Human Evolution, Fossil Evidence, Scientific Theory

[Hellkat9940]

My mother is a creationist, and in a discussion we had this morning, she stated that she is willing to look at the fossil evidence for human evolution, but does not believe there to be any, or very much.

She stated that we have all sorts of evidence for dinosaurs and such, even though we were never around to see them. But that we don't have much evidence in comparison for stating that there were humans around before modern humans.

I did correct her about humans descending from apes, however.

So what I'm wondering is if any of you out there have any links to articles (preferably with pictures) that show the current scineitific support of human evolution.

She also thinks that Evolution is 'just a theory' and my attempt to explain it to her by saying that that's basically as good as you can get with science, by stating that gravity and the germ theory of disease are also 'just theories.' But she says that we can prove them, and that we can;'t prove evolution like we can germs and gravity.

Some articles on those would also be very helpful.

Seeing as how folks on the JREF board are quite used to hitting people over the head with massive amounts of knowledge, I figured I'd ask, rather than having to wade through the masses of webpages to find out what's good information and what isn't.

[kerikiwi]

I would ask people who do not accept the fact of evolution if they believe, instead, that all species extant now, simply sprang into being from nothing. A case of now you don't see it, now you do.
That is the only alternative to evolution.
As to the idea of 'just a theory', my good old paper dictionary gives 5 definitions of 'theory', and the fifth is : 'popularly, a mere conjecture or guess'.
This is the meaning used by people who cannot grasp the other meanings.

[Wowbagger]

Lots of stuff here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
Perhaps that was too much.

Here are a small number of highlights from that thing:
Prominent Fossils: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html
Time table (w/links back to fossils): http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html
An interesting skull find: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/d2700.html
This is always fun to show: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/compare.html

The following is not directly related to your request, but gives at least 29 pieces of evidence for "macroevolution", and the predictions that were tested that lead to them: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
It's a good response to people who claim evolution does not make any predictions.
So is this shorter piece: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA210.html

Finally, for folks who are totally unfamiliar with anything to do with Evolution, here is a great site for beginners: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=41
Which is from this site, with more newbie-style info: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

[Hellkat9940]

I've shown her the skull pics before and she said, "So what? You can't tell a horse from a zebra just by the bones, either."

[Reality Check]

I've shown her the skull pics before and she said, "So what? You can't tell a horse from a zebra just by the bones, either."
Actually you can - in general zebra are smaller than horses and so have smaller bones.

[Hellkat9940]

Which she says could be a small pony. Bleh.

Nevermind, forget it. Somehow she's gotten it into her head that cats and dogs have to be able to produce viable offspring in order for evolution to be true. Her arugement is that there were created kinds that only breed within their particular kind.

She locked herself in the bathroom in order to end the argument when I explained to her how you get from ameoba to human.

By 'you' I refer to a species, not to an individual creature.

Going along as a single celled organism, essentially cloning yourself through parthenogenesis, having all the mutations build up, changing things, adding things, subtracting things, until your DNA says to not spit off this cloned cell, and then you have a multicellular organism.

Going from there you go on and on, your two cells dividing and making other two celled organisms, three celled, and so on, and then eventually you run into circumstances
where just gathering mutations isn't working fast enough. So you find something a bit like you that seems to handle the place a bit better, and you trade genetic material, and the new offspring that are made are better suited to things. That works quicker and better than just gathering mutations.

So the better you are at trading information and making more adaptable offspring, the better your genes are to surviving in an environment. So you've gone from a single celled, self-doubling organism, to a multi-celled, sexually reproducing organism.

I used an example of what has been seen in a lab, with viruses or bacteria, not sure which it was, swapping genetic material, but not sexually reproducing. That was when she said "But it's still a bacteria" and went into the bathroom.


So I started yelling through the door about my explanation of ring species.

You've got a big, round island, and a big, huge mountain that a bird can't fly over, only around. So you have a bird species at 6 o'clock, referring to the position of hands on a clock. They fly over and the family populations eventually make some birds that are a little bit different, but still able to interbreed with 6 o'clock, but they look different enough that they're not quite the same.

These birds live at 7 o'clock. And the same thing happens. A population just a little bit different than 7 and certainly a bit more different than 6. IT's all cool, they can breed with 6 and 7. 8 moves around and they get even weirder still, so now some 9 o'clock birds exist. They don't come into contact with 7 very much, but they can still breed.

Further around the clock you go, the weirder the birds get when you compare 'em to 6 o'clock. Eventually, at 1 o'clock, you get some birds that no matter how they try, can't produce offspring with 6 o'clock. But the 1 o'clock birds can breed with the 11 and 12 o'clock birds, who can breed with the 10 and 9 o'clock birds on back.

Thus creating species that can't interbreed. Which she says is somehow evidence of creation since the birds are still breeding with birds.

I don't know how she can't understand that once you get something that is different enough from something else, that they can't have babies, that they're no longer the same 'kind' anymore, but you can have a link back through similar 'kinds' until you get back to the thing you started with.

I explained the recent discovery of the lizards that had evolved in 30 some years to go from insectivores to herbivores and that in order to find anything even close to the stomach valve they gained, you had to go back up through the branching species, and down a completely different line.

She accepts that there are species trees, and somehow manages to conclude that the gene to make the stomach valve was somehow there all the time, despite none of that particular lizard species or their ancestors having that capability before. But some lizard, somewhere having the ability somehow means that it was a pre-programed genetic variant.

Blargh.

[Roboramma]

I would ask people who do not accept the fact of evolution if they believe, instead, that all species extant now, simply sprang into being from nothing. A case of now you don't see it, now you do.
That is the only alternative to evolution.

Isn't this the same sort of argument the ID people make - "you can't tell me exactly how it happened, therefore you are wrong. Thus, I must be right."
The fact that we don't have an alternate explanation doesn't make our explanation correct - the strength of the evidence supporting it does.

[Eos of the Eons]

She has been taught that evolution is ridiculous and evil. If you change your mind and learn about it, then that makes the people who told you evolution is ridiculous and evil wrong and even liars. But that can't be. These are people of god, and god people are not wrong or liars, only atheists are wrong and liars. So, if I have to believe evolution is not dumb and evil, then I have to believe... ergh, that god people are capable of lying and are no better than evil evil hellbound atheists!!! Oh nos!

What? evolution is not saying there is no god? Huh? but the god people say that evolution says there is no god. The god people wouldn't lie, so evolution is a lie, and it DOES say there is no god, and not thinking evolution is evil makes you an atheist. You will not trap me in your path of evil, therefore I will NOT listen to anything about evolution anymore and will go hide in the bathroom!

[kerikiwi]

Isn't this the same sort of argument the ID people make - "you can't tell me exactly how it happened, therefore you are wrong. Thus, I must be right."
The fact that we don't have an alternate explanation doesn't make our explanation correct - the strength of the evidence supporting it does.

Not at all.
There are only two possibilities: either species sprang into existence as they exist now, or they evolved.

[CurtC]

She has been taught that evolution is ridiculous and evil. If you change your mind and learn about it, then that makes the people who told you evolution is ridiculous and evil wrong and even liars.

This is exactly the thought process that launched me down the road to staunch atheism 27 years ago. Once someone forced me to learn about evolution, it was plain I had been lied to for my first 20 years of life. What else could they be saying without justification?

[shadron]

You are essentially trying to start a process that will ultimately tear down her whole world view, if it goes to fruition. If you really succeed, you may be sorry. If you can get her to the point where she accepts evolution enough that she doesn't spit on your footprints, then perhaps you ought to be happy with that.

The road to becoming an atheist (which this may not be, but is where she sees it going) is not always a happy one, nor one that comes overnight. Many despair over the loss of the connections they had before, and the grandeur of the universe is often not enough recompense. Don't push it; let it trickle. A gentle discussion now and then; a NOVA program once in a while. A night out looking at the stars. Let her go on about god's creation, while you tell her about some of the nuts and bolts. Let her make the connections. This is your mother; she remembers you in more embarrassing positions than you can shake a stick at. She may not be able accept you as her teacher (particularly if you act like one), but perhaps she can handle a friend, or "my smart son/daughter".

Another thing you need to do is to examine your own stake in this. She's certainly not going to atheist's hell if she doesn't believe, so why all the pressure? What is it to you? Mormons have pressure to convert family; generally (as far as I can guess) you do not.

My grandmother died a Christian Scientist when I was in high school, and she was at peace with everything. There was no reason that I can think of anyone needed to change her, and so we (namely my Dad) didn't even try.

[Hellkat9940]

My concern is primarily because she's pushing it onto my younger siblings, to the point of keeping them in a poorly run Christian private school because she doesn 't want them to go to public school and learn about evolution.

[shadron]

My concern is primarily because she's pushing it onto my younger siblings, to the point of keeping them in a poorly run Christian private school because she doesn 't want them to go to public school and learn about evolution.

OK, then I'd guess you do have a stake. A thousand pardons for my sharpness earlier. Have you approached them about this? How do they feel? How old are they? Personally, I attended Catholic school for 3rd through senior undergrad, but it was catholic and never negative about science. If they have good minds and good sources they can pull through, and they haven't yet got the emotional investment your mother has in fighting the monkey.

Work with them, but don't break the family over it. Best yet, shine at whatever you do, and be an example to them.

Jees, I sound like my 90 year old father when he was 60. Damn.

[Asolepius]

My concern is primarily because she's pushing it onto my younger siblings, to the point of keeping them in a poorly run Christian private school because she doesn 't want them to go to public school and learn about evolution.That is by far the most forceful argument. She is practising child abuse and that should not be allowed to continue.

But you are not likely to change her by logical argument. I have had similar discussions with my mother, who is not quite a creationist but is a devout Christian. My mum thinks faith conquers all, so logic and evidence simply don't enter the equation - which reminded me of Steve Gould's rather silly NOMA concept. The deep flaws in her theology are simply not addressed - she told me that the truth will be revealed when we get to heaven. Well I'm not holding my breath. :D

[Travis]

Mom's can be difficult. Mine is a Mormon who thinks that archaeological evidence of an Israelite Civilization will eventually be found in South America.

Sigh..... but she's your mom and she loves you even though she knows you're an atheist.

Oh well.



ETA my mom does believe in evolution though.

[Asolepius]

Mom's can be difficult. Mine is a Mormon who thinks that archaeological evidence of an Israelite Civilization will eventually be found in South America.

Sigh..... but she's your mom and she loves you even though she knows you're an atheist.

Oh well.

ETA my mom does believe in evolution though.Hm....is it my subjective impression or is this more of a problem with mothers than with fathers?

ETA - just ducking below the parapet......

[Wowbagger]

You can't tear down someone's world view, without allowing them to build up a replacement.

Perhaps a different strategy might help: Instead of arguing about evolution, take a break from that particular subject, for a while. Open her eyes to other forms of science: physics, chemistry, astronomy, etc. Stuff that is not controversial. (If she is a YEC, then geology might be controversial).

Demonstrate to her the experiments and testing procedures that go on, in general, through science.

Slowly build up the case of how all this culminates into life-preserving studies, such as medical research and animal conservation. Reinforce that science provides the best course for developing stuff that works.

And, when you are both ready, you can introduce the Theory of Evolution as one of the key components in modern medical research, that has been saving countless lives for decades.

But, perhaps the first step would be an apology: Tell her you are sorry for bringing up this subject that gets her angry, that you won't discuss it again (for a long time), and in the mean time, perhaps there are some more fun and constructive things you can both look at, in the name of science.

At every opportunity, let her make discoveries that could allow her to transform her own world view.

[NobbyNobbs]

Regardless of whose advice you take, I can pretty safely say that yelling through the bathroom door is not the ideal method.

:D

[Travis]

Regardless of whose advice you take, I can pretty safely say that yelling through the bathroom door is not the ideal method.

:D

I concur. Rational conversation is pretty much out of the picture by that point.