Vaccines

[Ed]

I put this here because it is reverse woo-wooism. Some idiots take things with no effect and others refuse things with an effect. What they have in common is the call of the Woo hanging on the frosty night air.

NYT Today:

Refusal of Vaccination Cited in Whooping Cough Outbreak
By RICHARD PÉREZ-PEÑA

Published: October 7, 2003


Westchester County health officials are scrambling to contain an outbreak of whooping cough, which the health commissioner said yesterday began with children whose parents had refused to have them vaccinated.

In the last two months, the county Health Department reported, 17 children and 2 adults in Cortlandt and Peekskill have contracted whooping cough, a bacterial infection formally known as pertussis. Once a common ailment and a leading killer of infants, whooping cough became rare in developed countries after the introduction of a vaccine in the 1940's.

[Bikewer]

There are widespread rumors and urban legends to the effect that vaccines cause various diseases and conditions, notably Autism.

One these things get "into the system", it's very hard to root them out. Lever Brothers spent millions trying to dispel the rumored Satanism connection, to little effect.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Bikewer
One these things get "into the system", it's very hard to root them out. Lever Brothers spent millions trying to dispel the rumored Satanism connection, to little effect.

P&G

[BTox]

Originally posted by Ed
I put this here because it is reverse woo-wooism. Some idiots take things with no effect and others refuse things with an effect. What they have in common is the call of the Woo hanging on the frosty night air.



Similar outbreaks have occured with measles after like-minded fools thought vaccines were dangerous or unnecessary.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Ed


P&G

But that one is true, they really are the big Satan ;)

[Suezoled]

Now really, who wouldn't forsee this happeneing? People who refused vaccines would have outbreaks of easily preventable illnesses in heavily populated areas. Those 1 or 2 who weren't vaccinated when 99% of the population was were benefitting from herd immunity. Since a good deal of the "herd" jumped on the non-vaccine bandwagon, of course there would be trouble. Now, I'm wondering how many people will miss the Main Idea (elementary school reference) and blame something other than their lack of decent prevenative measures? How many will try homeopathic remedy to cure their precious offspring?

One word: Baka. (It's Japanese for Idiot. Fool. Stupid.)

[reprise]

My youngest daughter was born in a region where pertussis is endemic and herd immunity is low. During my pregnancy my doctor and I discussed many times how we were going to approach the issue of vaccination in light of my middle child having reacted severely to the pertussis vaccine. I was particular concerned about how vulnerable an unimmunised baby would be to contracting pertussis given the region in which we were living and the time of year at which my baby was due.

For a number of reasons, we decided against test dosing and my daughter received the standard paediatric dose of pertussis vaccine in her triple antigen vaccination at six weeks of age. Her reaction was even more severe than her sister's had been. One thing which was made very clear to me at the hospital where her reaction was treated (apart from the fact that she should never again receive pertussis vaccine) was that while the immunisation protocol is designed primarily to reduce the number of under twos contracting pertussis, even in infants it is a disease which modern medicine can readily treat.

I am not suggesting that people not have their children immunised against pertussis, but rather that increased consumer awareness about the limitations of vaccines and how medically manageable they are when they occur might influence the decision of parents not to vaccinate just as much as any ill-founded anti-vaccination campaigns.

Outbreaks of pertussis in teenagers and adults are not particularly uncommon here. The last immunisation against pertussis is given at school entry age and by their early teens many people no longer have significant immunity against infection. By the time the illness is identified in a particular patient, it is generally past the period during which they are infectious and during which antibiotic treatment would be of benefit. The major reason for issuing public notices of an incident of infection is so that those who have not yet been immunised can be isolated from potential sources of infection.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Natural Selection at work...

[Suezoled]

I am not suggesting that people not have their children immunised against pertussis, but rather that increased consumer awareness about the limitations of vaccines and how medically manageable they are when they occur might influence the decision of parents not to vaccinate just as much as any ill-founded anti-vaccination campaigns.

Very true. I suppose I just bought Ed's presentation of reverse woo-wooism. The news clip only says the parents refused to have them vaccinated.

However, even if parents have correct consumer information, if they choose not to vaccinate, they must expect outbreaks or at least vulnerability and be prepared to act accordingly. Am I the only one who has the indication the parents were not ready for this outbreak?

Also, Reprise: Your avatar is SOOO ADORABLE! I have to resist the urge to kiss the screen when I see its wee little fuzzy head and peeking out.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
Natural Selection at work...

Not really, it's more than that as they are placing other people in danger. If they only killed themselves, I wouldn't care. The parents should be jailed and the "homeopaths" or other woo-woo witch doctors that gave the "no vaccination" advice should be also.

[reprise]

Originally posted by Suezoled


Very true. I suppose I just bought Ed's presentation of reverse woo-wooism. The news clip only says the parents refused to have them vaccinated.

However, even if parents have correct consumer information, if they choose not to vaccinate, they must expect outbreaks or at least vulnerability and be prepared to act accordingly. Am I the only one who has the indication the parents were not ready for this outbreak?

Also, Reprise: Your avatar is SOOO ADORABLE! I have to resist the urge to kiss the screen when I see its wee little fuzzy head and peeking out.

My avatar is a feather glider, a tiny Australian marsupial.

I think that because so many outbreaks of diseases against which we vaccinate are either mild or "invisible", even when people do realise that those outbreaks will occur they don't necessarily perceive them as posing any substantial risk to the health of their own families.

Many people really don't see any need to vaccinate against diseases they perceive as having been eradicated (and to some extent health authorities are to blame for this), and many are just plain fed up with an ever expanding recommended immunisation schedule - especially one which has expanded to include many childhood diseases which most people experienced as children themselves without complications.

Knowing the price of some vaccines which are recommended but only supplied free of charge by the government under certain conditions, I suspect that cost is also an issue for parents in some places. If my youngest daughter is absent from school or suffering an acute illness on the day that Meningococcal C vaccinations are given at her school - for instance - the vaccine will not be available to her free of charge until 2006. It will cost me $500 to have her vaccinated by our GP before then.

[Eos of the Eons]

Come on reprise. My kids have the same amount of shots as 10 years ago! You still have a slant to your posts that I find disturbing, I just have to be honest here.

How truly deadly is pertussis compared to vaccine reactions? How easily are reactions treated compared to the actual disease. You haven't said what kind of reaction it was, sorry to hear, but I'm sure it was less harmful to the child than pertussis.

It's this slant saying that the diseases are easily treatable that gets the outbreaks going. Then some kids die needlessly.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It is the babies that need the protection, and it is the children that spread the disease. This is the target group to keep immunized to prevent outbreaks. Adults that are vaccinated do not cause outbreaks, and they don't spread the disease around. It is the unvaccinated kids where it all starts from.

Then the babies are at risk when that can be prevented. It's darn sad that this happens, but I hope people learn a lesson from it.




Pertussis causes:
Pneumonia: 1 in 8
Encephalitis: 1 in 20
Death: 1 in 200

DTaP VACCINES:

Continuous crying, then full recovery: 1 in 1000
Convulsions or shock, then full recovery: 1 in 14,000
Acute encephalopathy: 0-10.5 in 1,000,000
Death: None proven


No deaths compared to 1 in 200 hundred. There are kids that are going to die.

Get the darn vaccines.

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/6mishome.htm#Diseaseshadalready

I can go to walk in clinics and get the vaccines free every friday. All the vaccines free.

Oh, and with 1 in 20 kids getting encephalitis from the pertussis outbreak, we're going to see a rise in autism in that area.

[Suezoled]

I'm a sucker for an adorable avatar. :)

So, even assuming the parents did have decent consumer information, they made their decisions. Now they get to live with them. If they were unprepared for the lack of herd immunity because they were not the only ones to not vaccinate, outbreaks happen. It still seems the parents weren't prepared, though.

Who wants to bet that the ones who are most ill will be the ones who weren't vaccinated, and the ones who are okay or have very light cases were the onces who are? It's tough what happened to these kids, but it's another argument for it.

I like to be up to date on my vaccinations. If I bite someone, I could give them rabies otherwise. ;) Or tetanus.

Actually, when I worked at a vet clinic for a while, I had rabies innoculations. I had an allergic reaction to the final injection; a mild fever. I knew I could expect such a thing, though, because the medication had been tested and this was a possible side- reaction. It was monitored accordingly and everything was fine.

[Suezoled]

This is just another attempt by pro-vaccine baby killers to shoot them kids up with more drugs! Chemicals! EVIL! EVIL!

Sorry... couldn't resist. :p

[Denise]

What about Rubella? Not only is it dangerous to a person that contracts it, but if a woman who is pregnant contracts it her fetus may develop birth defects.

[Eos of the Eons]

Chances are higher that the parents were taken in by woo sites and woo books on the subject. My friend was. She stopped talking to me because I get my kids vaccinated (poisoned). It's so retarded that she believes a quack woo woo who has been behind bars.

This is her hero, and she sells his oils:

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/young.html

And this is her favorite site to hang at:

Biggest pack of woo woo lies EVER (http://mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?threadid=90562) !!

Hilary is a woo from new zealand. She spouts crap that is so full of it that you know she makes half of it up. Everything she says is woo wooism at its worst. My friend eats it up. Check out what the woo woo says on HIV...that it's really a big conspiracy.

She also says polio is natural to the human body, and that vaccines caused it to become deadly.

You can see the echoes of these lies in all her posts. Especially the one above about whooping coughs. She manages to blame vaccines for EVERYTHING!


More on that whacky whack Here (http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/Vaccinations.html)


Oh, and I love her site where she says Jenner is a con artist.

Yes, she believes it is better to get immunity by risking death by getting it 'naturally', and says vaccines don't work at all, and they just weaken the immune system and make you more vulnerable to the 'common' diseases-like pertussis and polio.

The idiot doesn't even know how the vaccines work. They are just bad. That's it.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Suezoled
This is just another attempt by pro-vaccine baby killers to shoot them kids up with more drugs! Chemicals! EVIL! EVIL!

Sorry... couldn't resist. :p

I'm glad to see some people can joke around, this all makes me mad :p

Yes, you have a handle on the conspiracy! Yes, it's all lies, or the pertussis outbreak is to celebrated since everyone who gets it will get 'natural' immunity...cause those vaccine chemicals only give you fake and weak immunity.

***turns purple***

Ahh, end rant.

[reprise]

Actually EoE, adults DO spread pertussis around. The outbreaks which occur here generally occur in teenage and adult populations, as the immunity conferred by vaccination is not lifelong and starts to drop off around adolescence. In these populations, pertussis is not generally a significant enough illness for them to stay at home in bed and so the risk of them exposing others to the disease during their infectious period is very real.

If doctors tell me that my child should receive no further doses of a particular vaccine, I am not going to argue with them. The reason why a severe reaction to a test or first dose contraindicates further doses is because the reaction to further doses is likely to be more extreme. In the case of both of my daughters, the risk of brain and systemic damage from an escalating reaction to further doses of the vaccine was higher than the risk of them contracting pertussis during the critical first 12 months of their life and that infection causing disability.

When I was a child the childhood immunisation schedule was pertussis, diptheria, tetanus and polio vaccines in early childhood and rubella and tuberculosis vaccines in high school.

The current recommended immunisation schedule in Australia is pertussis, diptheria, tetanus, polio, Hepatitis B, HiB, measles, mumps, rubella, meningococcal C and chickenpox in early childhood. Meningococcal C vaccine is not yet free of charge to all Australians and chickenpox vaccine is not available free of charge to anyone.

We have a whole generation of people in Australia who have never been vaccinated against tuberculosis. We have several generations which haven't been vaccinated against smallpox. Vaccination against those diseases is no longer cost efficient, and cost efficiency drives a lot of public health programmes including those related to vaccination.

[Eos of the Eons]

Umm, maybe not yet...

Here is a nice post on homeopathy on that anti-vaccine mothering site

Homeopathic remedies act on a deep energetic level, and are potentized solutions (which can be then administered as liquid or pills) that are made by diluting then percussing or shaking, a wide variety of different substances to make each individual remedy. Usually a specific symptom pattern is matched to the symptoms the particular remedy would cause in a healthy individual. As far as vaccination goes Thuja is a remedy that is very often needed after vaccination and matches the symptom pattern of side effects (there are other remedies too but in this case it might be better to consult a homeopathic practitioner if other symptoms develop.) So giving the Thuja preventively can help prevent the symptoms ever developing, while still getting a healthy immunity. Some homeopaths do not do this, but I think it is worth while, and is deeper acting than Vit C but fine to use both together. Hope this makes sense, homeopathy is complicated! I am actually an animal homeopath (vet) but we had to learn about humans too, as that is where homeopathy was developed by Samuel Hahnemman.

http://mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?threadid=90660

:mad:

Argh!! **turns double purple**

"I'm a homeo-vet, but take this advice for humans..."

***GACK!***


He he, that was fun.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by reprise
Actually EoE, adults DO spread pertussis around. The outbreaks which occur here generally occur in teenage and adult populations, as the immunity conferred by vaccination is not lifelong and starts to drop off around adolescence. In these populations, pertussis is not generally a significant enough illness for them to stay at home in bed and so the risk of them exposing others to the disease during their infectious period is very real.

If doctors tell me that my child should receive no further doses of a particular vaccine, I am not going to argue with them. The reason why a severe reaction to a test or first dose contraindicates further doses is because the reaction to further doses is likely to be more extreme. In the case of both of my daughters, the risk of brain and systemic damage from an escalating reaction to further doses of the vaccine was higher than the risk of them contracting pertussis during the critical first 12 months of their life and that infection causing disability.

When I was a child the childhood immunisation schedule was pertussis, diptheria, tetanus and polio vaccines in early childhood and rubella and tuberculosis vaccines in high school.

The current recommended immunisation schedule in Australia is pertussis, diptheria, tetanus, polio, Hepatitis B, HiB, measles, mumps, rubella, meningococcal C and chickenpox in early childhood. Meningococcal C vaccine is not yet free of charge to all Australians and chickenpox vaccine is not available free of charge to anyone.

We have a whole generation of people in Australia who have never been vaccinated against tuberculosis. We have several generations which haven't been vaccinated against smallpox. Vaccination against those diseases is no longer cost efficient, and cost efficiency drives a lot of public health programmes including those related to vaccination.

And what proof do you have that it's the adults? Why don't we see continuous adult pertussis cases then?

There are certain diseases still around (very apparent with pertussis) that you still need vaccines for because a lot of countries don't have vaccines for them, and the effort to wipe them out hasn't been as fierce as with small pox.

Again, where are you getting your information...please

My daughter is one, and no longer had to get most of the vaccines...only MMR. That's it. I got the chickenpox one for her too, but it was not mandatory, and noone has to get it as part of the schedule to get into school or daycare.

The menigitus one was free. All mandatory vaccines are free. the chickenpox one was free too. They are all free here. Even the flu shot for those at risk

And your case only points to how important herd immunity is. Some kids can't get certain vaccines...like yours, although the stats for that is 1 in a million.

[reprise]

Prevalence and incidence of adult pertussis in an urban population (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=96245246)

CONCLUSIONS--Adult pertussis is a significantly greater public health threat than previously suspected. Booster doses of acellular pertussis vaccine after 7 years of age may be an effective approach to minimize transmission and infection.

Epidemiologic Notes and Reports Transmission of Pertussis from Adult to Infant (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00035751.htm)

During 1993, a total of 6586 pertussis cases was reported in the United States, including 675 (10%) cases among persons aged greater than 19 years. However, the total number of cases probably was substantially higher because only an estimated 10% of all pertussis cases are reported (1); underreporting is greater among adults, who often have only a mild cough.

Recommendations are needed for adolescent and adult pertussis immunisation (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11738728&dopt=Abstract)

But there is still a major public health challenge--to deal with the morbidity and economic burden of illness in older children, adolescents and adults. Furthermore, it is these groups that form a major source of infection for non-immunised and partially immunised infants who are at high risk of severe complications.

Adult pertussis common, but are boosters necessary (http://www.infectiousdiseasenews.com/199607/frameset.asp?article=pertuss.asp)

Adult pertussis cannot be controlled by increasing pertussis immunization coverage among children. Pertussis epidemics continue to occur in the United States in two- to five-year cycles, the same as in the pre-vaccine era, said James Cherry, MD, at the recent National Institutes of Health Pertussis Conference here. Cherry is professor of pediatrics, University of California, Los Angeles.

"Immunity, either infection-induced or vaccine-induced, is not long-lasting. ... Endemic adult disease is responsible for cyclic pediatric disease," Cherry said. "Circulation cannot be controlled by our present immunization program.

There was recently a confirmed case of pertussis at my daughter's high school. As she is not immunised, I did contact that public health unit which issued the mandatory notification to parents, and their advice was that it's unusual to detect a case of pertussis in adolescents and adults unless there is reason to believe someone has been exposed. Generally, by the time a doctor would consider testing for pertussis both the infectious period and the period during which antibiotic therapy is appropriate have passed. The reason the notification is issued is primarily so that families with infants who have not yet been fully immunised will be alert for the possibility of their infant contracting the disease from older - previously immunised - siblings who might recently have had what seemed like a severe cold or mild dose of the 'flu.

I'm not sure what you mean by "mandatory immunisation". There is now a financial bonus paid here to parents who complete the recommended vaccination schedule for their children during the first 2 years of life, and children who are not vaccinated against a specific illness will be excluded from attending school or daycare during any outbreak of that illness, but vaccination is not mandatory.

[reprise]

Natioanl Immunisation Program - summary card (http://immunise.health.gov.au/nip/nip.pdf)

The schedule was updated last month to replace the previously recommended ADT vaccination at 15-17 years with DTaP.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
:mad:

Argh!! **turns double purple**

"I'm a homeo-vet, but take this advice for humans..."

***GACK!***
So? Homoeopathy is a purely human discipline. All the "experimental" work (if you can call it that) has been done in humans. All the "theory" relates to humans. The "provings" they do to figure out what symptoms the shaken-up water causes in heathy subjects are all done on humans (a lot of the stuff that's recorded would be impossible to ascertain in animals anyway). No vet has ever been able to tell me how they can transfer this woo-woo to animals. I think they just make it up as they go along.

So the homeo-vet's advice was probaly MORE relevant to humans, for what it was worth. :rolleyes:

To get serious, there are some problems with some vaccines. And any vaccine may cause trouble in the very occasional individual. There are some people who really shouldn't have them, which (as someone else said above) is why it's particularly important to maintain herd immunity. I could go through the particular problems of some veterinary vaccines, but I won't start that here.

One of the reasons is that the anti-vaccination nuts have become so vocal that any discussion of any real problem (however minor) is becoming taboo. Reprise's points are mostly quite sensible, and she's taking a sensible attitude. However, it's getting so that rational medics can't discuss this without either having their words snatched away and paraded as evidence that vaccines are evil and should be banned, or being attacked by the militant rationalists for being "anti-vaccine".

Balance. Vaccines do far more good than harm, but if we censor any discussion of the harm then we're in a poor position to be able to reduce that harm even further.

Rolfe.

[Babylon Sister]

Where's BigFig when you need her?

((unless you've lurked for a while or have been registered for a while you might not understand that reference....too bad.)

[Soapy Sam]

I would add to Dangerous Beliefs' comment;-

"Natural selection at work on the extended phenotype. "
Parental belief structure directly impacting on the health of their offspring. Common enough in humans, but a rather fine example.

[Eos of the Eons]

Yes, I am grateful reprise is not a nut, but the subtle arguments are quite often, as already pointed out, taken and blown to extreme proportions.

And, as indicated, the children getting pertussis are not vaccinated. That is the group that needs the vaccines. Adults with pertussis have less extreme cases because of vaccinations and the fact that it is less harmful to them than babies.

The babies need the vaccines for protection. Booster shots are only good if you intend to wipe out the disease, and that's tough-trying to get older people to get boosters for the sake of younger kids who aren't vaccinated. It's easier if parents just get their kids immunized. If we want to be extra conscientious and get the booster shots when we're older, then someone would have to remind us all, or try catching us in High school. The antivaxxers won't let any of their kids get them-no matter what age, so the disease is still going to hang about.

So just be smart, get your kid the vaccines, and they can survive to get the annoying bouts when they are older that are less likely to kill them. Kids are the ones that pass it on to other kids, so if all kids were vaccinated we wouldn't see the outbreaks.

With the anti-vax movement growing, we're only going to see more and more outbreaks affecting the groups that are most vulnerable - so get the most vulnerable their vaccines.

And yes, we already know that some kids have more severe reactions than others, but I have never ever seen a kid react to vaccines. The reaction rate is way down, the vaccines are safer than ever before.

The reason I brought up mandatory is because it is mandatory to have the vaccination records before your kid is accepted at day care and some other places. I think schools are lessening up on it, I didn't show anyone at my son's school his vaccine records.

We don't have to buy any of them in Canada, and there are no monies for us if our kids are vaccinated.

As long as folks like reprise are talking common sense, I am grateful. It just scares me, and I've seen the small arguments blown up. One parent reads another's concerns. They go online and read all the garbage that is extremely prevalent on the net due to woo woos selling you horror stories to sell you their 'natural' products. Next thing you know, I lose a friend, and my husband never hears from his best friend again. It's sad sad sad.

[reprise]

FWIW, I think it was a mistake to schedule the young adult booster shot for DTaP between 15 and 17 years. It should be scheduled a year or two earlier so that people are still at school when it's due. My observation is that the number of adults who keep their ADT vaccination up to date is quite small, so I'm highly in favour of anything which increases the likelihood of the majority of young adults maintaining herd immunity through the ages 15-25, and I think this is more likely to occur in a situation where "everyone else" is getting their booster shots than in a situation which relies on individual parents remembering that their child is due for boosters and arranging them.

I'm pretty ruthless about my kids having their booster shots - it isn't negotiable - precisely because not doing so poses risks to those who are unable to be vaccinated. Long before rubella vaccine was available to all children, I had my son vaccinated precisely because it seemed very stupid to only vaccinate teenaged girls and leave half of their peers as a potential source of infection for those who couldn't be vaccinated or for whom the vaccine didn't work.

I think that we've become overly complacent about TB and would feel a great deal happier if this vaccination (for all its limitations) was still part of the recommended schedule. I think that many people believe this disease no longer exists and don't realise how quickly it could re-emerge as a significant public health problem.

[neutrino_cannon]

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
Natural Selection at work...

If the tendancy toward woo-wooism were genetic, then this wold be among the ideal selection methods to destroy the responsible genes. Same goes for suicide cults.

It is a tradgedy that children die for the sole reason that their parents turned thier backs on the one, inexpensive thing that might have helped.

There is a reason Salk is one of my personal heroes.

[Eos of the Eons]

Just some stats to share about how important herd immunity is to vaccinated kids as well as unvaccinated

vaccinated children living in areas with high percentages of unvaccinated children were significantly more likely to get one of these infectious diseases than were children in more highly vaccinated areas, says Robert T. Chen of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in Atlanta, an author of the study.

For each 1 percent of kids that go unvaccinated in a county, the researchers calculated that the risk of measles among vaccinated children rose by 60 percent and the risk of pertussis rose by 90 percent.

Bugs left unchecked are extremely infectious, the more of them there are, the more can be spread at a time, etc.

Bear in mind that vaccinated kids get less sever cases, but the bug still prevails to be passed on. Babies under the age of one make up most of the infected with the worst adverse affects and secondary diseases (pneumonia).

Look at it this way...if 67% of the kids that got the disease were vaccinated, and 33% were unvaccinated...you have to look at it like this:

The 33% was 100% of the unvaccinated, and 67% was only 10% of the vaccinated.



www.sciencenews.org/20010818/bob17.asp+pertussis,+news,+unvaccinated&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 (http://www.google.ca/custom?q=cache:ynt5zzlKChMJ:From here

[Prester John]

I think that the media is to blame for a lot of the problem. Unbalanced reporting makes people think that MMR is related to autism and overstates the risk of vaccines. This type of reporting is irresponcible and occurs in much of the mainstream press. (eg Daily Mail 4th oct article proclaiming link between MMR and autism proved, actual reading of the article produced no such conclusion).

People have the right to make their own decision, they should however base that decision on facts. This does not happen, they become scared by doommongering reports. This leads to a fear that an action they take could lead to damaging their child. The damage by inaction seems to be a weaker stimulus, whatever statistics and evidence may say.

[reprise]

I agree that the media has a lot to answer for as far as generating unwarranted concern about the MMR vaccine goes, but that doesn't really explain why those who are concerned about using the MMR vaccine don't have their children given the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines separately.

[Prester John]

In the UK i don't think the vaccines are available as single doses on the NHS. There is no need.

If the vaccines are taken singly, then it takes longer for protection to occur - due to the wait (months) between each vaccine. This has herd immunity issues. Also there is an increased risk of the full course not being taken as it would involve more trips to the doctor. Overall as there is no indication that there is a problem with MMR, to give single single vaccines would be a waste of public money and a bad public health move.

[reprise]

Originally posted by Prester John
In the UK i don't think the vaccines are available as single doses on the NHS. There is no need.

If the vaccines are taken singly, then it takes longer for protection to occur - due to the wait (months) between each vaccine. This has herd immunity issues. Also there is an increased risk of the full course not being taken as it would involve more trips to the doctor. Overall as there is no indication that there is a problem with MMR, to give single single vaccines would be a waste of public money and a bad public health move.

I was questioning why these PARENTS don't have their children immunised against the diseases separately if their concern is about the safety of the combined vaccine. It's perfectly possible to immunise children against those diseases without using the MMR vaccine and while administering the vaccines separately isn't a perfect option it's a hell of a lot better option than the children not being immunised at all.

I don't know if these same parents who reject the MMR vaccine have their children immunised against the other diseases on the recommended schedule, I'd be very interested to find out that information, though.

[Prester John]

Yes, i suggest that in part the relative difficulty of getting the single vaccines may account for not taking the single vaccine route. Also i suggest that many if not most of the anti vaccine sites take a general anti vaccination stance, rather than just anti MMR, thus any parents who look into the issue and become convinced by the anti vaccinators will take up a position against all vaccines. All of nothing ? Just my thoughts.

[Dragon]

Originally posted by Prester John
I think that the media is to blame for a lot of the problem. Unbalanced reporting makes people think that MMR is related to autism and overstates the risk of vaccines. This type of reporting is irresponcible and occurs in much of the mainstream press. (eg Daily Mail 4th oct article proclaiming link between MMR and autism proved, actual reading of the article produced no such conclusion).

People have the right to make their own decision, they should however base that decision on facts. This does not happen, they become scared by doommongering reports. This leads to a fear that an action they take could lead to damaging their child. The damage by inaction seems to be a weaker stimulus, whatever statistics and evidence may say.
You've summed it up - the media and the Daily Mail in particular will have a lot to answer for if there's a measles epidemic in the UK.
IIRC the study that started the controversy purported to show a link between measles disease and autism. If that's the case then, ironically and sadly, those parents who don't have their children vaccinated could end up causing the very thing they are trying to avoid.
I think your last sentence is right on the money - the fear of doing something to damage your child is greater than the fear of harm by inaction.

Oh and by the way, our daughter had an anaphylactic shock with her MMR. We still had all subsequent vaccinations done - but at the local paediatric unit to be as safe as possible. No more problems, thankfully.

[reprise]

Originally posted by Dragon

You've summed it up - the media and the Daily Mail in particular will have a lot to answer for if there's a measles epidemic in the UK.
IIRC the study that started the controversy purported to show a link between measles disease and autism. If that's the case then, ironically and sadly, those parents who don't have their children vaccinated could end up causing the very thing they are trying to avoid.
I think your last sentence is right on the money - the fear of doing something to damage your child is greater than the fear of harm by inaction.

Oh and by the way, our daughter had an anaphylactic shock with her MMR. We still had all subsequent vaccinations done - but at the local paediatric unit to be as safe as possible. No more problems, thankfully.

Did the paediatricians track down which component of the vaccine caused the reaction? Here, they'll usually try to do that because whatever agent caused the reaction might be present in other (non-vaccination) injections.

My recollection of the original study was that it drew unwarranted conclusions. Autism was most commonly diagnosed around the ages of 18 months to 2 years and when parents were asked about the child's general health in the months before the diagnosis they were often mentioning a mild reaction to the MMR vaccine as the only "significant" health related event they could recall. If the arbitrary age for the administration of MMR had been two years rather than 12 months, those children would have already been diagnosed with autism prior to vaccination and the unjustified conclusions wouldn't have been drawn. IIRC, it was studies into the incidence of autism among children who for some reason miss being vaccinated at the recommended age which pretty conclusively demonstrated that the vaccine wasn't responsible.

This kind of wrong cause and effect thinking isn't unusual. I was reading about cerebral palsy research over the weekend, and the current research indicates that in about 90% of cases the condition is present prior to birth - nevertheless, it will take a long time before the general public accepts that CP is only the result of something going wrong during delivery in the minority of cases.

[DangerousBeliefs]

Originally posted by neutrino_cannon


If the tendancy toward woo-wooism were genetic, then this wold be among the ideal selection methods to destroy the responsible genes. Same goes for suicide cults.

It is a tradgedy that children die for the sole reason that their parents turned thier backs on the one, inexpensive thing that might have helped.


Nobody said nature was kind. Stupid people who get themselves (or their children) killed then fail to pass on that genetic material to our gene pool.

[Eos of the Eons]

People looking for separate vaccines think that regular vaccines overwhelm the kids' bodies. That't ridiculous. when a child is born they are immediately exposed to 50 antigens all at once.

no evidence for this that vaccines weaken the immune system. We are born with the capacity for our immune systems to respond to thousands of different antigens eg a newborn baby takes in about 50 antigens with its first breath and parents these days don’t think twice about taking their new baby to a crowded Supermarket or shopping mall - or crowding them in the confined atmosphere of a car with others.

http://www.google.ca/custom?q=cache:Nel2Ko7gK_YJ:www.imac.auckland.ac.n z/new/oldnews/may_00_news.htm+pertussis,+news,+unvaccinated&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
With all the stuff kids come into contact today, a measly three in one vaccines should be the least of their worries then.

Dr. Wakefield started that ridiculous rumor that single vaccines are better.

Where do people get these crazy ideas?
http://www.islamonline.net/English/Science/2002/06/article16.shtml

The fact that surprises most people is that vaccination has never actually been clinically proven to be effective in preventing disease. This is because no researcher has directly exposed test subjects to any disease after being vaccinated, nor may they ethically do so. Lack of clinical studies is what has taken many drugs and even herbs off the market. Vast human experience, as in the case of herbal medicine, is usually discredited in favor of clinical studies (Greene). However, in the case of vaccines the only “proof” presented by vaccine manufacturers is “vast human experience”. In the case of small pox, for instance, the vaccine manufacturers claim that the small pox vaccine wiped out the disease. However, small pox was wiped out in Europe during the same time period where the small pox vaccine had never been used (NVIC).

homeopathic remedies such as thuja or ledum can be given to children before and after vaccination

Note: This article is not intended to advise people against vaccination. The writer of this article was forced to vaccinate her own children but did so with awareness of the risks and followed the safety procedures above. She also delayed vaccination dates, administered homeopathic remedies and took cautionary measures after each child was vaccinated.
:confused: Blatant mistruths and selling remedies. The usual on these anti-vax sites.

[reprise]

I'd still like to see some figures on the compliance rate in respect of other vaccinations by those parents who reject the MMR (as distinct from those who have received medical advice that it's not an appropriate vaccine for their particular child).

I really don't have a problem with making the individual vaccines available separately if by doing so we will get those parents who refuse to have their kids vaccinated with MMR to vaccinate their children rather than not vaccinate them. Simply telling those parents that it isn't necessary to vaccinate separately and that they are stupid isn't getting them to vaccinate their children - which, after all, is the objective.

[Zep]

Just to put a FACT into the mix, I have always had all my vaccinations as a child and youngster, but the one I CANNOT take currently are the influenza shots. The reason is simple - they are cultured on egg albumen (the white) which is a good medium for this. I have a major allergic reaction to albumen, even just eating it, so if I was injected with it I could conceivably be in danger of my life. Result: I have to face all the influenza seasons without these shots.

Bearing that in mind, perhaps some research has been/will be done to see how this type of thing may be a factor in the vaccination reaction situation - it may not be the "active ingredient" that needs looking into at all...

[reprise]

I'm guessing that you were vaccinated before the measles vaccine was released in Australia, Zep. Both the measles and the mumps vaccine are also cultured in egg.

IIRC, the original rabies vaccine was cultured in an animal medium (horse serum?) and thus couldn't be adminstered to some people.

When my daughter received her meningococcal C vaccination last month, ALL the ingredients in the vaccine were listed on the questionnaire. A previous reaction to any one of those ingredients was regarded as a contraindication to immunisation - thus I had to convince the nurses that it was not the diptheria component of the triple antigen vaccine to which my daughter had reacted (diptheria protein is a component of the meningococcal C vaccine) but the pertussis component.

In one of the previous threads I posted a table which indicates which components of which vaccines are thought to be responsible for specific reactions. Very often, it is not the specific antigen of the disease being vaccinated for which is responsible, it's something used during the manufacturing process (such as the culture medium) or something in the medium in which the vaccination is delivered (such as the fillers).

BTW, do you carry an Epipen in case of incidental exposure? Eggs are a common ingredient in lots of things in this world.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Zep
it may not be the "active ingredient" that needs looking into at all...
I think some of the anti-vax lot are blaming a part of the adjuvant -thiomersal, I think - rather than the antigen itself. How that squares with overloading the immune system, I don't know. Fact remains, there's no evidence at all for the effects they're so concerned about.

Rolfe.

[reprise]

Originally posted by Rolfe

I think some of the anti-vax lot are blaming a part of the adjuvant -thiomersal, I think - rather than the antigen itself. How that squares with overloading the immune system, I don't know. Fact remains, there's no evidence at all for the effects they're so concerned about.

Rolfe.

The thiomersal crap was supposedly related to mercury toxicity (http://www.ncirs.usyd.edu.au/facts/f-thiomersal.html). Of course thiomersal was used in vaccines long before the MMR came along and has never been demonstrated to cause the effects claimed by the anti-vaccination lobby.

In sensitive individuals it can cause mildcontact dermatitis (http://www.dermnetnz.org/index.html).

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Rolfe

I think some of the anti-vax lot are blaming a part of the adjuvant -thiomersal, I think - rather than the antigen itself. How that squares with overloading the immune system, I don't know. Fact remains, there's no evidence at all for the effects they're so concerned about.

Rolfe.
Thimersol is no longer used because of the objections, and for the point reprise said earlier...better to remove it for no good health related reason in order that the kids get their vaccines.

It has not been used in children's vaccines since 1991. So that argument is just made by people who are told it is still in the vaccines. It is in the flu vaccine I think.

And I saw a report that people who are allergic to eggs won't get an allergic reaction to vaccines cultured in egg because it would take thousands more than amount that you find in vaccines to cause the reaction. You can still avoid the flu vaccine just in case though, unless you are like 89 and the flu is sure to kill you.

I'm allergic to eggs and have never reacted to any vaccine.

Just to add that I don't think parents who are misinformed are stupid, it's the people that are making up the misinformation that are horrible-lying to sell their products and services. It's unethical to say coca cola is poisonous and that you should therefore drink pepsi instead. But people saying vaccines are harmful and naturopathic remedies are the only way to go, get away with it. Mostly just on the internet though and in mediums (meetings) where they can get away with saying whatever they want. They can't publish their claims outside the internet through any legitimate medium, because they aren't legitimate claims.

It's also frustrating that parents still believe misinformation once they are paranoid and no longer believe any truths over mistruths.

These parents need patience and understanding. I'm not the one trying to convince misinformed parents of the truth, I'm just frustrated at any mistruths that people come up with. I obviously can't help them, who am I?

The only thing that can be done is stopping the homeopaths and naturopaths or horrible people like Young from making their claims. Yet they are not being stopped. I feel they all ought to go to jail for the horrible rumors and accusations they make against vaccines. Hilary Butler, Viera Sheibner, Wakefield. etc is who I have a beef with. I can't do anything to stop them, and I wish someone else could.


It's not the parents who are dumb or stupid or whatever. It's the people telling parents things that aren't true that need to be discredited at every opportunity.

Unless every parent takes a microbiology course and others on anatomy-how will they know who to believe?

If the misinformation wasn't out there, then parents wouldn't getting scared and turning away from the 'mainstream'. Mainstream is now a dirty word meaning 'having an agenda' and making money from harming your kids. Drug companies and doctors are now the bad guys.

So a doctor can't educate the parents, it will make parents more convinced of the 'mainstream conspiracy'.

Who can educate them? Noone. So you can only stop the misinformation and stop parents from being scared and running to quacks for 'help'. If there are no quacks, there is no misinformation.

I'm only ever trying to jump all over misinformation. I hate it. I also hate the origins of the misinformation because I can do nothing to stop it. I can't charge Scheibner for her mistruths in her books can I? She is in a different country. I can't do anything about Young or Wakefield other than to point out the ridiculous claims they make are untrue.

It sucks being unable to stomp out the crap that is said constantly over the net and spreading like a horrible virus.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons

And I saw a report that people who are allergic to eggs won't get an allergic reaction to vaccines cultured in egg because it would take thousands more than amount that you find in vaccines to cause the reaction. You can still avoid the flu vaccine just in case though, unless you are like 89 and the flu is sure to kill you.

I'm allergic to eggs and have never reacted to any vaccine.
I didn't even know about the flu vax cultured on egg until seconds before I was to get the shot some years ago. The doctor giving it asked me VERY casually as he aimed the hypo at my arm, "You're not allergic to eggs, are you." When I said "Yes" he froze, then moved the hypo away. "Then you can't have this, or you will get allergic shock, far worse than eating egg, because it would be in your whole bloodtream, not just your gut where it can be expelled." So I have never had a flu shot.

However I have had the full course of other vaccinations, plus smallpox and cholera vaccinations for when I lived in the tropics when younger. No adverse effects at all.

[eowyn]

My sister had her kids vaccinated, but the first vaccinations are not till the babies are about six weeks I think.

A few years ago, my 3 week old niece was in the Children's hospital. My sister was holding her friend's two year old on her lap when the doctor gave the diagnosis of whooping cough.

The friend was one who hadn't believed in vaccinations. She had her 2 yo child vaccinated the very next day.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Zep
I didn't even know about the flu vax cultured on egg until seconds before I was to get the shot some years ago. The doctor giving it asked me VERY casually as he aimed the hypo at my arm, "You're not allergic to eggs, are you." When I said "Yes" he froze, then moved the hypo away. "Then you can't have this, or you will get allergic shock, far worse than eating egg, because it would be in your whole bloodtream, not just your gut where it can be expelled." So I have never had a flu shot.

However I have had the full course of other vaccinations, plus smallpox and cholera vaccinations for when I lived in the tropics when younger. No adverse effects at all.

My doctor wouldn't let me get the flu shot either. I think their main concern is getting sued though :D

[Zep]

This happened for me in the late 1970's - the flu shots were new then.

In Australia, until recently, doctors were considered "gods" and could do no wrong, so sueing them for negligence or whatever was VERY rare at that time. And it's an Australian custom, especially by doctors, to call things as they are with some candour. No beating about the bush, as we say. There will be sympathy from your doctor, but you will be left in no doubt about his/her honest diagnosis. This sort of tends to negate any tendency to sue them.

Anyway, subsequent doctors have confirmed on many occasions that I still should not have a flu shot for that reason.

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by eowyn
My sister had her kids vaccinated, but the first vaccinations are not till the babies are about six weeks I think.

A few years ago, my 3 week old niece was in the Children's hospital. My sister was holding her friend's two year old on her lap when the doctor gave the diagnosis of whooping cough.

The friend was one who hadn't believed in vaccinations. She had her 2 yo child vaccinated the very next day.


I understand there is an article on this very topic (whooping cough vaccinations) in an upcoming issue of Skeptical Inquirer. It could be as early as the Jan/Feb 2004 issue. :cool:

Cheers,

[Eos of the Eons]

I'll be looking for that article.


Originally posted by Zep
This happened for me in the late 1970's - the flu shots were new then.

In Australia, until recently, doctors were considered "gods" and could do no wrong, so sueing them for negligence or whatever was VERY rare at that time. And it's an Australian custom, especially by doctors, to call things as they are with some candour. No beating about the bush, as we say. There will be sympathy from your doctor, but you will be left in no doubt about his/her honest diagnosis. This sort of tends to negate any tendency to sue them.

Anyway, subsequent doctors have confirmed on many occasions that I still should not have a flu shot for that reason.


Yeah, everyone has faults. That's why second opinions (which you got) are advised. I'll try to find the article. Maybe the author is not credible.

http://www.marshfieldclinic.org/cattails/00/sepoct/eggallergy.asp


Each year the flu vaccine changes to help prevent specific strains of flu. Therefore, the amount of egg in the vaccine also may change. Dr. Huftel and other Marshfield Clinic allergists can do a skin test to determine if a patient reacts to the specific flu vaccine. If the skin test is negative, it's easy to administer the vaccine, he said. Other patients may be given a small portion of the vaccine and watched for any sign of reaction. If all goes well, they can receive the balance of the inoculation, Dr. Huftel said.

Sounds good, I hope the skin test can be done easily enough.

[reprise]

Zep, the reason why doctors try to avoid giving people who are severely allergic to eggs vaccines which have been cultured in egg is partly because each exposure tends to increase sensitivity. While your doctor can handle any reaction you have to the vaccine with antihistamines and adrenaline, the reaction itself will make you more sensitive to your next exposure to eggs - an exposure which could very well occur accidentally and outside of a medical environment.

So a doctor might well decide that it's worth giving you a vaccine which you will only need to receive once or twice in order to gain longterm immunity from a specific disease but decide against administering a vaccine like the 'flu vaccine which may increase your sensitivity while only offering short-term protection.

It's similar to the reason why doctors are reluctant to administer blood tranfusions except in an emergency - each transfusion increases the risk transfusion reaction.

[Eos of the Eons]

That's very true. I'm one of the lucky ones where the severity of the reaction is determined by how much I ingest. I can eat an egg now and get a rash. I can eat 10 eggs and get the worst case of hives.

My reaction doesn't get worse each time I eat egg though. I think because I'm lucky to have a skin reaction and not one like asthma. My breathing has never been affected that much. The airborne ones are the ones I have to watch out for there.

I should see about getting the flu shot. None of my allergies are deadly...except maybe to Sulfa. I'm not willing to go there again.