How many people would it take to fake the Holocaust

[1337m4n]

We've had a lot of discussion about how many people would have to be complicit in the 9/11 attacks for it to be an inside job.

I encountered some Holocaust deniers on another forum and was starting to wonder the same thing about the Holocaust.

In order for the Holocaust to be a Zionist lie, how many people would have to be "in on it"?

For starters, there's every single survivor who's ever given a speech or written a book about their experiences--and there have been many. Each year I was in high school, I listened to a speech from a Holocaust survivor. Horrifying and sickening tales. They would have to be really, really good actors if they're faking it.

What about every Allied soldier who participated in the liberation of one or more concentration camps?

How many others?

[Cobalt]

Everyone involved in any way, shape, or form, whoever's currently running the Holocaust Museums, and whoever's "faking" the artifacts contained therein...

[Brainache]

For starters there's about six million dead people and their families.

[SDC]

Don't forget the Bad Arolsen archives, just open. So it's time for the conspiracy theory I invented. The reason the Germans lost the war was they diverted huge resources into creating and preserving documents about this so-called "Holocaust."

Seriously, this is one of the best-documented horrors of recent history.

[CFLarsen]

For starters there's about six million dead people and their families.

Yep: First, you'd have to get rid of a heck of a lot of Jews....

[SpitfireIX]

We've had a lot of discussion about how many people would have to be complicit in the 9/11 attacks for it to be an inside job.

I encountered some Holocaust deniers on another forum and was starting to wonder the same thing about the Holocaust.

In order for the Holocaust to be a Zionist lie, how many people would have to be "in on it"?

For starters, there's every single survivor who's ever given a speech or written a book about their experiences--and there have been many. Each year I was in high school, I listened to a speech from a Holocaust survivor. Horrifying and sickening tales. They would have to be really, really good actors if they're faking it.

What about every Allied soldier who participated in the liberation of one or more concentration camps?

How many others?


Not to imply that you were necessarily planning to use this as evidence, but knowing the number won't really help fight denial, because the deniers will simply claim that all (or at least most) Jews are in on it, and that no one has talked because they're all benefiting so much, and they're "Jews first," etc., etc.

Arriving at an estimate could be a somewhat interesting intellectual exercise, though.

[I Ratant]

Yep: First, you'd have to get rid of a heck of a lot of Jews....
.
It's not just about the Jews!
There were many other undesirable categories which made people eligible for the "final solution".
Jehovah's Witnesses... Apparently merely slamming the door in their faces wasn't sufficient in Nazi Germany.
Gypsies.. Couldn't outfox them, but could gas them.
Useless eaters.. Can't work? Then don't eat, ever again.
...
One has to seriously mentally disturbed to deny the Holocaust.

[timhau]

It's not just how many people, but which people. You'd have to start with the Soviets under Stalin.

[The Silver Shadow]

What about the Nazi hunters? They would probably be a gray area...

[ktesibios]

Just off the top of my head...

For starters, every single primary document relating to the Holocaust would have to be forged- literally tons of them.

This wouldn't just be a matter of assembling a staff of expert forgers. For the phony documents to complement and corroborate each other the way that the body of evidence does, the fakery department would need encyclopedic, detailed knowledge of an awful lot of stuff- who worked where at what job and when, who reported to whom in the bureaucratic structure, what vendors sold materials and services to the camp administrations and what prices prevailed at the time, whether the SS habitually paid up on time or had to be dunned...

Just to get the transport records to jibe with records and witness accounts of the arrival of transports at the camps would require a massive job of coordinating and cross-checking. As a simple example, to fake the surviving construction drawings for the Krema complexes at Auschwitz so that they would fool people who knew what they were looking at, you would need artists who could produce drawings completely consistent with 1940s German engineering practice and you would need to insert references to them in other related documents and create a gaggle of supporting material, like materials invoices, progress reports, change orders and suchlike, all of which would have to be consistent with the forged plans.

Then you have the problem of introducing the forged documents into the body of evidence in such a way that their provenance supports their evidentiary value. You've also got to plant them in archives so that they will continue to turn up for decades afterward as researchers looking for other material stumble over them, as Nick Terry wrote about in another thread.

Anyone who can pull that off is fully qualified to take over and run the world, indeed is qualified for deification.

[gumboot]

The sad thing is that the case for hoax, in the eyes of deniers, will improve over time. One day there will be no death camp survivors left alive. One day there will be no liberating soldiers left alive. One day every single human who witnesses this horror first hand will be dead. And at that point, for the most part, the evidence will consist of words on a page. And in the eyes of most people words on a page are easier to fake.

That's why the work of Steven Spielberg's Shoah Foundation is so vital in documenting on film the experiences of those that witnessed the horror first hand.

[Nick Terry]

We tried this one on our experimental subject group of abject morons (aka 'Holocaust deniers') just recently.

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/5970

The problem is, as with Twoofers, that Holocaust deniers cannot agree on what scenario they think happened instead. Different alternative outcomes are posited at differing moments in the argument, in a sort of dynamic-IP fashion, but if we reel them off, we can see that all of them would result in an Impossibly Vast Conspiracy.

First, the denier must decide on how many died and by what means. Extreme nutters will deny everything, so can be ignored. You can only deal with so much insanity in one go, and the not-a-hair-was-plucked-from-a-single-Jew's-head school make no-planers look rational. Honest, they do. Look up a guy named 'Ephraimite' at RODOH.

The more typical 'concession' is to concede about 1 million dead through disease and privation, with some of them shot as 'partisans'. That leaves about 4-5 million Jews alive (deniers are strangely enough not interested in non-Jewish victims, so concede them by default, even though there were many more of them) for them to 'hide'.

The preferred option is to allege that about 1 million, maybe a few more Russian Jews simply ran away ahead of the Germans in 1941. There is no proof of this, but it reduces the scale already. This then triggers Conspiracy #1: the Magically Assimilating Russian Jew. By 1959 and the next Soviet census, these 1 million refugees have vanished. Somewhere. Don't ask me where. Don't, whatever you do, ask them.

That still leaves about 3-4 million to deal with, and these are in essence, the death camp victims. All were 'transported onwards'. So says every single one of the deniers who has waffled around the subject. Treblinka was a 'transit camp'. That triggers Conspiracy #2: the Magically Resettled Jew.

Obviously, everyone in charge from the German side of supervising a presumably gigantic reservation must be in on it, even though it would have acquitted Germany of all the caluminies of Auschwitz etc if only one of the lowly police guards assigned to these invisible camps had come forward after 1945 and said 'I guarded the Jews of Warsaw in Marina Gorka!' or some other obscure Soviet town.

You can calculate two figures for this: the narrower group of guards and officials in charge of these mysteriously unknown camps, and the sum total of German personnel on occupation duty. We'll ignore the locals as they are all lying Bolsheviks according to deniers. The narrow figure is at least 30,000, the bigger group is something like a quarter of a million people. Add in the local inhabitants and we must assume it's more than 1 million in on the conspiracy.

But then - lo, the Russians approach! What to do? Heelp! You're a denier. You have about 3 million Jews and they will soon be discovered unless you hide them. So there are a few options - concede that harsh conditions would have killed some of the deportees off, but waffle about why this doesn't add another 1 million to the already-conceded 1 million dead. Denier math isn't too hot. If they kill off everyone through disease and privation then all they've done is replace Auschwitz with a gigantic Belsen, and that wouldn't do.

So the deniers still have to work out what to do with a couple of million Jews. The options are varied

a) the Jews were liberated by the Russians, who kept quiet about this, and allowed them to emigrate via Iran or China. This triggers Conspiracy #3: the Silent Persian/Chinee/Russian. How many people might have seen these millions pass through their country? They can't all have fitted onto a sealed train. And what of when they made it to the free world? Obviously, we now have Conspiracy #4: Jewish Solidarity.

b) Stalin killed them. This one sounded pretty good to some of the deniers up to about 1990, when they realised that glasnost was actually serious and the USSR was opening the archives. Do we find any trace of the missing millions in the Gulag records? No, we do not. Therefore, if a denier wishes to persist with this angle - and most prefer to waffle away the problem anyhow - they are now alleging that not only are all German records fabricated, but that the entire documentation of the Gulag is, too. Two conspiracies for the price of one!

This is all quite aside from fabricating the evidence for the death camps, ensuring that every SS guard interrogated who admitted knowledge of the gas chambers is kept in line, maintaining pressure on the SS guards and their families until they die, for sixty years, marshalling 1000s of Jewish and non-Jewish witnesses to tell lies, forging 1000s of documents, and of course presumably using some sort of hypnosis on many 1000s of historians who for some strange reason can't see what deniers can supposedly see.

But hey, who knows? Maybe Big Owl has a Historical Department in the NWO - where can I sign up?

:D

[gumboot]

A large number of Germans were executed solely due to their involvement in the Holocaust. Taking a secret to your grave to protect a cause is of course admirable, but you have to ask what that cause was. Nazism? The cause was dead.

Or were all these "German Nazis" actually Jews, willing to sacrifice their lives to secure the Jewish plot with the motherlode of moral high ground?

The irony in that theory is, of course, that if you look around the western hemisphere you'll see that this particular plan has failed utterly, and frankly Jews (specifically Israel) are on the moral low ground in the eyes of most westerners.

[Undesired Walrus]

This for a start.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p297/ldl21/fred.jpg

[moon1969]

Ask David Irving or Deborah Lipstadt. David Duke is allso said that he doesn"t believe in the Holocaust. Oh yeah and David Icke doesn"t believe in the holocaust.