the event of your attackers' injury or death that results from any means other than the claimed power employed by Mr. Serengen, excluding any other recognized force or agency."

This waiver (see PAGE 8) is not signed. Can you explain why the waiver is not signed? Since the waiver is not signed, why should the agreement still be in effect, since Randi - again purportedly - specifically requests that this re-phrasing is accepted by you?

PAGE 5

Here, there is a handwritten note - in black - indicating that it is a copy - presumably a black-and-white photocopy. This would explain why the top of the page looks like it's been through a photocopier. However, on PAGE 7, we find the same "photocopy fingerprint", except that this has the signature of Randi - in color. Could you please explain how a black-and-white photocopy can show a signature in color?

There is another thing that puzzles me on this page: The Florida notary has signed and stamped the document. However, the signature by US Consular Agent, Andrew Toth, is not followed by any stamp of any kind. Now, I have recently been to the American Embassy in Copenhagen to have some documents notarized for use in the US, and I got a nice, big imprint on each document - very impressive, very official-looking. Very expensive, too, I might add! I find no such imprint or mark here. Can you explain why this document is not properly notarized?

As you can see, there are quite a lot of...discrepancies...that convinces me (further) that you are perpetrating a hoax. But, as always, I could be wrong. Therefore, could you please address the questions?


Why did you not provide a close-up of the envelope?
If you claim that what Joko Tri did was a preliminary test, do you agree that no demonstration took place before the test?
Can you explain why the waiver was not signed?
Since the waiver is not signed, why should the agreement still be in effect, since Randi - again purportedly - specifically requests that this re-phrasing is accepted by you?
Can you explain how a black-and-white photocopy can show a signature in color?
Can you explain why this document is not properly notarized?


As for Randi signing this, I am perfectly willing to wait with that, until we have these other things cleared. In my next post, I will merely show your examples, compared to the two I have.

[CFLarsen]

A comparison of the signatures:

Yellow Bamboo:

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/randisig03x.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/randisig03.jpg)

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/randisig04.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/randisig04.jpg)

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/randisig05x.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/randisig05.jpg)


My own:

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/randisig01x.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/randisig01.jpg)
Randi's signature on my copy of FlimFlam

http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/randisig02x.jpg (http://www.skepticreport.com/resources/yellowbamboo/randisig02.jpg)
Randi's signature on my copy of The Faith Healers

(Again, click on the thumbs to see the full images)

[yellowbamboo]

Why did you not provide a close-up of the envelope?



Okay if you ask nicely we will do so :-)

If you claim that what Joko Tri did was a preliminary test, do you agree that no demonstration took place before the test?


There was no mention in any of our correspondence
or and of jokos correspondence about a demonstration vs preliminary test. The way I read the english on the page means the demonstration and preliminary test are interchangeable.


Can you explain why the waiver was not signed?

No idea- but randi claims it was signed and the signing of the waiver means the waiver supercedes the previous agreement.

Since the waiver is not signed, why should the agreement still be in effect, since Randi - again purportedly - specifically requests that this re-phrasing is accepted by you?


Because the only two documents he signs state otherwise and randi claims the waiver was signed and it supercedes the previous agreement. If the waiver was not signed ity means the previous agreement was not superceded.

Can you explain how a black-and-white photocopy can show a signature in color?


Now this *is* a pretty good question. What we did was take the agreement off the web and photcopy it. We kept a copy and sent one to randi- as you can see it ways jref copy on top.

Obviously randi signed the photocopy of the contract and sent that back to us.


Can you explain why this document is not properly notarized?



You may be assuming that since it was not done the way they do it in denmark- it is done incorrectly. Why not ask a notary expert if it is done correctly.

We are not notary experts- we took our copy to the US embassy
and that is how they did it.


As for Randi signing this, I am perfectly willing to wait with that, until we have these other things cleared. In my next post, I will merely show your examples, compared to the two I have. [/B][/QUOTE]


By why waste my time with your BS? Why not ask randi himself if he signed these document? It would save us wasting our tinme with a maroon like you :-)

YBS

[Patricio Elicer]

yellowbamboo,

I have a simple question regarding the demonstration:

Why didn't you make a wide angle, open and sun-lit video of it? Don't tell me it was because Mr. Tri was late for the appointement.

If Mr. Serensen's powers are real, you could have perfectly waited a few hours to perform the demonstration on the next morning, to clearly show that alleged powers. Why didn't you do that?

[Brian]

This is one of the reasons that I can't call myself a skeptic. I read all this and I just dismiss it as nonsense. All done.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Okay if you ask nicely we will do so :-)

Perhaps you should stop calling me a maroon, then. Please provide a close-up of the envelope.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
There was no mention in any of our correspondence or and of jokos correspondence about a demonstration vs preliminary test. The way I read the english on the page means the demonstration and preliminary test are interchangeable.

They are clearly not.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
No idea- but randi claims it was signed and the signing of the waiver means the waiver supercedes the previous agreement.

Where does Randi claim it was signed? Why is the signature not on your copy of the waiver?

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Because the only two documents he signs state otherwise and randi claims the waiver was signed and it supercedes the previous agreement. If the waiver was not signed ity means the previous agreement was not superceded.

Since the waiver is not signed, it means the previous agreement was not superceded. Thank you.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
Now this *is* a pretty good question. What we did was take the agreement off the web and photcopy it. We kept a copy and sent one to randi- as you can see it ways jref copy on top.

Obviously randi signed the photocopy of the contract and sent that back to us.

Hmmm...let me get this right: You print one copy of the agreement, then walk over to a photocopier to make a copy? Why not just print two copies?

Sorry, this is not a credible explanation.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
You may be assuming that since it was not done the way they do it in denmark- it is done incorrectly. Why not ask a notary expert if it is done correctly.

We are not notary experts- we took our copy to the US embassy and that is how they did it.

You seem to be thinking that US embassies do this differently from country to country. There is nothing on those pages I had made that indicated that it was made in Denmark. I doubt seriously that any US embassy has its own way of doing things. I strongly doubt that a signature would be enough.

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
By why waste my time with your BS? Why not ask randi himself if he signed these document? It would save us wasting our tinme with a maroon like you :-)

It is, of course, always your choice if you do not want to deal with us "maroons". I can understand this, since it is obvious that we have raised some questions you have a very hard time answering.

[MemeHacker]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
They are clearly not.

Yeah, they are.
Go read the million dollar challenge application and you can see that the "tests" are also referred to as "demonstations".

Randi has not once argued this wasn't a preliminary test anyways, you are barking up the wrong tree.
Originally posted by CFLarsen
Hmmm...let me get this right: You print one copy of the agreement, then walk over to a photocopier to make a copy? Why not just print two copies?

Sorry, this is not a credible explanation.
There are a multitude of possible reasons, just because they didn't do it the most likely way hardly means they are lying.

IT's sort of like you getting stumped by, "how could there be color signatures on a black and white photocopy". Everybody knows Randi debunked the so-called supernatural force that keeps blue pens from working on photocopies back in 1994. ;)

Originally posted by CFLarsen
You seem to be thinking that US embassies do this differently from country to country. There is nothing on those pages I had made that indicated that it was made in Denmark. I doubt seriously that any US embassy has its own way of doing things. I strongly doubt that a signature would be enough.

YB stuck by their claim that it's legit and you admit you only "doubt" it. Since they are commited to that signature being legit you could maybe contact the Bali embassy (?) and demand answers. If you are right about the signature you are a hero and get all the maroons you want. :)

I don't see the point of YB being fraudenlent in regard to the Bali consular though, why would YB fake their own signature?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by MemeHacker
Yeah, they are.
Go read the million dollar challenge application and you can see that the "tests" are also referred to as "demonstations".

Hmmm....I can see that there might be some confusion about this. Where does Randi mention that Joko Tri is the official representative of JREF, and where does Randi mention that the test is a preliminary test/demonstration?

Originally posted by MemeHacker
Randi has not once argued this wasn't a preliminary test anyways, you are barking up the wrong tree.

You are turning the logic on its head: Has he specifically said that it was a preliminary test? By using your logic, I have won the million bucks, because Randi has not once argued that I haven't.

Originally posted by MemeHacker
There are a multitude of possible reasons, just because they didn't do it the most likely way hardly means they are lying.

IT's sort of like you getting stumped by, "how could there be color signatures on a black and white photocopy". Everybody knows Randi debunked the so-called supernatural force that keeps blue pens from working on photocopies back in 1994. ;)

Please read my reply: I am asking why YB prints out the document, then go to a photocopier. Doesn't this seem very odd to you?

Originally posted by MemeHacker
YB stuck by their claim that it's legit and you admit you only "doubt" it. Since they are commited to that signature being legit you could maybe contact the Bali embassy (?) and demand answers. If you are right about the signature you are a hero and get all the maroons you want. :)

As far as I know, nobody knows what office was used, so I cannot contact them. This has not been revealed by either Joko Tri or YB. Odd, don't you think?

Originally posted by MemeHacker
I don't see the point of YB being fraudenlent in regard to the Bali consular though, why would YB fake their own signature?

It's not their signature, it's the consular's signature. :rolleyes:

There are simply too many problems with YB: The information has to be dragged out of them, and the pieces just don't fit. If they were sure they had passed, and they had evidence hereof, why not contact the world press? Or at least, lay everything out, for everyone to see.

On the contrary, we see all sorts of maneuvers to avoid the truth from coming out. It still stinks to high heaven.

[MemeHacker]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Hmmm....I can see that there might be some confusion about this. Where does Randi mention that Joko Tri is the official representative of JREF, and where does Randi mention that the test is a preliminary test/demonstration?

Page 2. Joko Tri isn't mentioned by name there, only the role of the person who will conduct the tests appointed by JREF. The waiver specifically mentions Joko Tri and calls it a test, but as you pointed out it isn't signed. I would think whatever Randi said Joko signed September 14th is a critical document that is missing. . .

Also, page 2 and 3 seem to give credit to the Yb's claims about the agreed to protocol but there is no letter back saying they even agreed to Randi's conditions. It would be nice to see the dialog that led up to Randi terminating contact with YB.

Originally posted by CFLarsen
You are turning the logic on its head: Has he specifically said that it was a preliminary test? By using your logic, I have won the million bucks, because Randi has not once argued that I haven't.

In the open letter to Randi YB clearly refers to what transpired as a preliminary test and to Mr Tri as the JREF rep. Randi's response to that letter makes no attempt to debate those points, yet he debates other points very smartly. If Joko Tri wasn't the rep and that demo wasn't a test why didn't Randi clear that up than?

With YB consitently saying it was a preliminary test and that Joko Tri was the JREF rep why has randi not once made it clear that those facts are false if indeed they are?

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Please read my reply: I am asking why YB prints out the document, then go to a photocopier. Doesn't this seem very odd to you?

They print out one copy. Later on they realize they want another one, the orignal internet connected computer isn't as conveinently located as the photocopier so they make a photocopy. It would be odd if I did it for sure, I have computer with BB and a printer handy. However I don't know what YB has easy access to. Alvin has said he had to go internet cafe to get on the web so it seems plausible that just printing out the web page wasn't that conveinent for them. Most importantly, I don't have a sense that you have a coherent theory for why "odd" behavior here discredits them.

Originally posted by CFLarsen
As far as I know, nobody knows what office was used, so I cannot contact them. This has not been revealed by either Joko Tri or YB. Odd, don't you think?

Just did a search on, " Andrew Toth Consular Bali".

U.S. Consular Agency
Jl. Hayam Wuruk 188, Denpasar 80235, Bali, Indonesia
Phone: (62-361) 233-605, Fax: (62-361) 222-426

Andrew F. Toth, Consular Agent
e-mail: amcobali@indosat.net.id

Hours of Operation:
Monday through Friday, 08:00 a.m. - 04:30 p.m.

http://www.usembassyjakarta.org/bali.html

Originally posted by CFLarsen
It's not their signature, it's the consular's signature. :rolleyes:

The only purpose of the consulars signature is to verify that it was really Alvin who signed the document. Why would YB forge a consular's signature when it's only purpose was to verify that Alvin really signed the document?

[lazydaisy46]

QUOTE: "Just one question- if we jump through all the hoops and give you exactly what you want- what exactly do we get in return?

What is the reason to do everything you want here- will it make any difference with randi?" END QUOTE

RESPONSE

Yellow Bamboo, you have raised two very good questions. The answers and "nothing" and "no".

If you are serious, you are wasting your time on this forum. No one here has anything at all to do with investigating or validating your claim or your application. These people make a hobby out of taunting applicants like yourself and arguing with each other. If you are serious, deal only with Randi and stay off this forum.

Of course, if you are a troll, you have come to the right place. You will get plenty of attention here.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by MemeHacker
Page 2. Joko Tri isn't mentioned by name there, only the role of the person who will conduct the tests appointed by JREF. The waiver specifically mentions Joko Tri and calls it a test, but as you pointed out it isn't signed. I would think whatever Randi said Joko signed September 14th is a critical document that is missing. . .

Also, page 2 and 3 seem to give credit to the Yb's claims about the agreed to protocol but there is no letter back saying they even agreed to Randi's conditions. It would be nice to see the dialog that led up to Randi terminating contact with YB.

Yup. Nowhere is Joko Tri connected with this....ordeal. Since YB have shown us all the pages, we can only deduct that he is not.

Originally posted by MemeHacker
In the open letter to Randi YB clearly refers to what transpired as a preliminary test and to Mr Tri as the JREF rep. Randi's response to that letter makes no attempt to debate those points, yet he debates other points very smartly. If Joko Tri wasn't the rep and that demo wasn't a test why didn't Randi clear that up than?

Remember that Randi says that Joko Tri can go on his own?

Originally posted by MemeHacker
With YB consitently saying it was a preliminary test and that Joko Tri was the JREF rep why has randi not once made it clear that those facts are false if indeed they are?

The onus is on the claimant. It is up to YB to show that Joko Tri was connected to this. They have failed to do so.

Originally posted by MemeHacker
They print out one copy. Later on they realize they want another one, the orignal internet connected computer isn't as conveinently located as the photocopier so they make a photocopy. It would be odd if I did it for sure, I have computer with BB and a printer handy. However I don't know what YB has easy access to. Alvin has said he had to go internet cafe to get on the web so it seems plausible that just printing out the web page wasn't that conveinent for them. Most importantly, I don't have a sense that you have a coherent theory for why "odd" behavior here discredits them.

It is odd because of the way the photocopies have been handled. If you don't see it, you don't see it.

Originally posted by MemeHacker
Just did a search on, " Andrew Toth Consular Bali".

Excellent. If you can find it, so can anyone else, YB included. I don't see any official sign, save a signature. This is highly suspicious.

The point of having a document notarized is to verify - officially - that I sign a certain document. I pay for that mark/stamp/whatever-you-call-it-when-you-press-an-imprint-into-a-paper. The signature can be forged. The mark/stamp/whatever is much harder.

Originally posted by MemeHacker
The only purpose of the consulars signature is to verify that it was really Alvin who signed the document. Why would YB forge a consular's signature when it's only purpose was to verify that Alvin really signed the document?

What if he didn't? Hmmm? The document needs to be notarized. There is only a signature.

Stinks. High. Heaven.

[MemeHacker]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Yup. Nowhere is Joko Tri connected with this....ordeal.

Joko tri asked Randi if he could be the volunteer that debunked YB and then took the test, obviosuly he is very connevted. We are missing the very critical emails (or whatever commnunication) between Joko and YB. How Joko presented himself to Yb would be very interesting to see.

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Since YB have shown us all the pages, we can only deduct that he is not.

Actually, I agree completely with you here that what is presented is lacking.

Cerdip made an excellent point earlier which I'll repeat.

"I think we're more interested in seeing the correspondence between YB and JREF/Randi that took place AFTER the 28th June. At least I am. According to Randi's SWIFT postings, the 28th of June was when serious correspondence BEGAN. With said correspondence being terminated sometime with the next month or so, when too many roadblocks were raised by YB.

I'd like to see all YB - JREF/Randi correspondence, not just cherrypicked items."

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Remember that Randi says that Joko Tri can go on his own?

Yup. I find Randi's contradictory statements rather "odd" myself. Because he also said,

"(2) The document Joko Tri signed September 14th stated this condition. It supercedes the previous one.

2 a, b, and c, were my instructions to Joko Tri, not to you. He agreed to those stipulations."

At the point at which JR is giving joko specific instructions to conduct a test and there are signed documents by Randi describing the protocol for a test were JREF will appoint someone later to conduct it YB has very reasonable expectation that Joko Tri is that apponted individual.

I think the problem is that JR really thought YB was going to back out of the test or just fail outright and didn't adequately consider the consequences if Joko was actually knocked down. It's less of a legal issue and more of a common sense one to me. Joko Tri was clearly acting as an agent of the JREF and had direct instruction and requirements for how to conduct the test from JR himself.

Originally posted by CFLarsen

It is odd because of the way the photocopies have been handled. If you don't see it, you don't see it.

It's strange to me how you weaken your arguement against YB by focusing on "odd" details that don't mean anything.
Originally posted by CFLarsen

Excellent. If you can find it, so can anyone else, YB included. I don't see any official sign, save a signature. This is highly suspicious.

The point of having a document notarized is to verify - officially - that I sign a certain document. I pay for that mark/stamp/whatever-you-call-it-when-you-press-an-imprint-into-a-paper. The signature can be forged. The mark/stamp/whatever is much harder.

What if he didn't? Hmmm? The document needs to be notarized. There is only a signature.

Stinks. High. Heaven.
Why would YB have forged the consular's signature/stamp whatever? Why? It only verifies that Alvin signed the document. Are you suggesting that Alvin didn't really sign the document or just that Yb didn't want to pay for the consulars signature so they forged it to save money? I'm really curious as to what you think the reason would be?

And the contract that you are so focused upon only make it clear YB applied to the million dollar challnege, wtf, Randi has already said that anyways.

[CFLarsen]

MemeHacker,

I do not consider the issue of having a color signature on a black-and-white photocopy irrelevant at all. I've explained why. Hey, you don't like it, you don't like it.

I also consider the fact that we cannot see the proper notary stamps/marks/whatever (what IS that term called in English??) highly suspicious.

No signature on the waiver, either.

As well as all the other problems. E.g., the continuous dodging of posting evidence of their claims.

All in all, patterns of deception. You get to recognize them, as you deal with these people over time.

I think there is little doubt that YB has not been able to prove that a proper preliminary test took place, let alone passing it. It should be so easy for them to do so, but alas, no.

Never forget that the onus is on YB. Not on anybody else. It is not up to skeptics to disprove their claims, it is solely up to YB to prove them.

So far, they have failed miserably.

[CERDIP]

There may be less here than meets the eye. But there also may be MORE here than meets the eye at the same time !

Other than simply establishing that there is an agreement as asserted, or at least implied, by the people who have posted in these JREF forums as "yellowbamboo", there is also the issue of establishing that these are indeed the same people who hosted the event that the digital video clip shows.

It seems to me that at least two different people have been posting under the "yellowbamboo" JREF forum account name, if not more.

The lack of sufficient, coherent and complete documentation *could* be due to a situation where the people presenting the material in the forum:

1. are not the people with whom the original correspondence was held, and don't represent them

2. are not the people that hosted the recorded event in Bali, and don't represent them.


In other words, the documents do not sufficiently support either the legitimacy of the claim (to have performed a bona fide prelim test irrespective of the result) of the JREF forum account "yellowbamboo" nor the authenticity of the people using that account.

The documents somewhat support the two contentions, legitimacy and authenticity, but there are gaping holes that leave open the possibility of fraud.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Claus, it's been many years since I've held even an American Passport, so I'm not sure about all documentation, but there is a stamp (not an emboss from a seal like the the notary seal above it) that is in keeping with this being a legal notice of some sort.


Republic of Indonesia.... }
Province of Bali ..............}
City of Denpasar.............}
Counselor Agency of the }
United States of America }


That's what you find in the upper left corner of lawsuits. I'm sorry but the proper name for this escapes me at the moment.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Claus, it's been many years since I've held even an American Passport, so I'm not sure about all documentation, but there is a stamp (not an emboss from a seal like the the notary seal above it) that is in keeping with this being a legal notice of some sort.

Emboss! That's the word...sheesh...I knew that! :)

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
That's what you find in the upper left corner of lawsuits. I'm sorry but the proper name for this escapes me at the moment.

Never been involved in a lawsuit. Steve Grenard threatened me with one, but it never emerged to anything.

[yellowbamboo]

Originally posted by Patricio Elicer
yellowbamboo,

I have a simple question regarding the demonstration:

Why didn't you make a wide angle, open and sun-lit video of it? Don't tell me it was because Mr. Tri was late for the appointement.

If Mr. Serensen's powers are real, you could have perfectly waited a few hours to perform the demonstration on the next morning, to clearly show that alleged powers. Why didn't you do that?


Not a bad question- but it is easy to criticise after the fact.

1. YOu know we never thought of it, the main point was to do it in front of the journalist. It was very very hard to get all of the parties to be there that night as many of us had to travel 4 hours to get there as it was.

2. But you know- even if you would have been there and suggested it- it all would have been for naught cause randi was not happy with teh outcome.

But you can be sure of this- the next test will ONLY be done with randi present and controlling all aspects so he does not have an out when his rep is knocked dowbn this time .

YBS

[Zep]

Yellowbamboo, a question:

Would you also allow a number of other genuine scientists as well as Randi to be present? And for them to examine the area where the test was taking place BEFORE the test was done?

Another question:

What if Randi's test person DOES manage to walk up to Pak Serengan and touch him without falling down. Would you then accept that the whole "Yellow Bamboo" defence mechanism is just a fraud and a lie by Pak Serengan and some of his friends? Please explain your answer, whatever it is.

[wert]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo
[B]


Not a bad question- but it is easy to criticise after the fact.

1. YOu know we never thought of it, the main point was to do it in front of the journalist. It was very very hard to get all of the parties to be there that night as many of us had to travel 4 hours to get there as it was.********.

If all the parties were available that late at night, it's going to be hard to convince me that everyone couldn't have simply went to bed and have done the demonstration first thing in the morning.

This excuse is tired, lame, and totally unconvincing.



But you can be sure of this- the next test will ONLY be done with randi present and controlling all aspects so he does not have an out when his rep is knocked dowbn this time .

YBS Somehow I wouldn't bet the farm on YB passing a proper prelim test with Randi present and in control of the circumstances.

[yellowbamboo]

Originally posted by Zep
Yellowbamboo, a question:

Would you also allow a number of other genuine scientists as well as Randi to be present? And for them to examine the area where the test was taking place BEFORE the test was done?


Sure it is up to randi to organise that and we surely would have no objection.



Another question:

What if Randi's test person DOES manage to walk up to Pak Serengan and touch him without falling down. Would you then accept that the whole "Yellow Bamboo" defence mechanism is just a fraud and a lie by Pak Serengan and some of his friends? Please explain your answer, whatever it is.



Sure I would then go and kick his ass myself :-)


The unusual suspect

[yellowbamboo]

Originally posted by wert
********.

If all the parties were available that late at night, it's going to be hard to convince me that everyone couldn't have simply went to bed and have done the demonstration first thing in the morning.

This excuse is tired, lame, and totally unconvincing.


But who gives a toss what you think? As someone posted here it is totally masturbatory to even talk to you cause you have nothing to do with the test.



Somehow I wouldn't bet the farm on YB passing a proper prelim test with Randi present and in control of the circumstances.


Hiow about if we win you committ suicide?


If we lose one of us does the same?


Are you that sure we will lose, if you are you would do it :-)


THe most unusual suspect

[Brian]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo



Hiow about if we win you committ suicide?


If we lose one of us does the same?


Are you that sure we will lose, if you are you would do it :-)


THe most unusual suspect
"One of us does the same"?
What the hell are you, a hive?

[wert]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo



Hiow about if we win you committ suicide?


If we lose one of us does the same?


Are you that sure we will lose, if you are you would do it :-)


THe most unusual suspect Another bulls**t non answer.

Not surprising at all.

Please enunciate why the test couldn't have been done the following morning.

Or are you going to have us believe that the necessary folks had to leave immediately following the demonstration.

I don't buy it and I don't think too many rational people would.

Of course, expecting rational answers from BS artists like YB is not something we should really expect when you spout nonsense like this "suicide" suggestion.

Bleh.

[Two Possibilities]

This thread is mildly frustrating.

1) YB was in negotiations with Randi about testing. He forwarded documents to them and had email correspondence with them.

2) Randi asked for a rep to go and do the prelimenary test.

3) Randi cut ties with YB for non compliance.

4) Joko Tri contacts Randi stating he would like to be the rep.

5) Randi emails him back saying he "would" accept him as a rep but that he has cut all ties.

6) Joko still wants to go so Randi gives him some advice.

That's it!

The documents being used by YB are from before Randi cut ties with them. Joko is not an official rep. If Joko was, Randi would have stated his named in the documents as the official rep and he would have included in the stipulations that he gave Joko...the test had to be done during the day, he would only have to tap his leg etc.

SO YB, agree to the prelimenary test and Randi will send someone out and will have all the conditions in writing as well as the sanctioned Randi rep. Its that simple.

[yellowbamboo]

Originally posted by Two Possibilities
This thread is mildly frustrating.

1) YB was in negotiations with Randi about testing. He forwarded documents to them and had email correspondence with them.

2) Randi asked for a rep to go and do the prelimenary test.

3) Randi cut ties with YB for non compliance.

4) Joko Tri contacts Randi stating he would like to be the rep.

5) Randi emails him back saying he "would" accept him as a rep but that he has cut all ties.

6) Joko still wants to go so Randi gives him some advice.

That's it!

The documents being used by YB are from before Randi cut ties with them. Joko is not an official rep. If Joko was, Randi would have stated his named in the documents as the official rep and he would have included in the stipulations that he gave Joko...the test had to be done during the day, he would only have to tap his leg etc.

SO YB, agree to the prelimenary test and Randi will send someone out and will have all the conditions in writing as well as the sanctioned Randi rep. Its that simple.



Actually we are in negotiations with randi- either we will go to him or he will come here. That way we can be sure the test is done to his satisfaction.

Thanks for the excellent advice though :-)


Thew most unusual suspects

[Hannibal]

Also, do the test in broad daylight in a well lit gymnasium with only the attacker, defender and cameraman present. Make sure the attempt is video recorded PROPERLY not on a poor digi-camera and also ensure that the whole area of the test is viewable to cutt out accusations of conspiracy.

Better still :

1. Tell someone like Grandmaster Cacoy Canete that he can't hit you with a stick

2. Set up video test as outlined

3. Pick up teeth and report to casualty

4. Don't mention it ever again.....

:)

[thaiboxerken]

Hiow about if we win you committ suicide?


If we lose one of us does the same?


Are you that sure we will lose, if you are you would do it :-)


THe most unusual suspect

Ok, I'll take that wager.

[hgc]

Originally posted by yellowbamboo



Hiow about if we win you committ suicide?


If we lose one of us does the same?


Are you that sure we will lose, if you are you would do it :-)


THe most unusual suspect What kind of a sick f*ck are you anyway? That's the most debased and cynical thing I've ever heard in my life.

Now, let's discuss cutting off fingers and other body parts in this wager. That'll be acceptable.

You scumbag.

Filth.

[PurpleChipmunk]

Just a thought - why should it be necessary for the person doing the test to be carrying a stick, or to even approach Mr Serengen at all?

What if the only 'protocol' was "Just stand over there and try not to fall over"?

[LTC8K6]

You have to have "hate in your heart", whatever that means. Thus the stick and the attack.

Anyhoo, since the person making the test attack knows it is not a real attack, how can he have hate in his heart?

Is fake hate good enough?

[PurpleChipmunk]

Normally yes, but YB's representatives have stated that Mr Serengen (and only he) is capable of doing this stuff regardless of the other person's intentions.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by PurpleChipmunk
Normally yes, but YB's representatives have stated that Mr Serengen (and only he) is capable of doing this stuff regardless of the other person's intentions.

So, no other YB member has ever learned to do this? Hmmm..... :)

[PurpleChipmunk]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


So, no other YB member has ever learned to do this? Hmmm..... :)

I'm only going by what I read on the rec.martial-arts usenet group some months ago, but the story so far is that although almost anyone can learn to repel an attacker who wishes to do them harm, Pak Serengen is the only one skilled enough to be able to knock down someone with no bad intentions.

Perhaps the yellowbamboo poster can clarify this?

(and apologies if this has already been discussed at length here)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by PurpleChipmunk
Perhaps the yellowbamboo poster can clarify this?

I wouldn't hold my breath. We haven't heard from YB for a while now. Seems like YB didn't like the way the "evidence" didn't hold up to skeptical scrutiny... ;)

[PurpleChipmunk]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Seems like YB didn't like the way the "evidence" didn't hold up to skeptical scrutiny... ;)

Well it didn't exactly prove they have superpowers, but to be fair it didn't show the trickery that has been speculated about either.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by PurpleChipmunk

Well it didn't exactly prove they have superpowers, but to be fair it didn't show the trickery that has been speculated about either.
Burden of proof - it did not exclude the possibility of trickery, therefore it is not evidence of anything.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by LTC8K6
You have to have "hate in your heart", whatever that means. Thus the stick and the attack.

Anyhoo, since the person making the test attack knows it is not a real attack, how can he have hate in his heart?

Is fake hate good enough?

This is another part of the claim that eludes me. They say a person has to have "hate in their heart", but... they also have to join the group and do ceremonies with them? I think it would be easier to have "hate in the heart" if you didn't get to know those people.

I guess their superpowers don't work against emotionless assassins. I know a few thaiboxers that would kick their asses without having a bit of anger or hate in their heart.

[CERDIP]

>poke< >poke<

Is this little critter dead ?

[Prolix]

I sure miss hearing from whoever was speaking up for this new and powerful association.

Anyone have any follow-up, other than the YB web site?

[PurpleChipmunk]

Anyone have any follow-up, other than the YB web site?
The YB guy recently made a post in rec.martial-arts, but not about the JREF challenge. He was just pointing out a web site with more YB videos - http://www.martrix.org/video_clips.html

[Groo]

What can you say more than: :D ?

[CERDIP]

...time to stick a fork in it...