Orangutan attempts to hunt fish with a spear

[Third Eye Open]

Orangutan attempts to hunt fish with a spear
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=562236&in_page_id=1766&ito=1490)
So how big of a deal is this?

Do you think the Orangutan figured this out for himself, or is he just 'copying' humans, as I've heard some say.

[jsiv]

"Orang hutan" means "forest man" in one of Indonesia's many languages and our long-armed cousins do indeed show a remarkable ability to mimic our behaviour.

This individual had seen locals fishing with spears on the Gohong River.

Although the method required too much skill for him to master, he was later able to improvise by using the pole to catch fish already trapped in the locals' fishing lines.
So apparently it was just copying humans, without much success.

[Wauthan]

I'm really not convinced that the ape is trying to spear fish. I've never read of orangutans eating anything other then herbs, fruit and the odd insect.

If he was actually trying to hunt fish he sure picked a really difficult method. My guess is that he's simply playing, since he looks very young. He might be imitating human behavior but he might also just be beating the snot out of the river with a branch, just for the heck of it.

Main problem to draw any conclusions from his behavior is that orangutans are really clever, and seems to have quite an imagination. He could be doing just about anything, including trying to spear fish.

[Careyp74]

I can't think of a single thing that I have ever done that I haven't seen someone else doing first. I wouldn't discount his thinking ability for that. He was able to determine that 'fishermen were catching fish easily with this method, so why not try it myself'

Aren't orangutans known for using sticks to get ants out of logs? Or is that some other primate? Either way, there is a use of a tool that I believe they developed themselves.

[Magic 9-Ball]

Well, the article says: "Although the method required too much skill for him to master, he was later able to improvise by using the pole to catch fish already trapped in the locals' fishing lines." This implies the Orang was trying to get fish, and then actually got them from the fishing lines.

According to the Sumatran Orangutan Society website:

Q: What do orangutans eat?
Their main food is fruit (60%)
Young leaves (25%)
Flowers and bark (10%)
Insects, mainly ants, termites and crickets (5%)
And the occasional egg.

Q: What do orangutans NOT eat?
Meat and fish. They eat eggs but not birds and no other animals.

http://www.orangutancentre.org/factssheetnew.htm


I'm tempted to believe the Orangutan Society over the Daily Mail, but, hey, you never know... :rolleyes:

[bokonon]

The water in the photo is more consistent with "using a stick to make a splash" than "using a stick to spear a fish."

ETA: That's a mighty "speary" looking stick, though. I wonder who gave it to him?

[Michael C]

I have a copy of the book from which this photo is taken (the German version, which is already available). The book is full of fabulous photos and contains a great deal of information: one of the authors is Willie Smits, a world authority on orangutans who founded the Borneo Orangutan Survival (http://www.savetheorangutan.org/) project. Smits says that the orangutans certainly copy humans, but do not simply stupidly repeat the actions they see.

In this case the orangutan not only taught itself how to get fish out of the water, it also ate the fish. Smits relates that it was rapidly copied by other orangutans: there is a photo of one which has apparently just finished eating a tasty morsel of fish and is still holding the fishbone.

Although the diet of orangutans is mainly fruit, they have been seen to eat meat:

In Sumatra, three adult females have been observed on seven occasions to hunt and eat slow lorises, and one female was observed to eat a gibbon. At Gunung Palung, a juvenile female orangutan once caught and ate a rat. (http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~gporang/orangutans.html)

[Magic 9-Ball]

Michael, that's interesting, as the Sumatran and Borneo Societies conflict with each other (Society fight!) Perhaps the populations are different and distinct, and one does, the other doesn't.

But left unsaid is whether they turned to eating meat and fish when there was no food (says they've eaten dirt, too) or it is a common practice? I remember when the news came out that chimps not only eat meat, but hunted for it as well. That caused a stir.

[Michael C]

Apparently it's not common for them to eat meat, and this was the first time that Smits had seen an orangutan eat fish. I'd say that the Sumatran society is being too categoric: just because they hadn't observed an orangutan eating fish does not mean that this never happens.

The point here is that they are adaptable creatures capable of learning both from humans and from other orangutans.

[Dragoonster]

Well, the article says: "Although the method required too much skill for him to master, he was later able to improvise by using the pole to catch fish already trapped in the locals' fishing lines." This implies the Orang was trying to get fish, and then actually got them from the fishing lines.

According to the Sumatran Orangutan Society website:

Q: What do orangutans eat?
Their main food is fruit (60%)
Young leaves (25%)
Flowers and bark (10%)
Insects, mainly ants, termites and crickets (5%)
And the occasional egg.

Q: What do orangutans NOT eat?
Meat and fish. They eat eggs but not birds and no other animals.

http://www.orangutancentre.org/factssheetnew.htm


I'm tempted to believe the Orangutan Society over the Daily Mail, but, hey, you never know... :rolleyes:

No one here has watched "Orangutan Island", on Animal Planet?

In one episode a dry spell left several catfish floundering on the banks of the island. One orang grabbed a fish and ate it, then several joined in.

In a later episode, it showed the locals setting simple fish traps (hooks bouyed by water bottles left to sit). The orangs had previously enjoyed grabbing nearby floating bottles to drink with, and one discovered a fish on the end of the line when he grabbed one from the shore (using a stick I think). He ate the fish and I think a couple more joined.

Primates often use tools for investigating, play, and to extend reach. The orangs in that program had been raised to a year or two in capitivity then released in a controlled environment with regular fruit supplements, but I doubt fish & meat were part of their diet as yearlings. Nothing remarkable about this story, because such behavior and diet is already documented among both orangs and other apes. Whether completely wild or captive, they're not stupid.

[Magic 9-Ball]

Dragoon, I can tell by your Avatar you might have something good to add to this. :)


No, haven't seen Orangutan Island, but do watch Animal Cops. Regardless, this is a good forum to find out the information from those who do know. I'm not surprised Orangs are opportunistic feeders, and have a varied diet.


What I'm interested in, but not surprised by, is the apparent descrepancy between information from supposedly good authority when searching the internet. Especially when you try to avoid references like Wikipedia. I guess a good lesson learned is to check once, then twice, then check again.

[Wauthan]

Cool thread. :cool: I like orangutans. They are my favorite librarians.

I think the Sumatran Orangutan Society listed the foods orangutans favor in "the wild". I've not heard anything about these fellers hunting or scavenging. But I have seen plenty of evidence that they will eat, and gladly steal, human food (and soap).

Seems they're smart enough not to turn down free fish either. :D Heh, thought orangutans didn't like water but it seems I was wrong.

[Michael C]

Seems they're smart enough not to turn down free fish either. :D Heh, thought orangutans didn't like water but it seems I was wrong.

Well, here's one swimming:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1661248176f58db262.jpg

Apparently a few of them have recently learnt to swim and have even got quite good at it. This will certainly give them an advantage if the juiciest fruits are on the other side of the river (aren't they always;)?)

[Dragoonster]

Dragoon, I can tell by your Avatar you might have something good to add to this. :)

They're one of my favorite animals, tied with hippos and jumping spiders :)

No, haven't seen Orangutan Island, but do watch Animal Cops. Regardless, this is a good forum to find out the information from those who do know. I'm not surprised Orangs are opportunistic feeders, and have a varied diet.


What I'm interested in, but not surprised by, is the apparent descrepancy between information from supposedly good authority when searching the internet. Especially when you try to avoid references like Wikipedia. I guess a good lesson learned is to check once, then twice, then check again.

Part of the problem may be in the overly brief Q&A format of those questions. Or, who they're aimed at, they may not want to be bogged down in minutae or occurances that have only been observed a few times. Or they may be assuming a distinction as has been raised here about wild behavior vs. captive vs. some mix of the two.

I'm skeptical of most animal diet claims, I'd think most omnivores and carnivores would indeed eat just about any type of meat in the right circumstances. Well, within the limits of their digestion and intake system.

And of course I could be kind of generally wrong and those orangutans were fed fish or taught to eat it before their release, and we just weren't shown it. Sorry if I was being snippy!

If you can catch some of that show I recommend it. It's hardly a pristine environment and certainly not wild subjects but the orangs did a lot of interesting stuff.

Speaking of animal diets and TV shows, I was surprised watching a show a few days ago about some parrots in South America. They would fly onto the backs of domestic or semi-domestic sheep, and drill down through their skin to eat the fat near their kidneys. That was disturbing and seemed pretty un-parrotlike!

Seems they're smart enough not to turn down free fish either. Heh, thought orangutans didn't like water but it seems I was wrong.

I suspect your right, they can't swim (oops, wrong there, nice pic Michael!) and most appeared nervous around water. Some in the group may have overcome a natural aversion because their fruit resupplies and checkups were made by riverboat, so they'd come to the edge to see what was going on. There were a few who spent casual time wading, poking snakes with sticks, and grabbing things that floated by (with hands or sticks), in addition to the fish.

Unfortunately the one death on the show was one who apparently got in over her head at the river (or maybe fell from an overhanging branch), she was found floating in it after a day or two of being missing.

[I Ratant]

Wait'll they find out about dynamite!
Makes fishing a lot simpler! :)

[Mister Agenda]

My understanding is orangs are too muscular to be GOOD swimmers...too heavy for their volume to float, so they have to use more energy to swim, and sink when they stop. On the other hand, some seem to be pretty fat.

[TellyKNeasuss]

So apparently it was just copying humans, without much success.

The "without much success" clause proves that the orangutan was just copying humans. If it had been successful at fishing, then it couldn't possibly have been copying a real fisherman.

[Michael C]

The "without much success" clause proves that the orangutan was just copying humans. If it had been successful at fishing, then it couldn't possibly have been copying a real fisherman.

That's a strange piece of reasoning. Of course the orangutan is copying human fishermen. This is what humans do, to learn how to fish. I imagine that the first time a human being tries to fish by copying the actions of an experienced fisherman, it doesn't have much success either.

Why do you say "just copying humans"? Does this mean that you consider the whole thing to be no big deal, or maybe that the orangutan was aimlessly repeating actions it had seen, without any comprehension? Note that the orangutan did have success in the end: it worked out that it was easier to spear the fish that were already caught in the fishermen's nets. It also ate the fish. It had learnt to do something it had never done before, in much the same way as a human would do.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Aren't orangutans known for using sticks to get ants out of logs? Or is that some other primate? Either way, there is a use of a tool that I believe they developed themselves.

That would be chimps and termites, but yep.

[robinson]

That's a strange piece of reasoning.

Not to a fisherman. It is humor. Subtle, but recognizable, to one who has fished.

[I Ratant]

Not to a fisherman. It is humor. Subtle, but recognizable, to one who has fished.

.
Them city guys! :)

[Dragoonster]

I may have gotten carried away in citing that show due to my Orangubias. While I think most of it is valid in demonstrating their abilities, I saw an episode the other day and it's hard to tell how heavily edited it is or isn't. The fish trap thing for example, they could easily have simply altered their location one day, placing a ton of traps within the Orang's reach, and the naturally curious beasts would have checked it out.

I don't think they threw a bunch of catfish on a bank and then whistled to them though, that seemed legit behavior. And the orangs were eating the hell out of the fish, looked pretty tasty.

Hehe, I got that fisherman joke too, but was too embarrased to reply due to its accuracy :o

[robinson]

On the matter of diet, it might be like many omnivores, they take what they can get.

It wasn't that long ago we thought Chimps were peaceful vegetarians. But after observation, they turned out to be not only monkey eaters, but quite the hunters as well. Who knows what is really going on with them primates.

I bet they would eat a double cheeseburger if they could get one.

[Careyp74]

I may have gotten carried away in citing that show due to my Orangubias. While I think most of it is valid in demonstrating their abilities, I saw an episode the other day and it's hard to tell how heavily edited it is or isn't. The fish trap thing for example, they could easily have simply altered their location one day, placing a ton of traps within the Orang's reach, and the naturally curious beasts would have checked it out.

I don't think they threw a bunch of catfish on a bank and then whistled to them though, that seemed legit behavior. And the orangs were eating the hell out of the fish, looked pretty tasty.

Hehe, I got that fisherman joke too, but was too embarrased to reply due to its accuracy :o

I saw the episode you are citing. Didn't look like they were staging. Regardless, the 'tans were eating fish, so.... yes, I guess they eat fish.

[skeptigirl]

Here's a bit more of an authoritative comment on the article. (http://primatology.net/2008/04/29/orangutan-photographed-using-tool-as-spear-to-fish/)

[Michael C]

Here's a bit more of an authoritative comment on the article. (http://primatology.net/2008/04/29/orangutan-photographed-using-tool-as-spear-to-fish/)

At least references are given. If the writer of the article had actually read the papers referenced, maybe they wouldn't have written this nonsense:

One unique thing to clarify is that only Sumatran orangutans have been observed to use tools, not orangutans from Borneo.

In the third paper referenced at the end of the article, they could have read (for example) that Orangutans in Kutai (Borneo) have been observed to use leaves to amplify the sounds they make with their lips, used detached sticks to scratch body parts or used leaves to wipe the latex off their chins after eating latex-rich fruit.

[Gevaudan]

Even gorillas will eat meat in captivity, I'm not surprised orangs will eat fish if they can catch it. Meat is a much richer source of protein than most of their food sources, so it's probably a treat for an animal that's basically still more omnivore than not.