Video of Russian MiG shooting down Georgian UAV

[Big Les]

Dubious politics aside (based on the lat/long co-ordinates, this would appear to be well within Georgian airspace), I have to admit as a student of military matters that this is pretty incredible footage of a 21st century aerial engagement.

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[Tony]

Isn't that technically an act of war?

[Big Les]

I'd say so.

Also, I'm not sure it's actually a MiG. A guy on militaryphotos.net has a point when he says the missile is launched rather far outboard for a MiG-29, which has no wingtip launcher. The Su-27 does, however. Academic as far as the political implications go, but hey.

[jsiv]

Isn't that technically an act of war?
I don't know if I'd say "act of war," but yes, if it happened the way they said it did.

I trust very little of what comes out of Moscow, but I wouldn't automatically take Georgia's word for it either. It's just the latest in the never-ending struggle between Russia and the former soviet republics.


I'd say so.

Also, I'm not sure it's actually a MiG. A guy on militaryphotos.net has a point when he says the missile is launched rather far outboard for a MiG-29, which has no wingtip launcher. The Su-27 does, however. Academic as far as the political implications go, but hey.
But the MiGs do come in configurations with hardpoints very far out, so it's not really proof of anything either way. Unless they have high resolution footage, I suppose.

[Big Les]

That's true - MiG-29M and the later export variants do, but none of these are in Russian service. The length of the wings suggests Su-27 over MiG to me as well.

But it could be a bit of counter-intuitive perspective/relative motion making it look further out. Beyond this we're getting into pareidolia territory, but the general config has to be MiG-29 or Su-27 family.

[mrbaracuda]

Also got some footage over at BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7359514.stm). Impressive high quality I have to say.

[quixotecoyote]

Isn't that technically an act of war?

If I was Georgia I wouldn't call it that.

Not if I wanted to stay Georgia, anyway.

[Akhenaten]

I think the flashing message at the end is good advice. Mastering caution is indeed called for by someone up there. Good shot though, Grigor.

Add another vote for the Sukhoi please.

[mrbaracuda]

If I was Georgia I wouldn't call it that.

Not if I wanted to stay Georgia, anyway.

:D

Am I the only one to think the latter sentence of the guy "Again, in Georgian air space" etc sounded a bit like asking for help? :( Poor Georgia.

[Gurdur]

Am I the only one to think the latter sentence of the guy "Again, in Georgian air space" etc sounded a bit like asking for help? :( Poor Georgia.

Well, of course it was a plea for help. Georgia is trying to make clear it's being monstered by Russia over Abkhazia. The fact that Georgia is being monstered is beyond all doubt, and well-known for years; Russian meddling in all the Caucasian republics is very well known.

[mrbaracuda]

Yea. I saw some Georgian spokesperson on CNN International about an hour ago and he was also, if only subtle, pleading for help and respect. Poor Georgia.

[Big Les]

Some Russians (not the gov) are claiming conspiracy and CG fighter jets. Sigh.

[mrbaracuda]

Some Russians (not the gov) are claiming conspiracy and CG fighter jets. Sigh.

Didn't know the troof movement was Russian! :p

[Darth Rotor]

Isn't that technically an act of war?
If you are looking for an excuse to start a war, you could call it that.

It is certainly an armed act, or an aggressive act, but most politicians are careful about so labeling minor clashes like this.

If one were a Georgian politician, one could make that case that this was an act of aggression (to use a common UN term) but since no state of war exists, it might be precipitous for the Georgian to call it an act of war.

See the ramming of the US P-3 about six years ago by a Chinese Fighter. (Actually, it was a case of a fighter pilot screwing off and screwing up) There is no question that the Chinese fighter was on an intercept mission, and ended up by its actions hitting the P-3.

It could have been construed as an act of war over international airspace, but it was not. It was more or less a "regrettable incident," as was the downing of the Airbus over the Persian Gulf by the USS Vincennes. Even so, much political hay was made of it.

The two governments in the Vincennes incident, in Iran and in the US, correctly deciphered it as a cock up, not as a deliberate act of aggression, even though at the time the two nations were shooting at each other now and again in the Persian Gulf.

If the Georgians are taking the position that the Russians violated their airspace with an armed military jet, that too can be construed as a warlike act, but to call it an act of war seems a bit much.

Back in 2004, there was a reported incursion into the Iranian western ADIZ by a couple of American fighters and their tanker, while refueling and dodging some thunderstorms. It resulted in multiple warnings from Iranian air defense. IIRC, Rummy was on the air apologizing for the screw up within 24 hours, and the Iranians did not classify it as an act of war. They seemed to be content with the apology.

I'll admit, the video presented, it if is genuine, does not support "inadvertent" as a descriptive for the jet's actions.

DR

[Big Les]

Not sure how much of a difference this makes, but supposedly (according to the Georgians) the (clearly Russian, IMO) jet took off from within the secessionist province of Abkhazia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia) (which initially claimed responsibility for the kill despite not operating advanced fighters) and then buggered off to Russia afterwards.

Now my brain hurts.

[Darth Rotor]

Not sure how much of a difference this makes, but supposedly (according to the Georgians) the (clearly Russian, IMO) jet took off from within the secessionist province of Abkhazia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia) (which initially claimed responsibility for the kill despite not operating advanced fighters) and then buggered off to Russia afterwards.

Now my brain hurts.
Les, the angles were a bit tough on me, but I grokked Mig 31 for the attacking jet. Not sure which Su folks think it is. I admit my aircraft visual ID skills have eroded with a lack of practice.

For a laugh at the expense of the UAV pilot, see the band Dos Gringos, and their song

I Shot Down a Predator.

DR

[Big Les]

Dos Gringos are the Viper pilots, right? I have one of their mp3s.

There's definitely some blending of wing and fuselage there, with a very MiG-29/Su-27 shallow fuselage/drooping nose config, and a pretty wide sweeping wingspan. I can (or think I can) make out the nacelled engines slung underneath with the gap between them.

Whereas the 31 is pretty deep in the body, with shorter wings, and the nose of the jet is more upright.

Take a look as the jet passes the landing gear strut on the left of the picture, wings at 90deg. The nose blends back into the forward fuse and wings.

So this is my vote:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/su-27.htm

With this a close second:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/mig-29.htm

The MiG-31 of course, looks like this;

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/mig-31.htm

(Scroll down for pisspoor line drawings, but the salient features are all there)

[Darth Rotor]

Dos Gringos are the Viper pilots, right? I have one of their mp3s.
They put out a second CD, which I have on order.

*sings*

Two's Blind! :D
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/su-27.htm

With this a close second:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/airdef/mig-29.htm

Good show, Les, I'll join you in the vote on the Su-27. I ought to slap myself for not having checked FAS for more pics to help me with the top view VID.

DR

[jsiv]

Well, ignoring all the politics again..

Having played the Youtube video several times now I really don't see what distinctive features make you think it's a Su-27 instead of a MiG-29. I mean, most of the major differences like the tail aren't really very visible. Can you explain?


Now there are certainly political reasons why Georgia would want to lie about which plane it is, but they also have the original high resolution footage without pixelation and blurriness that would make it easier to positively identify the plane -- something we (or at least I) don't have.

[Darth Rotor]

Well, ignoring all the politics again..

Having played the Youtube video several times now I really don't see what distinctive features make you think it's a Su-27 instead of a MiG-29. I mean, most of the major differences like the tail aren't really very visible. Can you explain?


Now there are certainly political reasons why Georgia would want to lie about which plane it is, but they also have the original high resolution footage without pixelation and blurriness that would make it easier to positively identify the plane -- something we (or at least I) don't have.
Well, the angles are a bit tough, but the proportion of the length of plane to the wings seem to me more 27ish.

Again, I are rusty.

DR

[Zygar]

There are a couple frames in which you can clearly see the proportion of the tailfins to the wingspan. That combined with the wing-tip launch make me think it's an Su-27.

[Big Les]

Yes, the MiG has short stubby wings compared to the Sukhoi. And the missile appears to come from either the wingtip or a station just inboard of it.

Both things could be optical illusions, and with my tinfoil hat on it's possible this was a MiG-35 as exported from Russia to Abkhazia - it has the extended wingtips and the extra stores station. But even so, the general proportions suggested by the video still say "Su-27" to me.

[jsiv]

I don't know, I still say the two planes are similar enough in both proportions and design that it's hard to make any positive identification without better footage (which, presumably, is what the Georgian guy is basing his claim on), but oh well.

[Big Les]

Looks like you were right - even the experts (?) at the UN couldn't call it;

http://www.unomig.org/data/other/080526_unomig_report.pdf

Makes me feel better about my aircraft ID skills!